Inside the Social World That Kept Epstein Untouchable

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These were not the people that were there for sex. It was the random people, like a lawyer from Goldman or a lawyer from another firm or doctors or life gurus, like Peter Ethea, who just were bantering back and forth with him. Whether they went to the island, the dinner, or whatever.

And I'm trying to come up with reasons thoughtful people would do that.

A lot of thoughtful people didn't. Welcome back to the Terrible Mary Show. Jeffrey Epstein didn't launder his reputation alone. An entire social class helped him do it. And that's something I have been struggling with.

As I watch people now, try to claim that there's some sort of cancel culture around anyone who appears in the Epstein files. They say it's unfair that people who spend time with him did business with him, stating his orbit, after he was already a known sex offender, have to pay the price for it. Some of them have lost their prestigious positions for it.

Some have been ostracized from society, but I've always seen this as very black and white.

If you chose to associate with him after that, and you're in a position of power, it says something about your judgment.

“And that raises questions about whether you should be trusted to leave.”

But obviously, people tell themselves different stories, right? They say, well, I just went to one of his dinners. I was there in that work. I was just the world that I worked in, and we didn't know the extent of the crimes, whatever it might be. And then there are people like Michael Wolff, a journalist, who basically said he was observing Epstein for years, trying to understand him.

So we could write about him, which of course he never did. He did write something that he was going to put in his book that he sent to Jeffrey for review, and literally did not include anything about the underage girls in it. But I digress, he did also want to buy New York magazine with Jeffrey Epstein and Harvey Weinstein. They put him a bit together. And now he is the Epstein whisperer and expert.

And these relationships, they keep bringing me back to the same question. Is this just a story about individual moral failure? Or is it about something bigger? Is it about a culture that has been so seduced by money, status, access, and sex that it helped longer their reputation of a known predator for years? I know that a lot of people are really angry right now because there have been very few

people who have paid the price for this, especially in public life. And I think I can tell why many

“people see this as black and white. But not everyone does of course. And that's why I wanted to have”

this conversation with journalist Holly Peterson. She wrote about this phenomenon this weekend in the Wall Street Journal in a story. That is about how this is more complicated than just black and white. She says she knows because she was born into this world. She knows Golan Maxwell. She Golan even went to one of her book parties. The idea of him. She was also at a party that Epstein attended. So she intimately knows the people who were around Jeffrey Epstein, even after

his crimes were known. And I wanted her to explain this to me. I wanted her to explain the psychology to me of these people and why they would continue to spend time of Jeffrey Epstein to give me the nuance to make me understand what if there is really a Grey Zone. I'm curious to hear if you are convinced that there is a Grey Zone. Of course, leave your comments. That is how we keep this community going and hit that subscribe button too because that also helps to keep the community going. But I want

to hear. Do you think that I have a blind spot that I am being too I guess too much of a skull? Is it because I know the victims and the extent of these heinous crimes? Do you think some people were just unfairly swept up in the Epstein files? I'd be curious to hear what you think.

“So definitely leave a comment and listen to this interview. I think you'll find it fascinating.”

Holly, thanks so much for coming on the show. You and I go way back to covering Epstein back in 2020. You were on the power of the Maxwell series talking about Glenn Maxwell who you knew and you've written about Epstein many times through the perspective of what you have dubbed the Accomplisher class and in your latest piece in the Wall Street Journal titled "How did Epstein snare so many otherwise savvy people?" You explain why this group of strivers the Accomplisher class ended up

essentially dumb making Epstein and spending time with him. But I guess what I really gather from

this story as black and white. You're kind of saying there's a gray area here and that's what you

“explore in the Wall Street Journal. I see just everyone go out and read this piece but thanks for”

coming on the show. Well, thank you for having me Tara. I do believe there's one question as I said in the piece, "Rises above the filthy thrust of the Epstein side" which is what were all these people with pristine reputations thinking. Why were they going to his house? Why were they going to his island? Why were they bantering with him on email? It just, it absolutely makes no sense. These people who of, for the most part in New York are self-made, right? Like the old Protestant

establishment is kind of a thing of last century. There's not many signs of wealthy people who were running any corporations at all. It's hard to think of one except maybe someone in the Johnson family of J&J. But in any case, most of these people are self-made. They are big strivers. They're very competitive with each other. And when you've gone from saving a cop sign or any kind of lower

middle income person and you're suddenly super rich and live in Manhattan and you're powerful,

there's a lot of insecurity and adjustment that's gone on in your soul and in your psyche to get there over the decades. And one would think that often the people that have reached that level of success can kind of relax. But what I see around me having grown up in Manhattan and having grown up in this set is massive insecurity and insatiability will desire to keep going,

