Catherine Fitts: Epstein, CIA Black Budget, the Control Grid, and the Banks’ Role in War

Katherine Austin fits, thank you for doing this. >> Hucker, thank you for doing this.

>> The first time we did an interview over a year ago,

different worlds completely. I remember thinking, wow, I've rarely spoken to anyone who thinks in such big terms, I mean, that is a compliment. I wonder if this is all true. I think time has proven you.

Right, we've had a couple of meals in the subsequent months.

“And so I just want to say, I think you're really wise”

and I'm grateful to have you. >> So I want you to know it was only 10 months ago, but it seems like that's a long time. >> Man, I'm as fine.

>> Yeah, I meet people in airports all the time were like,

I used to think I was a conspiracy theorist. Now I know, I was, you know, but it's kind of a variety of that. But last time we had lunch a couple months ago, you were telling me about, and I wish we had this on tape, when we can recreate it here, about the control grid,

a concept that you had explained when we lasted an interview, and how it was, as you said it, on snapping into place. >> Can you, can you just, for people who haven't seen your previous talk, explain what the control grid is, what it looks like and what it means?

“>> So the control grid is a process or an infrastructure that allows”

digital technology to be used to assert phenomenal surveillance and control of people, and at the very heart of it is what I call programmable money. So it's money that is no longer just a currency. It's money that comes with a set of rules that can be surveilled and forced.

So imagine back in the pandemic, if your money, if I said, okay, you've got to like down in your money won't work if you leave your house. You can't buy gas in your car because your money is programmed with AI and software to enforce a whole set of centralized rules. And programmable money allows the bankers who've been running monetary policy

to now control fiscal policy and essentially replace legislatures and executive branch by making and enforcing the rules through the money. Now that requires a large infrastructure of surveillance. So you need digital IDs and then you need the hardware locally and globally

“to do the surveillance and implementations.”

So for example, if you look at the local hardware and now people are seeing it, you know, now that it's material, they're beginning to see it snap into place. So I don't know if you know a flat cameras, but there are many communities across the United States that are entering into contracts paid by the taxpayers to put up cameras all around their neighborhood

that track license plates and keep that data and share it with a variety of people. Or you have the FCC is trying to overrule local controls on cell towers. So they can literally put cell towers every 400 to 700 feet so that they can have the kind of invasive surveillance you need. Or you have satellites now that can literally beam in Wi-Fi.

So that whether you have Wi-Fi in your home or not, they can start to track you. And all those systems come, put you in what I call the panopticon. So we saw in the Middle East with the first war with Iran, we saw 11 liters out of 12 sort of top liters and science and government assassinated because they're literally tracking everyone and they can identify them and track them.

And then you have invisible weaponry that can then take them out or, you know, can identify missile strikes. So masquitos suit, so you're talking about the 12 day war against Iran in June of 2025. We were led to believe just as newspaper readers or news consumers that those 11 Iranian officials were targeted with human intelligence, you know, that Israel had spies inside of Iran.

But you're saying that was done digitally.

That's probably, I would assume that that's probably true because you always want to get

human confirmation of what the systems are telling you. It's always better if you're both. But we are now moving into building out the kind of surveillance systems that can literally track identify and integrate with not only our existing weaponry, but ultimately autonomous weaponry.

So anyway, so let me step back, you've got three parts to the control grid. And it's the local hardware and infrastructure and that includes the data centers because if you did, I thought those were for AI. They are because if you look at what it takes to apply the equivalent of a social credit system to people's money, so the social credit system I applied to you is different than

the one I applied to me. And if you look at the data I need to track you and test whether or not you're following the rules I've given you and enforce those rules, it's an explosive amount of data

So what is AI good at, Tucker?

AI is here. Is spatial control movement control? Yes, so turn off the car. So Congressman Massey is trying to kill the kill switch in your car. That's because spatial control means I can turn off your car or I can set it so your money

won't work more than a mile from your home or a 15 minute city. So you literally, you're not allowed to leave your 15 minute city and your transportation and your money won't work outside of that area. So let me step back. So what is AI good at?

AI is very good at tracking things that can be expressed mathematically. And financial transactions and spatial movement can be expressed mathematically. And so what the AI centers are for primarily is to build that digital control grid and to manage that data. So and now it can be used for many other purposes, too.

So it's not just going to be used for control. But to me, that's the primary purpose and that if you look at the cameras, if you look at the cell towers, if you look at the satellites and then the AI, the data centers, those are all component pieces of the local hardware. So there are three sort of pillars that I track.

“One is the programmable money and that's what we at Salary are trying to stop.”

The second is the digital ID because you need a global, you need digital ID systems that

are interoperable globally and then the local hardware. And those are sort of the three pillars. And what's interesting is there's phenomenal development of all three. We have a commentary at Salary where we track, it's called the Faster Proaching Digital Control Grid and every week we update.

All the things they're being done to build those three pillars and have them integrate with each other. And ever since the inauguration has been moving very, very quickly, now it's both sides of the uniparty. They come at it in different ways and they do different things.

But this is, you know, ultimately what this is doing is this is going to a point where the central bankers, whether they do it with a central bank digital currency or private stable coins and asset tokens, are setting the world up so that they can control your financial transactions literally in real time with the equivalent of a social credit system.

I have so many questions. What I've probably been in six or seven, eight countries in the last month.

“And I think in every single country I had biometrics taken, either fingerprint or facial”

recognition. Right. What role to biometrics play in the control grid? That's part of the digital ID system and that facilitates the surveillance. And it's interesting.

So we do a lot to promote cash because I think there are many things we can do to slow down or stop the digital control system. But one of it is by embracing analog and keeping analog alive because to go to a really serious programmable money, you need an all digital financial system. So we do a lot with cash.

But people will tell you if you go to Walmart, you leave your phone in the car and you use cash, you come out having made a purchase and the next thing you know, the next day on your phone, you get a tax from the company of the product you bought at Walmart. So they were able to identify you. It's because of the biometrics.

They have your facial recognition. I had a crazy experience with cash. I thought of you right before Christmas, I wanted to pay employees of bonus in cash. What you always do. And so as my wife treated the bank, she did Wells Fargo Brands.far from her house.

“I wanted to take out this amount pretty large amount, but not crazy, right?”

And they said, no, we can't give you the money. And why? Because we think that you are being scammed that there's probably someone outside with a gun demanding that you withdraw cash and she's like, what? No.

So it's called me.

Anyway, I finally went into the bank and got upset.

It wasn't their fault. They were being told. I think my federal regulators not to give me cash. And I said, I thought the point of a bank was to hold my money. You loan it out of interest.

I get less interest from you, so you make the money, but my money safe. But I get it when I want, because I made it at my job. And they're like, we're so sorry. We're so sorry, but they wouldn't give me the cash. Took two weeks to get the cash.

So what is that? It's called Notching. Do you know what Notching is? No. Oh, there's all science of Notching.

So if you're the central bankers and you want to take cash down to zero, what you do is you create lots of different kinds of rules and regulations that nudge people in that direction. OK, so that's one of the things that's happening. And you use these things as an excuse.

Now, there's something else happening. So that's not my imagination. That's part of a strategy to be an attitude. Part of what was happening was Notching. Now, if you look at the person who implemented that, they're getting a role.

And one of the reasons they're getting the role and one of the things they use to do

the Notching with is you, if you look at the amount of cyber crime and financial fraud that's happening that is causing people to go down and get cash, it's real. And the banks are losing a great deal of money on it. And it's a serious problem, particularly because if you look at the technology used to

“using it to be implemented, you know, I believe they're using our warfare.”

So they get these people very addicted online and they get them doing sort of crazy financial things. I was trying to wire was in the Netherlands, I was trying to wire 5,000 euros to one of the people who works for me. And my bank stopped it because they felt that I was a victim of a romance crime.

A romance crime. I said, no, I sure this person writes my loving art column. It's not a romance. I mean, it's there's a romance with art here, but it's not with each other. Well, 2026 is likely to be a theater that some companies will find patriotism, or discover

it. During the Biden years, corporate America thought hating our country was the thing to do. So they did it.

“Now that we're in a new era, they are coming back to reality.”

It's not real, though. It's a trick. They don't mean it at all. Black rifle means it and they've been doing it since day one, not just discovering patriotism. They were founded on the premise.

As this country celebrates 250 years of existence, Black rifle is brewing bold American roasted beans, built for people who believe in the values that made America great. So kick off 2026 with roast made from patriots, not spectators. And for the new year, Black rifle is launching cold brew coffee cans in just black and vanilla.

Powerful smooth and made in America.

Want something even more explosive? Try grapex or tiger strike. Woo, their new zero sugar energy drinks with 200 milligrams of caffeine. That's about half the output of a nuclear power plant. But it's clean energy for Americans who mean business.

Visit black rifle dot com slash Tucker used the code Tucker for 30% off, or find black rifle at Walmart, target roger, or have a great prox or sold black rifle coffee, veteran founded America roasted, it's America's coffee. Just show that, okay, but you would think that banks beset by cybercrime would want to encourage the use of cash.

So, you know, the banks are in a movement for more and more central control. Again, the financial system for 20 plus years has been steadily moving in all different layers from regulatory to these kinds of things, from a world where the bankers control monetary policy to a world where they control fiscal policy. And that's all.

The nudging is all part of moving. You explain the difference for those of us who are not economically fluent. Okay. So, since 1913, the United States has a governmental structure where the central bank, the Federal Reserve, which is the Board of Governors in Washington, and the 12 central banks,

managed monetary policy.

