Vanilla: Boring or the Best? with Claire Saffitz

to talk about Vandalin. - Yeah.

- But I do think we should brainstorm

some different names for it. - We are. - I'm gonna say Felicia. (laughing) - Let's just call it Felicia.

(laughing) - From King Arthur Bacon Company, this is Things Bakers.

“No, I'm Jessica Badalana, King Arthur, staff editor.”

- And I'm David's Markin, editor director at King Arthur Bacon. - And today, we're talking about Vanilla. (bell ringing) You know, it's kind of funny, 'cause somewhere along the line,

Vanilla became a descriptor for like a really basic, super boring, kind of ordinary thing or person. - Yeah, but it's absolutely. - Yeah, not that you've ever used it that way. - No, of course.

- It's actually one of the most fascinating, delicious ingredients in the world.

And I learned so much researching this

that really is kind of mind-blowing. - Yeah, today we are gonna flip the script on Vanilla and after this episode, you're gonna be using the term Vanilla to describe interesting things.

- Yeah. - Like, quantum physics, so Vanilla. You know, like, the state of the world is so Vanilla. Oh my gosh. - I love it, yeah.

We're just, you know, we're reimagining. So, before we get into talking about, like the flavor of Vanilla,

“I think we need to talk about what Vanilla is.”

- Yes. - You're gonna give me a lesson, I can feel it. - Yeah. - Like you should sense it coming. - Make us really starting to evolve.

So, Vanilla is the seed pod of a vanilla orchid. I mean, if you've ever seen a vanilla bean,

you're like, yeah, that tracks.

It looks like a withered seed pod. And these orchids are, you know, they're a fair weather plant. They only grow in like a really narrow band around the equator.

So, or in, you know, in a greenhouse, right? But really they're like home base is, you know, right around the equator, including Madagascar, where half of the world's Vanilla is produced, which is kind of crazy, 'cause Madagascar,

not a huge place to heaty Mexico, Uganda. There's a very small amount of Vanilla produced in Hawaii, in Ecuador, but it's, you know, like wine or cheese, where the Vanilla's grown has an impact on sort of its flavor.

So, terrible. - It has terroir. - Yes. - There's a lot. - What did I say, terroir?

- Terroir. - Terroir. - How do you stick so nervous? - I know, but I can't stand it for the fences. - You keep putting these foreign words in and trying your back.

- I can say them when I'm not on camera. - Yeah, sure. - Which, by the way, were on YouTube and Spotify now, watch us. - Yeah, you're watching me whisper now before.

- I just imagine you're a bathroom mirror every morning like terroir. Biscotti. - I can do it. I can do it.

- But it's also, as we talked about, like very labor intensive to grow vanilla. - Like, this isn't just like a set it and forget it kind of plan. You need it, you need the right weather.

So, it's a crop that's very susceptible to a warming climate, which is the thing that's happening now. - Vanilla orchids are hermaphroditic, which means that they have both male and female,

we could have to organs, however, for whatever reason. The Vanilla flower is self sterile. - So, all of the Vanilla orchids in the world have to be hand-pulled. - I mean, this somebody has to go easy.

- This is crazy, the thing about. I don't know exactly how it's done, that would be interesting to like drill down more on how things are hand-pullinated, but you know, you start to see like, "Okay, here we have this plant,

"that only grows in a really narrow band in the world, "that will not propagate in less human intervenes." And that discovery was actually made in the, you know, 1840s, so there was an enslaved, I was gonna say man, but really a child, 12-year-old,

Edmund Albius, and he worked on a plantation on the island of Reunion, but he learned that, you know, they brought these vines to Reunion Island, which is in the Indian Ocean. And they were like, "Hey, nothing's happening,

"like these vines aren't, you know, like they're not propagating." And so he realized that they all had to be hand-pullinated. I doubt they gave them a lot of credit for that discovery,

“but that's the only way that Vinelli's been able to flourish”

in places around the world because he discovered that they all have to be hand-pullinated. - Yeah, that's what a dark version story. - I mean, so many storage and storage, dark storage and storage, to further complicate things.

So like, here it is, narrow band of the world. Now it has to be hand-pullinated. You can only hand-pullinate Vinelli being orchids for a couple of hours is the window of pollination. - That's the window for which the pollination will take.

- Yes. - So like, God help you if you're on your lunch break then. Like, forget it, it's just like the crop is. And then they're like adding to all of that, like the, you know, the weather things.

So, so once the flowers are pollinated,

- Yeah.

“- The seeds, and that's what we really think of”

as the vanilla beans. - Yeah, the seed pods.

