EXCLUSIVE: How Michael Wolff Is Trying to Cash In on His Epstein Tapes

This is the music for you.

One of those dots, we've been messaging all morning because I'm going to break some news on the show, so for everybody who's on the show, like stay tuned. I'm going to explain to you exactly how Michael is still actively trying to monetize those tapes that he's holding on to, by the way, those hundreds of hours of tapes, which would really reveal the true extent of his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein.

“Welcome back to Terra, Paul Mary Show. Michael Wolf wants you to believe he was documenting Jeffrey Epstein, but what if he was actually protecting him?”

For nearly two decades, Wolf wasn't just reporting on Epstein, newly uncovered emails in the Epstein files show how he was helping him manage the scandals by discrediting survivors, burying the reporting that existed. Revealing at Jeffrey Epstein was in fact the sex offender. He was trying to help him shape media narratives gave him advice offered him access to high-powered media executives who could help bury the story and he tried to rehabilitate his image after jail. Now, Wolf is trying to position himself as the man exposing the devil as he likes to call him, but there's a question hanging over all of this. If these tapes that Wolf is holding on to, 100 hours of interviews with Jeffrey Epstein are so important to the public good, then why won't he release the raw recordings? Why is it important that he package them inside of a project that he controls a documentary?

Editing out any narratives that might make him look, frankly, complicit. Why does it have to be carefully curated excerpts? Is it because the unfiltered tapes would reveal just how close Michael Wolf really was to Jeffrey Epstein?

Tonight, we break down the relationship, Wolf never fully admitted to, and the exclusive new reporting that I have on the tapes that he's trying to monetize to this day years after Epstein's death.

Welcome to the Red Letter, the Terapomery Show. We have a very special guest, Ellie Leonard, who is an incredible dog, a reporter who has been working on the Epstein story. And has really honed in on something that has long, I don't know, the word is aggravation, but maybe that is what it is that I feel about Michael Wolf, but Michael Wolf, famous journalist who a lot of people in the business, as many of you know, I was in legacy media for 18 years. There's always been a lot of suspicion around him, his methods, his sourcing, how close he gets to journalists, to his subjects.

And I think the Epstein files reveal how he does his work.

“I mean, SNL had this amazing, you remember that one after fire and feeling the book that he made 13 million dollars on? It's like, it was a true.”

Well, did you like it? Did you like it? Fred Armisen saying playing Michael Wolf doesn't matter if it's true. Did you like it?

We got the gist, so shut up. You know, even the stuff that's not true, it's true. I kind of want to start with one line that really just like jumped out at me from your piece, which everyone should go out and read. The only conclusion I can reach about Michael Wolf is that he was in it for himself and the platform he's been given now to out his buddy, Epstein, who he calls devil, is one of hypocrisy and even cruelty toward the women he ignored, see-mold and discredited in the name of Gauri. I had these moments along the way as I was doing this

“clip and diving into his writing and his emails and everything since about November. So about six”

months. Um, and you know, I have these moments where I go, you know, what am I doing? I just got here and he's somebody who's not beloved. I've learned along the way. He's not beloved. There's not a lot of love lost for Michael Wolpe. He has been pretty cutthroat in dealing with other journalism and how he approaches writing. Um, but you know, there was this moment where he came to subtract where we go, oh, great. You know, he, he does know probably more about Epstein than

most people. Now we're going to get that information. Now all of this investigation is going to move along. I've known for a long time he had all these interviews, you know, 100 hours with Epstein when the most, the Epstein wants to talk about his Donald Trump. So there's got to be something in these

ha, that's a little uncomfortable. He's not talking like somebody that I would say now is it's out for good and out for, you know, supporting survivors. I'm going to pay attention to this. And so at the time, we had, you know, in November, we had these trove of emails that were from the

“house oversight committee that I believe were from the Epstein estate. So we got them a little bit”

differently. And we had kind of this small chunk. And I put them together chronologically. I started to get a picture of the relationship that we had, where I was going, I don't know, I don't know if he's sort of playing the spiral and the Epstein's world. But if he's doing it, he's doing a way better job that I do come home with. And then, in January, we got this huge phobia emails that came straight through the DOJ where we could search. And I just searched from Michael Wolff in the search bar.

And I got 1830 emails. And, you know, there weren't a whole lot of Duke look at. It's like these were all kind of brand new emails every time. And so I just started digging and I started putting these, you know, documents in order and started reading about the relationship they had. And it went so far beyond the name of journalism and writing and it was this machine that was built to steamroll anything in the way of Jeffrey Epstein and his old reputation. It was helping him develop

“the like PR teams, like massive high powered PR team who worked with Harvey Weinstein by the way.”

Yes, yes. I mean, they're trying to buy New York magazine with Harvey Weinstein. He is like creating public statements for Epstein to release, to discredit survivors and discredit like other media outlets. He's trying to get ahead of articles and books that are being released. He's trying to write a book about Epstein. Like, it was this massive PR campaign where you could see that Michael Wolff knew that Epstein was the number one source on information about Donald Trump,

which is all he ever wanted, right? And so he garnered to get everything out of his way so that

that vein of information never closed. And Epstein could rise back to the top and Michael Wolff can go

with him. And along the way, he did things that were unethical. He did things that I would argue are legal. But now he is, he set this whole platform up where he's speaking through the daily beast. And, and it's gone to the point where the daily beast is writing articles about Michael Wolff's

“substack. So it's almost like they are just his mouthpiece, which is questionable because I really”

like the daily beast. I like their reporting, but the take that they are doing right now. I don't want to understand. And so now he is writing as this position of like, oh, I was, I was going to take him down. He's the devil. Yeah. And, and, okay, it's where you're going to take him down, bro. Yeah, 20 years later, like, I don't, I don't understand. Like he didn't write, he won't be wrote a

stern home on articles. Yeah, but first you were going to try to like get all of the bad stories

about him scrubbed from the internet before you took him down, right? Yes, like first you were going to dollars. First you were going to sign an NDA that you would not reveal, um, will you not share James Patterson's text to his book, Phil, the wrist, but actually you gave it to Epstein. Yeah, you're like, everything was, you know, and part of this, and I didn't want to be like a rumor miller. I didn't want to be caddy, but I was like, all these people that are interacting

with Michael Wolff and these emails from, you know, New York magazine and the the publishers and different journalists and different people, they had no idea this other side of the conversation was happening, where they were being fully discredited. And so I sent this entire packet of emails out to these publishers at Little Brown and Company. I said, this is the other side of the conversation that you were having with him, as you said, sign this NDA, this information can go nowhere.

