The Bagel Boom, featuring Carlos Perez of Boil & Bake

- You grew up in a cave in the woods. - I grew up in a cave in the woods, and...

- You wait like now. From King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers. No, I'm just about a lot of King Arthur's staff editor. - And I'm David Smarking, King Arthur's editor director. And today we're talking about bagels. - Oh God, I've been dreading this episode because I just feel like there's no way we're not going to get in hot water here. - I don't care, I'm ready. I feel like there's one thing I feel secure in my opinions about bagels.

- Well, and you know, here's a little twist of the turn, as my 12-year-old likes to say. - Twist of the turn, I like that. - Because this episode, you're the one with all the big opinions. Because you said... - I have some opinions. - My serves. You said, on video, we could go to the tape that New York bagels are...

I think the word "do use" was trash.

“- And that video got around, you record these things and you think, doesn't matter what I say?”

No one's going to see this. In terms of when you say New York bagels are trashed people. - People see it. - People see it. - They make attention. All of the sudden, people listen to me. - I think what I meant by that statement is that there are a lot of sub-par bagels in New York. And that's probably just because there are a lot of bagels in New York.

I mean, you can get a bagel anywhere. - I mean, there are a lot of sub-par bagels everywhere. I think people think, you know, bagels are associated with New York. The same way you go to Paris and you're like, "The bagets."

And then there's like some absolute garbage grocery store bagets, too.

- Yeah. - Yeah. - Nobody is spared from mediocrity. - Right, there is no Shangri-La. - It doesn't exist. - But I want you to unpack the New York bagels or trash statement just a little bit for our listeners. - Sure. Let me just clarify.

There are great bagels in New York and I feel truly blessed. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm back cracking. I'm a flip-flopper. I live across the street from a great bagel shop in New York. I mean, so there are some great bagels. But I do feel distressed over the state of the bagel.

The bagel has gotten too big. - Yes, too. - That's not that, yes. - And a lot of the character that defined the bagel,

“which I think we're going to get into in this episode has been lost over the years.”

That said, there's a huge movement in this country of bringing back great bagels. And we talk so often about the evolution of big good on this podcast. I feel like that's really in a lot of ways what our podcast is about. Like, where is baking now and where it has been. - Yeah. - And bagels are a great example of that because they started one place.

They went a lot of other places. I feel like they're coming back. But they're also doing new things that I support as opposed to the new things that I don't support, which are bagels that are about the size of my head. - Yeah, true. I mean, then I think we can't get into this episode without acknowledging, at least, like, that there is some, I guess we'll say, regional friction around the conversation around bagels.

Like, it is one of those foods where people think, like, you can only have a true ex if it's from ex. - Exactly. - And I don't, I mean, we're going to talk more about that in this episode. But I think, like, there is a lot of debate about our New York bagels better than bagels in Los Angeles. Our New York bagels better than bagels in Montreal. You know, there is, like, people have their allegiance shall we say.

- Yeah. - And there are some baked goods, not all of them. Like, I think about, like, I don't know, I think about our cheesecake episode, so it's say, and it's not like people are, like, the only true, well, I don't know, maybe they are. - New York stuff. - Yeah, it's New York just thinks it's the center of the universe. - It's a little bit. - Yeah.

But it's true. I mean, I think that is what I was responding to. People have this idea that, you know, if you're in New York, that the bagels there should be great.

“And it's just, it's just not true. I mean, you have to go to a good bagel place in New York.”

- Right. - And not just any bagel in New York. Montreal definitely has a great, you know, style of bagel. - Yeah. - And you mentioned LA, which is a real newcomer in the bagel space, really. And, you know, when the headlines came out a couple years ago, that the best New York bagels are not in New York, they're in LA. You know, I was like, that's clickbait.

I'm not doing that. - Yeah. - I don't believe that. - Yeah. - But, uh, I don't know. I, today, I, I, I, I, I, I've been convinced. I think, I think there's some, I think there's some really exciting stuff happening in California.

- Yeah. - In the country there is a lot of exciting bagel innovation happening.

- Yeah. And it's not like you need, you know, there's always the like, you need New York

water to make New York pizza. You need, you know, and I, like, you know, I don't buy it.

“Like, I think it's, you can be a regional loyalist all you want, but I don't think it's true”

that you can only get a good bagel in New York. Sorry. I'm just going to say it. - Um, but I will say, you know, I mean, it's now how we spend slamming New York bagels. - But New York is the home of bagels in America. - Yes, absolutely. Bagels originated in Eastern Europe and like so many other big goods, like pizza and so many, so many, so many, so many. - So much of the stuff we talked about and she's gave her back. It was immigration that brought it to the

states and Polish bagels in particular brought the bagel to New York City in the late 19th and 20th centuries. And, uh, it was a thriving industry. I mean, the lower side was full of bagels and the, - And the bagel. - And the bagel. It's which were two separate things, notably.

