#853: Jordan Jonas, Champion of Alone — The Art of Survival, Lessons from Nomadic Tribes, Hardship as the Path to Peace, How to Handle Rogue Wolverines, and Why Not to Photograph Attacking Bears

Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world's class performers. People who are incredibly good, possibly the best in the world. At what they do, my guest today is Jordan Jonas. I spent a week in the woods with Jordan, with a few my closest friends doing survival

“training and all of my friends said you have to have Jordan on the podcast. So here we are,”

who is Jordan? Jordan grew up on a farm in Idaho, wrote freight trains across the US,

hence his Instagram @hobojordo, spent time in remote Russian villages, first trapped and traveled

for years with nomads in Siberia, and one alone season six, one of the few reality TV shows that I actually watch because you learn so much and he won that after being the first contestant to truly thrive in the wilderness. In this case in the Arctic, for 77 days and harvest big game. It's a crazy story. We get into it. He now leads people from all over the world, including yours truly and all walks of life on extraordinary outdoor adventures, facilitating once in a lifetime,

wilderness expeditions, hunts family adventures and team building events. He is wife and three children and focuses on living life to its fullest with them. And that's the truth. I have spent time with them and Jordan is a model for living the good life, not over complicating, focusing on the

things that truly matter. The critical few over the trivial many, and I've learned a lot from Jordan

“and I think you can too. We get perfect timing for the dogs to have a spaz attack with that.”

Please enjoy this conversation with Jordan Jonas and be sure to check him out at Jordan Jonas JORD-A-N-J-O-N-A-S.com and on Instagram and YouTube, Hobo that's H-O-B-O, Jordan O-J-O-R-D-O. Thanks for listening. Jordan, great to see you, man. Good to see you, too. And we've upgraded our interaction to in person because for those who are listening, we had some audio glitches, some technological woes, and we just decided to do it in person. And I have twice the number of pooches, meaning

two versus one since he last saw me. He got a stray adopted a few days ago. We're also drinking what people might think are ridiculously heavy pores of whiskey, but this is not whiskey. This is Lake Missoula tea company, Lake Missoula breakfast. It is delicious. Just a bit of caffeine, a little bit of a topper. Let's call it down. Yeah, we just both arrived as some city we're not from, so. At high altitude. And we're just getting back into the group of the conversations. So we are

going to get to Russia, but first I wanted you to, and they used to tie together, I suppose.

Explain what we have here on the table besides the tea, because you made the joke, you'd have the interviews not going very well. Might as well have this. Yeah, the handle is pointed towards you. What are we looking at? What we're looking at is an axe. It's one I've kind of designed specifically using the knowledge and experience I have had in Siberia in particular with the native folks and such. So it's got some unique features. Some that I've really grown to love.

So in the forest, first off, just the set the foundation. The one tool you need is an axe to give yourself a chance at survival. More than a knife. More than a knife. You can do all the things you can do with a knife. You can get through, you know, you can get a fire. You can build some traps. You can get through the ice. You can, you know, it just kind of gives you the ability to do everything, maybe not as well as you want. But as the natives would say, the one until you need

as an axe. And I concur. So the problem, though, is that a lot of people in the states don't know what a good axe is. And so you'll go buy one at lows and go home. And it doesn't do the job you need. So I did design one that has all the features I like. It's kind of a Siberian axe head shape with some of the event key modifications and then key being the native people here. The native nomadic folks that I lived with, they live in the woods all the time. So they kind of know what they

they like. So some of the features of this axe in particular, most interestingly is it's sharpened

“from one side. It's like a single bevel. It's a single bevel grind, which means you have to have a”

right or a left handed axe based on what you are. But what that allows you to do is when you're in the woods, very often you'll be carving things, whether you're building this layer, building the

it do accurate work that way. It also on most trees that you chop down in the woods, they're

“quite narrow. You're rarely chopping down a giant, you know, cedar tree. Here, you're going to be”

joven down things about the size of your arm and couple swings with this bevel design and you can slice right through them. Assuming it is matched to your dominant hand, right? So they're sticking instead of deflecting. Exactly. Exactly. So if you picture a bevel and hitting against the tree, if it's ground off on that side, there's a bit of a deflection and by grinding it from the opposite side, when it hits that tree, it just bites right in. I guess you have some experience with

deflecting deflection. Oh, yes, we do. And yeah, just to finalize a few last points, you'll notice on a lot of American axes. They have a narrow eye and you can describe the eye. The eye is basically at the axe. What would you call it? The axioteck blade. Right. There is the hole through which the handle would fit on a Siberian axe. It's quite wide, which allows you in the field to repair it

“with a solid piece of wood. And you can slide the handle through a top like a tomahawk from the top”

the handle goes all the way on that way. When you swing, the pressure is always tightening the head.

You don't need wedges and all that, which is a cool design. There's a bunch of other little nuances to the design. I don't want to bore you too long, but Tim knows he's been up in the woods with me. And we got to use it a bunch. I got to show him how to use it. It's incredible how versatile an axe is. I mean, the number of ways that you used it also just side note. I never really thought about this, but for people who are wondering about this bevel description that I gave,

you could think of their certain chef's knives, especially Western chef's knives that are double beveled. They're sharpened from both sides in. So if you buy a cheap knife sharpener, it generally looks like a v. You're sharpening it from both sides. But if you look at a lot of Japanese chef's knives, single bevel, given the way they use it in cutting fish, kind of horizontally. And I recall seeing you and we first went out our first day in the wilderness in Montana. And just a quick sidebar,

one of my friends, because the forecast was fantastic. It was a blueberry day. And he's like,

“it was his first time going out on a real camping trip. And he's like, I think I might just leave the”

rain gear at the rental spot. And I was like, that is the last thing you just put at the bottom. If you know, if you like to just stick it somewhere. And then it was torrential downpour. We got hammered. And even though it wasn't particularly cold, you end up feeling cold very, very quickly. And when we arrived at, I suppose, the first camp, which maybe was sort of a premature stop because of the

cold in the rain. Yeah, it was pretty chilly. And it was incredible how quickly number one, my friend

Mike and I both were having trouble to zippering our jackets, even though it was not even winter. And then watching you use the axe to maybe you could describe this. But when you take a larger stick, people think of fire building. And they think of perhaps having like the fat wood. And then you have some type of cotton ball or tinder. But when you're out in the woods, you don't necessarily sure you could pack these things. But if you're improvising what blew me away was how you use the

axe to create feathers. Yeah. Can you explain what that is? You want to really sharp axe once you get control of it. You know, they're dangerous. We'll go to the deflection stories in the end. But once you're a master of the axe, you can go when a downpour, torrential downpour, chop down a dead standing tree. Because you know, you might see dead trees on the ground. But it's amazing particularly in the spring when they've spent a whole winter absorbing moisture. It's amazing how wet they

will be. And so dead standing, find something, chop it down and then split it, you know, chop it at a smaller piece out of the middle and then split that open. And once you've got to split open

you're to that dry wood. And it never gets wet because it was standing. And so you then split that

piece open a couple times. You get a nice edge on it. And then with the axe, you can just run your axe down that wood with the right amount of control and practice and make some really fine curls that'll catch a spark. So you don't even need a lighter. You don't need anything like that. And what was, what was also counterintuitive to me is you don't even have to take those off of the split. Yes, just internal wood. The easier if you don't, if you don't, if you don't

leave my big bundle of this curl. So imagine, imagine guys, if you would, you have, let's just for simplicity sick. Right, say that you have a fully intact log of wood that's about the thickness of your arm. You then, and they're very particular ways to do this safely, right? Like leaning it

that in half. So now you have, if you're looking kind of down the barrel of each of these split pieces, they're half circles. Right. And then you break those into, you chop those into even quarters. Let's say, then you stand one up and you're using the axe, which takes a lot of fine motor control to kind of shave down these thin pieces of wood that then curl as you're pushing it down. And then you go a little bit higher. You do the same thing. You do it again. You do it again.

You end up with all of these. It's almost looks like a fiddlehead furnace or something, whether all rolled together in fire making too. And survival in the woods is great to have a lighter. It's great to have matches. They all make it so much easier to start a fire, but they'll

occasionally fail you and they'll fail you when you need them the most. And so I always carry

also just a ferrored, which is, you know, it just makes sparks basically. It's great that it makes sparks, but with that you need a fine paper thin material to catch the sparks and light it

“up. And that's what you're making with the axe curls. And so we were in a big downpour, you know,”

and even that can be difficult because when it's really raining, you know, you had to be really careful that you've made all these curls that they don't get soaked before you get the spark on them. So we made a quick tri-pod, draped a tarp over it and tucked under that to actually build our fire. Made a few sparks and got that burning. You can then make some not-so-fine curls, make some really quick rough ones and throw that on top. It catches in person you have a fire,

which is amazing how life-giving it is. The most situation that everybody's depressed in what particular, like soaking wet, hands aren't really functioning. And then the fire once you get a

critical mass and you're able to warm your hands, you know, my buddy Mike, I remember you said,

he's like, yeah, no wonder we've worshipped fire for so long. Obvious. All right, so this axe, and I'm thrilled to have one of these, and we'll put up an additional shorter video on my YouTube

“channel. It's just Tim Ferriss. What is your YouTube channel? Hobo Jordo, actually. And we will”

explain why. Have an Instagram at that too, which got the videos up on. Yeah, so I'll put up some videos of the axe and maybe have you demo some of the more non-obvious ways of using it. Before we get to the rewind and looking at how on earth you ended up in Russia, let's not let go of the loose end of the deflection story. Yeah, so what does it look like if you get over enthusiastic and you don't quite have the control yet? And axe has a learning curve, especially when you have a really well-made

axe and you're swinging it hard to get the jobs you need done done. When I did go to Russia, I was a little in over my head, like I had grown up on a farm and used an axe more than probably your typical American, but not like they do over there by any means. And so these axes are they're sharper than most kitchen knives you would find in an Airbnb. I mean, they're very, very sharp. Yep, and so, oh, they just use them in a way more than I would, and I was trying to keep up,

you know, I'm trying to be productive and in doing so I was in a hurry, so this is going to take a slight bit of a backstory, but the natives over there will build these huge 30 kilometers circumference fences out of only logs interlocking. They have no nails, nothing up there, because they're none around. And so there's a specific technique to doing that, partly that involves chopping a tree down and then you step your foot on it and then you split that tree on that cut end.