And they sort of look like green beans are about the sides

of the longest green beans. - Yeah. - And they're not like the sticky pods we think of when we think of vanilla like that we would buy the grocery store, you know, from the wholesaler.

Before we can use them, those pods have to be cured. - Yeah. - Like, I'm not mistaken. - Yep, then dried. - And that's when they become the black,

shriveled pods that we know and are obsessed with. - Yeah, I mean, truly it is, so, you know, when you think about all that, you're like, well, no wonder like vanilla and vanilla extract, vanilla beans vanilla extract are really expensive.

So, right now, I mean, when I last checked, I don't know if it's like how much it varies day to day,

but a kilo, so 2.2 pounds of vanilla bean pods,

Madagascar grown vanilla bean pods is gonna run you about 300 bucks. - Yeah, that to be fair, that is a lot of vanilla beans.

“- And, you know, I think a little vanilla does go a long way,”

like a little real vanilla, but not as far as you'd think. And so, of course, like, now there is a robust secondary vanilla production, which is artificial vanilla. Because true vanilla is so expensive that, you know, given our, like, worldwide appetite for vanilla

and the flavor of a vanilla, like, we can't keep up, like, there just simply is not enough true vanilla in the world to satisfy the world's desire. - And I'm glad that we have a separate name for this artificial vanilla.

I pronounce it Vanolene. - Yeah, that's right. - So, and it's what gives, you know,

gives a vanilla ish flavor and a aroma to things.

So, Vanolene is a compound that is bound naturally in vanilla beans, but the artificial version, of course, is vanilla lab, synthesized from guacal and oil. - There we go again, I'm just setting you up these words for petrochemicals.

- Petrochemicals. - Yeah. - And of course, it's much, much, much, much expensive. - Yes, it's much, much, much, less expensive. I mean, there's some irony here, right?

Like, vanilla is, as I said, the top of the show is supposed to be, like, the most basic, boring flavor. Yet, our collective desire for things flavored like vanilla is an, and also, I should say, scented, like vanilla, is so great that it's just, like, vastly outpaces

the amount of natural vanilla that we can produce. So, I mean, Vanolene, to the rescue question mark? - I don't know, but, I mean, imitation vanilla is the standard for vanilla flavored things that are, you know, sort of mass market products.

So, like, you know, vanilla box mix, birthday cake, vanilla frosting, like anything that you buy, you know, not from a bakery, but from a store that's a sweet thing that has vanilla. - And it's relatively cheap.

- Israel is going to have Vanolene, and I do sort of have, and I'm not alone in this, like, I have a sort of nostalgia for that flavor, 'cause I think it is the flavor of, you know, birthday cake. You know, when we talk about birthday cake flavored things,

what we're talking about is a Vanolene flavor thing. And I mean, and we've talked about this in previous episodes, like, these things are like engineered to be delicious. Like they capture some of the essence, and then, you know, and I almost amp it up in this sort of artificial way,

but it is kind of compelling. - Yeah. I think Vanolene, you know, artificial vanilla essence, whatever you want to call it, has had an interesting journey through, in the court of public opinion.

- Yeah, yeah. - And I think it's a generational thing, you know, I think, you know, previous generations to ours, probably like, a lot of them, you know, didn't want anything to do with Vanolene, because it was new and, yeah, fake.

But our generation and generations, actors were really raised on this stuff, so it's very nostalgic for us. So, you know, I think what in Christina Tosie has really led the charge of reclaiming that flavor of Vanolene

as a specific flavor, an nostalgic one. One that is where there's no shame in chasing,

“if you want to, you know, she's really, she's really,”

she's really gone sort of deep in the pocket, she's deep in the pockets of corporate vanilla. (laughing) No, she, but she really makes a good point. Like if you want that classic birthday cake flavor

that you are an nostalgic for from your childhood, you need the data length, you do not want, you know, of Vanolene being. So, it's an interesting thing, and I can appreciate, you know, the, the, the no shame of it all,

like there's no shame of it either. I wish that I had a different name. Yeah. Because I think like Vanolene is to vanilla at, you know, there's different things.

And I don't want to, you know,

to talk about Vanolene.

But I do think we should brainstorm

some different names for it. Like I'm gonna say Felicia. (laughing) Let's just call it Felicia. (laughing)

“I think it's funny because the last time we brainstormed ideas”

was for white chocolate, and I don't think we were super successful. You know, like, I think it got cut from the episode. Oh, did it? Yeah. We had some great names that helped people with it

that I came up with. It's probably gonna get cut from this one too. (laughing) Can you imagine how many times you say it? I think it was creamy butter chips,

something like that. And the butter bread. And the butter bread. And the butter bread from our bad name suggestions that we work with words for a living.

