5. One Way In, One Way Out

To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value and fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real. Lots of firms throw a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day. But on Vanguard, a Vanguard institutional quality isn't a tagline.

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go see the record for yourself at Vanguard.com/audio. That's Vanguard.com/audio. All investing in subject to risk Vanguard marketing corporation distributor. When a birthday party in suburban San Jose turns deadly, 18-year-old identical twins are arrested for suspected murder.

One of them spends nearly two years in jail before the truth comes out. Authorities locked up the wrong twin. How could one brother let his twin take the fall?

“And why would the other give up his freedom for a crime he didn't commit?”

Blood will tell is a modern-day Shakespearean saga about what we're willing to sacrifice for the people we love and whether our most tragic mistakes are worthy of redemption. Listen to Blood will tell a new series from audible and campsite media, wherever you get your podcasts.

You know Roll Doll, he thought a bully Wonka in the BFG, but does you know he was a spy? In the new podcast, the secret world of Roll Doll, I'll tell you that story, and much, much more. What?

You probably won't believe it either. Was this before he wrote his stories? I'd must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, it was a spy.

Listen to the secret world of Roll Doll, on the I-Hart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Bloomberg audio studios. Podcasts, radio, news. A quick note, this is the fifth episode of this series.

If you haven't listened to the previous episodes, we recommend going back and listening in order. Thanks. About five months after GE Engineer David John agreed to work with the FBI, he was on a plane with Agent Mike Riegel, heading for Europe.

It's stressful. He's like, I'm taking a huge risk. I'm away from my family, I'm in a foreign country, I'm doing some weird thing against the Chinese government. And we had to make a clear dome,

look, you're never going to meet with him.

Again, this is just to get him in the country. The mission? A rest, Xu Yan Jun. A Chinese intelligence officer. This is something we've never, ever done before.

“Can we actually get this guy out of China so we can get our hands on him?”

I was skeptical that it would work out. Like, right, we're going to get a Chinese intelligence officer. We're going to bring him back from China and we're going to try and we're like, right. At this point, I have done some crazy things. I've convinced people way more important to me.

The FBI, this is going to work. It has to work. I mean, there's lots of times we try to do international arrests and they just don't work. Something happened, someone gets tipped off. Someone gets cold feet, doesn't show up.

I still had that faith, but deep down you're like, man,

if this breaks bad on me, I'm never going to live this down.

From Bloomberg News and I Heart Podcasts, this is the sixth bureau. I'm Jordan Robertson and I'm Drake Bennett. So we were in central Brussels when David and Mike landed. They met up with Bradley. We were based out of my hotel room in the top floor of a 16th century building.

Deciding on Brussels is the site of the operation had been a process. Shu had agreed to meet David and Europe before the FBI had even figured out which country would be willing to help them. I literally called and said, all right, here's my 32nd spiel. I have an MSS officer.

He's willing to come to Europe. Who's going to say yes to this? Not everyone. The FBI needed to find a country that checked a bunch of boxes.

“One, would they let the FBI run an operation there?”

Two, would they help with the arrest? Three, could they move quickly? And four, were they willing to detain an extra-dite shoe even at the cost of angering China?

And we ultimately settled on the Belgians.

So up on the top floor of the hotel, in one small room, it's Bradley, Mike, David, and FBI translator, and their Belgian Sheper room. We had the most junior counter-terrorism officer from Belgian pharaoh police assigned us.

You could tell she has been used, but she was along for the ride.

Things got claustrophobic.

“The ceiling was low, it was hot, and sometimes it didn't smell great.”

You know, it's fragrant, five of us are crammed into this room, spending most of our day on the phone with Shu trying to affect the next pivot in the operation. You're there, but there's still one more pivot. Correct. Because Shu thinks David's in Paris for a work trip,

and that helped meet him in Amsterdam, Shu had even suggested a specific spot. Oddly, a laser tag venue called LaserGaming. But that wasn't going to happen. Since Belgium is the country that said yes to this operation.

