Fudgy vs. Cakey: A Deep Dive on Brownies with David Lebovitz

- That much further, you know?

- I've been running so much. (laughing) (upbeat music) - From King Arthur Bacon Company, this is Thing Spakers, now.

“I'm David's Mark and King Arthur's editor, director.”

- And I'm Jessica Battleana, staff editor at King Arthur of Bacon. Today, we're talking about really one of my favorite baked goods, brownies. (bell ringing) - Yeah.

- Who doesn't love a brownie? - They're one's favorite baked goods. I mean, not to take away from you and your originality, you are very rich of a person. However, this is one instance where you're just a penguin

is I think widely shared. - Yeah, for one. - For one. - I mean, there are outliers, people who don't like them, but many people.

- I feel strongly about them. I feel strongly that I love them, which I hardly ever say on the show. (laughing) We shouldn't start like a love and love list, you know.

But I brownies hold sort of as, I don't want to say a special place in my heart, but kind of 'cause it was like the first. - I would hate to say that. - I would hate to say that.

I don't want to get all emotional. - It's sorely in the day, but they were the first thing I learned how to bake. And I remember, I had a babysitter. She was, you know, several years older than I was

and she probably, she was actually like six months older. I feel like we're kids are babysitters, we're all so kids. But she had 17, she had a subscription to 17 magazine. 17 magazine for a while had a,

I don't want to say food section, but they did some food content. And there was a brownie recipe in there that I saw and I was like, I'm gonna do this. So I made those brownies a lot

and it was sort of, you know,

I'm always telling beginner bakers to pick a recipe

and just make it multiple times. - Yes, get your episode. - But I perhaps overdid it because I made those brownies like, I mean, it was all I made. It would be like I would show up, I would have brownies,

but I will say, I made like every possible error. - What age are we talking about? - I mean, I was probably 12. - So you were showing up where? - Oh, with the library.

- At the library? - Oh my gosh, library. - I brought the librarian's brownies 'cause that was like my hangout. - Oh my gosh, I brought the librarians from my friends.

I don't, I mean, they probably were not. They just were taking pity on. - Probably were, you were bringing them brownies. - I was bringing them brownies, but I was like, you know, you learn the hard way,

like what happens if I forget the eggs? What happens if I use salt and sugar? Like, what happens? If I have salt and sugar, like a cup of salt? - Just like, I don't know if I did the cup,

but I made errors as I was saying.

Like, they didn't always turn out,

but I kept coming back to that recipe. And I have since tried to find that, you know, I mean, they learned that should be able to find anything. - Yeah. - So I've been, I've looked for that recipe.

I don't remember exactly what was in those brownies, even though I made them so many times.

“I just remember that they were my preferred texture”

brownies. - And here's where we're getting right to meet of the matter. - Right exactly. - Is that true?

- A dividing line with so many people. Is there, is there a cakey brownie person, or are you a fudgey brownie person? - Yeah. - And I believe later in this episode,

we're gonna talk about the myth of the chewy brownie. (laughing) - Well, and here's where I do have an opinion, which I can say for later, but, you know, I am, you know, I fall into one of these camps.

- Yes. - And as I recall, there were 17 brownies. They were on the fudgey side. And, you know, there's also the question of, like, do you prefer an all cocoa brownie?

- Right. - Or do you prefer a brownie made with chocolate? - I was just about to ask you, this was a cocoa brownie or a chocolate. - I don't remember.

- It's not as a pathetic. - I think cocoa. - Okay.

“- I think cocoa, but I can't say for sure.”

But I will say, if you add melted chocolate instead of cocoa, you're gonna have a wetter batter, which in turn means that you will have to add more flour, right? Because cocoa powder, like, suck moisture out of something, which then could result in it could result in a cake year,

brownie. I mean, that's just science. (laughing) I do think that cocoa brownies tend to have a more intense chocolate flavor.

- Which is where they're chocolate in them. - Yes. - And it's weird. - I also think that, that can spend some times on what unsweetened chocolate you use

in your chocolate brownie. I grew up using Baker's. - Baker's, which is not a high quality chocolate, but I love the brownies I made with it. I mean, because more sweet, not super chocolatey.

You know, because that chocolate didn't have, there's probably a lot of, it was probably mostly cocoa butter and not cocoa in that chocolate. - I mean, this is a little bit of a deferred estimate I'm gonna take us on, but if you eat a box brownie

with your eyes closed, which I did recently actually, we were doing some, the R&D kitchen here was doing

because, you know, of course, King Arthur has two brownie mixes,

are all American brownie mixes, and the gluten-free brownie mix. And so they had made those brownies and then a host of other mixes that are available in the market. And we were tasting them, and I was tasting them, just for fun with my eyes closed.

And quite a lot of brownie mixes, when you eat them with your eyes closed, don't actually taste like chocolate at all. They taste sweet. - Sweet, yeah.

