E1098 - The Bachelorette is Cancelled, Taylor Frankie Paul, and Age of Attraction's Leah and Vanessa

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Obviously we'll be diving deep into all things bachelor at cancellation age of attraction All your favorite bravo shows as well is your pop extra where we dive into your favorite pop culture topic scene Maybe get into a chapel room. What's going on chapel room club show them is going on a chapel. I don't know lots of dive into and we have our updates Specials where you get your updates on your favorite assnit calls all available and more so just go to about falls dot com to sign up What's going on everybody welcome back to another episode of the vial files reality recap edition

I'm your host Nick joined by my wonderful wife and the house hold us with us It's also Mary's birthday. It's her 25th birthday

“Thank you. She's very sad about it. The 25th is a tough one. You know honestly, I feel pretty good about it”

I feel I feel 25 I feel I feel I feel maybe like Darius a little bit of a little I don't know right I could tell yeah, yeah, well, we're just gonna dive right into it Hard to say we have a great episode, but I'm really really grateful for the people we have present here Because we are obviously going to talk about the cancellation of the bat charrette the entire take Taylor Frankie Paul incident There's obviously a lot of nuance and now that the dust has somewhat settled. I think this is a story that is

Truly just beginning and there's going to be more more more information coming out But now that we know that the show is canceled. There was no premiere less over the weekend Now we're getting to a lot of people having a lot of questions about how did this happen in the first place? Who are the key players? How did we get to this point that is obviously very sad?

It's very dark and I'm very grateful to have both Emily D. Baker former deputy District Attorney for LA County in LA County in LA County former deputy

LA County four makes me sound elected. I never wanted to be a boss. Yeah, but she is someone we often bring on to help us

Who is a very seasoned entertainment journalist who we've had on before who has covered the Bachelor franchise for how many years now?

How many years I mean over a decade for sure so very grateful to have both these women here We also have Susie Evans of Bachelor Nation as part of the household and so our goal here today is to tackle a lot of these

“Questions and have a nuanced conversation about how this all happened. Where do we go from here?”

What is the fallout and we're really tried to answer a lot of the questions and and add context to a lot of Conversations were seen going out there But I think this is a group that brings a lot of experience and expertise in terms of how this all happened and what's going on That we will all dive into so just grateful to have you with us and really glad we're going to be able to have this conversation together I want to start by just saying I hope that is it's the obvious that this is a terrible situation for

Everyone involved and I know you know for all of us who have covered Rayleigh TV

There's been dark moments in Rayleigh TV with shows before you know There's been scary situations for people. This is a whole different animal lives are being ruined right now Families are being torn apart you know careers are being ended We don't even know how this is falling out. This is industry-changing. This will have ripple effects For years to come wellness calls are being made right now

So I understand right now people are very interested and fascinated by the story But like you know everyone jumping to the internet, you know, you know You guess all I'm saying is before you have your next hot take where you want to jump on your phone and and knowing that

“It's going to go viral and people are going to engage with it. Just just remember that like right now”

There are people's lives being ruined and it's a very scary situation for everyone involved

Children are involved again families are being torn apart and regardless of how you want to point fingers There's a lot of victims in this story. I think the best place to start is this video Last week a video of this 2023 situation came out that I think for everyone I think's to say it was horrified by it. It is a very disturbing video As someone who was previously in a three-year-long abusive relationship and who is now a mother

I Could barely even get through that video. It was so hard to watch. It was very triggering I feel like I had like a rush of PTSD. It was it was just very disturbing and Incredibly hard to watch. I just have to say that I have to get that off my chest. Yeah, and I think it's just again

“It's incredibly dark and the biggest question I hear see right now on the internet is how did Taylor frinky Paul ever get cast it?”

Is the bat charat the big question is how did the secret lives of normal lives ever get green lip Because again this video is as horrifying as it is Happened in 2023 and what people I don't think realize is that they were in the middle of filming the pilot for secret lives of Mormon lives when this incident happened. Yeah, I mean, I think it's I think what's so interesting is I rewatched the pilot last night because I I thought the same thing I thought you know

We've seen we saw a little bit of this we saw a portion of this because the body cam footage of her arrest was in the pilot and it was really intense And she was very I mean and she's talked about it. She's under the influence and she was like completely distraught And we don't know what led up to that there were reports that he locked her in a garage What whatever it was that led up to what we now have seen three years later But then the show had a pause for 11 months, so over those 11 months when she came back

She was pregnant with with ever and but during those months that they paused they There was a police report there was all of this stuff all these details were on paper while while the video wasn't out there from what we know Right, it was sealed because there was a minor involved so but they're all there was all of the paperwork and the report So the producers saw that when they continued and that's kind of my question I'm curious from you Emily, you know

You probably have more insight than I even do. I think as fans of these shows I think there's this a level of trust we put into the people greenlining these shows that they are doing their due diligence And the fact that this incident happened while they were filming the pilot to me He says all the key players in the main main decision makers It wasn't like they found out and incident happened in the past that they should look into it was happening in real time

Which means they had access to Taylor they had access to Dakota They must have been hearing rumors about what actually went down and like the next begs of the question of Who asked what and what do diligence if any did they go in and do and it's my understanding that like to get this to get cameras picked back up There has to be some kind of clearance from legal absolutely yeah and What did that look like Emily? I was like Baker. I love your perspective, but you know, it sounds like again

All right, I don't know that there was a child involved so it looks like these court cases were sealed But we're now hearing rumors that

Taylor's first husband had been trying to allegedly track down this video and get access to it because apparently he had heard about the seriousness of this situation

And when was unable apparently to get that with his daughter in with his daughter involved it was his daughter who was in this situation So that suggests that people knew something right? We we know that there's one person we know for sure New this video existed and that was Dakota. He found it. He was yes, you know, he he owns the IP

“So I am curious Emily can you just kind of walk us through just so people understand because I think right now”

One of the main questions is is how did TMZ get this video did they buy it from someone a lot of people are speculating Oh, no, they didn't have to get it from Dakota. They could have got it from the court case. Can you give us your insight from a legal perspective of what are the most likely scenarios of how this video three days before the launch of the batch Heret and I think that's something that people need to acknowledge is the timing of this all how did this Potentially happen there's a lot of background there in the court

Talk it because the entire court. Docket in the criminal underlying case that Taylor. Frankie Paul is still on probation for for her play in a band Which means she pled guilty to a felony to have other charges dismissed They hold the charge so it's not on her record yet until she successfully completes probation It's like a diversion program, but that's not done until August of

“26, but when this was all filed back in February”

2023 the Information was not sealed so the description and the information includes that the officer watched the video and Describes what was seen in the video so from the earliest ages of this case in the public court records It says the video exists in That filing information so I can't imagine that anyone grabbing the court records didn't know a video existed because it's detailed there

It's detailed in the problem cause affidavit. It's detailed in the police reports and Dakota was filming I can't imagine Production wouldn't have said can you show us what this is now for it to become public is a whole Second matter because the court does not have that video

There was never a hearing or a time when that would have been checked into evidence and given to the court

The court does not have it the court would not have had it. There was no preliminary hearing or other Evidentiary based hearing because she took that plea that leaves Dakota the DA's office and the police The police can't release a video with a minor of a DV incident under a public records request acting and you tell their quote grandma requests But the police can't release that because there's a minor and because it's a DV incident and if they had Taylor could have gotten it taken down and probably should sue the police department for improperly releasing it with her child or

Her ex could sue the police department because that is also his child and get it taken down That leaves the DA's office who doesn't respond to public records requests They send it back to the police department, which leaves the person who filmed the video Also, it's notable to me that TMZ watermarked it. We learned a ton about this in depth He heard more than I had ever known because an employee from TMZ testified about how TMZ does this

They have to have copyright clearance. They don't need copyright clearance on the body cam Which is why the body cams not watermarked, but they watermarked it a certain ownership over it Which means the rights holder had to either relinquish or sell copyright to it And that's the person that took the video. I can't see other possibilities of how TMZ got that video and got copyrights in it Wow, so just I think I think you're already very clear, but just to

“Summarize the IP owner of this video is to coat and the only way TMZ can watermark this video is if he”

gives TMZ permission to do so. Yes, I can't see any other Possibility, especially because in the surrounding action We have not seen anyone going after the police department. We have not seen anyone Talking about the police department releasing this improperly it could not come from court TMZ very carefully sidestepped that this was evidence in court

It was as it was described, but it was never admitted evidence that has a docket number in court

So they very carefully parsed where it came from also the same day that TMZ had access to the video

So the only way they're getting those sealed docket items is to have them either from the attorneys or

From the party and Dakota was the one filing those so they have records that are sealed in the protective order case And they have a video that was not in the possession of anyone but the police and Dakota and even if Dakota gave it to a friend They would still have to clear copyright on it. So that was my question. That was my question because some people have been saying like could Dakota have sent it to someone and then they sent it in But even if someone else sent it in they would have had to have clearance from Dakota. Yeah, I mean if he sent it to someone

“What are his intentions of why he sent it to whoever he's sending it to and I think you you know, I think the big question over all covering the story is”

Who in Taylor Frankie Paul's immediate circle her friends family the people she was working with on a daily basis? Who knew what win and I think those are a lot of questions are going to be start being raised more and more back to you Emily Langereta. I'm curious again

You've talked to a lot of executives and I'm shocked as someone who knows how these shows are made and and the length is to which

I've talked to a lot of former bachelor producers over the weekend. It was and we'll get into You know what didn't didn't happen once Taylor was named the Bachelor at but I was reminded multiple times from a lot of different producers That you couldn't get on the bachelor franchise if you had an unpaid parking ticket back in the day and It this is not because of the Bachelor franchise is some sort of a lettuce group of people They did this big to protect

“Cast absolutely when they were doing background checks and they would ask you questions like does anyone have any”