“to keep having a second, third act. And it's fascinating to watch. And I think that the psyche”

of these people is something you and I need to talk about in order to understand why someone would go to dinner at his house. Yeah, no, I think you're right. I mean, they're definitely different groups of people, not everyone should be canceled for being on Epstein's emails or on the in the black book. I struggle with it myself, sometimes I think to myself, am I just being a little bit of a scold or a hearto when I think like, well, how could you associate with him at all? Because I mean,

I knew about Jeffrey Epstein after 2008 and after he went to jail because I worked at the New York post and if you are someone like the accomplished class, you were reading Page 6, you were reading the New York post which covered Jeffrey Epstein's breast. But you know, I struggle with this. So I'm kind of like happy that you came on to talk about it. But for the perspective of the audience, so like you said, you grew up among these people, but your father is very accomplished. She was a

secretary of commerce. He ran a number of banks and kind of came from a similar background, right? He was even like a Greek background. My father grew up in a coffee shop that is Greek father started in the 20s. They came over as a means and he was a lucky man at the right time. He graduated from college in the 50s and it was a boom time in America and he was at University of Congo and Milton

Friedman and George Schultz and all kinds of amazing accomplished men at that time were there

who kind of brought him into their world and brought him into Washington and brought him into corporate life and he obviously he succeeded on his own and was self-made. So I grew up with one of these people

“and I guess what I'd like to say is that gave me an understanding of how these people operate, right?”

And yeah, era, it's unarrading these people and it's not judging these people. It's just analyzing why someone else and I need to also really make clear. These were not the people that were there for sex. It was the random people like a lawyer from Goldman or a lawyer from another firm or doctors or life gurus that like Peter Etia who just were bantering back and forth with him whether they went to the island, the dinner, or whatever. And I'm trying to come up with reasons,

thoughtful people would do that. A lot of thoughtful people didn't, right? But of those that do, I think they were greedy. I think they were ambitious. I think they are constantly networking. And I think Epstein was very good at setting a table and curating a table where people felt like they had to go and they'd get something out of it, right? So you might meet a trustee from an Ivy League school there. You might meet someone as a member of a golf club. You want to get into. You might

meet someone who's going to put 100 million into your venture. And you know, the host has a shady

pass, but a Hudbrook is there and all these senator Mitchell's there. So you kind of think, well, if these big shots are there, I can go, I can go for a night because I need this thing. So people park their way through their accused, yeah, two men, senator Mitchell and a Hudbrook,

extracurlicals. But I think there were other people around this table that weren't involved

in the sex who were there for curiosity reasons. And, you know, these people feel invincible. Look at what they've done with their lives. And they, and there's a sense of curiosity. So I, so I kind of go through the various reasons why someone would engage with this person. Again, I'm not, I'm not exonerating them, but I'm explaining the thinking or the loss.

“Well, I think about, you mentioned a lawyer from Goldman helping him. And I think of Kathy”

Rumler, who was, I don't know, Obama's deputy White House counsel. And she was a girl, like, what you're saying, she came from a sort of, not, you know, average middle class background, goes on to Georgetown Law and it's up in the White House. Then she goes to Goldman,

where she's making $24 million a year. And she's cooing to Epstein over emails because he gave her

a broken bag and a spa treatment at the four seasons. The thing that really disturbed me about her, again, was in those emails. She's basically referring to the victims as, as if they were prostitutes and helped him to try to kill the story about the interview that Virginia Dufrey was about to give to ABC news. Like, she was involved in helping with that advising at the very least. So like, there's a part of me that's like, what about like, women? Do you know what I mean? And other women?

And, and it just that, like, she obviously doesn't have her job anymore. Goldman Sachs, they defend her for a very long time. In fact, Tony Frateau, who was the White House press secretary, who is now under George Bush, who is now at Goldman. He defended her for a very, very long time,

“like a shockingly long time to me. And a tax CNN for their early reporting on this. And I think”

about Kathy. And I just, I don't know. I don't have a ton of sympathy for her to be honest. And I mean, I look at Peter Tia and I think, you know, he's talking to Epstein about how he needs to hire this model for his, you know, his, his longevity or his, you know, old care business. And it's like, well, why do you need a model for that? He's worried about her OVISA because if she leaves the modeling firm, it's according to the emails, she won't, she won't be, you know, able to say

and continue to work for him. Like, they're 100 to people out there. Thousands of people out there, who I'm sure would be happy to take a job for him. He doesn't need a model. You know what I'm saying? There's something, and like, obviously, we know what he said about. I, I get, and this could be because I know the survivors so well. And I've looked at it through that perspective where I don't give them a benefit of the doubt. And I'm like, trying really hard to, I really am.