So, they basically working with the banks, run the financial transactions.

The New York Fed runs the governmental accounts, they control the government back accounts. And their policies of Fed funds interest rate and money onto the reserve tracks affects the money supply and basically the money supply and how the money works. Okay. So, it's more complicated than that because they have lots of regulatory functions.

But the people vote for their representatives, so whether it's the State House or the Congress, they vote for elected representatives from their jurisdiction in the area. And those people decide fiscal policy, which is what taxes do we collect, what tariffs

“do we collect, what bonds do we sell and raise money, and how does that money gets spent?”

So, my representative's year representatives are determining fiscal policy and the bankers are determining monetary policy and its balance of power between the people and the bankers. Now with the digital control grid and programmable money, the bankers can assert control of fiscal policy and they can set, they can just decide what the taxes are and take them out of your account and they can essentially determine the rules of how it all gets spent.

So, it's a very, you know, a sort of financial coup d'état that over time, you know, they want to assert complete control of fiscal and monetary policy and essentially the legislatures will go to being sort of shown tell or, you know, go out of business. We're moving quickly in that direction where the legislatures in every country are becoming

So here's my theory, though, if you go back to 9/11 and when Wesley Clark said we're going to invade seven countries in five years, what you were talking about were the countries where those central banks were not on board to do programmable money and their governance structures were not on board with essentially, you know, because of Epstein, I'll call the Rockefeller Rothschild model.

There was an effort to say, okay, you know, basically assert control of the central

banks in those countries.

“That's my interpretation and I think one of the reasons we're seeing so much tension around”

Iran is because Iran right now is the big leakage in the system. How? So, it's not about their nooks. So, well, you know, Iran's central bank counts, one of the reasons it counts is because their oil and energy is very important, including for China.

And that's very important in the brick system. What the brick system is trying to do is to create independent payment systems. But if you're going to come out with programmable money with digital IDs that are interoperable globally and programmable money that controls in each jurisdiction, centrally, you can't afford leakage.

And so, you've got way too much leakage in the system to proceed with what they're trying to do. And Iran is, and the brick nations are a sticking point. And certainly Iran's oil, you know, feeding China gives China greater independence. So you think that one of the motives behind toppling all these governments was the creation

of the control grid we're talking about now. Right. So, if you go back, so you have the wonderful Richard Warner on your show. And Richard has a book called The Princess of the Ant, which is about the sort of effort to take over the Japanese central bank.

“And I think what you're looking at, I think part of the state of play with both Russia”

and Iran, is how are you going to make sure that those central banks are entirely in the system?

So, yeah, that was an amazing interview.

And he told the story about writing this book on the Japanese central bank, I can't imagine a more obscure topic from my non-economically minded standpoint to be writing a book on postcards from the Falkan Islands. It's like, it's just like, okay, a book on the Japanese central bank. And he said, well, actually, they suppressed it.

I couldn't get a publish the United States and you can't get a copy. And that's like checkable. So, I checked it. You can't get a copy that book. It's really hard.

You can, I think you can order from his publisher right now. Okay.

“But, I mean, that, like, why would someone try to suppress it?”

Because it shows you the truth. It takes you right into the secret government system and it shows you the primary mechanism by which they implement policy. Yeah.

Well, it's always the things you're not allowed to say are probably the important things.

Right. Whenever they penalize you for having a thought, you're probably on the right track. Well, it's, it's, it's one of the critical train tracks of control. So it's what I call the third rail. So I use stiff finance transit systems and train systems.

So, you know, a lot of these systems have two tracks that the wheels go on. And then they have a third rail that the power line runs on. And you get a train trap that flips over and sucks the energy from the third rail. So a lot of the things that really operate the third rail are very invisible. And, for example, in central banking, to listen, to talk about Tier 1 and Tier 2 and Tier 3 capital

with the BIAS and the banks, there's nothing more boring. It's designed to, absolutely. I just fell asleep in the middle of that side. Right. Exactly.

Right. Right. Is it boring by design? I, you know, the way you're talking to talk about it is boring. But it's like the mechanisms of the legal system.

If you look at the mechanisms of civil procedure, criminal procedure, you know, and you get into the weeds on it. It can be very boring unless you understand the application and that can make it very interesting. But the capital, most people don't understand the capital's sort of regulatory system. Yeah.

It can get very, very boring. It's been a lot of noise in the news recently, but not a bit matters if you can't hear it. There's a shame in this, millions of people get defer every year. Some we know well.

But your friends, our friends at Audion, can help for years the experts made hearing aids

They forced you to get a prescription, see a doctor jump through all these hoops just

to hear your grandkids talk or have a conversation in a restaurant. Why? Because they made money. Over 460 million people worldwide have hearing loss, hit 80% do not have hearing aids because who would want to deal with that.

“So it's a crisis and it's being ignored, and that's why Audion is the answer.”

It offers FDA-compliant hearing aids for his low is 98 bucks. No prescription, no doctors visit, over a million and a half Americans already using them to regain clarity in their life to regain hearing. You can find them at nearly 10,000 retailis nationwide, including Walmart and Walgreens,

Audion's doing the system should have done all along, making essential health care affordable

for everyone. Go to here, Tucker.com, that's H-E-A-R, Tucker.com, or call 1-800-453-2916 to learn more about how Audion can help you or someone you love hear better. Back to programmable digital currency of all the features that you've described so far of the control grid, that's the one that is not fully implemented with that be fair to

say. So let me describe, yeah, it's not at all, and it's important to be talking about this

“now because if imagine a tsunami approaching us, there is a tsunami approaching us.”

Right now, if you look at the traditional financial system, we're talking about hundreds of trains of dollars, stocks, bonds, global stocks and bonds market. The crypto marketer, or money, is issued on a distributed ledger, it's tiny, so maybe it's $4 trillion compared to $250 trillion just counting stocks and bonds, and then we have the currency market, which is bigger.

So most people in the traditional financial system look at the distributed ledger system and say, you know, it's tiny, it's tokens. Last year, we passed the Genius Act. So if you heard of the Genius Act, so people who are quite a bitter fight over it too. There's a, there was a bitter fight.

The big bitter fight right now is over the Clarity Act. So the Genius Act created a regulatory framework for stablecoins, and I'll explain stablecoins a second. The Clarity Act was passed in the house last year. It's complement in the Senate is called, it's a discussion draft called the Responsible

Financial Innovation Act, and so the final Acts name, I'll call it the Clarity Act, but I don't know which it will be. The Senate and the House have not agreed, and that has become a very bitter fight, and I can explain what that's about. The reason the Genius Act and the Clarity Act are very, very important is there has been

a push to say, we don't want central bank digital currency because we don't want the central banks putting the banks out of business and controlling centrally. What has happened though is now they're doing a form of private, think of it as private CBDC, stablecoins and digital assets and tokens that can essentially implement the same social credit and control system, but through private issuers.

So let me turn to stablecoins for a second, because the Genius Act has passed, they're working

on regulations that will come out at the end of this year at the beginning of next year. If a stablecoin is issued, it's a crypto issued on a distributive ledger, and it's basically the money that is received by the stablecoin is reinvested in either treasury bills that are 93 days or shorter in maturity or high-quality bank deposits, so cash. So basically it's 100% collateralized, so when you have a stablecoin, it's like having

“a little treasury bill, a dollar of treasury bill, okay?”

So think of yourself as using a treasury bill. It's not so different from you as currency. No, no, it's certainly in terms of value, and the reason you call it a stablecoin is you're hoping theoretically a stablecoin could be done on other currencies as well, but you're hoping that a dollar's stablecoin will not be valid in price, the way many crypto's

are valid on price, so it's designed so the price is stable, okay, so one of the hopes and one of the reasons that we're issuing the stablecoins is as foreign purchases of treasury is diminished, we're hoping that you can put out stablecoins worldwide and attract retail money into the treasury market, so the wholesale market is rejecting you, and so now through the mobile payments systems, you can put out stablecoin.

It's another way of propping up US debt. It's another way of preserving US dominance, dollar dominance, okay, and but the danger of course is there are two dangers, one is if everyone in your town in Maine pulls their money out of the bank and puts it on their mobile payment stablecoin, all the loan market

Because they're leaving your local economy and going into the treasury market to finance

the feds. So what Amazon did to retailers in town's stablecoin could do to banks and towns? To community banks and credit unions, now they can also issue stablecoins, but again, that money is going to go into the treasury market rather than, you know, multiply on Main Street. There's been a real quiet war over the last 20, 30 years because the federal regulators

have pushed the community banks and credit unions to not make loans on Main Street, but put their money in the investment portfolio where they do buy treasuries. And this is all part of getting your local economy more and more dependent on federal money. I'm seeing this.

Yes. All to, they're only like four trends in the modern world and they're, this is one

of them, power money, centralize, go to the national capital away from the provinces.

It's like, it's happening.

“Well, but here's the thing, and this is the little secret to real solutions.”

If, if you look at the last 50 years or 70 years since World War Two, every effort has been made through taxes or credit or various financial mechanisms to get all the money to go into central and come back down, right? And now, if you go into most communities, so America's 3,100 counties, most counties 40 or 50% of the income in that county is coming through, you know, it goes up to Wall Street

or Washington and comes back down. And so you end up with more and more central control. And here's the little secret. It's economically insane. If you could do more money going around, you could make the pie much bigger.

