Joe Kent Reveals All in First Interview Since Resigning as Trump’s Counterterrorism Director

This is from this show and this is Joe Kent, who later went on to become until yesterday, the director of the National Counterterrorism Center, here it is. What do you think the immediate and then longer term

“effects of a war with the run would be on the United States?”

- Immediately would be a very bloody. I have no doubt that we could probably defeat some of their air defense and go in there and have another shock and off campaign. But again, we saw how the shock and off campaign

and Iraq really didn't actually work in the long run. So I have no doubt that we'd have some immediate results that people would cheer about here in the United States.

But Iran, Persia has always been an empire.

It's been around longer than any of the other players in the modern Middle East right now. And they are not going anywhere. If we get deeply involved and deeply entangled with Iran, we are playing right into China's hands,

because China would like nothing more than for us to be committing our military industrial base to a war in Eastern Europe and Ukraine. And then to be committing our conventional military power, our blood and our treasure back in the Middle East.

That will make the Pacific our actual border extremely vulnerable to Chinese aggression.

“Or China will simply just watch just bleed out economically”

as we bleed out on the battlefield on these couple different theaters. It's absolute insanity. It's opening up Pandora's box and again, for what gained to the American people.

So the very first thing you noticed about that clip,

which was shot almost exactly a year before the current president was inaugurated, is that it was right. It was pressure. We called it.

We called the general outline not that it was hard to call, but Joe Kent knows what he's talking about. He spent a lot of his life in that region. And he said, a year before this current presidency began, this is a big, serious country.

It's the oldest civilization in the region. And if we went to war with Iran, there would be a momentary sugar high. Americans would support it because they support their own country. And they certainly support their military

and people would approve of it.

“But very quickly, you could see a process by which we got caught there,”

trapped there, bear trap, hard to extricate yourself from that. And sitting on the sidelines would be our chief global competitor, China, who would be silently notting along with a slowly spreading grin, knowing that they were the main beneficiary

of what they were seeing, of our waste of American lives and treasure, as Joe Kent said. So we haven't reached that stage, thankfully. We're moving toward it. And everyone who's watching carefully knows that.

And if you're honest, you know that. So this is a very serious moment we're in. And we're watching not just to warn Iran, but potentially a total realignment of the world. And the loss in some sense of what the United States has,

globally, this could be the beginning of the end of our influence and a lot of the world. And that's the beginning. So again, that's a big deal. It's starting to dawn on people.

And that leaves Joe Kent as one of the relatively few people connected to this administration who said it in public, is that good or bad? Well, let me seem good. Of course, you want to be around people who have clarity

about what's going to happen next. But in practical terms, it's bad.

In fact, it's always bad.

Whenever you have somebody who stands up and says, don't do this, here's what could happen. And then you do it anyway. And it turns out that person was right. Your first instinct is not to apologize

and correct your behavior. Your first instinct is to crush the person who called it correctly. And that's your instinct because in it's the lowest of all instincts, but it's a human instinct. That's your instinct because his correct production

is an indictment of you. Of course. And it's a way to deflect tax on you and your own culpability by blaming the guy who told you it was going to happen before you did it.

And this is a longstanding fact of human life. And in the last 60 years in this country, it has been the iron law of foreign policy, which is to say, when things go wrong, the only people who get punished are the people

who criticize the adventure in the first place. You can imagine General West Morlin attacking Walter Cronkite of CBS News and everything of Walter Cronkite in my case not much. But fundamentally, it was Walter Cronkite sitting

very much on the sideline saying, hey, this war is not going well. And there was General West Morlin prosecuting the war, but General West Morlin argued till the end of his life. And some way successfully that he lost the war

because Walter Cronkite criticized the war. Is that really true? How many troops did Walter Cronkite command?

Don't think so.

He was a news reader in New York.

“But you can see why West Morlin did that.”

Why a lot of people believed it agreed, agreed with West Morlin. You saw the same thing happen in the days after the tragic and incredibly stupid Afghan withdrawal under Joe Biden. That didn't help the United States. Of course, we had to get out of Afghanistan.

But the way we did it, who would argue that was a good thing. It was a terrible thing and resulted in the deaths of a lot of Americans. So who was punished for that? As far as we can tell, and we've checked, only one person.

And that would be Colonel Stu Scheller of the United States Marine Corps. What was his crime planning the withdrawal from Afghanistan? Oh, no. No, Stu Scheller's crime was saying, out loud, boy,

that didn't work very well. And why do we do this? And for that he went to jail. The people who actually did it, who gave the orders, or who carried them out without asking questions

about them, which was everybody else, they're fine. You don't even know their names. And they certainly haven't been penalized. So there is a long history because this is a standing feature, the way people are, that you criticize those who told the truth

and who were right, who called it ahead of time. Now, in a functioning society, you get a hold of yourself. And you understand that people are like this,

“but if you want to be successful as a society,”

you have to restrain that impulse because it's low. And it's counterproductive. And if you silence people who tell the truth, you end up making the same mistakes again and again. And maybe that's why we're here at this pivotal point

in our war with Iran.

So that's the first thing you notice.

Joe Kent was right, therefore, Joe Kent must be destroyed. And there is, of course, this ongoing effort to do that, to dismiss Joe Kent as a tool of the Islamists, or a leaker, or say he's married to someone who works for Hezbollah, or Ly after Ly after Ly,

but they're all aimed at Joe Kent the man, at his motives, at his character, his personality, and his wife. And that's by design because none of them touch on his reason for resigning as director of the National Counterterrorism Center,

because if he focused on that, you'd have to answer his questions. You'd have to answer, is this true? Is what Joe Kent, who possessed highest level intelligence clearances, who was really barred from knowing no secret in the US government,

is he's one of our top intelligence officials until yesterday? Seems like a pretty informed guy is, what is saying true? That's the last conversation. Anyone, Washington wants to have, so just attack him.

And you're going to see a lot more of that. The people who said this war was a bad idea will be punished, and the more it turns out they were right, which is to say the worst this project goes, the more it becomes obviously kind of productive

to American interests, the more vigorously they will be punished unto an including Jale's, two shall or went to Jale, probably not the only one who will going forward.

“So you should just know that and understand what you're seeing”

in those terms.

The second thing that comes immediately to mind

when you watch Joe Kent from January of 2024, talk about what would happen if we went to war with Ron, is that what he said that day, a year before Donald Trump's inauguration could have been said by Donald Trump.

Maybe with a different style. He was making Donald Trump's case. The case of Donald Trump has made for a very long time. Donald Trump, as everybody knows, became the Republican nominee in 2016, 10 years ago,

in part because he was the only Republican, running for president that year out of a field of nearly 20 people who was willing to say what everyone else knew, but was afraid to say, which is the Iraq war, didn't help us.

It hurt us. It was a dumb idea, and it went on way too long, and it became the quagmire that people like Donald Trump predicted it would be. And the American public so relieved

you hear the truth about something they already knew, made him the Republican nominee, despite maybe some concerns, but they did it because, hey, he was right, and he's the only one brave enough to say so. And Donald Trump made varieties of that case

for the next 10 years. And in many cases, specifically about Ron, because Trump has seen long before most people in Washington before almost anyone in Washington, the big picture of the outline,

which is this is a contest between the United States and the West and China in the East, a rising power that matches or maybe exceeds a economic power, globally, and we have to figure out how to apportion power. And we don't even get sidetracked with engagements like,

I don't know, another endless Middle Eastern war, because in the end, the only winner of that conflict is China. There's China in this specific case, whoever in the end settles this conflict, whether it's the United States or some other power,

whoever comes in at whatever the end of it is, and says, enough, this is hurting the world. Each side is made at its point,

in the Persian Gulf, that's energy. And we're gonna stop this now.

Whoever that person is will become more powerful than ever,

and everyone else will become less powerful. The person who settles disputes is in charge. Not the person who starts them, not the person who wins them, the person who stops them. When dad comes home and stops the fighting

between brother and sister, who's in charge, dad, because he stopped the conflict. All of which is to say, if at the end of this conflict, it's China that comes in, China which has a vested interest in what happens in the region,

since there are a major consumer of Gulf energy, if it's China that comes in, and restores the energy flows out of the Persian Gulf, and restores some version of peace, gets the fighting to stop, then China is in charge

of the Persian Gulf. That's just a fact of nature. And so a lot is at stake, as Joe Kent knew, as Donald Trump knew. And so the question is, how did Donald Trump,

after 10 years of saying one thing,

“do in the pivotal act of his presidency, exactly the opposite?”

That's not just an academic question, it's not the beginning of a conspiracy theory, about some shadowy lobby.

It's the most important question we face,

because this is not the first time, the United States has entered into this kind of war against the wishes of its own population, and in clear contravention of its own interests. Against its interests, this isn't good for us.

No one has made the case that it's good for us. And increasingly as the days pass, it becomes obvious to everyone, why it's not good for us. And if you don't believe that, then check the prices of food and fuel,

and everything you buy, because everything you buy is dependent on the price of energy, and the production of fertilizer, both of which are affected almost immediately by the closure of the straits of our moves.

So we did this again. It's not exactly clear how or why we did this, but we need to find out. And there is great resistance to finding out, and you've noticed that in the last 36 hours,

since Joe Kent resigned as director of the National Coward and Terrorism Center, one of our top intel officials, because the attacks on him have prevented an honest conversation about what he's actually saying, and what he's saying is,

and he says it clearly, and we're gonna ask him about it directly in just a moment, Israel got us into this war. It's lobby in the United States pressure the president, and it's prime minister in Israel told the president,

we're going without you, join us because if you don't, the troops in the region are interested in the region, or citizens in the region will all be at risk, you have no choice. They let the way.

That's Joe Kent's position, and rather than push back against that and say, no, actually he's wrong, they're telling you to shut up. And why are they doing that?

Well, there's only one reason, people ever become hysterical and slanderous, start screaming at you rather than answering you, it's because they're lying.

“And the truth is, this is not the first time”

you've watched people in charge lie. This has been going on a long time, and lies give way to a whole bunch of bad things. More lies, once you tell lie, you bolster it with further lying.

hysteria, the fear of being caught lying, the rage and slander, if the person catches me lying, he wins in the zero sum game of lying, I die, you go in the attack to cover your lies, and bad judgment.

You can't make wise decisions on the basis of lies, 'cause they're not true. They're not based in reality. They didn't actually happen or in this case, it did happen, but you're pretending it didn't.

So a country based on lies, like a family based on lies, like an individual life based on lies, cannot succeed, in fact, it's hellish. As all of us have experienced in our lying,

“and so the only way out of this is to stop lying,”

is to tell the truth now, probably 63 years after we should have started telling the truth,

but it's never too late, to tell the truth now

about everything, because it's never as painful as you think it will be. It's actually an active liberation. In fact, it's the only real act of liberation. Telling the truth sets you free

because the truth itself sets you free. That is always and everywhere a fact. And the longer you delay doing that, the more horrible the consequences of your lies.

with Joe Ken is the beginning of the long overdue truth telling,

“which is the only thing that will save this country.”

And one final note about Joe Ken, who I spent the last 24 hours with, Joe Ken's resume hardly needs explanation, because everyone is aware of this as a man who deployed on 11 combat missions to the global war on terror.

This is sort of the perfect representation of the GWT generation. This is one of those guys we often celebrate, but too rarely hear from, who we sent out to fight the so-called war on terror

that began on 9/11. And it's an entire generation of men, men who look and sound for the most part very much like Joe Ken. So the implication, of course, he doesn't care about security or he's soft on Iran,

Joe Ken spent, well, the majority of his 20s and 30s fighting Iranian proxies. I'm watching his friends get killed by them. So this is someone who's actually earned the right to speak about Iran and the war on terror.