Epstein was reading all your emails. This, you know, New York magazine, here's the discussion of this article where you had Christopher Anderson taking all the photos, like, here's the other

half of this conversation where he was never going to publish that. That was only meant to

you know, either discredit you or puff up at Steve, but he's talking about, you know, Epstein goes, oh, why is there, why are there these stories about women in sexual activity? I did not approve this in the article, and Michael Wolff goes, oh, our editors, a woman, I'll get rid of those, don't worry about it. Like, literally, I mean, in the fact that we've been only called them young, tall, young, like, tall girl. And she called them teenagers. Yeah. In the beginning,

he called them teenagers. He recognized that they were teenagers. He was actually trying to help him get a young assistant from, yeah, to work for him. Yeah. He, he's suggested that he pay off his door man who we believe was the leaker about the fact that all these girls were getting in and out. I mean, this guy is actually trying to help him. By the way, I'm texting with Michael Wolff right now. A little bit of a one of those dot dots. We've been messaging all morning because I'm going to

break some news on the show. So for everybody who's on the show, like, stay tuned. I'm going to explain to you exactly how Michael is still actively trying to monetize those tapes that he's

extent of his friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. And what exactly he was doing, and I'll explain to you why it's been a hilarious morning of lies upon my eyes. And that's the best part about all of this is because it's the person who claims to be a journalist. But yeah, I'm going to break it all

“down for you some reporting. But I think all of this context is like just so helpful, Ellie.”

And I commend you because like, it takes a long time to go through 1800 EFTA files. And like that

is incredible. I mean, his own excuse, you know, he ought to suck it up to spit it back out.

And I've heard this from other journalists, too. Like, you know, you just have to get cozy with these like dirt bags. And it's like, yeah, it's like 20 years. No, and you don't. It's like, the story is really worth it. And by the way, like, Epstein was a little liar. He lied about a lot of things too. I just, I feel very deep in my soul that, you know, these conversations that we actually have are starting in 2009. I know that there were many, many more that we do not have. So I don't know

what are in those. I don't know if they're emails. I don't know if they were phone calls. But this is right after he got out of jail the first time. And, you know, we, we didn't have this sort of

“press that really did anything until 2018, right? When when he went back to jail in 2019, that could have”

happened so much sooner, right? That could have happened right after he got out of jail. This investigation

could have reopened. We could have all paid attention the way we are paying attention now. But for Michael Wolfe, right? He made sure that we didn't get that information. Those articles weren't written. The, you know, like everything he got in front of. And you talk about, like, you know, the ethics and journalism, then do we subpoena journalists or do we investigate journalists? Good question. You know, do we do that? Is that right? But, you know, you will talk to most journalists and they say,

you don't know except lunch from people if you know that they are somebody who is doing a legal activity if they're doing, you know, something where you're reporting on, like in an investigatory way. You don't like go to their home. There are things you don't do and this man was like traveling with him to his properties and eating lunch at his house and dinner at his house and spending time with his family and like, you know, talking about the island. I don't know if he went

to the island, but he was invited to the island, right? So, like, there he is so far beyond the balance of what we would consider good or safe or ethical journalism. But also, you know, since since

“this moment, when Donald Trump went after the journalist, I think it was at the Washington Post who,”

you know, the FBI came to the journalist's door and then they have since gotten a Pulitzer. When that moment happened, Michael Wolf said that he took all of his information and he put it in a secure location. So, now we don't even know, you know, where these interviews are, where this, you know, half a book potentially that he has written is, we don't know where any of that information is. And so, should someone try to subpoena him, it is probably not on his hard drive anymore.

It's probably then moved, just like Epstein moved all his hard drives to offsite locations. Michael Wolf has now moved all of his information somewhere else. Yeah. So, for everyone who's joined, I'm not going to keep dangling what I have been working on, what I've heard. Okay. So, Michael Wolf obviously has these tapes and he claims that no one wants them, right? Ellie, I mean, he's, I will take them. I will take them today.

On some, and there are a lot of questions over whether tapes should be subpoenaed, right? Or what? Like, as a journalist, I understand that. There are questions to over relationships with your source, right? Like, you could, after death, would word believe that after death, he could reveal Bob Woodward, that equal reveal who felt was. He'd throw. Right. Everyone has a different take. I would say the person is a known pedophile, and you actually were actively helping them

to evade, to actually thwart that activity. Maybe you would want to give this information up in the public interest. Clearly, that is not Michael Wolf's agenda. His agenda has been demonetized these tapes, as I have learned. So, this summer, before he was working with the Daily Beast officially, when he was just a regular commentator on Joanna Coles's show, by the way. Yeah, he, I'm enjoying this, because he just keeps sending me straight out lies, but he does it in a way that's like cute.

So, I'm going to break that all down for everybody. Great. Great his talks. So, he tried to have these, he tried to have a package and into a documentary with the Daily Beast. That was like going to produce it and do all that for him, right? So, now he's a, you know, he had sort of monetary contract with

the Daily Beast. They ultimately did not produce it. I have a statement from the Daily Beast

said I was full of misinformation and nonsense, but Daily Beast said there was,

there was a discussion for a project that never went anywhere. They weren't no time purchasing

the special pay attention to the word raw tapes, because this is what Michael Wolf is saying raw tapes. And if you think about the word raw tapes, what they're trying to say, essentially,

“I'm deducing, and I think this is fair to say, and this is what, this is what Michael Wolf keeps”

leaning on the word raw tapes. He's not going to, he's not willing to give up all the tapes. He won't give his news organization solid tapes. Now, he didn't start with the Daily Beast. He's been going around to various other news outlets trying to sell these tapes for a very long time. Not as high price, not attached to producer, right? But would not hand over all of the tapes. There's also the concerns that Jeffrey Epstein has a liar, and he makes things like he does exaggerate

and make things up. So, let some news outlets, I have been told through my sources,

we're concerned about that as well, okay? But there has been no period of time in which Michael Wolf was like, I am going to publish these tapes for the good of society. Like he said, I'm going to put it on the sub-stack and make money. I know now that he is still trying to sell these tapes. Now, he can't sell, because he can't sell them in full, because he wants to hold on to some

“of them for reasons that, which I'll ask him right now. Why do you need to hold on to all of the tapes?”