Yeah. No, I, I think that very few people are even trying to give them a benefit of the debt era. And again, this is not trying to exon, well, I'm trying to explain what on earth they were thinking.

Tina Brown, who had an advantage for forever and whose daily base was the first one to publish

the story in 2008, was invited by Peggy Seagull to have a dinner with Woody Allen at Jeffrey Epstein's house. And she famously said, what is this? A predator's ball? I won't be going. So there's sort of, yeah, who didn't go, right? And you like to think you would have been that person, however, in the room like a situation because lawyers are careful people and that their job is to study ramifications and consequences, right? That's what they do. And why accepting shoes,

libutons, and Birkin bags, and spa days, from some guy who you're kind of advising, kind of not advising, you know, just, it doesn't seem appropriate. If someone sent me heels or $20,000 back, I wouldn't accept it. I would think, what's the play here, right? You don't want to be in debt. I mean, people offer me sports tickets sometimes. And I'm like, I don't want them because now I owe you something. You know, it's like, there's a given take that goes on with manners and politeness,

“that when someone gives you something that you're expected to remember that, right? And in this”

case, when you're accepting something from someone who's a convicted criminal, you just don't want to be doing that. So I don't understand, frankly, why certain people, especially women, would engage. They were doctors that engaged, there were bankers that engaged, there were a doobin, up until the bitter end, literally. You've a doobin, a doctor. And there were other doctors, there were plenty of doctors at Mount Sinai who apparently went over there and set up an operating

table on his dining room table with lights and assistants and everything. I mean, you just think of like, this is crazy. This is absolutely crazy. You're a doctor. You get a call and you get asked to fix a young woman's head on an older man's dining room table. It just, I really don't understand it,

would engage with him at all that we're not interested in sex presumably, right? Like Kathy

Room, like Brad Carp, who's a guy, everyone in New York adores the lawyer. You know, I have to try to come up with a reason and to the extent that our country's super messed up right now.

“I think it's, I think it's because we don't analyze the gray anymore. It's either their idiots”

or they're okay because they said no, but sometimes people make mistakes, sometimes people are but shady, sometimes people really want something and lose their judgment. And it's important to talk about the gray, right, and analyze the gray. And again, I'm not exonerating, but I think people went for a bunch of reasons. There was unbelievable networking. He was very manipulative and dangled people in front of people who he knew the other person would really want because they want

their kid to get into college or they want a job or they want funding. And when you really want something, sometimes you're so desperate, you think, all right, well, I'm not going to get caught doing this one thing to get to Michael, right? And that's part of old and feeling invincible and not thinking, of course, but I'm just explaining why, why these people did this. Steven, then as you even mentioned, Brad Carpe, today news comes out about Brad Carpe and

everyone adored him, right? And he had this big, you had a chairmanship position at all ways. And now in the New York Times today, we learned that Brad Carpe was helping Leon Black to try to block a Russian woman from getting her visa because of her sexual entanglements with Leon Black through Jeffery. So he was indeed, you know, this wasn't just like an invite

“to a dinner party. He was trying to harm the lives of Victor, wasn't he?”

We needed to do a second show and you and I need to spend some time analyzing who we think actually

was 100% not interested in sex. Katie Kirk went to his house. Maybe she wanted an interview. I can't believe Katie Kirk went at sex, right? I don't believe he can't think of that. But I'm like, but I'm also like, why, like, I don't know, for access, you're going to hang out with a sex that's under for access to board Andrew. AJB killers, you know, in Russia, in my 20s, trying to get interviews with them. I mean, who knows what she was doing. To me, I'm like,

but that was all about getting like William and Kate, that was like the puff moment of she was chitter on time and everybody wanted access to William and Kate, which is why George Stephanopoulos went there. Katie Kirk went there. So when you think about that, it's not like what you were doing to get to KGB killers is like to me at least offering value to public service in a way that justifies the ends to the means. I don't really give a shit about an interview with Kate and

William, who are inevitably going to do an interview, it's just a matter of who with. Again, it's the ambitious side. It's the ambitions and yeah, I guess when you talk about, oh, even though you are not interested in Kate, a lot of people are, right? I worked at ABC News for a long time. Sometimes we covered coups, sometimes we covered golf force and sometimes we covered O.J. and Tanya Nancy, right? Yeah. And often a lot of news organizations, I was at Newsweek.