And of course, he was the director of the National Counterterrorism Center. So he thought a lot about terrorism in this country and the blowback from events like this. And we're gonna ask him about that as well. But the other thing to notice about Joe Ken,

and it may be his defining factor, is that he doesn't slander anyone. His resignation, whether it was not an attack on Donald Trump, it wasn't a promise to write a tell-all memoir about what he saw on the insider to aggrandize himself

or to get a job on a TV show or sell something. I asked him, "Didn't it last night? "What do your points? "None." He did this purely because he believes

as he'll explain in a second.

“This is the only way to save the United States”

from certain disaster, tell the truth. Air the secrets, be honest for once in decades about what is actually happening. Things that everybody who lives here suspects are happening. In some cases, we're probably wrong.

We've come to the wrong conclusions. That's okay. Tell us what actually happened. Tell us why you did this. And let's reorient this country where it should be,

which is around its own citizens. Make the decisions that you make based on one criterion is this good for my people or not in the way that a father would lead his family. Or an officer would lead his troops.

It's not complicated. Everybody wants that. That's not a partisan question. That's a human question. And that's the question, Joe Kent is posing.

Why can't we do this? Why can't we say this? It's not an attack on anybody. Joe Kent himself does not attack anybody. But this is a last ditch attempt.

Not simply to save the country from disaster and Iran, but to save the country period. And as you listen to him speak, ask yourself, is this a man who's working for Hezbollah or is an ego maniac or a leaker or is this a man

who says very little when he has nothing to say, who speaks straight forwardly and with honesty. So evident honesty is this a man of dignity and decency. Is this a man that America once had a lot of? Is this a man who has once in effect the American archetype

that guy you looked up to? The guy you wanted your son to be? Whether you agree or not, maybe you're reaching completely different conclusions. But as you listen to him speak, ask yourself,

is this the kind of person who makes me proud to be a fellow American? Because it's really a referendum on us. If we can't see that Joe Kent, whatever you think of his opinions is the kind of man

this country should be producing and should be elevating and should be proud of if we can't see that, then we've failed the test and we've lost. But, Judge of yourself, here's Joe Kent. Joe, thanks a lot for joining us.

So I appreciate this. So I want to go through the letter that you sent yesterday as you resigned as director of the National Counterterrorism Center.

And basically through the big points

and give you a chance to explain them. You've been spoken for quite a bit over the last 24 hours.

“I think it'd be really helpful to all of us”

if you would speak for yourself and flesh out some of these points. I'm just gonna read the first one. I cannot in good conscience support the ongoing war in Iran, Iran posed no imminent threat to our nation.

Iran posed no imminent threat to our nation. How did you reach that conclusion? - I think this is key. I mean, this would be more challenging to explain. Had the Secretary of State, the President,

and the Speaker of House, the House, not come out and said that we conducted this attack at this time because the Israelis were about to do so. So that takes away the argument

As in, Iran was planning to attack us immediately. That just simply did not exist. - I mean, I ask you to pause and so I've heard people say that and this just happened, but history has a way of getting rewritten in real time as then you look back

10 or 15, 20, 25 years later. And no one seems to understand the things that you saw 'cause they've been eliminated.

“So I think it's important to stop and say,”

here's what we actually know.

So I'd like now if we could just to play one of the statements that you alluded to, and that's the Marco Rubio, the Secretary of State, and this was shortly after this war commenced. And he was explaining, as this has happened,

in a thoughtful precise way, why? Here's Secretary of State Marco Rubio. - And so the President made the very wise decision. We knew that there was going to be in his regularly action. We knew that that would precipitate an attack against

the American forces. And we knew that if we didn't preemptively go after them before they launched those attacks, we would suffer higher casualties and perhaps even higher those killed.

And then we would all be here answering questions about why we knew that and did that. - Okay, so that is his almost contemporaneous explanation. And it's not off hand, he reasons it out. He explains there's a logic chain there and he says,

we knew not that Iran was going to attack. He did not say that, right? He said we knew that Israel was going to attack Iran in retaliation for those attacks by Israel against Iran. Iran might attack American forces.

So the imminent threat that the Secretary of State is describing is not from Iran, it's from Israel.

“- Exactly, and I think this speaks to the broader issue.”

Who was in charge of our policy in the Middle East? Who was in charge of when we decided to go to war or not? In this case, with what the Secretary described and later on the President and later on the Speaker of the House and the way the events played out,

the Israelis drove the decision to take this action, which we knew would set off a series of events, meaning Iranians would retaliate. Now, I think there's a potential there where we could have done several different things.

We could have simply said to the Israelis, no you will not. And if you do, then we will take something away from you. I think that it's fine that we offer defense to Israel. But when we're providing the means for their defense,

we get to dictate the terms of when they go on the offensive. Otherwise, they stand to lose that relationship. And the Israelis, there's really felt in bolden that no matter what they did, no matter what situation they put us in, that they could go ahead and take this action,

and we would just have to react. And so that speaks to that relationship, but also it just shows that there was a lobby pushing for us to go to war. I know we'll get into that later on in the statement,

but we had a real potential, I think, knowing what we know of the Iranians and how they react and in particular, how they react to President Trump's leadership. The Iranians under President Trump's leadership,

especially in his second term,

they have shown that they take a very calculated approach to the escalation ladder. For instance, in the lead up to the 12-day war before midnight hammer, the Iranians didn't attack us.

They were engaged in negotiations with us. When President Trump came back into office, they stopped their proxies who were attacking us under the Biden administration, because they knew Biden was weak.

They stopped their proxies from attacking us as well. So they knew President Trump was someone who wanted to negotiate, but more importantly, they knew that President Trump was not someone to mess with, because he killed Kassim Soleimati.

He killed Abu Mami Mahandis. He had defeated ISIS. They knew that President Trump was a man of action. He has militarily strong. And so they said, before we take an action,

we need to make sure that it's calculated. So I think in this scenario, even if the Israelis told us, we're going to strike on this date at this time, and we didn't try to negotiate with Israelis

and say, hey, we'll take something away from them. I think we still could have back channeled to the Iranians and said, hey, if something happens here in the next couple days, it's not us, we're still serious about negotiations, and we don't want to escalate this,

because it's well known with the Iranians' plans were, we knew that they were going to hit our potential. Their bases in the region, potentially our allies, we knew about the streets of Formus, all of these things I think were fairly well known.

“- And the truth is, the ability to close the Red Sea,”

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So for the purpose of explaining your position, or flushing it out more, so people can understand it, because this is, you're the most high-profile resignation by far in a long time, and there's a lot of commentary on this, and I took a quick trip through it this afternoon,

and one of the consistent themes as well. I mean, of course there's a lot of slander, which we can talk about, but the substantive attack on you, and it is an attack or refutation of your letter, is that, well, actually, Joe Kent was totally

for using military action. He supported the Soleimani killing, for example. He seemed fine with the 12-day war, for example. So he doesn't have a problem on principle with an engagement with Iran.

You're saying what to that, what's your response? Well, I have no compunction about really fighting anybody who threatens our country, and the Iranians have posed a threat in the past, and the Iranians have a way of threatening America.

They have the capability, and we always talk in the intelligence circles

about capability and intent, what your enemy is capable of doing, and what they actually want to do. And again, back to the data that we have on the Iranians, they use the escalation ladder, we saw that deliberately during the 12-day war.

When they struck back after midnight hammer, it was very deliberate. They fired an equal amount of missiles as we drop bombs on the nuclear facilities, and they basically hit a part of a base in Qatar that they knew we didn't have any troops on. They didn't want to escalate any further than we were willing to go.

But also, the Iranians, when they pose a threat to us, they usually do it with their proxies. And if their proxies stick their heads up, and their proxies come after us, this is basically the Trump doctrine. We hammer them, and we hammer their high profile leaders.

Customs' sole money was highly effective and highly revered in Iran,

because the previous president's prior to President Trump, Obama and Bush, let Customs' sole money run around, raise proxie armies, kill Americans, and no one ever did anything to him. President Trump rightfully killed Customs' sole money. We got his deputy, Abwadi Mahandis, who had American blood in his hands,

took them off the battlefield, but then President Trump stopped. He took those two key players off the battlefield, and he said, "I'm not going to further escalate with Iran unless you escalate with us, knowing that if we struck Iran and we truly struck the regime, that would only strengthen the regime."

So then, President Trump did something that's incredibly smart, use that decisive military action, but then he coupled it with an economic package of sanctions, maximum pressure sanctions. And we can debate whether or not we should be using sanctions as the Prime Minister of Turkey, or whatever, but he pressured the Iranians economically.

After punching them in the mouth and showing that, "Hey, I won't take this. I'm not Obama. I'm not Bush. If you cross a line, I will come after you." But then he really put the pressure on them economically. And if you look at the effect of the economic sanctions,

“that's what got the Iranian people on the streets,”

actually protesting against the Iatollah's government, which is extensively what we would like. We would like to see a bottom-up regime change where we get rid of the Iatollah, but it's the will of the people, and they have a new successful government. That's stable that we can deal with.

The one way to throw that all out the window, and this isn't just yo-kens opinion, many scholars, and I think a lot of intelligence assessments have been written about this too. I know for a fact that they have, is that if we struck the regime, it would only strengthen it. And that's not, I think that's just basic common sense.

I mean, I think of myself and probably you're in this camp as well. We didn't like Joe Biden, we didn't like Barack Obama, but if an outside force were to come in here and try and topple them, well, they were the President, I would 100% rally around the flag. That's just common sense.

So if we wanted to strike you, actually, I did. You joined the military under Bill Clinton under Glenn. I assume you didn't vote for. Right, you joined in 1998. You've gone the whole cycle of the war on terror, I notice.

“And served out as an NCO, I think you're an entire NCO war officer.”

No more in officer 20 years. And I should just say, I hate ever to refer to a man's resume as like a data point, because your idea is exists separately because of it. But in this specific case, meaning you, you spent most of your time fighting Iranian proxies.

Yeah, good deal of it. Yeah. So you're aware of the threat from Iran. You have personally used violence against that threat. Yep, a lot of it, I think, and you supported the President's policy up until fairly recently.

Right. And you've said that a lot in public, in fact, you went to work for him. He hired you. Yeah.

But here's the, from what I can tell is the central question, imminent threat.

“Now, the President has said many times to many people, including the public,”

Iran can't have a nuclear weapon. I'm sure he must have said that to you. You don't have to say it. But he said it to everybody. Is that fair?

Yeah. They can't have a nuke. Whenever asked, we say, let's just start here. They can't have a nuke. Okay.

Got it. Everyone agreed with that? Conceptually. Was Iran on the verge of getting a nuclear weapon? No.

They weren't, you know, three weeks ago, and this started, and they weren't in June, either. I mean, the Iranians have had a religious ruling of Fatwa against actually developing a nuclear weapon since 2004. That's been in place since 2004. That's available in the public sphere.

But then also, we had no intelligence to indicate that that Fatwa was being disobeyed or it was on the cusp of being lifted. The Iranian strategy, it's actually pretty pragmatic. The Iranians are obviously aware of what's taking place in their region and their strategy was to not completely abandon their nuclear program, because they saw what happened to

Mu'Markidofi and Libya. When he said, hey, I've got no more nuks. I'll do what you say. I'll give up my nuks. And we gave them the Nobel Peace Prize.

Yeah. Yeah, regime changed him, and he was executed by his own people in the most horrific time. Oh, Sodomized by a ban that. Right.

Okay.

“So that's what that's the lesson I think that the entire region took from that when Hillary”

Clinton. Unfortunately, that's what the Neocon Neoliberal Warmongers, that's the lesson that they showed everyone in the region, and then conversely, the Iranians also knew that if they came out and said, okay, we've got a nuke, whether they were bluffing or not, Saddam Hussein, Iraq right next door.

So they had to be hung, I think. He was hung by his own people after a bloody war that still essentially going on inside of Iraq. So the Iranians' position, when viewed from the lens of the region, was actually fairly pragmatic.