Why can't you just release them all? I'm going to put a paywall on them. It's released them all. And he just sent me some quote earlier, which I'll explain. We can go through all of the Michael Wolf stuff. And, um, is there something you're holding back? You know, that's, of course. Yes, that is my belief 100% is he does not have. So, here's my thoughts on that. Sorry to interrupt, thank you. Do you want me to go through Michael's stuff?

Yeah, go through. Go through. Go through. Go through. Go through. On my personal stuff, I'll start from the top. So, my belief is that he wanted to monetize this now since the emails have come out, he realizes that he could be very culpable, or at least his reputation, right? That's the currency. His reputation could be smeared by what is said in these, in these files. He, you know, along with not being able to get a contract from anybody,

major news source, as I've done this process, I learned that he's not super popular, right? He's an arrogant guy. He's a narcissist. He fits right into this kind of club of men. And not a lot of people enjoy working with Michael Wolff. That is why also there are not a lot of outlets that are jumping at the chance to take on a project with him. But also, he now has these files. And I will tell you as a transcriber, because that is my side business. Going through and listening

to 100 hours, transcribing them, writing them up, whatever is a lot of work. My guess is Michael Wolff has it done that on his own. But he also is really nervous about hiring someone else to

“listen to them and do that for him, because he doesn't want anything leaked. And so I think he's”

in over his head with these files. Like he has probably not listened to all 100 hours. And he's probably nervous about what's in them and doesn't want to just hand them off to somebody, and assume that everything will be okay for him, because I'm guessing that it wouldn't be. I mean, he could upload them into AI or something like that. He could, but yeah. Okay.

Here's what he said. He's read texting me something that he sent me this morning.

He said, "I don't believe in the rat, veracity of raw files." That's insane. Okay. Go on. In this version of Truth Seeking, all police files should be open and every journalist and every journalist knows it interviews on the public record. That's obviously nonsense. Person's dead now, Michael. You're not projecting the source anymore. And this person was a pedophile. I argue that the release of the so-called "I'm sorry, I'm dropping in my own commentary, but I'll

go back." You could do it all the way through. I'd argue that the release of the so-called "epstein files." So-called, they're "epstein files." You said that a lot. He does say that a lot. My own commentary and excuse me is the monstrosy, liberal act, willy-nilly, compromising people's privacy, an earthing all kind of irrelevant material, and wildly confusing the context of the information that is being presented. It's like he thinks the "epstein files" and "bunk." He thinks

they're ridiculous and yes, that was very relevant in his conversation. I'm not a television personality. My interviews weren't made to be broadcast, although that to my reporting, he is actively shopping a narrative document right now, but in which he would be as he was before, but yes. They were meant to aid me in telling the "epstein story," which is, which I have written about extensively in the past and which I am now

telling on a strict timeline from when I met him until he died on subject, a new chapter,

doc that includes the podcasts that would make you a broadcaster. Yes. The podcast, the, the, the, the,

“I'm sorry, the emails that would make you a broadcaster also you have a podcast.”

Well, and he was, he was speaking to cinematographers with "epstein" tearing their head of their relate. He was like, I know. He was talking about Netflix. You and, you and, you and Epstein were talking about Netflix. That's like, this is kind of fun. I mean, in a weird way, but it's also very intricate, like, irritating because he, he has a really hard time at the truth. Okay. Let me go back up. Let me start from the top. Okay. Then I say, why were you willing to have them produced by

the Daily Beast? He says, you are full of misinformation in the past and now I say, "No, I'm not. They were hiring producers to produce your tapes for a series this summer." You've openly admitted in the past that you've tried to have them published and no one wanted them. He says to me, not true, but feel free to ask Joanna, which I did. I asked Joanna Cole's. He said, "Once again,

there was never, there has never been a agreement that planned or an agreement to publish my raw

tapes and he's really leaning on the word raw tapes, meaning all of my tapes." So he's playing the mantex. Like, this is not an honest out. Yeah. Yeah. Casey confirms she confirmed, you're saying what you're saying or yacking about. Okay. I love his wording. He does this a lot. He said, "I should have no idea where you're at." Joanna says, "I should have had no idea what you're asking, but that's not true because I have a bit Daily Beast spokesperson on the record

after seeing her. I don't understand why that was her default either." She's a journalist. Yeah. They've been friends for like 25 years. I also wonder why she continuing to give him this platform. It's not like the one I wonder why the Daily Beast is,

“but I think Joanna Cole's is very high up at the Daily Beast and so does they're kind of doing”

her bidding and she's doing his, but she's sort of doing for him what he did for Epstein. She knows, I mean, I've talked to her and she did me kind of the answer in the can of like, well, we talked about those uncomfortable emails back in November and this is his answer that he gave me and we've released pieces of the interviews and I was like, yeah, you've released like four and they're all under 10 minutes and you have a hundred hours of those interviews. So it's like,

that doesn't cut it for me, but also those emails that you're referring to are compared to what we have now are relatively like pain. You know, they were still bad, but they were pain compared to the ones that we have now. And so I said, here, look, I'm going to send you the entire email thread. You don't have to respond to me. You know, I just want to know that you have it and you know what's in here and I said it to her because I mean, there are really, there are points in

there where he's saying that he wants to trade information, that he's wearing it with all these interviews he's given in the White House. He wants to then go meet with the Saudis and trade the information. He's met a hundred percent off the record. He's like, let me, let me go meet those guys. And Epstein was very, very close with MBS, Muhammad bin Salam, you know, the guy who then killed Khashoggi, like they were all very tight and Michael Wolf wanted a piece of that. He was

willing to trade information that he was not supposed to have off the record. And that is like one of the most damning pieces for me that I have tried to like yell from the top. He also isn't a registered foreign agent. Well, honey, shouldn't be involved in all these, that is the individual registered foreign agent and/or spy. Yeah, and he's meeting at the U.N. dinners at Epstein's house where he's bringing all these world leaders. Like there's just things that are so uncomfortable

and inappropriate. And, you know, why he's there? I don't understand, because it's not like he's like writing for the New York Times and he's there to get a story in any ways. Like, he's just there for everything. He's there for every dinner and he's like meeting with every person who's like, hey, can I get in on that? And he's like, yeah, I got a dinner game. He asks him, okay, he flies on the plane. Okay, absolutely. Then some sneakers. This is sneakers. I know that. Okay, and you're at last

of my check, you're not even allowed to accept sneakers. You also shouldn't be buying a news page.