You know, so you're making a big swing and swinging right where your foot sort of is. And that tree is not flat like it was cut with a saw. It's got an angle like it was cut with an axe. And so there's a real deflection possibility there if you don't have all the, you don't have it down. And so I'm trying to keep up smack hit my boot. And you know, we're in the middle of Siberia, I can't get another rubber boot. We're working in swamps. It was very disappointing. Went home,

had a cut on my foot, you know, back to home, which is a teepee. We had a cut on my foot, kind of, and it just did try to patch my boot as best I could. Go back out next day, same thing,

and make a long story short. I chopped the heck out of my boots. And then finally one of the

“native guys was like, hey, you know what, Jordan? I think five years ago, I left a boot upside down”

on a stump. Like, you know, five miles away. And so we spent a whole day. We got our reindeer, packed them up, rode these reindeer up and over the mountain. Sure enough, there's a stump with a boot upside down off. And these are natural rubber boots. And so I could like, it was smaller than my foot, but I could squeeze my foot in there and they're like, great. This is awesome. Back at it, another day or two. And swing, I chopped it. And I was so frustrated. It was annoying that I cut my

boot open. I got mad and I swung with one hand at the tree. And then here comes the, you know, the flex hop and rips right into my knee. And I hammered my knee in the long run. I went and got it.

a quite an early injury. And I stuck out there. I had to crawl back to the TPA. I knew I was kind

“of in shock. So it was like, I got to get back to the TPA before I feel this, which was a couple”

kilometers away. So I kind of just bailed out, told everybody like, I'm going back to TPA. And then I got there and man, it was a lot of pain. I had had surgery on my other knee not long before. So that was my good leg at shop. And then I was stuck in that TPA for several days. I couldn't even move. I had to like, even to poop. I had a plastic bag. I had to let go in that and then roll to the edge of the TPA and stuff it out. I couldn't even stand on either leg. It was pretty miserable. And they were

out building that fence. So it was a few days later. They finally came back. And I was still recovering a TPA floor. What did you do? What did they do in terms of? Well, it's quite a cool first day. Yeah, but like, here's a, here's a poultice made of god knows what slap it on, walk it off. Yeah, finally. Which is mostly what it was. It was a very simple. We went over to a spruce tree that was

“bleeding a bunch of sap out, you know, and went over there and scraped a bunch of that sap off with the”

axe. And then just put that on my wound. This is right at the start, right when I got it packed the wound with that sap. Then I went back and shockingly enough, we're out in the woods and the dirt and the

rusty axe or whatever. It never got infected at all. He pulled up as best it could. A few days

later when they came back on Dre, one of the native guys brought me a little cany carved for me, which was nice. And so then next couple days I came around and then, you know, got to where I could get back out on the fence again and help out. But it was a quite a lesson. You know, that was my first time with them. And yeah, I was in over my head a little bit high learning curve. That's a memorable lesson. memorable lesson. That was very, that was pretty miserable in that

DP for a few days. Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show.

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50% off your first year at Monarch.com with code Tim. So it sounds like you got close to quite a few of the locals. Can you describe? Hopefully this is enough of a queue. You told me about this woman we're out in the woods in the mountains. But it involves a picked up a few Russian words on this trip. I think one of them was Duruk. If that's enough of a queue, in terms of warm welcome. What was your

and didn't know what to expect about. We land in the Moscow airport and instead of having a bus or something come up to our airplane, it was like a farm tractor, it's blue farm tractor and a wooden trailer doesn't know where I get off the plane and we're climbing into this trailer. It's like of course I took a picture in this officer stand over there. Duruk, which means like idiot. No, the first greeting arrived. I came over to my phone and made me delete. Welcome to Russia and

so how was fitting? I guess it's not that different from how you would probably get treated. Okay, that's a big picture fair enough. A little bit of cultural ignorance. All right, so let's go back then to the impetus, the catalyst. Just as a skeletal backstory that we're going to dive in, do but where do you grow up? I grew up in Idaho and we're on a farm in North Idaho.

“Martin, did you grow up learning Russian from family members then studying in school and then going to Russia?”

No, I never had any particular thought, particularly a lot about Russia, although I was

really into history and so I had read about the lot about World War II, Russian word, memoirs. You know, on the side, the red and really was impacted by the Gulagarka Palagos, so I had a familiarity with Russia but it was never a destination that I had thought about. And, you know, lived a fairly typical beginning of life. God of job when I was 13 worked, worked work and then as about 18, my brother invited me to ride freight trains. So that kind of

something. So we're going to skip forward from there and come back to why, let's do it. Oh, boy, you're talking about exactly. So what on earth happened that led to actually getting on a plan? You know, I grew up in a Christian household and I had seen the fruit of that path in my life. I'd seen people around me, my family history. You know, I really valued it and it was really meaningful to me. But as I was a teenager and grown up, I had a lot of questions that I hadn't

had satisfactorily answered. And so I found myself, although I really valued Christianity and saw it as very good. I found myself in a place where I was struggling to connect with it on any level.

“And so it was in a fairly dark place as a young man there. And I remember at that time,”

I had read this particular verse. And it basically said, he who follows the path of righteousness

and is in the darkness continue. And that struck me at the time because like, okay, there's people that try to do the right thing and are still in darkness in that. So that's okay. But it didn't answer a lot of the questions I had. And I didn't want to bulldoze it all because I had seen that it was good. And I also knew I was young. What do you mean by bulldoze it? Well, I don't want to take my faith in Christianity and everything that it meant and just just say, this is, yeah, I'm a discarding

go my own way as a 18 year old. What types of questions did you have? They're actually fairly simple. And this goes to the next answer. But I had my two main questions, where there's one,

“like, surely, though, your Earth is not 6,000 years old. And then two, as now, I just had a hard time”

matching up Old Testament ethics with Christ's message. And I just didn't know how to do those things. And so I had a lot of what I would call cultural baggage. I was a lot of baggage with my faith, but because I recognized it as good, I was like, I'm going to try to stick with it. But I have to separate the baby from the bath water. And that's kind of a daunting task because it's kind of a life-long journey of faith. But I was given a great boost by the fact that actually Jesus did,

he said in one part of the New Testament, he says, to give a summary. But what's the point of the law in the prophets? Like, what is all this for? He says, love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. So I was shocked when I read it because I was like, wow, wait a second, he takes all the bath water and throws it out for you and leaves you the baby. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love the your neighbor as yourself. That was the whole point of the

law and the prophets and everything else. And so I didn't have to figure everything else out at the time. And I was okay with seeing if that would play out. You know, like I said, I had seen enough fruit that I didn't want to bulldoze it. What kind of fruit had you seen? You know, it's like my mom for

one was like a real woman of faith and we'd always had single moms come over and live at the house.

And she would always work to give gifts to Christmas gifts to prisoners, children that are out.

as a young man, you know, they've got this thing, this ideal that's pushing against your

natural lust and this. And that, you know, you get kind of throws up wrench into your natural tendencies, whether that be to anger or to love, you know, it overlays your life with a love ideal. And I saw that as good. And so I chose at that time with those two bits of information that like continue even in the darkness and that I can like put everything else on pause. The only thing I need to like accept or not accept is like love that core. And I was like, I'm okay with

accepting that. And then I had this really deep prayer that someday I just wish I had the faith to match. But I didn't actually know if I, for say, believed it, I just knew that I'm going to do it anyway. So in that time, I was also traveling and going into New York and going to Virginia and running all around. And I had heard of this opportunity to go to Russia and build an orphanage.

So that was the first thought of Russia. And again, it was the distant and I didn't think much of it,

but I did pray well if you're going to go Lord, you know, you're not to give me the signs. Because I don't have any reason to go. And then I went to New York. I was kind of a flipping

“prayer. I think I went to New York and met a Russian there. And she had offered to give me Russian lessons,”

because you know, the topic came up. And I did. And I don't know what it was. But I think it was maybe either putting a face to a vague idea or a act of God or whatever you want to call it. But for some reason it hit me really emotionally. Like I would went back to my apartment there. And my sister's apartment and just would cry like, oh man, I felt like a heavy burden for it wasn't even directed at her. It was directed at this vague idea of going. And I couldn't tell even at the time. I was like,

I couldn't quite explain it, but it could be explicable. But also I could just accept it as the kick that I prayed for. And so I kind of did. And again, I still didn't have the face to match. Then I remember going, I was like, okay, I'm going to go take it as an answer. I bought a ticket for a year and headed over to I didn't even really know where. And there was a guy over there just this walker, awesome dude. He was getting up that alert for an edge building project. And so that was

my only connection. And then I remember on the train. I was like, it was hard for me to go because I had like girl at a crush on. And all these, I wanted to pursue my education and maybe become an officer in the Marines. You know, all these things I had ideas for. And then I was on this train and had given all that up. Like, on the transit being really chugging across. And I remember this like, "Lord, if I could have one thing someday, give me faith to match my like willingness to sacrifice."

So that was my chicken to Russia, kind of open ended. And I just had one thing I was grasping. Like, love your neighbor as yourself. Let me see if I can implement this in the world in whatever place I am. I wasn't trying to per se do anything other than that. Tell me if this is a fair read. I've often said to myself and to other people. And I absolutely barred if I'm someone else. And then I'd come up with this. But the general maxim that it's easier to act your way into a new way

of thinking than to think your way into a new way of acting. So act as if.

“Act as if that's very much so. And I think particularly when you're dealing with something like”

apathy or love or, you know, how do you relate in the world? Like, one thing that was clear is like, "Well, actually, it's an action." You know, like, and so we're going to do this. You know, you can't be stagnant in that orientation. But I think that's a good summary. How did you go from orphanage to Ivanki? I went over to help just this walker build this orphanage. And that was neat. But I was just me. And he needed a lot of groundwork laid and wells dug. But he eventually

had a crew lined up. Those going to come over and actually frame the thing and put the thing up and do all that. So I was there kind of doing the groundwork we dug well and did all this stuff. But it was still pretty preliminary. And I was there for a few months, really enjoyed being in Russia. But I was struck by the fact that I actually really want to live with Russians, you know, and so I told that to justice. And he was like, "Well, let's call the neighboring village.

You call them up." And the guy was like, "Whoa, yeah, absolutely send the American over.

“My wife's in the hospital. And I need someone to watch my kids. So how long have you been there?”

About three months, I would guess." How much Russian did you speak at that point?

Very little. Very little. Like I was trying to pick it up. But that's part of the problem is

justice was so much for you. He's one of the most well-read people I've ever been with. So it's so fun to just talk to him and...

And when you first go to a country, you're so struck by how much you can communicate through

nonverbaly and then you also hit a wall. And you're like, "Okay." I wanted to get past that as fast as possible. So I went to that little village and was fully immersed in the Siberian village life right there. Yeah, it was pretty funny because I hadn't dealt with kids before or anything like that. You had to go back to his lumber mill job and say he's big Russian dude. You know, a big handshake. Oh, so glad you're here. Showed me around. And

here's the kids. Five-year-old boy and a two-year-old girl and an introduce. Have some tea. Then the next day, he's already off to work. He'd pointed me where the grocery store is.

So I was in the deep end trying to take care of these two kids. I've never done that before.

A grocery shop forum. I didn't even know the language. And that was my splash into

“Russia proper, I guess. And then regards. And then how do you get into reindeer territory?”

Oh, yeah. So these guys, these guys at all, uh, the era had been present before. And, and it was, uh, sorry, the Russian guy with a big hand lived with. Yeah, the big Russians. No. Any, uh, his neighbor was named, was Eager. And he had also been to prison. And these are all guys in Siberia with pretty storied pasts. Well, they really enjoyed having the over there. For one, I was like really trying to just work hard and it was so random for them to have an

American, but they, uh, would kind of tug of war me back between their two houses. That American. Yeah. It was, they both became like families to me. You know, they both had kids and both a lot of fun in different ways. But Eager, the second family there, had been in prison with a native fur trapper from the far north. And they're really close because

they had like found God in prison together. And that's in that. So he was always telling me,

you got to go north and meet my fur trapping buddy. So after that year of living in Russia, I write at the end of it. You're a, uh, trapper came through town to sell furs and we met and he invited me up to live with them. And so I was like, yeah, I'm going to go home to America, renew my visa, get some, earn some money, and it'll come back. And so I went back and headed straight north more or less. And then I was in even more over my head. So what was, what was the first day

like when you land the first day, first week, when you land in the far north? Now it's just in Siberia proper. Well, we've been in Siberia the whole time, but it was just incrementally further north in kind of central Siberia. How cold does it get in the far north? Well, in the far north, you know, where I would end up being with the nomads. It'd get to negative 58 negative 60s. It's like, kind of the cut off, but it's chilly. First, getting to the north. It's funny. Well, one thing I was