They were preventing themselves from developing a bomb, but they still wanted the ability. They wanted the ability to enrich. They wanted the ability to have some components so that they weren't completely stripped of it. There was a cess that there were either several months or a year or two years away from

actually being able to develop a nuke of the weapon, and that's not because the Iranians are stupid people. I think we can tell right now that the Iranians are anything but stupid. They had the ability, I think, that the brain power to actually develop one or they could have simply traded a ton of oil with Pakistan or someone else to actually get a

nuke of the weapon. They were not doing that. We had no intelligence to indicate that they were. And why was the president, was he told that they were on the brink of it? Why at the beginning of every conversation about Iran with the president say, "I don't

want Iran to have a nuclear weapon?" Why was that the central question when you would know, since you were the director of the National Counterterrorism Center, why would he say that if there was no intelligence or evidence that they were actually developing a nuke? So a couple of things, this is what I talk about in the letter about this ecosystem of information

that's laundered through. A lot of prominent neo-conservative types that are very sympathetic to the Israeli cause. And then also Israeli government officials who give us things and semi-efficient channels.

What they did was they created basically a shifting red line or a new red line.

So if the president's red line was Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon, we've actually got a lot of trade space and therefore a deal to be made because of what the Iran would just describe with the Iranian policy, essentially the Iran saying, "Okay, we don't want a nuclear weapon." Well, that means we basically are at a point where we can start negotiating and we can

come up with the deal and the president is a fantastic deal maker. So if your goal is to move us away from any kind of deal and your goal is to move us into

“a conflict, you have to shift that red line.”

And that's where a lot of this, I would say, what became a de facto US policy of Iran can have no nuclear enrichment. It was laundered through a lot of the different talking heads, Mark Levin, Mark Dubweb, you've got the foundation for the defensive democracies you name it, Washington DC has plenty of pro-Israeli lobbyists who will come and say those things, who will publish think pieces

on it, who will go on the media who will run, you know, op-eds in the Wall Street Journal to talk about this, why they can't have any enrichment whatsoever. And we have a high degree of engagement with Israeli government officials who will come in and say, well, they're enriching and they could enrich or they could enrich more. And that will get them closer to a nuclear weapon.

So then enrichment basically became the new US policy.

And the only official I've heard and folks are welcome to look for this, that said this in the first Trump administration was Mike Pompeo. He said it, the president didn't say it. The president has been very consistent. He said they can't have a nuclear weapon.

But again, like I said, that puts us at a place where we actually could have negotiations. And only President Trump, I think, could successfully have negotiations with Iran because he actually punched them in the face. And the Iranians had been walking all over us. They had been killing our soldiers, all of that is true.

President Trump level set that when he killed Kassim Soleimani and he killed Abmadi Mohanis.

The folks who wanted to push an actual regime change war in Iran knew this. And they knew there was a potential to get a deal. Or there was a potential for President Trump just to continue the policy of maximum pressure sanctions. And if you come after us, we will hit you hard.

And that got the protesters out on the street in Iran. And that's actually what the regime feared the most. I don't think the Iotola feared dying, and not because he, you know, is some crazy lunatic. I'm sure some degree of the Xi'a martyrdom culture played a factor in that.

“However, I think he knew that if he was killed, the regime would survive because the”

people would rally around the regime. Well, there's been a lot of noise that news lately, but not a bit matters if you can't hear it. And there's no shame in that. It happens to millions of people every year.

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That's the system should have done all along.

“I believe you predicted this some years ago, I think we're watching him, he's hard to”

know exactly what we're watching, but it seems consistent with what we are watching. I'm just focused on this question of imminent threat because that's really the only justification I think most Americans would accept for a preemptive war. Certainly. Otherwise, it's just like a war of choice done because BB told you to and no one wants

to get behind that because it's obviously illegitimate. So, imminent threat, you're saying that there was no intelligence that you saw with the highest level clearance, obviously involved in this conversation that showed an imminent threat from Iran to the United States. No.

Unless we took certain actions unless we came after them in a way that they thought threat in the regime, then we basically knew what they were going to do. Okay, but like any country, so if you attack any country, we know that they're going to have a reaction. We faced an imminent threat once we attacked you.

Yeah, exactly. But there was no intelligence that said, hey, on whatever day it was March 1st, the Iranians are going to launch this big sneak attack. They're going to do some kind of a 9/11 Pearl Harbor, et cetera. They're going to attack one of our bases.

There was none of that intelligence. Again, back to what we know about the Iranians, they're very, very deliberate with the escalation ladder. And they're only deliberate under President Trump's leadership because they knew and they took President Trump very, very seriously.

So, I mean, it's just, I just think it's a remarkable thing to nail down because you're not some guy on Twitter, you're seen your, as of yesterday, you were a senior U.S., intelligence official who's not hostile to President Trump who's not going to hear to what it's a little book or launch a media career. So I think you're a sober voice on this.

And just to be clear, there was no intelligence. There was no intelligence that showed there on the cusp of building a nuclear weapon. There was no intelligence. Indeed, that showed they were trying to build a nuclear weapon. And nobody, you know, said, I've seen it, but you haven't.

It exists, but you just haven't seen it. Did you ever hear anybody say there is intel that shows this? I did not know. But I know how this works. I know these really officials, some in intelligence, some in government will come to U.S.

government officials. And they will say all kinds of things that we know from our intelligence just simply isn't true. And they'll say, hey, I'm giving you a preview.

It's not an intelligence channels yet, but here's what's going to happen.

And that doesn't usually come away. Wait a second. I mean, I thought that U.S. policymakers made their decisions on the basis of intelligence

“collected and/or vetted by our intelligence, that's why we have intelligence agencies that”

soak up hundreds of billions a year. And you're saying that Israeli officials, short-circuited the entire U.S. government, it's went right to American policymakers and said, it doesn't matter what your country says, here's what we know. So it's just--

I mean, usually they're pretty slick. And they'll say, hey, this isn't in intelligent channels yet because it's going to take some time to get there. And here, they're on the customer building a bomb. They're going to, I don't know, you pick your topic a lot of times, they'll sample different

things until they find what sticks. And in general, the narrative about, you know, they're going to do a prampive attack. Or really, just they're going to build a nuclear weapon.

And enrichment is the pathway to that.

“They're going to continue enriching at whatever percent enrichment became the narrative.”

And so that hung up in that short-circuited and really sabotaged the entire negotiation.

It's because the Iranians basically said, like, we're not going to negotiate if the whole

starting point is no enrichment. And again, that had nothing to do with a nuclear weapon, and the Iranians essentially agreed to that. So these release came in. They moved that red line, and they would do a lot to say, like, oh, they're enriching

it. And you know what that means? That means in X amount of time they could have a nuclear bomb. You have to ask now. And then the way the ecosystem would work is that the talking heads on TV, you know, your

markle of ends, Sean Hannity's, et cetera, they would say basically the exact same thing, that night on TV, or there would be a piece written in the Wall Street Journal of the New York Times, that would say something very, very similar, yet if you looked in classified intelligence, we didn't see any of that. I mean, that must have been such a weird experience for you, as our since you have access

to the biggest and most powerful and presumably the best intelligencies in the world.

And you're seeing people say things as fact when you know they're not facts. Right. What was that like? deteriorating.

“And I think that's why in general, in the lead up to this last iteration, a good deal”

of key decision makers were not allowed to come express their opinion to the president. Not allowed by whom? I think it's important for me right now just to stay on the facts. I don't want to point names. I don't want this to come a name calling or, you know, this guy did this on this day.

But any leader has gatekeepers, and so you're saying that you were prevented from bringing this information directly to the president by gatekeepers. Well, there wasn't a robust debate, so in general, because our assessment really hadn't changed. You know, we would send those up through intelligent channels, everyone's kind of reading

the same intelligence, but then what actually gets briefed to the president can be very, very different depending on who and how it's delivered. And without a level set from the intelligence community, someone like DNI Gabbard coming in and saying Mr. President, like here's the full scope of the intelligence, and what it means, you're kind of lacking that that sanity check of where we're at, or at least

a good sampling, you know, to gauge how accurate what the Israelis are saying is.

And that process, in my view, was largely stifled in the second iteration.

There was robust debate and robust discussions leading up to the 12-day war into the United Hammer, but this the second round to me, and I'm sure others will refute this and disagree with me, but what was conducted by just a handful of small other advisors around the president. That is true.

I believe what you're saying is true. My sense, though, and you would know more than I, is there weren't a lot of people directly around the president who work there, who work at the White House, his, you know, the principles, we're making an aggressive case for this war. Do you think there was, I mean, was there a majority of, like, his top ten advisors who

were saying we must do this now?

“I think the, I think the circle that was, that he, that was around him was very, very”

tight and very small, and I think they were all in the same sheet of music. And I think a lot of them were getting their information from the ecosystem that I described. And I think we'd be in a different place if we would have talked about the actual, what the intelligence picture is, and what are, what are, so Israeli government talking points laundered through Fox News in the Wall Street Journal, is that the ecosystem you're talking

about? Yeah, and then the Israeli officials coming in, and basically either ahead of time or after the fact, saying the same thing, like the enrichment is going to get them a nuclear bomb and set them out of time. Do you believe that you and the, the DNI, for whom you worked until yesterday, had as much

face time with the president as Israeli officials did? I don't know, I don't know that for sure, because I don't know exactly how frequently the Israelis were engaging directly with the president. It did seem like Benjamin Netanyahu was, you know, obviously there was all public that he was in the last time.

Seven times. Quite a bit. Yeah. Quite a bit. And then his other officials as well, Dermer, etc., those guys were in, they were making phone

calls, just a lot of engagement from them. Again, when, when we would hear, or you'd hear what they were saying, it didn't reflect in intelligence channels, even intelligence that we shared with the Israelis that the Israelis were giving us in many cases. So there was, there was a clear, you know, gap between, you know, the intelligence and then

the information that the president was given and the decision that the president was making. I don't want to put, you know, in a comfortable position, obviously you're not going to divulge anything that's classified, and I don't think you would, you definitely shouldn't, because there are people who hurt you for that, and you shouldn't. So without encouraging you to do that, it's, yeah, I think it's a common place that's

I've heard from many people who work in your business that a substantial portion of our

information touches Israel at some point, either it's collected by them. It is shaped by them. It's not purely American. Is that a fair? Is that, do you think it's fair?

I especially in the Middle East, I would say, I mean, look, the Israelis are tactically very proficient. Yes. They have a very competent intelligence service, and there's a lot that we can learn from them in the craft of intelligence.

Yes. So they're, they're very proficient. They're very good.

“However, whenever we get information from a liaison service, I think it's incredibly important”

to realize that it could be given to us to influence us as well as to inform us. And the way that I would see is really information, in particular, coming from senior officials directly to our senior officials, that caveat just wasn't given frequently enough. And there's a lot of times, some of this is just because of bureaucratic practice, but a lot of it, I think, is just, we feel very comfortable with the Israelis, a lot of them

are dual citizens. They sound like us, they don't feel foreign. We kind of go into a more complacent mode where we trust a lot of what they have to say, not keeping in the back of our mind, that they have their own agenda and we have our own agenda at the end of the day.

Now, I'd say a lot of times, we have the same agenda. It's very, very, but they're tactically in the same when it comes to fighting, as below, when it comes to fighting terrorism, sure. But when it comes to what's our strategic goal in a war that's going to have ramifications for our nation, for the region, for global energy supplies, I think most folks right now,

the Pentagon and the intelligence agencies, they would say us and the Israelis actually have a different objective here. I don't believe that our objective has been clearly defined because we're shying away from regime change, the Israelis are not shying away from regime change. They want to knock out, lock, stock, and barrel the current government.

They don't seem to have a plan for what comes next. Well, that was my next question.

“I think you would have heard a tale of such a plan.”