“Then, and then Epstein's like, when you need to talk about a financial package, you know,”

can you be my ghost writer? And, and Wolf says, like, oh, I'm allergic to talking about money. And, but just so, I mean, he real hilarious are so much strong, something that we have so much more value.

Okay, yeah, I asked him, are you refusing a subpoena? He said, first, you can't refuse a subpoena.

You can refuse to comply with a subpoena. Do you see what I'm saying about the subpoena? Yeah, being smarter than you. Yeah, I'm really annoying Michael, we can also agree with you. I've had a lot of discussions with many media outlets about telling these Epstein story using my tapes, but there's been a decided lack of interest. I am, though, ever hopeful and easy to contact. That will be revealed. I cannot tell the entire story because I about this because for various reasons,

Okay, a documentary. And it is, it is hitched on with a major documentary

“up with a major producer, a sister, actively selling it right now at this moment, okay?”

These days are shopping it around. So, um, yeah, so he, well, monetize it. Now, the thing that, the, the interesting thing about the idea that like, he can't just put, like, you mentioned, why doesn't he just put it on his substock and put a paywall on it, right? He can't. Because it has to have his voice, like, as it says, and I didn't hit it, he needs, I didn't know all the bad shit, essentially, probably. Do you not, like, I'm going to say,

do you not want to give the, I mean, that's something for him to respond to. Do you not want all of the raw files published? Because you're worried about how you, how you appear? Yeah, tell him on, give him five bucks. Hey, the team needs a place to unload. Because, um, you are concerned about your own appearance in the tips. Now, just do your podcast and a lesson from time to time, up to Aldin Hurt,

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or Nude Boel Fertiggericht, up $299.50, for no $1.99, or Miss Annie Sane, K-4, $299.50, that's good for all of the price. Now, there's your filial, all the good for all of it. You wouldn't go on the phone with me for what it's worth. No, I'm sure. And then, um, yeah, I, uh, this whole idea that nobody wants it is ridiculous. He's, there, he's just hasn't stopped trying. Like, he's just, they daily, they didn't go forward with it. They didn't. Ultimately, um, but he said, that's smart of them. I mean, that shows that they still have some integrity,

because, you know, they were, he was trying to do multiple documents a minute. He'll put him on a show every single day. So I don't know, right? Which, yeah, I, I know. Yeah. But like, he was trying to do a fire and fury series through Netflix that ended up getting squashed, um, that they were actually already taping, and he was like, flying out to the West Coast for, but like, I don't know. I, uh, he doesn't, he, he has so much information. And I also feel like part of the reason that he doesn't rock these tapes released is,

he gather so much information on Donald Trump. He gathered information from Jeffrey Epstein about the past. He gathered the present day by going in and interviewing 200 different interviews in the White House. And then he met Steve Bannon, got along with Steve Bannon, and got all the, like, current dish.

“And I think if he feels like if he gives up these interviews, that door will effectively close”

for any future Trump information, which is all he really wants to write about ultimately.

And so I don't think he wants to close that door because I know, I know there's information about Donald Trump on those tapes. That is the one thing that Jeffrey Epstein was willing to talk about openly and not filter himself. And so I think that he's worried about what, what, what door that will effectively shut for him. Some of the things, yeah, I mean, he's, some of the things that Donald Trump on those tapes are really talking, um, for what he's seen in the photo.

He saw photos from the face like reported nothing, you know, his ethics are gone. Diana rushing acts, what do you think of the, of the pop-up library in New York? Yeah, you went there, Ali, how was it? Okay, you know, it wasn't what I expected. I will say, because I think I think the way they, I thought I dreamed this. And I was like, wait, I thought somebody said it was going to be a little bit, um, more, like, funny or, like, um, a reverend.

Yeah, are just something like that with, like, the idea of Trump and Epstein and all that stuff. And it, it wasn't, it wasn't whatsoever. Um, when I went in, it was very slumber. And it was very quiet,

“it felt like a funeral. Um, I think the intent behind the library itself is to see,”

the size of this investigation, like, have a physical imagery of how much information we are dealing with. It is two stories, wall to wall, um, of these massive, I think there are 3,000, something massive, biners full of information. They're all 800 pages each. It just shows you the intensity of how much information we have, like, this is not all the information that exists, but what we have at this point, and there were, there were places for you to, like, write notes, um, you know, with the intent

that probably survivors are going to stop by and see the notes, or, um, but it was, it was very, like, locked down and secure. You had to have a reservation. There was, like, a security team at the front. You have to, like, have your identification in order to go in. Um, but it was a very,

to be a little bit of, like, almost like an onion experience, like, um, between Epstein and,

and Trump and, uh, and a little bit of the, like, um, you know, terrible hilarity of their relationship together over the years, but it wasn't at all. It was very, it was almost like walking into a mausoleum. Yeah. I mean, I saw that from the videos and, um, I, I was really captivated by your video, um, it was cool that you went. I, you know, I have, I have mixed feelings about it, um,

“which I think I said, like, I think that there needs to be a true memorial, and I think”

it, like, it needs to be something that's not a pop-up memorial. Like, I don't know how long they're going to be able to keep this place in Tripeca available, um, because it is funded by a pack. Um, yeah. And that alone kind of irks me a bit, um, like, I, like, I, like, I, like, I, like, I respect and understand the need to keep the, like, the story on Jeffrey Epstein. And obviously, the fact that, like, the president of our president of our president of United States was so prominently

featured in the files, find that Jeffrey Epstein has been accused by survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, um, and it's, but like, I do think, like, when it's being used, just, like, like, when it's being kind of like, it's called the Trump Jeffrey Epstein Library. There's a little bit they meant for it to be a little bit more, because I, on their website, it went back and they said, it's a funny experience, and then I went, I was like, that was not funny. Like, it's a very

serious, serious. Yeah. I don't know. There's something like, I, I get a little annoyed by the

poll, I, I hate this word. It's always really hard to say. It's the station. I love the station.

