475: Jan Jekielek—Killed to Order

>> It's the way I heard it with me, Mike Roach, a class Meyer standing by to push all the buttons. Actually, that's not true. You've already pushed the buttons and you've already heard the conversation that's unfolded and you would appears or no less gobsmacked than I.

>> No, I love this guy, I love what he does. I love the honesty with which he talks about it. I love the heart that he has about this because he's really trying to save people's lives as what he's trying to do. >> Yannie Kellick is on a mission, has been for as long as I've known him.

“He's, I think he's the chief editor over it, epic times.”

>> And he has a show called American Thought Leaders, which I've been on once or twice. And I've gotten to know the guy over the last few years. And early on, he confided in me that the issue of his life is the organ harvesting that has been happening for a few decades now.

In China. And, you know, I don't know what to do with that kind of information. You think, you know, a guy, and he tells you that 90,000 political prisoners are being killed to order literally. He's talking about the fallen gong and the wiggers and a giant population

of people who have been incarcerated, who's blood has been typed, who's tissues have been tested, who are essentially just standing by to be harvested for an unbelievably robust market. >> Yes. >> Humans, desperate for better working parts. >> These people are living in a place against their will.

They're in prison. And the prison they're in is right next to a hospital, where their organs will be extracted.

And here's the thing, Mike.

It's not like they're murdered and they take their organs out. They take their organs out while they're alive still, and just toss away the bodies afterwards. And then they take the bodies right next door to the crematorium, which all three are next to each other.

>> If that sounds fantastical to you. It's because it is fantastical, but it also happens to be true. And I feel really lucky. His book is out today on the 17th of March. He asked if I would write a blur by said, sure.

Sure, a lot of other people have as well.

“I think we are in the phase that all truth eventually passes through”

on its way to general acceptance. Right now, people are gobsmacked. They're skeptical, but the evidence is overwhelming. And this book, killed to order, provides just page after page, testimony after testimony, eyewitness accounts.

Yeah, it's happening. You know what? Go to your favorite AI assistant right now. Claude, Grock, chat, GPT. Ask if organs are being harvested from human beings in China.

The answer is yes, everywhere.

Everywhere. The only people who are saying no are the people who are doing it. >> Yes, right. >> Yeah. And to be fair, a lot of people who are involved,

there are whistleblowers out there. But not as many as you would hope. The reasons for that are several.

“And we get into it, Yann and I talk about it right out of the gate.”

Because, of course, the consequences of talking about this are death. >> Right. >> Quick, immediate, do not pass, go. So, look, China's a hot button for a whole bunch of reasons.

Yann has never shied away from any of those reasons.

What he's alleging is shocking, but he's been at it now for a long time, and people are starting to pay attention. So, do you recall the episode he was on prior? That's probably worth a quick look, because what I'm going to recommend you do. If you haven't heard it, it's worth listening to, because we really dig in and talk in detail

about many of the claims that are in this book now. But I didn't want to go over the same exact data again. And so, this conversation is really more about Yann and about the conditions on the ground, and the conditions in the species that allow for this kind of catastrophe to unfold. >> And the overall subject matter of being moral, being ethical, what you would do if you

found yourself in that situation. >> By the way, it was episode 438, the terrible truth about China. >> So, that's where it started. Yann came on here, it wasn't even a year ago. The conversation we had went totally viral. Millions of people have either seen or listened to it, including the publisher

who reached out to Yann shortly after that appearance here and said,

And we're here to talk about that book, but also, as we just intimated, to talk about the fundamental things that allow this kind of thing to happen, that allow it to persist, etc. etc.

“I think it's an important conversation, and I admire the guy.”

He's taken a lot of shots for taking the position he's taken, but it's an important one. And my guess is that he will be utterly vindicated in time. >> Oh, yeah, because I know this is going, I just know it. And I can't prove it, but I know it. Yeah, the book is called "Order to Kill."

We're killed to order, which is a chuck. >> Kill to order. >> The book is called "Killed to Order." And so is this episode, because it's a great title, and Yann Yekelek is a great guest.

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It's my first book. How's it feel?

It's surreal. Especially since we're doing the book launch at Kennedy Center with Rob Schneider. Okay, in a room of 2,000 people at the Concert Hall in Kennedy Center. That's the book launch. Can you imagine?

“I think we're probably got 500 now. It's a virus VPs, but we need a lot more than that.”

Yeah, that's great. And I got news for you. We're in the thing right now. It's happening. It's happening. You and I are doing this again. Right now. Yeah. In real time. Yeah. I'm so happy for you because I know that this topic has been how long did you feel like just a lone voice in the wilderness, telling a story that everybody was skeptical of? Mike, the thing that happened with most people, I mean, as they most, it probably most is right.

When I would talk about it 20 years ago, is that people would mentally leave the conversation. And I would see their eyes sort of change. You know, you can see that kind of look when someone is no longer there, right? That is no longer connecting. Right. I sympathize with these people because this was, I was talking to them about real life horror. So, yes. Well, I mentioned that in the preable and we talked about it in some detail, was it a year ago? Has it been a year since you were

“here? It's a less. And so that's why what's amazing about this whole thing, right, is that, you know,”

actually this podcast as you point out and thank you for endorsing the book. So, I don't know deeply. I guess is the word I'm looking for. But it played a major role because the publisher was interested in me writing a book and I said, this is the topic. I'm interested in writing. What do you think, right? And so he was checking with, you know, different people about it as, you know,

as you were checking before you had me on for the first time. But one of the things that he found

that I shared with them for full transparency was our viral interview on this and this was one of the

Sky Horse is keen to cover difficult topics. We know that. However, you know, this one is particularly

difficult, especially since there's this massive effort by the CCP and frankly, you know, using some even Western institutions to make it sound like it's not real, right? Because it's so

“unbelievable, right? The thing about our last conversation that I believe stuck with so many people”

was the thing that stuck with me. And it's just the question, why? If the allegations are true as they certainly appear to be, why is there such resistance? And, you know, I just assumed the obvious answer was, you know, we have our head in the sense. For the same reason fans of the MBA don't really want to know what China did to Anna's canter freedom and how they've locked down and how the MBA has become completely captured. You don't want to be a fan of that. You just don't want to have

that pushed in front of you. It harshes your mellow, you know what I mean? It's a buzzkill. But this isn't that. There's something else happening that makes this so awful. And it's not just the dread of the topic or the horror of the accusation itself. I think it has to do with the fact that if you ask 99 out of 100 Americans who would be horrified by this and would condemn it just as surely as any right thinking person would, if you get that person in a corner and if you say, "Look,

let's be honest, your 15-year-old daughter has a month to live unless you get her a new heart and a new heart costs $200,000." And I can get you one. But don't ask a lot of questions. Just give

“me the money and then I'll get a heart enter. How many people who could afford it would do it?”

And I think the answer is probably an awful lot. So this thing reveals, I think, tacitly,

something kind of awful lurking in us all. Well, and it also highlights, I mean one of the central themes of the book as you would well know is how the CCP is very good at making everyone complicit at weaponizing basically anything in this case desperation, right? How do they make the complicity so universal? Well, they're very good at it and we're using all sorts of ways. I mean internally, you know, my mother, even in Poland in the 70s when she escaped to Canada ultimately, you know,

experienced a situation like this, where, you know, you get called in by the commissar. The commissar says, "So I'd like to know what, you know, your friend or maybe your loved one, and my mother's case, it was what your friend was doing last night because seemed to be a little bit off-kilter. It's for the good of the party, the other good of the party, right? And my mother, so my mother was not one of these rub people who were actively publicly against the party. She was like a passive

resistor, but at this moment, they forced her hand because she said, and you could never say

no to these guys. These were very serious, cold-eyed people. She said, "I'm not really made out to kind of do that." Right? They let her leave, but she lost her passport. She lost a lot of her privileges, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right? But in other cases, you know, if it's say your wife that was being asked about the next comment that's made as well, so my comment over there, he's over there with your daughter, over at the school, making sure she's safe.