So, on March 29, 2018, two days before she was supposed to leave China, David sends him a message. The trip to France is going pretty smoothly. However, my worst schedule has been changed. My boss made me travel to the sub branch of Safran in Belgium,

because we need to give him some technical help with the June project. That said, I will not be able to make it to Amsterdam this Saturday. To pivot, but I can meet you at a hotel in Brussels this Sunday afternoon. If I was on that other end, I would be thanking you. You don't tell me what to do, I tell you what to do.

I'm the handler, you're the informant. He pushed back hard. He yelled at us. I have permission from the Chinese government to travel to France. I have permission from the Chinese government to travel in the Netherlands.

I don't have permission to go to Blankety Blank, Belgium. And, of course, David had to respond in real time. As the conversations or the texts are happening, our linguists translating as quickly as possible again so that Michael Huy can point. Say that. Say that. Say that. Say that.

It was a sensitive moment. She was still pushing for the meeting to happen in the Netherlands. That Sunday. You can definitely make it in one day.

“Why don't you book your train and we can meet somewhere near the train station?”

But the Netherlands wasn't going to work for the FBI. So David needed a new excuse for why he couldn't even take a day trip. Why he had to stay in Brussels. We spent hours talking about what we could say to make it as believable as possible. We've filmed a quarter of one of these notebooks with the different,

or if we said this with that work, and someone would say, "I don't think it's going to work because of this and we could rip it out and we'd start again." In the end, they went with their go-to excuse. We played on things that we knew had to work before. The big bad boss.

Sunday is Easter. My boss takes it very seriously. Well, the boss feels so guilty about making us travel on the holiday weekend. That he's going to take us out for an Easter brunch. He's reserved in Easter lunch for the traveling team

and asked us to please attend. And if I don't show up, that's going to look really bad. And I can't disappoint my boss, so I can't leave Brussels. This is why I'll have time to meet you here on Sunday afternoon, but I don't have time to travel to other cities.

You know, we're so sorry we can't help it. This is just a situation. I'll be back in six months or a year, or whenever the next time I'm going to be back here, maybe we can do it then. Well, that was unacceptable.

Had to happen now.

So she finally can see it's he agrees to amading in Brussels.

He's going to physically come.

“Why do you think he ultimately agrees to come to Belgium?”

There was so much back and forth, but eventually he agrees. I think the prize was too much. I mean, the prize was something he couldn't pass up, right? He's looking at large amounts of GE research that helps Chinese commercial aviation cut time off saves the money, gives them a jump.

So if you're as you and you bring in this kind of stuff, you're basically saying I'm the guy that did it. The day before his trip, shoe messages his wife. I put a USB drive in the eyeglass box in the middle of the bookcase. It contains some encrypted documents.

If something happens, someone will come to you and tell you the password. I mean, I've deployed more than 40 times often. I don't tell anyone where I'm going. I can't tell anyone where I'm going.

But to add the comment on if something goes wrong, I've never done that.

And the reaction that his wife had was what you would expect. Oh my god, don't scare me like this. It seems like he had some doubts at that point. He did, but when you talk about the risk reward, what we were offering, what we were claiming that we were going to provide was clearly worth the risk. I will never know if he was ordered or chose to go,

On March 31st, shoe arrives in Amsterdam and route to Belgium.

Photos pulled from airport security cameras showing him coming through customs. He's wearing a backpack, has a giant suitcase, and has dressed in all black. And he's not alone. He's with a colleague. In the photos, you can see shoe talking on his phone. He's on the phone with us. Shoes talking to David about where to meet in Brussels.

So I grabbed Ruth, our Belgian colleague, who was with us,

“who very begrudgingly, I think she slept on the floor then.”

I didn't know where we were looking at a sleeping bag or something. And I grabbed her and I said, okay, we need to find a meeting location.

We've gotten too far. I can't let shoe tell me where we're going to meet.

And we just are walking around, like tourists. And as I'm walking around, central Brussels, I come across Le Ponta Coutillin. It's coffee shop. The chain, Le Pont Coutillin, in Le Gallaudiu, St. Hubeau. This particular location was in a 19th-century shopping center with a high-arched glass ceiling,

lined with elegant shops. It's completely in case that's the most beautiful architecture you can imagine. And I have slept in a couple of days. I'm tired. And I see this coffee shop. And I say, this is just like that coffee shop in the opening scene of Tinker Taylor's

“Ultra Spy. We're quintessential John Luckerae spy story.”

