2. In Your Mind’s Eye

We got set up, I think, in less than a day.

With very little effort, we could just focus on the supply chain to the product development. Shopify gives us the ability to customize without the complexity. We can change something without introducing fragility or having to pay a developer. We're thirsty total, and we leveled up our business with Shopify. Start your free trial at Shopify.com/AU.

Yet the cheeset. A lawyer can't forget that he has the ability to buy a cheeset. But he has his own partner. That's better. He can't see a guy testing.

He wants to have a cheeset. Cheeset. Yes, cheeset. Yet the guy testing.

That's what we're talking about.

“Coffee and Casembaugh are the most important things in the world.”

But it's just a matter of time. Time to find a way to change the value of a cheeset. Can you describe to me what it's like to be the person who's being hypnotized or... What's it like to be hypnotized? You only get hypnotized in two minutes.

Chef. Do you? Yeah? I'm not going to let you walk there. I do want to.

Okay. All right. You're listening to a conversation I had recently with Mark's Howell, a former detective with the Texas Department of Public Safety. He actually helped develop the hypnosis policy that the state police used for decades.

He started using hypnosis investigations back in 1979. He's now 87 years old and semi-retired. He met me at a public library to talk about investigative hypnosis. It's a part of the story about Charles Flores' death row case that gets a lot of attention. People like the prosecution and former strange PD say it maybe gets too much attention.

But it is part of the story and I wanted to make sure I understood how it works. So, what can do with this? And you cover it out there 'cause you don't like to use your lips. Well, I don't have much shame, I'm going to be honest. Sit tight, Michelle's about to get hypnotized.

From free-range productions and the Texas Observer, this is season 5 of the Unforgotten, Writing Shotgun, and your host, Michelle Pitcher. Nine West Ferguson. This is episode 2 in your mind's eye. So, the investigator and hypnotist Mark's Howell sits you down in a chair and he gives you

non-verbal cues. Where's this happening? We are at a public library where in a study room and it's kind of a funny setting for this. There's a whole glass wall where everyone on the floor can see into it.

It's not sound proof or anything like that.

So, we're basically in a very visible, a mini stage if you're really paranoid about

everyone looking at you, but it certainly wasn't a private location.

“Are there a lot of people watching wondering who's in here and what are they doing?”

Yes, so the study rooms at this particular library are very competitive. So, a lot of people were glaring at me that I got the reservation in the first place. Who's this blissed out woman just being hypnotized when we need a place to study? I know, they were like, "There's absolutely no way that this is for work." So, he holds up my fingers to draw my gaze up and then he has me close my eyes.

He moves my arms around until they feel heavy and then he lets them drop. He asks me to think about a happy childhood memory. He wants to see what people around him can be clear, you can enjoy all the happy sensations that are placed to be prepared. And he might even be able to feel what you're wearing and what's cool and what's the current. My mind does flip back to a memory whenever I call it a bunch of times.

And, you know, at this point, who knows if it's even accurate, but it's me and my siblings sitting in my childhood home, singing a song to the camera, my mom's recording, and it's friends in the places, a classic. And it's interesting because, in my memory, I'm kind of looking at us through the camera. So, something tells me that at some point I saw this video, and my memory of it has been informed by that. Yeah, you're having a memory of your memory.

“I think I'm having a memory of my memory, or I know I'm having a memory of my memory.”

And, he just told me to think of something uncomplicated, something happy, and that moment came up. And, like I said, I thought of it a lot before, so it's well-trod ground. And relax as I think about it, I feel almost drowsy, kind of like the moment right before you drift off to sleep, but you catch yourself and pull back. But when Mark's asked me to describe the details of the scene, I really can't do it.

I feel myself wanting to, though. He asks me to describe the couch, so I start thinking about pictures that I've seen of the room,

Overall, the memory doesn't feel much clearer to me than it ever had before.

“It did challenge my existing perception of hypnosis, though.”

I've seen the scenes mostly in my Saturday cartoons of people using hypnosis to take over someone's consciousness. They're usually using it to control the other person, to make them do their bidding or roll them into a trance. Like the Python from the Jungle Book, who uses his eyes to mesmerize his prey before he goes in for the kill. I looked at videos of those uber charismatic guys who get up on stage at schools or work conferences

and perform hypnosis on big groups for the entertainment value. They'll have people strut around like their supermodels, dance with an invisible partner.