They're like, uh, how much work shopping?

(laughing) But anyway, we'll do that later. We'll do that later. We'll do that on our own times. We'll do that on our own times.

Because we have, you know, we're sick of this true vanilla. And there are true vanilla. We are not alone in thinking like the vanilla is a really dynamic and interesting flavor.

And today we have one of the country's best bakers, Claire Saffetz, who is a staunch defender and vanilla enthusiast here to talk to us. So I wanna give time for that conversation. And I wanna give time for listener questions.

So let's hear your conversation with Claire. - Yeah, Claire Saffetz probably does not need introduction to most of our audience, but in case you don't know her, she's the author of two cookbooks, dessert person, and what's for dessert?

She has robust YouTube operation. She's out there cooking on YouTube. All the time, she of course was one of the famous Bon Appetit crew, and she got, you know, a lot of attention for her series.

They're called Gourmet Make, which was recreating a lot of mass produced snacks. A lot of them which use the vanilla. - Yeah. - And of course, she was, you know, remaking them in a gourmet way.

When I text the Claire and asked her to come on this episode specifically, I said, this is the right episode for you, right? Like you wanna, would you wanna talk about and she was like, absolutely, name a better flavor.

Just try, just name one, have you clog? - You don't need to, don't yell at me. Or if you're gonna yell at me, yell at me on the podcast. - That's recorded. - Oh, she did. So let's listen.

- Claire, Saf, it's welcome to Things Pickers. No, it's been such a long time that I've wanted you to be on this podcast, my friend. You are one of the world's biggest vanilla fans. When I texted you and asked what you thought

about vanilla, you said, name a better flavor. Just name one, which is very interesting to the point. I could not name one. - Uh-huh. Okay, well, thank you for having me on.

I am very excited to be here. And I am honored to be on the vanilla episode because it is truly one of the great flavors and so unique and special. And I don't know how the word vanilla

got associated with something like bland and boring 'cause it is neither bland nor boring. So I'm very excited to talk about it. - But do you feel like, do you ever taste things that are vanilla, like the cake or whatever?

You taste of vanilla cupcakes, say? And you think yourself, actually this is bland and boring, this does not have enough vanilla flavor.

“Do you think people are using enough vanilla in their baked goods?”

- I think sometimes the word vanilla is like the default flavor. It sort of like it doesn't have a flavor. So it gets labeled vanilla, maybe because it has a couple of teaspoons of vanilla extract in it.

But I do think if you're gonna market it as vanilla, it should have a distinct vanilla flavor and or like maybe you see specs of vanilla bean in it because I kind of want to see the proof a little bit. Like if it's a cake, it doesn't just call it butter cake.

If it doesn't have a flavor in a sense, like it doesn't, vanilla should not just be the label that it gets to make it sound like it has something in it. So yeah, if it's being sold to me as of vanilla something, I want to see it and I want to smell it

and I want to taste it for sure. - Can you describe what vanilla tastes like? I think this is a tricky question, but I'm gonna throw it to you anyway. Can you describe it, like how would you describe it

to somebody who has never had it?

- I think it's like you can't define the word with the word. Like I don't know it is to me sort of indescribable if you can't, if you haven't had it, it is very aromatic, even a little bit spicy.

“But I think it's sort of hard to describe what,”

because it's so singular. It's like it doesn't have a lot in common with a lot of other types of flavors. But I'm just dancing around the idea of what it actually tastes like, which is to say that it just tastes like vanilla.

I think it's so hard to describe without saying that it tastes like vanilla. - Yeah, I mean, I think you did a great job, but I also love that you caught out the spiciness and that you caught out that it can be aggressive, because there have been moments,

especially when I bake with vanilla beans that I feel like I've overdone it, like it can get very intense. And in Insta Strongflib, it's the opposite of what the reputation is, right?

It can be very strong and very not vanilla, very, I think it could be sort of like a bully of a flavor

- Yes, and I think there's also so much variation

and quality of vanilla. So one vanilla product compared to another might taste very, very different, actually.

“So that's another reason why I think it's difficult”

to kind of pin it down in a way, like it can be really spicy, it can be very floral. I think vanilla is one of those things where there's so many flavor compounds going on. You know, from one vanilla to another or from paste to extract

or from time of year, like there's probably so many variations from, you know, magic, gascar, vanilla to tissue, vanilla, that kind of thing. But when you have a high quality vanilla product, like you're using like a nice soft juicy hole

than it'll be, and it can be very overpowering, I also think it has that very perfume quality, and it's not just because it is used,

like literally in perfume and candles in other sense.