- I mean, it's interesting you made the point about like the cocoa, like brownies made with cocoa, just like the cocoa butter, right? So cocoa butter, obviously, we've talked about this in our chocolate episode, it's like a key part of chocolate.

So cocoa brownies don't have any cocoa butter in them. And, you know, I do think that that's where some of the texture stuff comes in, because a cocoa brownie is going to be, well, it gets hard at when it's cool. - A chocolate brownie.

- Yeah, I'm sorry. - It's a melted chocolate brownie. - A melted chocolate brownie. - It gets hard when it's cool because of the butter, it gets matte and butter solidifies.

- Yeah. - Include and cocoa butter is the size in cooler temperatures. - So I don't think we'll like that, I mean, and you get this density and you start to achieve a sort of chewiness that way.

I know there are some chewy brownie recipes out there that call for chilling it and eating it sort of cold. Which is sort of, I don't know, I think it's cheap, you know,

“if that's how you get to the chewy texture.”

But it is true, you get it, it's a much different texture, eating a melted chocolate brownie cold than that room time. - Or more. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And I do think they chocolate brownie tends to dry out

a little more quickly, which also tracks, you know, so-- - Because usually using butter, which has less water, I feel like cocoa brownies sometimes use oil. - Yeah, they do.

- So the oil is gonna keep it-- - Well, and all of that, I mean not all, I think there's probably an alt-to-put melted butter in box brownies, but most of them are made with oil. And that does give you like, you know,

that texture that remains the same cold hot. You know, so there is some kind of science to that. And you know, I think it's going to be fairly-- this is the statement of the obvious. I probably make quite a few of them on the podcast,

but if you want, I mean, if you, particularly with cocoa, but I think if you want a delicious brownie, whether it's a chocolate brownie or a cocoa brownie,

“like you have to start with good quality chocolate or cocoa.”

Like that's gonna-- Because there's not a lot of other stuff in brownies. Well, some people put extra chocolate in the brownies. And I think this is sort of a controversial point. You know, folding in chocolate chips or chocolate at the end,

so that you, you know, have chips in it. - Yeah, where do you stand on that? - Since coming to King Arthur, I've sort of been converted to folding chocolate chips or chocolate into my brownies, because of the nice,

crackly top, you get-- - Which is, we've talked about on the show before. I think we had a question about that during the chocolate of a sort of how you get a crackly top, shiny crackly top chip brownies, which everybody likes.

- Yeah, I call that tissue paper top. - Oh, that's good. - I mean, I think that's, it's,

a homemade version is never gonna be quite like

what you get from a box where it's like really, you get that very thin layer on top. But I do think it's a desirable quality in a brand-new people look for. And yeah, we did talk about this before,

but I don't think it hurts to say again, our testing experience, although we can't quite explain the science of it, is that if you add additional chocolate or chocolate chips to your brownie batter, at the end, you fold the man and bake them like that.

That does result in a tissue paper top. - And the thought is that it is adding just a little bit of additional sugar, that dissolves and makes that crackly kind of float to the top and almost like a meringue creeps like this.

It's like, well, it's super thin layer we're wearing at the top of the top of the brush. - Harold McGee, if you're listening, let us know what's going on. - Any food sciences, let us know.

- Although, I mean, we've tested it extensively and that's about, and we have food sciences here and that's what our theory. - Yeah, but so yeah, and it's nice. And it's certainly adds way more chocolate,

true chocolate, flavor, especially if you think it could chocolate, not to your brownie. And so yeah, I'm kind of into it. I mean, I don't, I don't need it,

“but more is more, if I'm gonna eat a brownie, why not?”

- Yeah, why not? I do also like a frosty, but I'm not gonna go, but I do like frosty brownie. - Okay, so this is where, this is really what it's for me. - 'Cause yeah, I mean, we recently published a recipe

for Frosty Brownie said, we're sort of a copycat recipe of the cosmic brownie, is that little of that? - Yeah, yeah.

- Never had that, I was an oatmeal pie.

- Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - The real good person, not a cosmic brownie person. That's totally out of room for me, I do not know. - The cosmic brownie?

- No, the frosty brownie, I mean, I like sugar,

- Even for a pie, I wanna talk for a second about,

so again, brownie's relatively short ingredient list. - Yes. - But I wanna talk about eggs. - Okay. - Because in general, a fudge your brownie

is going to contain fewer holl eggs, and a cake your brownie is going to contain more. And you know, you were talking earlier about really like chewy brownies, and I have,

“I think there's a correlation between a chewy brownie”

and the number of eggs yolks. Like often a chewy brownie has more egg yolks at it. - I haven't, yeah, which meant to me is a pretty, it's an advanced brownie recipe. - Yeah, that's true.

- If you're separating eggs to make a brownie, you're in sort of advanced territory, because to your point, before you mentioned that this recipe, 17 brownie recipe, it wasn't really good.

- I wasn't separating eggs. - Right, I mean, most brownie recipes are one bowl, and that's sort of the peel of them that you can bring them together with pantry ingredients.