Compromising videos Nudes or things like that that might exist. They weren't asking you for Content to try to set you up and a an a scene that they're going to film They wanted to know because the people back in the day who made these shows understood the type of scrutiny and Attention all of its cast was about to receive. They knew

Like the intensity of this fan base and how they would look into our past and just find Anything they could to make content and so the reason they were so careful about who they would cast is to protect its cast Like there is you know for all the conversations that go out there about the relationship of being Producer in cast and the evil producers I mean again like there is a huge you know I've been around enough a reality to know that there is a huge spectrum

Of how reality V is made the standards that they have and in terms of individual producers There's a spectrum of each producer is kind of bandwidth for like what they're willing to do for the sake of great TV and for the most part again a lot If they're not as evil as the the reputation is and they also You know there's certainly there are trying to find that balance to put into context how serious the situation is if you remember

If you followed batch renation, you remember not too long ago, arey Right that was a very dark situation where here is a man who at the last minute AFR to change his mind all he did was realize after nine weeks He might have liked his runner up more and agreed to film breaking up with Becca to set up Becca as the Bachelor at and even though He did the franchise of favor. They screwed him right. They made him look terrible and he for a few days

It got really dark. He was the most hated man in America. I remember talking to a Producer at the time and kind of just being like yo like this. This is a lot and their response was

“He's gonna be just fine and the truth is you can debate the merits of that”

But the truth is arey is living as best life today. He's been on traders. He's done a bunch of TV

The reality is is the thing he was getting heat for was an in reality nothing People are allowed to change their mind, but in the TV batch of world they made it into something huge This is a situation where something illegal is happening Some very dark and scary things are happening. We're talking about someone who clearly is struggling with their mental health When we have the opportunity of having Taylor on the show and she talked about this situation

And if you go back and you watch that interview, it's not like she told a different story She told essentially What happened and she was on our couch You know you you you you felt her pain in the room. You felt her sadness in her regret and that and no way that It's a disgusting video. It's a horrifying video

This is a very serious thing. This is not some reality TV drama that we've all can have fun with because like It's gotten a little heavy, but the end of the day all the people involved are gonna be just fine and living their best lives Again, lives are being ruined right now. Emily longer out of do you have any like insight into like why secret lies was green lit?

Situation where children were involved why why were they so willing to lead with that and center

Secret lies in Mormon lives essentially started as a story about forgiveness. It should this person be allowed a second chance

And as human then we watch reality We want to believe that second chances are real thing. We want to believe that we can make mistakes And obviously not something as horrific as this, but that that's that the premise and then the season one kind of opens up like Taylor frinky Paul talking to the other women talking about her regret and her mistake and then we all as fans Kind of accepted that and then focused on all of Taylor's good qualities and we all became fans of her 100%

“I think it's exactly what you were just saying it started as you know”

She became she was so tick-tock famous and she had this swinging scandal that they were like this makes a great for great TV Let's have her talk about this and that's the difference between talking a scandal that can make a great TV show and a scandal That's breaking families park granted that also caused a divorce. So I'm not saying that didn't do that, but it is very different when there's children involved

So I think that they saw this as a this is going to be great TV and then once that happened in the first episode

They obviously did take a pause for 11 months before they even picked up filming again But they realized their priority at that time was ratings and was they saw a success in numbers and Ultimately as you know from any producer well their main job is to get people to watch TV So it's the walking that line of what is It's appropriate to use as a storyline and as a twist and as the most dramatic season ever and

What's ruining lives and we can't get this a platform. I'm curious Emily Baker I imagine in your experience as a lawyer you've covered cases where

Video evidence wasn't available and you've got testimony and you had people stories kind of like from as fans how we how we all

Received this information about those original domestic dispute. I'm just curious from your perspective Emily. I imagine you know what it's like when video doesn't exist and then it does and even though You can hear the same story How seeing that context and the energy in this video and the darkness can completely change people's perspective on

“on what we're hearing or seeing. I think there's two sides to that because the the district attorneys who would have read this case”

Who have done plenty of cases before would understand what that means in writing? I think that the general public shouldn't be exposed to that as much as attorneys working in the criminal system are And so it is a very different and much more visceral reaction to seeing it on video But it's also why when you look at high profile trials if there are videos if there are audio if there are recorded phone calls They try to play that for the jury to bring them into exactly what's happening

There's a reason they say a picture's worth a thousand words a video even more so Because it is much more visceral words on a page do not convey to everyone the same thing that a video is going to and This video is incredibly visceral for people and triggering and difficult to watch and the fact that it was in existence for three years and and just became part of the public

Discussion around this case because there are now it seems incidents being investigated It the timing to me raises a lot of eyebrows and how close it was raises eyebrows But I also have a lot of eyebrows for ABC because I I can't imagine and please I've way less experience In reality TV than I do in criminal law, but wouldn't production if they're filming with Dakota Have asked to see this video because they knew it existed in all the documents

So when they have all known what was out there even though the public hadn't seen it

“I think that's what we're all shocked by again like in my experience”

I I'm just shocked that this didn't happen again. I have too many experiences with and have heard too many stories of of far less serious situations happening where people chances were taken away from them. I mean We all remember you remember Peter Cross. Of course, right if you don't remember He was about to be named the bachelor GMA made an announcement tomorrow. We're announcing our next bachelor. It was set up. They they promoted it and then all of a sudden they were like we're no longer naming our next bachelor

And I don't know what happened, but my understanding calls were made Information was discovered and that's of the 11th hour before they are going to announce it. They didn't now again I don't know why I know of another situation That not too long ago someone was going to be named the next lead and there were rumors started circulating about

I said I don't, but I know someone who know someone who I think might be involved and

I connected the dots a phone call was made and that person was never made the lead and again

It was like they double clicked on their due diligence to just just to make sure before we move forward and And make this person the lead of our show and all these people who have the again like there's hundreds of people whose jobs are on the line You know, it's it's it's an entire franchise hundreds of people are involved whose lies will forever be different and and there's Such a responsibility that goes in to making these shows and on the ripple effects of who it affects Which is to why they in historically do this due diligence and the fact that like they just didn't or they did and they just didn't ignore it

Yeah, it's the question is like Really on that did they know the video existed that they city video and ignore it did they just not want to know Yeah about the video they would had to have known it was existed because even though women of Mormon wives

“I believe had said and I think NBC News put out our report last week that was they did a call with”

Right before the premiere of Bachelor at was set some of the some of the cast spoke to ABC execs and they raised concerns with the new case That is happening right now with Taylor and Dakota. I believe they said we've seen things on video Whether that's that video whether it's a different video whatever it is, but

Source had told me last week that they were were unaware of video existed and that they had never seen anything until the TMZ story came up

So whether or not, but it doesn't seem they were unaware. It just more seems that they hadn't seen it and then like again The back to we know Dakota knew the video existed and this is he's also someone who was a star of the show Who chose to keep quiet you know like why wasn't this video we've heard reports that You know even Dakota tried to warn people Okay, if that's true did he show this video did he not show this video? Why did he hang under this video until this

“Very time and then it brings up a lot of other questions. Can I push back on that just a little bit because”

Law enforcement did have the video Dakota gave it to law enforcement the prosecutors had it. It's in court records

So I don't know if he was just

Sitting on it in that way because the court process was going on, but the question I had about that because They had the video that was all in public record that ABC and Hulu would have had from the time that got filed in February 2023, but They didn't do a protective order when she was taking the plea in a bans, which is normally done It seems to me so they could continue to film together. Well, I guess what's that mean? They didn't do a protective order

When there's a domestic violence Clean a bans like that, there would be a stayaway order between the two parties and a a pretty thorough protective order That would cover the time of the probation to keep the parties apart or to have limited contact to exchange Children there's a pretty structured Protective order that would generally be in place if someone's on that kind of probation

Because the sad reality is that if there has been an incident that came to the court's attention There's a ton of concern that there will be further incidents, and they want to try to mitigate that with a protective order In this case, there was no protective order done at that time. I wonder if that was to accommodate for future filming and if that's the case I can't imagine that lawyers would not have been very involved in those conversations about How these two can navigate continuing to film together because her

Lea and a bans says she can't be around places where alcohol is being served or consumed She can't be around any drug use. There's a lot of rules there that she would have to navigate while being on camera and He's the one that would have been able to opt out of a protective order Talking to the courts as the victim in that case, so my my pushback is on people did have that video and

“They were working it out through the courts, but also it seems that there were some accommodations made for production and then where is production in that conversation?”