- Yes, and there was unions, right? These thinkers were part of a union, which is pretty incredible.

- Right. Because there were so many, I mean, there were so many big, and there were 70 shops in the lower side alone. - Wow. That's crazy. You know. - That's a very big area. - And there were unions and there were rules about how bagels could be produced, you know. Hand rolled, you know, hands shaped, boiled, baked and wood-fired ovens, often on bagel boards. - Yep. - Planks of wood that you could use to flip the bagels over.

- And some of them, and a lot of bagels are made that way today. - And they were not rainbow bagels at the time. - You know, fun fact, they were. And they were, the original bagels were rainbow bagels, yeah. - It was strawberry, blueberry. - I mean, the process that you're describing is still really, again, like automated. Like we were talking about our doughnut episode, like, you know, not all steps of the process are now done by hand.

But the steps are still more or less the same. Like, you make the dough, you shape the dough, you boiled them, you bake them. - Yeah. - Like that is codified bagel process. There are nuances there. We're going to talk about that. But that's basically, you know, the way that it goes. - And I would argue also that I think there are more bagels being hand rolled and hand shaped today than donuts being hand shaped. Of course, I'm talking about smaller bagels shops. You know, I mean, you know, the lenders bagels or whatever, you know, sure those are the same stuff.

- Yeah, I'm so glad you brought up lenders bagels actually because the lender bagel, I didn't have, I mean, I'm always talking about things that I did not have until, like, later in life.

Because I grew up in a plate. Like, it's sort of-- - You grew up in, like, in a cave in the woods. - I grew up in a cave in the woods and-- - You were like, now. - Yeah.

“- I don't know if anyone's going to remember that reference, but I do.”

Jody Foster, if you want to be a guest on the podcast, we'd love to have you. - But I-- - Or the only two people who remember you're ripping down. - I am. I didn't have a big-- I mean, bagels were not a thing. Like, there was, like, the first bagel chain in Vermont. I remember it was a Brewer's bagels that opened your burling tin, like, when I was in high school. I mean, it's sort of like crazy to think about now, but I do remember my aunt used to get sleeves of frozen lenders bagels. She lived in Boston.

And that was the first time that I had a bagel was at her house. Frozen, onion, lenders bagel. I mean, it was thought, toasted, but, and I mean, I thought it was great. Like, I thought they were delicious. And lenders is largely, you know, responsible for, like, the spread of bagels. Because lenders was a bakery in New York City, and they sort of figured out, like, hey, if we freeze these things, like, we can start distributing them, like, far outside of New York, so they developed the technology to freeze bagels.

I don't know, which is putting them in the freezer. That's what's real in that. But then distribution. So, like, people in small town Vermont could have, you know, a bagel experience for the first time. Yeah. A bagel experience. A bagel experience.

A very specific bagel experience. Yeah.

“And I think there's, you know, probably something great about, you know, exposing people to bagels.”

And probably had a lot to do with where we are now at bagels. But a lenders bagel is not going to be my choice for a bagel experience. Yeah. Yes. We've given a choice.

Yes. It's also interesting to think about, like, how, like, how much time went by before bagels became chainified. Mm-hmm. Like, a really, I mean, when you think about the big chains, like, the burgers bagels I was talking about, like, it didn't open its first store until 1983, which is pretty late.

Like, when you think about, like, bagels were in New York. Yeah. And then Einstein Brothers, like, that didn't open until 1995, you know, when I was a senior at high school. So it's like, you know, now I think you can't, like, swing a dead cow without seeing, you know, hitting a bagel as excuse.

I'm always saying that. Yeah. So where are you right now in your life in terms of bagels? Are you a favorite bagel on lender style, or are you more, uh, artisan wood-fired? Well, you know, I agree with you on one thing and one thing on, like, I, um, I like a smaller bagel.

Bagels have gotten too big.

“You should be able to eat a whole bagel.”

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I want to have bagel, like, because then it's like, you couldn't have crosswise or, like, you know, like, across the, you know what I'm saying, like, you get the top, whatever. It's sloppy.

So first of all, I think most bagels are too big, so I like a smaller bagel.

I like my bagel to have some chew to it, which, you know, typically comes from a bagel made with, like, a higher protein flower. Mm-hmm. Like, I want it, like, I, I don't want it to be, like, job-breaking, but I wanted to have some tug to it. Yeah. Um, you know, and I've eaten great sourdough bagels, but I don't necessarily think that a bagel needs to, or should be sourdough.