You wouldn't want anything to happen to her, would you? Right? And at that moment, you make the decision. You say, "Well, I guess I'm going to tell you what my wife was up to last night because I need to save my daughter," right? A lot of people would do that, and this is just one example, they make you choose the lesser of two evils, and now your moral high ground has been lowered.

“You know you've done wrong. You were forced into it, but you did it, and now you have to live”

with that. And now they can control you a little bit more. That's just one example. That's internally. Well, I guess, I mean, for context, we're talking, what is it now? 80,000 a year, you figure? You know, it's a very difficult thing to calculate, but 60 to 90,000 transplants per year in the Chinese system, in this killed-to-order system. That's a conservative estimate. Those boundaries are conservative estimate, okay? In fact, I've reviewed for myself an intricate detail

of this research project. So to speak at the time, if he testified, I believe it was in 2016.

“In front of Congress, and he explained exactly how he got to those numbers, right?”

And the bottom end of those numbers is a wildly conservative estimate. And even the top end of it, frankly, isn't pretty conservative estimate. So it's a huge number, but I don't want to say definitively because I just don't know. These numbers are secret. We get them through inference, but one thing I can tell you is that when Ethan came to that very conservative, he estimated 60 to 100,000. The reason I take it down a bit, I go with Matthew Roberts and another one of the

heroes of this research thesis. I just want to be a little even more on the conservative side here.

I mean, that's basically his thing, right? That's okay, Matt. I'm going to go with you. I'm going

to go with you on your numbers. Even though Ethan vehemently contest this, okay? You know, this is like kind of insider baseball. That estimate was 146 hospitals active doing transplants in China, okay? The organ transplants. The number today is 200, okay? And based on the way these numbers are calculated, it's incredibly unlikely that those hospitals individually are doing less individually than what those 146 were doing before. So it seems like the numbers in the louder last and years

have gone up significantly. But can I be absolutely sure? No, I cannot. But can I absolutely

“sure they have no legitimate source of organs? Yes, I'm pretty darn sure of that. How?”

Until 2015 or so, they didn't actually have any legitimate source of organs. Just for the record, right? What was said to people who are getting the transplants is like, oh, it's a death real prisoner. That was a common thing or another thing that we heard. Actually, this was a South Korean film crew that went undercover with hidden cameras looking at it, right? I talk about them in the book as well. There were a lot of people in China. That was the answer. I mean, also the death

rope prisoner answer. I believe it's 2015. I hope I'm not getting this wrong. They introduced an organ registry. The big flourish and they say, look, now we have an organ registry. It's all legitimate. And we're no longer, now they admit to not, to having used prisoners before, even though they didn't before, right? And say, we're not going to use prisoners again. Now, what the researchers found, and this is, even you look at this guy Matthew Roberts, and I mentioned

him, or is an amazing PhD thesis that he published last year has multiple, like, amazing. I

one of the things he published is this, what I call part of the smoking gun evidence. But another thing that he published was an analysis of that organ registry, of the numbers that they presented. And they are a perfect, and you'll appreciate this more than many people hearing this, right? Those numbers were a perfect quadratic equation, the growth. It's incredible how, you know, perfect that curve line and the demand just had in glove. Yeah. I mean, it just means that

the data were obviously false. He wasn't even an elegant falsification, right? So to speak. It wasn't an even an elegant fraud. It was obvious fraud. So to go back to the importance of this, your first point, complicity. You know, if there are 200 hospitals in China that are performing daily organ transplants and there is a giant population of political prisoners still in jail, still being used, harvested. How many people need to know what's going on over there? How many doctors? How many

wardens? How many, I mean, just go down the list. And a part of my skepticism, the first time I heard about this, the first time you shared it with me was just I, people are bad at keeping secrets by and large. Humans are bad at it. You would need to be in a completely different kind of situation in other words to keep the lid on something that consequential. And yet, like, like, where's the videos?

“I imagine you must have gotten that question, wouldn't want. Oh, absolutely. I mean,”

there's a few answers, okay? There's a few answers, a question. One of them is that revealing this means death. And everybody knows that. Like, it's not an ambiguous thought. You know, every Chinese family has experienced personally the heavy hand of the regime

on even trivial matters. Never mind exposing, you know, one of the greatest crimes against humanity

and existence today. So institutional memory, okay, or family history memory, that's part of it.

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“Another part of it is, there is a rumor around it. By the way, it's used as a tool of control”

in the massive incarceration system that China runs. All these different prisons, black jails, re-education camps, all of it. One of the things they will tell people, and we've heard this a lot, is you better do the thing that I require you to do, or we'll take your organs. That's something that's commonly used. Of course, it's not. That doesn't prove anything in itself. It's just kind of a coercive, verbal tool. But this is one of the difficulties you actually have assessing

the crime in the first place, because some of these people are bringing torture to death. So the

prisoners of conscience, they're disappearing for maybe just because they were tortured to death, because they refuse to renounce their faith. And then that person disappears. You don't know in the early days. People didn't even imagine that there was something like this happening. The other part is you where the crime scene is an operating room. It's meticulously cleaned every single time because you don't want people to become infected. You want people to keep coming

back. So you're making sure the organs are extra fresh. You're making sure the matches are really strong, and you're making sure that there's absolutely no evidence. So this is the other part. There's an example, Ethan Gutman sites where there's, you know, in Xinjiang province, they built a hospital, a prison, and a crematorium, kind of side by side, right? I mean, it's kind of crazy. You think they would maybe hide one of those three or something, but in this case, it's very

plain to see. Why would you leave any evidence when you have, in effect, disposable people? You know, one of the key pieces in the book is the CCP instrumentalizes absolutely everything, bodies, right? In this case, human beings, right, to be used as fodder. If you're doing something like this history tells us that when people are affecting, in most cases, these very extreme crimes against humanity, they tend to not want to leave the evidence, right? So if you can just,

you know, burn the body and you're done, and you don't even, and again, these are all incredibly

vulnerable people, right? With the fell and gone, they dehumanize them first, which is always

happens at preceding any atrocity, right? There's always this huge dehumanization aspect.

“Mass propaganda is pushed through the system. That's why for this type of organ harvesting,”

it has to be a state actor, because you have to be able to dehumanize the people. You have to be able to convince the rest of the population, like we're not, not everyone's a psychopath, and everyone's ready to do horrible things to their fellow man, especially here we're talking one and thirteen Chinese back in 1999, right? So these people were practitioners, or practitioners of fell and gone, practicing truthfulness, compassion forbearance, right? Very grassroots, very

bottom-up, and you know, also very resilient to this reeducation techniques, which the party has been so good at developing over decades, right? Transformation, I hate that term, but that's the way it was with breaking, essentially breaking people, right? Imagine how vulnerable this population

is now, right? And they're just, they're basically, they're seen as somewhat disposed with this trick.

than whatever. That's what these dehumanization things do. Now we can kind of, it's easier for us

to go along with the need to eradicate, to use the, you know, jings them in, the dictator of the Times term, and so that's happening, you know, people are fell and gone deaths are being considered suicides, right? This is now, we're talking going back to 1989, and, you know, so it's kind of normal, it's now normalized to that people that are fell and gone, it's okay for them to die. Is there a corollary in this country? I mean, can people, I mean, I understand,

conspiracies, I understand black markets, I understand big criminal enterprises that operate, you know, just underneath the surface. This isn't that, this is the government that we're talking

“about. I'm to present. And that, I think, is the first thing that Americans need to”

wrestle with. We just don't have any corollary that I can think of on that scale. I also

want to understand better how many fallen gong are incarcerated at the moment, and weegers for that matter. So, this is the tragedy, right? The tragedy is that for 14 or 15 years, nobody really does anything major international institutions effectively run cover for all this, and the Chinese communist party finds another group that's convenient in exactly this way. They're already dehumanized, they're different, racially different, they have a different religion, they're Muslim,

they're very isolated in the northwest of China and Xinjiang province strategically import region, by the way, to the Chinese Communist Party. They've been pushing Han, culture, and forced into marriage, and all sorts of stuff they're already. And now they dehumanize them further, they incarcerate them. So now we have another group where, frankly, the whole region itself is almost like a prison camp for what we hear, the huge part of the population has been

has had their vitals taken, not even just the incarcerated people over there, right? It's because the whole area of functions a little bit like a prison in itself. So, you can get these blooded, blood-type tissue type, all those measures, organs, scans on people that aren't even an actual prison, right? And this is what happens when you don't do it, when there's atrocity happening, and you just say, hmm, I guess it's their problem, right? The problem spreads. And frankly, now,

I was just talking with Pastor Bob Fu about this, actually, an episode of my show, American Thought Years ago, about to publish, I've been seeing increasing dehumanizing rhetoric against Christians. He's seeing that, too, right? And what does that mean? Well, I don't know what it means. I just know that the CCP has utter contempt for human life, and particularly for any group, any person that doesn't say, yes, the Chinese Communist Party is supreme, at least performatively.