Yeah, with what's going on in court and are you two even going to be able to be within a hundred yards of each other? I mean, that's really seems thing work really important context and even more crazy I think I was a more speaking to your acknowledgement that he owned the video and this video got released when it got released And regardless of what happened back in 2023 He made a decision

Recently and why why he made the decision decision now versus at any other point and again You can condemn this video for what it is and find it as disturbing as everyone and you can be horrified by it

I think it's still okay to ask the question given what we saw in this video and given what some people knew how was she ever put in these situations going forward They're basically documenting someone who clearly has some problems and need some help and and needs to Be cared for was not only Like that clearly didn't happen, but was Put in these situations and and made it to be show center around this to activate or

Center around this very toxic and in in problematic relationship and I don't we're going to get into like what we saw in season four because to me

“That is one of like we haven't been really even talking about season four of secret lies because it's honestly been incredibly hard to watch because what I know about”

How they set up their lead and versus what I saw on season four if This situation doesn't happen if this if this video isn't released and they moved forward with the airing of bachelorette

They set her up to fail it was all it was always going to end with

Taylor Frankie Paul hung out to dry because of how they introduced like the the baseline of being the lead of the bachelorette is You have to be ready Bare minimum they were so cautious back in the day that like it was never ideal to name the runner-up the lead and Sometimes they did it under like certain circumstances, but it was never ideal because again the optics of the lead not presenting is ready to Find love they couldn't go into after the final rows and have kind of their leads still be

Heartbroken over not ending up with the lead and then Present they wouldn't present is available for love and then you compare that to how the lead in fertility Frankie Paul was season 10 where she's literally locking herself in the room and saying I'm sick I am not well hooking up with her axe the night before like again, you know when they would not announce the lead They would tell you to basically go hide they would say be careful who you're seen around who you're taking pictures with

This was about like they were trying to protect their lead. They're trying to set them up for success and when you compare

That how that's always been to like what they did with Taylor. It seems incredibly reckless and negligent

“Yeah, you have to be emotionally ready to take on one of the most physical and emotional and and mentally”

Exhausting periods of your life You also have to like be ready and wanting to find love what we saw on season four was the exact opposite I think she said at one point. I'm not ready, but I want to be I'm pretty sure those were words she uttered the her lead in the episode 10 of season four is Taylor Frankie Paul locking herself in a room Saying I don't want to go one of her co-star saying you're not well Taylor, you know

When one of your friends has to break into your house. Yeah, and that's not like it's an honestly when it comes with these shows Again, it's a spectrum of like reality TV. What is real? What is a scene? Taylor it that didn't seem like a You know as a scene, but that didn't seem like they were like all right Taylor. We're gonna come into your house and You know it's when Jesse said when she said who's here in Jesse said mom talk It was like it's the girls with like we have cameras like it's mom talk. It's not Jesse

Macy Layla and Michaela. It's not it's mom here. It's your co-workers here asking if you can go and do your job which is like yeah, it was I also want to touch on something You said the video the timing of the video release so I was over the weekend obviously like many my whole entire feed was like old past videos coming up and Macy's interview from when she came here to talk to you guys about about everything when she was talking about Dakota. We actually have that clip. I'm setting it up for you guys

If we can go ahead and play that clip. Yes, we can. I'm gonna bring it up right now. To set up this video be going into season two we had many of the women on and we had you know

“I think Macy and Layla were doing them in groups. We were doing groups and Taylor were supposed to be a part of this group”

and in the morning of we heard that Taylor was unavailable because something happened the night before and so that was part of this conversation that we had with Macy. He sabotages things. McWaddy think Taylor

didn't show up today. Of course, it's always him behind the scenes sabotaging things.

It should blame Dakota. A thousand percent. It's like anytime Taylor has a big event coming up last year for press New York press New York press the press in LA. She almost didn't show up because he purposely gets in fights with her sabotages things. She's crying. She doesn't want to go do press. He sabotages all the exciting things like you know me like if your wife had a great opportunity coming up you wouldn't be like let me sort of fight before she leaves right like even if you

were mad at her something was going on you'd probably like we'll say it for later. I want them to succeed. I want them to be their best. He doesn't and I think it's almost like a like a competition almost like I think he's so insecure that he has to bring her down to his level to be honest

sometimes someone group settings and he's a very nice likeable guy and I generally get along with him. So it's almost conflicting to me sometimes because I'm like oh like why are you the way you are behind closed doors? Like I wish you were like this person to the front like all the time.

Do you feel like you like performs for the cameras? Oh a hundred percent. Yeah. I always say that

he's a wolf and sheep's clothing and I stand by that a hundred percent. I remember talking to me I see a different time and she had a lot of strong words against Dakota and it wasn't like oh I just don't mess with him. She compared him to her an axe that I guess was very problematic for her and and described it as like a dark person. Yeah. And so you watch this clip back and it just raises even more questions about again like how how bad was this and again now that we have this video

from 2023 that none of us realized how serious this was how were these people put in these situations to film these scenes season four for example that I I just I still cannot wrap my brain around

in any former bachelor producer I've talked to is this like horrified by what they watch in season

four and another thing I don't think people realize because there's some key players that people are not connecting with us. You have Warner Brothers who produces the bachelor. So they have a whole team of producers that's you know that's their entity. You have the production company that makes secret lies. There's two completely different companies completely different motivations completely different interests. They're they're not aligned. ABC Disney is the distributor of the

bachelor Disney is also the distributor of secret lives. They connect the dots but those two production companies have completely different vested interests. And so there is so much care and back in the

“day another thing people aren't talking about that I think from terms of how to this happen is this”

from an industry standpoint. We heard a cut not too like the bachelor was on pause right so this is almost like a perfect storm of again how this happens. On one end you have secret lives this hit show one of the biggest shows on Rally TV. Emmy award winning show. The bachelor franchises on pause but a legacy show one of the most successful Rally TV shows of all time but kind of going

to the opposite direction. They also were never nominated for an Emmy which is a sensitive subject

for all those people involved. And so you almost had secret lies. Everything they did worked. Everything they were doing and it didn't matter how toxic these scenes were. Everything was working and they were being rewarded for it. And then on the bachelor side of things not too long though there was these reports about toxic work environments but and there was a kind of a clean house but even before that cleaning house there was another cleaning house with some shifting in roles.

And even the top executives at the one or brother level are now new. So all the people essentially all the people running. As certainly the biggest decision makers running the show have really no history and how this show is made. They don't really understand the nuance and the care and consideration that has to go into setting up your lead for success. How different the audiences are between secret lives. I mean there's certainly a lot of overlap and they were certainly

“betting on that but it's a different audience with different expectations. Well I think they saw that”

that difference difference an audience paid off for something like dancing with the stars. Of course also owned by Disney. When they saw the success of secret lives and said oh we can put to not even just one but two of our gas members because we'll make it a story line on secret lives. Onto dancing with the stars and help revive that franchise that also is going kind of plateauing and it worked because dancing with the stars was one of the biggest seasons for multiple reasons

but that was part of the reason. So it had one of their biggest seasons so they thought well we can just throw it at the bachelor at two and maybe that also will work the same way not realizing that not only is the audience different but the expectation of a lead on the bachelor franchise is completely different than a star of dancing with the stars or a member of an ensemble cast.

“And again it's important you said you said we the decision makers we could do this and I think it's”

important context consider the we involved is none of the people on the product the Warner Brothers bachelor side of things. No it's the Disney. It's the Disney and the people historically like the old guard let's call it like the people who used to work on these shows for for years the people like Susie and I know who really understood the nuances and we're involved in all these like last

the lead like they weren't involved in any of these decisions and I haven't talked to anyone

“working the show today but my understanding of people who have talked to people the bachelor”

producers maybe not at the highest level but the people working on the show were as equally surprised and it's horrified to see what they saw on season four which is crazy to even think about people involved in making Taylor Frankie Paul season of the bachelor rat had no idea what they were about to watch on season four knowing what her lead in knowing that this was an entire season about a woman who was having mental health struggles that was in this very toxic situation on season four

again I think sometimes as fans we like again we suspend disbelief we're we're watching these shows what we're doing other things I watch it very differently it's like I can see the matrix I know when a scene's being made right I I have the awareness of like okay there's cameras there there's there's mics right so on season four and how long it takes how long it takes I'm sure say for you see yeah but I I have to say I'm weary to believe that like bachelor at producers had no idea

like do we know that like like that to me feels almost impossible because they are kind of under the same umbrella and she's leaving and they literally like producers from secret lives no she slept with Dakota the night before obviously I maybe we don't know but I'm like I find it hard to believe that producers didn't know something going into the bachelor rat

“I I agree with what you're saying and that's what makes it so crazy is that I honestly don't”

think they did because they're completely two different entities again I think the people at Disney should have known but talking to old producers when they announced Taylor Frankie Paul is the

bachelor rat and again like it probably should have never have happened the show should have never

existed from what we now know from this video but okay here we are the show does exist Taylor Frankie Paul is a star the you know the people at Disney they need they they want it's like a perfect storm of you have the show that can do no wrong you have the show that's trying to find a second life and they you know they weren't in a position until anyone know so to speak but my point is once they named her the bachelor rat the producers I knew working on the bachelor

would have insisted that at least one or many people there were to have been so many meetings about like we need people on the ground of season four they would have insisted on being there to oversee the production of season four even though it's not their show and even know they don't have a say and how secret lives is filmed or edited they would have been said if we're going to do this we have to be heavily involved because if you're going to do this you are you're going to

“you have to make sure they set her up for success I remember when I got out and announced to be”

the bachelor on paradise right I got I saw two different edits of the same episode and it was honestly a subtle difference and it wasn't even that big of a deal but they made it look a little bit better than it was before because before when they weren't announcing me they're planning on having me the bachelor they wanted to play both sides it's like let's just let's get people talking but once they decided I was going to be the bachelor and honestly at the other day if they

would have aired the same version but they were that careful about how they set up their person for success because again this is a show that's it's it's about someone finding love and open and ready and on some level whether it's because they've had bad luck or whatever the reason they are excited to finally meet their person let me guess you've got a folder of saved

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order when you go to kinder bravely dot com slash v-a-l that's kinder bravely dot com slash v-a-l for 20% off your first order make sure you use our link so they know we sent you exclusions apply listening to y'all talking about production I do think they had to know that the video existed I can't imagine they didn't see it but even if they didn't is that then an escape hatch and it's not really about that video from 2023 coming to light and it's about what they saw in season four

and about the incident in February but they can't really say it's about the incident February because it's still being investigated is it more about season four and the incident in February and the video just becomes the excuse to put this on pause because I still have questions about whether it's canceled as they said we're not airing it at this time I don't think it's because I don't think it's from season four because the the thing that really surprised me and

Nick and Susia I'm interested here what you think because when this report came out on the Monday