It's very difficult for me. I have a, I get really annoyed with that aspect of the story,

“because I think that's a really big part of the reason why no one cared in 2019. They didn't”

see the gravity of the story. It was tribal. Like, it was tribal story. And I think, I think it's, there's a separation of, there's no two versions of this story. It's all one they story with the survivors of the center. I think maybe the intent of the pop-up library is to is to look more at it objectively from the investigation, legal standpoint, and just to see the enormity of how big this case is, because it, it's a physical imagery of, like, holy cow,

this is shumangus. Like, I don't, I, I'm not a lawyer. You know, I don't work on a lot of cases. I don't know any case that would have this missy, high holes involved with it. I think maybe, for that reason, you know, it's good for people to see, like, in a room, how big is this case? Well, it's two stories. It's shows all the way to the back. I do think that, like, maybe the idea of a memorial for the survivors and for the people who

lost, and so that, you know, just the trauma, like that experience of lost through trauma,

“is a separate experience, but it's, I think, just, it's so hard to separate those two ideas,”

at least for me. In my mind, when I walked in there, you know, just seeing that many files, because, like, I know it's in them. I read a lot of them, and it's like, seeing them all is really devastating. But then from, like, a nerdy, like, academic side of things, like, I was like, man, I could pull up a bean bag, and a highlighter, and here, and just, like, go through these, and, and I think that would, the idea of having, like, paper versions of all the files,

like flip through, and, like, get information through, I don't think it would be really helpful. But, um, I do, I do understand what you're saying, that it, you know, we need to do more, because this, I think it just goes till the end of May. It gets just the one month experience. I don't know if it will. Yeah. I want, like, I want those resources to be used on a true, like cement, memorial, that people can go to and pay their respects. Yeah. I don't want any,

like, Trump, Epstein, like, this is the Epstein survivors memorial. Like, this is a story. This is about the, the women who have been, who have been told me of them have been hurt,

and not always by President Trump. Like, you know, not all of them. And obviously, he's dismissive

of them and does not, and that is compounding the pain, obviously. But I do think, like, in some way, the story needs to be focused on them in a way. And that, that, that, um, like, don't use them as a way to get a dig in at Trump. Do you know what I mean? I think, I think it's like the idea of when we have one of these mass shootings, like, that we don't talk about the shooter all the time. Yeah.

What I mean, like, do you talk about the people who are lost? And I think, yeah. Ultimately, if we get this case right, and we can fit the right people who need to be convicted, then they go to jail, or they've used everything, or they have the right consequence for their actions, then we move them out of the story, and we make it just about the women who stood up for 30

but I'll book about FBI, um, that, that the story and ultimately whatever happens at the end is only about them, um, and everything else can fade away. Once they have gone to jail, once they have disappeared, once they have died, all these bad actors can fade away, and we can just focus on the survivors.

“I think they should be the focus now, and always have been, and I agree. We still have a lot of”

questions on my cool stuff. People aren't done. Um, sorry. Do you know, Deanna Rochings saying, uh, oh, sorry, that we add Deanna, Donna Nona said, which I love that name, by the way, Donna Nona, it's like the most Italian name ever. Um, he dismissive of the Epstein files. If he was himself doing research on Epstein, he wasn't doing research on Epstein. The only research he was ever doing on Epstein was to build Epstein's credibility back into the public spectrum, and on the global scale with all

these major leaders because he felt that that opened up opportunities for him as well. Um, if you look at every letter they sent from the beginning of time, um, and that Michael Wolpe was sending to other people. There, there is no indication, and you could say, oh, he's just a really great spy. He was spying on, you know, Epstein, and he was a really good actor, but this is 20 years of

“him hanging out at eating lunches and traveling with families and buying gifts for each other,”

and he was writing about Epstein, and he was, you know, ultimately, there are letters where he's discrediting Virginia, right, where he's discrediting Jane Does, where he's discrediting the entire British media for being goalable for believing these Jane Does accusations. Like,

he was never in it to help survivors or believe them, and so when he, he calls these the so-called

Epstein files now, it's because that's really what he believes. That's his gut response. He doesn't believe that they're real files. He doesn't believe they're real accusations. He believes the same thing that he always believed when he was with Epstein is that he's a guy who was a ladies man. He liked the ladies. He liked what they call the Rubin tug and foot massages, and there's no problem with that. Why should we, why should we be all over the sky about that? Yeah, he liked the ladies,

but actually he was okay, but they were, if they were girls. Yeah, right. Why can you look okay with that? In part of going through these emails is you start to see this psychology of

Epstein, and how he never ever wanted to be alone. He was afraid to be alone, whether that was

online in these conversations or in his own home. You see, as he talks to Michael Wolf, Michael Wolf doesn't respond in time. Epstein will write back what just like question marks, like why aren't you answering my emails, like respond to me. And so he was the same way in his home. He constantly had to have people walking around his house. He could not be alone. He was afraid to be alone. And so if you were in his home for any significant amount of time,

you would have seen these groups of girls walking around the house. Like there's no way to go to Epstein's house and have it be empty. There would always have been young assistants, young girls coming after school. He would have picked them up after practice. He's paying tuition and all these private schools around New York City. There's no way that Michael Wolf could have missed that by spending a single afternoon at Epstein's house, let alone 20 years. He's telling him to pay off

the door man to stop thinking about what's going on in the house. He knows it's going on inside the house. What cat asks, did he ever give that go fun? We money back. I don't think he'd run. No, no, he's in that, you know, if so backing up Melania Trump's friend, Sue him because he mentioned both that Epstein introduced her to Trump and that the first time Trump and Melania had sex was on Epstein's plane. So she threatened to sue him for a billion dollars.

They threatened all the time. He immediately did an anti-slap suit. Raised to go fun. He said, hey, I'm going to do an anti-slap. Let's see what go funny. Raised 830,000 dollars from like sub-stack middle-class folks, you know, pennies and dimes. And now has almost a million dollars

to fight a lawsuit that never actually came to fruition. And you can say, well, you know, he has

“the anti-slap suit. So he is paying into that whatever, but you have to remember this time it”

$13 million on his book. Like the idea that he set up to go fun in the first place for a suit that he himself is bringing is a grift. You know, if he wants to do that, that's fine, but he has the funds to pay for that. He doesn't need some stackers to pay his legal bills. I just want to repeat this. And Epstein, I would put him in the, I would put him in the bucket of Epstein collaborator, frankly. Yes, I thought it was. Or worse. He helped him for his image. He gave him advice on how

to, like, he eventually, he never reported him or what he saw or he never reported even as a journalist.