Well, of course. Right. Just like power transmission, the longer you have to move power along lines, the more power you lose, right? Exactly.

And technology should advance the little guy, not the big guy. So, you know, go back to the two spots there that thank you for, I mean, as you show so old I am that I know what you're talking about because that was the original promise. Right. That, I mean, it's hard to believe now, but 30 years ago, when the internet was being

introduced to the public, the idea was this is empowering for the, for the average person. So when that happened, that was when my company, this was the fight I had with the Department of Justice. We built software tools. We had one software tool called Community IPO on a box to help everybody locally facilitate

equity, you know, stock markets for local areas. But we built a software tool called Community Wizard. And you could dial in and say, my neighborhood is my county or my zip code or my congressional district. And you could map out the sources and uses of all federal credit and money in your community.

So you could get the equivalent of a financial statement for the jurisdictions in which you vote for political representation. So you could really hold your congressman accountable because you could see a financial statement for your jurisdiction. And the Department of Justice sees our offices, sees the software, put it, it took me six

years to get it out from the courts.

“And when I got it out from the courts, it was missing all the most important pieces.”

It's funny that you want to discourage accountability. Well, what I discovered when I was in the administration was that if the local business people could see how the money works around them, they could get back in the game. So you know, we regularly saw, I told you this before, we regularly saw communities where HUD was spending 250,000 per unit to build public housing and 50,000 would buy and rehab

of a single family foreclosed property in the same foreblock area. And I literally, but it was the same with jobs. We were paying a contractor in Washington, 125 per hour to do something that we could keep local. You didn't need to set it all the way up there.

So that a big contractor could, corporate contractor could do it. So there was a great story during the financial crisis where a woman lost her job, very

responsible hardworking, couldn't find another job, ultimately had to take food stamps,

which was a matter of great shame for her. And so she had a problem with them and called tech support and got a woman in India working for JP Morgan Chase, who had at that point 37 of the state food stamp programs, they were managing. And she said, wait a minute, you know, I could do this job.

And if I was doing this job, it wouldn't need food stamps. So why are we sending it to India with a big mark up for a big bank when I could just do this job and then I would need food stamps. It's hard not to see malice in there somewhere. Oh, there's total malice.

“So I mean, here's the thing, if I have a publicly traded stock and it's trading at a”

price earnings ratio of 10, just make it simple. If I make it dollar, my stock goes up $10, right?

mainstream is making and shifted into a publicly traded stock, that stock will go up

10 million. What's the biggest source of political contributions? Capital gains, right? So the more I shift money out of mainstream into publicly traded stocks, the more I get the pop on the stock and the more investors of real estate capital gains or company enterprise

capital gains, the more money they'll give. So, you know, so in Washington, there's this giant sucking sound.

“So let's go back to the pandemic, remember the pandemic?”

Yeah, I vaguely. You shut down mainstream, which is not publicly traded. And suddenly, all their market share has to go to publicly traded stocks, either online companies or the big box stores.

So never forget, there's a wonderful moment during the pandemic, when Rick Santilly's

standing on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, and he's saying, in Andrew Sorcon is up in the studio, and Santilly says, "This makes no sense. I'm going to the mall, all the little companies are closed. Costco's next door, and the parking lot's packed and Costco's packed. It doesn't make any sense.

Why are the little guys have to be shut down for the virus? But, you know, it's okay next door, because the parking lot's packed, people are all congregated in, you know, they're all together. And Sorcon says, "The virus can't go in Costco, it can't go in the big box stores. That's science."

“Well, because Sorcon believes in science.”

But here's the thing. If you look at how much money was made by Wall Street, it was a giant sucking sound of market share into publicly traded stocks, and then the capital gains go back around, you know, for the political contributions. So, I told you, I have an online book that explains how this works, which I've tried

to publish three times in each time it's gotten sabotaged the last time they threatened somebody in my family.

So, I backed off and never published.

It's online. It's not censored, but I've never put it in hardback. And I'm waiting for everybody to die, and then I'll publish it again. I'll try for the fourth time, but it shows you exactly how the game works on a private prison company that my old firm had financed.

So, I show you, I get out all the SEC documents, and I show you the game and how it works, how it translates into capital gains, and that... Did you just summarize it really quickly? Yeah. So, we started a movement in the early '90s to privatize a portion of the prison system.

I remember. It's economically insane. I think that was for it for the record.

“I've had so many dumb positions over the years that I think I was for that.”

So, at the time that I wrote the analysis, the best figures I could get from general accounting office was it was costing... The whole criminal justice system was costing 154,000 per person per year, and one of the reasons was the construction of all these private facilities, one of my theories, but I showed you, was the stocks were trading on a per bed basis.

Okay. So, if you could get a law passed that mandated longer census, the stocks would go up, because you get a bigger PE per bed, and literally what they did was they started the companies, and then they started a program to drop squad teams into neighborhoods to literally drop in and round up kids.

So, who could be dealing drugs or not? You know who was still bringing in the drugs, it wasn't the kids, and literally they cut off and DC, they cut off the money to the public defenders office, so the kids had to all cop, please, and that would stuff the prisons. And at the same time what they did is they created a company at the department of justice

called Unicorn that could market prison labor to corporations for tiny dollars. No, really. It's a slavery system. Obviously. Justice slavery system in the book described, it's called Dillon Reed and the aristocracy

of stock profits, and explains how the whole system works, who made money, how they made money. And what's sad about it is, you know, my guess from doing that analysis is that many of the people making money on it are the same people who are making money bringing in the drugs, and I describe all those things.

So, and the power of the book took me a year to write it, and I had a, I was living in Montana, and you couldn't walk in my house. You could only step on piles of SEC documents, and there are literally hundreds of thousands of pages of documentation behind it because I had to prove all the different pieces of

And so we put up all the documentation, and it was, you know, it was quite astonishing because it really helped people who had trouble understanding the growing central control. It helped them to see that it was very intentional. The saddest fact that moment we're living in is that the American dream itself is evaporating for a lot of young people, and how do you know that because they can't afford to buy homes?

Owning property, something that was completely normal, it was America, just to generation and go, is now a dream for so many people. We're using by now pay later apps to buy food, dinner, and credit. So what you're watching is the slow failure of systems that don't work anymore. This isn't nostalgia, things really are getting worse, and you can feel it.

So for nearly 80 years, the US dollar sat at the center of our economic system, after World World War II, the world trusted the dollar because it trusted the strength and the discipline of American leaders, and that trust sadly is fading. You can see it wouldn't central banks are doing right now. Quietly, the historical levels across the world, they are buying gold, not ETFs, but actual

gold, and putting in an actual fault.

“That's what China's doing, dumping treasury is buying gold.”

So when the people closest to the system are hedging against the dollar, you should probably pay attention.

They are going to what they've always gone to from the beginning of recorded history, gold.

Owning today is not a radical move, oh, it's so radical you're buying gold. You'd be insane not to. It's what we do in my house. And we really mean it. We mean it enough to found battalion metals.

Battalion metals give Americans a straightforward way to buy fair price gold and silver, not at 50 points above spot, but like three points above spot right to your house. We will deliver it to you. It's the quickest, fastest, most reliable way to do it, and battalion metals has access to the most stable supply of actual metals you're going to find in this country, period.

Battalion metals.com/tucker is the address, go there learn more, including how to convert your IRA into a precious metals IRA that's battalion metals.com/tucker. In order to implement any big society wide change, and I think your COVID example is a perfect one, you really have to construct a crisis, and the change is a solution to whatever the problem you created is, so like if you, I don't know, want to create a new federal agency,

you probably need a 9/11.

“If you want to make biometrics, the rule you probably have to push AI and make the case”

that like we don't know who anybody is, because everything's a deep fake, so you have to have biometrics in, you know, in your Twitter handle, et cetera. What will be the crisis that justifies digital currency?

So let me step back for a second because what I see is the crisis is only the apex and

the third act. To get the crisis working, you have to get thousands of things in place. So for example, coming into COVID, I don't think you could have done COVID without, for example, setting federal accounting standards, advisory board statement, 56 into place in 2018, and then having the central bankers meet and approve the going directly.

I'm not familiar with that. I will, I would be delighted to tell you about that because this is one of those things that sounds very boring that is like a, you know, a 10-ricter earthquake. So for many, many years, there was a group of us who were trying to bring as much transparency to the fact that there was serious criminality going on in the federal accounts and $21 trillion

was missing. And that was happening because the federal government refused to obey the financial management law. So they are required. Just in you pay your taxes, they're required to give you, you know, you give them your

10-40 and they're required to give you back and says, "Okay, here's how we spent your money." And that's required in the Constitution and the financial management laws. The federal government has, has said the mid-90s been a complete violation of those laws. So there was a lot of pressure that was brought to bear when Dr. Mark Skidmore, with

Salary published his report on the 21 trillion missing. And so pressure, pressure, the DOD keeps saying, you know, we can't pass it on, we're not going to pass it on it.

“And then 2018, remember the cavernal hearings?”

Very well. Okay, everybody was very busy, you know, watching the cavernal hearings. The federal government, the House, the Senate, and the White House all together, October

2018, published in Administrative Policy, called FastB 56, that basically said, "In violation

that they could set up a secret group of people by a secret process and pull things out of the government's financial statements and keep them secret, not just for the 24 covered agencies, but for 150+ related governmental entities, and when you take in the national security and classification laws, that means also that the big banks and contractors working for the federal government can do the same."