I'd like watching spy movies, not that my life resembles a spy movie in any way shape or form. But I went, this works. This is the spot. So that's the fun reason I picked it. The operational reason was that I was bringing him into a funnel, one way in, one way out. You can't go through the back of these stores. I asked the brunt desk and recommended a coffee shop nearby. I woke around and found a coffee shop,

which is very close to my hotel. So basically, I am walking my guy into a pedestrian-only space.

He can't drive up, he can't surveil unless he's on foot, one way in, one way out. They have quiet seating on the second floor. Then we said we were going to be on the second floor of the coffee shop. That means he had to go into the coffee shop, fatal funnel number two. Then he had to go up stairs, fatal funnel number three, to put him in such a tight, low-cal, there's no way that we could miss him.

“So I'm bringing him into a fatal funnel into a fatal funnel, in a fatal funnel.”

Send me the name of the coffee shop. Coffee shop is inside of the gallery room. I'll say, well, I took a picture for reference. Okay, I'll let you know when I'm about to be there. I'll be checking which hat at all times tomorrow. Okay, keep in touch. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk

bonds for a minute. Capturing value and fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real. Lots of firms throw a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day. But on Vanguard, a Vanguard institutional quality isn't a tagline. It's a commitment to your clients. We're talking top-grade products across the board of over 80 bond funds, actively managed by a 200-person global squad of sector specialists, analysts, and traders.

These folks live in breathe fixed income. So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself at Vanguard.com/audio. That's Vanguard.com/audio. All investing in subject to risk Vanguard marketing corporation distributor. Hello, I'm Stephen Carroll. I'm in Brussels for many of Europe's biggest decisions get made. And I'm Caroline Hepkin in London with the hosts

of the Blue Bay Day Break York podcast. We're a barely every week day keeping an eye on what's happening across Europe and around the world. We do it early so the news is fresh, not recycled, and so you know what actually matters as the day gets going. From Brussels, I'm following the politics, policy, and the people shaping the European Union right now. And from London, I'm looking at what all that means for markets, money, and the wider economy. We've got reporters

across Europe and around the globe feeding in as stories break. So whether it's geopolitics, energy, tackle markets, you're hearing it while it happens. It's smart, calm, and to the point. And it fits into your morning. You can find new episodes of the Bloomberg Day Break Europe podcast by 7 a.m. in Dublin or 8 a.m. in Brussels, Berlin, and Paris. On Apple Spotify, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, gorgeous. It's Lala Kent. Post of

untraditionally Lala. My days of filling up cups at Sir may be over, but I'm still loving life in the valley. Life on the other side of the hill is giving grown-up vibes, but over here on my podcast untraditionally Lala. I'm still that Lala, you either love or love to hate. It's unruly. It's unafraid. It's untraditionally Lala. Listen to untraditionally Lala on the iHeart Radio app,

Easter Sunday dawns. David John and Mike Riegel go to a lavish Easter brunch.

“A fake one staged by the FBI. They made a reservation at the Hotel Metropol in Brussels. It had a”

very fine five-course brunch. We basically took every FBI resources in in Brussels and we had them

become the GE Aviation Team. Remember, this Easter brunch was the reason David told Xu he couldn't leave Brussels. And it was entirely made up, but they had to have one anyway. In case the MSS was watching. We had a guy sort of walk around like he was the boss, right? Because if they were watching, we needed to have the big bad boss have a face, right? I didn't know what the MSS was going to do in this situation. Meanwhile, across the city, dozens of police

officers are out looking for Xu. We had surveillance out everywhere. Trying to make sure these guys are going to show up. They go to the train stations, assuming he's taken a train in from Amsterdam. But Xu is in a car, a dark-colored Jaguar. He's being showfured to Brussels by the personal driver of the Chinese ambassador to the Netherlands. They were delivered for a