on a person that he spent decades with the devil, right? And now asking people for money,

would anyone give money to an Epstein collaborator? No. They shouldn't. I mean, like, if Galen Maxwell or something like that, like, nothing he recruited girls, but he didn't help him hire an assistant. God knows what happened to that person. Yeah. No, he was, I don't know. If we really used him to new people that could possibly, like, he's a predator. He was they were all about the Rolex. These people were all about expanding their Rolex and, you know,

he didn't he introduced tended to Bill Gates and he re-wrote the narrative. And we have to

“remember that most of this conversation occurred right after Epstein got out of jail the first time”

where he was convicted on only two two counts, but like that he had 36 under age accusers. And

that case alone, all of this, like, he starts the conversation going, like, I'm just talking you up all over town. Don't worry about it. I'll bring it, you know, I'll bring you back here. Image will be great. Um, this is somebody who saw Epstein as a benefit for him to write books to make money, which he did. He was sending drafts to Epstein of all his books and Epstein was giving him information and editing these books. And then Epstein saw him as a benefit because here's a guy

who can help me with my image in the media. And so it was very fit for that, but they hung on for a very long time with this relationship. My favorite line is, I mean, not favorite, but like most mind-blowing, I think the entire relationship, he's going to write a piece for New York Magazine, and which you'd be paid $18,000. Yeah, right about Jeff, we have seen it. And of course, as he said,

“the woman added the life is sexual abuse. Right. He's a sex defender. He can't write a piece”

about a sex defender without mentioning it, right? Um, back to when to jail for soliciting a minor for prostitution, which is insane. Um, and Epstein says, yeah, you can't do, you're going to get me in trouble if you write about me being a sex defender or solicitor's drop it. And Michael willfully drops it. He drops, he loses $18,000, putty understands he calculates that in the long run when he writes his books and Epstein's his source. He's going to make way more money. Oh, yeah.

And, and he's also at no point was willing to, to even introduce the stated, like, I, if you

worked at any news outlet, you could never write a piece about that person. And if they had a

criminal conviction, not include that in the piece, right? Like he has broken so many journalistic rules and, and also, like, as journalists when you get, um, I know you've worked in transcriptionally. I don't know if you've ever worked in, in, in, in, as a journalist before, but obviously you're an excellent journalist, um, but, um, you know, there's just like these rules that we have. You know what I'm saying? Like, you can't sign an NDA for a book, but you're going to get an advance because you're

going to report on it and then pass it off to somebody else. Like that is, yeah, you can't, you can't do that and you did that. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You abused relationships with published person, find out what was being reported on by about Jeffrey Epstein, right? He was, and she was, out of an, of an, of a PR person under the guise of a journalist. Yeah, he was, he was, he was the fixer, you know, he was, Epstein's fixer. He, he was, you know, and he had a big enough reputation at that

time that, like, when he approached, you know, smaller editors at bigger publishers, they were really excited to like, oh, Michael Wolfe is reaching out. This is so cool. He's interested in this book, um, but you can see over the course of their interactions that they start to get weary of his intentions because he pushes too hard. Like, he starts asking too many questions and these emails,

“and you can see them totally cool off and go, hold on. Why are you asking all these questions?”

And then you can, you can, you can kind of get the idea that they start doing their homework behind the scenes and they realize that he's way too close to Epstein in order to continue this conversation. But he was, he tried to get out like they talk about James Patterson's book and they talk about, you know, can they write a book fast enough to get out in front of it, you know, and and create a counter narrative book in front of it and, and Michael Wolfe's like, well, I don't think we could

publish it that fast, but we could start to release, you know, um, public statements in the media that could counter and discredit this book that's coming out as being like hogwash, and then we can write a book really fast after that. That will, that will counter it. So it's, I mean, it's, it's absolutely like, you just go like, what, how much money is Michael Wolfe making off of Epstein in this process that he is willing to do all of these things because he was just like willing to, you know,

just throw, you know, through a moment front of the train in order to get this information from

not subpoenaed? I have never heard Kana or Garcia mentioned his name, at least put some pressure on

“by naming him. That is difficult because like, you don't generally want a subpoena journalist, right?”

Like, that's just, if you could even call him a journalist, like, I would make the argument. Yeah, he says he's not a journalist. So I see that window is open. It really is no reason not to. But, uh, he's going to release the pain at the document, right, or that, or the audio without subpoening him as a person, right? Totally. Um, but there is like a sort of, you know, first amendment, like, there are, there are protections around this. But like I say, I think it's a, the source

is dead, moral code, like, this is evidence. Right. And it's also legality in a case of, of underage sex abuse, right? There's, it's not that he was writing an article that he was, you know, he's not a Catholic priest. He's not like, you know, in a confession, you know what I mean? Like, he's, he's somebody who met with somebody who abused children for 35 years, right? And has made statements to the fact that he's seen some of this information from the safe

in Jeffrey's house and never reported what he's seen and, you know, that kind of thing. So,

you know, on President Trump's pants, right? Yeah, yeah, the stain. Like, but I mean,

“I think he said he saw a dozen photos from the safe, you know, so you have to wonder why”

were the photos of the safe? But like, just the fact that he has an information, he is somebody who should be questioned, at least. Yeah. By the way, you guys can help us keep digging. Ellie, obviously, is a darker reporter. I just came out with a big piece on John Kerry and his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, which actually I first learned about in 2019 through Virginia, Jufrae, who I like, like, who I traveled around the country with kind of kindnesses to cooperate,

heard the story of her abuse. I'm going to continue reporting on that. I have some more leads on how just how close they were. So hit the subscribe button to support me and Ellie, as we, you know, seek to continue to bring the story with the very limited documents that we actually have, anything about it. And like I've always said, the survivors hold the keys to this story and we're just trying our best to tell it. It's like, you know, it's so funny, Ellie, and I don't know if

you hear this, but I get this from a lot of people, particularly men, they always say, like, when are you going to move on from Epstein? When are you going to move on from Epstein? They're like, you're like the Epstein whisper, because I've, you know, been working on this since 2019. You know, I'm like, apparently, you know, a good friend of mine who's a journalist said, Tara, don't stop. They said the same thing to Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein, which I would argue

word or gate is not as expansive. I would conspiracy it. I don't think anything is. Yes. And they literally told him to back off. They saw Nixon get reelected. They mocked them for being a bunch of freaks