So if you're going to take out a government, I think it's fair to ask what replaces it.

And I have asked a bunch of people, many people, this question, never gotten any answer.

So, however, other than there's no plan these Israelis don't have a plan because they don't care. Do you think that's fair? I think that's completely fair. I think as Americans rightfully, we want to clear stated objective and in-state for war.

I think that's something that was born out of the G-Watt was born out of the Vietnam era. Americans want to know why we're going to war and what the in-state is and they can get on board in general if that's clearly articulated. That's not the case with Iran.

The Israelis are different. I think a lot of times again because they, a lot of them speak English, they culturally feel the same, but the Israelis have a much different tolerance for how and why they're going to war and their endurance for war.

“The Israelis are completely fine with Iran slipping into chaos.”

That means that the Iatola and the IRGC can't really threaten them anymore as well as money might be cut off in their head. And so, complete chaos in Iran, it's not necessarily a bad thing for the Israelis. For us, for global energy, the Straits of Hormuz, our partners in the GCC, a mass migration problems in Europe, this is a major problem.

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cats, and your wallet will thank you. Right, and it's a little gawling that I was treated to lectures for a couple of weeks about the valiant people of Iran and how we needed to save them and then a lot of the exile communities here in the United States of Iranians, a lot of them really nice people.

We got to save our people, but by your telling and by the facts, by the way, this is not

really an opinion. There's no plan for what happens after a regime change. Like the people pushing that line would just be happy to see a permanent civil war there. Which is insanity. If we do want a real regime change and we want the people to rise up and want it to

happen fairly organically, going aggressively after the eye at toola was the last thing that we ever should have done. Again, I know fan of the former Supreme Leader, however, he was moderating their nuclear program. He was preventing them from getting a nuclear weapon.

If you take him out, if you kill him aggressively, people are going to rally around that regime.

“And the next eye at toola that you get, and I think this is the case by all that we have”

with the sun, the next eye at toola that you get is going to be more radical because he has to show the people that he's going to push back.

And there's always a tension inside of Iran between the IRGC, the Iranian Revolutionary

Guard Corps, and the clerics who run the country, they have a healthy, I think, tension between the two arrive or a IRGC's leadership. These are custom soul bodies troops. These are the guys that sonwati trained, these guys most of them cut their teeth in the Iraq around war, a lot of them cut their teeth fighting us in Iraq.

They cut their teeth fighting ISIS in Iraq in Syria. They created Hezbollah, they trained in armed Hezbollah. So these guys are actually pretty serious and pretty hard-line, and they're willing to fight and they want to fight. And so by killing the Iatola, we've given them more power because now, internally, they

can go and they can say, "Hey, all you guys, you thought that we could negotiate with the Americans, your Chumps, we have to fight them." So I think the longer this goes on, the more negotiators, the more moderates that are

killed off, like we just killed, you know, Alaylan Johnny, who wasn't negotiator, who was

eager to get us a deal. Again, look, I've got no love for the IRGC, I've got no love for the Iranians, but you've got a real life. Just to be clear, if you want it to be. In case you're shooting, you know, you fought their proxies.

And I thought their proxies, I mean, I put countless of them in flex cuffs or much worse. I've gone after the Iranians, I was in specialized outfits that went after the Iranians and their proxies. These are very serious people. They're not, you know, Superman, by any means, they're humans, but they're serious.

And if you give the IRGC a reason to take more control and they get support from the people, because, again, you know, you kill off the Iatola, they can say, "Hey, the last guy was too moderate. Look at what it got us. Give us more control."

I get it. And the Iranian people are going to be like, "Well, actually, yeah, I don't like getting bombed by the Americans in the USA, maybe we do need to listen to the IRGC."

“So a lot of these, uh, the points that you're making, I think are insightful, but they're”

also pretty obvious if you kind of gave it out for 10 seconds. So it seems like you've got two different goals. You've described Israel's goal as just regime change, permanent chaos, take Iran off the map as a coherent nation state, just tie them up with internal chaos, whatever the effects of that are, the rest of the world, all of them disasters.

Then on the American side, you have the president's state of goal, which is we can't let Iran have a nuclear weapon, which they didn't have and weren't trying to build in any imminent way. Right. Okay.

So if you join those two together in a common mission in a war, like that's our partner in this war. Yeah. It all kinds of very bad incentives. And now, Laura Johnny, I think, was killed by these railies.

You saw these railies blow up Catory Natural Gas facilities today in the Catory Natural Gas field, which feeds the rest of the world, LNG. Those seem like very obvious steps, not to minimize the threat from Iran, but to lock down the United States in Permal War. We can't get out after we do that.

You killed an negotiator, you attack our closest ally in the regions, probably Catory. You attack Catory, apparently, like, no one thought this might happen. And there's no, there's no reigns on these railies, unfortunately. I mean, we continue to refer to them, like as our partners are equal to the best partners we've ever had.

But at the end of the day, these railies couldn't do any of this without us. But they're acting against our interests in a very obvious and very serious way. And again, it's obvious, if we've stated that our goal is just to take away their ability to ever even enrich and to take away their beliefs and to take away their Navy, all these kind of tactical objectives, if we say that that's our objective, and that's when we can

come to a place where we can just exit, it's in the Israeli's interest to get us more and more entrenched in this. And that's exactly what they're doing right now.

“You know, when these railies killed my own Johnny, I think I made a mispoke and said, we”

can't, we didn't kill him. These railies struck him. But I do believe in Iran at this point in the war, they view it as whether we like it or

I think they view it as we us and these railies kind of as the same thing.

We've described it that way. Because the Israelis couldn't do any of this without us. And that's where the relationship is just way off kilther. If they have different objectives than us, than what are we doing, letting them drive the war?

So, you just said something that's been disputed many times by the Mark, well, I'm not going to name anybody. But by advocates for Israel, it's a PR department here in the United States, which is huge. And you said they couldn't do any of this without us. You often hear its promoters, it's lobbyists say, Israel just wants to fight its own

wars. Back off and let us do it. Is that not? I'd love to us to run the experiment we try that. What would happen?

You know, the Israelis, again, they have the ability to go out and collect great intelligence. They have a very capable military, but they're a very small country.

“I think Israel would be able to defend itself.”

I think it could conduct limited strikes on its borders. I think it could continue carrying out pretty impressive targeted assassinations against its adversaries. And so I think you would see it relatively contained. What it couldn't do is go topple entire governments.

It couldn't do something like the Iran War, the Iraq War. It couldn't aggressively, you know, destabilize Syria. These big heavy lifts of regime change that America has been engaged in, Israel could not do on their own, which is where you get back to the Israeli lobby being just so potent

and so powerful and so aggressive.

And I want to ask with that because that's the line that you're being attacked for. And so I want to go through and have you explain more fully, if you would, why you said what you did and read it. But before I do that one last question, did was any of this debated that you know of before this war commenced three weeks ago, did anyone say wait a second, if we do this and

kill the Iatola because that was like the first order, I think. What are the, the facts after and like what's the goal, did these debates ever, I know they happened heavily before the 12th they were.

“I think that when the Israelis came back around and said they wanted to do this, I just”

don't think there was any debate. I think just based on the ecosystem and the amount of influence that was exerted. Because in some ways this is a little humiliating since we were told, I was told the whole country was told that after the 12th day war, there was no Iranian nuclear threat. We got rid of it.

I'm not imagining that. It just happened last summer. Yeah. Do you recall those statements? Yeah.

I mean, Operation Minute Hammer? Yes. Destroy their nuclear capability. So how was it that we wound up six months later getting another lecture about their nuclear capability.

And it's even a threat to the United States.

And nuclear tip ballistic missiles aimed at Miami and the whole thing and nobody, first

of it, there was no organized protest against this, like in a normal country. People would rise up and be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You just hold us six months ago, the exact opposite of it.

“What did internally in the entire world, people say what the hell is going on?”

I just think that the planning for this was so compartmentalized that there was no debate. As it was a foregone conclusion, maybe the exact timing they weren't exactly aware of, or that had to be debated when do we do it? But it seemed to be a foregone conclusion. And I'm sure others will say, no, that's not the case at all.

But there was no robust debate, like there was going into the 12 day war, because a big question that a lot of us had that were skeptical of Operation Minute Hammer was, okay, so we do this, we know the Israeli's whole goal is regime change. What makes us think they'll stop? And if they do stop for a period of time, why won't we just be back in the same place

in six months, or they're saying that we have to go back in? And that's essentially exactly what happened. So this was raised, and this was raised to my knowledge in June. This was like, hey, what happens next? So you take out the ability for them to enrich and to potentially develop a nuclear

weapon. That's done. We know the Israelis have a completely different goal. Part of that strikemen, that Hammer was also to get the Israelis to wrap up the 12 day war.

But we knew, because the Israelis told us that this is the time to take down the regime, and they don't want the eye to let it be in power. They want a regime change. They want a new government there. So we said, okay, knowing that we know that this strike, this limited strike that we're

going to do, isn't going to be enough. At some point, the Israelis are going to come back to us and say, hey, we have to go again. With that knowledge, and I think because so many of us had pointed that out, and because these Israelis had said it, there wasn't a big debate this last time. They had that discussion behind closed doors, and there wasn't a chance for any dissenting

voices to come in.

the people making this decision go immediately to their own intel agencies and in your case

agency that has jurisdiction over those agencies and say, all available intel on the question of the Iranian nuclear program, all available intel on the question of ICBMs or it's supposed to missile program, all available intel on what might happen if we topple the regime in place. This is all being gamed out for a long time.

There's a constant process of gathering it into on it, correct? Yeah.

“And that's what we did in the lead up to the 12-day war.”

But this time, no. But this time, no. Not to my knowledge. And I'm sure the administration will come out and say, no, you just weren't invited, but I've got a pretty good idea of how those meetings look, and even if I wasn't invited, at least

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So I almost don't want to bring this up because it's so distressing, but I have to ask a question about blowback, the effects, the downstream effects of military action, terrorism in the United States. And I have the feeling we're going to see some of it, but I'm going to ask you. But since you are a acknowledged expert on that question, since you spent your adult life

fighting a running in proxies and because we're always hearing some of them in the United

States, did anyone go to you and say, if we do this, what are the odds that we will have terror attacks in the homeland? That was a piece or an intelligence product that we worked up on our own. I bet. And coordinated throughout the intelligence community, basically we talked about the Iranians

ability to conduct sleeper cell like attacks, which is actually pretty limited. The whole idea of sleeper cells or a cell operating is challenging in today's environment because cells have to communicate with each other and we're pretty good at picking up on that. The real threat and most major terrorist organizations have kind of moved to this model

is the load actors, it's inspiring people that are already in place by using the media. There was already a ton of blowback because the Gaza war, Hamas used propaganda very,

“very effectively to, I think, carry a lot of favor with younger people here in the United”

States and abroad. And there was multiple terrorist attacks in America in the last year where Gaza was cited because they consumed some of the propaganda coming out of Gaza. And these people weren't infiltrated Iranian agents, they were here, folks that were home and groan.

And so we said, "Hey, the biggest threat right now isn't that the Iranians are going to like sneak some guys over and they've been waiting here for years and there could's force operatives." That's always possible. Again, the Iranians are very competent as well.

And they have tried something like that before in the past back under the Obama administration, whether they tried to kill the Saudi ambassador in Georgetown. So we were worried about that, but we were more worried about was the fact that Biden had the border open for four plus years. And I testified publicly in Congress laying out that all 18,000 known suspect to terrorist

that potentially could be in the country since then.

We've discovered potentially more the problem is the bookkeeping under the Biden administration

was kind of like the border, it was wide open. And so we don't know how many folks are actually in the country that shouldn't be here. It's millions, how many of them have ties to countries that are adjacent to Iran or that are Iranian, we're still, as I left, we are still working on some of those numbers. But we've seen several terrorist attacks since these operations again in America.