Basically make the hypnotized folks behave in ways that we'd normally find embarrassing.

Quite like a duck and all that. Actually for the hypnotized volunteer, I want you to realize in a few seconds, you've all become exotic animals with your choice. The bi-exotic animal, I mean exotic animal, you might find in the zoo, but you might find on safari, and the more you relax,

you'll embed the posture of position, the stance of the exotic animal of your choice. You do the actions, the motions, the stance is of that exotic animal, with your eyes closed on three, one, two, three becoming exotic animal. What are you controlling? What are you controlling?

So the animals of your choice, and the more you allow for leave yourself to be animal for more you relax. And freeze, I don't matter, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

“Hey brother, what you doing, man? What are you doing down there?”

And as the viewer you're supposed to think, well, what self-respecting high schooler would be up there, making a fool of themselves on stage, but what I actually asked Marx about this, and he said that hypnosis in these cases just gives you permission to act, that way you'd normally want to, but you know better, so it's a way for a lot of people to

let a side of themselves show, shake off a little bit of inhibition, and act like a fool every now and then. They won't should believe that your result out in the world may not even know what the hell's going on. And you're not zone out. It's nothing more than a state of relaxation. This idea that hypnosis's mind control is deeply embedded in American culture. Sven Goli was a hypnotist character in a book from 1894.

Now we use the word to mean someone who's manipulative. Hypnosis is in our cartoons, our comic books, our horror films. We seem to relish the fear that it's possible in the real world to lose control of yourself through hypnosis. It sounds like you would disagree with the idea that hypnosis is a dramatically different state of consciousness. Hello little Roger the answer to that question,

but if it's obviously a different state of consciousness from what defense attorneys won't truly believe it is. For more than 40 years, investigative hypnosis was widespread in Texas, especially compared to other U.S. states. The Texas Department of Public Safety was using investigative hypnosis actively until 2021. So it was pretty common and in 2023 in Texas, the state legislature actually outlawed it.

So now it is no longer in use, but nearly 2,000 cases, hundreds of officers over four decades. Yeah, you reported that more than 800 officers got certified over that 40-year span. And hypnosis was used in nearly 2,000 cases, and that's just in Texas. Yeah, and that actually is from what was a bit of a bombshell report in the Dallas Morning News, where they investigated the Department of Public Safety's use of

investigative hypnosis, and they focused on cases where it clearly went wrong. Clearly the outcome was not helped by using investigative hypnosis, and that article that

investigation actually led to the change in policy and ultimately the change in the law.

Proponents like Mark say it's just another tool officers can use in interviews and interrogations. It can help people overcome mental blocks that are affecting their memories. There's a lot of definitions about hypnosis, and nobody can agree on one of them, but I'll tell you the way I see hypnosis is nothing more than relaxation. In a relaxed state, it's why we use it because it helps people remember more inflammation.

“Example of that is, if you've ever been talking to the friend of yours, do you have any friends?”

I do, I have what I do. Well, and so, if you've ever had a conversation with a friend of yours,

and you couldn't think of it the hardy you tried to hardy it was, and when you go off and start doing something else, well then what happens, pops in the conscious way. So the way I see this thing is you put the relaxation and you sort of disassociate the person from the effort of trying

“to remember, and then it pops into the brain.”

Mark's eventually brought me out of hypnosis using a method similar to the way a yoga class ends. My eyes were still closed, and he told me to let myself do nothing. Then over time, to start to focus a little bit more, the technique Mark's used on me was different from the one investigators he's done Jill back in 1998, but both come from the same playbook. After the break, police hypnotized their key witness in the murder case against Charles Flores.

With summer in Texas right around the corner, I've been thinking a lot about my wardrobe. How do I stay cool while also looking cute? Wearing linen dresses in the summer time has become my whole personality, so I was really excited to pick up another dress from Quince, specifically the

fit and flare midi dress, and I can't wait to wear it. The weather is turning warmer by the second,

and it looks cute, I feel great, and it just feels nice to wear high quality fabrics when the weather is hot. Quince also has lightweight linen pants, dresses and tops that start at $30, and they are effortless, breathable, and easy to wear on repeat. Refresh your every day with luxury you'll actually use, head to quince.com/unforgotten for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's quai nce.com/unforgotten for free shipping and