Again, ABC, now I write for the journal I've written for the New York Times, the Financial Times. Yeah. Sometimes we, things, and sometimes we don't, right? So I'm not, I hate you a bit, but I like to think there's no way on, and I like to think anyone of my family or my close friends, and Tanya's a friend, you know, would have said absolutely no. But a lot of people that went, and I happened to think ambition in New York among a certain set of hugely accomplished people

is so rabid and so repatious that it's this single-minded, I've got to get more. I've got to keep achieving, I want more, I want my kids to have more, and I'm going to park my judgment for four hours in order to get it, because I'm feeling desperate and I want to be number one. Or I've already done this, and I'm starting a whole new thing, and it has to be as successful as the first thing. That is the explanation in my mind, discussing the gray, right, about why people

network with unsavory people sometimes. It's quite a simple thesis. I explained a million examples

of that, and a million reasons for the things and people's psychies that would push them to do that.

“But that's, I think, the reason, if we're coming up with a reason, why would these people do this,”

who presumably weren't interested in sex? Right. I mean, they were interested in the access, because that's a great, there's not, there's no way every single person that was bantering with him was interested in slipping with a woman. No, you're right. I mean, I wrote an entire piece

like right when Biden came in in 2021, and it was like a pyramid, and at the bottom of the pyramid, were the society women, essentially, who continued to spend time with him and sort of whitewash his, they whitewash him. They laundered his reputation, which is what he needed. I mean, he couldn't even give money to charities. They wouldn't take it. So he needed these women like Peggy Seagull. He needed Eva Dubin. He needed Melanie Walker, who was working for the Gates Foundation around him.

He's accomplished women that people looked up to to kind of rehabilitate himself into society. And I do think you're right. I mean, there, there is a part of it that seems like it's the accomplisher class. Like you mentioned, but there's a little bit of old money sprinkled in there, too. You know, you have Prince Andrew, obviously the oldest of old money goes back to a of the modern world. You need a sex, right? That's that's the angle for him. He was a little desperate

on the sex front, and obviously, compromise to begin with. But thinking of old money, and you think of anyone who's old money, who's running a big bank or a big firm in New York, I have a lot of trouble coming up with that. I really, I really, I don't mean of, we went to and over Exeter Harvard, Yale, and then we just kind of automatically get this job. I feel like that really started to crumble in the 80s with the greedy's good speech in Wall Street. And when

these go getters were more able to take these positions away from these essentially entitled

“wastes who weren't as gritty as the people who wanted it more and came from refer backgrounds, right?”

And all those people, which, and then you sprinkle in a bunch of immigrants who were coming from countries where, you know, they were prosecuted or had liberty or whatever, like my great parents did. And they're hungry. They're really, really, really hungry, and they want more, getting a lot, and then they want even more. It's basically new money, chips on their shoulders, wanting to get into what you called, dinners with Epstein's Lashley Island quote, it was like a

private club. There's another amazing, oh, in your book, in this, which I want to read for our

listeners, and that's only going to read this story. It's great. But when a new list came out, I had a dinner, you're quoting a, you and Riley, the co-founder of BDA partners. You and was not engaging with Epstein. He just told me a funny story about Epstein that's in the piece, but go ahead, tell the story. Yeah, so he's quoted as saying, when a new list came out, I had a dinner partner who first that he hoped he wasn't in the black book.

Then he checked his phone right there under the table and said, oh, thank God I am.

“So why would someone say that? Right? Why would someone say that? I think it's also really”

important for listeners to understand this, this class of accomplished people.

It's people who've knocked the ball out of the park, right? It's not always big money,

because big money is from finance, or from being a big partner in a law form, or from real estate. There's not a lot of industries in New York where you're going to make money, right? There's no oil in New York, and there's not these industries like Hollywood that are here so much. So a lot of people are running foundations, they're running museums, they're news anchors who are obviously very well paid. They're publishers, right?

There are a lot of people who are equal to the people who have a couldjelian times more money because they're so successful in what they do. And that's really the bar of these type of people who hang out and endlessly network each other and circumnavicate the globe from Davos to Aspen ideas to whatever else conference around the world where they can increase their power,

increase their access, and advance themselves for their children in ways that aren't always

super clean. Favorite banks and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, like it's all about the network, as you say, about you get more rich by spending time with rich peoples, essentially, but you write. You get some insight into the mood in New York. I mean, you mentioned that each DOJ dumb brought a anxiety people who have spent time with Epstein, like, what's the feeling on the ground right now? Well, why wouldn't it, right? I mean, I'm sure, you know, there's millions of pages.

So you and I need to keep having these conversations because there's a lot more that's going to come out.

“But I think the mood is general paranoia, you know, cancel culture is very, very strong.”

People made mistakes. People were cheating on their wives. People were wanting something.

life, right? Like not everyone who rises above everyone else is super clean the whole time, right?

“Like a lot of times there's trampling, a lot of times there's a bit of shady maneuvering, right?”