Mm-hmm. Um, and the one thing that I really do like, and then I think is harder to find, and certainly is not a hallmark of the lender-style bagel, is, you know, sometimes you get a bagel that has, like, a very thin, crisp crust. Yeah. Oh, I love that.

Like, and that comes from the boil and the big, but not everyone gets that right. Like, when is that shiny, very thin crust? Yeah. I think is, like, the ultimate. Um, and, you know, around the start of the year, I went to Montreal.

City, I love great food, city. Oh, my God. Montreal is amazing. Uh, and I went to Fairemont, and I went to Saint-Vieter, which are the two sort of, like, best known Montreal bagels. And Montreal bagels are significantly smaller.

They are, um, you know, cooked in boiled and honey, like, water that's had honey added to it. Uh, and they have, like, a, they're not quite like the shiny crust, but I have to say, a Montreal bagel is a great thing.

“And I ate a bunch of those, and as is my custom, did I bring back 12 dozen bagels?”

I put them in my chest freezer. Next to my tortillas, I sure did. So everyone, I meant Montreal. Check out the thrift stories in Montreal, because there's some of just those clothes there that should have done.

I drove to Montreal, so I didn't, I was, I know I was on the spot here by now. I just got it. So I've been doing a lot of Montreal bagels, which I know are a different thing. But also a good thing. I'm not going to say better than New York. They're totally different, but very pleasing.

But what about, what about you? What's your sort of, our, our, our type of a perfect bagel? I have very traditional thoughts about bagels. I think I think I've been deeply influenced by Jonathan Frishtic, who is a long time future here at the King Arthur baking school. He was sort of our bagel that I grew up in Queens.

Yeah. And I produced the on-demand bagel class that we have on our set. It's a great class. He's a great guy. I mean, he's just, he's just a mange.

“And he knows so much about bagels, but he's super traditional, right?”

Yeah. And so I've absorbed a lot of his opinions, but then I went to bagel fest. And bagel fest is a, it's an event in New York now, also in Los Angeles. King Arthur sponsors it, full disclosure. And it's a place where bagel makers from across the country converge.

And it's like a light combat, it's all in fun. You know, but it's a competition, you know, who has the best bagel. But really, it's an opportunity to walk around and take like 20 bagels around the country, you know, at once, it's super fun. And bagels, and it's, um, convert me a little bit to a different style of bagel.

Okay. Because there's so many bagels that, you know, like you hinted at, are you seeing sour down now. There's so many bagels that are really intentionally going for an open crime.

Yeah. And there are much lighter experience.

And at first, I was like, I don't know, this doesn't, this just doesn't feel like a bagel to me.

But the 1.1 bagel shopping particular called fancy bagels in Kingston, New York. F-A-N-T-Z-Y-E. Try them at bagel fest. Happened to be in Kingston a couple months later, went up to Kingston, went to the shop. Just wanted my best bagels I've ever had in my life.

And had been fully converted by this bagel shopping Kingston. And it's all sour though. Very chewy, pretty open crumb. But it's crispy. It's not too big.

You know, it's boiled. I don't know. I, I, I was a real cranky bagel guy before. And now I'm just a little less cranky better. So I answered your question, you know, now that I've been talking for 20 minutes.

[laughter] I'm open to lots of different styles of bagels now, which I thought, you know,

but I never would have thought I would have been.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that is something that has happened. Like, you know, when you talk about the bagel unions of the Lower East Side, you know, they were probably making more or less the same type of bagels, you know.

And also used to be like, only Jewish bagels. Yeah. That is not true anymore. Yeah. Yeah.

So I admit it can be done, which is something I would have never said before.

Yeah. Which is really kind of what this episode is about. It's all about me and my changing to my change, my bagel journey. But we invited a bagel maker from L.A.s. Who would have ever thought that I would have wanted to talk to a bagel maker from L.A.

“But to talk about, you know, you know, how can we change?”

How can we, how can we change? How can we change? How have bagels changed? And it's was a really interesting conversation. Carlos Perez is the co-owner of Boyle and Bacon Costa Mesa, California.

He grew up in the bagel business. And now it's part of the new wave of Southern California bagel makers redefining what a bagel can be. Carlos, thank you for coming on thingspakers now. Thanks for the invite. I want to start off with a deep question in the bagel world, which is.

Are your bagels New York style bagels? No. And I knew the answer to that. Of course, because your coos are calling from L.A. We're talking to L.A. And that's really getting at the heart of what I want to talk about, which is.

What is a California bagel or an L.A. bagel?

And is that, well, first of all, how would you describe your bagels?