“who are obsessed with the break in at a condo. And I think this is, like, we have only seen the”

tip of the iceberg. Obviously, like, I am trying to confirm a lot of reporting that I've gotten from on Virginia. It's really hard. It's a very hard. Here's really, really, really, really hard. It takes a really, really, really long time because we're up against the most powerful people in the world. And I believe that it's going to be on the backs of women, like, Julia Cape Brown, like, the great way work you've been doing. Like, this is a, this is our story. And yeah. And I would say,

like, I mean, like, with a lot of this stuff, like, we need men support, you know, there's a lot of the response to this is very woman-heavy. And rightfully so, this is a thing we've been fighting for, you know, beyond the Epstein files for centuries. Like, they were trying to break this narrative. And somebody, somebody said the other day, it's like the death rattle of the patriarchy, which I love that phrase. But, you know, the sort of, like, imagery that I give is, you know,

I have four kids, and why it matters to me is I am pushing them out into this world where this has not been six yet, right? If we're still saying move on, you know, people are overreacting, they're being hysterical as Michael Wolf has referred to me before. Like, there is one time in my life where my kids were in danger and somebody tried to hurt them and they will tell you that is the most explosive angry I have ever been in my entire life. Like, I scared my own children by half my

response to that. And that is how women react to this. Like, if you get in front of women who are trying to protect children, you be sending for your life because we will stop at nothing to make sure that this is fixed. So, this never, ever happens again. It should never have

happened in the first place, but we will stop at nothing to make sure it never happens again.

you know, like Trump said himself, it's going to hurt my friends. That's all they care about.

“It's the currency. It's the popularity is the currency and they, you know, and I don't think”

anybody who has involved in this case is really scared about whatever acts they had of girls that there are 16, 17 years old. Like, they don't think that that is anything, you know, because legally in the US there are many, many, many states that consent down to 16 years old. But that is if they're consenting, these girls are not consenting. They are, they are saying that they did not consent and, and so they could, they talk about the naughty 90s and, like, the clubs in New York and, like,

all this stuff and it's like, that doesn't matter. This is not a case about money laundering. I know people keep freaking out about that. It did occur that did occur, but the core of this case is the abuse of children. And we cannot continue to prosecute these men around the world for sharing classified information, you know, poor money decisions. Like, this is the case of child

“sex abuse. And if we lose that and we don't pay attention to that, then that cycle continues.”

Exactly. Yep. I mean, if anything, this is a story that shows you that with enough money, you can go away with anything and we're seeing that no, play out right now. It's like the abuse can use every single day and it's compounded every single day. How many of the conspirators are still walking around going to work every day? Yeah, sorry. I was looking to see if I don't have a little food continues to deny that he is actively trying to produce a to pitch

this project with a major producer that will eventually come to light. Because and then we have you can just comment and you'll text messages. This guy is really good. Zero F. It's incredible.

It is incredible. It's like, it's like, it's really, yeah, I like that he always calls me a so-called

journalist or something like that. He does that a lot. He, he, you know, I don't follow his interviews anymore, but like, when people have since stuff to me, it's it's always him using language to discredit people like, I don't even know who they are. Who are they? They don't even care. They're just armchair investigators or their opportunities. Like, that was the funny one. He called me and a couple of the people opportunities. And I was like, I don't have an 830,000

dollars go for me. I don't know what you're like. I don't, I don't have those opportunities to definition of an operator and opportunist. And yeah, yeah. So, um, do you lease a nice drum, lease in the house, she's a regular, uh, who do you think wolf has criminal exposure? I don't know,

“actually, but I think he definitely has reputational exposure ultimately. He's he's part of a club.”

I mean, he, yeah, I am always very careful to say, like, oh, he didn't, you know, I'm not accusing

him of sex crimes. But I do think that he, like, every buddy in this case was highly aware of Epstein's reputation and then saw it in action with the people walking around him every day. Like, I mean, the very first time he met him and said he was curious, but he likes around him by teenage girls at the first thing he noticed and wrote about in an article in 2007. And now, he has changed that statement to young women, you know, because he knows that that's the terminology

he needs to use, which he also wrote about in one of his books is how we need to start calling them young women instead of girls, because that will fix that reputation only. Okay, I'm going to quote Virginia and Jufra from, um, our time together. She said to me, quote, you couldn't be a piece of delivery boy and walk in Epstein's house and not know what's going on. You walk into the house, says, naked pictures everywhere, young girls everywhere, old dude, not married. Like, it's not

hard to put two and two together, really. Yeah, I mean, she said, here's the other thing. I want to just keep going really quick. Yeah, go for it. We would, she said, quote, to me, we would, you know, lay out completely naked, 100% naked. Jeffrey, it did not like timelines at all. He wanted tan bodies. He wanted petite bodies. He wanted, like, pretty badass embodies. So no pubic hair and no timelines. Yep. And there's emails to that. There's emails about girls going and getting, like,

waxed, like, Leslie Graff was setting those appointments up all the time. Yeah, I just think, I just, I can only speak for myself. But I, I just imagine what it would life to step, what it'd be like to step in that house and just see one thing and know how fast I would have red flags. Like, just as a human, I don't even as a woman, just as a human, like, how fast the red flags would go up

he knew the right people. Like, I just, it would never happen for me. And I'm not in that world,

you know, I don't know any millionaires, but it's like, like, I don't believe it's more like,

“he knew the right people. I think some people just literally wanted to be there because they wanted”

to be around these beautiful girls. Yeah. Well, I just think of like these long lists of, like, the dinner party attendees that are all celebrities that were post 2009. And it's not like, everybody's gonna go, you know, look up somebody's sex offender background, but he was well-known. Like, his history was well-known and it was not hidden. And again, like he said, he had pictures of naked girls all over his house. So it's like, the people who say, well, I didn't know when I only

went there once and I was invited to a dinner. Like, he had a reputation that proceeded him that was incredibly well-known in multiple circles. And, and I just question why anybody of means would accept that invitation. I just don't, I don't know. I remember working at the New York post. And, like, obviously, when he, when it was known that he was a sex friend or because he was such a figure on those in the the New York society, like, we all knew about it. Like, you know, they, they want to send me to his house once.

So like, they could help. They were like, you're young. You're cute. We'll send you out. I was like, oh, god. Okay. Um, they're, uh, I wanted to tell you I went to the hearing yesterday. Yeah. That was really powerful. It was, I have mixed feelings at it. Like, I have so many mixed feelings about everything.