- Yes. - So quickly, if you're separating eggs, wow. You're committed. But yeah, that makes sense to me. I mean, again, less water, right?

I think there's a lot of water and egg whites. - Yeah. - So we're removing that. - And adding, keeping the fat. - Yeah.

- Yeah.

“I think sugar plays a big role in brownie as well.”

- Yes. - And there's some, there's some methods that I like. I really like a brownie recipe, and this is also advanced, where you simmer the butter, I guess, I'm only saying this down with butter,

you wanna do this with oil, but you melt the butter in a pan, add the sugar, and let it simmer really cook down and reduce in the pan before incorporating it into the rest of the butter, the canal house, folks.

They're brownie recipe does this. And it's an extra step, and you let it go for a few minutes. - Interesting. And boiling out the water in the butter,

but you're also getting the sugar to a certain temp that you might not be able to get it to otherwise, 'cause you know, in most recipes, you're just whisking the sugar in. - Yeah.

- So that can contribute to a really nice chewy texture, or chewy texture, and also helps with that, to sugar paper top. - I mean, that's interesting.

I've never made that recipe.

Although I have a very clear image in my mind of that page in their cookbook, where they, 'cause they are a good looking brownie. - Yeah, yeah, but it's really so much. - But you know, the elephant in the room,

always the elephant in the room here, King Arthur, is flower, and brownies are actually a baked that do not really use that much flower. - Like just enough to hold it. - Just enough to hold it.

- I guess usually half the cup. I know for an eight by eight, and I'm right nine, yeah. - I mean, it's really relying on eggs and the fat

“for structure, and that's why I think it's really,”

like a gluten-free brownies are really great. - Yeah. - Because you're not counting on flower to do a ton of the, you know, a lot of brownies have no leavener at all.

- Mm-hmm. - You know, it's sort of almost like a, you know, a flowerless cake. - Yep. - So, if you're swapping in measure for measure,

or using an alternative flower, like it kind of doesn't matter that much, 'cause there's not enough, like the flower's not doing a lot of heavy lifting. - Yeah, it's a little bit of structure.

- I think that, I'm glad you said alternative flowers because brownies are great vehicle for rye flower. - Yeah. - Spell flower, any type of buckwheat. You can, it's hard to taste these things

through all that chocolate, or though I do think rye can. - Mm-hmm. - By doing, you can get that flavor. But it's a great place to experiment with

with other flowers. I believe we're going to a conversation with David Leibanditz. - We are, David Leibanditz, of course, is just like, I mean, he's such a star baker.

He was, for a long time, the pastry staff at Shapenese, he has written, gosh, I don't know how many cookbooks, but quite a few cookbooks, some classics. - Yeah, I mean for dessert, which was just re-assued. - We use his ice cream book in Ohio.

- He's cream book, he's the author of my Paris kitchen, which is a very funny recipe memoir about moving to Paris in his life there. But just like the really generous and smart baker, and he has a lot of thoughts about brownies,

and it was interesting also to talk to him about like our brownies thing in Paris. So super fun conversation, and I'm really glad he was able to join us, which is a way. - When we were talking about this episode

and thinking about who to have come on, I was like, well, we gotta have David, because I mean, I think you have such a huge following on your sub-stack, your books are so great. You do so much of rigorous testing of all your recipes,

and I know that you are a man that knows his way around a brownie. So I thought it would be fun for us to chat about that today.

And one of the first things I was thinking about

is, I think brownies have like a very American identity, like a very American sort of bake sale identity, and only Americans can bake them, I've learned it. - Well, I was from living to you, 'cause I saw you said something on your sub-stack,

you know, a few years ago, I think you wrote

- So I was sort of curious about how they're perceived

“even now live in Paris, and there's a lot to recommend Paris,”

but perhaps brownies is not one of the things, I don't know. - Well, some bakeries do have them, and was a bakery over in my last, my previous neighborhood, and they were making their brownies, and they were really not good.

And I like to make a race. I gave them my recipe, I saw this one, it's really good. And then I went in there, and they were really dried out and terrible, and it's not an insult to anybody, but some things just have to be made

in or by a certain person or in a certain country to taste the same way. - Yeah, and I think brownies are a thing that people have a lot of nostalgia wrapped up in. Like often it's like, it's the first, in my case,

it was like the first recipe I learned how to bake. So I do feel, and there are other baked goods where I would say this is similar, but the brownie that you grew up with, I think sometimes has an outside like, you know,

hold on here. - Brownies sort of, the like in theory, like, it shouldn't work, it's like a very moist cake,

but it's not, they're never,

well, they should never be dry. They hold together when you slice them, that's another thing they can't fall apart, they need to be very moist, and they need to be very chocolatey.

- Yeah, and it's interesting because I think, you know, and we talked about this earlier in the episode,

“like I think brownies fall along a couple of lines, right?”