So my bagels, they are. So when you started using the term naturally leavened, just because we felt, even though it is sourdough starter, based all that, but we found that every time we would say naturally leavened,

“the reason we didn't want to use sourdough is then we want people to assume,”

because sometimes sourdough bread can be very tangy, very sour. But ours are not. We try to find the balance between having just that slight tang from the sourdough, but still have that classic bagel leaf flavor. But we try to blend ours with the sourdough and the fermentation.

So, you know, a little two-year exterior. But with a more heavy crumb on the inside. Kind of that's the core bagels are. Have your tighter crumb on the inside? Or your lighter crumb.

Or your lighter crumb. Yes, more open crumb. So, as you're describing your bagel to me, naturally fermented, more open crumb than perhaps bagels on the East Coast or what most people are used to in a bagel,

I feel like you're describing to me what I am now calling a California style bagel, or even an L.A. style bagel. And I wonder what you think about that, because the reason I'm calling it that is because you are one of a handful of bagel shops that have opened up in the L.A. area in the past few years.

And there seems to be a similar style among these new operations in L.A. I'm just kind of curious, what your take is on the term California bagel if that is something that you think can be classified. And also, if there is a California style bagel now, how did that happen?

That's a good question. So, now, I don't know how it happened. Obviously, I took inspiration from courage bagels, and stuff like that. I'm sure you guys did some research.

I grew up in the bagel business. Just a local bagel chain here in Orange County. Then my dad took over when I was a little kid. So, I grew up in the bagel business already. So, as I got older and then I got a car,

started going now and trying different restaurants in general. I started noticing the bakery scene in L.A. And then I heard about courage and stuff like that. When I started noticing your courage up and up and stuff like that, then I was like, oh, I absolutely love this.

It's different. And when I wanted it, I guess that's kind of what happened. Years later, another there's more establishments. And I feel like L.A. has created a bagel scene.

I guess you could consider California bagels to be that. You know, to a lot lighter. You know, sourdough right now with the, you know, the height of sourdough bakeries in general too. How are people reacting to your bagels?

“You know, you opened when, what year did you do open?”

22 July. So, we're, in a few months, we'll be four years in. Okay, so four years in congratulations. Thank you. What has the reaction been to your bagels?

I mean, overall, it's, it's been great. It's funny because I'll get, like, all this is different, you know what I mean? But then it's really funny because we do have a lot of New York

backgrounds, especially post, you know, a pandemic. A lot of people from these coasts in New York moved here to Orange County. Um, I'm seeking, you know, more chill life. But um, I get a lot of New Yorkers that are like,

oh, finally this reminds me of home.

And I'm like, I'll, you know, I'm happy that they love it, but I'm like, this is nothing like New York style, you know, like, it's been really funny, man. Yeah, that's really weird.

It's been really funny, you know? Yeah, and then, but again, it's been positive. We got a lot of, like, all this is very different, but it's still very enjoyable. You know what I mean?

Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's, the feedback has been all over the place to be honest with you.

Because people have such opinions, such strong opinions about vehicles. Exactly.

“We did a really, we try really, we still try really hard to,”

not call it New York style, you know? Like, we have California style on board. Really implement the California as of our, you know, our concept that I feel like maybe that kind of helps when people come in, they don't expect that.

You know what I mean? They're just like, because for me, when I, I wasn't trying to be anything New York, Montreal style, whatever, I was just trying to, I created a big recipe that I really thought was delicious

and I'm like, if you like it, you like it cool, and so far people like it. That's just kind of the approach I took, you know? Yeah. I'm not trying to copy anything.

Really quick, literal introduction before I forget. When you ask me about like, when I noticed the vehicle change,

the first time I was when black seed bagels first opened.

Because when I was like 20, like in 2011, I started traveling to New York a lot. And black seed bagels was the first time I noticed like, "Oh, people are starting to try to do different things with bagels." I didn't want to forget about black seed.

Yeah. Black seed being a big ol' shop that, yeah, to your point, opened. It browned then around 2010, 2011 here in New York City, still around.

If I'm not mistaken, it was taking some stuff from Montreal. That's right. Sort of Montreal style, there you go. Which I think means wood fired.

But yeah, that, you know what? That's a great point, because I was here at that time.

“Remember, the first of all, the buzz around black seed.”

It seemed like there was a real hunger for a different style of bagels. There's the first time something completely different, especially in the mecca of bagels. Yeah. Yeah.

Let's go back to when you were developing the bagel.

I love what you said that you just, little by little, you made a bagel that you loved. Take me back to those days when you were developing. Where were you developing the bagel? And, and what was that time?

So, again, I worked with my dad as business from high school. I graduated until, you know, essentially COVID. So, I just was managing more, you know, like I just learned. I learned the kitchen just through working, you know,

the three locations. So, I was like, almost like a self-taught cook, I guess. And just going out and trying new things, traveling around the country. But I was like, you know, just,

I could think creatively speaking, I was getting a little, I guess bored. You know, because again, these lessons have been around. It's just maintenance. You know, so yeah, like I was doing great.