365 day returns. Quince.com/unforgotten. It's something out of a horror movie because you see you're going in and you want to tell her don't go, because you know what's going to happen. In 2016, the killing of Missy Beavers shook the Dallas metro area. Police are trying to figure out why somebody dressed as a police officer ambushed and murdered a fitness instructor mother and fitness trainer Terry Missy Beavers was murdered inside a middle-of-the-in church. She was a

great woman, a great wife, a great mother, a great friend. Security cameras at the church captured Missy's murder in terrifying detail. But 10 years later, police still don't have a suspect. Rumors are flying, and people are still demanding answers. I don't give a craft if she got 15 affairs with 15 different men that is not an open invitation to murder someone.

“Somebody needs to hide for it. This is the unforgotten. Who killed Missy Beavers?”

Listen wherever you get your podcasts. On February 4, 1998, Jill Bargainier goes to the Farmer's Branch Police Department to undergo hypnosis. She's the best witness police have from the morning of January 29th when two men

had driven up to her neighbor's house to commit a robbery, an ultimately a murder.

She'd live next door to Bill and Betty Black, the victim for 15 years, and she was eager to help. And our witness will be Jill Hiker of the Farmer's Branch Police Department here, Jill Bargainier. So, come in. Who's ideal was it to hypnotize her? Jill actually requested the hypnosis herself. She'd heard about it somehow and thought that that would be a good way for her to

“relax and potentially remember more about what she saw to her window. There was one police officer”

named Ron Sarna and he had been certified a couple years before after taking a 40-hour course at the University of Houston in investigative hypnosis technique. So, he had gotten the certificate,

he'd never used it. This was his first time trying to hypnotize somebody. This was his first time

trying to hypnotize somebody. So, this was a fairly green officer. He had actually been at the crime scene helping collect evidence that day and then he got tapped to perform the investigative hypnosis on Jill on February 4th. And this is all on tape. So, we're actually hearing Jill being hypnotized. Yes, this is all on tape and that's actually one of the best practices about investigative hypnosis is the whole thing they say from hello to goodbye is supposed to be on tape

because as you might expect these interviews, even when they were common, we're pretty highly scrutinized by juries, by appeals lawyers. And so there were a lot of best practices that were put into place that if you kind of checked all these boxes, it was more likely that a judge would

Serena starts by asking Jill what she remembers seeing out of her window that morning.

In first thing, I remember is when I looked out the window and I saw a car pull up into the

driveway. I remember it was the VW bug and I remember seeing two guys get out. I remember the passenger getting out and I distinctly remember his hair and then he stood up as he got out and then he turned back and got a bottle out of the car and just took a quick drink and put it back in a dorm of her thinking that it looked a lot like a fake beer bottle and then that is kind of passed that off as my imagination knew that they just pulled up and acted like they belong.

A note, here she says she saw the passenger holding a beer bottle, but this seems to just be a mistake in all other cases she says it was the driver who had the beer. And I remember looking at the passenger as he got out and remember in his dark hair, but basically the same is the driver's and then he turned and looked directly in the direction that I was looking but not like he was

“looking at me and I think he closed the door and they both started walking and that's when I”

closed the door. After this, Cernis starts the long process of putting Jill under hypnosis. He has her close rise while he counts down from 100. He has her imagine that her fingers are glued

together and that they won't come apart until he snaps fingers. He has her first visualized a tall building

and then an elevator. He has her descend in the elevator to a movie theater where she'll be able to sit back and rewatch what she saw that morning. She even has her remote where she can stop, pause and fast forward. The movie will be of the day first day in January, 29th, the movie starts in the morning. You know this day because it's a very important day for you. It's an important day of significance today in which she witnessed something very important.

Jill starts speaking very quietly at this point. She's also stopped fidgeting in her chair. She says she's looking out the window and sees the bug. She's referring here to the Volkswagen Beetle in Betty Black's driveway. She says it's pink with little purple waves painted on the bottom. He asks her about the driver first. She'll be spotting saying, "Well, long. That one."

“And his hair is short and they're saying, "You've been neat with Clyde?"”

We have a painting. Where are you now? She says the driver's hair is long and dirty.

He homes in on some other details. We're making it stand out about its comb. Did you see it? Oh, yeah. In the morning, I'm going to ask you to calm down a little further. What I'm looking at once the lower part of the body is lens and it's deep.