“struck by, honestly, when I got to Russia was there's a lot of drinking. And every bit, I went”

further north. Every time I would get used to it at one place. And I remember driving in a village in the first village I was with justice. And we're just cruising along on a cold winter day in the bus. And it serves around this guy laying in the road, but we're on the middle of nowhere. I was like, whoa, it's cold out. We're going to stop in the later classroom. I could, you know, make out with my bad Russian. Just like, I got he's a drunk. He's dead. I was like, whoa, that's kind of intense,

but you kind of recalibrate at the new norm. And when I went to the next northern village, it restruck me again. I was like, oh, there's chaos. And that first week was that. Because I was with Yura and he was showing me around. And, you know, we go to this first house. And I think even, I might have been even on the way from the airport, but pick up some random drunk guy and he, you know, holds up his phone and listen to this. And just his wife just chewing him out,

costing him out. And that's the fury of the Russian woman. You know, because he's been missing for another longer. Let's see. How can I summarize some of what we were talking about at dinner

“last night? Yeah. Correct me if I get anything wrong. Like in the event key, you have these”

sustenance hunters, trappers, etc. with encyclopedic knowledge and wear with all. I mean, it's, it's just mind-boggling, right? I haven't had an opportunity to spend time in that region of the world, but certainly in Central and South America and Africa and so on. When you start to look at, let's just say, like shung on trackers in South Africa, there are like levels and then the call-high bushman and then there are levels and it's unbelievable how fluent they are in their

environment. Yeah. Right. And at the same time, many of these groups have an Achilles heel.

attributable to homicides suicide or alcohol related accidents? Yeah, this is the guy heard for the

“northern native villages was 30% of people die from homicides to suicide. It's really,”

and having lived there a long time. Like, actually, I appreciate you stepping back a little bit because I don't want to like air dirty laundry and not put the proper context. Like, I love those people and they're my friends and many of my friends have that issue. But it has really

tangible consequences when it's at that level. But yes, it was amazing because these people,

you know, you go in the village and then be just on the ground drunk for like weeks on end, just binges that I could only be broken by taking them back out in the woods. But when they get in the woods and so far up, these are like the coolest, most knowledgeable people and then people that you would say are happy and living a fulfilled life and also just really open and pleasant and quick to become family basically. But it was almost explicable just in the cultural

“tumult but they've had to endure over time because, you know, it was just in the 30s and stuff that”

basically the Soviet Union and Stalin like kind of really grabbed the hold of what was had been long before just a traditional way of life that continued forward alongside Russian for trappers. And this and that. And they grabbed hold of it with like an iron fist force collectivized it all the people that were spiritual leaders of any kind, shamans and everybody else got sent to prison camps. Anyone that was really productive so like, anyone that had more than 500 reindeer were sent to

prison camps as cool locks or whatever, you know, and then they kind of just gutted the intellectual and spiritual soul from them and then forced built these villages they forced them to be in and then instead of them having reindeer and being people existing freely out in the wilderness they turned them into collective farms. So now you're hired as a reindeer, I hope herder to

“heard the governments reindeer and your wife might be hired as a T.P. worker to live in the”

T.P. and so they just restructured the life the kids now don't live with you in the woods. They go to boarding school separated the families and then somehow they actually made that kind of work, you know, and to some degree the reindeer while less independent than they were prior, they flourished and that they had big herds of reindeer and people were productive and alcohol was banned. So they kind of were quite productive and then the Soviet Union collapsed and overnight all the

reindeer just became for the highest bidder. So the, you know, Russians and people from out of town that had a lot of money just came in and bought all these reindeer that were grandpa's and grandma's, you know, blood and sweat and just butcher them and send them to the meat shops and the reindeer and herders scraped together what little bit of money they could and bought a few reindeer and went

back into the woods. The family I lived with was Von Victorovich was the old man when I first got

there and he was blind but he was the guy that had got some of these reindeer took his sons out of the boarding school and raised them in the woods and so they gave me a real appreciation also for the traditional ways of life because I could see it in villages where reindeer herding hadn't been hung on to and they just felt like black holes like everybody was just drinking and there was nothing to do and they don't have an outlet to like flourished with something they're proud of in

in their native ways so it felt pretty dead in but the village with the reindeer herding had this whole thing and they you know the reindeer herders out there and because of that even the people that don't do it are proud to be reindeer herders and the place to send their kids in the summer and people have this there's a little bit of cultural momentum that's really enriching let's unpack this word and this animal and the significance of reindeer because come up with tana people are like what

is up with these magical reindeer? So first of all just to paint a picture of her folks and this

might not help but how similar are reindeer to caribou? Very similar almost you probably wouldn't recognize a difference but they do have a slight genetic just from separation so reindeer are technically in the old world and caribou are the similar animal but in the new world so Canada and they can breed with each other and stuff but that results turn out poorly like they get the worst traits of both and then in the old world more so than well an old world it's the reindeer were domesticated very

long ago like 10,000 years ago or whatever so there's actually kind of become a bit of a domestic strain of reindeer like the natives now can't domesticate the wild ones and if a wild one comes

that there's some even genetic separation between the wild and the semi domestic and what is the

“role of the reindeer? Why are they so important? Is it analogous to say bison for some of the”

planes and winds in North America? Is it different? Well it's different because of the domestication. Exactly. It's analogous in that you know they're hopeful for all stories and everything are all connected with the reindeer like with the bison but it does differ because the reindeer actually practically make living in the woods in the tiger and those road and remote northern forests a thing like it makes impossible to exist out there you're around

and have transportation so they ride the reindeer like you would horses and then they also in the winter time ride and you know, slaves they provide meat when the hunts don't go well they provide the furs that you know so they kind of provide everything they also provide just the cultural context like you could go out there sure and set up a teepee and live and bring in noodles and you know they just find but it would feel fairly dead without just the rhythms of life that are

created by the reindeer so they're really core to that sort of the rhythms and the rhythms and

and but also they're very practically I always hated snowmobiles because they're going to break

down and then you need to be stuck you know 40 kilometers from camp and like you said your hands aren't working you got to try to work on this little thing when you had a reindeer in a sleigh no problem you know and so you can this is a point that is interesting to make that I learned living in the woods for a while is like your home you're just already home wherever you are and so like when you have your reindeer and stuff you're not lost your home

you're just where you are is kind of home and you're able to take that and really embody it and become like a part of the wilderness in that way just a quick thanks to our sponsors and

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had an influence had an impact on him seems like about might be an understatement I don't know

“for people who are wondering this is not a light breezy hunter page read and we're going to come”

to that in just a second but what did your childhood education look like? I was home schooled so my mom took it real seriously and it was pretty hands on and teaching us and I for whatever reason really got into history as a young kid so even probably was 12 I read this big memory as my first real thing book but it was about a few a jima and like World War II and other battles and then I got really into those memoirs read a bunch of German memoirs from World

War II which were always crazy because they had to go through so much and in the Russian ones because

I was anyway got into all the memoirs and then somehow came across the Gulag archipelago and I was fairly young you know it's probably 1718 when I first read it and it impacted me in a lot of ways that were relevant to my little spiritual path that I was on before because a lot of what he talks about is that happiness can't be our ultimate goal in life we have to have purpose could you just for people who certainly I'm not intimately familiar with of it? What is

what is written about Alexander Schles and Ethan was a guy who's on the front in World War II and wrote a letter back criticizing Stalin or something and of course you got checked and you got arrested and sent to Gulag which were the Soviet prison camps that kind of snaked their way all through the Soviet Union they were particularly harsh on political prisoners as opposed to

crime prisoners but life so they would send these guys out to basically death camps and have a mine

or do the labor basically they kept the thing going but they were designed to be really brutal and dark places the fact that even you know because the political prisoners were the bottom of the wrong they allowed the like rapists and those guys to kind of rule the roost and set the rules and so they degraded into some pretty terrible situations but this was all unknown basically to the west and he was a some kind of a brilliant mind and he over his eight or however many years he was in

the prison camp had an encyclopedic ability to like remember maybe he wrote down on an all but all these stories of people who had been through all these situations and when you read it I was just struck by like man there's a little paragraph about this lady that lady should have room book like that's a crazy amount of tragedy and story and all the stuff packed in those books I know another example something that really stood out was like you know when you get in prison

everybody says to himself I'm gonna survive you know then you add at any cost to the end on the

most nonchalantly and then pretty soon you start down this path where you're basically stomping

“on others to survive because you need to look out for number one survival of the fittest”

and he was like and everybody basically adopted that mentality he's like except for these occasional the corrupt orthodox church had somehow created these babos because these old ladies that didn't allow their soul to go down that path and he's like they all died but they all were a light in the darkness on their way and then kind of gets at the point of yeah the lose your life but don't lose your soul and like happiness can't be your ultimate goal that can be taken from

you and by a health change or by getting thrown in a gula or by whatever it is you have to have something deeper and so forging a purpose you know and I wanted to talk about the home schooling because not that there is a single mold but there's certain I suppose maybe archetypes that people might have in their heads as to what constitutes like a rugged mountain man effectively and instead of my girlfriend last night and she was like he doesn't

really fit my vision of like a rugged mountain which is not she's not saying not rugged but when you're talking about and I'm sure we'll get to this like a Syrian history and reading Gulag archipelago is a 17 year old like these are not terribly common things they get woven together how did your mom do the home schooling like what did a week look like or the lesson plans does that make any

“sense yeah just wondering because home schooling I think for a lot of people in the United States”

seems like an aberration but when you look at some of the people whose books we read a lot of them had some equivalent of home schooling yeah you know what I think it kind of is as it's a public school there is a standard and everybody's going to be taught to that standard and there's kind of a minimum

and the positives and keep your kid at home and not teach him anything and go on but also you can really focus on your kids' unique interest in abilities and they can really excel and develop those in a way you wouldn't in kind of the public school realm so because I was really in the history

“you know we leaned into that and I had the time too because honestly in a public school setting”

it burned up so much time going to reach you know just thinking around whereas I could get done with my actual academic schooling and just a couple hours in the morning a few hours maybe and go on to my interests and so it allows you to do that but and she kind of taught us you know initially she was really hands-on and then the older we got it was more hands-off where we had to be more self-taught and follow this whatever curriculum she had and then the last two years of

school so my last junior and senior year I went to a public high school got that experience here so she last got so much which was an odd experience I'm not sure what I think of the socialization for first I was going to say prefer to be an indoor cap you're not really an indoor cap but it so with homeschooling though I think it had a really awesome thing you know I think it's great

“that it's an option in the country it is one thing if you're homeschooled you have to focus on”

its weakness which is community and friends and developing that so for people that I think that's an interesting option just know that that's its weakness and in account for that and you organized that's what we do with our kids how do you account for it with your kids we're really active in

trying to be the catalyst for community in our town like we're always ready to hang out and we're

all you know we got them in jujitsu and we got in gymnastics and got them in all the things and then make phone calls faster like hiking trips with the other families and make sure we're like multiple times that we get into the kids together with their friends instead you know you just really put effort and focus on that it also strikes me that the ability to build community and social bonds and therefore socialize but not in some oddly artificial environment is kind of dependent on

activities maybe this is particularly true for boys I don't know but what I observed when I was at your house I also remember your kids cousins visiting and they were always outside doing something

“yeah which I think is important right then I was just sitting around talking that's not actually”

natural for most humans including adults just do that all the time there were shared activities and then when the cousins left I guess it was your middle child who is just crying it is so so adorable but just such heartfelt deep connections and similarly it's like when we were out in the woods and we were sitting around your brother was there maybe had a thing or two to do with the

jujitsu influence I don't know another reason to never start fights like you would not see him

and be like I'm terrified of that guy and yet he could absolutely bend you into pretzels and and cause lots of fun problems throughout there was get a brother couple of llamas one with a slightly lopsided head and thrown the falling over long story and just a few guys two of my close friends were all around a fire and I can't remember who said it maybe it was your brother maybe it was Mike but oh I get it I see why this is again not it's not saying this is a purely

gendered thing but this is what he said because it was all guys it was not okay who said now I see why guys like fire so much because they can connect and talk without making eye contact you can just look at the fire having something that is like ancillary no I thought it was a fun observation

of Peyton blow more attention to it ever since but it does just give you something a third

party to he we should have a little star little fire on the table here for sure having a common activity like that and we are fortunate enough to just be able to to live in a place that's really conducive to in the sending the kids out so I didn't it's something I've obviously tried to foster in them so they do spend a lot of time just running around and being creative and you know they don't have one thing I've avoided a bit as phones and stuff like that and I think it

is fairly low hanging fruit because I mean you can see how they affect us in our everyday life we get distracted and we get kind of disoriented with them I would say and with kids it's even so much more cute so they have to go out and run around and play and have fun well you've also engineered this

environment in place yeah you could have been a lot of other places yeah and as for instance