It's my family business. I'm happy.

“But there was a creative side of me, you know,”

I'm a musician. I haven't played in years. I guess I still call myself a musician. But there's a creative side of me that, I guess, was like, you know, missing something, you know,

like something I wanted to do with myself, and not a brand that my family took over. And we're just maintaining it and, you know, just making it better. But, you know, the foundation is there.

So then I kind of always talked to my dad about,

like, I want to open something new. I want to open something in my own twist. And then that's when I noticed courage. And I was like, okay, that's cool. And then sort of seeing other places

or bakeries open up. And then one time I told my dad, I'm like, um, you quote, if I step away from the company and try to do my own thing. And my dad was like, do, of course,

you know, he's been super supportive. I mean, obviously he's he is my, you know, my parents are my, I would say, you know, partners, silent partners in this project.

Um, so he, I got really lucky because they let me use, you know, our, big business to develop my own stuff, you know, so I would go on a night when the crew was gone. You know, 10 to 11 at night and just experiment with my dough

and bake it there, you know, because I knew I had three, I had to get it. Yeah, they're before their bakers came in kind of doing. So, yeah, I got really lucky in those things.

Thank you so much for talking to us Carlos. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're like keep on pushing those vehicles.

Thank you. This is Christopher Kimmel from Milk Street Radio. On a recent episode, Jose Andre's reveal secrets from Spain. Like if you're out of Spanish restaurant

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Let's hear our first question.

Hi, love you guys.

“I was wondering what is the best flower for making bagels?”

Do I need a high protein or high gluten flower? Can I use our purpose? Okay, this is a good question. This is a foundational question. So we have talked that much on the show about high gluten flower.

High gluten flower is a product that we sell. Other flower producers also make a high gluten flower. And that is a higher, also a higher protein flower. We have talked a lot on the show about what protein levels in flower mean. And I think our high gluten flower is 14% protein.

So compare that to our all-purpose flower, which is 11% and then our bread flower, you know, comes in between the two. So you don't need necessarily high gluten flower to make great bagels, but you do need a higher protein flower.

So, you know, can you make bagels with all purpose flower? Yes.

But you're going to, you're going to sacrifice some of that chewiness

that you would get by using a flower that has higher protein, like a bread flower or a high gluten flower. I think this is where people get sort of twisted and they make bagels that end up just tasting and feeling like bread, is where they maybe they're using all purpose flower instead.

Because without all that protein in the flower, it's really hard to get the chewy density, which I say with love, you know, that you want to be a go for that. That I want in a bagel. Yeah.

I mean, then you're starting the other thing about bagels, which we haven't talked about yet, is that, you know, that dough requires a really long mix time. Like a machine mix to, you know, get that proper strength and development which gives it that chewiness.

So obviously starting with a flower that has more protein and it is going to give you a head start. And then, you know, it gets mixed for like, you know, eight or ten minutes in a stand mixer with a dough hook till it's like a really strong dough.

I like to say it's like the alone a mar of dough. See you now. Yes. No idea what that means. But yes. High gluten flour is a really fun flower to work with,

especially for making bagels. If you haven't used it before, it is remarkable what just a little bit more gluten can do. Sorry, did I pronounce gluten right? I think it's a little...

Get your tea. Yeah, I've got to hit 90. It's remarkable what a little more gluten can do. When I make bagels with high gluten flour, I'm like, this is what they make rubber bands out of.

It is like the dough is still strong. You can tug at it and it doesn't break. It doesn't break. It doesn't tear.

“With bread flour, you need to do a little bit more mixing.”

You need to develop that gluten a little bit more high gluten flour. It allows you to do a somewhat shorter mix because it gets so quicker. It also makes the bagels relatively easy to shape. It's not a sticky dough. It doesn't stick to the countertop.

You do maybe need to let it rest a bit more than you would maybe with a bagel made from bread flour because the gluten is so strong. Yes, nothing to buy. Especially when it comes to the rolling stage. It just wants to, you roll your snake, say, if you're shaping your bagels,

You know, the snake wants to snap back. Yes, right.

“So you just have to, and that's what it's interesting to do,”

bagel making, I mean, a lot of things in a sort of serialized way, right? So it's like, you roll one snake, then you roll the others,

then you come back to the first one and by the time you get back to,

you know, you've done it doesn't bagels, you come back to the first one. It's like, had five minutes or seven minutes to kind of relax, and they didn't able to stretch it to the length that you want. Totally. Yeah, I think high gluten flour is like a fun thing to have in your toolkit.