“that secret lives had stopped filming season five because of the February incident”

which we still don't we don't know anything about we just know there's complaints on both sides we know to go to claims but we don't you know it's it's hard even to do that to talk about that without knowing the details because the court records are still been TMC seems to have them exactly but this was after season four had aired this was after a secret life stops filming season five that they are like we are still going full stream ahead what they sent her to the Oscars they

had her on good morning America and live with Kelly Mark they had her doing a press event in New York that night where she spoke to reporters I was on the phone with ABC almost every hour that day being like is this still happening is this still happening because on why I was supposed to talk to her on Sunday night before the premiere and they were like yes she is still doing interviews we are still airing up to Wednesday they were telling you yeah that's the big question mark

we don't know what's going to come out is it is it any way match this horrific video from 23 is it's something else but to your point whatever it was you assume they didn't an investigation but whatever they knew whatever they knew or didn't want to know they were planning on moving

forward question for you guys thinking about well first I was reading this book I've been

reading this book cue the song it's like about the history of reality TV it's really great and there's this like line in it that has just been making me think about this and it's the industry required talking about reality TV the industry required a new mindset and ability to tolerate moral ambiguity creating strange temporary but intense professional relationships whose residue would be edited into and in a sense become the show itself working behind the scenes as a

reality labor wasn't easy early on or weren't recently without union protection struggling the margins of Hollywood crew members were often flinty-eyed scrappers who became numb too and also proud of their ability to endure terrible work conditions but for the people at the top the job could be an intoxicant it gave you the godlike power to create stories from the lives of ordinary human beings and I just wonder if what you guys think about the way kind of

not even the production company but kind of like Disney at large they're like distribution model with like marvel all of that kind of stuff having this like meldids cinematic universe and if they kind of just got in their head of like we have all of this reality TV world that we can meld the bachelor in dancing with the stars and Mormon wives into and then just forgot about the

I've also worked on a lot of great sets with a lot of great producers and executives who like

you know there's always the question is like where's the line yeah well there's a there's speculation

about the moral clause contract and I'm sure I signed my that line didn't read really anything so

“I actually don't know even though I was a contestant on the show but I think a legal question”

might be if there is a moral clause in the bachelor it's contract how does that hold up if one of the franchise actually knew about this and two if they didn't know about it and this was you know being hidden or they are they had never seen the video is Taylor liable well my I am obviously Emily Baker I want to know your perspective but I the first there were reports that Taylor Frankie Paul could be sued I don't see any world that happens again I don't you you you can't

make the entire premise of the show the plot line of season one of this actual incident which

you're acknowledging that you know about it and then there is now video evidence of your treatment of this person and how you how you handled this incredibly sensitive case in these incredibly fragile people in the players involved and then again you have season four you have Taylor Frankie Paul on camera talking about how unwel she is and to me if anyone has a case it's Taylor Frankie Paul in terms of how she was treated once this once they started to green light

these shows and move forward it's interesting enough there's that very famous Lea McSweeney is that I'm against me yeah so for those of you don't know my understanding that case again

like and we've talked about reality he v stars and their complaints you know you've you know I've

heard reality v stars say like they kidnapped me when you know when reality when they showed up

“for production they were like hey you have to stay in this hotel room for three days”

and we can have your phone and you know we've heard reality v stars make you know kind of crazy accusations when you you find out the details like that's not what that was right and then there's another spectrum of again some terrible behavior Lea McSweeney's case is centered around her accusations are you knew I had a problem you knew I was an alcoholic right and and it was that disability and that demon that I have was a very thing that you took advantage of and you put

me in these situations and while that case that case is ongoing it is it's seemingly having more success in any of these other cases that Bravo has had to face yes Lea's I mean Lea's Kate just had a pretty extensive ruling come down from the same judge who's handling the Belldonny lively case he writes a lot it's like a hundred page order but it's moving forward to discovery Bravo was trying really hard to put it into arbitration mediation per their contracts

and the judge was like this is going forward in court because the contracts don't really cover this to synthesize it down but we're also seeing that in the scandal lawsuit where Rachel is still suing Tom and Ariana and that case is still moving forward about things that happened because of the show so there's a couple of these lawsuits out there it coupled with this that might truly change the way production goes forward I would be very surprised if the contestants

don't potentially see which I have a question for y'all about but also I don't think they can morality clause something that they would have found with due diligence because it was public record whether they saw the video or not all those public records say that a video does exist now the incident after filming I would want to evaluate what happened and what the clauses say about after filming because that February incident then becomes a question mark but not from

March and not for 2023 and not for that incident in 2023 in the video in 2023 because they would have known there's a fine line there and again use that incident as the plot line of the entire show right like it wasn't like when they decided to greenlit the show whatever you know remember meeting they had where they said hey by the way though there's this domestic violence incident they used it as a part of like no we're going to lead with it yeah that's we're

“going to focus on it which I think it's just completely changes the optics well that's the thing”

is like we said what we go back to the video showed us how awful this incident was but it was all out there it was probably read this we read the report she we knew that her she did with several interviews she did several interviews talking details that she didn't remember she was the aggressor she through several chairs she didn't remember hitting her daughter but that it was stated that that that Dakota did tell police that she hit her so yeah she this has been something

again seeing an in person as ercing in a video is harder and I think all fans watching it just

due diligence kind of failed us all and again going back to season four like I think I think

fans need to realize what they're watching and season four they send Dakota to Vanderpumville and it's like chief island all the husbands go and they're playing two through there and apparently allegedly Dakota hooks up with someone and now you're filming season four and then you have a scene or Jesse Jordan or Mike Doug and clearly there was a conversation that happened before they filmed a scene saying and this is how they make reality TV right like the the premise is no

one's an actor so the way to get the most authentic real response is to like get the surprise on camera that mindset can be done with rather benign incidents where you just get someone who's like

“in a pressure cooker environment and it's honestly not that serious and you get an outrageous reaction”

or you get again in this situation just now that we have it all in perspective this very toxic

and dangerous relationship that started in 2023 works to Emily Baker's point and in many other case probably would have been a protective order where you would have gone out of your way to keep these parties separated from each other for everyone safety the opposite happened and now on camera you know would you the questions would you do that to your worst enemy would you if they found out that this person had they have a hard time going back and forth with hooked up with someone

else in on camera surprise them with this news so you can capture their their breakdown right but it but that is the premise of a lot of reality TV I hate to say that and but that's the honest truth I just did know that I just know that was the premise when a DV incident was a

“different yeah is this very toxic dangerous as you the word you use it's so accurate that”

there was already police reports involved you know that these people are not in a good state of

mind and as an audience we were sold that even though this incident where we didn't see the video that that we assume there was an investigation and we assume that as bad as it was in the story that we heard that they did their due diligence and that it was okay for these people to be in the same room and to be on camera together and seasons 1 through 3 yeah there was some drama puned into two but essentially like Taylor was the star and looked great and then all of a sudden season 4 comes out

and it's just like a 180 and she's clearly not over him she's clearly has some mental health struggles we now go back and like there's like Taylor's posting about her mental health she's out there at wanting to talk about her mental health she's like I wanted I want to talk about them and we all were just like liking the video and like and you go back and it's just like again you can condemn the video it's whole horrific like we were talking about earlier people shouldn't have to say no to

opportunities but at the same time they shouldn't be given one that is not healthy is one former bachelor producer told me like there were no adults in the room and I just want to give credit to the women involved because this all this all started again with whatever happened in February with these women allegedly coming forward and saying enough enough something this is something is bad is happening here and you know they're all adults but like you know often producers

refer to their cast as kids there's a huge part dynamic between producer and cast member and there is an expectation there's a level of trust and even in the like in when you're making in most sets again like a lot of time there are conversations and acknowledgement of making TV there's like all right you did this for me all this for you you might you might get some heat for this but it's all going to be good when the dust settles and there is a relationship

and there's a level of trust and clearly none of that was going on here I mean even back in season one again I went back and watched some season one episodes this weekend and I mean at one point when Taylor's like you know they're having a discussion of if she shouldn't be in mom talk anymore because of this because of the arrest and Whitney says like you know we're not going to get brand deals when we have someone that's like throwing chairs at people so it's literally sad in season one

yeah there's now a clip going around of the women confronting Taylor Taylor and saying I know how you treat Dakota it's you know like you're not to hear all you think you are because you're keeping a secret and you're only bringing it up to weaponize it against that person and then it begs the question again like why aren't you coming forward and you can't claim it's for the kids nothing about this situation is for the kids I have a question it's kind of

“based on a maybe dark theory that Emily Baker you were saying you explained the I think it's”

IP of the video which makes a lot of sense I I don't know anything about this so it makes sense that there's a watermark so now TMZ owns the video is it possible that there was a person

somebody was for something like a network or somebody was sitting on it and wanted to release I

“think you maybe you said something about the incident in February is that really what this is”

about and releasing the video was more so escape go to actually having to go through with the season I know that's like maybe potentially a crazy theory but is it possible that Dakota could have released it to somebody else and then that person or thing released it to TMZ and would we ever get a final answer like legally is there a way to get that answer well IP intellectual property who owns the copyright in that if Dakota had sold the copyrights in it that should be contracted

somewhere he has not come out to my knowledge and said I did not release this in a very strong way I saw some big statements from his people that said he wouldn't he wouldn't do something to hurt Taylor in that way but I don't think I saw him say and I might be mistaken that he didn't release it but could he have sold the copyrights in that I saw something where his team suggested and pointed out that this video existed to 2023 and that the authorities happened at the had it suggesting that