Right, that's now way to JP Morgan, too. Right.

And what that means is, basically, the entire large cap stock and bond market in the United

States is secret. The disclosures meaningless. It doesn't mean anything, and if you go to Salary, we have a missing money section. And we have extensive, not only descriptions of FastB 56, but what it means to investors. On what grounds could the federal government declare private businesses, the whole of

itself, all kind of off-limits to disclosure? They have no legal basis, because this is in violation of the Constitution, the financial management laws and the financial management regulations.

We have a section at missing money with seven briefing papers, it took me two years working

with our attorneys to do it, that describe all the financial management laws of the United States, so that you can see, and luckily, one of the interesting things that happened when FastB 56 passes Matt Taibi picked up on it and wrote an article about it. And it's funny, Mel, and he said, "Okay, I got the briefing papers, thank God." Because it's very, you know, if you're someone like Matt Taibi, it's very hard to sit down

and learn the financial management laws in the United States.

“That's why we did the briefing papers so that any reporter could, you know, get into this”

and master it in a reasonable period of time. Is this a regulation? Was this voted on? This is administrative policy, so in administrative law, there's the Constitution, there's the financial management laws, there's a regulation, and then there's the administrative

policy. So this is the total inversion, this is an administrative policy saying we can break the Constitution, the financial management laws, the regulations, by administrative policy, but the house, the Senate, and the White House all agreed. So it was a joint, and they tried to sneak it through, and I was very lucky because there

was a guy at the time who worked for the American Federation of Scientists who literally read the Federal Register, and I had signed up his newsletter because I didn't want to, but I trusted him to do it, and he would keep an eye on the black budget issues of a guy named Steve after a good, very good, and he, in his newsletter, he read it and he understood what it meant, because it's so boring, nobody would understand it.

That's exactly right. Right.

“And I just, I'm starting to keep it in an opportunity, but I don't want anything to fall through the cracks, the black budget issues, what black budget, what does the black budget, and what was he looking at, and why should we care?”

So, so we have an over to economy, we have a covert economy. The covert economy is driven by a series of pools of money and cash flows.

The first one, Joseph Farrell calls it the hidden system of finance.

The first one started with all the seizures during the wars, so during World War II, a great amount of assets were seized, and that created a pool of money that was available for covert operations. So, there's a wonderful story in Christopher Simpson's first book about how the money they had seized had been moved into the exchange stabilization fund, which is the mother of all slush funds. That's managed by the secretary of charge, managed by the New York Fed for the Secretary of Treasury, so the money had been moved in, and the Delos brothers are sitting at Sullivan and Cromwell, and they use that money to rig the 48 elections in Europe, but the request of the Vatican.

Anyway, so, so this is the, you know, so we have these, the seizure pool. And then what happened? We passed the National Security Act in 47, and then in 49, we passed the CIA Act, which was very fractious, it literally took assassinating forestal to get that done. And who's thrown out of a window? Yeah, yeah, so that's a festinable hospital, he'd been the secretary of war. And he was very opposed to the creation of the black budget and the creation of Israel, and so.

“Who killed him? And why don't people understand that the the defense secretary of war was murdered?”

So I don't think one and a hundred people know that. So we, you know, he was a Dylan Reed partner, so I knew that, because I used to stare at his painting in the partner's boardroom, or dining room, and they would, you know, they would always train you by telling you if you're not careful on Washington.

I don't know, I have to, they're on in my office, I read him.

You want to read David Martin, we have a great interview with Dave Martin, and let me finish this. Both were written in the 60s, but really quickly did, I mean, Dave's murder. His murder was part of a deal to get the 49 act past is my theory, okay. And, and that, and to create the creation of Israel, so it was both the black budget and Israel that were, and they needed to get him out of the way. So, we have a big interview on it, Salary, and I've looked very into it for a deeply, it was very interesting for us all.

Anyway, so the, but the 49 act was the CIA act, so you have the National Security Act 47, the CIA act. What the CIA act authorized was the ability to appropriate money to different agencies and then clawed back secretly to a black budget. So now we have the hidden system of finance with the pulls of seize money, and we add to that a layer of money that can be appropriated and clawed and used secretly only subject to very limited oversight by a committee and Congress. So, so the appropriations committees wouldn't see that money, only this one committee that oversaw the black budget, okay.

And, and if you look at those two pulls, the next step happened in 81, when Bush comes in. Bush comes in as Vice President under Reagan, and his deal with the Reagan folks during the campaign was Hill, because he'd run the CIA, Hill run intelligence and enforcement, and the Bushes were very, very good at the nuts and bolts of sort of the mechanics of government and the legal system and money.

“He got an executive order done that said, essentially, you can use this secret money, the black budget money,”

and you can use it to hire corporate contractors who can now do highly classified projects. Now, let me explain what this means as a financial matter.

So, we were talking about stock market going up. You can now take the most secret powerful technology in the world and pay corporations to learn and end up owning that technology.

Secretly in a way that drives their stock to the moon. So, now you've connected the U.S. Treasury market directly like a pipe into companies and drive their stock up almost to an infinite map. It's quite as a financial mechanism. It's one of the most powerful things that ever happened in our history. What percent, so we have the federal budget, which we can look up online. But after FFB 56, it's totally meaningless.

“And okay, so it's meaningless because we don't know where the money is actually going. Is that why?”

No, because the most important piece is the money, we don't know what's been taken out. We don't know what's been made secret.

So, so you can see what's there. And you can see, for example, I can see by looking at the HHS budget, how much we're spending to poison America. So, you know, I can see a lot. A lot. Yeah, no, it's huge. And, you know, we're bankruptcy country, boys in America. But, you know, I don't know what's not there. In other words, a secret group of people by a secret process have taken out whatever they want. And I don't know what they've taken out. I don't know. Doesn't mean anything to me. I mean, would it be possible to audit the federal budget?

You would have to audit the bank statements. You would have to audit. People say we want to audit the Fed. No, you want to audit the federal accounts at the New York Fed.

“And you want to audit the exchange stabilization fund at the New York Fed. That's what you want to audit.”

And what you want to find out is where did the 21 trillion go or come in? You know, all the, the federal government has refused to balance its accounts since the mid-90s. And we know that there are inexplicable undoculmentable adjustments of enormous amounts. And the only way you can figure out what happened is to go into those bank accounts and figure out what came in and what went out and and to actually map out the actual cash. And, and you have to do it not just in the, you know, so the New York Fed is depository for the OS government, so you have to do it in those accounts, but you also have to look at the borrowing accounts and the slush fund accounts, which is the exchange stabilization.

Is anyone attempting to do any of that? So, so, you know, Rand Paul and his father and Congressman Massey have talked about auditing the accounts and it's funny because Massey and I were at a great conference once and he was talking about shutting down the Fed and I kept saying no, no, you don't shut it down until you get to 21 trillion back otherwise they get to keep the 21 trillion.

Can I ask just quick about Massey? He's obviously gotten to a very personal altercation with the president on going. There's the question of APAC he was one of the few people who didn't take a pack money, but the all at effort to destroy him. I just feel like there's something more than just getting in a tip with Trump for not taking a pack money.

“Here's what's at the heart of Massey's fight. Are we going to be run by the rule of law? Are we going to be run by a secret governance system essentially consolidating things into what I would call the mega rich who are above the law?”

Are we, you know, this is fundamentally about is they're going to be the rule of law or not. And you know, the thing I love about Massey, he's an engineer and if you talk with him or listen to him about a wide range of subjects, you know, starting with food and agriculture, he is ruthlessly focused on what is productive on what makes economic sense. And what he knows is that the centralization of control is destroying productivity. It's destroying wealth. And he knows that, you know, whether it's family wealth or community wealth, you cannot, you cannot have a civilization.

If, if you have a society that is this enormously destructive of individual sovereignty and individual and family wealth. And so he's literally, if you look at all these different areas, he's just constantly moving out, making, you know, trying to do what makes sense. And his understanding, because he's been our entrepreneur and a small businessman and a farmer and a rancher, he understands the economics bottom up.

One of my favorite Thomas Massey stories I heard on your show, which was an amazing interview. I always make young people watch at least the second half of your interview with Massey.

Yeah, when he's talking about how he figures, he gets, he, he busts the, he's the county mayor, essentially. And he busts the prisoners out of the jail. They help him install a new hot water heater because they can't afford to buy, you know, they have to buy a use when they can't afford to buy exactly. Okay, so that's, you know, that's exactly the story. That's a building well story. Right. Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's happened is so sad. I, it's hard to believe. It's one of the finest people I've ever met in Washington. And I was just gone in this direction. That's not helping anybody.

You think? Well, you know, I, so tend to have a pretty shallow analysis. So when I say it's helping no one, I, I'm not confident. But he's helping no one are a number one problem is the secret governance system. I grew that. And he's going right at the heart of the issue, not because he, he wanted to. But because he's trying to do all these fundamentally productive things and five or ten different. None of us wanted any of these fights, actually.

Right. I think it's first he didn't really want these fights either.

“Right. Well, here's the thing. So if I was, you know, if suddenly tomorrow, you know, I got, I was in charge, you know, I was the dictator in charge.”

First thing I do is I'd outlaw dual citizenship, you know, in an important governmental position. Obviously. Right. And, and, you know, and that goes to the heart of the secret governance system and backdoor control. How does dual citizenship go to the heart of secret governance? Because the secret governance system controls through allowing people to operate above the law or have different incentives that put the outside of the system. And I think the dual citizenship is part of that of that process.