Like there are chocolate brownies, and within that there's like the subset of like, ones that are made with unsweetened chocolate, and then there are cocoa brownies, and I think of cocoa brownies as being like,

particularly pantry friendly, right? Like I don't always have unsweetened chocolate on hand, but I pretty much always have cocoa. - Well, unsweetened chocolate is actually quite hard to find in France.

- Oh, interesting. - When I went to chocolate school in Belgium, I went to, if it's a chocolate company, and we used to buy their chocolate in America, when I was a pastry chef,

I said, how come I can't get your unsweetened chocolate here in Europe, and they go, 'cause no one uses it here, it's very American. - Something that I have noticed, like, you know, over time, obviously you've rifted on brownies,

like one, Gajillion times in your career, and your revised ready for dessert, there's a cheesecake brownie. - I love those. - And this, in another book I have one

with Dolce de l'Hé, which is called "Colfeature de l'Ae."

“And that was something that I came up with”

when I was, I just moved to France, and I haven't seen these big pots of, "Colfeature de l'Ae," it's cheese stores. And I was like, that looks suspiciously like, Dolce de l'Hé, and it's not, you know,

it's made with cow's milk rather than, goat's milk, which is infinitely better, which I think is the original, but I'm not under percent sure, my, I was like, I'm gonna bake these in brownies

and see how it turns out. It was amazing. - You dolled them on top? - Yeah. - So that's, I was gonna ask you, like,

what are some ways to sort of, like, elevate a brownie without making them fussy? That's a very good one. - Well, mixins, you know, cinnamon, so really good.

- Oh yeah. - I, I, I, I, I two love thinments. - Mm-hmm. - I do, you know, I can, I'd have a recipe in my chocolate book that's coming out

for the candied coconut nips that are, like, really crunchy. - Yeah. - If you put them on top, they get, like, they provide this, like, crunchy, crackly crust.

- Oh yeah. - So I think, you know, experimenting. I, I like to add things to brownies. I like chocolate chips in them. I, like, go nibs.

I like nuts. - You've written a little bit about, you know, whatever brownie formula you're following, just the importance of sort of, like, watching those brownies in the oven, like a hawk

and taking them out. So let's talk about that. Like, how do you know when your brownie's done, what should you be going for? 'Cause I do think an over baked brownie is a terrible thing.

- Well, Michael Rikudi, who's a chocolate here in the San Francisco Bay area, who's a wonderful, chocolate here in Baker.

He told me once, like, I'll always take, like,

chocolate desserts out, like, five or ten minutes before they're, they're interesting. - Interesting. - That's not an exact quote, but it's, to that effect. - Yeah.

- I, I always tell people, you know, like, when you see a recipe says bake for 25 minutes, your oven's going to be different, huh? Then mine, I have two different ovens in their both. Given I've got some albiter, some both,

they bake very differently. - Yep. - So, you know, I'm, like, go by texture, touch it. And also make the same recipe over again. You're like, yeah, they're burnt.

Okay, how can I fix this? - Have you served American style brownies to your French friends? And are they just, like, we're not into it? Or did they like them?

- No, people like them. The great thing, once you get about brownies is that you have the ingredients, and they can be in the oven, literally, in 15 minutes,

So, they're very easy to make, and they're, who doesn't love chocolate. - I know. - Fortunately, little by little,

“French people are getting more used to American food,”

so, you know, for better food. - For better food. - For worse? - Jinks. - Well, do you know, it's interesting, you know, something like 83% of restaurants in France,

now have a hamburger on the menu. And that's fast food restaurants, that's all restaurants. - All restaurants. - Well, a brownie is sure to follow, you know, it's just a few steps behind, maybe.

I don't know.

- Well, you know, basically, you know,

a brownie is a ghetto, chocolate, a friend of mine who lives there. Once again, also on my website, I have a recipe for my friend, my friend, Ellen's brownies.

She made them for me when I was down in, they live near Angulen. And I was like, oh, these are really delicious. They sort of broke the rules for the brownies, most, so- - Okay.

- So it was to be, but they were delicious. So I put the recipe up. - Oh, no. - Oh, they're thin.

“It's basically a chopped thin chocolate cake batter.”

- Mm-hmm. - But it's somebody's interpretation of brownies, so. - If you had to eat one brownie for the rest of your days, which of your recipes would you choose? - That's a really good question.

Probably the Kate and Dave's ones, it's in my chocolate book. - Okay. - That's because it's a very basic brownie. But it's really, they're really, really good. - I'm excited to try the recipe.

I don't think I have made, that I've made lots of your recipes over the years. I love them. Some of them have become mainstains of our life, including, I know I've told you this before,

but your bourbon chocolate, pican pie is the mainstay at Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving, I've made your salted caramel sauce more times than I can count. They're just a total, a gem of a baker, a gem of a person,

and I'm excited to see the revised great book of chocolate.

- Well, it's always a treat to talk to you.