“that's where it came from and I think that's absolutely not where right we incorrect based on”

what you explained but could he have sold the copyrights to an intermediary yes but you would have I would expect him to have put that out there in distance did especially since it came out on their child's birthday wouldn't one expect it to come out that I did not release this on this day I did not have control of this but then it raises the other question of this is still evidence in a case that is still ongoing because she's still on probation so why would you sell the copyright

in it because then it can surface at any time and that seems potentially an issue but yes it's theoretically possible that he could have sold the copyright in that elsewhere but he was the copyright holder so he would have had to affirmatively do that at some point so he would go to be owned

by TMZ okay so he would basically know if it was sold yeah I mean obviously he would know if it

was sold to somebody or something right and if he didn't want it on him he'd be like wait guys I sold this to yeah like and I his team would have jumped at the opportunity to say like it wasn't right he doesn't own the right whatever anymore yeah I mean there there this happens on YouTube all the time and it happens with other companies that if they own the intellectual property or the copyright and something they can give those copyrights over to another company to take those

things down off the internet if they get out there there are companies that do that and actively protect copyrights and go around and take it down we see it a lot with music but yeah it's

theoretically possible to say I never want this to see the light of the day here's a company that's

going to actively rip things down off the internet in case it ever leaks but we've seen no information about that and I don't know if we would because how can that get out there if he's not sending that video around because it's never coming out by the police it's never coming out by the district attorney's court doesn't have it right so it's not like a dash cam Emily Baker I I have a question I don't know if this makes any sense but Disney as a company is

so focused on keeping things tied on lock they have so much power um as far as like what they can keep out of like median narratives um and so would it be correct to assume that if they've really wanted to scrub a lot of this stuff about Taylor they could or no it doesn't he couldn't scrub this video of TMZ owns the copyright and it so there's not many Disney can do with that if TMZ owns the video and also everything that we know is from the show or she's talked about or she's been

open about and we've accepted her or you haven't accepted her but she's been honest about everything that we have known about her thus far there was also an NBC article where on this call that the women of a secret life has before bachelor I was pulled this is before bachelor I was pulled that there was this alleged zoom call with the women who wanted a pause filming and some executives with Disney and that video strongly suggests that the executives didn't want to know yeah they said

I don't know a lot nor do I want to know too much and that's just shocking to hear but it just it's just speaks to yeah again like if they really wanted to know about this video or with they saw it or didn't see it or you know at least understood this severity of it it just seems like

“they just did the bare minimum just so they could get the show Greenland. I think it's also going”

back to what you said at the beginning that it's not it's not the team that it used to be because

for in it it was had a felony on her record she would have back in the day that what you would never

even have gotten looked at twice if you're on probation not at all and again like you know it does you know obviously the the franchise bachelor franchise you know again like many of us were excited and supported Taylor Frankie Paul being the bachelorette with the idea that like this the franchise needed something new and you did a refresh they needed to be you know they needed to catch up with the times but again what I am just so shocked as someone who's familiar

with bachelor world the again this this is a story to me about like from the very beginning whether it's it of negligence in sloppiness and just a lack of consideration for the for the

cast involved from for the very beginning and to once you did make her the bachelorette the

just the lack of effort and conversations that went into making sure they were setting her up for

“success and it's just interesting the again to think consider that the people who make secret lies”

you know they're the ones winning the Emmys they're the ones that's the biggest show in town and so if I guess you know I don't I haven't I mean I know the players involved but I don't know how familiar are with I don't know if they watched the bachelorette or they were fans and they followed it or they cared about it or they knew it's audience I guess you were in reality TV or where you're aware of it but again like I just know like I said before I don't know what happened and didn't

happen or what conversations you know once they named Taylor Frankie Paul the bachelorette I just know the people who used to be in charge and I know exactly what they would have done many of them wouldn't have thought to have her name the bachelorette that I understand now I'm talking to them but if it wasn't their decision if they got vetoed at a higher level they certainly would have said fine but these are the things that must be done for us to move forward and that obviously

did not happen it also begs the question like she is an adult she is the mother to three children

the second that her hitting her child with that stool that should have absolutely sent her into a

rehab facility to get better that should have been the wake-up call that anyone has ever needed I don't think her environment or her support system allowed her the space to get help I don't think anyone was she they're filming these seasons back to back we have heard her on camera miced up saying like I I'm not okay I'm not well I need help I don't want to do this and it just became storyline and it all of it became storyline no one was like maybe we should

take her serious maybe we should pause give her six months in a rehab maybe she'll come back better

“and then another unique consider is that secret lies was filming at an unprecedented pace like we're”

already on season four they're filming season five and so Taylor literally went in from filming season four being put in these positions like the day before because they filmed four and then when in driving filming the batter at which again from personal experience is just it is it one is the most difficult times of my life of everything that's demanded of you it's exhausting it's every day 18 hours a day you're responsible for all these other people's emotions and

feelings you have the pressure the literal pressure of having to get engaged or the audience will think you're ungrateful that is you know and then she got done filming the show we assume that she's in some kind of relationship and it's my understanding they immediately picked up cameras and started filming season five of secret lies and put her back with her toxic ex who she has had domestic violence and to say it kindly is in reckless and I think it's honestly far more nefarious that it is I think

“it's it's do you think secret lives continues after this I think that's a big question a lot of”

people are having conversations about well well batley is this the end of bachelor which I want to ask you that also probably but I think the real question is bachelor was it may be a legacy show but it was already on pause right secret lives of my wife is the one of the number one reality of the yeah I don't see how Taylor can come back especially as we are understanding the context of the environment she was made to put in she can't come back continue without her I don't

think it can honestly don't think it can continue without her there's already division in the group and then how do you how do you even air season five whatever they have filmed how do you air that with Taylor still in it and again now we have a lot more eyes on just how dark the situation is and then a lot more people are going to be questioning is this okay well there has been cases in reality TV before there was a season of the challenge one of the one of the people and I got

edited her out of the whole season yeah but that's not this something they can do I don't know how much she's involved but there's a difference between again someone doing something very wrong

“outside of the show and having being one part of a storyline like I think they edited out to me”

from season four sure you do yes yeah I think parts of it but she's still in some of this and they couldn't do it all and out again you got to understand that this is like the show itself is centered around this yeah TV situation yeah and I mean Taylor is the star she makes the most amount of money she is the top person on the call sheet which wasn't that in the NBC news wasn't that they tried to like they argued against that yeah we should say my life well apparently there are

rumors that or their speculation bringing like Miranda Laila no that's I think those are

the same rumors there's the first of all the seasons air that's that's people talking is

if like this this is filmed live I know and a lot of people like I think a lot of people who don't who if you're not in the business or you've not have a connection with the industry it's like it's hard to realize that the amount of time in effort that they'd have to shoot a whole new see like it's a whole new year the other yeah the other rumors that there's Taylor season will air on Hulu and so baby I think that's the question is like will they just dump it all on Hulu

“which is my mind that's how my life is that's how my life is but also that's going to get more”

views than it would be if you can see anyways I just I'd steps some of the scandal putting it on Hulu where they've aired all the other seasons of Mormon wives but then also if there's contractual issues for the male contestants not having the season air what does that look like and does that mitigate some of the potential damage with the contestants who and I know what the structure looks like for bachelor but took the time out to film I don't know what that looks like for them

if it doesn't air and I don't I really don't know and I'm sorry I feel very bachelor nation ignorant but they don't know who the bachelor read is when they show up right so they didn't know this time they know this time but they sometimes they do sometimes they don't yeah because they all want it made it like we want it we're here for Taylor so they also were able to do the

do the background check first too I will we'll just say that because a lot of some of them are

very eager to get out on social media and as you said in the beginning share their hot takes which is fair but you also knew who you were going on for we have to say that back to your discussion about secret lives and will that does that have a life outside of this another

“interesting and I'm curious your perspective Emily Disney has a new CEO I think that last week”

was their first week on the job no yes tough week which means that there's no good will for any of the high level people at Disney yeah like if you're a new CEO you have every incentive at this point to clean house because unfortunately a telebusiness works here right when someone new takes over a lot of the time they're a layoffs right away because they're trying to you know lower the cost so now it's like well who do we cut well but then back to her but let's assume okay for setting

that aside you look at secret lives alright well okay let's say they decided to put that battered in Hulu because somehow that gives them something some freedom as a streamer that they don't have to worry about like corporate sponsors or something like that well again if are they cutting Taylor from it if they cut Taylor from it I think anyone who knows about this industry all I've heard is that like Taylor Frankie if anyone has a case about how you know it's it's Taylor

so it is in Disney's best interest to keep that relationship good so are you firing her and then moving on without her it's almost like just end the show and start a new show yeah because I mean we are or they keep her on while fans are all like we're how is that going to play it's the question of what's worth of her ratings because we'll get ratings yes if if the bachelor at air tomorrow every single one of us would be watching we we we we can all say that so it is this

conversation of what is worth of her ratings and what is protecting someone's mental health and

honestly they're safety and their children so I don't know what the answer is I don't know if

this means that the bachelor at should air or that Mormon wife should air I guess that's you know above my pay great but I do have a question about contestants what what do they legally can they do they have a case Emily is that something that could they I know there's been some rumors about that I don't know what their contracts look like I would love y'all's perspective on what that looks like for the contestant and and what their contracts look like going in if there is an obligation to

air because that gives me a little bit more information but I imagine pay structure is based from how long you're on the show and not by filming does that work by when it's released I don't remember the like the contract I signed I know it was a very long one and I know I didn't get

you are signing every right you have away by saying you know and and it was my understanding that

Warner Brothers legal because that's the contract bachelor people signed it's with Warner Brothers not with Disney that they covered every every angle to protect the network and not the cast members like my guess is if it's like some sort of class action lawsuit I don't know how much the men have to gain they would also be ending the reality TV careers before it started you know if if they decided to get together and sue you mentioned you make as much money as it's based on

how far you go you make no money at least unless they have changed it with having a scenario