And it could be higher. My son, it could be, you know, let my daughter do this or I'll invest in your project, you invest in my project. It doesn't mean it's lawful, right? It just means there's networking that is just not fair, right? That's really what it is. It's not fair to everyone else. And so if these people are doing that affair amount with each other and hanging out together and enriching themselves because of it with more success or more money or both, you know,

there's a huge liability to these people's reputations for having gone and having

interacted in any way. Now, if you've accepted presence from this guy, you're super screwed.

I don't know how you get out of that. I mean, I don't know how you, especially someone who raises raise so much money in an independent woman who can buy that stuff. I mean, that just shows that just shows pure greed, right? And to want to advise him, I don't worry this will go away. I mean, I don't know how much we should be very careful how we talked about people, but I don't think we're going to look into a lot of the stuff. Okay. I mean, I really don't know what I read was a

little more like, don't worry. You're going to get through this, this fitness isn't credible, not like she was like prepping him for something. But in any case, she took, she took his side, which is, oh, I didn't know. I mean, it's kind of file convicted pedophile. No, I'm, let's face it. At 38 skincare is everything. I tried to hold on to that collagen. That's where I'm really excited to try OS one face moisturizer and eye cream because it's dermatologist tested and backed

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Yeah, I thought about it though, and I'm like, and I thought about like the middle class, like I come from a middle class background, and I thought about it, and like whether we ever had people around us with shady past that we forgave. You know what I mean? But I guess I wasn't really around people with money that I needed my parents were trying to get working. What was the trolling in Museum or controlling or controlling? Yeah, we were just regular

people. And when you look at the Epstein files, it's like you don't really see, you know, I thought that I'm like, well, you don't see any trades, man. You don't see any nurses. You don't see any teachers. But then I did think about all the people that did work for him. They were happy to work for him while he was, you know, they were his butler. They were his pilot. They were the, you know, the guy Larry Vassaski, you went out and bought the little pin cameras and put them in Kleenex boxes so

that he could surveil his guess. And you know, I went and I knocked on their doors for the broken Jeffrey Epstein podcast with Virginia, and I've got to tell you for a retired butler and retired pilot, they were living pretty large. I mean, they had beautiful homes, which made me think that Epstein was paying them really well, which suggests to me that like everyone does have a price. Yeah. And I think that's the type novel, by the way, everyone has a price, right? Like how,

“what do you, when I say, I think it's important to talk about this. I just think it's really”

interesting, right? And just saying, all people with money are evil and slippery and the only way

they got it is by networking and all this nefarious stuff and everyone who didn't is fine and never

does that, you know, I mean, that's just not a sophisticated way to to think about what's going on, right? So I like to look at the gray and I like to consider all those things and, you know, a lot of people are shady at certain times in their life and a lot of people are never are, right? And money makes you more entitled. It makes you different then. It gives you things other people's other people can't have. Like, if you go to Disney World, you're going to spend $700

so that you can cut all the lines when you have little kids. Is that a great message for your kids? Now that's what you're thinking. But you remember, when you were hiring handicapped people to help

literally hiring handicapped people. That what kind of lesson is that to your child?

“I mean, it's, it's insane, right? And there's a million studies. I love this, I love this fact. A”

million studies prove into equal and opposite reaction. Your empathy goes down as you get more money.

Why does that happen? Yeah, because there's more and more, like you're never satisfied,

right? Like you have a boat, but wouldn't it be great to have a chaser boat where you could like put stuff and, you know, those ski, skidoo things, whatever people ski on in the water, just skis, you know, and so greedy people get credier, unfortunately. And they lose their empathy, because they have more. And they want more. Why does that happen? I don't know. It's Shakespearean. I mean, it's, it's what literature is about. Why do people who have more

careless and loser empathy? It makes no sense. But in a lot of instances, it's true. Yeah. It's, I mean, we wouldn't have an fashion industry without it. We wouldn't have, like,

“there are so many industries that live off of this kind of opulence, right? And been around”

forever. Yeah. Operation. And that's part of the American Dream, right? That's part of the great part of America, right? It is, it's being more and willing to be sweaty. I was talking to Plum Sikes. It's a pretty well-known writer from England. She wrote for Vogelot this morning. And she was saying, you know, aspiration and sweating is not okay in England. And it's true. In a lot of European kind of fancy classes, having to try to do something is seen as, like,

lower class somehow. It is. They don't work. So America, if you actually talk to the doctor, you're still a working class person. As a journalist, we are working, like, because you, because you work, because they don't, you know, the money people just have assets. But yeah, I do, the thing that's still like that strikes me is the culture of silence around all of it. It's just like, I mean, once you got something from Deffrey or you got, I mean,

that's everything that I learned from the survivors and from really digging into

the case files is that when they went through his home or the first raid back in 2005,

they found tons of explorers all over the walls, young girls. It was, it was clear that this man was perverted. And I think when you look, you walk into a home. So, I just feel like there's something off about that to me. You know, it's like, there's, I can't answer 100%. Like, you, Holly, like, I've been to houses and places as a reporter that just skieved me out. I've had to talk to gross people for stories. Like, there's no doubt about that.