And they all fit that lone actor-inspired model. So the blowback is, as long as this goes on and the more the propaganda and never against weaponized, we are going to see more than likely more people here that are radical. Now, frankly, I think that none of the -- and this is another great thing about President Trump.

None of these people should be in the country.

We should be focused right now.

Our focus should be on finding everyone who shouldn't be in our country right now and getting them out as soon as possible, not in another foreign adventure. I wonder -- I mean, so you've already seen in the wake of a recent terror attack, neocons, you use that attack as a way to try and censor shut down, maybe even in prison, critics of the decision to go to war in Iran.

So it's almost like you control both sides with you advocate for a war which inevitably

“stokes religious hatred because you advocate for the killing of a religious leader, okay?”

So you're helping to create religious war, permanent-generational, religious war. And then when you're a country or the country you happen to be living and that you don't really care about, feels the effects when Americans are killed as a result of that you use their deaths to justify the silencing of people who criticize to you. Does that make sense?

Exactly. Yeah. So how much -- are you concerned we're going to see more of that? I'm very concerned. I think we -- I probably won't, but the odds are not in our favor.

Just considering how open our borders have been, obviously this type of propaganda radicalizes people. Again, we've already seen attacks, we saw attacks inspired by the conflict in Gaza. So I think we're going to see more of this and then just, you know, make the mistake of opening up Twitter a couple of times today.

There's people calling for, you know, dissenting voices to be charged, to be locked down. Of course. etc. And so -- And they may be? The erosion of civil rights.

“I think during a time of conflict, there's nothing new, unfortunately, we've seen it”

before. It's the rule. But I -- I wonder though, is like, people talk through, or maybe they didn't talk it through. But did anybody in the lead-up to this -- I just want to ask it again to make sure I understand

the answer -- in the lead-up to this war, so now regional war potentially a global war, big war, biggest war of our lives. Did anyone come to you and say, "Do you have it? What's your projection for, like, what the effects on the United States will be?" Like, how many Americans could die at the shopping mall because of this, or at school?

We proactively wrote an assessment, which is what we tend to do anyways. But again, there just wasn't a huge process and an debate about this last iteration. But you're worried about it. I'm very concerned about it. I am too.

I am too. Yeah, I'm too. Okay, so let me read you the most controversial, and you've addressed this to some extent, but I'd like you to flesh out a little more if you don't mind. You say, "Sport the values, the foreign policies, that you campaigned on during three campaigns,

and that you enacted, you understood, up until June of 2025, that the wars, the Middle East were a trap that robbed America of the precious lives, or a Patriots, and depleted the wealth and prosperity of our nation." Early in this administration, this is the change. High ranking is really officials and influential members of the American media deployed

a misinformation campaign that wholly undermined your America first platform and so'd pro-war

sentiments to encourage a war with Iran. This echo chamber was used to deceive you into believing that Iran posed an imminent

“threat to the United States, and that you should strike now.”

There was a clear path to a swift victory. This was a lie, and is the same tactic that Israelis used to draw us into the disastrous Iraq war that cost our nation the lives of thousands of our best men and women we could not make this mistake again. So I think you've explained how the echo chamber and the lobbying campaign worked.

It wasn't just unfox and the Wall Street Journal. It was by telephone and text messages, it was in person, and it was relentless. And there was no counterfailing campaign. There was almost no body who went to the President and said, "Well, actually, here's the American view," which is frustrating.

But then you alluded at the end of that to the Iraq war, and I think you told me it didn't last night. I think you spent five years, total alone, or you were 11 combat deployants you spent about you think five years. Yeah, I mean, nine of those deployments were to Iraq for six to eight months, so yeah.

Okay. So you've had some time to think about the Iraq war. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

More time than a selfie. Yeah. Can I just say, because it makes me. But here you go, you join the Army at 18, 18. You spend your whole young life there, go to all these wars 11 deployments.

You spend five years in Iraq over seven deployments, and you reach a series of conclusions fighting and being shot at by Iranian proxies. And now you say, "I don't think this war is good for America, and you're being slandered as a bad, unpatriotic, quitter who secretly sympathizes with the Iotola. I just have to ask you how that feels."

I mean, they love you when you're just sleuding and moving out, but then the second

you say, "I don't think we should be doing this, and I haven't opinion now, then all the attacks come at you." But I truly believe that God put me where I am right now, really putting me through

I don't believe that God said, "Hey, you're here now in this moment to just sit back and be a good soldier for this iteration."

“I've had lots of friends who have said, "Hey, I think you would have been more value”

staying in the administration with your experiences," and I understand that I'm plattered by it, but considering all that I've seen, the conclusions that I've reached, I feel like

I'm here for a reason, and something I think probably on my third or fourth deployment,

because I was realizing that we were lied to get us into Iraq, and that we had a whole mess that we now had to clean up, and how much it adhered and echoed Vietnam. I remember as, you know, being in my mid to late 20s, being very frustrated with a lot of the Vietnam veterans who did not speak up against. I know some did, but especially Vietnam veterans who stayed in service as I had intended

to do, who stayed in service and who advocated for the Iraq War. The colon pal is someone who I have a lot of respect for for it, for the way he fought in Vietnam, his leadership in Desert Storm, but then the way that he was part of lying to get us into the Iraq War, and then staying on and continuing those lies, knowing full will, having all the experiences of being a guy on the ground in a feudal war that

was, you know, basically, we were going to deploy two under false pretenses.

“He had all that knowledge, and because he wanted to be loyal to, I think the president,”

and I think he wanted to be loyal to what he felt was the government that would eventually get it right, he didn't step out and say, we shouldn't be doing this, and I just remember reflecting on that, and you know, I said to myself at the time, and this might seem, you know, silly and idealistic, but said to myself at the time, if it's ever my turn, if it's ever my generation's turn, I'm going to do everything that I can to make sure this doesn't

happen to the next generation. So a real breaking point for me, I, you know, did the best I could for a couple of weeks as this war started from the inside to try and find, you know, off ramps to try and provide information to see what I could do from the inside, but watching the casualties roll in, and I don't want to use anyone's, you know, loss as a political talking point,

but for me personally, watching more casualties come in, I just couldn't stand by as both of that trend, and then, you know, as a gold star husband, and say, like, I'm just going to continue to soldier on in this. It's time to try something different. I know this path that we're on. It doesn't work. I've seen enough data. It's time to do something different. How hard a decision was it? It became really clear to me. You know, over the weekend,

this past weekend that our message just wasn't getting through, and I was like, I know what, I know what happens if I stay. If I stay and I go along with this, I'm going to be, you know, knee deep in it, trying to just chip away and make a difference, but my ability to have, you know, my voice heard to present data that runs contrary to the trajectory and the agenda that the administration's on, that's going to be squashed before it even really reaches the

White House. And so I knew I had kind of hit my limit of effectiveness in that capacity. So really, it should have been a hard decision, but for me, it was crystal clear. It was like, number one, I can't be a part of this in good conscience. And I need to do everything I can to actually speak out about it and speak out in a way that I hope resonates with the president and some of my former colleagues. I understand they might be mad at me. They're getting hard questions from the media,

but I really want them as we descend even further into this war. I really hope that they take the time to reflect and to realize that we still have time to get us out of this. And then also for

the 77 million people who voted for President Trump, who voted for no new wars, who voted for

the foreign policy that President Trump enacted in his first administration, the foreign policy that I described. I mean, President Trump's first foreign policy, the one that he ran on, the one that he, I destroyed the Republican Neocon establishment on, was incredibly pragmatic. We're not saying, you know, you have to be some kind of a, you know, pacifist, what we are saying, though, that you have to be very, very deliberate and judicious and how you use force. And you also have

to use the full scope of the American toolbox. You used diplomacy, you use our economic leverage. And again, this isn't something that I came up with. President Trump came up with this. President Trump enacted this. And this is why 77 million people voted for him. It's probably not the only reason. But the no new wars put America first. Don't let us bleed out in the Middle East.

“That's what people voted for. And that's what I think, you know, you can't pay for. And I think”

that's something he could get us back to. If he just takes a look and assesses how we got to where we are right now. I want to get to that in a minute. Your solution. You know, you know, that I just want to be transparent about my motives, not in this to attack anybody. Right. I'm concerned to the point of agitation about where this is going. And it's effects on the United States. I think I hope

happened in my lifetime. So I want to fix it. And I want to happen again. Exactly. And I don't want

history to be written in real time by liars in such a way that no one understands what we're going through. And then we make the same mistakes. And this is a principle that any parent applies to his own children. No, say I don't know what you did. And you're less likely to do it again. So before I say that, I just want to pause just on your personal experience. I'm talking about it. I'm not going to make you uncomfortable. I'm pushing too much. But you just, you feel it. I feel

as an observer such sadness for the men who've been used, including you. And I wonder how given everything you've done and everything you've just said, how you don't feel better at the response

“that you've gotten from people, some people. How do you keep the bitterness out?”

I think faith, I've got a great life. God bless me to ice with my late wife, Shannon and my wife,

Heather. Our two boys, Colton, Joshua. I think we're watching this hopefully. So faith and staying grounded on what's important. But then also look, the people who are coming after me, I believe that the internet is like 25% real. I think there's a lot of bots. There's a lot of people who've got delivered a talking point and they're going to get a paycheck for it. Or they just, you know, they want the, the adoration. So I just don't take most of it seriously. And again,

look, I know there's some of my former colleagues, people who I do like who have had to come after me. And I understand that too. Like I get it. Like they're still there. They've got to discredit everything I'm saying right now. They're watching taking notes. So I'm not bitter about that. I literally just want to focus on the task at hand and the task at hand is stopping us from getting deeper into this, this, this quagmire. Because again, like just looking back on my experiences in rock,

I don't feel like this happened. There wasn't the ability to. There wasn't this platform. There wasn't, you know, the free independent media that existed in a real way that could reach people. That's right. And so to me, we have this opportunity. So I'll be bitter and angry later when, you know, I retweet her in somebody who I used to like says that joke ends at trader and we're going to fire him tomorrow anyway. As, you know, I, I don't, we don't have time for that. Like as you

pointed out, major things are happening right now in this war and the president is facing some very, very challenging decisions. So I personally just hope that he and his closest advisors listen and think and that's, that's the main priority. So I strongly agree. And we can't allow hatred of us to inspire hatred in ourselves. You can't become a hatred. It'll destroy you. It's what they want. So I just, I, I salute you for avoiding that and it's absolutely real. I spent a lot of time with

you and you're not a hatred at all. You don't even see that bothered. So that's incredible given where you are. It's amazing. It's an active faith. And I love it. End of the history portion of the of the

“segment, but I just think it's important to establish why you said first the war in Iraq, second the”

conflict in Syria, which took the life of your wife, why both of those were driven by Israel.