“they have not had a chance when I was on the show and I think everybody else you do not get paid”

to be a contestant so you kind of put your life on pause and a lot like I knew a lot of girls

that quit their jobs to go on the show for the opportunity for the you know everything that comes with it potentially or just falling in love or just having fun or whatever that looks like but you do not make a penny and a lot of people go into debt to provide wardrobe and all these things for the show and not that there's I don't think there's any legal protection for the contestants I don't know I feel like I signed away everything and was just like hope for the best but I don't

know that right or sure oh I I was told before going you are not guaranteed a spot until you were walking out of the limo you could be an alternate like you could stay this whole quarantine in the hotel and you still might not be on the show and I was like I was assuming that was my role because they weren't there and that happens almost every season yeah where someone flies out does all the things and then there's a knock on their hotel room and and letting him with a plane

take it Emily Baker you mentioned earlier the timing of this video being released and it being released on their son's birthday what does that tell you it's just a very odd timing that I would think that if this was unknown that it was coming out you would have seen very large statements

“of denial that we didn't see so that's what I was I was looking for very big statements of denial”

and I saw very big statements from Taylor's camp I did not see statements that were quite as loud and denial from Dakota's camp they were side stepping and then TMZ's statements were also side stepping and I don't know I mean the child's birthday lining up with the release of the bachelor ed but it's also my lawyer mind is quite cynical there is a custody case going on between Dakota and Taylor and that has been ongoing that has now changed because of the

perspective order was he granted temporary yes because of the new protective order filing that was filed the same day that the video came out the protective order filing that came out the same day that the video came out had the sealed documents that TMZ has about the February 2026 incident and the details of those and then it kind of all lumps together so those things all happened on the same day. What do you think, what do you make of Dakota filing for that

protective order when he did after the video is released compared to like why would when it happened three years ago or even maybe but yeah but or anytime before or in February also we're in an

“in and on an offer relationship like we can't remember that they were also like together for some”

of them yeah well it's just like but just when you think about the timeline of these events again

we were first manner where that's something happened in February between these two a lot of

we don't we we know less than what we know then the women come forward say this isn't okay we need to put those on pause they the executives are essentially forced to honor that request and then all of a sudden the beginning of last week then this more and more information comes out from very intimate information from Dakota side his call log you know other rumors from the relationship that seemed very tied to you know and it's it just feels like and when you consider that

clip that we were aired from may see it just kind of felt like that was the last week Monday was the beginning of getting a story out there and then like and then all of a sudden but like oh no they're still moving forward then more information came out no they're still moving forward then more information came out no they're still moving forward and then it's like all right then they drop the thing that with the spite the kids being involved despite you know how this was going to affect

you know these children going forward in these families it just seemed like there were the termination to ruin her one did filming of five stop do we know roughly when that happened so no it was announced on Monday it was announced on Monday but the incident between them happened the end of February

were like we don't want to film these conversations it's just not appropriate yeah and they were

I think in the middle it's of season five but that all happened in session he couldn't file the protective order while they're filming if he's still filming with her because that's where his

“money she made we don't know remember at the end of season three I think it was he had like refused”

to film so there may have been a point where he sat filming we don't know that and that's also a question from production Nick because productions looking at a very volatile situation and if either of them Taylor or Dakota's trying to opt out production continuing to force them into the same space yes might be good for the show but you are pushing on a powder keg

of a volatile situation that she truly stands quite a lot to lose because she's on probation

and if she does not complete that probation successfully there will be a felony aggravated assault on her record and so there's a lot of questions for me around whether I mean clearly he filmed season four I don't know if he was filming season five but where that protective order gets filed I wonder if it coincides with the end of filming or if it coincides with the release of the video and him being concerned about retaliation or about custody because custody is also part of that

protective order because there's still an investigation and a criminal case hasn't been filed yet it's not uncommon to see a protective order get filed potentially before a criminal case gets filed but there's a lot of legal wrapped up in all of this so the timing of filming I'm wondering if that plays into the protective order or a concern about relation for the video I will also say when when filming stopped stopped I spoke to two separate executives that had said to me

that it wasn't that serious that like they thought that filming would be back up within a week

like they did not think it was like something like this case that first case was so we don't

obviously they don't know because they don't know if that's true but they did not seem worried I

“will say Taylor's obviously has put out I think one statement right since all of this has happened”

yes she was saying that obviously this is you know she has been enduring abuse at the hands of Dakota for a really long time Emily what she need video proof to have any legitimacy towards that or like is her like what she's been through and what she has to say enough I mean it it really depends on the context because I think watching the season of the show and I have not finished season four I don't think there's a question that the interactions between

the two of them are incredibly toxic and though the incident in 2023 she took responsibility for I still have questions from the nine one one call that's talking about the garage door opening closing you're her talking about it in the body camp footage there are more to the incidents than what we're seeing I don't know what production saw and cut and did not air that's going on between the two of them but we also see in filming and we don't know how much is cut you all know better

than I do that there's times when she seems to go from zero to 60 and being angry um about the things that she's learning things that she's seeing in the cast acknowledges that so does she need video she might have it depending on what production has caught and I think a lot of people have seen her experiences but I think to next point the question remains where are the boundaries of production when somebody is in a cycle that is continuing to get more and more volatile

and cameras are constantly up she's not going to take a break I mean realistically what does her choosing to walk away from the bachelor at austere like what's the opportunity cost of that and is that a decision someone can make that's already under that much deras and could she have been threatened with quitting the show if her contracts suggested that she had to fulfill her obligations right you know it almost seemed in season four that she did not want to be the bachelor at

she almost seems like she was not almost she literally said she didn't want to but there's so many scenes of her looking yeah really bad not and not like just like not well yeah you had her co-star saying you're not well what's the opportunity for that though yeah what's the cost of being the bachelor at for her but also for her cast mates does her being the bachelor at buoy her cast mates in what their opportunities might look like and is there an incentive there too

to say we've you've got to be the bachelor at because it it benefits downstream 100% me

“get her mom her family you know like that pressure of you need to do this I mean yeah every that's a”

great question Emily that that's it raises a lot of questions and again who knew what when

the fact that they did come forward I think they do deserve a lot of credit for for they had as much to lose as anyone and they still had the guts to say enough as enough this isn't okay but again like I just I also can't get past like the last episode of season four again like we watch Dakota walk into Taylor's house with the baby and we just assume we're just like observers on the sidewalk that is a scene so how did they how did they know Dakota wasn't ago there he

had as a smirk on his face after they clearly hooked up that night as he's leaving so like did they say they're all night did he call them that morning and be like hey I'm about to walk out do you want to pick up cameras is productions having conversations with Dakota saying like hey man this is your last chance and egging among and things like that also how much footage exists that we didn't get to see that's that's on the cutting room floor that if there is legal

action taken there's so much more evidence about how all these things went down right to me season four secret lives is like a documentation of her treatment and their lack of consideration for her well-being and anyone tied to these two shows even though there's a lot of like there's a lot of opportunity for a lot of people to say well that wasn't my lane so to speak but then the question is who does it boil up to and who what where does the buck stop so to speak

because you you can't have these multi million dollar enterprises with a bunch of people being

like that wasn't my responsibility like during that 11 month break they should have all agreed that Taylor Frankie Paul and Dakota do not deserve any sort of platform they're not okay enough to have this platform or to have this TV show they clearly need help there is something going on here there is a bigger picture and they should not have been handed the pressure of this franchise and clearly like supporting her family the pressure of the bachelor at

like it's just it shouldn't have been she was not okay enough again you can you can see this

“video and you can condemn it for what it is and it's a horrifying video and I think you can still”

have empathy for the situation that Taylor was put in and I think you can think it's really gross after we kind of consider how this all went down and again this video happened in 2023

I think most people would agree it this the show never should have gotten green light and that

would have been she would have been better off then propping her up building her up setting her up putting around this massive platform and then destroying her and again even if this video doesn't come out the way they set up season four going to the bachelor ad it's it was going to be her horrific for her without question people you know all the new all the all the bachelor fans that didn't watch secret lies we're going to start you know seeing clips and when it would

when it got real messy on the show they were going to start looking at all these things and it was just going to be a horrific experience for Taylor no matter what and I find that to be deplorable yeah so I'm going to ask you again and Susie is this the end of the bachelor franchise I mean I probably I don't know it's hard to say because you back you go back to the like if what is it about is it about ratings I mean if they were to insist to cast like right now

there's a lot of eyes on bachelor nations and the show itself so if they decided to make another show it would have height yeah there would be interest right and are they I guarantee you Warner Brothers feels like they got screwed by the people at Disney and again that's not to say they they weren't responsible again whoever they the exact whoever they decided to hire or how they

“chose to run that franchise there's a lot of criticism I think they were wildly underprepared”

I don't think they had the expertise to know what to do to how to handle this franchise and how those decisions are made I don't know but there's there was just so much negligence on so many

areas across Disney Warner Brothers the production of secret lives that like this never should have

happened and there was I had someone like a friend talk about like it almost reminds them of the housing crisis like the big shore where it was like for secret lives it was like it was everyone's making money everyone it like they couldn't do anything wrong and and people just lost the plot and then it all caught up with them and came crashing down but at the end of the day again I think people this need to be reminded there are some serious victims in this situation starting with the

children starting with the children and many people after that and I think it's again there's

“more questions to be answered and asked there's I think there's a lot more that's going to come out”

but I hope I you know I hope we did a good job just you know sending the the ground work or

dark of a situation this is for everyone involved I actually have no idea if it will continue or

not like I genuinely think it's 50/50 I'm curious as to make that has been reporting on it and watch you watch it you consume it do you think would fans be receptive if they were to do something if they just went in different direction or or did something else do you think fans would appreciate it

“or watch I think fans would watch I don't that's it's tough because I don't think it'd be”

responsible and my personal opinion to air I think it would do well I think it would of course do well I think if the bachelor franchise is going to continue I say go full like fun paradise just skip over this and just go into paradise next these next summer let the let the like air settle do you have a human can you give these men an opportunity I'm paradise we have breaking news Jordan has just filed a restraining order against Jesse according to court documents obtained by TMZ

and she filed an opposition to the TRO of course the same day let me pull up the docket real quick because he filed for divorce right yeah if he filed for divorce last week filing a civil protective order might