And so we have the Zion Church being rolled up. We have Catholic, clergy being put under a strict or control. We have this increase in dehumanizing language. Where does it lead? I say, let's

“how about we draw the line and just at least stop being complicit in our part, right, in this?”

Well, better to know, you know, better to look at it if it can be seen. I think maybe that's the other thing. It's so big. Like Nancy Guthrie's still missing in real time, as we discussed this. This is one woman who has become a household word. One person has gone missing. And that seems to, you know, represent our capacity to worry about such a thing, right, in some kind of context. Meantime, during the period of time, she's been missing. And I assure hope she's okay, you know,

but ISIS found what 3,200 kids that had been missing had been lost and come over the border, right, 3,200. We can't think about that. That's too horrible and too big. The idea that a few thousand kids were brought in here illegally and then just lost to the wind. It's just not even really reported on. This is so much bigger. It's bigger, but you know, there is one, I can tell you

“one change, which I think is very positive. Okay. At least for me, it's a sea change. Okay. And that is,”

when I talk to people and I talk to people a lot, especially with this book now, all I'm doing is talking

about forced organ harvesting with people, basically. Okay. And everybody's saying, "Oh, my God,

this is horrible." People are not clueling out. I haven't had a single person do that thing that back in 20 years ago was frankly the norm, not everybody, but quite common. I would say the majority. They're not doing that anymore. Somehow things have shifted a bit. I would love to see it to be, you know, key breaking news, right. Sometimes just the fact that it's been happening for so long,

how do we get breaking news? Well, when Chen Peaming, the survivor came out public, when public for the time, we got a news cycle. At least in the UK, that this is what was interesting. In Europe, and in the UK, there was a significant news cycle around this. There were articles written. I'm not going to say I was jealous of it. I was incredibly impressed at some, you know, people I'd

never heard of wrote articles about this issue that were, you know, excellent, well-sourced,

“well-done, thoughtful. I think telegraph UK comes to mind as one particularly notable example, okay?”

But for some reason, not here. But then it's gone. But then it's gone. The article comes out, people read it. We clutch our pearls and we shake our head and we say those dug-unk Chinese, what are they up to now? And then I knew issues out and some other headline. Do you know the story of, "Oh, God, Chuck, what was his name?" The guy who snuck into a concentration camp. -Polekky? -Yeah, you let's ski. -The Poleski, yeah, yeah, we don't. The Poleski, yeah, we don't.

-The Poleski, yeah, that guy. -Yeah, okay. Yeah. So it sounds like, you know, I mean, you can certainly pronounce his name, but I don't know that. -He is Polish. He is Polish, of course. -He's evenly extremely Polish. -You really are about as Polish as a guest, yeah, yeah. He sneaks into or deliberately allows himself to be arrested. And what it was at Auschwitz, Burkka was in Auschwitz. And he gets in there to basically be an embedded reporter.

He takes the notes, you know, sees what he sees, and then escapes. It tells the world. And I think he goes back, right? And he started, wasn't he doing some underground,

broadcast or something? -Yeah, he, I mean, it's in the volunteer, an incredible book to read,

“if you want to read about Vito Piletski, or I don't know how he pronounced it in English, actually.”

-It's like pronounceable. -Yeah, it's un-for-nouncible. But, yeah, I know it. I mean, there's people that are heroes like this. But, right, they exist. There's not many, but they exist, but my point out. -I think it's your point. There is an arc. There's a chronology, like, on its way to becoming the truth. A claim has to go through various stages. And early on, those stages are incredulity, skepticism,

doubt. And the people making the claim are dismissed as lunatics. And then less lunatic. And then, well, maybe, maybe not a lunatic, but, you know, we need more evidence. And then, okay, well, that's some evidence, but we're going to need, there he is, Pelekki. -Yeah. -It's like a serious guy, right? -Dude, all business.

“-And by the way, the horror was, I think he was, uh, I think he was executed. -Yeah, he was killed by the Soviets.”

-Yeah, after the war. -Yeah, after the war. -Yeah, for spying, I guess. -Well, here, let me just land a plain real quick on this one point, because I think there might be a corollary after all. There, that guy is blowing the whistle about what's going on in Auschwitz. It's a first-hand witness, he sees it, and he tells the world, or a chunk of the world. And the tail starts to grow, but people are still like, no, no, man, there's no way.

-No, it can't be that. -But it can't be. -Very famously, another poll, uh, Jan Karsky, you know, actually travel to the UK, travel to America, talked with the AG, US AG, if you'll explain further, and there's this famous line that actually is, kind of, speaks to this very directly. He said the line is that when he's confronted later with the fact that he didn't do anything after Jan Karsky

exposed this whole thing to him. He says, it's not that I said that this young man was lying, it's that I was unable to believe him. And now it's really interesting about this, right?

Is that this is interpreted in different ways, too, right? Some people, I always interpreted it,

the charitable way, which is just like, I was unable, I just simply couldn't, I couldn't bring myself to believe that it was true, right? Some other people interpreted it in a more cynical way, which is that he was not allowed to accept that it was true by his, by the political reality of the situation. I don't know where I can't, I hadn't had chances to speak with him, you know? But it's interesting, right? In both cases, it's a case in point, however, isn't it?

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“M. Drive for men.com. I think, I mean, if you look at all truth, going along that evolutionary”

bend, if you believe that's a, that's it's journey and I do, then it's always kind of instructive,

maybe even fun every now and then to, you know, try and check yourself and figure out, well, where are we on the, it's like the five stages of grief. You know, where are we on our path to acceptance? And obviously, I know the answer to this, you believe at some point in the future, the claims in here will be accepted, not just as, as fact, but as a conclusion foregone, obviously, right, how long you think that'll take? Well, if we do our jobs well, a few years,

isn't this what we're trying to do here, like to try to help people, this is one of these issues,

Mike, that people coming, I mean, this is the whole purpose of the book, right? I feel like there's been a sea change in people's ability to conceive, maybe a vehicle, right? And then there's all

“sorts of reasons we could describe partially, I think it's the seeing the CCP welding people into”

their homes during COVID, right? It's just barbaric and useless, just simply a non-productive expression of power because they could because they could be totalitarian. It was the, we saw the totalitarian mind at work for no benefit, actually, other than totalitarian being totalitarian, really, and just really, you know, harming their own population and, yeah, I mean, just, I think that played a role in helping people conceive of this, okay? I do too. Yeah. I do too, but I also don't want it

to be so, like, if we remember the Nazis as simply bad, right, and we put them into some sort of trope of just laughing maniacally and twisting their moustaches and just being villainous and bad and simple, we miss the point. 100%. We just miss it, man, there's a great interview with who played Christophe Vault Waltz in, I guess it was in Glorious Bastards, maybe? Or, oh, the right, right, right. Yeah,

“yeah, I know, like the Jew Hunter, yes, and his, his interlocutor asks him, how did you do it?”