Well, the war in Syria never would happen about the war in Iraq. I mean, so had we not gone in

invaded Iraq, we wouldn't have had the conflict in Syria. But Syria was always a major problem under Assad for the Israelis, both under his father and under the Bashar al-Assad, Al-Hafis and Bashar. Because of their support, the relationship with the Iranians, their support for Hezbollah makes sense. And so they wanted to get rid of Assad as well. They saw Iraq as a vehicle for not just taking down Saddam Hussein who posed the threat to them as well, but also as a way

a lily pad, if you will, to get rid of Syria. And basically, so Assad must go with Assad's slogan that all of a sudden emerged out of nowhere. Right. That was not like an organic American desire. It was like Americans woke up and more like, you know, the problem. The problem really is this ophthalmologist from Syria. He must go. It was that would that reflected the priorities of

“Israel, not Israel. And then I think you had the echo chamber as well, because you had all”

the usual suspects, you had FDD, and you had all these different other organizations that were out there saying that like, now's the time to, you know, very, very, very waste. Very, very waste. Break up for Shackles on Syria. The next thing you know, like although we had Syria and Thomas Jefferson, they'll take over. And instead, we got the former leader of Al-Qaeda. But a big reason that Syria became next after Iraq and Iraq, we screwed the whole thing up so badly

that we, we toppled Saddam, destabilized, fought a bitter insurgency. The soonies eventually aligned with Al-Qaeda. But then we beat them down so heavily, because the she is the majority of the country. The she is took over she is largely the she is that we installed in Iraq, the dawa party, bottom, scary, et cetera. You know, heavily aligned with Iran. And so at the end of the Iraq war

Baghdad to the Iranians who, again, hostile to us, costume so money is running all over the place, funding proxies. It's a great deal. It helps Iran's circumvent sanctions, the relationship with Iraq. And we just spent trillions lost nearly 5,000 Americans there. And now we have the shea super state. And so then there was a ton of pressure coming from not just the Israelis, but I think also a lot of the the gulf to say hey, we've got to get rid of Assad as well. Because now you have

this this Iranian land bridge that goes basically from Damascus all the way to Tehran. And then

you can hook that down into the Lebanese area where we're hezbollah. So next thing you know, well,

“if you want to get rid of the the guy Assad who's in Awat, well, we got a country full of like”

really angry soonies. And what are those guys going to turn into? And so next thing you know, we're now on the side of ISIS and Al Qaeda, ISIS gets out of control. And we have to deploy back to Iraq, back to Syria, to put out essentially the brush fire that we created. And so that's why I can I put all of those together. Because again, without Israel's influence would all of this have happened with the Iraq war have happened. Maybe, but they heavily lobbied for it. I mean Benjamin Netanyahu,

you can pull up tapes on YouTube like the guy was lobbying heavily back in 2002 for yesterday

regime change in Iraq. And he has stayed in power ever since. Errol Schroen who initially was the PM in the lead up the Iraq war. And initially was against it because he wanted us to focus on Iran. But then towards the end he got on board as well. But the Lakud party that's in power and has been driving Israeli politics now for most of my adult life, they were heavily in favor of the regime change war in Iraq, which again led to, she had domination, led to the rise of ISIS, led to the rise

of Al Qaeda, and then heavily fueled the Syrian civil war. So again, this country israel who they can be a good partner in some regards. I'm not anti-Israeli. I've worked with these railways again, very competent intelligence service, very wonderful people. But they have different objectives than we do. So to put them in the driver's seat of our foreign policy and to let them dictate our foreign policy is a disservice to the American people.

“Well, I think, you know, I think you're understating the effect to disservice”

suggests like an inconvenience. Dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now we're looking at bankruptcy in death and collapse of the dollar. And like lots and I'm not blaming Israel. By the way, I'm not blaming Israel for any of it. I'm blaming supine American leadership that takes this. I don't understand it at all. And that kind of leads the most uncomfortable question of all. And I don't know if you can answer it. I don't think

I can answer it. But since all of these dynamics are very well known to everyone in Washington, everyone in pretentious is not real. The Tom Cotton's of the world, Lindsey Graham's or whatever, you know, the liars. Everybody knows. Everybody knows. Pros are people know. Anti-Israeli will know that what you're saying is true. And don't think there's any debate about any of it. So since it was clear that we were being pushed by the Netanyahu government into this war

that they were choosing the timing, they chose the timing. Right? I mean, yeah. I'll take my group as word for it. I'll take my group as word for it. Was it ever discussed the option that

“you mentioned at the beginning like how about no? Not that I know of. Okay. So then you have to”

ask, I'm just following the logic train here. How could what kind of pressure does it require to get a president who campaigned against exactly this thing for 10 years to do exactly this thing? What does it take to do that? I wish I knew definitively. I think there's two potentials, two schools of thought. I mean, one is the media echo chamber, the donors, the way the Israelis come in and kind of long to the information like I like it described previously. And then the other

options much darker. I mean, we still don't know what happened in Butler. We don't know what happened with Charlie Kirk. And I know means am I saying like, you know, Israelis did this or or any of that. But I'm saying there's a lot of unanswered questions there. And there is enough data to at least say that there's a good chance that President Trump feels like he is

under threat. We're not allowed to ask, basically, was there any linkage between what took place

with us of Martian who was recruited by the Iranians to come to America to recruit proxies, to kill President Trump. FBI put a confidence human source at him. All this is public now. This is all out there in the open. And he's arrested. And then two days later, a sniper takes a shot of President Trump. We think, Merchant, and the CHS was talking about the human source

with a sniper rifle. But then they arrest him two days later, Butler happens. And crux, according

“to the official narrative, anyways, is an ing-mo. We don't know anything about him. We can't”

get into his devices. If we did get into his devices, maybe there's nothing there, no more questions are allowed to be asked about Thomas Crooks. The DHS IG is currently being blocked from investigating Butler as well. That's out in the media. That's all well known. You're investigative journalist found that Crooks didn't eat have an online persona. Quite an excellent footprint. He was talking to people. So it's like, why aren't we investigating

this? You know, I mean, if an attempted murder of a presidential candidate, and then there's another assassination attempt, there's been multiple public breaches of President Trump's security

over the last year. And then, you know, Charlie Kirk is killed publicly in a very horrific way,

and we're not really even allowed to look into that at all. And Charlie Kirk was one of President Trump's closest advisors, and he also advocated heavily against a war with Iran. He was in the Oval Office in the lead up to the 12-day war. I wasn't particularly close with Charlie. He was very gracious to me when I was running for Congress, very, very supportive. So we knew each other. And the last time I saw Charlie Kirk on this Earth was in June, in the west wing, in the

stairway, and I said hi to him, and he looked me in the eye, and he said very loudly, and it's a small human in the west wing. It's a small, it's a tight space. And he said Joe stopped us from getting

“into a war with Iran. Very loudly. He was single-minded. And he walked off, and he went, I believe,”

into the Oval. So when one of President Trump's closest advisors who is vocally advocating for us to not go to war with Iran, and for us to rethink at least our relationship with the Israelis. And then he suddenly publicly assassinated, and we're not allowed to ask any questions about that. It's a data point. It's a data point that we need to look into. What do you mean when you say we're not allowed to ask any questions about that? We've been told that this individual Robinson

is a loan government, and maybe he is. But the investigation that I was a part of, the National Counterterrorism Center was a part of. We were stopped from continuing to investigate. And the FBI will say that they stopped that because they wanted to have, every turn, everything over to the Utah state authorities, everything's going to trial. It's very, very sensitive. But there was still a lot for us to look into that I can't really get into. But there was still linkage for us to investigate

that we needed to run down. And I'm not making any conclusions. I'm not saying no, I don't think you were. Because, you know, because of this, this happened. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying there's unanswered questions. We know the pressure, because of the text messages, the text messages that have been made public, that Charlie was under a lot of pressure from a lot of pro Israel donors. And again, we know Charlie was advocating to President Trump against this war with Iran. And we

knew at the end of the 12-day war at the end of the Midnight Hammer that the Israeli's were going to come back and ask us to go back to war again. So we have a lot of data points between Butler, the assassination attempt against President Trump, the breaches of his security, what happened to Charlie Kirk? Can I ask you to pause on the Charlie Kirk just because it upsets me to hear what you're saying to be reminded that he was murdered. But also to hear you

confirm what was reported in the media several months ago that your office had been blocked from investigating his murder. That does not make sense to me. I don't understand why you would ever turn down help in an investigation from a U.S. agency with a lot of experience in gathering intelligence on things that are job. The FBI will say, and the DOGA will say that because it's an ongoing case, it's a Utah State case that back off they've got it. They've got a smoking case.

They've got the fingerprints on the gun and they've got the case. But the FBI was involved in

the case. The FBI was involved the FBI's basically said that they're deferring to Utah because

it's now okay. They've established a precedent for federal investigation of this crime. Yeah. And the National Counterterrorism Center's mandate is to investigate any foreign ties to see if there's potentially any foreign ties. If we don't find any foreign ties, we back off. What I'm saying about getting into too much detail is there was more for us to investigate. There was, you believe there was reason to investigate foreign ties to Charlie Kirk's murder

and were told by the FBI, DOGA? The FBI. No, you're not allowed to investigate that. Stop. It's done. Basically, they cut off our access to be able to get into that information.

“And look, I didn't even say necessarily that I believe there's a hundred percent foreign ties.”

There were data points that we needed to investigate. I mean, I think anybody who's even, you know, looked at any kind of police investigation, you get 100 leads. You're running down in 99 don't mean anything. We still had a lot more leads to run down that pertained to some kind of

inconceivable that that could happen. And again, I was aware of it from reading about it.

But not really to the extent that you've just described. So I would love to hear the justification for that. And can you flesh that out a little bit more? What were you told was the reason to prevent you as a federal intelligence official running the National Counterterrorism Center

“from looking into the murder when you had reason to look into it?”

Well, the way the bureaucracy works is they can just kill things in process. So initially, we were cut off pretty early on from being able to access like the files and to be able to send people out there. We sent people out initially to work in the task force. After the crisis period, the first week or so, that dispersed. And we basically were told that, hey, we'll get back to you if we find any kind of foreign ties, et cetera, that we want you guys to look into.

Meanwhile, we had already dug up a decent amount of leads. Again, I'm not saying anything to concrete. But we found more work that we needed to do to say that we had done our due diligence. We were then told that you guys need to stop. You can't work on this anymore. I had a bureaucratic dispute about it. Eventually, we were allowed to continue to investigate. But then, in very short order, all the requests that we would make that normally

different parts of the energy agency with the FBI being on point would facilitate

data share or data sharing is a big thing that NCTC does. Those requests were just never met.

Or, in my opinion, not an honest effort was given to fulfill those requests. It's just basic

“information that any competent police service, which I believe Utah has, and the FBI,”

that they would have access to to help us run down the leads to either confirm or deny some kind of foreign activity. So, we were cut off from that. They didn't ever officially come back and say, "You can't look at this anymore." All of their requests just continue to die on the vine with the various agencies that we needed to actually fulfill those requests. I just can't imagine a legitimate justification for that. I mean, maybe I'm missing something.

But from a non-specialist perspective, something horrible has happened. The U.S. government is its core function as to investigate crime-particularly murder. Here you have an agency who's job it is to run down the rabbit trails you've described and you're stopped from doing that. We don't want the information. Right. Why would any person engage in a legitimate pursuit say, I don't want more information? I mean, especially considering there is people posting online

prior knowledge of what was about to happen. So, a lot of the justification for stopping us from investigating hung on. Hey, we've got the guy, his fingerprints around the gut. We've got a video of him jumping off the roof. Like, this is a slam dunk case. Okay. Even if it is a slam dunk case that he took the shot, what about all the people who had prior knowledge? You know, all this

the basic investigative questions. Basically, how do you get there? You map it out. You know,

nothing. This isn't rocket science. I mean, this is anything that anyone of common sense would know to ask. But basically, once they caught him, once he turned himself in and his fingerprints around the gun, it was basically pencils down. Utah has the rest of it. There's nothing else to see here. And, you know, I'm over there thinking I'm in crazy town saying, like, no, we have all these different leads that we need to run down. Just from my perspective. Now, the people who had prior

“knowledge, I think I believe most of them were American citizens, so that would be on the FBI to”

go run down. But again, not without saying anything specific, there was more work for us to do on the potential of a foreign nexus. Again, not saying there is one, but we had more work to do, and we were blocked from doing that. I can't. My heart is bound to listen to this. I just want people listening to this to assess two things. One, are you over your skis or are you making claims you can't prove? No. Two, is there any conceivable motive, dark motive that you would have

for wanting to know more about this murder, to wanting to investigate it? And I don't think any rational person could construct a bad motive for wanting to know. It's your job. It's the government's job, and so I think the onus is on people who are preventing the collection of information to describe why they're doing that. That's the question for them. Why wouldn't you want to know? Specifically, you may not know the answer of the people who demonstrated

prior knowledge of Charlie Kirk's murder online, and there were a number of them. Are you satisfied that all of them were interviewed by the FBI in person? I have no idea. I don't know. I just think considering they knew the guy they knew Charlie was going to be assassinated, and there was enough of them that it wasn't just some random, maybe he tags every TPUSA post with that. There was enough of them that there's something there. I don't know what that's something to get. Well by definition,

but we haven't seen any arrests, so to me there's more work to be done, and because that could have

and to me I personally did not see any effort being taken to continue to run that down.