“filing a civil protective order is done online it's the same thing that Dakota did and it”

can start to set what the custody arrangement looks like while the divorce is pending so let me all let me pull those up real quick we know that Jesse and Jordan are getting divorced clearly there's a lot of information coming out I again this speaks to their this is an ongoing story and the fallout continues and again this speaks to like just I don't think secret lives has a future not this cast I think those are world that they can do a spin-off but I just don't

with all this toxicity and all this darkness centered around this cast things have clearly fawn off the rails it's like as a culture we need to see this and be like okay do we need to take a step back and yeah my experience with Jordan has not been very positive my experience with Jesse has been it's really giving that Jordan's following Dakota's lead but that's a speculation at this point I think obviously let's see how things play out but again it's

“important to condemn this video again I think you can still have empathy for for Taylor and I think”

you know in our experience we you know we've become friends with her over the years and gotten to know her I've seen her bring a lot of joy to a lot of people's lives you know and again that doesn't you know but I just this is this a really sad situation and I it doesn't need to happen and I just think there are a lot of humans in here that just no one no one looked out for them no one gave a fuck about them and I think the question is is who benefited from not looking

into it staying silent not bringing up a like there's a lot of people who benefited from not bringing this to light much soon and then it did and maybe they didn't because now they're

losing money ultimately millions I mean around probably 50 to 60 million is going to be lost at

this doesn't air uh what are you able to find Emily all right so uh worked relation to the divorce of Jesse and Jordan that was filed on March 19th at the same day that the video came out the same day that everybody was at the courthouse there was a domestic relations in junction that is pretty standard filed that day but then after that a temporary restraining order was requested on March 20th and then an opposition was also filed on March 20th but everything on the docket from March 20th

is sealed everything um and the oppositions are sealed so there is quite a bit of litigation that happened on March 20th all of it sealed all of it was requested to seal the entire case file so

if any documents are obtained from this docket there is always an outside possibility that they

were public for just a blip but that's incredibly unlikely however there is nothing inherently improper about parties providing those to TMZ it just becomes a more directed placement it's not that they're obtained through the court docket because the entire court docket uh less of very few things are sealed and a request to keep the case sealed is all from March 20th so that was all done then and the motion for the restraining orders and the oppositions are all within that divorce

docket that started on the 19th the same day that everything else yeah TMZ says they did see the court docks so someone did show them to them if like you said they may have been put as well you

it's unlock it it's unlikely to be based on this docket that they would have been public for a blip because i don't see a filing on there that indicates where it was asked to seal those or

remove those from the public docket of course it is always possible that there is a blip before they

are sealed but that's unlikely when the party filing it is the same party who the documents are seen from because generally if the party filing it chooses to file it unsealed the other party comes in and says no please seal these and then it happens later and you see that filing and that's not what i'm seeing on this docket is it an outside possibility of course is it likely no. Well a lot more that i'm sure we'll get into is this all unfold i just want to think both

Emily's for for joining us you've been super helpful and i hope you guys all appreciate this conversation and again it's a lot of gratitude to both you women for helping us have this conversation we're not done yet here with this episode we do have Vanessa and Leah from age of attraction up next to talk about their experiences going in the finale which is this Wednesday on Netflix we also have a big announcement here the file files coming out on Wednesday as well we are excited to

bring to you but up next we have Leah and Vanessa and then we'll see you back on Thursday

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depending on your goals whether you're saving for something big like a home travel or a wedding or thinking long term about retirement it's really about having control without constantly stressing out about the market at the end of the day it just gives you peace of mind knowing your money is working drew you to this show and why did you say yes to age of attraction well first of all i live in a really small town so i don't get to meet a lot of people and so i really wanted to take the opportunity

just to get out and meet other people and then when i heard that they didn't get to know how old i was it was like fantastic because i was the one lying on the apps and saying i was younger because i did i was like i don't know the scroll down and born in nineteen eighty five like i was rolling down like whatever yeah i was not going to put my age on there because when you did i mean it's just what the people that i was meeting in the group or the people that were wanting to

swipe on me were not the people i wanted to swipe with you know so i wanted to not be judged for

“my age really honestly and so for me i had to give that back and not judge other people for”

there where were you drawn to younger men um yeah so i didn't go to college until i had i was the teen mom so i went to college a little bit later when my daughter started going to school so that was seven years later so i started dating people that were seven years younger than me you know and so for me then i just kind of fit in more with like the younger people oh that was interesting

yeah but i mean never did i think i was gonna be this young but we're here now i mean i was like

you didn't realize you developed a taste so my sister used to always joke because she said that i

saying do's do's and i'm just keep you okay what about Julia um for me my my sister and last sent

“me the application um she was like you should you should do what you should try and i was like you know”

what what up the lose cuz i'm still single you know i submet the right person um so and i figured if it actually it works out maybe this is like my person you know cuz like god got me this opportunity for reason and it's kind of dope i'm like out of all these people you know i applied i was like i think everyone else got founded everyone got reached out to i didn't i was writing i think it took me hours you know i mean it's just trying to be myself i'm telling you i was like

i had i had a save it screenshot it cuz it would time out yes it's a process and so i was like well if a man's doing this you know this got to be good and so for me i was like the more the mayor here okay let's see what's up and you know it's hearing from Vanessa she was like yes they don't get it on my age obviously with the show as you as you ladies both know we obviously

“were interested in exploring relationships with age differences but that you had the opportunity”

to meet plenty of men your age when you went into this were you had you dated younger men before was that something that you found yourself doing or was a relationship with Chris something that was new for you so i've dated both older and years when i was younger i dated older when i was now older the young ones come to me cuz i don't look my age and i just don't even tell them anymore cuz they don't believe me and so when i've when Chris came i was like you know what

he said he's he made he would came to me very confidently like the way he looked at me and then he said he made money and i was like well he sounds like he's set you know he knows what he wants and who he is so i'm like well why not i mean i've dated other 20 or you know upper 20s

and it was fine we did see that you Vanessa had you explored Chris yeah i ultimately did not work out

there's a floor you went on a journey with Chris you did pyramid with Chris sure that what was it about Chris that just didn't work for you he did come on quick kind of strongly in the beginning and i was just you know open to it but then as i got to talk to him a little bit more i just felt like there was a disconnect like i just felt hit we just we weren't aligning you know and for me i thought there's got to be some this is

in it for me you know so there's a disconnect at the peer is when you find out when you when we first all get to Vancouver right you find out for the first time that that was a thing a thing first did you think that she knew going into that yes you guys because i it's spoken with my partner about it so i assumed that he and they would but you had conversations you i mean we saw you kind of work through that was that a hard thing for you too to work through

no it was we literally once we were able to talk about it we i let him know was going on how i felt and we sat on the couch and i just told him how i felt and i told him i was like i felt very alone like i didn't know like everyone knew because Vanessa had told her partner i pretty sure

probably ace out and then Chris went this whole time and never even crossed his mind to tell me

and so for me i'm like well why because he's he literally harped on the fact that he's such a good communicator he's like i'm a great communicator i was like okay awesome and then you know he does speeches for a living i was like great and then when it come put it came to shove he couldn't even just let me know what happened because i we weren't even dating so i wouldn't have even been mad at the fact right i was like it just been nice so it heads up instead of building blind site it's i thought i thought

everyone knew i thought all the girls knew all the men knew and i was like wow not everyone yeah i know now yeah i'm curious in that moment you know with this show obviously being sitting around like age differences did you see that as a sign of immaturity from Chris and you know oh it's show that he is younger or was that just more like not like character because that's kind of heavy but like

“you can you can be a 40 year old and and and and withhold some important facts in dating as”

well how did you see it in that moment for me because he he did come across like oh i i'm a great communicator for me it's like he had you say this he's it's more of a character fly would say because i can't say immaturity because i've he's had tough conversations with people you know but i don't think he's had it with women because he also led me to believe like that he dated a lot of older women and so then when i asked him he was like well technically we didn't really date

we kind of just had like a thing and so i was like oh so you're not used to hard conversations in general so i think that plays a huge role and at that point like did you see it like an opportunity

was it more of like a mistake and and maybe you needed like set new expectations of what you wanted in a relationship or i definitely had to set my boundaries and what i expect from relationship because we didn't get to spend as much time as all the other couples we kind of were a last couple so i we probably only got to spend maybe like six hours you know you're talking like probably prior prior so like our height you went our dates we literally did hiking because

like that so this is our first time together being in it and so yes maybe he didn't want to

roughly any feathers he didn't know how i would react but it's like he didn't give me that chance to even react because it's like of another day it's okay like we weren't even a couple so like of course our whole goal here on the show is to find you know to talk to everybody do what you got to do you know so for me it's like he didn't give me the benefit the doubt right but i do feel like when you'll have that conversation once you finally did yeah it was a very quick like

nipped in the back done done it didn't it didn't if for me it didn't linger on we we squash it because once we talk about it for giving forget and then we're moving past it like i don't let

things linger it's not that serious right but i said did was the comment Logan made about

“visual age that's yeah i didn't know how to take that honestly because maybe people just lie”

and gas me up and tell me that they think i look younger than my age so when he just put it out there like that i'm kind of speechless actually did he ever apologize oh immediately i think after he said it like he knew it's like when you're when your puppy bites you and they're like oh I shouldn't have done it like oh you know i was not good a big part of your storyline with you in Logan was the lack of intimacy or early off which is you know just kind of a fascinating

conversation between men and women and how how that conversation goes when also very relatable conversation yeah like when when the women are feeling like maybe they're not getting what they need in the bedroom versus when a man might feel that i'm just curious like how can you just walk us through what was going on yeah how did you want to go about communicating that so it was interesting for me because you know you think like you're with a young guy and

everyone's like oh they have to watch stamina and they're so they're so viral and it's just going to be like this fun i i was expecting fireworks on the 4th of July and i was getting cold sandwiches

on memorial day like there was a second there was just like nothing happening and then i started

a question it like maybe he isn't attracted to me you know so i did have the conversations with him and he's like devoutly religious which i didn't really know that going into it and he's you know this was something he was concerned about how he would look in his religion and that sort of thing do you feel like having the conversation with Teresa and kind of finding out like oh maybe everyone else is having sex did that kind of getting your head a little bit of like why am i the only one

out that's not yeah i mean having that conversation it kind of put things in perspective to me because i felt like yeah they're doing that but but then i felt also that like Logan was trying to go for something deeper you know that he wasn't just like hey this is just going to be like