How were you able to embody evil so incarnate that it lept off the screen the way it did and his response was appeared to be one of genuine confusion. He said, I don't know, I don't know what you're talking about. He wasn't evil, not the way I played him. And that explains it all. He's like, that character was so compelling because he didn't play the trope. You really believed he was who he was because he didn't let the stereotype take it over. And so when I imagine the big bad authoritarian state

welding people into their homes, I look at that and I immediately go, wow, that's the personification of terror, right? That's about as bad as it gets. But I think there was probably, there were probably other people on the street and in the neighborhood who saw it happening. And while it may have been fearful while it may have frightened them, I'd wager that it also elicited a certain level

They were glad it wasn't them being welded in there. But you know what? Those people, they didn't

“follow the rules. And now we can see a consequence for stepping out of line and we can see the power”

come in and even though we look at it and recoil, you know, why wouldn't the masses rush out and simply overpower the thugs and free those poor people? Something else is in us and it sucks. It's the fault in our stars. Absolutely. Well, it's real. No, it's extremely real. And you're just reminding me, I had a prominent Cuban dissident on my show on America Thought Leaders. Some time ago now, but he made this one comment that it kind of blew my mind and it went

five. I clipped it immediately and it went viral to summarize. He says that there's something

about totalitarian rule that certain types of people rather enjoy. It takes away your own power over yourself, okay? But strangely, it actually gives you a lot of power over others.

“IE, if you want to make someone else's life a living hell, you can do that. Now you actually have”

a kind of power that in a free society you don't have, right? Because you can by, by performatively saying the correct thing that would be politically correct or accusing someone of being politically incorrect. Now you can have, you can stick the whole power of the state on them. Yes, it's the little tyrannies that are in some ways the most terrible. And, you know, to keep the metaphor going, it's the routing out the June X store in hiding. It's routing out. Oh, you know what, my neighbor

is not wearing the mask. They did not get the vaccine, right? It's once you can create that dynamic in the, in the proletariat. Within the hoi, poloi. Then you've got the power because that's easy to manipulate. And that's the thing we're talking about. Why in the world aren't the many thousands of people, many thousands of Chinese people who are complicit in at least 90,000 harvestings a year. How have they managed to remain quiet and maybe that's closest we can get. Because they

will have to, they would have to go out and say I'm murdering people for organs. And there's a few that have, by the way, you know, it takes a very special person. Listen, I remember one of the most horrifying, even thinking about it makes me want to cry frankly, horrifying, but powerful and courageous things I've ever read in my life was an essay in, uh, there's a group called

“Pit Parents, PIT, PIT parents, parents, uh, with inconvenient truths about trans. I believe that”

was the kind of, it's a weird acronym, okay? They wrote a book of essays about parents in this one parent who trans their child, right? And there's this argument made that if you've done that,

you're never going to admit to yourself that you did something wrong, okay? For obvious reasons,

I probably don't need to explain, but this woman does, this in this essay, this woman understands, and I, I don't know if I can tell this story was staying composed because it's so heartbreaking and powerful. Because in the one hand, she knows what she's done and she knows she got caught up in this Mania, right? And she thought she was doing good and she did terrible things to her child and then she has the courage to say, I did this and I was wrong and I did horrible things

and this could never happen again. So on the one hand, we kind of hate her for what she's done. I mean, if you're reading this and you agree, right, on the other hand, you're shocked at the unbelievable courage. It took to be the one person who dared to write it, to admit it publicly and try to share with people, to stop others from making the same mistake, right? So there are a few people like her in this forced organ harvesting industry. If came up, Annie, right, her, she

came out, I mean, really, it was her husband doing it, but she risked everything to come out and tell the story, you know, a surgeon and virtote, you know, who before this whole industry scaled operated on a living person, you know, with armed guards around him to be fair, knowing what would

There's people like this and those are the, you know, I mean, they've done horrible things, but they're also heroes because they're trying to make peace with God or they're trying to somehow you know, find a penance, find a way redemption, looking for redemption, absolutely.

“But I think it's so rare. I mean, in all these, whenever it comes again to these atrocities,”

how many Nazis, people who are, you know, involved, I mean, think about the millions of people that were involved in exterminating Jews and world or two, how many said later, oh, I did wrong. Right, and I mean, you know, and this is the horrible part, you know, I, it's incredibly important what you said that we don't want to imagine at these villains being like the, you know, the twisty mustache or whatever, because no, like this is, well, okay, I'm going to mix a whole

bunch of ideas here, but sold to heatson, right, the line between good and evil cuts through

every human heart. I always think about that, right, exactly. Goulogor, Goulogor, Goulogor,

well, that's his magnum opus, right. That's, yeah, exactly. And cancer ward. And if you're into a shorter version a day in the life of Ivan Denisovich, if we want to read a book in a day, that'll give you a picture of what the Goulogor Capalico does, I would recommend that,

“but people have short attention spans these days. That's why I tend to recommend,”

recommend that one, but it's, what I was going to say is most of Germany was involved, and that's just the truth, right. That's, that's the truth that we have to face. It wasn't the Nazis. It was Germans. And, you know, my father-in-law, when he was in Germany, I know this because I had the conversation with him, right, when he was on one of these death trains, he wouldn't have dreamed of jumping from the train. He, that's how he's he, one of the reasons

he lived of the many sort of near misses he had during the Holocaust. He was traveling from Buchenwald east. When the front was advancing, right, and they were moving the evidence. So to speak, of course, with a lot of people dying along the way. He wouldn't have dreamed for a second of jumping out of that train in Germany because he knew he would be taken in immediately to be killed basically, because this is the problem with your challenges. They basically create this internal

external complicity. It doesn't mean there aren't lots of heroes. There are. There's lots of

heroes in China as we speak, billions doing amazing things, okay. But the problem is is that these

systems, they, they try to get, you're, get at your soul, right, they get, they wear down your moral high ground. They make you participate. And then you feel like you're kind of going along. You don't have that energy anymore to say, "No, this is wrong. I will not participate." And of course, but some people do, some do. And those are the heroes. Those are the people that we want to think. Those are our heroes. What is that trait? I mean, I've read conflicting things on this.

I think we can fuse it with courage. We just think, "Well, those people are very brave, but it's not quite that." It's, I think, glad well talks about it in terms of disagreeability.

“You need to be disagreeable in order to be in that cohort that doesn't go along with the riot, right?”

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this large. The scholarship application window is open right now from February 1st to March 31st each year. Apply today for a scholarship or donate at Folds of Honor dot org slash scholarship. Do you know what another thing is? My eccentric. This is Dennis Prager wrote a piece. We had we carried it a few years back. I remember he was commenting on this. What were the

he says, I forget what this maybe disagreeableness was the second characteristic. I always forget

what the characteristic was but one of them which really struck me because it's so obvious the moment you think of it right? As centricity why it's just people that just don't do things like everybody else. I'm much more prone to be heroic in situations where you're demanded to follow the crowd and doing something horrible. But this is the difference between a characteristic and a

“virtue. Courage is a virtue. Exentricity is a characterist but that's why Prager's I know the piece”

you're referring to. It's so interesting to unpack somebody through their characteristics. It's a Jason to virtue but you can start to understand why you have to have different cohorts. I take it back somewhat this idea of villains. They're there for sure. Like Mangala clearly obviously Hitler. You can go down the list of Nazis who check that box right? And then they're the other Nazis who are Nazis both a small end. But then they're the Germans and it's much more interesting

to talk about the good Germans and the Germans in general. The persuadables I would call them. They're the one. They're the fat part of the bad. That's why like in China obviously there's a surgeon he knows what he's doing. I'd hold him to a different standard and there may be their guards in the operating room and okay hold him to another standard. But there are people around who are

“directly in it who know. And that's why everything we're saying matters because they're the ones”

who are being shackled without chains but nevertheless constraint and they don't have that characteristic. We're the character. Right. So you know you're reminding me of a couple of things here. So there's an amazing piece in tablet magazine which David Samuel wills wrote some years back called The Rower. I strongly recommend reading it. It's a story of a man named. Let's see if I get his name right. I'm not good with names usually but I think it's Nud Samuelson off the top of my head.

Okay. How do you forget Nud? And I mean it's just such a beautifully written piece but the

essential story is that Nud was an Olympic roar during the war and he was the one that rode

on his skiff. The Jews of Denmark to sweeten to safety. That's his claim to fame and Nud. When you I mean I don't know I think David was very meticulous in trying to stay true to Nud's real life story. It's honestly unbelievable you know he actually David met him as a kid in New York City. There it is. That's the piece exactly. Let's see if I hope I got his name right. David's about. Well David I definitely got right. Nud Christianson.