“clandestine meeting in the ambassador's car. Just like that, wash over for a second. That's how”

confident the MSS were in their ability to operate within the EU. I've never been picked up by

anybody at any foreign airport ever for the FBI, let alone get to ride around in the ambassador's Jaguar. Bradley is at the Belgian federal police headquarters in their command center. I remember fairly early in the morning, say maybe eight thirty or nine, the head Belgian prosecutor comes into this base. And very professionally, but in a flurry. Like, is this real? Is this actually happening? And they said, we actually think it is. We think this is going to go down. And she's the one

who sat down and said, okay, let's do this. And that's how the morning started. Bradley had spent months running this operation. But now it was Belgian police and Belgian prosecutors who were calling the shots. And Bradley was relegated to the sideline.

“We don't get to participate in the arrests. We're not law enforcement officers in those countries.”

This is a Belgian operation. That was made abundantly clear. So when they would talk to me, they would speak English. But then when they were speaking to each other, they were speaking in French. And I speak enough French to be dangerous. And they kept saying the FBI needs the meeting to happen before we can affect the arrest. I said, no, no. And I said, no, if you see him, police would love a God arrest him. So they were under the impression that the target had to meet with the engineer.

Correct. In order to, like, we needed that to happen for the arrest to be valid. And I said, no, no. And they all stop and they turn and they tilt their heads. I mean, realizing I've been listening to their conversations all morning, immediately switching a flamish. And I have no idea what is happening for the rest of the day. They kept talking amongst themselves until us walk on the radio. And the Belgian surveillance commander said to me, we think we see him. It's 11 o'clock in the morning,

11 o'clock in the morning. After all the negotiations in all the pivots, she was there in Brussels. And he was early. The meeting wasn't until that afternoon at three. shoe and his colleague shoe hang were there to case the meeting spot. And Bradley was done being patient. Please, just arrest him. I couldn't imagine sitting in this space before more hours like this. Because I control none of this. Like, I'm, I'm an observer at best. Just please, please, please arrest him.

And then she comes back, oh, we lost him. I'm thinking, oh, no. They tell you they lost him. What goes through your mind at that point? I just want to get it over with. I just needed that end. Then, two hours later, she was back. He texted David. We're here. Let me know when you're done eating. I'll meet you in front of the shop. Standing in front of the cafe, shoe raised his phone to snap a picture of it. Bradley has that photo. He shows it to us.

And you'll notice this gentleman here the reason he's a little blurry is what happens in about the next

second is for very large, very muscular Belgian slot operators. Walk up plain clothes. They pick up

shoe and jean jean and jean hanged by their elbows and start walking away with them through the crowd. Really? So this is literally his last second of freedom. There's a much of squawking on the radio from the surveillance commander. Swat, Commander's radio starts squawking and I said, what just happened? And she starts closing up her logbooks and stuff and says, it's Ovel. We just elested him. And in my head, I think this is the

about than this. And what a way for it to end. It's Ovel. We elested him. One of the Belgian police inspectors who was kind of a, as a more senior guy and he's, you know, kind of a big dude with the white beard. I just gave him a huge hug. There's like a

“big bear hug. And I think he was like, you know, with no Americans did this kind of stuff.”

Because it was like the stress was over. Later than afternoon, the FBI has David sent a couple more messages to shoe. They also have them call shoes phone. They wanted to look like David's got nothing to do with shoe's arrest, and that he's just their waiting for him at the coffee shop. I'm here now. Are you here? You know, just in case anyone else from the MSS is paying attention.

I've been waiting for almost an hour and still haven't seen you. You wouldn't even pick up the phone. Sorry. I have to head back to prepare for tomorrow's meeting. With that final message, the relationship between shoe and June and David John came to an end. A relationship built on lies and manipulation. It's safe to say they both regretted it.