I mean, it's not something you're going to use for cakes, like you're going to use it for bread. Oh, cotton. And you're using it for bagels. So it has, you know, a more limited application then say the all purpose, but the application that is intended for, I think it really shines.

And bagels is one of them. And interestingly, we've spent a lot of time on this program, not today, but then other episodes talking about sourdough lows with big open crumbs.

And a lot of people who are doing those really high hydration, super open sourdoughs

are throwing a little bit of high gluten flour in the mix because that protein is creating that really strong gluten network that can support a really open, and crumb in a lot of air. So it has applications beyond bagels. Yeah. So look at it. Get it back. Yeah, great question. Let's hear our next one.

“What should I add to the water to boil the bagels in?”

I have been adding the last is, and they're not super excited about the sheen and the finish of the skin. It just doesn't feel like the bagels that you get are true bagels shop. What's the best option at home to boil the bagels? This is controversial. This is controversial.

And I think back to what we're saying earlier about regionality. There is some regional indication. I think for what you do or do not put in your water. So typically, I think I can say typically, there's some sort of sweetener added to the water in which you boil your bagels.

We were talking earlier about Montreal that sweetener's honey, which gives them, you know, sort of distinct flavor. But also, I mean, barley malt syrup is another tradition. Some people brown sugar in their water. I mean, we know that there are other strong opinions that's company about this, including we mentioned, you know, Jonathan Frischeck as our, our, you know, our bagels are true. So it's a bagel.

Yeah, yeah. He has, he has a take on this. Yeah, he doesn't put anything in his water at all. Which I think is an interesting take because it really drives home the point that this is not a,

this is not a critical part of the process.

You can still make a bagel without, you know, putting honey or barley malt syrup in your water. So it just indicates anybody's really worried about that. Don't let that stop from making bagels. I think he doesn't like to put anything as water because he just doesn't want to sweet bagel. And that is, you know, another sort of criticism of a lot of modern bagels right now is that they are pretty sweet. That you can get some pretty sweet bagels out there.

So anything to cut down on that. I mean, adding a some sweetener to the water will help with browning, but it's not the, I mean, a strong bagel. It's a strong bagel. So I'll help with browning. And now it's just shine too. I'm giving it gives your bagel and how should the parent to be bagel and the flavor. I don't, I don't mind the little sweetness on my bagel. So I put whatever. Yeah, if I had, I don't know, are you personally asking me color?

Let me tell you, I, if I have a liquid sweetener around like the malt syrup or honey, maybe even maple syrup. I'll maybe go through a little bit in there. But I, Yeah, I mean, I would say barley malt syrup. It's not the easiest thing to eat your hands on.

Like they haven't, I mean, it's not the hardest thing. But they haven't health food stores. But I don't want to go to that health food store. Yeah, you have to go to health food store. So it can be, you know, sometimes that feels like a roadblock.

Then you can use a different sweetener or you can leave it out. There's not like a hard and fast rule about it. Yeah. So do what you want to do. Do you know if you're alive?

Yep. Um, let's go to our last question. What is the best way to shape bagels?

“Have you noticed how many of our colleagues want to know about the best way?”

I mean, I, I, I share that. You're like, tell me the best place to get the chocolate chip cookie. Tell me the best. I mean, sometimes there is a clear best. And sometimes there is, I mean, I don't think we're just hedging our best to say like,

you know, there are different different strokes for different folks. Yeah. However, there is the best way to shape a bagel. No. Well, actually, I think I wonder what you're going to say it is.

Because, uh, well, you know, there are two main ways to make a bagel. Two main ways.

Um, they both get you bagels.

Yeah. So it's the both find. Um, I have a pretty strong opinion about which way is preferred. Uh-huh. And to my shock and this may one day I opened up our big book of bread.

Our own book. So the best bagels. The best bagels. And saw that it was shaped in the way that I do not do it.

“So, uh, which I think just goes to show that you're right.”

There are many ways in there all that are going to get you there. Um, in the big book of bread. Yes. You poke. You make a round of a bow and you poke through it with your thumb.

Um, and then you sort of use your fingers to expand the whole. If you, those of you are watching YouTube can can see me. Yeah.

And there are some pictures in the big book of bread that illustrate this idea.

Yeah. Yes. And I want to say something about that. Which is that I think if you are a new bagel baker. It is.

Perhaps easier than the other method. Because the other method has you rolling a length of dough into a snake. Like we were talking about. And then you sort of wrap the snake around your four fingers of your hand. Yeah. And, you know, overlapping the ends lately.

And then, you know, you press to seal. And then you roll on that that seam there where you seal the ends together. Right. And, you know, if you're good at it, you can get a uniformly, you know, wide bagel all the way around. Like you, or you can just get a uniform bagel.