Now I'm sure they will say, "Hey, we're open to anything, we'll continue to investigate,"

“but we're coming up on several months now. Why hasn't this been done? Are you bothered by it?”

I'm very bothered by it. I'm very bothered by it. I personally did not know Charlie well, but Charlie Kirk is a generational figure. I mean, he led a movement. He was speaking to millions of young Americans who came out, who voted for President Trump, and he was just a genuine great man, husband father, I mean, how can you not like Charlie Kirk? But also the fact that he was murdered so publicly, and yes, there's there's been a lot of sympathy, and his movement has grown, et cetera,

but actual curiosity about getting to justice, to figuring out what happened that makes me furious,

that we're being blocked from that, and that we're not, we're not allowed to ask the question anymore.

We're just not allowed to talk about it anymore. And I think that's absolutely insanity, and what does that mean? What does that mean that there are people, and there's entities out there that don't want us looking into this, and I'm sure they're preparing their response right now, and they're saying, "That's because we don't want to screw up the Robinson trial." Okay, if the Robinson trial is so slam dunked, then don't worry about it. He's got his fingerprints

on the rifle, et cetera, but there was people publicly posting, they had prior knowledge of this, and I'm pure telling you, someone who's involved in the investigation, there was more stones for us to overturn, and every time we ask, we were blocked, and then they leaked a near-time, so we had to blow up,

and we had to throw them out of the room, because they're crazy, et cetera. So it's incredibly frustrating,

that there's not more, especially considering how pivotal Charlie was to the Magamu movement and to President Trump, that there hasn't been a more concerted effort to find the truth and to find justice. Do you think there will be? I pray there is. I hope this helps. I know, you know, you know, I'll probably take some black for it. I don't know why, and I doubt it'll be, I don't know why. Yeah, it's at a certain point. I've really tried out to say anything about it,

“because I don't, I don't know the answers, and but I want them to be found, because I believe in”

justice, and because I love Charlie, but I think everything you have said, maybe dismissed as crazy, or evil, tell me how. With reference to the words you've just spoken, I don't see how someone could level a legitimate attack on you, and we'll stop them. You mentioned the breaches of the president's security that had been reported. One that was reported, and I can't say whether it's true, I'm only asking to see if you know that it is true, but it's been reported that Prime Minister Net

Netton, who's security tell was caught twice by Secret Service attaching some kind of device to the president's emergency secret service emergency response vehicle. I don't know if that's true. Have you heard that? I've read it in the media. I don't know if that's true. Okay. I think the president and the vice president and several members of the cabinet going out to dinner in DC and the code pink protesters having a heads up about that to rent the table. And that's

hard to do. They had to figure out where they rent the table. They had to kind of get the restaurant on board to a certain extent. To me, that's kind of a almost like counting coup. It's a soft flex. It's a, it's a, I can touch you whenever I want. It was good. Thank you. I want anything. We know they're just going to be kind of crazy in annoying. However, what does that mean? That means you've got real problems with your security detail. And then, you know, a few weeks

later, you have an armed police officer who's off duty who's not part of the president's detail, come right up and shake the president's hand. You know, and the guy's probably patriotic American, whatever, he probably just wanted to shake the president's hand legitimately. But that got a lot of publicity, publicity, and what does that mean? You know, and the president, again, President Trump is very smart. I think President Trump has a gift for interpreting large sets of data and making

very, very key strategic decisions. And so when the president sees that he's got issues with his own security detail, when he sees what happened in Butler with the other assassination attempts, when he sees what happened with Charlie, I think it's reasonable to believe that somewhere in his head he thinks that like, maybe I don't have a choice. Maybe they could harm me or they could harm my family, and if they can't keep me safe, I believe the president deeply cares. I believe he's very

courageous. I think it was just a matter of, I'm worried about his own physical safety. I don't think he cares. We saw that in Butler, but he does love his family, and he's got a big family. And so somewhere in his head, if they can't keep me safe, what about my family? So look, maybe the president

“was just simply deceived by the echo chamber we described, and that's how we got to this place.”

But it's also there's a potential that there's an element of coercion intimidation,

If you were assessing a similar situation in another country, a country not your own,

and you as an expert on these questions, which obviously you are, I gave you the same data set you've just presented to me. And I said, would you say that's just crazy even to bring that up as a possibility? Not at all. When you map out those data points, I would just say this is this, this moves from being a possibility to potentially depending on how you look at it and interpret it, this could be a likelihood. It would be something I'm sure that we would debate rigorously,

but nobody would dismiss it all together. With all this data, it's not nothing. It's something

“that has to be looked into. Is it being looked into? Again, I don't think it is. I think that”

you're with Butler, you're investigative journalist found more about crooks than the entire government. And the response I received from the FBI was so hostile that it confused me and it still does, confused me. A lot, it confuses me a lot since I didn't approach the question with anything like that in mind. I mean, we put this documentary out. We got information, the information described. We got a lot of his online activity, which we've been told didn't exist. This was done on a

attack on the FBI. This was, of course, during the last administration with a different director. So this was hardly a partisan hit job. This is the president of the United States who I campaigned for and voted for and like and have liked for many years. It's not an attack. And the response that I got was hysterical. That's not an overstatement. And it confuses me. Do you have you had experiences like that? There was a level of, you know, just hostility coming from,

“really the FBI. And some of what I think is just like a rivalry, like why are you looking”

on a show? Yeah, I got this. Very familiar with that. I mean, with the same way in the military. So I got sure that's right. Totally. I totally get that. They were treated like you were in the Air Force, kind of things. Exactly. Like I want you to know where the FBI got you. But, you know, we had a role to play. And the way that we were aggressively blocked from that. I found the hostility to be above and beyond what you would think that you'd find with just typical, you know, rivalry,

bureaucratic rivalry, turf wars, those types of things. Some of that wasn't played. But the level of like you cannot look at this. And then for them to escalate, to attempt to get us kicked

out of the case, that to me was very surprising. Same thing with Butler. We first started asking

questions about Butler. I thought because especially that happened under the Biden administration, that, hey, we would come in and we would get the truth because, you know, the previous administration really screwed this thing up. And they're just wasn't curiosity there. There wasn't curiosity, and there wasn't a tolerance whatsoever for us going after just the key questions of like, hey, did the the the informant that you had that was interacting with this guy, Rashont,

was he in communication with anybody in Butler? I mean, basic questions to ask again. This is nothing that's going to blow any of us to get our socks off. Just those basic questions. Like, no, the two aren't related. Like, you can't talk about it. You can't ask any of those questions. Even when we found dad actually need to be looked at. Yeah, I mean, they would say at the time, like, well, the merchant case is ongoing, et cetera. Like, we can't. We can't interfere with that

“case is over. So, I mean, at this point, I don't understand. I think this is like a new rule,”

which is to say a fake rule that you're not allowed to gather information about anything that might potentially intersect with an ongoing case that's not directly related. Like, what? I think you made that up. I think that's just made up. I don't, because then how do you ever investigate anything? What law school did you go to? And I asked this question. I was like, yeah, cases have been overturned on this basis. And it's like, well, case has been overturned on many

bases, but right. How is that? Is this like the new standard? Because you would not be able to investigate anything. Right. Exactly. We want to get to the truth. So, what is that for those of us falling along at home who don't have a high level of familiarity with the process? What could that possibly be? The current president was the subject of a near successful assassination attempt, like recently. Yeah. And we're just not going to look into very obviously it's or devolge

information that everyone knows they have. For example, this surveillance tape from the shooting range at which Thomas Crook's trained, because we would answer the question, was he training with somebody? And if so, who? They have that footage and they won't release it. What could possibly be the explanation for that? I know what the result is. The result is people come to their own conclusions. And this is where like crazy conspiracy theories come from. And then this conspiracy

theories use their easy to debunk or make the people saying them sound crazy. So then the actual

question never gets answered. Right. Sorry. Can you say that for people who haven't lived

in Washington? Okay. I try to explain this to people all the time, because this has been on

It's a tactic. And you just explained it better than anyone ever heard. Can you just do that again

“if you can recall it? Yeah. I mean, so basically you give no information whatsoever. On something”

that's obvious that there should be information. Right. You outlined like there's potentially footage. Yep. Of crooks at the shooting range. Again, police 101, go get the tapes. Let's figure it out. If you don't want to address that question, then you just, you go silent. You say you can't ask that question. Which then creates people who come out at a kind of nowhere and they start drawing their own conclusions. Right. Knowing the way the internet works. I mean, half of them,

if not more, are probably going to be so far off and left field and made by legitimate cooks or bots that then you can just be like, oh, these people ask these questions about that tape at the video range. It's space alien. It's crazy conspiracy theorists. They say it's a UAP or whatever. And so then you've just, you know, diverted all attention away from the thing that you're trying to

conceal and now everyone's focused on the crazies. And then the second someone asks a legitimate

question, they're crazy. I hope everyone watching will just clip that tape and keep it on your phone and replay it every day because that is one of the primary ways that the intelligence season federal law enforcement influence public opinion, influence elections. That's the way the influence the perception of what's going on. But more than anything, it's the way that they hide their own behavior from the public. Yeah. So at the beginning of the administration, I think it was

October, the rather it was January 23rd. It was like right after the inauguration. The President issued an executive order calling for the total declassification, release of all documents relevant to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, November 1963, all of them. And also,

documents relevant to the assassination investigation into Martin Luther King and Robert F. Kennedy,

the Attorney General. I don't think all the Kennedy documents have been released. Have they?

“They were supposed to be. I mean, that was the President's order. That's what was in the executive order.”

It's the law. It's the President. The President said it and is in the executive order. Maybe you can't go there because. So yeah. So I just want to say again, and not from you, I have been told conclusively that that is not happened. So without divulging anything that's classified, like anything from 1963 should be classified. The whole thing is insane and an insult to citizens. I'm a middle-aged man. I wasn't even born then. It was six years before I was born and

they're telling me I can't see it. Okay. It's infuriating and it's the end of democracy. But what could possibly be the justification for keeping classified, a document that must under lobby released and that was produced. Generations ago. Yeah. I think more of this goes to the deep state, the system, the machine, whatever everyone calls it. They're not hiding something in the Kennedy files in my opinion because, you know,

it's not like they, the assassins wrote down on this day when it killed JFK. And they put it in a file. Let's see. Yeah. Yeah. That didn't happen. So I don't really think there's anything that's in, in particularly, you know, would be earth shattering inside the files themselves. The system doesn't want to get us used to things being rapidly declassified. They don't want a president to be able to come in and say, here's an executive order and I said,

declassify it because the people demand it and it happens like that as fast as it could happen. They don't want that to happen. They want to condition us that like, okay, the president of the American people elected, he may have, you know, come in and lawfully give them a son order. But there's a process here. There's an interagency process. Everyone gets to check to make sure there's nothing still classified or still ongoing, even if it was from 1963 or even further back. Because again,

they don't want us condition to weaken just have access to this information.