I'm training this very large puppy right now although I think I'm being trained a lot more probably in any case very different personality from either dog probably mix with Anatolian Shepherd very stubborn and when you're trying to train a dog like that I'm a dog trainer said

“to me if you're using treats as an example and you have to tip with 20s because the bar is crowded”

right there are a lot of distractions and when I think about kids and of course I do not have kids yet I hope to in the very near future but if you're sitting in an apartment in the city and you're like kids you can't use your phone what do you offering them as an alternative

right it's like what is the alternative that is more compelling and you've deliberately put

yourself an environment where there's you have quite a lot to choose from right right and that has been intentional and obviously that is probably more difficult if you have a small apartment and you live in a city you know I imagine it takes a lot more hands on going to the park or you know there's a lot of creative outlets and learning to paint learning and instrument learning of this or that that may scratch that itch for me I did have it as a high priority to let the outdoors

be a big part of our life so I moved where that was possible and I have you know structure our life such I got the llamas you know where to joke and about initially so that I could take the family out on one two week long trips rather than because I just couldn't carry enough gear they'd take them out for shorter so it's been really intentional it's been great and it's something to work out in a more urban context but it's not what I wear a man

llama's people might be like llama's really are we in the andies what's going on why llama's definitely you know the reindeer history now when I first got back from Russia I thought it would be

amazing to pack with reindeer in America so I lived in Idaho and there was a lot against

owning reindeer north of a certain border I contacted my legislature whatever they're in oddly responsive pretty soon I was in meetings at the government with the government officials and they don't return the loss and now you can own reindeer in north Idaho unfortunately part of that was they had to be in high fence so it kind of ruined the ability of what I was envisioning to like see if you couldn't pack them out yeah I couldn't like load them full of gear

and pack up in the woods so you know then your only other options are horses and llamas and

“I honestly just hadn't grown up with horses and they're it's quite a learning curve on them”

they're dangerous you know everybody that does a lot with horses has some kind of stories of getting hurt on them for people have no idea how big are llamas they're about 350 they're a lot smaller they're a lot smaller and they I'm sure there are cases where they might but they tend not to kick they're very like safe and you can have like mean angry llamas of course like you have a bad bitey dog but you know if you have a good llama it's

they're oddly chill animals you go up on the woods and they don't like pair up the ground they sit there quietly the kids can ride them so in that way they're quite nice for kids obviously adults can but they can pack the gear and I can walk without gear as long as I want to so you know that's great advantages of horses and I love them but for me the low maintenance and low risk of a llama just I was like well hey have reindeer I guess that's the next closest thing

are there any terrain or sure footedness advantages to llamas I'm thinking about for instance like horses versus donkeys right like it seems like there are some advantages of using donkeys over horses yeah the main advantage everybody should follow hobo jr. on Instagram because you have photos of the aftermath of some horses going yeah heartling down an incline yeah

“don't want to be caught up in that yeah it's easy to get kill I think yeah this is the common”

historical yeah theme sounds like I bucked off the horse in the fourth crusade ended or what yeah where we go advantages of llamas on terrain right yeah so they have saw you know like the horse you have a metal shoe on the bottom and metal particularly on rock is pretty slippery and so you'll do a lot of slip it and slide it on rocks the llamas have a soft pad with two little claws they look like little raptor claws in the front and so it's actually quite interesting to

see how they work they're very small yeah they're small little paws but they you can stick on like a wet rock and that soft paddle grip and they can walk up and down the rocks or if you're in mud or

yeah the terrain issues are pretty great the other pack animal people uses goats and those are nice because you can really go over olders and like rain anything and hop from this to that they're not there's somewhere in between a horse and a goat as far as they're off-roading abilities but sounds like

you would have to have a whole caravan of goats for carrying capacity and goats also are always

with you like with a llama I can time up and go hike up this way in that way the goats are always with you can't time up and you can't leave a minute there's chaos will ensue but they're in their funny little critters but they were my kind of teeth but let's hop to purpose which I feel like looking back at your family history looking back and is it fair it just to tie up one

“loose end with Gulagark Palago is it how analogous is it to man search for meaning by Victor Franco?”

Yeah it's really similar I think it's like the thicker version of that you know that's like Gulagark Palago like would be that man search for me got it okay could you give us a bit of your family history and you can go back to your grandmother you could kind of start wherever you want the purpose specifically made me think you're dad and the reinvention of purpose yeah which I think is a pressing need for a lot of people in the fast moving modern environment

or they feel like they're on very unstable ground perhaps in a lot of ways but let's go back you know I throughout this term a Syrian but yeah most people don't it's not familiar word yeah there's a kind of I guess you would almost call it the indigenous people of the Middle East you know before kind of the Arab takeovers and stuff where air makes speaking a Syrian is what they're called

“so that's what my family was they lived in north western Iran kind of near a leg cub leg”

army and during the chaos of world war one you know there had been the Ottoman Empire was crumbling and all these people who had been under the Ottoman like colonial yoke were seeking out

their independence and their freedom and break and off and in all that chaos basically I think what

happened was they it was an easy time to get rid of a entire people group you know like actually Anatolia you have an Anatolian shepherd was a pretty diverse place up until then after that time it was basically just Turks and Kurds left you know like the Greeks the Assyrians there Armenians kind of got all ran out of there in what what would the reasons for running them out it's complicated it's not histories not black and white they were minorities because those

“groups were Christian overall living in you know under the Ottoman umbrella and so sporadically”

at times they would live okay and in at times there would be big massacres and over the course of centuries they were just constant it wasn't a pleasant way to live I guess would be the quick way to put it and so there's sporadic massacres kind of all the time and then so when World War I happened you couldn't blame them for wanting independence you know and so a lot of those Christian minorities joined with the British or the Russians to try to forge out their

new nation states that were forming from the crumbling Ottoman Empire and at the same time nationalism was really rising and there was a big Turkey for the Turks movement like we don't

want other people here and that was ultimately the movement with the most power and so when the

Russian Empire collapsed from the Bolshevik revolution they kind of left a vacuum in these areas that had they'd kind of provided a bit of a defense for and because of that crazy nationalist server that was going on the Turks decided that they could just chill or expel all the minorities who you know of course some of them had been problematic and that there was like these freedom movements everywhere collective punishment out of mass of scale and obviously my my grandparents were

kind of out of it because they were in Iran but when the Russian presence left there the Turks went into there too and it was basically at that point it was just a kind of a uncontrolled well ultimately it would be a genocide it killed like 750,000 assyrians and a millions plus our minions and you know I was quite a disaster so my grandma and grandpa both of them would ultimately be for all practical purposes sole survivors like their families were completely

wiped out my grandpa was in a village when they were coming in and burning it down and his dad was

don't look back and he looked back to see his dad's house on fire you know what is that and

“he never knew what has happened to his sister and that up getting taken in by some Jesuit”

priests and kind of raised in there and then my grandma had a different story where the Ottoman Empire was still kind of conscious of like trying to put on a image to the world and so instead of I mean they were plenty of just straight up massacres but instead of they called them deportations but they were kind of deportations to nowhere so they just drove people out into the desert and marched them around until they died and so my grandma and Jed seven siblings

and a mom her dad was taken off to be shot and then they just drove him around the desert until all but the mom my grandmother and one sister of my grandma were left you know the baby just had died and the mom fell down so I just can't go on anymore in my shawl and my grandma and shush on like picture out there like we gotta keep going some point there they split off from the guards or whatever stumbled through and we're we're actually ended up being rescued by a

British military like outpost type thing and then they were taken to a refugee camp mom and the

sister never recovered really from just the trauma and then grandma was sent to Baghdad and raised

in a refugee camp so these two people had kind of lost everything even there like I mean the Syrian people nation kind of almost vanish like there's aromatics what they speak it's like almost a gone language now you know it's very just small fragments of it hanging on so they've kind of lost everything and then they met in Baghdad somehow you know got married immigrated to France right before World War II and then you know the Nazi invasion happened and there was a whole

that the whole series of stories from the kind of the deprivation at that time they were already poor immigrants arriving there and then though I go through that whole Nazi occupation then then they eventually made it to America and actually died not long after so my dad was 10

“when his parents died and was raised by his sisters but what what I find something to be that I think”

about a lot is that they ended up having 11 kids you know so that had a really big family and I would go to all these family unions with my aunts and uncles and my dad and this and they were just the most joyful fun so much love and joy and family and all this it was a real bright spot in my childhood and then it was just that Jonas family stuff and then you almost take it for granted until you step back and you're like wait a second we're one generation from like this is my grandma

or dad you know grandpa had their entire family's wiped out and lost their whole culture and had to immigrate and give up everything and then had to do that again and then but somehow they've raised like a

really joyful family like a full of people and our like conversations were never about like

those people did that to us and like this is what happened you know it was never hate was never the common language it was always love and family and and there's like some old grainy videos of grandma and grandpa and they're just laughing and eating you know they raised rabbits and eating rabbit around the table and laughing and he's like well it's so interesting I don't know what cross they bore and I know my dad said his dad used to always sit in his closet and pray and he's like

you know I'm sure he had like a lot to deal with but they didn't pass it down one generation which is impressive you know and they not only did not pass it down they built and put into the world something really beautiful which is my family including my dad and so leading into what you're talking about

“dad it's something that I think about regularly more than you'd think because maybe I have a history”

and orientation but just the fact that that's a legacy that I have that we all have you know shared humanity but what a thing to be able to live up to I don't have to be defined by the hard trip and the tragedy in the negative way it's like you can expect you can see other other people have risen to that occasion and come out of it and create it and so when I find myself in a hard situation in the past or now or whatever you know you can you have that to look at hang on to having a choice

yep you have a choice of how to relate to it I mean there were so many people and they're just like

you have every right to be fully traumatized and never recover you know what I mean I

got you there's no judgment on my front for that but out in the other hand it's like what about

they somehow built something in the world in spite of the like unimaginable horrors you know watching

your family get killed and raped and all the things that went on and then just be able to build a loving family is pretty impressive yeah well let's talk about your dad I mean whether by nature or nurture both he made seemingly some pretty remarkable choices as well yeah so he grew up as obviously a son of immigrants in America and they raised by mostly his sister out

“I don't know you know I'd say he all I think he really wanted was a family and stability and”

wanted to work hard and you know his most joyful moments as when I was growing up it was just when he'd come home from work and we'd run out and give him a hug I think that was his life most fully lived it was just being a provider and being able to you know he was an engineer so he was smart guy and you know they're like just create a family that's really what he wanted he was very family oriented but then it was interesting as when he had also had childhood diabetes and

polio so he had some health issues and he wasn't great at managing his diabetes well so when he was probably about I'm not as pretty young I guess you know it's still a teenager probably

he started to you know get the source on your feet that you get and then basically because of

the degrading situation with his feet he lost his job and all of a sudden he had to watch as my mom had to go back to school which was something that was very difficult for her because he was just not academic but no longer could dad be the provider he was basically somebody we had to care for as he ended up losing his foot and this and then it was like a 12 year process of his health degrading and it was really hard for him I he had to you know he's mom's going to

“school and we had to go to the food bank and I remember him just like crying like oh he's”