I'm sorry we only get to do it once every 12 years. Latest updated version of the great book of chocolate will be out May 5th. People can find you on DavidLeapOfits.substack.com. We'll put links to all of that in the show notes,

and everyone should go and make the David Kates brownies. - And I want to just give a shout out to King Arthur, who has done an amazing job over the years, just promoting bakers, helping bakers, being a very aware company as well,

making sure, you know, keeping holding people together through baking, which is so important now. Especially nowadays, when things have become fractured, baking is something that really brings people together,

and it's a joyful activity, but it's also, and I hate to use the word 'cause it sounds like a cliche, but nourishes our soul, but it's true. So thank you, King Arthur, for everybody there,

for being such good people, helping people

become better bakers. - You're the best, you're the best. - You're the best. (laughs) - I know, and with the tissues, no.

“- We appreciate you, and I think we share that sentiment.”

- Yeah. - Thank you, and let's talk again soon. (upbeat music) - Hey, it's Francis Lamb, host of the Splendid Table Podcast. Every week on our show, we celebrate the intersection of food and life.

In this month, we're releasing a new series called "Conerry Masters." It highlights some of those iconic people in the food world, and we're revisiting conversations with people who have fundamentally changed. How many of us cook and think about food?

People like Jacques Le Pan, Claudia Rodin, and Tony Bourdain, the name of few. You can listen to the special series now, just search for the Splendid Table and your podcast app. (upbeat music)

- This episode is sponsored by Cheerio Spice Company, a woman-owned mission-driven Spice Company, and let me tell you something, Jessica, if you are somebody who thinks that spices and brownies do not go together, listen up. (laughs)

But a lot spicy, so it's a blend of coffee, cocoa nibs, cinnamon, star anise. I'm sorry, I would cook all those things by brownie, and it sounds delicious from now on. My brownies are Spiced Brownies.

They're also brownies. And they're the lot issues. (laughs) Okay, at least I got you to laugh. Listeners just turned off the podcast.

You know what I also like to do to my brownies is, you know, and chocolate chip cookies, but sprinkle them with a little flaky salt at the end, and curious, Spice Company has that delicious, cypress salt, you know, the big flake,

which is a really nice finishing touch. Why is salt and chocolate so great together? We should talk about that on the future episode. You can find lots of curious Spice Company Spices at KingArthurBricking.com.

And of course, you can find their full collection. At curiousbice.com, see you r-i-o-spice.com. This episode is brought to you by Supernatural. Supernatural makes sprinkles, food colors,

fully traceable, and totally free

“from anything artificial or a synthetic.”

And it's just a proven fact. It is just a proven fact that sprinkles make everything more fun, so you can add them to your pancake batter. You can sprinkle them on your ice cream, and of course, you can use them to top a frosted cake.

Yeah, or a brownie. Or a brownie. It's a very popular brownie out there that has sprinkles on it. I don't mess with that, but I will mess with this.

(laughs) Supernatural sprinkles, food colors, flavors, and more, at KingArthurBricking.com, and the full line is available at SupernaturalKitchen.com. This episode is brought to you by our best selling gluten-free

budge brownie mix. And here's a little secret for you David. This is my favorite brownie mix. Despite the fact that I am not gluten-free, and I'm not alone.

People love these brownies. No matter their dietary preferences, their budgie, tender, super decadent, easy enough for my 12 year old to make them.

It's the thing he always requests that I bring back.

I have a little secret, because I am not gluten-free. I do like to hack this mix a little bit. (laughs) So, you know, I'm just gonna offer my tip, which is that I like to add a couple of tablespoons

of all-purpose flour to our gluten-free brownie mix,

“which I think gives it, for me, the ultimate texture.”

So, you know, people might want to try that, but they're also perfect as written. If you are following a gluten-free diet. The really is a cult around these brownies. They're great.

Sister is gluten-free, and she, oh sorry, gluten-free, we got some comments on my pronunciation, of gluten-free. And she and her friends are now obsessed with this brownie, and like you said, those who eat gluten,

and those who do not, they all love this brownie. Yeah, it's a great brownie. And you can find the mix on our website, but it's also available on a grocery store shelves around the country.

The blue box. The blue box. Yeah. It's time for our next segment, ask the bakers for ask the bakers.

We wanna hear from you. If you have a baking question for us, head to KingArthurBaking.com/podcast to record of voice message, and we may end up using it on the show. That's KingArthurBaking.com/podcast.

And of course, if you simply cannot wait,

you can always reach out to us at our bakers hotline,

be a phone, email, or online chat. Just go to KingArthurBaking.com/bakers-hotline, that's slash bakers-hotline, or call us, 855-371-2253, that's 2253 as in EAKED. That's here, our brownie questions.

Hi, this is Julie from Winchester, Massachusetts. I prefer Fudgey Brownies, but I don't like them when they're kind of raw inside. What makes a brownie more Fudgey versus Kiki? Okay.

You know, I mean, this sounds sort of silly at the onset, like, you don't like a raw brownie. Of course, you don't like a raw brownie, but in fact, I think a lot of people do like an under-baked brownie in this.