“cheap fling while i'm in Vancouver you know like i think he was being a little bit more intentional”

and more thoughtful so after that conversation i i it actually made me think better of no totally yeah definitely yeah yeah his answer was very respectful and i appreciated that answer a lot then i think maybe what i would have expected him to say it was a nice surprise to hear that from him and i guess how did you how were you able to get out of your head and and believe him versus you know as they say the comparisons the thief of joy yeah and just be like oh you

is that a line are you making that up or is this well i think after a while like the tension build up and he couldn't hold up he's like he's so religious he waited three days yeah he took his cross necklace off and i knew what time was ah yeah with with you in Chris it was a fascinating conversation about i guess quality time was really with that what that disconnect seemed to be about with you too Chris kind of described he's you know it's like i was like

“earlier but like all day you know and and you obviously at least that's what it seemed like”

quality time is a important in terms of your leveling which is and you really wanted to share those this you know very limited time overall for you guys to get to know each other but yeah could you just speak speak on that a little bit more from your point of view on on that disconnect

went on like three days so he probably maybe so in like a couple of hours each time and then we

go to Vancouver and we have our first brunch date and we have a great time we have a great time

at brunch and then we get back home and i'm like all right let's keep the party going you on a man i'm like all right it's great and then he was like i'm gonna take a shower and go to the gym

“we're taking a nap but i was like that's it yeah i think it was nap showers him yeah yeah i was like”

we just we just like you know we got turned out we're like this and i was like that's it and that was it and so then for me i was just left to sit on the couch with no TV no nothing and i'm like all right this is what i signed up for because he has a really like so different when you think yeah there's no TV you have no phone you have like nothing else i had a book you guys and i was like that is important yes that's like i literally was like this is it and then

for me i'm like we just had such a great time with that we're gonna just talk and just for me quality time is it with the camera in our face 20 you know i'm saying like that's off the camera so you can get to really know somebody so for me it's like i didn't get to really secrets unless we had that camera so that makes sense so for me i'm like okay we filmed like well let's actually just get to hang out now and be us and just relax and kick it and it was like

go on a sleep how long did you have for i can tell you because i was just i would probably

“went to the job why i think i read my book and then i love there's just no point like what's the”

point when we caught up with all of y'all at dinner after you had met family and friends you had some opinions on Theresa not telling her kids john's age right i mean i think everyone was thinking this opinions because i saw her was faces around the around the table you don't feel like you were alone and no absolutely not what's i've alone but now you were not alone yeah i

never like i looked around i was like is it am i am i the only one that really things because

the whole goal of this purpose of the show is not care like we really date we date who over one a date we don't we work excited about their ages it doesn't matter no one looks their age anyways it's perfect and then for her i just feel like she just got what does it like that sense like there's like an entitlement where she gets treated like so it's she didn't she didn't she didn't get required all that i had a sign holding up like age age age age you know and like

it's just weird that people just had different expectations between people and so but i get the voice i didn't know Theresa i know that her like that so i didn't know her she had kids i know she had kids i didn't know how many i didn't know her kids were older than john so i had that's why i had the comedy that asked i was like oh well how old are your children and then she's like oh

“and that's so that's why i was like oh one's twenty nine i get it now so i was like i understand”

i get what you're saying because i didn't know okay so once you got a little bit more context yeah kind of understood i guess she was coming yeah i mean it's just to play devil advocate i told i get where you you're coming from and certainly in reality the reality of evil it's it's hard not to compare and getting your head but um as i'm sure like both you ladies acknowledge that you know just the world as as i think Theresa was trying to point out like it's just very

judgmental when it comes to especially older women in younger men um and i think just any couple in an age difference i think we're just so used to like people leading with negativity you know

it's like the the the jokes or the assumptions like it always tends to be negative um so i think

for anyone in a relationship they're really excited about and see the potential it at least makes sense why they're initial instinct is protect that and keep kind of those outside voices out that was this kind of my read on it at the time but with Lisa they i but i would see them out in public like as an and like he was happy to be out with her and she's older you know i'm saying so the least she can do is like all right you know i'm gonna tell these tell my children his real age because

he's he's proud of me he's they're really walking hand in hand like in this in oh i tell you guys from john's but i think he's cute to me like i'm a size great do you feel the that kind of stigma that like older women with younger men is not normalized it's weird it's like people judge it more than they judge older men with younger women they're going to judge regardless but i'm like well if you're happy you're happy it's like that's your job to not care

about what i was saying about you sure regardless you know i'm saying like if i found like a young guy i'm like as long as i'm happy all my people are going to be happy for me you know i'm saying and like that yeah so what if i was different you can feel that that kind of like stigma i definitely think there's a stigma to it and people like to make jokes people like to be funny and like to make jokes about it and i i good thing is i don't care i don't care what they say it's my life and i'm

i think just sometimes when i first started dating i wasn't like that day one i wasn't like

i don't get a fuck when anyone does you know like it's hard not to get your head sometimes if feedback we receive there's there's some truth in it right there's like well maybe i should

“consider that or maybe i'm just like caught up in a worldland so you know i think it's it's great”

to get to a point where you don't care what other people think and i think realistically we kind of all have to go at our own pace and process you know some of our fears and insecurities we have with us taking kind of these bigger leaps in relationship but i do appreciate the great tv but we will it we grow and adult women we know we won't but i'm not the life she would have said something

else i might have i literally i was like it might be three cents like it's so funny nick was like

smiling in that scene he said this is great i really appreciated you in that moment i remember after that there was a little bit of awkward silence where then i came in and clarified that there were no rules and you could kind of take that and do with it what you wanted to and you were kind of like yeah yeah i was i was i was i i used so hard i was like well you knew they were rules okay we all know there's rules and i was like but she didn't have to play by the rules

but i'm gonna let it go and we're this you saw me who saw you did i was you did you i was like what do she flip but okay yeah i did because i was like yeah we're on no one so yeah but like i and i was like you know what we're gonna drop it it's mm-hmm but i do think but i do think that it was a missed opportunity you know like none of us who wanted to do that no one wanted us to see mom i was about let me think i'm 30 but it was a missed opportunity

like she could have had that moment well you know listen on the other side you're right you know i think if her children if her children's opinions are going to matter which i assume they would they

“were gonna matter which it would make sense for the with that bandaid off now well i mean you need to know”

otherwise i might not regardless you know otherwise if if if they will play a rolling year decision then they need to probably know as soon as possible so it's it's an interesting conversation you're welcome uh and Vanessa we we've um it'll be interesting to watch uh your relationship with Logan unfold but you you guys fight like cats and dogs yeah so i was famous for i was

single for a while and before going into this experiment and i would always just go on like

three dates with someone to be be done like my first date okay it was good the second date i was like uh third date i was like okay that's it so i really kind of had to push myself to put the work in and i think he was kind of the same way like he was just doing the situation ship and i was just going on dates and i think like both of us like i don't know we just have this this connection that makes us want to put the work in and so we wanted to take the risk we wanted

to put the work in and we fight with each other but we fight for each other and i said this was love because i had been engaged a couple times before my wife but uh you uh we learned that you had four engagements prior to coming on age of attraction yes um can you give us a little background on your relationship history and yes sure yeah so i've been engaged four times um one for each

“decade so yeah so for me you'll have all rings honestly i will say that um some of the rings i”

gave back because i feel like it's good karma yeah i feel like if you give the ring away like the universe will give it back to you yeah and then you truly that's the truth and the ones that you kept yeah wait look no i don't think i kept one i i had one that i'm got made into a little necklace so i could give it to my daughter because it was from her dad so i put the diamond into um let's give it a little thing yeah so that was the one that i kept but the rest i gave back

so i could um get a bigger one and return this one and what did you learn about yourself along that relationship journey of yours to the engagement journey yeah just you know yeah so um i learned a lot about myself and for me i was feeling you know i i like that concept of being engaged because you're actually in a commitment and it's not a situation ship you know that you're moving towards something so when you're moving towards something you're gonna start putting the puzzle pieces together

and building the foundation and so then if it doesn't work out and then you realize like hey our dreams don't align then it's time to move on versus like if you're just in this like relationship and you're just kind of dragging it along and you're not really together you're not really you know that is it's kind of sick this whole situation ship that's going on in the world like people aren't committing anymore so for me i was like i would give 110% of myself and then if it

well we are excited to uh see the rest of your lady's journey that doesn't unfold see what happens

“at the finale see where you are after that but it's been fun rides far now yeah thanks for”

being a part of this uh new journey in this new show and uh we were just it was great we really enjoyed

the whole cast and we said this mall many times already for the show but um it was just a very

“like a little cast you ladies included and it was just it was great to be a part of the show that”

showed like a lot of really interesting relationship conversations with a bunch of people that

like we can root for and see the good it and you all bring interesting perspectives and you know it just is someone who's like you had had a lot of meaningful relationships prior to meeting

“my wife like i think sometimes we feel like we've tried and failed a few times early in”

life that we come into new relationships as damage goods and i just like to think it's more like we we have an opportunity to learn and be better uh so thank you both for being a part of this journey with us and it was this pleasure to have you on thank you for having this pleasure today it's so fast