So it is, like I said before, it's just that it is that very singular aroma and flavor. It has to be used very carefully and thoughtfully 'cause it can overpower or it can totally disappear. So you have to be sort of conscious of the product

that you're using and how strong it is in that kind of thing. It's not just like any vanilla extract or any paste or we're having all it being. - Yeah, to 100% and, you know, this brings me to one of my questions for you,

which was what is your preferred vehicle? For vanilla, is it extract as it paste as it being, but also, can you talk a little bit about whether vanilla is the kind of thing where you get what you pay for? I mean, because you're talking about like,

all these flavor compounds,

“how careful do you have to be about the quality of those?”

- Yes, but some might preferred vehicle, these days is paste, I love, I love vanilla paste, I think you get, it's just like this perfect, kind of middle ground where you get, it's more, it's stronger, a more pungent and effective

than extract, but you get the ease of extract, which is just like, and I keep it in a squeeze bottle, I have to say, I tend to be pretty extra, I get it with my vanilla use and so, and part of that is because I keep it in a squeeze bottle,

it's so easy to just add a couple little shots of it to whatever it is I'm making. So I love it, I think like scraping of vanilla, the vanilla beans are, it's a little risky for vanilla because they dry out so fast, so, in this kind of segues

into your question about price, I like to buy vanilla beans in bulk, but it's risky because if they dry out, then you're kind of at a loss. So I just feel like keeping paste is like,

you get a lot of the benefit of the bean 'cause you have the seeds in there, you get the ease of extract, you get a flavor that's somewhere in the middle, in terms of it's like potency.

So as far as price, I generally think you get what you pay for, but I do think there's crazy price gouging that happens actually with vanilla. So I would just shop around and like compare prices.

“I think that there is stuff at the grocery store”

that's 20 bucks, that's really, really expensive, and you can get a better deal elsewhere, and I would definitely consider buying in bulk because you'll get a much better deal and like an extract if it's store,

well, like you know, there's nothing's gonna happen to it. So also, I feel like my mom's a replaced by vanilla extract is TJ Maxx, they have it on the shelves, I don't know if it's good or not, but I think you can get a deal.

- I think TJ Maxx and home goods is the premier store for vanilla. I mean, I think you really can't get good vanilla there, that's why I bought vanilla for so many is when I looked at Chicago that I would just stock up

on vanilla there. So sometimes you're using paste, sometimes you're using your home at extract, sometimes you're using beans, what types of recipes do you feel

allow vanilla to shine the best?

- For me, it's always like the dairy heavy,

this simple dairy heavy recipes, which almost always means custard. So of an alliance cream, a flan, a panacotta, to me, dairy is a blank canvas. You know, there's certain, like obviously we know

that the flavors in vanilla are soluble and alcohol, but I just feel like they also really come through in dairy and maybe that's partly 'cause there's some fat soluble, flavor compounds, or just by heating it, it's infusing the dairy,

but the way that vanilla bean and seeds infuse the flavor of dairy like milk or cream is so special. And so delicious, and also you're really seeing the seeds when you're working with a custard of some kind. So that's where I really use it.

I feel like in a cake recipe where you're adding starch, I would just go extract because it's like, you have other things that are kind of competing, but the canvas of just a creamy, delicious recipe is so perfect for vanilla.

And that's where I really want it. And that's where I think you really experience

flavor from vanilla. I love that you, I talk about the flavor, but also the visuals too, and because that is such a big part of it. I understand you're obsessed with vanilla,

you can't get away from it, you dream about vanilla, you named your child vanilla, like I get it, but also you're also pairing with vanilla a lot of ways, right? So what do you think are the best pairings

with vanilla? - Great question.

“I think you cannot make a chocolate chip cookie”

without a ton of vanilla. So it's somewhere along the way in my baking journey. And I don't remember when I came from, I learned the idea that to get butter-scotch flavor of any kind, you have to combine,

it's the combination of butter and sugar and vanilla.

And it's such an essential like trifecta,

these three things combined. So for a chocolate chip cookie or a blondie, any kind of baked good where you want a butter-scotchiness, whether that's from caramel or toffee or any combination of these flavors that you have to have,

a lot of vanilla is so essential. So as a brown butter, brown butter and vanilla together are just the most magical combination. Vanilla and citrus zest also is such creates this kind of hybrid floral flavor enhancer

that is so magical, like, or zest and vanilla together in, like a sweet bun or in a cake is, it isn't somewhere as a greater than the sum of its part. You could do orange zest, lemon zest and vanilla together. And if you have vanilla, if you have seeds from a bean

and you have zest and you massage it into sugar, the perfume that it creates is so, so amazing and powerful.