We're very good to visualise and then we're seeing from the stand out to me so that you can call. Which is so nice. Why do you think you could have drink? Can you tell us what we were talking about here? Can you tell us what we were talking about here?

Did Brown there, Bob? Where is he? So early in the morning.

“Where are you just about? We'll put it back.”

Then, Serna asks Jill to focus on the passenger. Again, he asks about his hair. About like his friends. When you say like his friend, do you mean... Do you?

Well... Can you see the color? Dark. Not black. Not all black. Like dark brown. Not a solid black. Can you tell how long was Harry? Did he have the need to cut into the trunk?

I see it to his shoulders. She says the passenger's hair is a lot like his friends, but dark brown. Long, down to his shoulders. Is everything about his face that he could tell? It turns. That's it.

Did you have any time to cool this? You saw it? Down, he has brown eyes. The hypnosis session doesn't uncover any new explosive information. Jill says she felt like she could see the scene a lot better, but there are still certain

parts she's unsure about. I don't remember the world. Now it seems like he picked something up. Because oftentimes, like I told you before I brought you out,

Things that might not even have to do with the actual incident itself. You might be doing it in a really short and something might come to you about that incident or about anything else. It's almost a phenomenal way to happen like this. I asked Marks what he thought about Jill's hypnosis session.

He'd reviewed the whole thing. It was his one and only hypnosis session he had ever conducted. And I'm going to say he did a pretty decent job of it.

“Is there some things that I would have done different?”

Yes, not a lot, but yes. There is because I've been down this road right here. I also reached out to Jill, an officer, Serna. Jill didn't respond, which I understand. She's been asked to live in that moment for so long.

Officer Serna said he doesn't comment on his past cases. Regardless, the hour Jill Bargainier spent with the farmers branch police hypnotist will loom over the case in the years to come. But for now, investigators seem no closer to an answer. A lot of people have been interested in Charles Flores's case over the years.

This includes people who study the science of memory and how it's used in our criminal justice system.

Memories are tricky, but that's not always easy for people to grasp

when justice is on the line.

“You have to understand what science says.”

I don't care what science helps. It probably sounds like I'm just trying to make myself sound good, but I'm not. And literally that the science is way more interesting than how prosecutors end up in the attorney's think about memory.

The truth is way more interesting than that. That's John Wickstead. He's an expert in memories. My name is John Wickstead. I'm a professor at the University of California, San Diego. My current title is Distinguished Professor. I've been there for a long time. I've done work on the basic mechanisms of memory.

Like the first 20 years of my career were focused on that cognitive models of memory,

the neuroscience of memory, that sort of thing nothing about memory in the real world. But then about 13 or 14 years ago, I started getting involved in memory in the real world. Then bringing that basic science perspective to bear on the question of I witness memory. Forensic experts have known for years that I witness memories can be flawed. More than 1200 people have been exonerated in the U.S. after being convicted based on a mistaken

witness ID. Many more had their convictions overturned because of perjury or false accusations. There are countless incentives for witnesses to lie to police, to protect themselves or others to get reward money or out of fear that they'll put themselves in harm's way. But even those eyewitnesses who are doing their best to be truthful can be wrong. Our memories degrade, they change and are confident in what we recall has very little to do with accuracy.

The complexity of memory is mind boggling most people don't understand but it is. Wixtead's current professional obsession is directly related to the case against Charles Flores.

His research has shown that not only is the first recollection of something the most accurate,

but it can reliably point to guilt or innocence. He'll explain more. The basic idea is that that's where you get the most reliable information, right? That's before, much forgetting has happened before, much contamination, memory contamination has happened. That's where you get the most reliable information. And then, and here's the kicker, stop asking them.

Basically, test a witness's memory only once because even that test change, it doesn't leave their memory the way it was, it changes their memory, especially for the people in the line up. And, you know, so that suspects innocent, you just put that face in that witness's brain. You know, you can't fairly test their memory again and get more reliable information. You can unfairly test it again and get less reliable information.