At the most obvious level, you can be indicted for a crime in the United States and flee to the rather countries passport you hold. Right. So look at the sex offenders who literally have, have done terrible things with children in this country who've flee to Israel and are protected. Thousands and dozens and dozens and dozens of them, it's not just a few. We had a high profile example this recently, but it's been going on a really long time.

“That's the, that's the most shocking kind of weight weight. How do you get to, you know, try to molest a child and then flee to our closest ally and stay safe?”

But you're saying that this scene principle applies to financial crimes and governance.

So I suspect one of the things I've never known is what is the full benefits of dual citizenship.

But I suspect there are financial benefits as well. Tell me what that means.

Thought subject to taxes. It could mean many things. It could just mean, you know, financial rewards that are, that are completely, you know, on the face of it legal.

“But I give you an example. We've just seen two arrests.”

And the, and the UK coming out of the Epstein files, not for anything to do with sex, but the fact that they had, that they had compromised state secrets. So, but presumably they did that in exchange for, you know, various benefits of being part of the network. Then what is the network? In that case, I would, well, I would call it the Epstein network, but I'd really call it the raw shield network.

So, big picture that the takeaway from my perspective from the Epstein, a cursory reading of 2 million pages, is that there's a government or a government structure above governments.

So, I would say that there are investment networks. And if you look at what Epstein, if you come to Salary, we have a commentary up called, was Jeffrey Epstein, the father of programmable money.

“Which I believe, you know, the answer is yes or certainly one of them.”

And if you read, we're pointing to a substack series written by a guy who writes anonymously under the name ESC as an escape ESC. And it's a marvelous thing, very well documented back to the, to the Epstein files that we've now received. Describing how Epstein, who I believe was laundering money, was allocating that money to all these different projects that helped develop crypto and programmable money.

And, but what he describes in the process of one of those substacks is traditionally historically, for the last 150 years, how the raw shield networks.

And I would include Rockefeller and raw shield is a sort of central banking network together, how they operate both the family and then people who are sort of. As calls in the switchboard, the agents who sort of coordinate between the different houses and. And the network and in one sense, it's a very informal network, but it, it, because it has the blessing of the central bankers, it receives a lot of protection from the intelligence agencies. And, you know, it's a networking function, and he does a very good job of describing how it operates as a functional matter.

And that's it, everything he writes is exactly what I saw in Washington, Wall Street. You have a layer of equity pulls in and around the central banks that are engaged in trying to build forward in a variety of ways in position money and manage risk. And they are literally increasingly above the law. And they don't seem directly tied to any particular country, they're sort of above countries.

Yeah, they're, you know, they, they can operate within a country sphere, you know, but Epstein was basically global.

And if you look at the programmable money and what he was doing to build programmable money, that required. Operation and both Europe thing now in its states and around the world. Can I ask you a question of the occurs? So if you try this economy's down bigger than nine states is clearly China is going to be. At some point likely the dominant world power. I don't necessarily believe it.

I don't. Okay. Well, the nature of the Chinese government and civilizations seem to make it kind of impervious to this sort of stuff like China's an ethno state. Right. A Han Chinese ethno state. Right. So I don't think they're going to be doing a lot of dual citizenship type stuff in China. No. And I don't believe the Chinese government is going to allow it's authority to be challenged by international pools of capital, at least in the east. Right.

“It's going to control the east. Right. I think.”

Right. So China is like a roadblock to these forces. So the question is, you know, China was developed by Europe and US capital. Right. And so the question is, you know, what obligations to China have to European and US capital? And I don't know the answer. China's strength is if you look at what they're doing with technology, their innovation and speed is astonishing and very, very impressive.

And it's racing by the United States right now. If you look at their demographic issues and their, they have very serious demographic issues and they have a very serious real estate crisis.

And they have an aging population. They've got some real issues. So they have a lot to manage and a lot of how they do depends on how successful their Silk Road innovation, you know, sort of investments work out for them.

So, but I'm not convinced that they necessarily have to end up as the dominant world power.

If you, you know, they've worked very hard for the last 10 to 15 years to make their currency acceptable as one of the basket of sort of currencies.

“And yet, if you look at how much the market share, it's, it's limited. And I think one reason is the distrust of the Chinese is extraordinary because they are deeply, deeply committed to the superiority of the market.”

The superiority of the Han people. And so if you look at different experiences people have had with the Chinese, I think they have a real challenge to build trust. Now, the US was able to build that kind of trust now we're blowing at the so, you know, the question is how fast can they build it for us as out faster, we're going to blow it. I want you back to programmable digital currency really quick. How far we from like universal adoption in the West and when, when and if that comes what will it mean for like the average person.

Okay, so let's go back to the Clarity Act. So, stable coins are the, you know, trading the treasury bills. Yeah. And the, I think treasury's hope is that they can attract, you know, several billion anywhere from 4 to 10 billion trillion dollars into the treasury market with this mechanism by offering it globally. And, and if it's very successful at a retail level, it's going to pull a lot of money out of local banking systems all over the world. Let's see the advantage to using a stable coin. You know, I can't stable coin proponents will say that it lowers transaction fees, which will probably be to internationally.

But frankly, I can't think of one reason why I would ever, I have no intention of using any of them. So the last thing I want. Well, you're against it like philosophically and for, you know, for the reasons you've articulated, but it's like Amazon Amazon's obviously bad, but everyone uses it because they're clear benefits. It's like, it's cheap, it's fast. Right. Are there clear benefits to the consumer in this in stable coin?

“So what really come down is if you want to use a system on your mobile payment phone, you know, which will be better Venmo or the stable coin.”

And it depends a lot of that depends on what comes out in the negotiation next, and I'll get to that in a second.

If the FinTech firms can offer rewards and interest interest, then then they can make it very attractive to use a stable coin. And, but it's not clear. It's not clear how that's going to sort out. It's like the US government needs the stable coin in order to keep treasuries selling. You know, if you look at how much they say they're hoping to get, it's not that.

“It's not going to make the big difference.”

Okay. Now, let's talk about asset tokens because that's where the big float is going to come. So the clarity act is what is is creating the, as as the genius act created the framework for stable coins. The clarity act and, and it's sent a version is creating the framework for digital assets and digital tokens. Now Larry Finken BlackRock have said they're planning on trading all stocks and bonds using tokens or digital assets.

So they have not been clear operationally exactly how this is going to work. But what it means is this is going to be, you know, potentially 100, 200, 300 trillion dollar market if they do it. And what that means is they want to be able to trade all financial assets worldwide on a distributive ledger that can be turned into programmable money.

Now, if you talk to the people who are issuing stable coins now or working on the Clarity Act, they say, oh, we would never do that, that's CBDC.

But in fact, if you look at the stable coin bill, the genius act, it is set up and we have a big article about this on Salary, it is set up. So that all stable coin issuers have to plug into the Treasury's pipe, where the Treasury applies, it's no your customer money laundering and sanctions. And if you look at that pipe, that pipe can be integrated with the full social credit system.

And so if we are working with states, we have Salary has model legislation on stopping programmable money from being misused.

“And what we are saying to the states is, look, before the horse leaves the barn, you have to put the bridal in the saddle and the horse.”

And so states can outlaw this and we're trying to get the states to make sure, because Treasury saying, oh, we would never do that, or the stable companies are saying, oh, we would never do that.

And we're saying, if you would never do that, you don't mind if we pass a law that says you can't do that, right? Do they mind? They don't seem to be enthusiastic about it. And one of the interesting things is the Clarity Act has a provision that outlaw central bank digital currency. It's been thrown out of the Senate version. Apparently they want to reserve the right of the central bank to do that. And apparently Congressman have said that both in the NDA and another piece of legislation.

The speaker speaker Johnson has stopped their amendments to stop central bank digital currency. They said he promised them that he would outlaw it. You know, the president had an executive order promised, they were, believe they were promised that it would be turned into law. Johnson has blocked it both times. So I'm deeply suspicious because if you look at what you can do with stable coins and digital tokens and digital assets,

you can implement all programmable money. But if you leave the authority open to do CBDC, at some point the central banks come along once the system is gotten going. And so my attitude is look, if you guys say you're not going to do this, we can outlaw it now again. Put the bridal and the, you know, the saddle on the horse before you leave the barn and the barn. You know, if you land up with 250 trillion outstanding and you haven't put the bridal and saddle on, you got a problem.

“What would be the effect if we wind up with digital programmable currency?”

So if we wind up with a 100% digital system, no cash, no paper money. We're moving there fast. We're moving there. Although we're trying to look down. So remember, if, you know, if millions of Americans start using cash in size, it can absolutely revolutionize what happens.

So I recommend it. But if we move there, then if I want you to not be able to leave your home, your money won't work if you leave your home. If I want you to only be able to eat certain foods and if I want you to be able to eat foods made with insects and not be able to buy real meat, your money won't work to buy real meat. If I want you to take a vaccine a month, and I mandate vaccines for you and your family, if you don't, I'll turn off your money.

So I have complete control of your food, your healthcare, your spatial travel, everything. So you were no longer in a democracy or a democratic republic, you were in a slavery system. If I want your kids to leave their home and go to a boring school where I control their education, if you don't agree, I turn off your money.

“Can I assess the dumbest question? Why would anybody in authority want that level of control? Why?”

What's the impulse there? Why would you want to do that to people?