“So those are the times where I think Vanilla is so enhancing”

and it does not get lost. Like all of those things together kind of create a new,

even more amazing flavor.

And then there's other combinations where I think it can be overpowered or it just gets lost and kind of obscured. And so then I'm gonna maybe throw in a little bit of, maybe extract just there in the background. I think sometimes chocolate and vanilla,

like chocolate is a really strong flavor. So I think it's not, of course it's delicious, but it just doesn't work with chocolate in the same way that it works with these other kinds of ingredients.

So yeah, citrus and anything like butter scotchy, caramelty, definitely. - Clare savets. Thank you so much for being on things Biggest Now. It was a pleasure to have you here.

This will not be the only time we ask you to be on the show so I hope you'll come again. - Thank you for having me on. - This episode is brought to you by our recipe of the year, flaky puff crust pizza.

That may sound familiar to you. That's because we did a whole episode on this special recipe back in January. But the pizza is so good.

“We think you should be baking it all year long.”

It's like if a pizza and a croissant had a baby, you would have-- - You're just showing off with your presentations now. - For sure, hi. So flaky, so crispy, so delicious.

And also, critically, it can be made in under two hours. - It's a really fun big too. - Yeah. - We have to do lamination, but it's not hard lamination, and then the, you know, it just turns out each time.

- It turns out and feeds a crowd, which I think is really nice. - You can find the recipe by searching flaky puff crust pizza on our website. We also have a video showing you how to make flaky puff crust.

Pizza say that 10 times fast on our YouTube channel. (upbeat music) - Hey, it's Francis Lamb, host of the splendid table podcast. Every week on a show, we celebrate the intersection of food and life.

In this month, we're releasing a news series called culinary masters. It highlights some of those iconic people in the food world. And we're revisiting conversations with people who have fundamentally changed.

How many of us cook and think about food? People like Jacques Le Pan, Claudia Rodin, and Tony Bourdain, the name of few. You can listen to this special series now. Just search for the splendid table

and your podcast app. - It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers. For Ask the Bakers, we wanna hear from you. If you have a burning question for us, head to KingArthurbaking.com/podcast to record a question

and we may end up using it on the show. That's KingArthurbaking.com/podcast. - And of course, if you have a baking question right now, that's simply cannot wait.

You can always reach out to our Bakers hotline

by a phone, email or online chat. There's an actual real human with baking experience on the other end, it's wild. You can go to KingArthurbaking.com/bakers-hotline. Or call us 85-371-2253, that's 225-3 as in-bake.

- We're here for you.

- Let's go to our first question.

“- I've heard that vanilla paste is all the rage.”

What makes it supposedly better than vanilla extract? And how do I substitute it into recipes? - Oh, I love this. Get this, isn't it?

What makes it so rude? - Oh, no, it was like, what makes it supposedly better? - The shade. - I know, I appreciate this. (laughing)

- Well, you know, I think better, right? It's not necessarily better, it's just different. - It's just different. - So I say to my kids, you know. - I think that, you know, and actually,

when we were talking about this yesterday, one of my first reactions was well, it's a lot of the great things about vanilla extract, but at a cheaper price point, actually not true. - Yeah, then you crunch some numbers,

and you're like, ounce for ounce, pretty much the same. - Pretty much the same. So, you know, and I know Claire talked about this a little bit, but of course, the vanilla bean paste. I mean, paste is a little bit of a misnomer

'cause when I think of a paste,

“I think of something with like the texture of peanut butter?”

- Yeah, like some of you think of bread, yeah. - And this is more like a, it's fluid, it's got some viscosity, it's like a syrup almost. - And yeah, I think that's a fair comparison because it also has sugar as sugar.

- I think those are the, one of the main things to know about vanilla paste, it's sweetened. It's not so sweetened that like, I mean, you're using it in such small quantities, it's not going to cross your recipe.

But it is a little sweetened. If you're putting it in whipped cream, it's going to sweeten your whipped cream just like that, but it's not going to give you, if you want for whatever reason,

an unsweetened vanilla whipped cream, then you would use vanilla extract, not vanilla paste. - Right, exactly. - So it's a little loose out on one of the other

key properties of the vanilla paste, which is your favorite property of the vanilla paste I think. - Yeah, well, that has the seeds in it. - Yeah, it's like, so if you want, if you're making something that is white in color,

and you want to see those vanilla bean flecks in there, which I think, it's sort of premium, you know, like, you want to eat first, baby? - Yeah, totally. - So I use vanilla bean paste if I'm making whipped cream,

vanilla frosting, you know, Cremberlay. - A white cake. - A white cake, because you're going to taste it, you're going to see it, if I'm making, you know, anything else, truly, I'll use vanilla extract.