“Do you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, yeah, I, I struggle. I can like, I think I have to try to”

hold it a few things. So I want like, it was a shadow hearing. It was not a real hearing before Congress because Republicans have been a power. They do not call them. So it couldn't be held in Congress. It was in West Palm Beach. You know, the members made sure to like notice to note that it was near Marlaco, but it was ultimately near the scene of the crime at Epstein's home and where so many

of these girls were from. It was powerful. I never heard the victim Rosa talk before who was

actually, while Jeffrey Epstein was under house arrest for the crime in 2005, which we had heard about that he was still like bringing girls to his office where he was spending his, his science foundation, exactly his jail sentence and his office and he was abusing girls while police were standing outside the door. But here, her talk about the fact that she was abused over and over and

“over and over again for years by Jeffrey Epstein. She said that it was worse. And I think I have”

this bias and perhaps others who too that like we think, oh, America, like we're not like those third world countries where they literally sell their children. She's from use back to stand and she

was like, I've never seen anything worse. The guy was a model all over the world. I had never seen

anything worse than what I experienced in America and that broke my heart. That line truly broke my heart. Sky and Amanda Roberts were there. That sky Roberts is Virginia's younger brother. They have been traveling all over the country for Virginia and I am in total of them. I was so proud of sky. He said I'll under sure it's his name. Good. He said he's good. Thank you. I mean, that guy needs to be talked about whole hell of a lot more. And I think like a lot of people don't really

understand what I was with Virginia in the middle of that too, the defamation too and how it broke her. Yeah. And how like she was a mask. Like we did that entire podcast knowing that she couldn't speak freely because of the fact that he was aggressively attacking her like his life depend on it, because his life did depend on it. And he found the email that says that he sent to her lawyers saying this is the statement. She has to say it clearly. We have that statement in an email

that shows that she didn't come up with her, yeah, it just it's mind bogging. I'm I'm going to am working on reporting the terms of that deal, by the way. Okay. The full terms of the deal, what he owes her if he breaks it and says her name, because he owes her money right now, her estate for break. Yeah. So like this wasn't like a and I know Michael Tracy and others try to use this and say, oh, like she admitted that she's a liar. It's like she admitted under duress her family. Like the

kind of, I mean, when we were together, someone broke into her house. I'm not saying it was Alan Durstwitz, but there was a break in at her house. The kind of intense pressure and duress that she was under was insane. And she created a foundation called victims for a few silence. Like this was one who will be so deeply. And yet there are so many things still, there are still so many things

name names. She couldn't name names. Yeah. I think people are under the misconception that the survivors are legally covered enough to do whatever they need to do to prosecute this case and they're not. I mean, they do have lawyers and they have a lot of pro bonal lawyers, a lot of them don't have pro bonaliers and they have, you know, sold their houses to pay their legal bills. But you have they're going up against people with extensive money, like excessive money. And I asked, I asked one of the

lawyers who is representing awful bunch of the survivors. I said, let's say they, you know, there's this idea of them releasing the list, which they don't have to do. They are not beholden to release the list of all the conspirators. That is not their responsibility to do if they don't want to do it. But I said, what could happen to them if they release it? Are they safe if they release a list of

conspirators? And he said, we would do our best, but they have $1 million lawyers. Like we can only

do so much. We would protect them at every length that we could go to, but like the protections from billionaires are a lot better. And so, it's just that they don't even have to go into discovery. They can just continue to bleed these women dry of legal bills. Right. Right. Them to court. In whatever jurisdiction they think that they could win by the way, dry items, whatever place they think. And they can, like, that's part of the problem with being an

independent journalist as well. Like we're up against the same thing. They can, they can just decide to bully you through law fair. They don't have to do it. For them, it's not about winning. It's just about the incremental bleeding of resources and time and energy and spiritual energy. Right. And when these women are traveling all over to, to go to press conferences and things,

a lot of them are paying their way. They're paying their way. They're always paying their way.

“They're always paying their way. Right. And we, I think people assume could someone's on television”

that they can afford stuff. But like Virginia Free was working in nine to five jobs. Like, like, all these people are still working fast citizens and they don't have the excessive funds. And it's even with, like, some of the payouts from the abstinous state. Like, the payouts were not great. They didn't cover a lot. And so a lot of that money has been used up to continue to fight the legal battle for them. Like, they've used it in order to get to these places

and do these things. And so it's not like they're living in the laugh of luxury because they're part of this case. They are still going to work every day and calling out in order to go to these conferences and different things. So I, I feel for them because they have had to prosecute their own case. They're, they're doing the work that the DOJ should have done for 30 years. You know, these things pop up and we're, we're shocked. We'll see a document and just be absolutely shocked

by the torture letter from, if from the, the, the Sultan, you know, a different people releasing

“these horrible, horrible things. And we have to remember that the DOJ has had it the whole time.”

Right? It's shocking to us now because we've never seen it. The DOJ has always had these

documents and hasn't done anything about them. Yeah. Ellie, someone commented that Michael Cohen asked April Ryan, who's a great reporter, by the way. When I was, when I was a correspondent, we used to sit next to each other in the briefing room and he asked her how to stop the terror pulmarys and the Ellie Leonard's, you know, you got Michael Wolf, got my, uh, hands, Michael Cohen Michael's after us. But I think, uh, just through tellers, uh, we are going to obviously

brush up against people who like to lie. I mean, I don't know what else to say. People are sitting a hide. Um, and so keep going, keep fighting, uh, yeah, really appreciate what you're working on and what you're doing. I think we all do and, um, was great to have you on the show. Of course guys, like you can support Ellie and I and our mission by hitting the subscribe button. Consider becoming paid subscribers. It's how we can do this. Um, and support others who

support us. Um, I know I have some people helping me out on my end. I'm sure you've probably gotten to that place too. I have a YouTube channel as well. The terror pulmarys show you couldn't listen on Spotify, Apple, um, got to plug it all because, you know, how we do this. But thank you all and

“Ellie, thank you. Thank you. And if you want to read the Michael Wolf piece, you can either read”

it on my sub stack. It's tended to top or it is now published at the nerves, which is an independent media out of our family. That was another episode of the terror pulmarys show. Thank you again for tuning in. Please like, subscribe, rate, share this with all of your friends. Consider becoming a paid subscriber to the terror pulmarys show is where I am doing investigative independent reporting going wherever the story leads without fear or favor. I can only do that without your help. Um,

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