“I remember getting a phone call on Easter Sunday morning early and running up to my third”

floor to take the phone call away from my kids. This is Emily Gladfeltar, a federal prosecutor on the case. And they were like, they've got him. It took me a few minutes to process. I was like, what, wait, he's arrested. It was like, wow, I, I surreal. I just cannot believe here we are. When they've got him to the station, talk to him. He refused to talk to him. Tim Mangan, another federal prosecutor on the case. He pretty clearly said, I want to try and

use the attorney. I'm not going to speak with you. There was an arrest warrant there. Some other documentation they asked him to sign. He refused to sign it. The two MSS officers were now in the custody of the Belgian police. On shoe hang, the police found

“two phones and envelopes of cash. $7,000 and nearly $8,000 euros. On one of the phones,”

they found a bunch of pictures of David John and of the G engineer's family. These were sort of social media pictures, but he had a large collection of them. If I came to talk to one of you guys,

let's say we just met once and I said, I'd like you to provide me x, y, and say, and I basically

have on my phone pictures of your whole family, right? It would freak you out. It's unnerving. I mean, this was like many, many, many photos of this guy and his family. Yes. You can sort of use it as leverage to keep them working with the intelligence officer, and we thought he was sort of in preparation from going from the carrot to the stick. shoe hang wasn't part of the arrest warrant, so he was released after a couple of hours.

When authorities went to access the content of his second phone, there was nothing there. It had been remotely white. shoe yen june was also carrying two phones. One was a Huawei phone

with a password of I kid you not shoe yen june 1980. The second was the iPhone which he had used

to so diligently document his life for years. He was jailed in Brussels while the Chinese government hired a law firm to fight the extradition, but shoe pursued other avenues. There was a bizarre escape attempt. A jailbreak. shoe had tried to reach out to another inmate and offered money if the person could help him escape. 50,000 euros. But it was spoiled. I mean, this whole investigation in case seemed like it was out of a movie at times, and that was just like another chapter. That

of course, you know, there was going to be an escape plan. Six months after his arrest, shoe's extradition was approved by a Belgian court. That meant it was time for Bradley and Mike

to fly back to get him and bring him to the US for trial. You know, we basically flew on the

director's plane over there. The FBI director's personal jet. This is kind of a once in a career type thing, right? I'm a lonely young guy from Southern Ohio and this is, I mean, for some executives, this would be like, oh, what's the big deal to me? It's kind of like, well, there's a couch, what's this guy? I mean, to me, it's me, you know, to me, it's neat. I'm used to commercial, just I'm a guy that's back in coach, you know, I'm going through Atlanta and, you know, walk

and you're in Belgium. It was a beautiful day. It was October. So it wasn't hot. It was most

just a beautiful day. Blue skies, Puffy clouds. We are at a private terminal on the grounds of the Russell's International Airport where our plane has been parked. A motorcade arrives and drives onto the tarmac right up to the plane. They get out. Their long rifles are out. It's not just like a couple of dudes and suits. I mean, these are some legit luck and like, seal team six luck and type dudes. They open the door to the Volvo Station wagon and Audi Pops. He's just a medium-build

Chinese gentleman. He doesn't stand out in any crazy way. He's handcuffed in the European system, at least in the Belgian system. They don't wear prison guard. They wear civilian clothes. So he had sneakers on a pair of jeans, a button down and a sweater. But not for long. As part of the transfer, Bradley makes shoe change into a striped jail uniform. He's brought from Ohio. I let him know that we're gonna shackle him at the feet, at the waist and at his wrists and he's gonna fly back

to the United States that way. And when we get him on the plane is not combative, but also not cool

operative. The decision was made to basically just, you know, ask him the booking questions.

“Name, date of birth, address, telephone number, this kind of stuff. I think Aelius was one of these”

standard booking questions is Aelius. But yeah, he did not like the questions. He declined to answer some of them or refused to answer some of them. shoe was charged with conspiring and attempting to commit economic espionage and steel trade secrets. He arrived in Ohio and was sent to a federal detention center to wait his trial. It was a very long way, three years. For much of that time, shoe was confined to his 70 square foot jail cell alone for 23 hours a day. He communicated

with his wife and family through letters, which were often held up for months by translation protocols. Then, in October 2021, shoe found himself as a defendant in an American courtroom.

A scenario he probably never imagined.