With that kind of control, I can bring out phenomenally powerful technology without worrying about it being weaponized.

So I can bring out breakthrough energy technology and not worry that I can't control how it gets used. I can manage a large population in a world where technology is changing without losing control. So I can a small group of people can control too many. And also, if I believe that with life science, I can live forever or for much longer lifetimes. I can either depopulate or control people who are angry that I'm living to be 145 and they're not.

And I can basically keep them in shock even though, so the mega rich can live a very different, luxurious life and control or shrink the rest of the population without fear because they have complete control.

So bottom line, in a time of radical technological change which we're living through right now, the obvious, the first result is like societal chaos and revolutions and wars.

The people pushing this technological change or watching it from positions of authority know this and so the control grid would allow the transition to whatever the technological future is without the downside of like a Bolshevik revolution.

So, you know, in my experience, the people who run the financial system are first and foremost risk managers.

They don't think in terms of making money, they print money out of thin air. But, but they're very deeply careful about risk and they're very afraid of the guillotine, they're very afraid of the crowd. They should be. And, but it's hard, it's hard to manage, you know, people. And if you look at coming into the development of digital technology and globalization, they had two choices.

They could use this technology to build something that allowed explosive new decentralized wealth to be created.

At which point, how did they make sure they stay in control? Especially because you have so much going on that secret.

“So, so how do you stay in control and and can you create a bottom-up structure that will behave responsibly?”

And the hard part of behaving responsibly is you as a manager of society have to turn the aircraft carrier before you hit the iceberg. And then it's too late. So, you decide, okay, we need a meritocracy, we can't trust the people. Now, I disagree with that, but so that was the model I was working on when I was making all the software. So, so I was saying we can have a bottom-up structure that does the risk management, but builds the explosive wealth and it can work. But, but then you don't have an Uber class.

“No, you don't. So, so, but I think they decided, okay, the only way we find managing the general population very frustrating and it's back to the red button story.”

We find the very hypocritical and irresponsible and frustrating, we are very frustrated, we are just going to go to complete control. And they had to choose one or the other, and so they chose complete control. The problem is, once you get into complete control, you get an Uber class of people who literally think of themselves as a different species. Yeah, and they may be actually, sorry excuse me, I have my suspicions partly confirmed, but anyway, but you're absolutely right, the attitudes change. When you go from being in a gallotarian society or at least society that sees a gallotarianism as the goal of a Christian society to something else, then the attitudes of the people in charge become so bad, I see it.

But here's what's interesting, because I have had a very unique life, and so I've had the privilege of living at the top in the middle and the bottom.

And what's amazing when you go back and forth between these different groups, the people at the top have no clue why the people at the bottom are behaving the way they're being. Which is the ignorance between the different groups is unbelievable. It's funny, I've spent my whole life in that group, but with, you know, so germs into other groups. And the people at the top, especially now more than ever, believe that all criticism of them is hate. It's unreasonable, it's fundamentally unreasonable, they hate us because they always hate us because they're hateful people, and that hate is based basically an envy, because we're so great, we're so successful, we're so smart, that, you know, successful people are always hated because of their success.

So, you know what's funny about that? It's like those divorces, you see we're like, one person is totally convinced, it's 100% the other person's fault, and you like know it's a marriage, it's both your fault. Well, but here's what's funny, because you know, I live in the United States, I live in Hickory Valley, Tennessee, and I will tell you, I've said many times, if I have to go down the river, I want to go with people from Hickory Valley, Tennessee, instead of, there's a whole world of people who've got 180 IQ and Silicon Valley, and they are stupid as a tack.

Because they slowed on it on rigged black budget and federal government money.

“They have no insight into fundamental economics, that's why I love Massey, because Massey understands bottom-up economics.”

And we have such a huge, you know, we have cycled brilliant people through universities and put them into places where they are so divorced from fundamental economics or the math of time in money. Because they are floating on a sea of black budget and government money. I completely agree. And it does have a corrosive effect on that class, and then it reaches its kind of ugliest conclusion with the Epstein who, like, in addition to everything else, it's like kind of dumb.

These are the people who are telling us their geniuses, and we're mad at them because they're so smart, I don't think so.

“Well, but I think they think, you know, here's the thing, they think that many people are stupid because they let them get away with it.”

You know, they, there hasn't been the pushback. And so they, the more we allow it to go on, the less they respect. Now, I'll tell you something, there was-- Wait, is that such a deep point where you just said, there was a magical moment when Pam Bondi was testifying, the attorney general was testifying on Epstein. And she said, we should be talking about the Dow being over 50,000.

Let me correct you, she said, over 50,000 dollars. Yeah. So, what does that mean the Dow at 50,000 dollars? What she meant was, so I don't know if you-- I don't know if the Dow is, right? I mean, like, it's not 50,000 dollars, is it?

Right. Right. But I'd forgotten that she said dollars, but-- Yeah.

But here's what was magical about that.

“So, do you remember the red button story I told you about?”

Yes, yes. So, she was basically saying, as long as we keep your 401(k)s up, we can do all this stuff, and it's okay with you, because historically, that is the truth. God bless her. The problem is, no, I feel-- I feel sad for Pam Bondi. I don't think she's thriving, I don't think she's happy.

No. I'm not guessing. But, you know, live by the Dow, die by the Dow. I mean, so if that's the measure, if all things are okay in a bull market, then, like, what is a bear market? What does that suggest? If that's, do you don't you mean? Right. But here's the message of what she brought up.

If people will allow you to poison and abuse and rape their children in exchange for keeping their 401(k)s up, you have no reason to respect them. I agree. And I don't respect them. So, I'll say that I feel the same way. Right.

So, in that sense, we all got ourselves into this mess together. I totally agree with that. I completely agree. I think that about China. I think that about Epstein. There's a lot of, you know, hate toward this or that group. And it's like, no, no, it's like a marriage. We're all implicated on this. Right. And here's the most frightening thing that I find because, you know, it's one thing to be in your town and make a mess.

It's another thing to make a mess and not notice that the enemy's at the gate. That's right. So, if you look at how we've allowed ourselves to fall behind in technology and in national security and in all the areas that matter to be strong on the outside, you know, we put ourselves, it's one thing to have a corrupt leadership. It's another thing to have a corrupt incompetent leadership.

And what I would say is, our leadership has not done, you know, if you disrespect the whole employee and you say, okay, I want to be the elite and have total control.

“Well, then you need to be competent in your job, right? And they're not.”

And the question is, why? And I vehemently agree with you, I gave this speech at dinner the other night to a bunch of people, you know, every society in history is run by, you know, a tiny elite, often they're foreigners, by the way, that's true now and millions of many different countries. Right.

I mean, I'll sell them as run by a Palestinian, Peru was run by a Japanese guy, I mean, this is, you know, okay, that's not uncommon and there's always a Brahmin class always.

I'm not mad about any of that actually. What makes the West so different, the English-speaking countries, is that their populations are all dying. So it does seem like it's more than incompetence, it seems like hate to me, at least as measured by its results. Right. Right. So there is definitely a targeting and a destruction of that. That's the way it seems to me. It's like, okay, so you're in charge, we make a bunch of money, you get the most of it because you're in charge.

That's corrupt, yes, but it's also just the rule. I can live with that. But you're trying to kill me even as you're extracting the fruit of my toil, then it's like, no, no, this is an undeclared war against me. That's no, I perceive. That war is long, but if you look at who's implementing that war, they don't have a culture and ethic or a mandarin class that can go the distance.

I agree with that. So, I mean, can you flush it out a little bit? Yes. Our ruling class is in design to survive and thrive, so what you're saying?

But, you know, one thing I will say about China, if there's an argument for China's success,

“it is because it has a mandarin class and it has a tradition, you know, of hundreds of years of that mandarin class, and that's what you need.”

The reason I left Washington in 1998, and I said, "I'm out, these guys are going to fail." Is whether it's the fruit destroying the, you know, archwifelun of the mandarin class or the mandarin class itself, they did not have a culture and ethic of vision that could go the distance. They weren't good to build an advanced civilization. That didn't have what it took. What an interesting observation.

What does a successful ruling class have? What is the culture that we don't have, the China does? It has a culture, it has a commitment to the long term, so it has a long term arc, and it has the discipline to achieve that by keeping each individual sovereign with integrity, but discipline to the vision and the order. So, you know, it doesn't let the power go to its head.

I'll never forget when I first went to Washington,

“I had been trained my whole life to deal with massive amounts of financial power without letting it go to my head.”

And you got to Washington and you could look around the room and you could see the people who also had that training. They knew this was not their money or their credit. It belonged to the country. And they were there as a fiduciary for a temporary period of time to manage it. And they took the time to understand the laws and the rules and to collaborate with other people to do so. You got other people who they didn't have that background or training.

It's my money, it's my portfolio, it goes to their head and they literally, you know, they get drunk on power and they can't handle it. It's like they can, it's like looking at electrical system that can't handle that voltage. And they, you know, they melt down. He burns the house down. He burns the house down.

And what you had, you've gone through a process in Washington where I saw all the people who had been trained, the way I had been trained, who got pushed out because they wouldn't break the law. They wouldn't do stupid things and they got pushed out and you just got, yes, many, yes, many, yes, men. And now, now you've got something that has no, it doesn't have a culture that can handle the voltage. So, I feel like you see this even now.