And you can substitute them one for one. So if you're recipe calls for a teaspoon of vanilla extract, you can use a teaspoon of vanilla bean paste.

And, you know, we always, like, you'll see all over King Arthur,

we measure vanilla, they say, with our hearts. You know, we don't, we just, sort of, dump it in. - Charlotte, it's Holly on Instagram. I think she coined that phrase. - Oh yeah.

- We measure vanilla with our hearts. That's really taken. - I mean, that's really, it's a luxury stance. - Yeah. - Because we have an endless supply of vanilla.

At home, I'm like, I don't measure my heart. I measure them better. - Yeah, exactly, yeah. - Yeah, the nice thing, too, is like, vanilla extract vanilla bean paste, they don't expire.

I mean, maybe, I don't think so. I don't think they ever expire. And, you know, I'm always like, I go to visit my father, and my one of our family jokes is that I always, I'm like finding things in my dad's pantry

that are like, so old. - Well, you've had some really interesting stories. - Like, just some really wild stuff. And recently, he was like, I had this vanilla extract since your mother died.

My mother died, you know, like eight years ago. And he was like, is it still good? I was like, actually, that's the one thing I can say, yes, like, everything else in here should be thrown out. I love vanilla bean paste is fine.

- But, yeah. Let's go to our next question. (beep) - Hey, King Arthur baking. This is Jessica in Pikesville, Maryland,

and I've got a question for you. I am an avid home baker, and I have collected over the years many different extracts and flavorings, much more beyond simple vanilla extract, which definitely has its kind and place in baking.

So my question is, how do I substitute a different flavoring and different extract in a recipe in place of vanilla? Is it a one-to-one ratio? Or do I have to scale back, let's say,

an almond extract, the amount of an almond extract and comparison to the amount of a vanilla extract? How do I replace vanilla extract or some vanilla extract with a different extract, a different flavoring in my baking to experiment, to play around,

to make things a little different? I'm turning to you for this answer. I know you'll have a good one. I can't wait to hear it, thanks so much. - Do you see my eyes get wide

“when she was like, can I substitute them one for one?”

It's like Jessica, don't do it. - I did see your eyes wide. I paned. - Can you see me shaking my head? - Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean.

- Yeah, they're interesting, and I actually have a note, I want to give at the end of our answer about a specific extract, but why were your eyes getting wide?

- Well, first of all, I should say

Like, if you go to the grocery store,

there are, I mean, the ones that you might be more familiar with, on the next extract, peppermint extract, lemon extract, and then we start to get into sort of what I would consider to be more rogue territory, you know, orange extract, root beer extract.

Like, there are some-- - That's awesome. - Yeah, coconut extract extract, just, yeah, that are gonna have a more specific use case. - Yeah.

- And they vary greatly in strength. very, like, very different. I can't understand, I'm just, I'm at a loss for words because I'm so hard to say that most extracts that are not vanilla are stronger. So you would not do one to one because if you put it, if you measure with your heart with all the extracts or coconut extracts, you're going to have something inedible. Yeah, I mean, I'm an extract in particular, it's like a little bit of an extract delicious a lot and my bean poisoned.

“Oh, you know, like it's got such a strong bitter presence. So I would say, you know, if you want to, you know, if you want to mess around.”

I think I think the use case here is if you, what if there's a vanilla cake and you wouldn't turn it into a coconut flavor case. Sure. So your recommendation, let's say it calls for one teaspoon of vanilla, your recommendation for our coconut.

Yeah, I would start with like a quarter of that. I mean, you can always go up. You can never go down.

Yeah. And I think coconut, like, you know, because they're not, again, they're not all created equal. I would say coconut is not as powerful as like a lemon one or an almond one. I'm just getting really nervous about somebody putting in like a tablespoon of almond extract into something because it will be, it'll be inedible. How can they test this? So we cannot recommend tasting raw batter. So you can either like make the cake and just experiment in the next time you bump it up or down. Yeah, I guess you could maybe stir some extract into some whipped cream or something to taste the, how powerful it is.

Yeah, I mean, you know, we can't, we can't a good contra to say to taste the batter. No, we can't. We can't. That's all we can say and we won't. And we shouldn't. Yeah, it's not for all of you. That's a good place to leave it. I also think like where you're using the extract, like, you know, if you're using it in a batter, you know, versus a frosting or something. Yeah, like, you know, like you have more ingredients to dilute it.

So for things, it's a great place to stir a little batch, take a little batch out and that to do some math, you know, but yeah.