Nud Christianson. Sorry. Okay. But I've been struggling with this idea. Right. I've been reading there's a book that I referenced in Kill to Order called Political Ponderology and in it a man named Andre Wobba Chefski makes the case that communist systems are pathocratic. In other words, they elevate the psychopaths in our society. In particular over any other political system.

“Like that's their problem. That's why you get the Gulog and so it's a very compelling argument.”

A little bit difficult to read but incredibly compelling argument and I think there's truth to that. So I'm kind of living with this idea that there's just these people out there that are just structurally I don't know. See. Well Bachevski this was fascinating. He defines evil as he didn't want to go into the metaphysical stuff at all. He just said people that have these psychopaths and social personalities already now. It's called psychopathic tendencies. That's evil.

You just said yeah. So you don't want to society. This is why communist societies are so horrible. Right? Because they empower evil people. Right? They put them in positions of power and then those people push that through the society in different ways. Not only is it just part of the story but when I read the roar, right? What struck me and I remember I called David after

this, right? Because I was so moved by it, right? I was like wait a second. If there's these people

that are structurally evil, maybe there's also people who are structurally good. They can't help themselves and this guy was like this, right? Like he was a noble man. I think he might have been been like in the royal family. Maybe not the royal family. I don't remember. But anyway, the point is this guy was kind of sad. He couldn't have just been sort of neutral, could have not done anything. But no, he was part of the resistance. He had to be. Like he

Jews were going to save them all. Okay? We're going to roll them. You know, it's just he couldn't help himself. Right? Well, here's the great dichotomy. He's clearly in the minority. Of course,

to the power of literature and maybe another fault in our stars. But even though the vast majority

“of people who read that book would not do, would not did, they think they would. The vast majority”

of people who read the diary of Anne Frank figured, oh, you know what? She knocked on my door. Nice little Jewish girl, you know, bad guys chasing her, especially the super evil bad guys. Yeah, I'll save her. Come on in. We'll get in the attic. Would you really? Would you really let Anne Frank stay in your attic if you knew that the punishment is death? It's like sitting there watching Shindler's List, John. I'm guilty of it. I'm sitting there going, yeah, yeah,

that was brave. You know, I did done that for sure. But boy, it would have been scary. I don't know that I would have done that. What I do know is the vast majority of people didn't. And the vast

majority of people today in China aren't. And that never changed. Well, there's this famous photo,

“right, of the one guy that's not doing the Z-Kile in the picture, right? And everyone was like,”

I'd be that guy. I actually think in most cases, that's not even, you see, that's so interesting, because that's not something where you're saving somebody. You're just, you're performatively expressing obedience or allegiance. Yeah. What does it take for a human being to choose to not do that in the face of mass power being projected through a population and saying, this is what you need to do, right? But how was that guy, you know, A, what happened to him? I don't know. But how was

he thought of in that moment? Because when you're in the moment, and you're the one who refuses to conform, you're not immediately, you're not immediately, you're not immediately, you're not not loaded. No, no, you're not loaded at all. You're, you just lost your job, which is what I, for by, understand, happened to this guy. But sort of the cobwebs, I'm remembering a bit of this story. I don't want to say it because I don't remember exactly, but he had his own

reasons for not doing that, making him disagreeable, perhaps. Okay? Or, in this case, are eccentric. I think maybe the point of all this is that there's this other component that is really germane to your book and to Vittal Plecki and to Piletsky. Klettsky. Yeah. Um, and all of it, and that's the, as Kamala Harris would say, at the passage of time, the time, in passing, in the passage of time. Well, right, we, we, like, when I look at the protests in Minneapolis,

and just the last couple of weeks, you know, I see those people in a very specific way. Personally, I see a lot of misguided sound and fury. I see a lot of performative acting out.

“That's just what I see. I don't think that's what they see. I think they see themselves as righteous”

and brave. And maybe the way the guy who didn't zig-hile saw himself in that moment. And so it's very confusing. This is how the moment. In the moment. How the knot hit, learn the Nazi soldier to the population. You know, listen, this is, I keep thinking about the one guy. This is B more like this guy. Yes, correct. Easy to say, 60 years later. That's right. Right. Yeah. Easy to say. So Hannah Arant, who kind of studied Nazis after the war, right, was, you know, there's this famous term

that we hear, but the banality of evil book, right, of hers. And basically what she figured out

was even some of these people that were, you know, monsters in effect. When she, you know, interviewed them and figured out what they were about and how they thought about things. They weren't monsters actually and their own thinking about themselves and what they were doing. They're just like, hey, that's just what we were doing. Yeah. Look, that's such a great photo Chuck. I mean, so I'm thinking of Colin Kaepernick. Okay. I'm not down with that. That whole kneeling thing. I

struck me as performative and I didn't buy it. But if he sees that photo, he thinks he's that guy. You think he's that guy. And who am I to say he's not? A lot of people think he is. You're, your micro to say you're dead gone. Right. Yeah. I'm like, right, because it's so obvious he's not that guy in any way, man or shape or form. I don't, and again, I don't know him personally. The machine is behind him in doing that. Right. The differences that guy, very clearly, the machine

is not behind him. Right. Okay. Right. Yeah. You can't even compare these situations other than

That's right. But they're that guy. That's fascinating. Right. It's because in a sliding door all universe and an alternative universe, a Germany wins, right? And Japan wins. And the Nazis are elevated. Nobody circling him and saying, be that guy. They're saying that, that's stupid bastard didn't get the memo. You know, what an idiot. There's all, there's one in every crowd. It'd be that. You know, and that's just another example of history being written by the winners,

right? And then we get to look back and we get to second guess everything. All of that is to say that

this book is personally, I'm so delighted that it got written in part because you came here to talk about it. And I was honored to write the blurb in it. You know, apologies to those of you listening.

“We're not taking a deep dive into the details because we already did that. And if you want to go”

back and listen to that episode, you should know, don't listen to the episode by the book. You should absolutely buy the book. But look, it's like, it's like that Tolkien quote, I forget which book it is. But it's like, you know, the tale grew in the telling. It wasn't a reference to it became more fantastical or or made up or exaggerated. It just took hold.

Tales take hold. They have to be told and told again. And then people need to be shown. And then

sometimes they have to be grabbed by the scruff of the neck. Their face has to be pushed in it. We're in, I think, the evolution of all of that. This is a new level because killed to order. You're not tiptoeing around this anymore. There's bodies and bones all over the front of this thing. I mean, you're you're going for it. When this cover was, you know, I asked a friend who I work with on a few projects to because he's kind of been known to be good with getting books

out. Okay. So he made this cover or me and I looked at it a little while. That is intense. And I showed it to a whole bunch of people and they thought to themselves. People said all sorts of

interesting things, right? But ultimately, I realized that what's on that cover is an understatement,

not an overstatement, right? That was the key. Like, I don't want to, I don't want to ever pretend that what we're talking about. I don't want to make it bigger than it is. In fact, the 60 to 90 thousand a year. It's horrible. I mean, how can I be sure? Well, I mean, let's, let's game out the argument of how you come up with 60 to 90 thousand. You see, like the point is it's an under, it's actually, it's a very conservative estimate ultimately. And so similarly, the cover, you know, a lot of people

have been killed to order murdered for their organs in China. How many exactly? I cannot tell you. I don't know. It's a state secret. People will be murdered for trying to tell that number. And they don't even know themselves because it's somewhat compartmentalized. No one's sitting there trying to figure out the total number, right? Of course, the official numbers are all, you know, just they exist for propaganda purposes, nothing else. So it's funny how this played out.

Because even our producer Irene is my producer is watching and the over there. And you know, she was vehemently against this cover. She's like, "Has going to work? Everyone's going to hate it."

“I'm embellishing a little bit. But I think she understands, I think she's grown to appreciate it as well.”

