I am unashamed.
Welcome back to Unashamed. I woke up days to the sad news that one of our icons are childhood he rose
“one of your icons. You know, he never was here. Yeah. I didn't. I won my tone as maybe.”
But now, you know, I found my movies were a little cheesy, but he was just a bad man. Of course, but then my Chuck Norris passed away in Hawaii, which I guess made sense. He was impaired as on earth. Yeah, I don't take that the wrong way. It wasn't, but I disapprove. I just wasn't.
You weren't as into him as I was. Now, and then later, I never figured out the fascination with
you know, all the little sayings. So many, I looked, I was looking up and reading them this morning's out. They were hilarious. All these, you know, Chuck Norris. They're the best. Yeah, they're the best. I just did one, because I was near his where he's from in Texas, where he has a ranch. And so I did a the Boogie Man checks his closet every night for Chuck Norris. So it's one of my
“favorite. But yeah, well, it's the one you read. You read, you were reading them what I was over.”
What I said, God created the earth, and on the seventh day rested, and then Chuck Norris took over.
But it does show you Josh never told about this morning that he's kind of the joke is his
invincibility, because I've told the story before on the podcast. I got to meet him 11 years ago, and the only reason I know exactly when it was is it was his 75th birthday. And we happened to be at the same event, and a mutual friend invited me to his little surprise party. It was great because it was just a handful of people there. So I really got to visit with him. And Jason, I don't know if I told you this, but he hit the time he had twin 15 year old sons. So I guess now they'd be 26. And so they were
young, because he had married a little bit later, his wife had now. But he said they love the show,
“and you in particular were their favorite. So I'm warm enough. Yeah. So the Chuck Norris twins,”
whoever they are, said they love them some days. But he was fantastic. But you know, he was 75. And he looked like he was 45. Yeah. I mean, I just showed you being in shape. I mean,
I have said this line many times on this podcast because feel always used to say people always laugh.
I say it in every speech. And my dad would use this illustration. It's worth repeating that when people do not want to think seriously about their impending death, they will rationalize in their mind by doing something good, which is eating right and working out, which are great things. Nothing wrong with that. But don't let that be a delusion in that you're not going to die. And my dad would say, oh, you tell me, I eat right and work out.
And he would say, you will die healthy. But it may be a bus. It may be a staircase. It will be something. Something's happening. Even the seemingly invincible Chuck Norris. But he was one of those that you're childhood. It's two of them. I got to meet him. He was one. And then we got to meet Haxel, Jim Duggen, because he was on the show. Oh, yeah, that was fun. That was fun. Well, I love Lee Cousin. I don't even have to say her name. But she has a nickname
that we affectionately call her. Lee Loose. He can't look her up. Yeah. But the original Lee Loose, because my wife became a Lee Loose. Oh, she's a little doesn't grandma name. But she sent me a funny text yesterday. She's like, you're not going to believe this. I just bought a bottle of eternal water. She didn't have to clarify. I knew what that meant. I was like, people are still up to this idea of selling the idea of eternity and supernatural things through their products
when look, it may be the greatest water ever I've never tried it. But it's not going to keep you from dying. No. And you know what else? It's not going to be better than Chuck Norris's water. See force. Yeah. Chuck Norris. It says on the bottle, it's like a roundhouse kicked to the face. So, that's a piece of the outlaw Josie Wales. Maybe this bill was so many lines of even at the end when it gets to the end. My apologies for bringing this baby again.
That little day, whoever wrote that movie ended the movie with the words of death and the words
Of life, which are a direct quote from the book of Genesis.
words of death, it shall be life. But the young book who followed Josie around and he took you
me in, you remember when he got shot and he looked up and he was like, it was incredible acting. Yeah. He's like,
I ain't going to lie to you. I'm scared to die, Josie. But that that was just brutal honesty that I find lacking in movies today that deep down, you know, you're not scared to die to you get shot. That's it. All of a sudden, you're looking around saying, I'm scared to die, Josie. So a lot of people, yeah, and especially just think if you're not, you're not spiritually prepared. That would be really scary. Because you're really putting that all on the line. If you're not ready.
I mean, yeah, we're ready. But none of us would look forward to it. But you know, when we started, we started doing all the stuff with Phil with the podcast and we had in the woods with Phil before that, which was behind the paywall. So a lot of, a lot of you did get to see it, which by the way, if you do want to hear some of those or watch some of those on episodes, we're bringing them back out in the form of a podcast called Ad Home with Phil. You can look it up on YouTube or on the,
“wherever you listen to podcasts. But you're ain't up there, is that great idea?”
That's the first time I'm here and here and everybody's great idea.