The news doesn't stop on the weekends. Context changes constantly. And now, Bloomberg is the place to stay on top of it all. Hi, I'm David Gurra. Join us every Saturday and Sunday for the new Bloomberg this weekend. I'm Christina Rafini. We'll bring you the latest headlines in depth analysis and big interviews. All the stories that hit home on your days off. And I'm Lisa Mateo. Watch and listen to Bloomberg this weekend for thoughtful, enlightening

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Join us as soon as you wake up and bring us with you wherever you're weekend plans take you. Watch us on Bloomberg Television, listen on Bloomberg Radio, stream the show live on the Bloomberg Business App, or listen to the podcast. That's Bloomberg this weekend. Saturdays and Sundays starting at 7am Eastern. Make us part of your weekend routine on Bloomberg Television, radio, and wherever you get your podcasts. You know, Roll Doll, he thought I'd really want

him and the BFG, but did you know he was a spy? In the new podcast, the Secret World of Roll Doll. I'll tell you that story, and much, much more. What? You probably won't believe it either. Was this before you wrote his stories? I'd must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, it was a spy. Listen to the Secret World of Roll Doll on the iHeart Radio App, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Anna Navarro, and I'm a new podcast,

believe with Anna Navarro. I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world, because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on. I'm talking to people like Julie Cape Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again. For decades and decades and decades, by local law enforcement,

by federal law enforcement, by administration, after administration. They just this

“department through, I think we counted for presidential administrations, failed these victims.”

Listen to Bleep with Anna Navarro, as part of the Michael Duda podcast, that one.

When shoes trial finally got underway, the pandemic was still raging.

“It is Jerry Box was covered in plexiglass, the Whitney standhead plexiglass, the judges,”

Bench had plexiglass, we all wore masks. This is Paul Christian, a local TV investigative reporter who covered the trial. As someone who regularly covers the courts, she knows all the lawyers and took note of shoes. He had a whole squad from Taft, an elite Cincinnati firm. As a reporter, one of the first things you look out when you have a defendant is who their lawyer is, and if they have a firm like Taft, somebody's paying for it. Because it's too expensive for an

average person to pay for this. I mean, Ralph Conan probably bills at six to seven hundred dollars an

hour, and they had six seven people on their legal team in the courtroom. I mean, that's thousands of dollars an hour. shoes lawyers declined repeated requests to speak to us and the trial wasn't recorded, but we do have the transcripts. The defense didn't dispute that she worked for the MSS. He's a recruiter. Nobody's ever hidden from that. He's affiliated and works for the MSS. Or that shoe was trying to cultivate aviation experts working outside China. Sure, he was trying to

get them to share their expertise. Sure, he paid them and wind them and dine to them. And what is that proof exactly? But they argued that the information she was trying so hard to get wasn't technically trade secrets. Believe what you will about the government's evidence in this case, ladies and gentlemen, but there's no way that you can conclude beyond a reasonable doubt

“that our client has intended to steal trade secret information. This case is about a man”

who was caught up in a controversy between the U.S. and China. Over China's advancing competency and abilities technologically. The U.S. was overreaching, the U.S. just didn't want China to have any technology, so they're just being spiteful. That was their main argument, but they were up against the law. Because how can you argue with what you said on a recorded line or what you wrote in a text message on your phone or the photos you took. It's tough.

The trial stretched over two and a half weeks. David John testified. So did the Honeywell engineer Arthur Gow, so did folks from GE and a chief inspector from the Belgian federal police. Bradley was on the stand for three days. The last witness was James Olson. He was the

prosecution's expert on espionage. I've never seen a jury in a judge lean in the way they did

with Jim Olson. I mean, it was surreal. The defense in cross-examining James Olson tried to use his own spy career against him. There was a moment in his cross-examination where they accused him of lying. So, you know, you've been undercover and you've not been honest with your family or your friends and whatnot. And he said something like, and I would do it again for this country.

“And it felt like a moment where it was like the flag should be behind him. And you should be hearing”

the national anthem. And it was like you could hear a pin drop. It was amazing. And then on redirect, I went up and asked, if you'd been caught, what would have happened? And he kind of looks at me and then he looks over as you and he goes, I'd be right there and points right as you. She was shooting daggers at me in his eyes. What I looked at him, I could not help with having a feeling of he's really not much different from me.