And as I did, and I think it's, I think it will help people understand what we're talking about. We're talking about something that, you know, that some of the legislation that's now passed the house, actually, this bill passed unanimously. I think they're working on changing the name a little bit. But the Falun Gong Protection Act, I think they're working to change the name to make it clear that this protection act is for anyone who would be organ-harvested, even though the Falun Gong were

the dominant group over the years. Keep that on, Chuck. Okay. I mean, really. I'm, you know, listening to you talking on, it's like, I think I was in the seventh or eighth grade when the teacher put on, was it night or night and fog, Ely Vizel?

“Oh, I'm not, I think it's night and fog. It's a more documentary, right? No, it's Ely Vizel.”

Ely Vizel. Yeah, Ely Vizel. Yeah. And Lific Holocaust survivor. Very short book, right. But just in Controvertably, I mean, the evidence is there. It was the, and the film of the same name. Just had, I mean, look, when you see piles and piles of corpses, piles and piles of corpses, you know, I don't know that they would show that today in the eighth grade.

we made finding many is we had footage of him opening up an old cigar box that he had collected

of photos he had after the war. So what people were doing after the war, this is going to sound really crazy in Macaubra, but you know, Warsaw had been completely blown out. Like it was, it was, the city was just, you can see it's just like piles of rubble and people trying to figure out what to do. Some people were taking photos, had taken photos of some of these atrocities, and were actually selling these photos. And somehow he bought some of them, right? Like it's just

“kind of a weird sound so crazy, but you can imagine it was a very different situation. Sure, right?”

And so he has this old cigar box with a bunch of these photos that were, so I was starting to have

who took these photos? How did you get them? He said, yeah, people were just kind of selling them

on the roadside trying to get by, right? And he had this. So that's part of the reason we have this evidence. It's uncorrupt, it's unbelievable, right? It's because of these, you know, people trying to be entrepreneurial after the war when they have nothing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, in some way, I mean, the guy's up in the Eagles Nest, you know, taking whatever they could take, it's strange momentos, you know, but piece of, I met a guy a couple of years ago who was 101,

and he was over there, and he went into his desk drawer and he pulled out a piece of carpet. Just to, he had taken his knife and he had caught a piece of the carpet out of what's the name of the Eagles Nest? You, uh, it starts with a, not some German name, Stoke Theo, but it's, but it's like, you're right. It's so interesting when you know you're in a consequential, uh, time, place, moment. You want to grab onto something? Here a bunker.

No, no, no, no. Oh, row, the one up in the, up in the mountains, at the end of where Eagles, all the Wolfs' layers. Sorry. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I visited that actually. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah.

And so wheelchair shanets and Polish, by the way, of course it is. Yeah. We never, like, that tendency

today, I think, might be called a selfie. It's become so homogenized and dispersed that anybody can, I mean, this, this idea of watching the present unfold through a monitor, as opposed to simply watching Metallica play on stage, right? If you're up, your James Headfield, and you look out, and all you see are 10,000 people watching you through this screen. You know, and, uh, I find that amazing, our desire to grab onto Memento's and talismans, you know. And in a way,

you've got to do that with the cover of a book. You've got to get people's attention. You have to, you know, you've got a story to tell, and the facts aren't enough. You've got to tell it in a

“way. And that's why I mentioned, I think double check with Chuck. I think it's night and fog. I want”

to get that right because it's famous. I'm aware of this, but I couldn't tell you the name gradually. Well, night and fog was was was was a French film, uh, it made in 1956, and it was directed by Elaine Resney. And it's about the Nazi concentration case. Okay. That's it. Okay. That's it. But what was Ellie's biography called for some reason that night is in my head. Sorry to be pedantic folks. I just don't want people. I got a letter to the other day. If somebody, I'm

mentioning, although I shouldn't be. What's Ellie's last name? W E Vizelle. Ellie Vizelle. Yeah. So W E I SEL. Super famous lived. I mean, long, long time. In fact, so this is what I was going to comment on, right? This fell in gone protection act, which is being kind of updated. One of the things that's requires America to do, right? One is America's policy should be to stop all kind of cooperation around this stuff with communist China. That's kind of a no-brainer. Another one is to sanction

“people that are involved, but a third one is just to assess under the Ellie Vizelle Act, right?”

Which is atrocity act, whether this is in fact an atrocity. And of course, I'll tell you. Absolutely, it's an atrocity, but it would be good to officially know that, right? Yes, kidding. Yeah. No kidding. The book was called Night. Thank you. 1960. Yes. Right. So at the top of the funnel, we must see it. We must acknowledge it. We must call it for what it is. And then we can go about the business of

eventually accepting it, maybe doing something about it. And then, then we can go about the business of denying it, right? I mean, I just bring all this up because how in the world can you have such

after all this time, all that proof, all those firsthand witnesses, those biographer, all of it, it's there. And I mean, you're talking about six, seven million deaths, not 90,000 to a year, which is mind-boggling, but exponentially more. And we still, we're still dealing with

“flat earthers. We're still dealing with it. So, and part of the reason is quite honestly that we,”

it's hard for us to fathom, that such things can happen. I really, I'm not excusing that,

by the way, just for the record, right? And of course, there's always massive propaganda

operations that are looking to take advantage of this, frankly, the CCP people, some of this stuff, there's considerable evidence around that, too. But part of it is just simply decent human beings do not want to believe these things. It's part of our nature. I'm glad that, and that's something I'm glad for, you know, way, right, in a way. But it's extremely inconvenient when you're trying to expose atrocity. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I want to go back to my thing, too, for a minute, because it's

the most uncomfortable thing about the book for me is that you don't really pose it. You don't really

hit it on the head that hard. But if you really think about it, it's so personal. It really does

come back to you. I don't mean you, you, but I mean anybody who's listening to this, who feels outraged by this, needs to, in the same moment, really imagine what they would do. If they're son or daughter or mom or dad or loved one, wife, husband, whatever, could be saved by simply putting in the order, simply putting in the order. You don't have to get your hands dirty. You don't even have to look at it. But if you knew, would you do it anyway? I don't know what the answer to that is,

but it's not flatter. I know an answer, though. I have, like, I think this, it sort of crystallizes an idea that as we educate our young people, which is, by the way, something that everyone here knows, you're deeply involved in yourself. We've forgotten that a key element of education is just teaching people how to be good. It's a central issue of education, right? What it wherever it comes from, right? And so teaching people to know deeply, right? Not just because in your got, you know,

that this is wrong, you do, actually, I think, right? But to know why and why you could never do this,

even though, you know, you might get some kind of pleading benefit from it, i.e. an extension of life.

“So there's there are much more important things than that. We need to remember that,”

that needs to be a central part of our education virtue, right? Where is that in the Chinese curriculum? I wish I could tell you that on the books officially, the greatest good in that society is maintenance of the supremacy of the Communist Party. That's how they view it, and that's how they teach it. And that's why, when you're young, you get put in everybody, basically becomes either a young pioneer or a youth league member or joins the Communist Party. You know, it's crazy. This, again,

something incredibly important to understand, but hard to imagine, right? And this is why, so look, you know, how utilitarian bioethics is an important, you know, theme, theme in this book, right? Utilitarian bioethics is the medicine or the health of the greatest good for the greatest number, right? But in that, the extreme of that is actually a communist society where that greatest good is the survival and supremacist of the Communist Party of the Vanguard, really of the

extremely affluent people have taken the wealth of the nation for themselves and view the, and are going to keep that power forever, using this ideology and this structure that's been development somehow is incredibly affected by bamboo'sling, everybody else that is to think that there might be something good in this. What did you think, kind of? What did you think when you heard Mom Downey talking about the the warm, the warm embrace of collectivism as opposed to all that

“rugged individualism nonsense? The truth is, I don't know him personally, and I don't know”

if he believes it or if this is, you know, just something that is helpful politically, but

it always leads to, right? And everyone, you know, this sort of socialism, right? Socialism is a stepping stone,

because the communists view socialism as the stepping stone to the, you know, the real system, right? Which is always having since Lenin, right? The ability to push massive coercive power through a population to ensure that it functions the way it does, because people aren't going to comply otherwise. They're not going to participate. It's an anti-human system. It's so difficult, because it sounds like if I say this to someone that's been taught, that it's all about just being fair,

“right? That's how it sells itself, right? It sells itself by saying, the reason you don't have”

everything that you want is because the rich guy took it from you, or the guy that, you know, the sort of the modern cultural variance, or, you know, we could debate that, but these, you know,

critical theories all have an infusion of communism in them. There's some, a press or a press

exactly, it's like it's the, it's the person that's the different color that's the cause of it, or the person that's the different or sexual orientation that's the cause of it, or whatever, or the person that's thin in one case, right? When it goes to fat studies, right? This person is oppressing the person that isn't thin, right? I mean, it's kind of crazy stuff, but it sets, going back to the original variant, right? The pious fixed, and the only reason the rich people

are rich is because they took it from you. That's a horrible sales pitch, right? I mean, we've been, we've struggled so many people have struggled with the idea, prosperity is real, the pie gets increased. Why do people work for others? Well, it's because if you work for that person, you're better off yourself. Make sure that person is even more better off, and someone will say, well, that's not fair. I want, I don't, why does he get to be more better off than I'm

better off? Well, but can't you be appreciative of the fact that you're better off, too? Like,

“you know, and that guy gets, should get, should get some benefit from helping you with that, too, right?”