“And I think, you know, you've got to use your noodle about this a little bit. Like there are a lot of things that I'm like, well, you can't just like, I wouldn't just like dump a lemon extract into a chocolate cake.”

Like that's not going to be delicious. I mean, I don't think that Jessica's suggesting that, you know, but you want to think about like flavor pairing is like maybe an orange extract. Maybe a peppermint one, but, you know, it's going to change the, you know, it's going to change flavor cake. So it's a big wide world out there. It is. Yeah, it is. And I do think, um, yeah, a little experimentation, but just be, you know, just be careful about that almond extract. That's just really worth it.

Yeah, I'm really worried, Jessica. Next question. Hey, vanilla is pretty expensive. Are there sometimes I can get away with not using it? This is a great question. And a really fair question in this economy, like, yeah, I mean, come on. We want to make thinking as accessible as possible. And we did talk about this with Claire is really interested to hear her answer on this, because as someone who loves vanilla as much as she does. Where does she use it? Does she use it? Everything because, you know, so many solid cakes have you adding to the mix and is it necessary? That's kind of an interesting question.

So let's call out Claire. Now let's bring it back. I generally, even though I am someone who is adding vanilla to like a lot of my baked goods, I don't add it to every single one. I don't think it's an afterthought in that way. That's like, oh, just the thing you add a couple of splashes of.

“I think vanilla is best when actually it is its own flavor, and that it is not just there for the sake of being there, because we think that we have to add it to baked goods.”

So that's life great to have a couple different kinds. So if you have an extract, you have maybe some paste or you have some whole beans because they're used really differently. That thing said I just love it so much that I do add a lot, I do add it a lot, do a lot of what I make. But it's not an afterthought, and that might be one of the reasons why it can be sometimes criticized.

Like, oh, you just, if you're adding it, thoughtlessly to everything and you're not really tasting it, I can see why people would think that it's not the amazing flavor that it is.

The point of this being as vanilla can really shine on its own, and I encourage people if they want to, if they love to bake.

Like, weirdly at the grocery store for some reason, one bean cost $20, and then you can get the pack of 25 beans for 50, you know, if you ordered them online or something, you know, from a special tea site. So I would say play route that and really use it in a way that you're going to experience the full flavor and not just as a thing that you keep a little jar of it and add it to. You know, a case that you're making because it's so special on it's own. So I, I agree with Claire, I think that, you know, certainly if you have a chocolate cake that you love and that, you know, you like our taste.

“I'm not telling you you have to stop taking putting vanilla in it, you know, it's not going to do harm, but.”

If you have something that's really a really strong flavor, you can probably leave the vanilla out and maybe not miss it. Yeah, yeah, so use it in a place, you know, if you have to choose where it's really going to be. Yeah, where it's really going to shine. That makes sense. Well, that's the end of our question. So now we get to go into our favorite segment. Right. Every episode we like to check out Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full threaded opinions are in her head. She's already given a few of this episode, but let's check in to see what her official just opinion is about vanilla.

Well, this is sort of a, I mean, I'm taking a different spin. Because, you know, people often act. I think there is, you know, there's a lot of talk about quiet luxury, right? Like I think about that a lot is I'm getting older, like. Fewer better things, which I think is a good, you know, it's a good guideline. Like we don't need more stuff. We just. So one of the things that I really like to do any time I'm like house, you know, we're heading into like, yeah, some retrieval season, you know, when you're hosted and you want to bring something and you're like, what do I do?

I bring wine. Something I should be doing, that's just so good. Yeah, yeah, maybe I'll do like a sideline manner. It's like when I run out of opinion, then I'll move to manners, which I have a lot of opinions about actually just etiquette. Oh, there we go. All right, season four.

It's going to be a spin off show. I like to bring our 16 ounce bottles of vanilla.

“So that's what I mean, yeah, that's that one, which is a very generous amount of vanilla.”

And it's the kind of thing that even if somebody is a casual baker, because as I was saying, like, it never, you know, it never goes bad.

So if they're an avid baker, they're going to be stoked. Yeah, if they're an occasional baker, they'll use it for like, they'll be thinking about two for the next 10 years. Yeah. And it's the kind of thing like getting it in that big bottle, like you're not going to do that for yourself. Because it's a little sporgy, I think that's like an $80 item.

You know, but like cheaper than like one night in that crummy hotel. You know, like they're watching the towels, they're like preparing the meals. Like it feels like a really thoughtful, you know, and generous gift sort of a luxury. Yeah, and quite luxury. Yeah, I think that's a great gift. And I do buy this for myself, of course, you know, full disclosure.