I just like the chummyness that you cover. Yeah, I mean, I do it every day. Basically, yeah. But, you know, the chummyness of it all, the silence around it, that's the part that gets me, like, like, really gets me. Like, when I read the emails between Michael Wolff and Jeffrey

“Epstein, and he's like, you have to suck it up to spit it out. And I'm like, well, when were you”

going to spit it out? You know, like, you're sucking it for a real long time, Michael. And also you wanted him to buy New York Magazine with you and Harvey Weinstein at one time. You know, it was like, you clearly, and you're giving him a, a relationship advice and you're a journalist. And yet, you're even being silent about Jeffrey Epstein and everything. That is so clearly going on there, that's odd. So, I don't know, how do you explain the culture of silence among this

class of accomplices, new voice, whatever you want to call them? I don't really use the word new voice, because that's like, somehow, like, you, I don't know. That means like tacky, right? Does it tag like, yeah, there should be like that. These are self-made people who made a lot of money, right? And it, um, hugely accomplished people that work in philanthropy and foundations and publishing houses and all of this, the culture of silence. I, you know, I can't answer that. I have no

idea. I mean, I, I, a human nature is always evil. The more you have. But I did do an, they talking about

the networks that help each other among this group of people, right? And it's, it's such an understanding and parts of it aren't of various. It's not 14-year-old girls usually. It's usually like giving someone an unfair up as I was saying earlier that that keeps these people kind of protecting each other and bonded. I mean, it's basically the worst or the worst of ones assumptions about people who have more than, right, that there's the 1% that got it all illegally, that got it all

in bad ways that don't care about anyone else that have lost all their empathy. And the Jeffrey Epstein story fascinates all of it because all of us because it basically proves that, right? And

things of, you know, people's rights and civil rights. And he said, why is it better? Why is it better

“to civil rights? Why is that better? And we realized society is a chain, right? And you have a”

weak link and everyone goes down, right? So a few of this 1% having everything and 99% of society with less than and not enough and not too cars and not, you know, care for the children and not good medical care and not good anything going on. It ruins all of society, right? And why there isn't more, let's help each other among the most wealthy is just a Shakespearean, I don't know. I really don't know, I don't have an answer. But I will say from the insuffin, because I've been afforded

proximity to this, there's a voraciousness and a rapacious ambition that that blinds people. And I have seen that in action because you get something you really, really, really want. I mean, you speak about Brad Carp, you know, he also wanted golf club memberships and you know how men are with a golf, like they'll do anything to play golf, right? So I mean, would have dinner at a gross person's house if we would get them lifelong membership into a club. So as to me, it's a great thing.

I'm just trying to explain why, right? Yeah, not fair. I guess it makes sense, like, you know, I don't know, but human nature is complex, right? So not every single person is a repatiously ambitious evil soul, right? There's a lot of wealth, I mean, the system of American philanthropy

“is astoundingly generous and bigger than any other country on the planet, right?”

Build museums or hospitals because of the tax right off. So it is because tax right off. Yes, that was about to say that, of course, it is, but nonetheless, it works, right? So there are people with money who get inordinate percentages of their money to help others and don't need it and don't want it and don't spend it. And there was something called the giving pledge a while back, or, you know, anyone who was really, really rich, I would made a lot of money just said right away,

once they hit a certain number half of it, at least we're giving away. And I noticed these techie guys don't do that. The giving pledge cause kind of gone up. And so, you know, there's still a lot of giving in America. So there's some, there's some good efforts amongst these people.

“But I do love some of the more ridiculous charities, like, you know, save the sea turtles or,”

you know, save many other things. But still, I guess sea turtles, we need them, right? They're cute. But they're probably a lot of, you mean, so I could use two. But there's a lot of charities and there's a lot of ways to help people with the tax system that's advantageous to that and that and that is a good thing. And there are also a ton of people I know in New York with means,

without means, without power, without power, we're never in a million years ago. So I don't know

about you, but I don't want to walk around saying, you know, everybody who was invited went, that's way too depressing. I like to think, put it gone. And then I like to think, you know, the hundred people that I'm closest to wouldn't have gone either. And I, and I pretty much would choose to believe that. You know, a friend of mine said, she asked her boss, you know, did you ever go to Epstein's house because he was a big hedge fund guy. And he said he just heard

that he was shady. Everyone. So, you know, there are a lot of people I've heard the same thing where they're like, he was a shady guy. But everyone else I know is just staying up all night, typing names into J-mailing today at the DOJ to see if they can find the window in the Epstein files. I would love to be, how many people were invited and said no versus how many people were invited and said yes, actually to his house? Yeah, it's a good question.