None of that means that anything, right? In the communist worldview, it's all about, but it's the point is it's rhetoric. It's not true. It's a, it's a core falsehood from the very beginning, right? And this, again, it's like, it blows my mind, but I'll tell you something else. I didn't even understand where prosperity came from until the last 10 years of my life. I was a biologist.

I was an evolutionary biologist. We didn't learn that. I never learned this. I never studied

a, you know, basic economics. Thank you, Tom Sol, for, for helping me understand so many things, right? It's, you know, how incentive structures work, whatever, many, many things, right? But just, yeah, like division of labor creates prosperity, innovation creates prosperity, right? The pie gets bigger. We create that for usself. We help each other, right? It's not this, and this is, by the way, there's a book by James Lindsay and Helen Plucros, cynical theories, okay? All of these marksy and

theories are cynical. They just, they believe that they, they don't believe in the warmth of their relationship. You know, we enjoy each other's company, right? I hope, don't, Mom, I got a lot of word. You're talking. No, but the big point is that it's not, no, all, every relation, the only meaningful relationship in our lives, according to these, you know, the communist and the Marxian way of life, is the power play. Really deep inside, whatever people are seeing here, what's really

happening is me angling to try to exert my power over you. And you, or no, actually, in this case, I think it's you because you're the more, you know, prominent one, right? So you're the oppressor. So I'm actually struggling against you because you're trying to press me, and I'm have to figure out how to, because I've achieved my critical consciousness. Now, I have to figure out how to take what's mine from you, Mike. That's what they teach. This is what this ideology is. It's not about

fairness. It's about kind of enshrining the idea that if I'm jealous of someone else, if I envy what they have it saying, yes, you are right. You deserve to be, get that, live that energy and take what's yours finally. And then guess what? The moment that those, the people that run the revolution take power, you meet the new boss. Exactly. Same as you old boss. Well, frankly, in many cases,

“I think in all cases, actually, a lot worse. Yeah. Right. So that's how it plays.”

I want to go back for a minute to something you said about. Like there's a difference between trying to teach a kid, the difference between good and evil. It seems obviously a thing to say in most literature and, you know, great art grapples with that. But the more nuanced thing is

That's interesting. And I think it was Thomas Wolf. I read an essay years ago

that tried to answer that. And he gave an example of, if you're with your kid today and you walk into the corner store, then you see him palm a Snickers bar and slip it in his pocket. Well, clearly that's bad. It's time for a teachable moment. So you call him over, you call the pride or over. Son, put it back. Listen, that's a bad thing to do and it's bad because if everybody did that, this poor guy would be out of a job and we would have chaos and our society

wouldn't work right because stealing, you know, it's just economically, not in our mutual interest. I don't do that. You know, 100 years ago, the same kid would have got boxed in the years,

you know, they would have put it back on the shelf and say, look, you don't want to do that son

because if you do, you'll go to hell. It's very simple. It's very simple. So how do you teach

“good today? Do you think of it in those extremes or terms or is there something else to it?”

There's, there's something that you're, again, I keep citing Thomas Sol, he's just so awesome, I guess, but I can't believe he's still around. He's still doing it. He's still doing it. He's still doing it. I'm going to totally mess up this one, but it's essentially that sort of the history of the last recent years is that of replacing what worked with what sounded good or something like that. Okay, and it's, it's beautiful. It's beautiful because that's kind of right. Like, you know,

this 10 commandments in the Judeo Christian tradition, just a lot of really good ideas. Like,

this is not these are not like exclusive, even to the Judeo tradition. These are like basic rules for society to be able to function and that have been figured out over a long period of time. And so, you know, it seems to me like this, the whole kind of progressive approach has been to say, "Ah, those things do we really need those?" You know, we have much better ideas, right? And in some cases, these people are serious. They think these are much better ideas, but it's like,

so what you're going to push those through a society and just see how it happens without, like, you know, thinking it through a little bit, and then think that there might have been some wisdom in these, I mean, this is, I call them kind of universal values. A lot of those things. They're not exclusive to the Judeo Christian tradition at all. We've been in a trance, young. You know,

“we've been beguiled, I think, for the last five or six years and a lot of different ways. And”

yeah, longer, probably so, probably so, I mean, look, my own residency bias is just like, I think, you know, we will look back. I'm so curious to see how, like, when we look back 150 years, God, it's just so easy to dismiss, you know, what were you thinking, you know, what this whole slavery thing, what were you thinking? Same point is before. Like, well, I'll tell you, I wasn't there, but had I been alive back then, I certainly would have

engaged in that terrible, terrible institution. Like, how do I know? How do I know how I would have thought felt growing up in Georgia in 1840? If I may, okay, I think if you had been taught decent values, okay, right? I think it's okay for us to say, I don't think we need to kind of create this moral equivalency with everything. I think we should be able to tell ourselves, you know, what? If I may, okay, this is my thought here. I'm trying to articulate it, but we have to take that

question, ask yourselves, how can I make sure that if I was in that situation or my son or my daughter, someone in my field would we, how can I make sure that they would make the right choice, right, right? Because there are tools for this, actually, right? Because what's implicit to the question is sort of like, well, you don't know. If you're faced with the tough situation, of course, everyone's going to fold, right? But no, you don't need to. And actually, there's ways to

“educate people, I think, typically, through faith, who effective righteous faith systems, right?”

To, for people to know what the right thing to do is, and sometimes they might struggle with it, sometimes they might make their wrong decision. But, for example, and, you know, if you know, you're going to have to face your God and be judged, you might make the right decision faster, because it's not just, the decision isn't just for right now. The decision is for whole eternity, right? And that becomes a different equation. Consequences. Yeah, I mean, it's teaching

I like to think so. I also like to think I'd be brave and battle. I like to think that, you know,

you are brave and battle. You're doing it. You're living it. I hope it's kind of probably obvious to the people watching, right? I mean, maybe it's not obvious to you. The point is just that, that no, we're not all going to be the super, most courageous person every time and every single issue, like, nud, Christians, and, okay, which you would, who was, we're not usually like that, the jerk, right, who refuses to say, "Hile." Yeah, yeah, however, I do think, you know,

“you do mention these last five years. And I do think that there was a bit of a selection. I think”

a lot of people found a little bit of courage, where they didn't know. They would have, maybe before hand, they would have thought to themselves, yeah, I don't know what I would do. But I think a whole lot of people found out, man, maybe, maybe, I, there was a little bit of that courage in there. Even though we've been taught, we haven't been taught that this is a virtue, strangely, right? Courage is so unbelievably important, right, to be like, "Oh, this is like, you know, to figure

out what you believe in, know why you believe it, and try to live it," right? But you're past,

you're not always going to win. I mean, that's not always going to work. Sometimes you'll have fear.