I failed like the one thing you wanted to do a little and remember and then his foot finally recovered and he and I went out in the woods and we were splitting wood and he like crushed his foot and his a log splitter oh and I was so too late to say oh so then they just amputated his other foot and so basically he lost his ability his physical ability to to pursue his purpose in the world and it was really difficult for him to do yeah to watch his family suffer and this and that

and then but then it was interesting over the years to watch him well so for my perspective as a

son for my mom's perspective ever as a wife we never lost sight of his purpose you know like we

we knew who he was in our lives it was never about the money he was bringing home or that this is that it was like man he what an encourager and you know what a joyful person and all that and we never lost sight of that he did but then it was interesting to see over the course of those 12 years of health degradation how it was almost like he had to refind his purpose and he did and then when his health was at its worst then he was on dialysis and in tons of pain

and stuff wasn't a way when his like spiritual giftings or something were at their peak like he was really able to I could hear him at night crying and pain and like oh and then in the morning he would Oh Jordan you know doing great and this and that and let's read this song together let's do this you know he was very much he refound his purpose in pouring into us and into facing the loss

“of his health and his own death with joy and that's what he did he found he was like finally”

he was like man it's I'm in too much pain it's too degrading you know to have had me rolling him off and I'm taking the dialysis he's like I'm just gonna stop going to dialysis and I was a hard decision form but when he did it was just like all right that's just hardy for the next two weeks you know he is diabetic so fine that he could eat all the crap food he wanted and we all had tons of laughs and he was kind of full of joy right up until the end and you're like what a cool legacy to see

someone face all that and see purpose not in their life even but even in how to face death and the way he did that we're all gonna be in the same position where we lose our whether it our health or whatever inevitable suffering is coming down the hatch I now have a template for how to face that in a way that I'm still putting into the world some kind of light because I could see that it's not only possible but I can see the template for doing that so it's interesting

having seen that it really makes you grateful for the like the blessing I have now and that I do know what I love to do and that I have an opportunity to share it with others I know my even like my purpose now as it is but I also know that's gonna have to evolve with inevitabilities of

a way that as you have to shift directions that you'll be able to make that adjustment like they should rhyme it's not going to be something completely different and it's just gonna evolve into a little bit different angle when you think of your dad's purpose changing over those 12 years is one way to view it as him going from prioritizing how he acted in the world like how he does things in the world to how he then supports and teaches the rest of you and the family I mean

was he taking on more of a teacher role was it a supporter role I mean maybe not explicitly but definitely implicitly his gifting was that he really was an encourager and was really joyful and you know people enjoyed being around him and he was able to lean into those skills those gifts

“inspired of the fact that he couldn't walk or that he didn't have hands or whatever and so I think”

you lean into those giftings that you have that are not dependent on what you've done your ability to produce you know which is great while you have it after he stopped dialysis how long did he last after that it was about a week it wasn't as long even as we expected you know I had it might be up to two weeks or whatever I had about it I didn't even about a week in it's temporary respect and then that was it we were all around and did you at time understand his decision to be honest I actually

he was really struggling with it because you know he was also a man of faith and I remember him reading you know he was like because he really was having a hard time hanging on you know because it's the pain amount of pain he was in and stuff but he was like it says here you know

Lord will never give you more than you can bear and I remember actually in conversation with

them all that's actually not true dad like everybody that's died was given more than they didn't bear it says they won't tempt you beyond your ability to bear which is a different thing you know you're kind of on a different realm and so we had that conversation says not that I was I wanted him to hang on as long as possible but I also wanted him to have the freedom we talked a lot about how it's weird in the modern world where you have this choice that we've

“never had in the past where you have to now choose when the stop going to dial us as they're”

stopped doing this or that or you can just drag on your inevitable downfall kind of forever and so

I think it was ultimately it just came down to the fact that he wasn't ever going to get better

he recognized that he was in a lot of pain and I think you wanted to free in a math final act you know you kind of free us up too probably some I'm gonna use the some of the kind of promises and parals of modern health care like you said to extend the runway sometimes in cases where the quality of life just entails so much suffering or lack of awareness that it just erases a lot of ethical questions rather we didn't have to face 200 years ago just to take a closer look at

modern living and specifically where I want to go with that is maybe we could take it to our trip in the mountains because particularly since we weren't doing any hunting if you're hunting

“then you have to time you're rhythm with your quarry and it's a different situation but I remember”

asking you what blind I was like so when are we waking up tomorrow and you're like oh one way go and I suppose the in this comes back to the event as well and living in a settlement where you are managing someone else's property or an employee of the government versus having more or flexibility in the way you structure your life in your days and I would just love to hear you riff on sort of over structure versus two little structure versus where humans kind of naturally

fall. The first glimpse I got of this way of life that we've lost in the modern context was actually

riding trains where it's like you wake up in the morning I don't have anything you have to do I just got to figure out where to get food and water and that's basically it. Can you give us like a minute to have to say how on earth did you end up hopping trains? The quick minute or two that was at my brother had for whatever reason done it for years. He hitchhiked and didn't like relying on people to pick him up somehow he heard about riding trains jumped on one and probably a lot to do

with this freedom that we're about to discuss just a lot of it and you know and ten years he basically is there seven or eight or ten or how many years he just rode trains and at some point when I was

having a job and doing the stuff to all of this stuff. Pretty wide fork. Yeah but like glimpse that I think is the appeal there is that that rhythm of life that humans are designed for that we've lived for as long as humans have been around then I would really get immersed in again living with the

“natives later where yeah you wake up and you have things you have to do but there's no particular”

schedule they're all directly tied to your existence right now you're not working to make money to put in your 401(k) so that later this you know it says all very direct it's like oh let's go catch some fish today we're hungry or the reindeer might be getting away let's go herd them back and you know you kind of have these activities that are directly related to your life and in that you would know the proper terminology but it feels like you're dopamine in your

serotonin all that's kind of stuff is just lined up properly. Well you're living the way that we have a right evolved to life exactly and it says so you're in the right mold basically for that and I've described it before but when you're successful on a hunt you're like get into some good

“fish and you're in that rhythm so you just couldn't be more joyful than that there's just no”

more that's it that's your max human experiences is amazing you know and we didn't have to earn a bunch of money and it's just it's just so much more accessible in a way. Well just it also makes me think about sorry to jump in but when you're talking about your brother and his German shepherd who had

never done any her and a couple of goats like running him up and your brother started trying to

gather them and the German shepherd just clicked into what it is artificially evolved to do and boom it was off to the races and it was a rhythm of life. Exactly. And human to not that different. Now and we have so many layers on top of that simplicity that sometimes it gets it's all feels like hacks you know as we know like even you look on your phone I got seven likes. It's just a little

“hack of our very picking recipe but it's not you never quite fully get there it was always a little”

bit hard to articulate I was like I just life feels just more realistic you're more like in the world but it's it's a little bit difficult to articulate. Well it seems very tangible in the sense that like you're dealing with fewer layers of abstraction. Yeah and I like I'm gonna do this thing to then ensure this other thing that will give me more happiness in the future. It's like hmm I know I'm gonna need to eat in a few hours or I'd prefer to need to eat in a few hours you can fast that you're like

I kind of like to be warm yeah okay I like to sleep tonight so it's like okay one of the effect are very related it's it's very easy to track hmm and not just track like have the gratification of individual calls and effect. Yeah and that's very tangible and it was so much so that this is only a working hypothesis but when I was living with the natives you know I had the issue that I wasn't my native language and as much as they were you know I love those people and my friends

it wasn't my my fam. It wasn't the people that you'd drop with you know but I was like I wonder if everybody would choose this way of life if it was you know a little bit more pleasant climate and with the two modern with the two modern little bit maybe a negative 20 and not negative 50

modern medicine and food security are amazing and so aside from that it's like I wonder if

people wouldn't choose this way of life even people that just have no idea that they might like the outdoor can I give like a sidebar experience that sometimes comes along with this you're talking about a little bit earlier today but he's talking about the bear incident specifically that you're mentioning earlier with your friend with the gun we had it we were this is a time where we had kind of gone out in the woods and a bunch of we had taken a bunch of the younger dudes that were

living in the village and kind of drinking and my furtrap and buddy has his big furtrap and territory and he was like at least you get these kids out there and just like spend the summer you know and have them living off the land and just because I'm curious is this stable or what are they sayables with the furtrap so we were out spin out that summer on that territory invited to handful of these guys and it was great we had to horse out there you know cutting hay with

for it and all that with the sigh and living off the land basically all that we fished and hunted well

one day we came out I heard my buddy was sleeping and he woke up and he's like and you get here

every squirrel this or that and so I didn't get up and look well my buddy goes out the brush is

“teeth and runs back he's there's a bear out there I jumped up and we look out in a bear just”

150 yards you know not far at all from our cabin had killed a moose what kind of bearers are we talking about these are brown bears just some kind of brown bear and Siberia and they are brutally mid-bit bigger than a black bear yeah bigger than a black bear some kind of a grizzly so we come out and the bear like took off up in the woods and like what is that laying over there and you know you're enough a big fresh warm moose right oh no way so we was a windfall for us

so of course they like cut it up and take it back the camp we dug a big pit into the permafros you know as a makeshift fridge and through the meat in there and then a few days later that bear came

back with a vengeance like he's not pleased he was not pleased he came back first sign was one of

our dogs just ran into the little cabin under the bed or whatever and then the other one we started here in Barkin outside we was then then the bear was it was a lot of tall brushing the area

“so we could just hear I could just hear the bear just through the ripping through the brushing”

and ripping this way and that oh my whole is a pretty intense right off the bat I was like holding the grass I grabbed the SKS which is like a salt rifle basically what they used to hunt over there and run out of the cabin and like go kind of towards where the dog is barking yeah figure the bear was over there so I'm walking over towards this bark and then Yorka one of the younger guys was behind me and when we just hear this the bear was right behind us

and snorted like flip around and then it just charged through the alders and they're like oh well that was crazy like what's the dog barking? and so then you can hear this kerfuffle out in the woods and I was like well here you take the gun I'm going to take the my little three mega pixel camera ahead at the time and that's your reflex looking to take some photos since like a guy you get the some perfect time it was a bad

“chasing the end but that yeah anyway I give the gun to Yorka same thing we're like kind of”

paying attention to where we last heard the chaos and again the bear was behind us like from snorted again and Yorka just took off running with the gun and he full on ran and disappeared from my side I had had near my knee issues we discussed earlier so I actually couldn't run nor would I want to affirm a predator so I kind of just stood there I was like like oh my gosh I come to see her and I'm like now we're doing my steps we play

five mega pixel camera and so anyway we've gone a long felt like a very long time it was right at 30 seconds to a minute like a good enough long time that I was like what in the world and it finally comes back into the knees he's like I can't do this my knees are shaking but I was like I was like you got the gun like don't run and then right as I said that the bear like stood up in front of us and he just boom boom boom boom and filled his old magazine

and do it and it took off and you know ended up getting it which away you know then we were

laughing at him because we were joking around but they had always been telling me like you know

us a vinky one shot one kill yeah I mean it's like Vietnam but then it was a crazy you know it's pretty intense and then it was also interesting because I was the first bear that I was with them with when they killed and they had this whole ritual because how they honored to bear the word the vinky word for bear is grandpa and then they take the eyeballs out they took the eyeballs out put them under a rock so that when the spirit of the bear came back it wouldn't see who did

what to it and then the funny the better part was they took it that's then the threw them in the river so when it did come back it would be the neighboring village and then the dead signs of flow to do that caught the wrath but yeah that was a pretty intense little moment there friend who one more story I mean these are all gonna be stories we're gonna do one more story some of the native hunters are better than others I'm gonna cue you I'm also involved in this

if I'm not mistaken can you oh this is great yeah this is another hilarious story there these two mean they made 60s women that were gonna come out to the tribe so there's this the village the native village 500 people there's about a 12 hour float from a place that's a common stop that the no man's often stopped so they had found out that we were gonna be there so this old ladies are gonna come out and visit the tribe oh they got it's just that 12 hour float so you don't really need

much to get there at the end of the day and can eat when you get there so all they brought as you any native dead would be an axe and so they untied their rope as an aluminum boat and jumped in the boat and they're just floating along well takes you to you know seeing your citizen women floating

a kill this thing will be the heroes or whatever so they wrote up next to it and with the rope