If you're not good at it, you get a bagel that's like uniform except where the seams connect. And it's like thin and, you know, and weird. Yeah. So I would say like having made bagels, many bagels in my life. I prefer the snake method. Like I think I don't know.

It's like to me is like a more pleasing round shape. The holes a little bit bigger. But I would say it's more challenging to get an even bagel. So if you're making bagels for the first time, you might want to start with a poke method. Because you don't have to worry about the seam.

And, like, if you don't connect the seam well enough, like the bagel can come apart in the water. Yeah. You know, I think that the rolling and shaping around your hand, I think, is the traditional way. And so that's why some people are partial about that.

“And I think that's the only way to do it.”

As you know, bagels are, you know, people have a lot of feelings steeped in big old tradition about, you know, how to make them. My only concern about the poke method, which I think is a perfectly great method, and we'll get you a big old. It's like, you make the whole big enough because what I think is a tragedy is when the bagel hole closes. And then you have something that looks like looks like a butt, you know. You know, or it looks like a swollen eye.

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know if you watched that video that Priya Krishna did in New York times where she went to the bagel. It was like a day in the life of the bagel. And she, you know, tracks them through process of making these bagels.

And it was amazing to watch like the pro bagel makers that are rolling two bagels on their hands at once.

It's like, it's really kind of next level. It's so fast. Yeah. I am not fast like that. I am very slow.

But, yeah, like we said, there's no like right way. There's no best way. There's just sort of two different paths. Two different paths. Both of which will get you a good bagel.

Yeah. If you do it right. All right. Thanks for those questions, Collars.

“We're now going out of the question segment and into the opinions segment.”

Because every episode, we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-threaded ideas are in her head. Cannot wait to hear what your final just opinion of season three is. Don't you like how I go from the question period where I'm like, it's fine. It's all good. Like everybody do what you want.

It all works. And then we get to the opinions. And I'm like, but actually there's only one right away. I think there's nothing more gross. Okay.

I mean, they're probably more gross things. Cream cheese applied to a hot toasted bagel. Hmm. Make this make sense to me. Because I mean, I know in New York, as you said, like,

most bagel shops are not going to toast a bagel because they're fresh and delicious. But also probably because they know it's gross to put cream cheese on a hot bagel. Because it starts to slide around. Oh, yeah. I mean, meltole, I mean, people do it all the time.

I'm like, toast my bagel. And then I'm like, what? Like then. And you know, it does present a laundry because I do like a toasted bagel. Especially like if you're not getting a super fresh bagel.

The shock on your face, I wish. Hey, people go, go to YouTube so you can see it. Like I do like a toast on a bagel because often the ones I'm getting are not. Like super fresh. You know, I'm not going to the New York bagel shops again.

So I like a little toast. But then I'm presented with a dilemma. If I want to put cream cheese on that, like I have to let the toasted bagel cool. Yeah. And that's kind of weird then because like a toast, a cold toast.

Like we're not in England. You know, I don't want cold toasted things. Oh, wow. Wow.

Um, so I don't know. I just, I see people doing it. I see people toast in their bagel and then slapping that cream cheese on. And not for me. No, thank you.

Uh, I can I think this is a pretty tame recipe. I agree with you 100%. Well, I mean, I think what you're doing right here is a PSA. America, like, stop doing this thing that doesn't make any sense. You're not if you're putting cream cheese on a hot bagel.

You're not really getting the cream cheese. It's melted all over your mouth. Like where is it? I don't know, but you don't you didn't get any amount. Yeah.

“And then of course, it follows up with my other problem is like you have to put on so much cream cheese”

to get the stick and then you have too much cream cheese. Um, and then you put a whole half pint of cream cheese on there. Some of it melts off. Yeah. You still got like four to pint less.

Um, and then, you know, let's just say for a second,

enclosing what is up with the blueberry bagel. I'm just going to leave out there. Oh, wow. I'm just going to leave out there. Leave out there to discuss until the next season.

Okay, great. It's not right. And as a person that comes from a state where the blueberry is revered. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

The blueberry is king in my home state of Maine. But you know where it doesn't belong in a bagel. Well, you know what my favorite bagel growing up was? The chocolate chip bagel. Oh, boy.

Now I should really go to prison for that. Yeah. You should. Can't believe you're saying that. I did.

I'm out. I'm reformed. First you say in your bagels or trash. And then at the very tail end of the season, you copped a loving and chocolate chip bagel.

Having once loved. Yes. Having once loved. Well, we've grown. We've changed.

Yes.

We throughout the course of the season and our lives.

Also. Maybe. Yeah. Well, before we go though. What are you going to bake this week?

Well, speaking of chocolate. Yeah. You're going to eat because now when I'm right. So I want to bake those. I think chocolate.