This is a relatively new point in the science of eyewitness testimony, which previously cast out on memory's place in the courtroom. Before that, it was just, you know, eyewitness memories unreliable. Don't listen to eyewitnesses. No distinction between the first test, early in the police investigation, and the last test at trial one, two or three years later. No distinction about that. Just eyewitness memories

like sending innocent people to prison. It's unreliable. Let me tell you the thousand ways that

“eyewitness memories unreliable. That's what the message was previously. And the new message,”

wherever you look, is it's important to draw a distinction between the first test and the last test because the first test is minimizes forgetting and contamination? In criminal cases, that last test is often on the witness stand. And the way I would say it is on that first test, there's a diagnostic memory signal in the witness's brain. One that can help the prosecution or the defense, just like DNA can help the prosecution or defense. So can fingerprint-soaked memories,

it's more reliable than we previously thought. And it can port in the direction of guilt or innocence.

“So he says the best information investigators got from Jill Bargainier came from the very first”

questions they asked. Two white guys, long hair. The thing is, that's not what you recalled in the months and years after. We'll get into that later. But to Wicksted, Jill's early statements point in the direction of Charles Flores' innocence. Memories get even more complicated when our motions get involved. This is what Holly Bowen focuses on. She's an associate professor of psychology at SMU. So what we know about memory and in what situations it can be kind of contaminated or interfered

with. So we know that memory is not just, you know, this video recording of everything that happens. And you just play it back. It is actually, you know, this reconstructive process where you are kind of paving things back together and sometimes in certain circumstances, we know that, you know, those pieces can be interfered with or new information can be brought in or wrong information can

“be brought into pending on what has happened, you know, and times that you have retrieved that memory”

in half. Take what Jill said about the VW bug that Rick Child stroved to Bergen Lane,

which you heard about in the first episode. Jill described in the hypnosis session a pink and

purple car, but that's different from what she told police she saw on the morning of the murder. That day, she described the car as pink and yellow. But in the days between the crime and her obnosis, the Dallas morning news had run a description of the car, saying it was pink and purple. It seems possible Jill's memory of that morning was already starting to shift based on the new information she was getting. Like Rick said, memory is complex and investigators have to decide

when to trust someone's memory and when to disregard it. Okay. Well, in this case, they decided to disregard Jill's memory instead of trusting it. Yeah. She said, it's a white guy with shoulder length hair. Okay. And then they hypnotized her and the whole hypnosis session she sticks by that story. After that hypnosis session, she makes a composite sketch. It's still a white guy with shoulder length hair. But when police showed her a new lineup, they didn't include any men who fit the

description she gave. Instead, it's all Hispanic men bald or with short crop hair. Charles

Flores' picture is number two. A cardinal rule science-based rule since 1980 it was there in the first

consensus statement is everyone in the lineup should match the witnesses' description of the perpetrator. That's a fair lineup. That recommendation first came out in 1998 and it's been an every consensus statement ever since. Now why? Why should everyone in the lineup match the witnesses' memory of a perpetrator? Well, one reason is the witness just told you what's in her memory. Right? And like it doesn't make sense to put faces that don't match that description. I mean,

“she might be right. She might be wrong. But that's what's in her memory and she's telling it to you.”

There's not a different face in her memory. Not yet. Anyway. Last time you heard from Jeff Ashebranner, who was a sergeant with the narcotics department back in 1998. He said that they got Charles Flores' picture from the Irving Police when they asked about the identity of someone nicknamed Fat Charlie. Narcotics officers showed the homicide detectives as picture and Ashebranner said

that they bulked at first. It didn't match up with what neighbors said they saw and Joe wasn't the

only one who caught a glimpse that morning. Michelle Babler was running late the morning of January 29. Her two sons were already waiting in the car when she hurried out of the house around 7.35 a.m. As she clicked her baby into the car seat, she saw a multicolored VW bug pull up in front of her neighbor's house across the street. She told police that two white men got out, but her physical descriptions of them were generic. No mentions of whether they had long hair

or bald or fat or thin or anything like that. She told police one of the men looked like he was wearing tan coveralls like a painter would wear. Her eight-year-old sons were waiting for their mom in the car. They said that they also saw the men. One said that they were wearing black clothes and had gloves on. The other told police that driver was wearing all black and the passenger had brown hair. They didn't linger. Michelle Babler drove her kids to their elementary school a couple

towns over in Koppel where I actually grew up, but I didn't know the family. All right, that's witness Michelle Babler and her kids. Now let's go back to the witness you've heard the most about so far, Jill Bargainier. Now her husband enters the picture. Jill Bargainier, the hypnotized neighbor, had a husband named Robert. He was on his way out the door around that time too, 725 or 735. He heard a big thud from next door. He said he assumed Bill was

and shouted Bill's name, but he didn't get a reply. That's when he noticed the VW bug in the driveway.