So there's almost like more time. Yeah, they do. Don't know what the food safety on that is, so I'm not gonna comment. No, I'm not gonna comment.

Yeah, I mean, and we talked in the top of the show a lot about sort of like what makes a Fudgey versus a Kiki brownie.

“So I think hopefully we've answered that question.”

But do you know what? There is one thing we didn't talk about. Wow, which is, we talked about flour, but it's the amount of flour, does I think have a big impact on whether it's Fudgey or Kiki.

And if you have a Fudgey brownie recipe that you wanna make Kiki, you can just throw in some more flour, it will make it Kiki, it will. That's true. - That's true, that's true. That's true, that's true, that's true.

Okay, that's the one you face. No, I also think we didn't, I don't see many brownies that use this method anymore. But you know, if you were to treat your butter and sugar for a brownie the way that you do for a cake.

Like if you were to cream butter and sugar. Yes, right. And then add in the other ingredients that you know, you would end up with something Kiki or because you're using, you know, a technique that incorporates air.

Right. So it's about the leavening. Because also if you throw in some chemical leavening to your brownies, you can get a cake here, but because again, the same reason

why doing the creaming gives you a cake here, it's gonna add a little off to the other level. - Exactly, but I do think, you know, the question about doneness is not a silly question because I do think it can be hard,

especially if you get a brownie that gets that sort of, crackly top, it can be hard. And you know, like the toothpick test, like sometimes you insert the toothpick

and then that crackly top, like basically wipes your toothpick clean.

It can be hard to tell when it's done enough, but not too done.

- You don't want a clean toothpick out of a brownie.

- So let's go to our next question. - Hi, this is London, calling from Falmouth Main.

“Love your show, especially our hometown baking hero, Jessica.”

I'm calling with a question about cocoa. - What kind of cocoa is best for brownies? Can't wait to hear you guys chat about that. Thanks, bye. (beep)

- This is a great question. And we've talked about cocoa powder before. I think, you know, in some cases, there is like a functional reason to use a natural cocoa, versus a Dutch process cocoa versus a black cocoa

because they do interact with 11ers differently. In the case of brownies, that's not really coming into play because they typically have little if any chemical 11er added. So what we're really talking about here is flavor.

- Yep.

And so you can use any, so technically,

you can use any cocoa you want in brownie. Really, it's been down to flavor. And I also think, me kind of comes down to color too. Like some of these, you know, a natural cocoa, which can be very light brown almost reddish.

- Yes. - It's gonna give you a brownie that to my eyes. It's not gonna be that appealing. - Oh, yeah, just look as dark. - Oh, I just, it's gonna be like a pale brownie, perhaps.

And then a black cocoa on the other end of the spectrum, I think has an intensity. - Two intense. - That I'm just not looking for in my brownies. I'm also gonna make a jet black, which, again,

is not what I'm looking for aesthetically.

“So I, you know, you should know my looks.”

(laughing) I'm very wet. - Very shallow.

- I'm just here for the looks of the brownie.

- Well, the black cocoa gives things like, you know, almost like the, I described as the flavor of like an Oreo cookie. It is that sort of intense, almost bitter. - Yeah.

- It's delicious, I love it, but it's not, I wouldn't have made it. - 100% of the cocoa. - Well, and you know, Alice was telling me that she makes like, pastes of cocoa and eats some plain.

- Oh, you know, just to get a sense of what the cocoa is, the quality of it, you know, I mean, and she's a super tastier. But I was thinking, you know, it's not a terrible idea for a home baker to kind of be thinking about that way

because they really do have differences in flavor. You know, from brand to brand, you know, natural versus Dutch process, like, there's gonna be different levels of acidity, like they will have different flavor. So, you know, her advice was like, well, figure out

what cocoa you like, the flavor of and let that guide you, which is, I mean, obvious, but nobody does it and very smart, I think. - Yeah. - When I make brownies, I usually use our double dark cocoa

because I feel like that's sort of a, it's a combination of natural and Dutch process,

“cocos, and I think that has a really nice balance flavor.”

If you wanted something that has some of that black cocoa, our triple cocoa blend is a combination of all three. So, natural, Dutch process, and black cocoa. - And that's what I use. - Oh, it is, yeah.

- I mean, I just think that, and I think that's the answer, like, well, you can use whatever cocoa you want, but a blend is gonna give you a nice combination of elements of the different cocos, and it's gonna add some nice nuance,

and the perfect amount of color to your brown. So, and if you're not, if you can't find a blend, I would say, you can just, the Hershey's cocoa on, it's gonna be fine. Like, any cocoa powder that you get on the grocery store,

I think, on the typical grocery store shelf, it's gonna work in your brownie, just fine. - Yeah, I mean, it'll definitely work, and I do think, like I said earlier in the show, I mean, the flavor of the cocoa,

the better of the flavor of the brownie. - Yeah, you get what, with Charlie, you get what you pay for. - It's true, honey. - And we talked about them in the chocolate episode. - It's not, and this is early, cheap time, for chocolate.