I thought that the last line of your piece was brilliant. And I want to get to that. But first,

you have met Jeffrey Epstein. You know, Galen Maxwell, which we talked about on power of the Maxwell's, she showed up at your book party in Bright Pink for one of, uh, one woman's this book party back in 2014, maybe, or 2015. Yeah. I wrote four kind of saucy novels about this set. And they all came out like, yeah, 27 to 2007 to 2015, maybe something like that. You know, if you were my age, which I'm not going to say exactly, but call it late 50s-ish. And you were out and about New York.

to show up at anything, right? She's one of those women you would say. She'd show up at the opening

of an envelope. I mean, she went to book party. She did several laps and night at museum openings. I mean, she was just everywhere all the time and she just zeroed in on people around the room to connect with them, right? Not for the sex thing, but just to kind of know everyone. That's

“how she, that's how she operated, right? And so a lot of us knew her, she was kind of crazy and”

charming and unhinged. You know, there was something she was trying to save the oceans. She was sit down and say, I'm absolutely doing Galen up. Yeah. You know, it's like, well, you're talking about, right? You know, I mean, you're working to help what? Like, you're not saving the ocean singlehandedly.

So she was definitely odd and out there. I never met Jeffrey Epstein, but I remember I was in a room

with him and he was a creepy, creepy dude in the corner in a gray tracksuit, not a tracksuit. Like, an Adidas or Nike, big sweatpants and hoodie type of thing. And I think that's just a narcissistic kind of attention getting screw you to the hosts and the other people at the party or dressed in jackets and ties. Like, I don't need to, I don't need to wear anything. I can show up in my pajamas. I'm so important, right? And it's kind of a dison everyone else. And apparently he did that all the time.

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speak with my trusted partner, chapter or go to askchapter.org/curry. I've thought a lot about Glenn and how she acted based on my reporting and the fact that, you know, for the 50th birthday, she put together this book and it was very kind of highly sexualized. In the 40th birthday, she had a friend of her sing a wrong-she-song in front of all of these elite people about how Jeffrey Epstein had 24-hour erections and had a school girls that he'd get chased around and

actually can listen to the song here. But, you know, I thought about it and it's what years the 40th birthday? It's 40th birthday. Yeah. Yeah. When would he have been 40? Well,

“because that was before he was arrested. Yeah. Yeah. So before he, yeah, I think I mean,”

he might go on. Yeah. Yeah. So this is, I should start off again. So I've thought about it and how Glenn Maxwell was certainly grooming the elites around her, not just the girls. When you think about the fact that, you know, she had them submit these cards for the 50th birthday and they were all sort of wrong-she-and-referencing his sexual levities and then the 40th birthday, which I learned, she had a song written for him about his 24-hour erections and his love of school girls and

she had that sang in front of a lot of very elite people and it sort of reminds me that this was a grooming of society to think that this is normal in some ways, you know, that this is this kind of activity. I mean, I heard that she would walk up to people and just talk about sex openly and she was very kind of provocative and this was her MO, really. Was that she tried to make, she tried to maybe she thought she was helping people drop their guard around Epstein or

around them and this in this lifestyle they lived. Did you get the feeling that she was sort of

“grooming the people around her? Are you okay with her behavior?”

Mark, jump the shark, you know. She's one of those people that you talked to her and you're kind of like, oh, she's charming, she's British, she knows the royals, you know, this is assuming you're not, you don't know about the whole Jeffrey Epstein thing but she's kind of intriguing and funny and kind of weirdly a little too warm and then she'll say something that just jumps the shark that's a little off and then just suddenly that colors the whole way you see or you know, you see or in a new

light we're just like there's something about you that is missing a barometer on understanding conversation, understanding how you sound in the conversation and so she was out that way. There was

if they were, they were not very thoughtful people but to me she was someone who was alluring, amusing and kind of do your seven minutes at a cocktail around her and gracefully exit, you know, you don't want to like be hanging out. This is the song that the Len Maxwell's friend, Christopher Mason wrote and saying aloud for Jeffrey Epstein at a sporey birthday. He wakes when the cock crow is what everyone slumbles. He rivals Einstein when he's crunching

those numbers, tort math adult and the naughty boy blushes to think of school girls and all of that crushes. Very creepy. Holly, I love the last line of the piece and I want to read it for everyone.