“that was attached to the front of their boat they last out over the I don't know if the antlers are”

the neck of this thing but at the same time you know had to actually picture themselves like chopping it in the neck and trying to kill it well it of course got traction on the shore and the one the water before they were able to pull that off and took off into the woods and skewed these ladies in this boat behind them like several hundred yards up into the woods before it finally went through these two trees and snapped the rope off and it disappeared and those

ladies like no just for gone for a few days I sit by the side of the river till the next people they couldn't carry their boats so they just sat there until finally somebody floated by that could help them drag their boat back to the water and the lady they made it out the lady was very funny because she was we didn't had to get back to the village eventually

“there's like a you know by land it was like a 30 kilometer reindeer ride and”

poor lady and I had the same problem I would always fall off the reindeer and but she was

at the only other person that apparently had that problem because they just put the saddle on loosely it's not like a horse saddle or you kind of cinch it up they just throw it on and it kind of wobbles but they get used to it and so they can kind of ride along and it took me a long time to use to but obviously it took her also a long time and I was walking but over in the rain and that poor lady every time we crossed a river or a puddle or anything there's a

little left in her back on but it was very funny that was a great great story I get it I just they're different breed of people that when grandma sees the moose women across the river because I had to catch it

in the max it's yeah all right so I'd be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about

a loan which is probably the only let's call it reality TV show that I've watched two full seasons off in the last which were the decades six seven oh yeah the word on the street otherwise known as the internet was that season six which you were part of and season seven were kind of two of the highly yeah with some insane fucking events that transpire in these two seasons if you ever after you you know I had to well had to I chose after elblost surgery do hyperbaric oxygen

treatments for host reasons sidebar on that if you're going to do that needs to be hard shell medical grade you know typically like two to two point five atmospheres don't do any soft shell stuff it's a waste of time but what do you do you just sit in there and especially in hardship you can't bring anything in but they set up TVs and so so my guilty pleasure turned into watching these multiple seasons of alone so for the season that you were part of the form out of

the show changed a bit over time but it was referred to along the lines of kind of the super bowl of survival man and in your particular season season six what was the format the quick summary of the show is yet a ten people go out in the woods all by herself you've self-filmed it's also and you get to pick ten basic tools like an axe and a ferro rod and a sleeping bag and a few things like that and then they drop you all off in different areas in the wilderness and the person

“that lasts the longest wins and hypothetically you know indefinitely I think maybe there was a”

year cut off but hypothetically a year plus you might stay out there if people really get into a groove so yeah that was the format of the season it's a fairly simple concept of location northwest territories Canada so we're just south of the Arctic Circle right yeah right at the not warm not warm not warm but conveniently very similar parallel to where I was in Siberia so yeah very I mean the them it seems like having watched two seasons and some other shows also

that I mean alone is my favorite I mean you learned so much if you're in the any degree of this is a great show on it you really learn a lot and get to see a lot of different approaches and what seems to work and what doesn't there are multiple approaches that seem to work yep all right like just don't build a cabin you just can't just deal I mean no serious don't try to build like Abraham Lincoln lock cabin and that image in your mind don't try to do that but then you

got got like stone house and so then like I probably wouldn't have tried to do it because I'd be afraid like blowing a gasket for sure it worked yeah very different from the shelter that you build

would not be obvious to someone watching the show that I found interesting for instance when we

“were out in the woods you showed me this is gonna require a little explanation see I'll have”

to explain what basic paracord could be used for but that you've got this looks like a transatlantic cable of paracord which was not allowed on the show is not allowed you had to have basic but a single cord that has like fishing line and filament and all sorts of things yeah super handy it'll ever seen what is that called survival cord and it has you know a Tinder material inside of it you pull out it's kind of a wax coated thing catch a spark well and then it has a snare like

Kevlar cable so you make a snare and it has a fishing line and then the regular string that

usually comes in the paracord and paracord is just a string that has an outer

sheath and then a bunch of little inner strands that are more like individual strings and they're kind of twisted together and make for a strong rope or you can break it down and the useful bits turn into a Gilnut yeah turn into a Gilnut which is which proved to be it seems to be one of the winning yeah Gilnuts hard to beat at such a passive way of collecting food in there what is that Gilnut a Gilnut is a it's just a big net that you throw in the water and set

in the water in such a way that fish swim and by get caught in it fish can't back up so when they swim and do a net if it's sized properly to their body and Gil's they'll get caught in it and they just sit there so just for definition in terms snare kind of similar right in the sense

“that you're trying to get a given animal around the neck yeah you have to size it”

normally yes a snareing is another in an actual survival situation it's kind of the not the golden ticket but incredibly important you know it's also usually illegal in most places because it's really effective but if you're really starting it would be yeah you'd size two what you're trying to catch so like a hair would be about the size of your fist you make a piece of wire or if you only have string loop about that big set it on the trail and do some things to try to slam left him because

another story just came to mind so in another example of footage you're not going to see on the show so I give him points a medical team would come out right and check him on participants and I can't remember the exact parameters but if you're like losing too much body weight or they'd schedule occasional visits to to get your SD cards give you new batteries and then just make sure you're you know not critically in danger with your health organ failure or something about that

now I think you were telling me that one point when they were doing a medical check for you that you'd set up uh remind me of what this called for a squirrel pulse the squirrels like to run up things and then across what does yeah explain how you just roughly how you build this thing yeah it was whatever reason squirrels are they just love running up things and then across things

“and so you know that's why you see him running on the power lines and everywhere and so”

you can take advantage of that to catch him by clearing all the branches off of a couple trees and then running a pole between those two trees and then throwing a couple snares along that pole and eventually some squirrel will run up it zip across especially if you see one in the area what does that look like when a medical check is being done right behind it was kind of funny

because it was early on it was like you know maybe the second week or something and they

they still had this crew member guy who I thought was hilarious because they really you know of course it's alone so they try to be really stoic they don't want to give you like actual human interaction but this one guy was just like whoa hell yeah this is awesome you're like like what was going on out there but they'll come walk and in for the year set up yeah for the medical check and scared a squirrel and it ran up and hung itself there was like sitting there kicking while the guys like my buddy

was that one British guy and particularly well you're like oh man thanks guys it's kind of funny but they actually only helped me cheat there so how long how long did you ultimately last 77 days 76 and is it fair to say that last is the wrong word to use because my understanding and conversations with you is that it was of course a television has to be edited in such a way that everyone is going through this crucible with right coming close to glancing off the breaking

point but it doesn't seem like it was that hard for you yeah it really wasn't it could have been like

actually you know it's near to buncher rabbits had like 20 something plus rabbits before I got the

“moves which I got a moves at day 20 and then from then on I really nailed the fishing and I just”

was piling up food like crazy and just because of my previous experience for you know years at a time in Russia I wasn't couple few three four months there just didn't seem like a long time away from the family because I knew our relationship was strong and genuinely could handle it and I'd come back and we'd catch up and it all'd be good but I bore a lot of stress because I didn't know how long this show had last so I was was just something that changed in season seven yeah it was a

big difference in season seven by then the next season they kept it at a hundred days which had that been my season would have been interesting because I once you get the moves I could have just

basically party didn't you know enjoyed myself but because I got this moves it was a lesson I learned

I was on the first large mammal harvest yeah on the show right yeah yeah and something that I really noticed out there was I should have been more present in the moment because I did allow myself to stress about this future you know I was like okay I got a moves now I'm getting fish surely somebody else is so man we're going to be out here six eight months and I lost some fats and I'm going to lose so I had like a so I can't be out here eight months and lose so I was

bearing a lot of stress because I didn't actually as much as I would advise myself if I were to go on again like just being the present you know don't worry about that future what happened is yeah I was gunning for 140 days before I even thought it might end and hadn't even allowed the thought to cross my mind that it would had a lot of food to get there and then ended at day 77 I can't say I ever thought I was going to win like I didn't I went out there too

win because I wasn't like trying to prove anything but I was just you know you try to keep going stride keep just see what happens I'm just going to go out there and see if I can be sustainable but I was genuinely shocked when it ended and thought it was going to go quite a bit longer so

“let me tackle a couple of things because there are a number of details that I think might be instructive”

to get into so first let's talk about the basic tools I'm amazed I don't want to give too many

spoilers but like one of your competitors made a shocking decision which was to not bring a fairer and that was that was that was that was a very risky maneuver ended up making it work but in part he's very good with something called bojo look up bojo online we probably but it's using friction to create a fire but if you're accustomed to using softer wood and then you go into Alpine territory yeah and it's much much much harder wood you got a problem on your hands

yeah he was able to find a cedar board which doesn't grow up there yeah you're allowed to use anything that you find so tin cans or barrels or whatever yeah effectively human garbage or things isn't washed up on the shore so 10 basic tools what did you choose to bring I took an axe a saw leatherman which is like a multi tools and knife and pliers and stuff and a frying pan and a ferro rod a sleeping bag a bow and arrow he like bows and arrow the fishing kit

trapping wire and paracord and trapping wire was just a thin gauge solid stainless steel wire and then you could create the gill net out of the paracord yeah so I got the I thought about bringing a gill net but then I just thought I'll bring a paracord I can make a gill net and the paracord will come in handy for other things too so what are some common mistakes if you look at what people choose to bring what are certain things they choose to bring let's leave aside a

gill net right because really covered that you can donate that yeah what are some other

would you say mistakes I mean I always with my own biases always think when someone doesn't

bring an axe some other really you know but I have my own you know how you're gonna get through the eyes and how you know they're just they're so handy but I brought a saw which in hindsight I probably should have just brought a gill net and had to instead of making the one and have you know anyway I do think not bringing a firestarters a poor choice because it's just so much stress you know you have to bear so much stress of not letting your fire go out and everything's harder so

“you have to be really conscious of the fact that things like staying hydrated is super important”

and so if there's an extra step to hydration you're gonna drink a little bit less water just to be clear if you're drinking out of a natural source you want to boil that water yeah you typically

fire boil your water then all of a sudden you're also burning a lot of calories yeah as it

just becomes a stresser you know when you're fired to go out at night because you got to wake up so I think that's a big one some people are really good with boat drills but I still think it's not we're lucky enough yeah oh well I was really into bringing a boat I mean you do need practice with a boat it'd be effective with it but I can't tell you how much time I spent enjoying myself just hiking through the woods because I could maybe shoot a squirrel or maybe get a grass that's well that's

“something that stood out to me is that and I think one of the stronger competitors in season seven”

did something very similar where it wasn't that you would necessarily go out on a dedicated large mammal or let's just say you wouldn't go out on dedicated hunt but if you went off to do anything you just bring the boat big the boat yeah because it's like a on your way to your fishing spot or on your way to get firewood it just gives you all it's something to do and it gives you

always that oh is there Bradet or is there so you know it's like you're kind of having more you're more engaged

or is if I didn't have hadn't taken the boat it would have been a lot of time where's I boy what do I do I do how many arrows are you allowed to bring nine nine nine yeah I don't know what seems like a lot of it I don't know if I don't know if I don't know if I really chose committee had a long debate that landed on nine but that's that's actually substantial number of arrows I never had an issue with the type of tips did you bring so I brought one tips which are