- No. - It's also, for some people, more affordable luxury. So, yeah, you could, you can spring for the one level up of cocoa, it's gonna make a big difference. - Yeah, I agree.

Let's hear our next question. - I see some recipes for brownies that use oil, and some recipes that use butter in them, how are they different, and which ones the actual best version?

- I said earlier, something about like, "Well, better is subjective, and you were like, "No, I'm 100% butter brownie person." - Yeah, with the exception of when I'm making a box of mix. I actually did make our all American brownie mix other day.

I had it in the cabinet, and my husband had made some gelato, and I was like, "Well, you can't eat gelato without a cart." So I was like, "I'll just make this brownie mix." And in that mix, you do have the option of using melted butter or oil, and I chose oil,

because that to me is the vibe of a boxed brownie. Like, it's gonna keep the, you know, it's gonna keep it fresher for longer, or the texture's gonna stay for longer. It's gonna be a little chewier.

So that's fine. When I'm going for boxed brownie realness, I know, she's oil, but if I'm making a brownie from scratch,

You know, you always use butter.

- I will say, though, you know, that there is a, the previous question about doneness, and I will say, does the margin of error with a butter brownie? Versus the margin of error with an oil brownie, is a little narrower, right?

“Like, I think you have to nail the bake on a butter brownie.”

- You can, because you're saying you can dry it out. - You can dry it out, and in fact, I did this. - What are you saying? - Just the other day, I made, well, you know, I was gonna take the fall for this,

but I'm in fact, it was my wife that overbakes. (laughing) - Yeah, it was totally overbaked. - Yeah. - Not tragically overbaked, but it's slightly overbaked,

and they, you know, they were a little dry. And then, of course, the next day, there were some leftover, and they were dry or still. But honestly, we revitalize those with a quick hit in the microwave and a scoop of ice cream.

- That's what I'm saying, like, you're gonna put ice cream on it. - It was fine. - It was fine, it was fine. - I mean, you know, where they little drier, sure, but I think the flavor of butter is superior.

- It wins. - It wins, you know, it's gonna win any arm wrestling competition.

So if this question comes up again, always butter is the answer.

Right, that is the definitive answer, that is correct answer. There is no other way. - No, just choose butter. - Just choose butter. - Um, great, okay.

- All right, so that's my David Pingin, all butter and brownies. - But you're always trying to answer. - Or not, not in the end, not you. - I'm not. - You want to do that, man.

- I know, I don't. - I'm saying up, this is my transition into the most important segment of all of our high tests. Every week, we like to check how much that's going to see, but while we're surprising, the fourth row of the ideas

are in their head, I segment, we love to call just opinions. Jessica, it's all about you. - What is your just opinion about brownies?

“- This is what I think, I want to have some discussion”

with you, 'cause I actually don't know where you stand up. - Oh, I'm allowed to speak in this segment. - Okay, let's do it. - I'm dabbing you in, you know, our test kitchen worked on a recipe for something that is quite popular,

and it was sort of surprising that we didn't already have a recipe for it, which is brownie brittle. So brownie brittle, for those who, I don't know, I've just come out of a seven-year coma. - Mm-hmm.

- Or is, you know, brownie batter that's bread very thinly in a pan, and the point is to make it, like a crack, like a cookie, like a dry and crumbly. - I'm already, I'm already doing my hair. (laughing)

- I would have said crispy, yeah. - Yeah, you would have said crispy, and I would have said dry and crumbly, because here's where I give the just opinion, I hate brownie brittle.

- Oh, you hate it. - I hate it. - No. - I just think it's, everything is good about a brownie. I mean, if you are a lover of a fudgy brownie,

what business does brownie brittle have in your life? - I think you're getting caught up in the name a little bit too much. - No. - I mean, if someone gave you a plate of brownie brittle and said,

here's dusty crobs, I'd still say, no thank you. - Yeah, well yes, as I said that, but if they said here's my crispy chocolate cookie edges, or my favorite, my thin, crispy chocolate bars. - No.

- I don't think so. - I think there's something sort of addictive about them, sort of like potato chips, they're crispy on the texture, they're sweet and chocolatey, and I think we've discussed this on the show recently.

I'm like, really into the Scotty right now, and so they're not that far. - You're really touching your Italian.

First, Delado, now, the Scotty.

Like, we get it. - I'm a stand-back from Italy. - I'm Italian now. - Yeah, we get it, you took a Roman holiday. - Yeah, right, I did, and then I said,

no, but even before that, I was getting into the, I know I got the texture thing, yeah. - Like I want, I would appreciate, every time I got a cup of coffee, anywhere. - Oh.

- They put a little brownie, but I don't know. - You love it. - Oh, yeah, I would love that, sure. - Oh, interesting. - Yeah.

- I feel like sometimes I'm soft with my coffee. - Sometimes these just opinions lead me to some self-discovery, and I was just thinking, like, do I like a crunchy chocolate thing? I love a biscotti, but do I like a chocolate biscotti?