I noticed this during the trans thing, you know, I felt like our leaders were pushing the transgender lunacy on everybody. But then I noticed that their own children, probably in higher proportion, were also falling prey to it. Same with drugs. They push drugs in the population, but they're kids OD too. So it's like, they kind of believe these lies.

It's not just an effort to genocide the population, which it is as well. You're not talking about the top guys, you're talking about the sort of the middle, the implement, right. So yeah, they're in the trans too. And everybody's thinking they're a genius, you know, because they're. Where does this go over the next 10 years?

You know, something, we are, we are in a very interesting position. I said it to this Larry team at the beginning of the year. Our, our motto for this year is rock and roll. Because the disruption is not only so chaotic and unpredictable, you know, it's impossible to predict it. Because you're talking, when, when you have, if you go back and you look at when information technology.

Innovates dramatically, like, you know, the telephone or the telegraph. What happens is you not only dramatically improve the, or speed up the innovation in each area. But the connections and integration between areas and ways that, you know, it's beyond our, you couldn't anticipate. You can anticipate, you can predict it. And, and so if you look at this speed of change.

“But I think if you look at every group I watch, you know, geopolitically or financially.”

Events are going to aren't a saw and they're going to surprise a saw. And so we're going into an out of control situation.

Now, the, the people who run, in my experience, the people who run the financial system always have a plan BCD and have thought things ahead.

How they're going to manage this, I don't know. So how does the average person respond to it? With faith. With faith. Yeah.

Faith in.

So I believe so I told you I was going to give you some homework.

So here's my welcome. Here's my favorite new book.

“It's called, and we're just about to publish an amazing, uh, interview with, uh, with the author.”

It's called a new science of heaven by Robert Temple. Okay. And it's about plasma. Our annual wrap up is, and you, we'll send you a copy is on plasma. I'm writing it down.

Okay. Now, 99% of the universe is made up of plasma. And if you go back. I confess I've no idea what plasma is. Don't ask me to explain it.

That's about 90% of the universe. 99% of the universe. 99% of the universe.

And if you go back and listen to people like David Baum.

The great physicists, they would sort of intimate this. But Temple, Dr. Robert Temple, has now written a book that really goes through all the science of it. And what Temple says is the plasma is alive and intelligent. Okay. Which brings all new meaning to the notion of he lives.

What he's saying is, the universe is alive and intelligent. Now, I, throughout my history, and it's clear. I feel that. Don't you? It is true.

I'm sure it's true. Yeah. The universe is alive, the universe is intelligent. You know, whether it's the plants, the animals, the people. Yes.

We share intelligence, and it's not through our brain. It's through our whole body, through our energy, everything. So, so anyway, but the new science of heaven is really about plasma and how it's alive and intelligent. Now, what I'm going to tell you, I don't care how much programmable money you have. How many biometrics you have?

How many digital IDs you have? How many drones?

No, DOD is going to buy a million drones per year.

How many drones you have flying overhead? I don't care. There's no way you can control the entire universe. Do you know what I mean? And if you understand what, what Temple and Baum in these guys are saying about how the universe works?

It's how to control. Now, what you can do is you can interact with it, with love and intention and integrity. You know, but it's how to control. And I absolutely believe that.

“And that's why I think this whole digital control model is going to fail.”

I just want to make sure. You're describing the entire battle. You're describing like the limits of human power. And forces. And technology.

And technology. It just, if you understand life, the whole thing is nuts. Now, if you look at the leadership, I can absolutely because they're hypermaterialists. I can absolutely believe that they would think they can control it. And I can understand as risk managers why you might want to.

What's a hypermaterialist? Hypermaterialists is somebody. So if you and I were going to make a taxonomy of all knowledge in our world, there is knowledge that relates to things that we can see. So this table or this wall or this painting.

You know, we can see it. It's concrete. Okay. So there's a material world. But then there's a whole world that's invisible either because it's spiritual or it may be material.

But it's like the Wi-Fi in the room. We can see it. So there's a whole part of our reality. Whether it's what I call the morphogenic field. So shared intelligence or your energetic body or my energetic body or you know,

or the Wi-Fi in the room, whether it's material or spiritual. There's a whole world that's invisible. And what you see in sort of in the American culture, in my lifetime, is people become more and more focused on what they can see that's material. The only invisible thing they relate to is money.

You know, money isn't invisible. Finance isn't invisible. So money is their God. Only a hypermaterialist could allow money to become their God because if you understand it. But if it's the only invisible thing you believe in.

Right. It's your God. But they don't know. They literally don't know how intelligence works and how power works in the universe. They are completely ignorant of the real power lines because they can't see the invisible.

It's phenomenal. It's like walking around in a, so imagine an orchestra trying to play music. And everybody's in the dark and nobody can see the score.

“That's what it, and that's why it sounds like that.”

That's why it's so discordant. Yeah, yeah. It's just completely, and stop it with the cattle drum. Right. It's time for the strings.

Right. So we have, you know, so we're very excited because we're doing this program called The Young Builders. It's one of the reasons I'm in Florida. And, and one of our challenges is can we help this group of young people to get a good enough map of both the visible and the invisible.

And not falling prey to being a hypermaterialist.

What are the power lines you just described? So our freedom comes to us by divine authority. And if, if you look at what, you know, there's one of my favorite scriptures in the Bible is the prayers of the righteous man of Allah, much.

“And one of the things I've learned in my life is that, you know, so I was an investment advisor.”

And all my clients would show up and say, "We want you to help us use our money to keep them safe." And what I would tell you is in this kind of environment with this kind of change, you can only be safe if you have spiritual protection. If you have spiritual intelligence, if you have spiritual authority. And if you can relate with other people in a way that you can build relationships of trust and that kind of integrity and trust is invisible. You know, but if you look at what can in door during periods like this, that's what indoors, that's what you can.

You know, Corinthians says faith, hope and charity, those are the things that in door that you can't lose. And they're real. It just takes many years of living and living around people who do it to see that it's real.

“So I know you know what I mean, but I know exactly what you mean, and I agree so vehemently, I wish I was a certificate as you were.”

But I literally had experiences where I was going to be dead in five seconds. And a miracle happened, and it saved me.

And it was, you know, so I used to always say I had one amazing deposition where I had a major spiritual protection and experience.

It was one of the most amazing experiences my life had happened on several occasions. And and I said to, you know, I call the people who, you know, so I'm assuming it's angels or guardians or whatever you want to call it. And I said to I call them the guys with the blue light and I said, don't worry about protecting yourself against the bad guys worry about getting in good with the guys with the blue light. So yes, yeah, if you, if you just, you know, there's not enough time to do all that risk management advance the bad guys.

If you just focus your energy on getting in good with the good guys, you will get protected. I think this is like the gospel. Exactly. Yeah. So it's, I took, I once, you know, when the litigation began, I took a full one year Bible course, which was one of the most amazing courses I ever took in my life.

Because the teachers were fantastic. And it was riveting it was on Monday night after work.

And I, when I first got to there were like 200 people and I thought, this is never going to last nobody in Washington's going to show up on Monday night again and again during the winter.

Every week, it got bigger the classroom because it was the teaching was so amazing, but it really is all on the Bible. It's, it's amazing. My favorite parable. I think is the, the guy was a good, a good year with his crops. So he builds new store houses to store him and then he finishes him, fills him full of crops and says, I'm going to take you're off and just enjoy my bounty and then he drops dead. So you made reference a minute to go to art and that you're just ran a piece on art appreciating art loving art.

Given your background in monetary policy finance, why are you commissioning pieces about art? What does art have to do with anything? Okay, so I'm going to go way out and come back in.

“If you want to have a successful society and a successful financial system, one of the most important questions in a financial system is who or what enforces, you know, who makes the rules and forces.”

The only way to have a set a really successful financial system is to have enforcement done primarily by culture. Yes, okay. So the question. So self-restrain as opposed to restraint. Right. And respect for the rules and respect respect, you know, I am, I give you an example from Bible class. I once had my teacher in Bible class asked me about the salary model and I explained it to her and she said, oh, you're making it much too complicated. It's in Leviticus. It says, we have to take care of ourselves.

We have to take care of the land and we have to take care of each other. And I said, that's it. There you go. So she was right. But that's an example of enforcement by culture, the obligation that I have to take care of myself, but I also have to take care of the land and the people around me.

And I brought you the coming clean book and that is a sort of overview of all the things we think are important.

“If you want to build a culture that will do a really good job of taking care of yourself, but in a way that takes care of others and the land.”

So so but I was thinking, okay, what can we do with the salary report to help people really understand and relate to culture? So I was out in California and I had a dear friend, Nina Heind, who had just left this big high power job as publicity in one of the studios. And I said to her, she was thinking about, what do I do next? And I said, if you could do anything you wanted, what would you do?

And she said, I would travel the world going to museums and writing about it. And I said, you're hired.

So she started a column called Food for the Soul. And she started writing these, we would pay her budget to go travel the world and see the museum. She has a, she's Polish and so she has an apartment in Warsaw and goes back and forth between Europe and California. And she started writing these columns and it turns out Nina is absolutely brilliant. I mean, just off the charts, brilliant. And understands the economic and the history of all the different art she's writing about in the periods. And these columns are absolutely fascinating.

And we started to write it after a couple years, all these sort of major periodical started to do the same thing.

Nina would get very upset. She said, they're copying me and I said, that's a compliment Nina, that's great. Anyway, so it grew and grew. And what happened is the Celeri team would start going to the museums, whether when she was in town. So, you know, when she came to the, she came to Europe when we were celebrating the year of Da Vinci in 2019, I'm a huge Da Vinci fan. And so we, the rice museum in Amsterdam, had all the remnants and then we went to all the things in Italy and then to the Louvre for Da Vinci.