“And I think there's probably times where that would be appropriate. Like something declassifying”

something that happened last week, for instance. Yeah, there's going to be equities there. And I think the American people would understand that. I agree. But a lot of this, I think it's power. And so the bureaucracy, when the president says declassify this, regardless of what it is, from decades ago, they can't just let them have it. They all want to have their cuts on it. They want to be able to control it. And this is the way like the bureaucracy and the

career bureaucrats role. And they just tell the new political appointees, like, hey, we just, you know, we really can't do that. But we'll get us to a place that mostly, we'll get you what you want eventually. And then it all just gets killed off at process. And there's literally no transparency at the end of the day. Or limits the transparency. But that's where I think the game is here. They don't want to condition us that you can elect a president. And he can automatically change

the bureaucracy. I mean, this fact, the fact that the government doesn't have to tell you what it's

Like, how can you give consent to something? You don't know nothing about it. Yeah. Right. But more than that, it creates a moral poison that the center of this society, lying is a sin. It's the core sin. And lies, but get lies. And they like cancer, destroy the body in which they live. Yeah. And if you care about the body, this country, if you're from here and you hope to live here and have grandchildren here, you have to fix that. And I really think that telling the truth,

“radically telling the truth is the only thing that gets you there. And the pain that that entails”

and it doesn't tell pain, there's no doubt about it in humiliation, is much smaller a price to pay than the price that we will pay inevitably and maybe soon if we don't do it. I don't think this is sustainable, this level of lying in any society. No. And if people don't think that they're vote matters, that they can actually elect someone and change can be enacted. I think things go to a very dark place. Of course. And people lose faith in our system. There are systems based on

that faith that we get to have these elections in theory. Hopefully you'd hope the elections are

free and fair. We've got a lot of issues there as well. But when you finally get your person in

office, that they're going to be able to control the government, that the people pay for, that are supposed to be a ram of the folks that they voted for, that they'll actually get their will implemented or at least what's in the best interest for them implemented. That's right. And that's not the case right now. No, it's not. So I want to end with a hopeful note. So we've been talking about this for 24 hours because I think that without even getting into it,

anyone who's followed it carefully in as thinking clearly can see that the war with the run is potentially like the end of a lot for the United States. I mean, I don't think we could overstate the consequences of this. And I don't think I'm being hysterical. I've had three

“extra think about it. I've actually had ten years to think about it because that's how long they”

would push and for it. And so at this point, it feels like there's no way out. But you were saying to me this morning in a really thoughtful way that gave me hope that you think there is a way out. And so I'm going to stand back and let you explain how you think that the United States can exit with a lot of its interest in tact. And that's honor and tact. And the president's administration

in tact because the political cost of this is shocking. I mean, it's not the most important thing but

like right now it's all very broken. Okay. What's the answer? It's going to take drastic action. And the good news is I believe that this is something that President Trump is uniquely qualified to fix on his own through his sheer willpower. President Trump has an amazing ability. It's almost his superpower, I think, to be able to kind of breathe life into ideas. And again, to capture large data sets and to find leverage. And right now, it's clear that this conflict will just

continue the way it is and get exponentially worse, especially if we go down the path of demanding a total surrender with boots on the ground or maybe even something far worse. What President Trump did? And that is the path for that. I mean inevitably. If we say it's total surrender, what does total surrender mean? Now again, this is where President Trump is uniquely suited. President Trump can define his own total surrender. He's in charge. I ended my letter with, you know,

you hold the cards because President Trump truly does hold the cards. He's a very powerful

“very respected leader. And what I think President Trump must do is number one, he has to address the”

man issue. The main issue is what the Israelis are doing. And he needs to very forcefully and probably with a new team of diplomats go to the Israelis and say, you're done. We will we will defend you. We will make sure that, you know, ballistic missiles aren't rained out upon you. However, you were done going on the offense because this is our war, war paying for it, we're bleeding for it. This is not your war. If you choose to continue this offensive operation,

we're out. And as a matter of fact, if you choose to continue, we will start with drawing features of your defense system so that you will be on your own. We have to say that to them and we have to be very blunt and we have to be very forceful. And I know a lot of people who like the Israelis are going to say, we can't do that. That's wrong, they're under fire, etc. But if we don't do that, if we don't address our relationship with the Israelis, even if we come with a temporary ceasefire,

we'll be right back in the same situation in very short order. So that's the first thing that President Trump must do. Address the main issue. The main issue is how the Israelis are out of control and they are driving this entire war. Address that aggressively, get the Israelis to stop. How realistically, just having lived through this whole thing, how hard will that be? It will be hard, but again, President Trump can do it. President Trump can call the Prime

I truly believe that he can. So I think it's the only deal with President Trump. And then from there, once we get the Israelis to stop, we still, for now, have strong allies in the Gulf. We have the MRIs, the Qataris, the Saudis, the Bahrainis, all these actors, the Amanis, they may not

“always agree with each other, but they're all pretty good partners with us. I think we need to use”

them. And again, I think we probably need to bring in some new diplomats and we need to aggressively engage with Iranians while we can to get to ACs fire and to come up with a way that we can stop the killing. We can stop the destruction of not just these countries, not just the loss of more life,

but basically the collapse of the energy system that we have right now so that we can open the

streets of Hormuz back up again and so that we can make sure the Petro dollar is being used. Because right now, we didn't stop the flow of oil going to the, you know, the Chinese, the Chinese are still getting their oil out. And they're settling those transactions that you want, not the Petro dollar. So we have to, once we get these really to stop, we have to aggressively pursue our economic interests. And I think the only good thing in here is that our economic interests are in line with,

not just the GCC countries, but also with Iranians. Because the Iranians, what this war to stop, they want to be able to rebuild their energy sector. They want to be able to revitalize their energy sector. And on this mutual cooperation to open up the Straits of Hormuz and to build back the energy

“sector, I think we could come up with a piece. Let's give you that. We have to lift some sanctions.”

We have to lift some sanctions. Yeah. And why wouldn't we? We've had sanctions for decades

and according to the Neocons, they had no effect on the nuclear program which posted him in threats. So like, what is the argument? We've had sanctions for decades. And I don't see how we benefited from that at all. We didn't. I mean, we just lifted sanctions on Syria because the regime changed there, but we lifted sanctions on a guy used to be the former leader of Al-Qaeda. Right. So because he's probably true. So I'm pretty sure we can go ahead and lift some sanctions. If it would be

in our benefit to lift the sanctions, we could not only would it help us in the war, but also a condition of lifting the sanctions would be you will settle all transactions that you're going to get from your new oil industry that will be reintroduced to the world of economy, you'll settle that in the dollar. And we need the dollar to survive if we want our country and its current state to survive as well. So the lifting of sanctions in this case very much works out in our national interest.

That to me, and I'm sure there's lots of different variations we could have of this plan,

but President Trump aggressively enacting this and addressing the Israeli's first and foremost,

otherwise any kind of negotiation we tried to have with the Iranians or pretty much anybody else. If we don't address the Israeli factor, they're simply not going to take us seriously. Why would the precisely? Why would they? And every day this goes on again, the more and I know love for anybody in power and I ran right now, but the more of the people that we can more the leaders we kill in Iran, you're not getting a Thomas Jefferson next. It's not like if we kill 15 or 20 of them, the

16th or the 21st guy is Thomas Jefferson or he's a moderate. Absolutely not. It's very obvious to me that some of these strikes on all, but some were conducted with the intent of making a negotiated settlement impossible. And that leads me to the saddest thing, you know, whole cluster of sad things, but the saddest thing is the bombing of the girl school attached to the Iranian naval base and the U.S. has admitted we did it, but I'm wondering about the targeting

coordinates and where those came from, is it possible that those came from Israel? That I don't know.

“Are you aware of, has it been publicly reported or in previous conflicts?”

Can you say anything that you're not constrained by? Is it possible that could have happened? I mean, have there been strikes, American strikes on targets in the past that you're aware of that have used coordinates supplied by Israel? Yeah, and we share so much intelligence, was there with it? Right, of course. So it's entirely possible, but no one has said anything about it, but it's entirely possible that the coordinates were given to us by Israel. And why wouldn't they be? Because once you

start doing things like that, it's intentionally or not. It's very hard to get out of it. And obviously, from the way the Israelis have conducted themselves in the Gaza war, in other places, they have a much different way of fighting than we do. I mean, America definitely makes mistakes, and we do everything that we can. I can tell you is a guy who fought on the ground. Americans, almost to a fault sometimes, we do everything that we can

to prevent the loss of civilian life. I mean, almost the point where sometimes we risk our own lives,

being in partnership with a quote's partner that has very different, at a very different agenda

than you and a state of outcome, but then also just a different standard for how they fight. It's very dangerous. It's very dangerous for us to be in partnership with a country that has different goals and different standards that behave around the battlefield. In different ways, means they just have a whole different way of life. So how would you describe the Israeli attitude toward the killing of innocence? Look, the Israelis are in a hard spot. And as somebody who fought

for most of my life, I think I can get in their heads pretty easily. If I wasn't Israeli, I think I would have the same view. I think I would say like, well, we're going to fight

them at some point anyways if there's civilians in that area that's militarily important to us,

whatever. Like, I have a job to do. I understand that, but it's also important for us to understand our air quotes partners. If we're going to be in a partnership with them, we have to be clear out about that just because they speak English and a lot of them went to school over here and we have dual citizens, doesn't mean that they're going to target the same way that we do. We have to

“be clear out about it. And that's what I think is missing. If we're going to need to join”

operations with the Israelis, they are going to look, we saw what happened in Gaza. And you can say that's a horrible thing. You can say that's just the way it is, but that is the way the Israeli's fight. And so we have to go into that clear with clear eyes and understand that's how they're going to fight. And now we're going to be viewed as being not just complicit, but we're going to be viewed as being partners in that. And again, that's a very dangerous place for us to be because

our, at least our tactical objectives have been pretty clear that we want to take down the ballistic missiles and you can program the Navy, the Army, etc. And those are military targets. But we're in partnership right now with the Israelis who they're going to have to sum the military targets, but they're going after a heck a lot more that are not military targets. It's a very generous assessment of their motives. And I mean, that's a compliment. I strongly disagree with you,

but that I didn't spend my life putting wars and you're making every attempt to get into their

“perspective, even if you disagree with it, which I assume you do. And I think that is the way”

to assess things. It's like, what's the other guy's perspective, even if I hate it? Well, yeah, and look in the middle east, you're going to do business with the unsavory characters. In the world, you're going to do business with some unsavory characters. So if you're going to be doing business there, just get comfortable with the fact that some of these guys are unsavory. I mean, the classic, I think, President Trump line really early on when he was asked like if

he thought Putin was a killer. And he's like, well, yeah, I mean, we're killers, too. You know what? I mean, he was just very logical about that. And very clear I about that. Again, this is why President Trump is uniquely qualified to solve this problem. Because I think he has the ability to understand things from multiple perspectives at the same time and then find our leverage and then find out

“what's best for our objectives for America's objectives with clear eyes. And that's what we have to be.”

Do you anticipate you'll be speaking to the President again? I would welcome it. I mean, I spoke with him before I departed the administration. How did that go? It went great. I mean, not the best conversation ever. You know, I told him why I was leaving. He heard me out. He was very

respectful. He was, yeah, very respectful. He was very kind. He always is. And I think we departed

personally on good terms. Again, I'm going to I'm going to don't understand the way I left and writing the letter that there's parts of his administration that are going to have to come after me and trying to spread it. I understand that. But I think the President is someone who listens. And so I think he's listening not necessarily just to me and to you. But I think he is listening to a lot of different people because I think he knows at a core level. This is not going well and he needs to find

away for us to get out of this. We are definitely an adult. And I wish there are more of them. And I appreciate all the time you spent here. Thank you. Thank you, Ducker. Thank you, Joe. Okay. Thank you for watching. We'll see you next Wednesday. Thanks for watching the Wednesday edition of the show. We stream live every week. Wednesday 6 p.m. Eastern on TuckerCurlson.com. Members can watch the show live join the members only chat and take

part in the conversation in real time. We're grateful to be doing it and grateful that you watch it. Thank you.