I don't know that I do. So maybe this is the blanket statement. - So would you like blonde-y-bridled? - Does that exist? - I don't know.

- I mean, we should, we should invent this recipe. I'm going to call the test kitchen, as soon as we finish this episode, get it in the pipeline. - Yeah.

- I mean, blonde-y-bridled, it's like a thin and crispy. - Butterscotchy things. - Oh, I think this is a good idea. I think this has legs. - Okay, so we took a negative and turned into a positive.

- We did, I mean, it's a new year, new life.

“- You should bring me into Chesapeño a little bit more.”

- I guess. (laughs) - Well, what do you, if not Browningborough, if not Jolato, if not Biscotti, will you be baking this week? - Oh, pizza, lasagna, cacho pepe, yeah, yeah.

- Actually, on my list for this week is,

I believe this is a Swedish bake.

“I'm gonna have to double check that out.”

- Okay, that's a Swedish. - It's not what's taking that out. - A Nordic bake. - Nordic bake. And we have had some comments on the podcast.

Do some reviews, which we read the reviews. Thank you for the reviews. Please send more reviews. Even the ones that criticize my pronunciation of things, like the word gluten.

- Oh, I didn't even read that one. - We don't. - Okay, so this is a Norwegian bake. Thank you, Rossi. And I'm gonna attempt to pronounce as I will probably,

which I apologize. - The Norwegians are just Norway. - They're at their keyboards right now, but it's right in. Go on, go on.

- So Skimbola. - I think that's right.

- It's probably Skimbola.

- Otherwise, I'm gonna sunbuns. These are wildly delicious. I mean, it's a soft sweet yeasted dough with a, sort of yellow pastry cream in the middle. It looks like this, you're very sunny looking

- Just yellow from, like, the addition of egg yolks. - Yeah, it's not a lemon. - It's not a lemon thing. - Where was I when these were being developed? - Yeah, yeah. - These are vanilla custard.

And this, the recipe we have on our site, comes from a tree in Hunman who wrote Scandinavian baking. Which is a great book. I've made some cookies from that book, and they're really good.

So anyway, I was, I grabbed one in the test kitchen. I don't know where you were. I think it was here by myself. And I just grabbed six sunbuns, you know, and ate them.

- And brought so much meat in it. - And it made me feel better. They are so good. And, you know, we're not quite in spring or summer yet, so like-- - Not from out or not.

“- And this is what I think the hardest time of the year.”

- Yeah. - Because, you know, elsewhere, say, like, you know, one of our producers lives in California, and she's all like, oh, strawberries. Like, oh, rhubarb's old new.

- Yeah. - And meanwhile, back here, we're still eating, like, root vegetables, now with sprouts, you know? - So to channel some of that Rossi energy, I'm making sunbuns to sort of, you know, get ready for spring.

- Yeah, that sounds great. I, you know, I'm in the, of course, like a similar position where you're just like, you're waiting and you're waiting and you're waiting. And it's not happening.

And so what to do, but eat more cheese. - No. - Yeah. - So recipe on our site. And it's a--

- It's just bulking season. - That's bulking season. It's a Yotam Otolengi recipe for these. Again, I'm gonna do my best on the pronunciation. It's a cheese and mint co-oc.

- Oh, yeah. - It's must-fe-a-cooker. - And it's, you know, it's a, like, a bread pocket. - Well, it's, how do I describe it? - Why am I having trouble with words?

It is a stuffed bread. - It's what it is. - And it's stuffed with grated Hulu Me Cheese, which I love, one of my favorites, like salty. That's mixed with cream cheese,

but it also has fresh mint added to it, which I think, I feel like fresh mint is like a nice, sort of gateway or right now. Like you can get it at the grocery store, even at this time of year when there's nothing

really fresh and green. And it does bring the sort of vibrancy. - Yeah. - And then they get coated in sesame seeds and pan, and baked like that.

So they are a little crunchy on the outside and they have salty cheese. And they're, they're fun to make and they're just like a great little snack or like, side dish to a meal.

- Yeah. - While we wait for spring and wait and wait. (laughing) And while we're waiting, we thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers No.

“- Please remember to like, subscribe to us”

if you don't subscribe. - We're gonna say, please remember to like us. It's like a subliminal message. - And please leave a review wherever you listen. Apple podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon.

- Or where you watch, you know we're out here. - Or where you watch. - We're out here on the video, the videos now. And leave us a review while you're there or sharing episode with a friend.

- Yep.

- And remember folks, do not forget, always,

all of the best people. - Things Bakers No is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tumarkin. - And me, Jessica Badalana. - Rossi Anastopulo is our senior producer,

Chad Chennai is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer, original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. - Thanks again to David Leibovitz for appearing on today's episode.

You can find more about him and his work at DavidLeibovitz.com. - Things Bakers No is a King Arthur baking company podcast.