I have the King Arthur discounted, but it is cheaper ounce for ounce. Of course, you do have that, you know, have the money on hand to buy it. It's fun. Yeah, it's fun to you. It's fun to pour vanilla from this big bottle.

I've never explored, we have a size bigger than this.

Do we? Yes, we have like a, it's like a two liter or something. Wow. Yeah, I'll go in the next. It's, it's just fun. And it lasts a really, really a long time.

Yeah. And so if you're measuring vanilla with your heart, as we're talking before. Not as long as you could see that. Maybe break up the teaspoons. So maybe my just opinion is one, like never show up empty handed.

I don't care what you'd, like, you know, do not. It doesn't, it doesn't, you know, doesn't matter what you bring,

“but you should bring something, but it doesn't matter.”

And you should bring something that is thoughtful. And a large bottle of vanilla extract is going to surprise and delay. Yeah. Anyone you give it to, I think. Well, this is a really nice kind sort of tender, just opinion.

So I like to give a spin on it to make it a little more, a little more punchy. I think you're just opinion is screw bottles of wine as a host gift. Bring a bottle of vanilla. You hate wine, right?

Now I'm putting words in about. Tell me, Jessica. What are you picking this week?

I thought it was, I mean, we don't always line up our banks with the theme,

you know. But this week, I, you know, I did because I've been thinking an awful lot about vanilla. And I recently came into a cash of vanilla bean speaking of gifts. So somebody gave me like a bundle of 20 vanilla beans, which is a really nice gift. And I am going to make our simple stovetop vanilla pudding.

I love putting. So much. And this is a really nice recipe. It uses a warm or cold.

Very cold. Okay. And I don't mind the skin. If it gets a skin.

“But this is a recipe that's really simple.”

It comes together all on the stovetop and is made with sweetened condensed milk. It gives it like a very silky, nice texture. So, and it's like that is the place to use like your vanilla bean paste to really show off. Like you'll not only be able to see it, but like you really will be able to taste it there. Yeah.

Is that a search on how recipe? It is a search on how recipe. Can't lose. No, can't lose.

I also am going with vanilla this week, because I'll always talk about vanilla bean.

And for me, I don't, you know, a lot of cupcakes. I love cupcakes. I don't have a occasion for cupcakes, really. I don't have kids, you know. Yeah, I mean, you don't need to have cupcakes in my apartment.

But ultra vanilla cupcakes with easy vanilla frosting. Again, another recipe where vanilla is really going to shine. Yeah. I would definitely use the little paste here or vanilla beans. In the cake and in the frosting.

Yeah. And you know, we have a speaking of the kids that you don't have. There is a one-ball vanilla cupcake recipe in that sweetened salty kids cookbook. Yeah.

Which is easy enough for a kid to make.

And we have a bunch of mix and match frosting too. So there's like, you can, you know, confettiify the cupcakes or the frosting. And actually, that's a place where you can also mess around with your extracts. You know, like you can make a vanilla base and then flavor the frosting. So that's a fun recipe if you're looking for another, another cupcake Avenue.

You know what my mom does? It's very surprising to me. I go to her house. I love your mom, by the way. Open the years.

I mean, yes. Is she listening? I hope she listen. She's, or maybe she doesn't. I don't.

She's not a fan of the pie, yeah. I think she gets to it eventually. Yeah, okay. Well, shout out to moms. And I hope when her freezer and

they're frozen cupcakes in there. Like, iced cupcakes. I know. I know you could freeze them. Where do they come from?

Did she like, like, if she gets them at a bakery and shows it? And if she's rapsed in his room, if the frozen freezer,

I've never seen that before.

“I don't know if it's the best thing you can do.”

But you know what? I definitely thought one of you didn't. It doesn't sound bad. We know frosting freezes well. We know cake freezes well.

Yeah. Your mom's just, like, getting a shortcut too. Yeah. I think it's a good idea. Anyway, you know, I don't know.

We got so sweet here. I know. It's weird. We want to do it again. I probably will get back to the beach.

All right, Sarah. Thank you for tuning in and joining us. You're on things, Bakers now.

“Remember to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts,”

YouTube, Amazon, Spotify, or wherever you listen. And leave us a review while you're there, or share this episode with a friend. And in the meantime, don't forget. Follow the recipe.

Things Bakers know it was hosted and executive produced by me, David, to market. And me, Jessica Badalana. Rossi Anastopulo is our senior producer. Chad Shenaya is our producer and Marcus Bakala is our engineer.

The original music by Megan and Marcus Bakala. Thanks again to Claire Saffords for appearing on today's episode. You can find more about Claire and her work at dessertperson.com. Things Bakers know is a king Arthur Baking Company Podcast. [BELL RINGING]