He didn't see the man. Jill saw the bug pull up that morning at 645. But Michelle Babler saw the bug pull up around 730. Maybe a little after. So that's obviously quite a difference especially because one of them would have been before sunrise. So it's questionable how you could have seen if you're standing in the house with all the lights on. You look out the window. If it's dark outside, you're going to see your reflection back. So that has been an unanswered question this entire time

about why those times don't align. There was one suggestion at the end of trial that maybe the men left and came back and that's the only thing that was offered. So there are a ton of

tiny discrepancies in the neighbor stories that just they make the picture a little uncomfortable. It just

doesn't all fit together. So it's hard because we like the police are left kind of having to pick and choose what we think is most credible and compelling, what we choose to believe. Are there any explanations for these little discrepancies? No, in the absence of physical or DNA evidence. It's not just a he said he said he said he said he said he said there's a he said it's so many

“players saying so many things and it's really hard to reconcile all of it and I think that that's why”

people have so many opinions on this because we're all picking and choosing different things to think are important or credible. It's why Charles is on death row and why we're still talking about it.

Maybe the passenger was wearing tan coveralls and a black coat. So Michelle Bebler and her son's

story don't contradict each other. Or maybe the quirks of memory let each person to recall a slightly different version of the same event. Remember, after her hypnosis interview, Jill Bargainier still didn't pick Charles' flora as out of the lineup, but police issued a warrant for his arrest two days later anyway. Some other leads had convinced them that, despite the discrepancies and what Bebler's neighbors remembered, Charles' flora was their guy. For one thing, he had the bug.

Here's Charles' flora as talking to Michelle. She went to see him in prison where he's been held in solitary confinement since 1999. He calls me and he tells me he had that little Volkswagen that he was riding or driving around and he said hey man I'm over here I'm doing this in that a little part of the Volkswagen behind the trailer because where we were at that was a street that ran behind where the trailer houses were. So you could park on it, right? And he had done this before.

And I'm like right, that's cool. Don't you know, no big deal. And he told me he was riding with somebody else yada yada yada. And I'm like okay, I had no idea that they'd done,

“went and did that in the damn car. That's how I got stuck in the car.”

It didn't take long for Charles to learn that he was being implicated in the murder. That afternoon, or that evening, another friend named Ray, he passed away, right? He passed away like in 2000, 2001, Ray Graham. He called me and he's like man, they're looking for you because he knew all of those people. He knew Rick and he grew up and far and was branched. So he knew Jackie, he knew Gary Black, he knew Doug Robber, he knew all the people to school with him. And he's

like they're looking for you. They say that you broke into a house and killed an old lady. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? Charles Flores was almost dirty, living with his wife and our three kids in a trailer home, and then nearby city of Irving. He worked for his dad's Irving company, but he also had a temper, a criminal record, and a meth habit. He was moonlighting as a dealer.

“I was really a different person than in I just a party home time. That's what it was, right? He”

got into, you know, party and drinking the smoke and all that stuff when I was a teenager. And then they just grew more and more and more and I didn't think that I really had a problem because everybody that I knew was doing. You know what I'm saying? He was no stranger to the police, but he said that they got it wrong this time, but he didn't know anything about a murder. He had a choice. He could stay and face the murder app where he could run. Rather than stick around until officers showed up on

his doorstep, he fled. People say you run because you're guilty in this and that, but yeah, you're also known when you're afraid. You're also known when you know you've been set up. You also know when you're the only mess getting a group of whole bunch of white people, and you supplying

looking for that car. It's involving the house that's been broken into and our murder has been

“committee and I'm sitting with the car and I'm like man, this motherfucker doesn't set me up.”

Charles has done many stupid things, but he's never killed anybody.

Slide is always evidence of guilt.

“Thank you for listening to The Unforgotten, a free-range production. Season 5 writing shotgun was”

created in association with the Texas Observer and the season is written, reported, and hosted by

Michelle Pitcher, a staff writer for The Observer, editing by Aslan Gattis, audio engineering and

“sound assigned by Aslan Sysler with East Side Studios. I'm Executive Producer West Ferguson.”

Stay up to date with us when you sign up for our newsletter at unforgotten.com.