“judo points except they weren't specifically judo points in the nuance but yeah you don't want”

a sharp blade when you're shooting small game because you don't want to just shoot right through the animal you want to like hit it and blunt force kind of knock it out and kill it and so for small

game I had five of those and then I had four rod heads which are just sharp blades then what type of

how many blades to blade they were VPA like just solid steel rod heads note not just so that they were tough and they could yeah just sharpen them on the fly and all that so the mousse crowling or fencing I mean fencing gives people an image that maybe is not exactly the right image right right but animals are really good at taking the path of these resistance right right this is that it's something you employ when you're trying to snare them when you're trying to do anything to catch an

animal you just take advantage of fact that we all take the path of these resistance so what do you what do you do so I was actually out there you know I've done a lot of calling a lot of placing my shelter in the proper wind location and doing all this to make try to make a mousse encounter happen and I had set up a trip wire that would signal a tin can so that it would like if a mousse came by I would know and then I went out had a four to yard shot at a mousse and I missed

“and I was a big fail on my part but I remember watching that mousse run away just like oh”

idiot like how to do that you know you get used to screwing up and failing when you're in the woods like that by yourself whining isn't gonna help there's nobody else you can blame anything on it's like you literally better solve your problem or you're screwed so I was like I was disappointed I missed the mousse but at the same time I was immediately it's still running away I was like how do I make this happen again like I got I like it just made me more determined to learn from what I

just did and then as I was watching it run away it just kind of dawned on me that there's I mean I don't know how far apart but say 500 yards you know there's just kind of hills two hills it's not like there were cliffs or anything but hills animals are gonna go through the low point there because it's easy and then I just remembered oh we built those fences in Russia that actually did I really because what had happened it has had come on an kind of unexpected path

I want so I wasn't really quite set up to get him but I was like well I guess I'm not here to star if I'm here to like make it happen like an action oriented person in that way so I went over there and decided to try to build one of those fences and funnel because I'm even the native same before guns that used to funnel animals with fences like that so can you explain when you say fence that might involve chopping down some saplings kind of knocking them over so that you're

creating obstacles something I can move does not want to have to step over or navigate so they go kind of where you intend them to go yep yep so I had kind of set up the same tin can alarm system and then I had found a nice shooting bush that I could shoot from and get to with relative cover and then I built a fence but again it was just I hadn't even finished it when it ended up working but it was just you know in the with the natives we do four rows so four rows

of you know armed thick logs kind of stacked in such a way that they hold up into a fence looking so it did look like they did look like a fence when it's done but I just initially did one

probably a couple days I was like yeah yeah it was a lot of work and I was like it was a calorie

“risk and expenditure but it was clear I wasn't going to win if I was starving and so I was just”

I wanted like get food and so I uh built that funnel and then actually the not long after I was out pulling a again I hadn't even finished it yet I was pulling a rabbit out of a snare of all things and I heard that can clank I was like oh what is something's coming away ran over there I got up to the bush and that moose just came stroll along my fence to the opening where I was and I worked amazingly well you know as I'm morning after I had spent the whole evening call in the

moose and was able to put an arrow in it and uh what was the distance on that like 24 yards see that I mean that's like do it that's the payoff 40 yards I mean look I yeah region and I won't lot of recurve and I would not put money on myself for a shot on a moving target nor would I but yeah when you're starving yeah oh yeah we should wipe out a couple shots it's actually

“doable you can kind of correct but in my miss I had only had one arrow with me at the time”

so yeah so I hit it and it was actually felt like a really good shot but he took off so you know I'm gonna wait an hour let him kind of just calmly you know if you're bow hunting when then you realize it's like a lot of times the animal doesn't see you when you shoot it and it's quiet it gets hit it doesn't know it happened so it's gonna run over somewhere and like lay down it doesn't

feel good and so usually when that first place it lays down because it doesn't think it's getting

chased per se it just lays there and then it slowly bleeds out and it's you know about it's calm of the way you probably go as a wild animal but what happens if you get too eager and start running after this animal you put an arrow in is it'll if it sees you it'll then know it's getting chased and they'll get this second wind and just take off and run and by then they'll no longer be bleeding as much and very often people lose animals like that so fortunately I was

aware of that waited a good long time you either while also I mean more than an hour I'll tell you about an hour and then I well and then I started tracking it and that's great blood trail and then it just started dry up and the ground had been like an old burn and so it was hard and they weren't

tracked and I was like no way am I gonna live this movie second stress like no way and I have

that lost it's blood trail and there's just sitting there thinking as well the last thing I can do is it's gonna take the path of least resistance once again particularly when it's wounded so I just I did it a few times but I stood in the woods and then you just kind of walk through as if you were gonna go where does it take you and go with the flow and sure enough you know 500 yards up or whatever there it was laying there the oh no way duck down and it was still alive

and so I was 50 something yards away and it's like man I can either try to stick another arrow and in which case it's either gonna run away maybe I kill it or maybe it charges me and yeah 30 percent chance of each so as I might best bet is to just watch it and let it calmly finish its

“process and so that was a very long couple hours honestly watching it would stand up and I”

my heart would sink like no no no and then it would lay back down and like oh yes you understand that

that's a very emotional roller coaster and finally it stood up and tipped over and we were talking

about earlier but the joy that I felt was irreplaceable and I could you almost can't match it just that demon of starvation that for three weeks now just chewing out you're gonna start we're gonna start slay that how much meat you get off a moose like oh it was hard to say I probably had a little bit guessing me for 500 pounds I don't know had to be yeah big animal and then you have all the bone marrow and the brain and you know organ stuff talk about I don't know if

people like eaten liver but I got myself sick of it you got the liver the size of my body you know and I got there's no way to preserve it so you got to eat that thing first why can't you preserve liver versus other things usually things that are really bloody you know I have a lot of blood in them spoil fast so same with like fish if you catch a fish there's a blood line in there that you want to scrape out of the spoil okay and the gills carry bloods you want to rip those out or

to spoil any animal that you're gonna preserve you just want to make sure it's blood really well and liver for whatever reason is just saturated and there's no way to drain it you know so no man plenty of vitamins there for one god I'm just thinking the O.D. or vitamins of you oh yeah it's a little bit of a concern of you yeah for you uh adventurous eaters out there don't eat a polar bear

fat stall and noticed some very unique earrings on your wife this morning these may tie together

“yeah that's what happens the things what were the earrings man so you get you know you're out there”

and you're that things are going well but you're still living on the edge you know and the little mistakes can be the difference between surviving or not and so you know even the process of keeping yourself hydrated like we talk about is is a elaborate involved and thought out walk into your fishing holes like I better take some ash like a sprinkle in the really icy spots and you know everything's thought out and so the last thing you need is this whole extra variable coming in

and adding a bunch of difficulty well what'm learning to win out and I'd set my meat out on a shelf

with this like kind of half-hearted half-hearted but you know maybe a barrel come and if a bear comes

I can shoot that from my shelter so I could maybe double up you know almost like I'm ready made bake pile but I hadn't even really thought about the fact is that there's Wolverines up there and that they might show up and I might not hear it or notice it as much and so I came out one morning and I stored probably 90,000 calories worth of fat in this gallon jug I don't know how much is a gallon but full gallon of fat and I came out and there's like the day I like I'm going to

render that fat and I started looking around like what are these cracks? I don't know that's interesting like and then it just you slowly start to have something dawn like no and then I noticed my jug was gone and then those are Wolverine tracks and like oh no it was like ran down the tracks

“you know pointless I think's long gone and so I came back and I was like oh no I'm like”

got a Wolverine here and one thing you notice about the woods when you have meat every forest free loader knows you have the meat and so like all the jays and all the you know the wolves were coming around and the Wolverine now and just everybody's coming to get your meat and that Wolverine they're known as being some of the most ferocious animals you know on earth and just they're like that honey badger video everybody's seen but they're much larger and on steroids. It's like

a I guess it is technically in the we see a little bit yeah it's like if you take a weasel and put it on every performance enhancing drug imagine a bull like uh doll flunger and rocky for and and to give it on top of that just like a very irritable combat of demeanor like mean they're not huge like 40 pounds or whatever but they fight off wolf packs they take down full grown mousse yeah so just

think about that for a second guys 40 pound animal how much does a mousse weigh yeah a thousand pounds

I mean that's insane it is grab on and there's been stories of them holding onto a mousse's neck for days until the things suffocates of blood loss and die just like so terrible and so they make up for their size and just being aggressive and I was my first time of really dealing with one like that and so and how is he kept surprising me with how bold he was you know kind of figure okay that'll take care of it and then all of a sudden well right in front of me you know you run

by and grab a chunk of meat and run out you know away and so basically they were they came down to the fact that are either me or him on this island and that was very clear and he was claiming my meat and this and that night made a long trip wire again for him and uh with the cam with the can which it proved to be a really useful tool and then uh got one night I heard that thing clank came out of my shelter this was after the previous night of the similar situation happening and I

didn't take a shot at the Wolverine because he was behind a bush and so this next night I was like I'm just if I get a chance I'm gonna take it came out and he was behind a bush I could see his eyes glowing and I've just sent an arrow in there and it ricochet through and hit him but I could see him spinning around and I know what was exactly how I had hit him so I just grabbed the axe and ran over there and I got over there and he lunged at me and I could still see like he didn't really ground yeah but

he had like been pinned to the ground and the part of the arrow was stuck in the ground and part of his hung up on the alters so it like caught his lunge and I swung and it this rated him and then he spun around and it was like grabbing at his own injury and then I swung again and again you know but I definitely have this mental image of his teeth and his jump right at me and I could just see it's

“great to spend yeah it was good to spend I mean I think I want to still one but it would have been”

a lot more of we would have both suffered a lot more. I think you would have suffered a lot more. I was hoping I would win but now it was it was a it was a dead there was a very primal moment

green was just one of those things were like what just happened like that was crazy and I can't

believe that just happened anyway it solved this problem that had been harrowing me for weeks by that point and it was pretty limousines. The clouds have been turned into you. Yeah and so it had to make some earrings out of his claws. After my wife they're pretty nice. So to bring in something that was

“I don't think people would pick up on watching season six there's a point where as I think you put”

it to me when we're out in the woods you're like in effect and up to that point you'd been making plans yeah executing to plan sort of living on offense but you kill a Wolverine and so there's this kind of mystery in the show people might not immediately pick up on which is not the only Wolverine

I'm out. We were allowed to kill one Wolverine. Well that's the thing right. We have tags. These

up to follow these rules. That's not something that is. Yeah yeah I was absolutely able to kill a minute right out there. Oh, a minute from the final cut. I only had about a day of relief before I heard another Wolverine. I was like no. But this time I was in defense and it just happened to line up with a time of year where I had this very tangible mental shift that went from me being in that. You know when you're in fighter flight I was in fight. I was in like a proactive mode like you

say making plans, making things happen. Well now the ice was freezing on the lake and I couldn't go out and fish and so couldn't fish at least in the normal way. Yeah in the normal way I couldn't even go walk on the ice to ice fish yet. Right. So there's a couple of week period there where

“it's just hard to fish and then I had all the rabbits I needed honestly. So much protein with the”

moose that I've no reason for me to go kill or snare rabbits so I didn't do that. Also aka 12 paper. Yeah, they were great. What do you use for 12 paper? Oh the rabbit feet. That was quite luxurious. I could do that. Your imaginations can carry the rest of it. And then this Wolverine came and I had the only play defense and it was a very tangible shift that I went from being controlled my own destiny to all of a sudden being on this.