It's interesting and it's a good point that's never really been made before that

compared to the people he learned into his layer, Epstein never accomplished anything. And I thought that was a really smart point. If that is that he wasn't in fact working

“from a side. Did you ever think of yourself that maybe he was working for an intelligent patient?”

I look back and think about a lot of things. At the time, you know, I met him. It was before 2008 and I've never understood so much about him. I know what to this day. No one understands how he made his money. But one things for sure, you know, he wanted to be my theory is, you know, he invited all these people, he manipulated all these people because he wanted to be one of them. Right. He wanted to be viewed as equal to one of them. He wanted to be in essence someone who was

in the black book of Gilan and other wealthy and connected successful people's contacts. Right. They accomplished her class as I call it. But he wasn't. And it could have been one of the roots of his hostility and anger and evil nature that he was burning with some fury knowing that everyone around him had succeeded in these

“gargantuan ways by running random house or running this network or being a new zanker,”

being a banker, running a huge law firm, you know, and he never had anything to show.

Right. He wasn't equal to any of them. He never did anything. He never accomplished anything. Right. And we live in a society where it's perfectly visible what somebody does, right. Even if you're a hedge fund person, people know exactly what fees you're getting. You know, exactly how much money you have under management. You can calculate how much they're making a year based on the partners, you know, investment bankers are helping certain clients to get funding for R&D or whatever.

I mean, doctors are working on this. We know what each other is doing. There's not many people running around American society and going to dinner parties where we're like, "Who the hell are you and what have you done and why you sew rich?" And nobody, nobody knows one thing. I mean, maybe some oligarch, but even the oligarchs we know, they were given Stilich and Ivanka. They were given the equivalent of Amtrak. You know, I mean, they were given these huge state

industries to own and run personally. But it's very hard to think of a person who is any one of consequence like him who had the power to gather so many people who to this day with the ink and the time and the sweat of reporters and victim advocates and lawyers spent on this story. We still have no idea how we got all that money. I happened to think it was Robert Maxwell's money. I happened to think it was Gulen's father's money, but that he had a way.

“But that's why it's never gave him a lot of money. Yeah, he wrote a way.”

Eland, who was his favorite in the youngest and he gave it to Jeffrey to kind of here's 500 mill, invest it, deal with it. You spend a bunch of it, but give it time as much as you can to Eland. I mean, I do know from, you know, talking to Gulen Gulen at the time, she would get really upset and felt that she couldn't leave absolutely. And I wondered if he helped money over her.

And that was part of it. I have always felt absolutely sure of that. I don't believe he made

all this money from lesswex and early on black who obviously overpaid him for some reasons that we still don't understand whether it was briving them to be quite or he actually thought they gave good tax advice. I don't know. But I do think Robert Maxwell had some extra money. I think Eland was his favorite. He named his his boat, the Lady Keyland when he had eight other kids or whatever it is. And what I've seen about these men in New York who have a lot of money, they're just

not generous dudes. They may give a museum because it helps them tax-wise and it helps their

13 million dollar townhouses filled with pateral paintings in it. It just doesn't happen if they're

not even married. Yeah, right? That's just so much money. Unless you're trafficking girls for him. Working from which he was. Well, 20, 20 years ago, 13 million dollar townhouses like crazy

“money money. Right? That's like 40 today. Or just buy some, check your dating that. So I think that was”

that was fun only. Perhaps. So how was he fun only? Why was he fun? Because it was our daddy's money. Well, I do recommend everyone. Yeah. And top of after you read Holly's story, there is a great piece out in the New York Times called how Epstein helped solve, hold on one second, a billionaires

problems with women. The Wall Street Titan Leon Black paid at Jeffrey Epstein $100 in 70 million

dollars for what he said was tax in a state work, but his services went beyond that. And that included

“paying what I got a lot of room to grow on this story. I think we think there's a lot of”

British state secrets. I mean, I just think this is going to keep going. So keep up the

work. That great to have you on the show as always. And thanks for giving us that valuable insight

and perhaps helping wrap my head around things that I've been struggling with. So thank you.

“That was another episode of the Tara Palmeri show. Thank you so much for tuning in. He's”

like subscribe. Great. Follow share this with all of your friends. Head to Tara Palmeri.com. Read my exclusive reporting. I really get into the New Degree details. I spent my weekend calling around trying to find out what's really happening in Washington. And I want to deliver to you, but you can help support me and my mission by going to Tara Palmeri.com, signing up for the red letter newsletter. It's a way to support my controllers. I'm a lot of thank my producer,

Dan Schiff-Mocker, Abby Baker who does my booking production. She does social media. She's everywhere and Adam Stewart who handles my thumbnails and Dan rose in my manager. Thanks again for tuning in. .