It'll happen. That's just the human condition. But try, try, like, hell, right? Try. Look, I don't think you can be courageous without fear. Courage is overcoming the fear. If you don't have the fear and you do a brave thing, you're just a lunatic. You're missing a synapse, you know? You're like Alex Puntled that wants to be free solo. It goes back to these people that might be wired for just having to do good.

That's very interesting, right? Maybe they're actually they're not really good. I mean, this is, you know, this topic for another day, but no. This is the topic,

“you know, this topic is central to your excellent book. I think very few books do”

the work they intend to do purely between the covers. They have to do something that make you, you know, in a curcogardian way, you know, the unexamined life. You know, this book made me honestly ask myself, what in the world would I do? And I hate to even say that out loud because it should be obvious. If I have a chance to blow the whistle and stop this deplorable thing from happening, I'll do it. But if my daughter's life has come, not it. Maybe I'll just do one more.

It'll just give one more kidney out of this whole awful thing. Right. It was one more slave, one more, one more, that's thing. And then that's the thing in me that I'm most keen to overcome. And it's all, and it comes back, right? Right back to sorts of heats in that line between good and evil, right? And it's all, it's in us. And we have to make those choices. Give me the quote again. The line between good and evil cuts through every human heart.

It's one of the most beautiful things that I keep, I often think about it, actually.

“As we start to land the plane here, you mentioned Prager earlier. Be friendly with him?”

I haven't seen him since his accident. And yeah, but yes, we're friends. Yeah. Yeah, I think we are too. I haven't talked to him since his accident. I did a commencement speech at Prager University. He did the first one. I did the second one. And I saw him interview the other

day. And amazing grace. You know? Well, and you know, courage, I think, is it maybe the

a good word to include here, right? Well, yeah, yes, but, but humanity too, I mean, he fell in the shower. It's like my guy's up in the burying sea in the Deadliest Catch. And, you know, the, after years, the people who watch that show, when somebody dies, you know, it's going to be because of a rogue wave or a fire off the Pribblah file. And it's going to be some spectacular calamity. And, oh, but no, you know, I mean, that happens. But the star of that show, you know,

Phil Harris, he had an embolism. He died slowly and awkwardly and commonly. And in the process, touched millions of people because it was just suddenly so humid and so relatable. Then it's fell in the shower. And I was paralyzed from the larynx down. But his mind is still there. And there he is propped up being interviewed in prime time about his new book, what's it called, Chuck? What

that adversity, I just was, if there is no God, the battle over who defines good, oh, sorry,

“if there is no God, colon, the battle over who defines good and evil. You see some sort of relevant”

to our conversation, doesn't it? Why I bring it up, yeah, yeah, you know, the line of a good and evil cuts through everything. You know, we get to decide, you know, a lot of people fall in the shower. A lot of people have their entire life upended. A lot of people are suddenly smoot smitten that redefined and now they have all these decisions to make and some are rooted in

like you say, real courage, others in desperation. And it's just, it was amazing to see him

rise. And I want us to live in a society where we teach people that these decisions are ones that you're going to have to make in your life very likely and all in different contexts. Hopefully, not catastrophic contexts, but sometimes that'll be. And you can learn, it's teachable how to make the right decision, the morally correct decision, right? Think to figure it out, the best literature of history has been written to explain these questions. We just do F ski, want to, you know,

“crimes. It's just a part of it. Yeah. Well, look, that's why your book's important. It's for all the obvious”

literal reasons, attention must be paid and a travesty is unfolding and you've blown the whistle. But right under the surface, you know, this is a macro cover and it's a macro problem, but there's a lot of micro. A lot of subtexts. A lot of subtexts and a lot of deeply, deeply personal queries that can be explored. A lot of tires to kick. So look, I mean, we're in a world where it's very comfortable to put our heads in the sand on any number of things. And this thing

exists today because of that. And you are this disagreeable eccentric who is inviting people to pull their head out of the sand. And, you know, perhaps my final question is, are you still being invited to dinner parties? I mean, are you still on the, are you on the circuit? Are you? Oh, John's going to come over and he's going to bring his book, you know, the one with all the bones on the front. Well, we'll have to see because I'm still on the front end of that, right? Like right now,

as I was saying, you know, I wanted to say, you can do it, you know, because it's amazing that, you know,

Rob Schneider, if I may comment a little bit about Rob, please, I sort of imagined a lot of my life that he was kind of like his characters. It's stupid to imagine, I don't know why I imagine that, but one dimensional got a clownish. Yeah, exactly, exactly. It's just, it didn't make any sense because, of course, people aren't like their characters, most cases, right? Even that isn't he's a comedian and an actor, right? But just the humanity and like deep thoughtfulness of the man is astonishing.

And he paid a price. He's paid a price. He's paid a huge price for it. And he's, and it's painful to him. I know, right? Very, very painful to him. Yeah, he's made a decision. And like I am, so it's amazing to have, you know, people like yourself and people like him decide, hey, this is something I want to put my voice, my clout, you know, so to speak, that I've developed over years, my reputation

“behind, right? Because this is, I think that's part of the reason, too. I a lot of people haven't”

said something because maybe they were afraid. What if it turns out to be fake? What if it, you know, I'm there. I don't want to be, have you seen the wife files? I know. Huge show online, AJ Gentile does it. I'm going to talk to him. I hope next month. It's an ingeniously fun sort of take on the ex files where he looks at all manner of conspiracy theories, some really feel kind of out there. But he gives them their do and he lets his audience go along with the idea or the reasons that the

tail grew in the telling. And right? But then at the end, he's like, okay, now here's what's wrong with it.

And here's where it doesn't quite hold on. And my point is people love that. They, it's delicious. The story of it is, you know, gosh, you did we go to the moon? Let's really think it over. You know,

things. This is dangerous. I mean, I feel like I know you now. But it didn't, you know, the first time

you ran this by me. It took two years of me like thinking about it and reading up on it as best I could. And then it's just asking myself, you know, if the NBA could become so captured and if Hollywood could become so captured by all that money and all that power, and just all that China, well, then why wouldn't this be happening? It certainly seems plausible. So I'm betting on you. I'm betting you're right, because it feels right to me. And I wish it wasn't like I truly

“deep in my heart. I truly wish this was all a story. That's what it looks like. But shit.”

Well, here's my blur and the very front of your book. A lot of what you're about to read.

I heard directly from Yon when he first appeared on my podcast to talk about the multi-billion

dollar human organ trade in China. I had no idea our conversation would go viral or ruffle so many feathers were lead to this extraordinary book spoiler alert. As you read, you will likely experience the same mix of incredulity horror and disbelief that I did when Yon explained to me

“precisely how and why this atrocity has continued to unfold since 2000. But with every chapter,”

every page really, your skepticism will be challenged with some very uncomfortable facts and you

will be confronted with a simple choice to accept the claims here in its true or not. Frankly, I wish the evidence was flimsy or circumstantial or refutable. I prefer to live in a world where human beings are not wrongly imprisoned and routinely harvested for their parts. But I'm afraid that isn't the case. The evidence in this book is compelling and credible and the evidence demands of verdict. No matter how uncomfortable or upsetting the truth might be, such are the hazards

of pulling one's head from the sand and having a look around at a world in desperate need of improvement.

“How I was writing for me, you asked me to write a blurb. That's what I'm thinking about for”

for me and I bet a lot of people who read this are going to wrestle with the same thing. Well, you're a good man. Just but I'm not going to get emotional. Your book is officially out today. It's called "kill to order." It's not a comedy. But it's important. Thanks. Mike, thank you so much. It's coming out on the 17th. Wow, that is so cool. This episode is over now. I hope it was worthwhile. Sorry, it went on so long. But if it made you smile,

then share your satisfaction in the way that people do. Take some time to go online. And leave a sorry view. I'd ask, I'd to beg, I'd to be in the edge. But in this world, the advertiser's really like to judge. And you don't need to write a bunch, just find her too. All you've got to do is leave a quick past our review. And all you've got to do is leave a quick past our review. And I thought you got to do is leave a quick past our review. Not to do. You got to do is leave a quick past our review.

And all you got to do is leave a quick past our review. And all you got to do is leave a quick. Even if you hate. I've, I've, I've specially for you. Yeah. Thank you.