And the Celeri team started coming and then their wives started or husband started coming and, you know, we all started going with her. And so we started doing interviews about art and why it was relevant or why Da Vinci was relevant or why the mirror was relevant or the golden age of the Dutch painters. So we have a, you know, we have a company in the Netherlands. Anyway, a grew and grew and finally we said, let's, we did a wrap up called "Visions of Freedom" which she wrote of all the art that that inspired freedom and talked about freedom and encouraged freedom.

And that was very, very successful. And so we decided now we would roll it up into loving art. And the young builder, she's teaching one of the courses for the young builders because we think art is incredibly important to encourage and culture and helping people, you know, sort of connect to both material and the, and the non-material anyway.

“So what is the bridge, right? I mean, that's it's one, you know, I love music too. So every week we have a music of the week on the Celeri report, I think music is a bridge.”

But I think art is a bridge. She, because of her history and the movie industry, she also is one of the people who votes for the Academy Awards. So she sees everything. And she's very good at tipping us off to what movies we want to show. So if, if art can edify an uplifted culture, it can also degrade and fracture a culture, I would think. So very famous story, I had a dear friend in Washington who ran the Confederate Museum. And he was giving a speech on southern culture at the Smithsonian and right in the middle of some young men stood up and said, why should I care about any of this?

And John Edward said, you know, man, culture is the integration of the divine in everyday life. And I later said to my came back and I said, John Edward, you forgot to warn me, it could also be the integration of the demonic in everyday life.

“And that's, if you're becoming clean, the critical issue is, are you doing everything you can to remove the demonic from your everyday life and integrate the divine in your everyday life?”

And the more people who do that, by doing that, I protect myself and my family, and as I detox the evil from my life, I deny the evil, the energy in the food I'm giving it, which helps everybody else. Well, that's my favorite principle ever. So it just to reduce the twist, try this form, change starts with you. The power we have, I'm not saying that the political mechanism isn't an opportunity to make change because I think an election here it is. The greatest power we have is how we use our time, how we use our attention and how we use our money in our daily lives.

If you will get the tape room out of your life, not only will you get stronger, but you will help everybody else get stronger because you're denying the energy to the tape room. So what kind of daily rituals make that work?

So the first thing you do is you start with faith, because everybody's different, and so if you read, come and clean, and I should say it's up on our website, it's public anybody can get the PDF.

Everybody's different, and so it's very important that you apply the mathematics if you're time and money in a way which is energizing for you, it's got to be practical.

“But the first thing you can start to do, for example, and I'll talk money because that's my love, you can use cash, okay?”

And you can stop, shop, you can stop using the banks, so if you're banking with one of the big banks that created the great financial crisis, that's an opportunity for you to get your money out of those. But you can bank with a bank that didn't cause the good financial, and is helping your local community, you know, be successful. So there are good banks and there are bad banks, you can shift your money into a good bank. You can not shop with the companies that are basically, you know, building the control grid, and you cannot finance them. If you look at most people's 401ks right now, they're very over concentrated in seven to ten stocks that are basically making money by building the control grid.

You know, many, many years ago, I was an investment advisor and I changed my company to investment screen, and we were very quiet about it because I wanted to make sure that we could find plenty of companies that are not engaged in what I would call systemic organized crime or building the control grid. They're hundreds of them. They're hundreds of great companies that are just doing the work of the world and are not engaged in organized crime. You can invest in them. You can invest in local farmers to get your food.

“You know, there are many different things you can do, but you can make sure your time and money is going to support the things that are good for you. One of the most important is health.”

So if you look at what bankrupts families in America, it's poor health, and that comes from poor nutrition.

And from getting involved in the medical system in a way that's unhealthy for you. What I used to find when I was an investment advisor is people would tell me, you know, who were millionaires and had a fortune. They would tell me, I can't afford by a dynamic organic food. I was like, you can't not afford that.

“If you have millions of dollars in your brokerage account and you are eating cheap food, you know, you're making a terrible financial decision. Anyway, so if they're 25 items and coming clean and you can go through all of them.”

But they're all about whether it's your time, your money. One of them, of course, is getting good intelligence.

They're watching Tucker girls and they already know what to do. But I can't tell you how many times I had clients who would watch the major networks and just, you know, they would have a bad map of the world and make terrible mistakes because they weren't getting good intelligence. I know very smart, very successful people who have no idea what's happening. Right. So can I, I've been up to you like a hundred times during this conversation, but there's so many interesting places to pause information and the means by which it's disseminated and we consume it like it's worth a period of real openness right now because the old media have collapsed.

How long can that last? Where you can say whatever you think on the internet and read other people's unfiltered views on the internet. That's such a challenge to power that I'm skeptical it can last for much longer. So if you look at the infrastructure that's being put into place, so DOD says that they're going to buy million drones a year. If you look at the what has been, I don't know if you saw the latest testimony about ice. The whistleblower claiming that he was trained to teach ice agents how to break the law. So if you look at the drones, if you look at the what's happening with the local control grid with the flat cameras, the satellites, everything.

They're looking to put into place the hardware where they can shut down free speech. Now are we going to let it go into place? If you look at the pushback, the pushback is extraordinary. And so it's not clear to me that they'll succeed to do that. I don't know. But I will tell you now if we don't push back hard now and keep pushing back, they will shut down free. They'll shut down. Well, the control grid will shut down the first amendment, the second amendment. RIP the constitution of shreds.

It does seem like that has been the pivotal change in the last 10 years. Nobody watches CNN. Everyone reads X and that makes the difference.

“Well, I think what happened. I think most people. So I call it this way. If I have a computer and I have 50 databases and you bring me a database that says I've got to change my operating system.”

That's too hard because I've got to change 50 databases and everything. I think when you, a friend of mine used to call it getting hit by the smite button. When the system betrays you in a way that it's very harmful to you, whether because you're injured by pharmaceuticals or the medical system or your money is stolen in the financial crisis. When the system does something that really harms you, it forces you to change your operating system. And I think the financial crisis harmed a lot of people, but then the pandemic really harmed a lot of people.

That's right. And I, you know, I will tell you Tucker, I, I, you know, we were warning people from the beginning. Don't take the shot. Don't take the shot. Don't take the shot. And then at the end of 2022. I were big women off fans. You know, who women off is in the Netherlands. Yeah. Okay. So we're, we're, we're my fans. Yeah, we're pro northern Europe in my house. Yes. Yes. First we know. So so at the end of 2022, women off had just published the women off method. And I said to, I sent an email to everybody at Christmas time and I said, if you've been harmed by COVID, let us know and we will send you a free copy the women off method because we think this can really help.

And we ended up giving away 250 copies because we would get these letters. They would write in and they would say what had happened to them as a result of the lockdowns and losing their job or the shot. Tucker, I'm not a sentimental person. I would personate here is reading these stories. It was so horrible. And we just kept buying books and giving them away because, you know, I would get these letters that say, this is the first time anybody's done anything nice to me for three years. And it was so helpful to people and, you know, women off is such a loving presence in people's lives and he makes you laugh and he and the method really helps. So so we just kept getting more books and giving them away because it was so horrible.

And I think the pandemic shifted a lot of people because they realized our leaders not only don't care about us, they are absolutely willing to kill us. Yeah, I think they, you know, it embues them with the feeling of God like strength.

“Right. Like it. Yeah, people love killing. I mean, that's why they always have. That's why they continue to do it. They pretend they don't love it, but they do love it.”

I know people who do it. And they love it. But I have to tell you that, you know, if you look at the joy that comes from that kind of power, if you look at the joy that of creating life.

It's so much more powerful. I couldn't agree more. Right. Last question. You got to plug into that and visible to discover it and use it and know it.

Yeah, God creates it and destroys this really simple, but you know, pick God's team. You said, at the outset of this year, I think a lot of people approached it with reputation feeling like, woo, the foundations are definitely trembling in the West. You approached it with like excitement. You said rock and roll rock and roll.

“So what, what's that? Why, why are you optimistic and ever else is panicked?”

This is the year of the firehorse in Chinese New Year. So we're right in Chinese New Year now. It's the year of the firehorse. And the firehorse is a symbol of great change, but it's great strength. So I just bought a new mug that's the firehorse mug from, you know, one of these British porcelain companies makes beautiful China. But so I live in Friesland in the Netherlands, in the north and the horses of the Friesland horses, they're the beautiful black stands. So every year in the ward, now is up with Michael John and his wife, Musaco, in the ward for the Friesland stallion show.

And these horses are just beautiful. So that's my image for this year because I was with Michael John at the Friesland stallion show.

No, I missed that one. It put it on your bucket list. Most of these horses are the most beautiful horses in the world. And it's an amazing, amazing show. It's every January and Lord, I will take you.

Well, but the Friesians are, you know, these are the horses that knights would ride. They're chargers. They're, you know, they have huge hearts. They're very powerful.

“And, and that's the energy you have to go into this year because remember, if the world is alive and intelligent with, you know, if it's a plasma world, then we have to attract to us the energy we need to build everything's thrown up.”

And now we have to build it. We have to create it. That's why we're calling the young builders builders.

You know, everything's being thrown up to the air and the question is, what will you build?

“So I love it. Catherine Austin fits. Thank you very much.”

God bless you. God bless you.