What felt like a downhill trajectory is like I've collected everything, collect and now I just see what happens and try to defend against the Wolverine and all I knew is wait for the ice to see. You know, I felt like a very different frame of mind and that was a more difficult period to get. I mean all these animals have optimized steel food. Yeah and lavender. And so especially something like Wolverine, like you can take the bark off of the pillars holding up

your elevated platforms. Yeah, I made a cool platform. The event you showed me, you know, I built a bunch of them with the natives and uh participate later on. You're almost killed himself trying to copy that. Yeah. Yeah. There's a certain technique to how to build them which was useful to know to do it safely. But you're also calculating like not using unnecessary calories. And so I should have finished it. There's actually a box in that raised platform and then you

build a box on top and it's pretty everything proof. But of course, again, that Wolverine kept surprising me. So I built the platform, done a few tricks to try to keep it from getting up there and then it got up there. And then by then it was like shoot, I should have built the thing, but you know anyway. So yep, learning on the fly and trying to react accordingly. Most people in modern life, they have their, I'm making this up right, random meal. But then I'm like

salmon or chicken breast, some veggies, maybe some pasta or spoutetta who knows. But you mentioned the fat being stolen. Yeah. And people can look up something called a rabbit starvation too. But

how important is fat? Yeah. You learned that really fast also. And that was the first time

just solely living off the land that I had where I didn't have any noodle back up or anything like that. And so for an extended period of time. So I was curious how long you could live off a rabbit. I was curious, you know, all this kind of stuff. And what I learned quite quickly was your body needs fat right away. And every day you're burning your fat reserves or fat you're bringing in the protein. It's actually more attainable out there. There's a lot of little animals and a lot of things

even mushrooms have protein in them. But the fat is the bottle neck of survival for sure.

“And so that's why we love it. I guess, but it was a it had just proved and it was so interesting to”

observe the animals is how honed everybody was in on just the fat. The Wolverine, the crows, the jays, everything would just try to get the fattiest part of your fish or balls. I wrong

Eat kind of the fatty belly area. There's obviously the same thing too, right? Like when they're grabbing salmon, if so you feel like they're plentiful enough. They eat the brand leave, leave all of the meat. Yeah, that's pretty interesting. So yeah, that's the fuel of the forest out there. All right. So let's talk about some new projects. Well, first of all,

I mean, not really first of all, but less I forget where can people get one of these incredible

axes? Yeah, I have one. People did not, you know, just run around. You're living. I'm swinging. That's like a toy. It's not a toy, but it's a tool. But it's a it's a uniquely designed

“I don't want to say all in one, but multipurpose tool. Yeah, I think if like people take the time to”

learn it and learn its nuances, you'll love it. But there's a learning curve to it because it is like a kind of a finely tuned machine. But the uh, Jordan Jonas dot com, I have a website, Jordan Jonas and Jordan Jonas dot com, you know, slash acts. You can get that. There's two versions. There's a this is a little bit smaller version. It's easier to carry when you're backpacking and stuff.

And then I have like the full or bigger version that if you're on the farmer to car camping,

things like that has a little more heft. And then if people and you and I have to book some time before this goes live so that it's screw myself here. But if people want to experience what it's like to go into the wilderness with you, which I highly recommend. If you can do it,

“guys, you will learn a ton. It is, you will not be able to absorb everything like there's there's”

going to be a lot that you pick up and they're able to practice, which was so fun, like not just some of the finer details of fundamental survival skills, but learning how to use a relatively simple tool like a tankar rod, right? Like just learning how to utilize a simple tool. Well,

right, same with the acts. So how can people learn more about? Yes, same, same deal. It's like, you know,

the Instagram, the follow along YouTube, Jordan Jones, our mission in Instagram. Yeah, JordanJones.com is where I have access to sign up for courses and sign up for, you know, there's unsavailable there and stuff that people can guide you on. But yeah, they do book pretty quick like this season's booked, but it's like, I'm all about taking people out on private trips and stuff. You just have to

“kind of get in early or wait for my schedule to come out for next year and try to squeeze in.”

I love a man. It's been such a cool way to share what I love. I talked about it earlier with the purpose. It's kind of I have this stage of my life. The purpose is to find and try to share the lessons that I've gained with others and I really enjoy it. Find it meaningful and I know people get a lot out of it. So I would love to see some folks out there. So speaking of purpose, the book. No, yeah. What do you up to? Why write a book? My life and I talk about it fairly

often that it's like we have a life that is very good, very full. I know in a lot of levels I would say like emotionally spears down the family. It's a big blessing when I was on a loan to it kind of struck me. I was like, this is a well, how's this situation that's so difficult or it may even life changing for people. It just kind of felt like another trip to Russia or like a felt very normal for me. I was like, I wonder what prepared me in life to make this kind of unusual situations seem normal.

And just to provide the counter to that. I mean, people break on this show. Right. Yeah. And it looked in a lot of different ways. Sometimes it's a very dramatic fashion. Hmm. And so I made me a little bit introspective about what had prepared me for it. Well, and in thinking about those things as I mean, there really are some patterns of my being that have created, you know, and Tim, if you guys listen, no, he's really good at naming things in

putting a place on it. But they have created like a reservoir of resilience that I can tap into, and that is well exercise. And I just thought it would be really interesting to share with people through the story of my life and all these kind of fun stories, but also some of the keys to living a life well, really, but by building a resilience that'll help that. And what is interesting is you want to build that resilience before you find yourself in the situation, because once you find

yourself in the situation, it's often a little late. And so the key is to come through hard times and

putting light into the world. So as me trying to help like a grandparents and rock my grandparents,

“like my dad, it's me trying to help people learn the lessons that I've learned that might help”

make their reservoir of resiliency and a fill up so that they're able to come front things as they come. So it's a fun project. I got Harper Collins and I partnered up on it and it'll be what I work on this year. It's been fun. It's been fun. When's the tentative update plan? I mean, I didn't early, I started at 2027. Yeah, exciting. Yeah, it is exciting. Very exciting. It's a fun new project. Yeah, I'm going to, for people who, I really encourage people to watch season six and seven. There's a red

thread titled quote, can we agree that you're running from season six is the best contestant

to play at the game. And it just goes on and on and on and on. Oh, I'm some disagreement. I there. Yes. I mean, it's red. It's red. It's red. It's good. So of course. It's just funny. But you mentioned hardship and earlier this morning or chatting because I was, I was in Tennessee and was with very, very skilled podcaster and kind human, Sean Ryan. Oh, yeah. And found this folded up piece of paper. Sure. I was sitting in an end up being a copy of the serenity prayer. And I have

long been a fan of the serenity prayer in part because it has echoes of and reinforces a lot of

my reading and stoicism. What I didn't realize is that what I thought was the serenity prayer is actually

just a small piece of it. Are you able to pull it up in your phone, by chance? Yeah, I mean, it's a great. It's a great prayer. It'll read the full thing here. It says, God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change for the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. Then it goes on. Living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardships as the pathway to peace, taking as he did this sinful world as it is not as I would have it,

trusting that he will make all things right if I surrender to his will, so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with him in the next. Has a lot of interesting concepts. There's, you know, everyone, but most people are familiar with this start. The next one is like living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time. There was that lesson I got slapped with on a loan where I'm worried about the future and where the ended up not coming. And then

accepting hardship as the pathway to peace is we were discussing this morning. You know, it's a quite a profound bit of wisdom and there's a lot in there, right? It's just, it's why, I mean, some of my favorite maybe concepts, maxims from Buddhists, philosophy from stoicism. It is so neatly wrapped into the serenity stoicism. It's so beautifully put and it just kind of blew my mind

“that I had such a partial understanding of it. Yeah, because I only knew, I think like most people,”

the very beginning and not the rest. Jordan, is there people can find you Jordan Jonas.com, J.O.N.A.S. They can find you on Instagram and YouTube @ Hobojo. If you last, every time I say it, is there anything else you'd like to say anything like to add, ask my audience? We've all been noticing lately that the political division is ramping up more and more. I've been thinking a lot about the idea that so many people I know

and love over the years have vastly divergent political opinions, but when you filter each other through politics, you really likely to see people as avatars of an ideology rather than as fellow humans. And I see that right now with, seems like with immigration's the hot topic

“at the moment. Of course, I believe we should keep track of immigration and who comes in and people”

who take advantage of the system shouldn't because there's a social contract and trust that has to be shared and maintained in a society. But at the same time, I have a personal belief based on my faith that I should help those in need when I have the ability. So in my personal life, I have chosen to take on, for example, in my case, a couple who were rushing asylum seekers didn't want to go to the front in Ukraine. So they fled, but I don't expect others to be forced via the government

in taxation to live out my morality. And I don't judge or think ill of those who don't because I know there is a genuine sacrifice there. So I don't use politics to vicariously fulfill

that a person who lived out ethic in the world requires. And if I have the government,

they'll fill my morality across me nothing and I can even find myself in a situation where I'm

“judging people who might actually practically be doing more to bear the actual burden of what I think”

is right in the world. So I think if more people approach their morality by a personal level actively, but also taking responsibility for it in their lives, the reality has a way of tempering the extremes. And it cuts in every direction. If someone on the right has a really strong opinion about abortion, it's like the faster children adopt support single moans. If someone on the left has

a really strong opinion about wanting an open border, taking an immigrant family, support them,

you know, using your own means and social connections, get to know the complexity that comes when you do all that and you'll find your, you'll actually understand people that don't because it is a sacrifice and you'll be less judgmental and probably less self-righteous. So some might have been thinking about a little bit lately. Working that out is my favorite part of my spiritual path of Christianity. It's like, I don't have a law. Like I don't know what I'm supposed

to do usually. I'm supposed to filter like the real world through this ideal of love,

your neighbor as yourself. Love, learn your God. And in doing so, I'm constantly like,

what does it mean to love your enemy? Like that's not realistic. Like what's it mean to give to everybody of us? That's not realistic, but it makes me wrestle with this thing. And in that, I actually have that, it all comes to life. Whereas I could have chosen to throw it out at some point and throw all that wrestling out with it. But I would have lost a lot of what provides

“meaning and value in my life also. And yeah, so I don't know, working that out in your life is”

super valuable. It strikes me. I'm in this framing of wrestling with God. And look, I know I'm getting over my skis here a bit, but it's the people who wrestle with X, who foster a type of introspection that I think often leads to decisions that are better aligned with their truest of true values. Right, right, right. Yeah, he's a little dangerous when you know for sure. And so it's, uh, well, there's just that struggle. I guess. Yeah, I mean, I don't know

attribution, but it's like, you know, admire the secret of the truth, beware that person is found the truth. Yeah. I mean, there are times when it's like to have solid values or principles that you choose to live your life by, but at the same time, to wrestle and ask questions, you know, under what circumstances would this not be right and across exam, and it's asking a lot of people, I recognize. I'm asking a lot of anyone. Right. Because it's easy to just have a four millimeter

follow like the highest path is to like work it out. Well, I admire how you have tried to work it

“out. I think it's a very thoughtful approach. It's not an easy approach. And I just love what”

you do in the world, man. I feel like you're reintroducing people to a lot of core evolved sensitivities that make humans human. And when you do that, the abstractions and the concepts that people are willing to go to blows over on social media just fall away as what they are, which is typically some type of artificial line and the sand that people have chosen and been encouraged to take on as some type of team identity. And that just falls away when you simplify things and put people in an

environment where they can see that. I think it's really beautiful and people don't have to live in Montana to do that. Right. There are ways to seek it out. So I appreciate taking time on the show, man. It's going to seem to him. It's been fun getting to know you and hanging out with you in the woods. Yeah. And really enjoyed it. Yeah. I'm excited, man. I get way to pack in my own acts. Now, next time and make absolutely sure I don't stick it into my foot. So instead of be continued,

thanks Jordan. Yeah. And for people listening, we'll link to all sorts of things in the show notes, Tim Dublog slash podcast, just search Jordan. And there may be one other Jordan. And you can certainly search Jonas. There's not going to be another Jonas. He'll pop right up. Until next time

Jack Cornfield, if your compassion does not include yourself, then your compassion is incomplete.

“Actually, tune in. Hey guys. This is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off. And that is”

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