He's serving his country. I serve my country. He's a spy. I was a spy. He lived undercover. I lived undercover. He's doing what he's believing is right. I did what I believe was right. How are we any different? And so I had kind of a momentary pain that we could easily be trading places. I could be sitting in a trial being convicted of espionage. If I'd been caught, and the only real difference between Xu and me was that he got caught, and I did.

I was not totally unaware of the human dimension of what we were doing, potentially

But I was there to convict him. This was the only time in our history that we had

an MSS staff officer in a courtroom facing conviction in prison in the United States. And this was a message that I wanted to send to China. The deliberation process, if I recall, took more than a day. That was a really stressful time. I remember wandering around downtown a couple days waiting for this verdict and just thinking, "What do we do if this doesn't come out our way?" And when I followed a tremendous amount of

weight on our shoulders, we were concerned that, you know, if we, if we fell short in our duty,

that we would cause some sort of international incident.

The verdict comes back and the entire courtroom is silent. You just sit and wait for these words. There's so much anticipation. And he was found guilty of everything. We reached out to China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs about the case back in 2022, after the verdict came out. And they said, "The accusations by the US are completely fabricated. We demand the US handle the case in a fair manner and ensure the legitimate rights of Chinese citizens."

When we reached out to them again this year, they referred us to previous statements. A year after the trial, Schuss sentence came down. He was given 20 years. I thought this U.S. was pretty strong. This is Alan Kohler, former head of counterintelligence at the FBI. So, it gets someone 20 years like that. That's a huge hit for anybody who commits economic espionage. You know, 20 months is more likely the type of sentence that we get.

“But I think there were some pretty serious aggravating factors.”

The type of information he stole, the breadth of the effort that he was being charged with, and the sort of like co-conspirators that were wrapped up in it. All of that, plus in being a Chinese intelligence officer, I think it just worked against them in this matter. Schuss didn't speak at all during his trial. But at the sentencing hearing, he did. He spoke through a translator. Here's some of what he said that day.

All of this took place within the Grand Countax of the Traywall between the U.S. and the China. All the U.S. government has done is to use the legal system as a weapon in the war it wages to further its political agenda. That has nothing to do with respect and justice. Your honor, I'm just an ordinary Chinese citizen who knows nothing about politics.

“No, do I know anything about secrets? Why on earth did I get caught into this incredible legal battle?”

Thus, this whole case is merely a political force directed and acted out by the U.S. government for self-aggrandizement. It is like the thief who demands that the thief be caught. Regardless of what the sentence may be, I will appeal this case because I stand by my innocence. Thank you. Shoe did appeal, but he lost. In August 2024, a federal appeals court of held his conviction in sentence.

But Shoe's saga didn't end with that prison sentence. In two weeks, we'll have the final episode of our series, where Shoe gets an unlikely lifeline. I don't think China really had a playbook for how to handle this. You just told me about how he was, quote unquote, "rescued."

“I'll never forget the site nor the sound of the FBI agents who”

banged on the door and said, "FBI opened the door and barged straight in." You want to listen Shoe in, Juma? That's coming up on March 20th. Don't miss it. I'm Francis Lacquat and award-winning journalist, and I've got a new podcast. Leaders was Francine Lacquat from Bloomberg Podcasts. I've interviewed everyone from heads of state

to fashion icons about the news of the moment, but I've always been curious who are these people

And poor decision is always better than no decision. Listen to new episodes every other Monday.

Follow leaders with Francine Lacquat wherever you get your podcasts.

“You know Roll-Dall. He thought of Willy Wonka in the BFG, but did you know he was a spy?”

In the new podcast, the secret world of Roll-Dall. I'll tell you that story and much, much more.

What? You probably won't believe it either.

“Was this before he wrote his stories? I'd must have been.”

Okay, I don't think that's true.

I'm telling you. Okay, I was a spy.

“Listen to the secret world of Roll-Dall. On the I-Hart Radio app,”

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.