Uh. We recently came out with the recipe for small batch chocolate cupcakes. I love this. Yeah. I mean, I love a cupcake.

I'm a kid at heart. Yeah. I know. I'm just a sweet innocent child. And I want a chocolate cupcake.

Whist sprinkles on it. I'm I ever going to have an opportunity to make 12 cupcakes. Like what would I do with them? I guess I would throw them in the freezer, which is something my mom does. I didn't know you could do it.

Oh, she puts the frosted cupcakes in the freezer. Yeah. Full front. Yeah. She was buying in the bakery in this band in the freezer.

It works. Uh, but I don't do that. And so the small batch chocolate cupcake recipe is for me. Because I came for it. It makes four.

Which is about how many I will eat after dinner. Yeah. Maybe you can give one to your husband. One to my husband is really for me. And which makes a big slice of cake.

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I have the opposite problem because I imagine making four cupcakes for my family. And I imagine the revolt.

The revolt. Yeah.

“My children would be like, where are the other eight?”

You know? Um, but that is a great recipe. I got to taste that one in development too. Um, and it's like, you know, it's so great. Because it's such a small amount of ingredients that you can mix it in a single ball.

You know, it's really like a no fuss path to you. And cupcakes are fast. You know, like they don't be very long. Right. It's like start to finish.

You can have cupcakes. Like almost immediately close to immediately. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm going to make. Well, I know I've been like agonizing over the weather throughout the course of the season.

But I'm at the stage now where I go to my yard like every day and like look for like what's growing out there. Like we have a garden.

And the first thing that comes up like that I am like on hands and knees.

Like pouring around in the mulch for is our rhubarb plant. And that to me is like the real harbinger of spring. I don't have enough to cut from my rhubarb plant yet. But the grocery store now is starting to get some imported rhubarb. And so I'm going to make these swirled rhubarb bars.

We've talked about these on the show before. You really like this. I love them. It's a blondie base. And then you make like a quick stovetop jam with rhubarb that gets like swirled into the top.

Um, and there's really elegant. I will mention. They have white chocolate in them. Um, and I just, I mean, I'm on record. So I just omit the white chocolate.

I just do them with the white chocolate. But if you like white, white, white chocolate, you know, make the recipe is written. But those are like a nice little like shoulder season bake when you, you know, we're still waiting on the other stuff. So I'm going to make those.

It's a great recipe. It's a great recipe. And I get that is something I throw in the freezer so I can have rhubarb. All summer longer for or for at least two weeks. Yeah, yeah.

Well, it's kind of nice like you make your first rhubarb pie. And then it's like, okay, well, what now?

“And I think this is the answer to what now.”

Right. Yeah. Do you make like a 100% rhubarb pie? I do. Yeah. I don't mess with strawberry rhubarb.

Yeah. I'm going to say that opinion for another episode. Okay. It's okay. So we'll save that for season four.

But thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers now. Yes. Remember to like the pie cast and subscribe to it. Go on Apple pie cast YouTube Spotify. Amazon music.

Whatever you listen and you like and subscribe us there. You can leave a review also for this episode or any of the episodes.

Right. And they should know. So share an episode.

“Share the season with a friend that can binge.”

You know, it's kind of nice when you get to.

I love when I discover, you know, like a book or a movie. And I'm like, oh, this author, this like, you know, whatever. Like it's new to me. And then you can go back and read or watch. You know, their other work.

And so now there's three whole seasons. People can just listen their way through all summer long to go back to season four. And we're on sub stack.

“So you can continue to hear from us there.”

We will send a few new setters out here and there between seasons.

And you can read through our types there. Everything we do is every green. We never get old. No, forever young. We're always right.

And we're always timely. Yes.

That's the thing about us.

And in the meantime. Yes. Follow the recipe folks. Follow the recipe.

“Things Bakers know is hosted and executive produced by me, David, to market.”

And me, Jessica Battalana. Rossi and Estupulo with our senior producer, Chad Chennai is our producer and Marcus Bagala is our engineer, original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala. Special thanks to this week's guest Carlos Perez from Boyle and Baked.

To learn more about his work, check out Boyle and Baked.com. Things Bakers know is a King Arthur Baking company podcast. This episode is brought to you by a new collaboration between King Arthur and Supernatural. Supernatural, of course, is the maker of America's brightest,

Dye Free Sprinkles. And we are putting those sprinkles in our new confetti cake mix and confetti sugar cookie mix. Let me tell you something. I made the cake and I made it to an ice cream cake. It was gorgeous.

It was celebratory. It was like my birthday, but it wasn't even my birthday. Find both mixes at Target. Target.com. And of course, at King Arthur Baking.com.