It's also a new comment out at some point. It's, it's a lot of, it's a compilation of his stuff in the new devotional. But it's a new book. I know your dad's been working on it. I don't know any details about it, but just be looking for it when they tell it once, yeah, once that, I don't know either. But once that comes out, we'll get everybody together on that too. But what, um, we had this one scene, when I had this idea, like we'll be launched that, that was a
as a Phil, let's go out, wait that turns dark. And you just build a fire. And then I'm going to look, we'll, we'll film you building this bonfire. And the whole thing was about like starting a fire for the kingdom. And like we're, we're, I mean, this thing is catching, you had catching flame here, and I had a whole thing. I read out for him. He was, he was fired up about it. So he goes out there. And Jill was with me. I think those probably 68, 69. And so I got this fire going right out
there on y'all's land, Jason, and it's just a bonfire. I mean, and so he gets so high, because there's a middle of the summer. He takes his shirt off, and Jill was like stunned, because she, because he was ripped. I mean, Jill was ripped up at 68 years old. I mean, he was just chiseled. And the Uncle
Tommy was the same way. And he never worked out. He worked outside. Yeah, that's a,
Jill was like, good, nine, Phil. You're like, like a brick house. Like what happened to you? Well, that's, I, I, I used that to get back to, you know, Chuck Norson. Look, I'm, I'm sorry, died, but it's, this is, the hand were dealt, isn't it? But I, when the Chuck Norse craze with all the
“sands was going on, I guess it still is. I verbally said, well, you should meet my dad,”
because I'm like, he invented this kind of mindset this far. It's very much, very some kid out of the way, and watch this. I mean, you talk about one tough, gritty human being that was my dad. And so everybody who knew him well, I mean, it's shocking how strong the man was. Well, it hit me this year, or, you know, last year, I actually went to our 60, but when I, I was got to think and mom and dad, or mine in Lisa's age, when this whole kind of the phenomenon era started, it was the Benelli
show, it was on the outdoor channel that thin led to the big, to the duck show and all that. But they were our age, they were around the early 60s. They were running all of the country just like we're doing flights here and they're speaking all over the place, writing books, doing commercials,
“in between, no days off, just getting after it. And it hit me, I was like, that's what we're doing,”
this exact same thing. But you can do that until one day you look up and you can't. Well, run. And then all of a sudden, it was just, it was over and it just seemed like it went by so fast that last decade. And so it made me realize that the clock is ticking. So, but it doesn't want to slow me down. I want to do just the opposite. I'm speeding up. So the first time that I got a term life insurance policy was right before my first child was born
out, and you talked about someone gifted you your first one. That was, yeah, it was a guy we love and they call a big boy. And he was an insurance salesman. And he gifted that to me going into
The seminary to become a preacher.
for over 20 years now. And now I got five kids. So of course, we've added a few more policies along
“the way. But, you know, I think it's the responsible thing to do to make sure that your family's”
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on the shame policies issued by Western Southern Life Assurance Company not available in certain states, prices are subject to underwriting and health questions. Well, I was more referring to if you think I'm in bellishing about my dad because everybody says that all yellow my dad's had he walked, you know, barefoot up hill, boat boys and the stuff. Just keep in mind that my dad did not use any kind of dead mean or what is that stuff called? You know, numbing agent,
gas, none of that. And he and I'll give you three examples just off the top of my head from a route canal. No dead knee. Why to wait? Nothing is numbed. Yeah. Had a rod removed from his eyeball. No dead knee,
no put you under. No, none of that. And then the first man may be on the planet to ever have
whatever that procedure is where they go up in there to remove kidney stones or break them up into the south of the border. What makes a male, a male, the most profound member? He did that to the doctor's surprise without any, because they put people under to do that. My dad was watching the video. So, just saying, I'm not trying to embellish that the man was just on another level. He had a very high pain to on it. I'll tell you two more that I personally witnessed one was
they cut a cyst out of his back. No, no, topical. You know, only, you know, he fell a topical there at the very least, because he literally cutting and pulling that thing out. He did that with, and I was there for that one. And then I saw a granny one day pull a horn. I'd say it was probably two inches long, two to three inches long. And it's this long that had gone in his eye right in the corner. And she could let me know. I know, she could see the spec. She started pulling
that thing out. And I was just standing there. I was the, I guess I was a teenager. And it was right there in that front bathroom in that greenhouse dead where a washroom door were. And she pulls that thing out. And my eyes got so big, because it was so, it was so, it just kept coming. You know,
“dad is like, man, that feels better. That's what he's saying. Man, the only time I can remember”
that I saw him a little fearful. I can only remember one time. Me and him were going to run the nets, the commercial fishing nets at night, because that was something we did every once in a while. And when we got in the boat, I thought, we had a light, but I saw something move. And he went Congo in the boat and he jumped out of the boat, which I jumped out to. But then he, he, he looked back in it and he said, he jumped out of the boat. So then we jumped back in.
Obviously, you're with the safety back to say. And I just found it shocking that he jumped out of the
boat. I just, it is pretty, it is pretty amazing that he was never snakebed. And as much time as he
spent around poisonous snakes, because that whole beaver damn breaking up stuff. There was a snake on that. And one, the most famous blind we have is called the Lake Blind. And it became a city. It was a three-sided blind. That would actually hold at one time. Now, we only have one side left, but it storm came through. And this assembled the three sides. So we turned it into three blinds. But back in the day, this is the one where we had bunk beds and a kitchen and it's original
form. A stove. A full stove. It was a house. It was a house. And you can live there. And my
Dad would always say, hey, war breaks out.
But during the, this time of year, the problem is that it's everybody else's house for the other
“nine months. Yeah. This time of the year, which now are spraying, well, all these critters out in the”
wall. Yeah. They're not going to turn it down. Because the human's leave. Yeah. And you have a fortress out in the middle of one of the most rugged swamps in the world. These purple tail walls. There's a, there's a D bugging, D snaking, cleaning up process that happens before the next duck season. Every year we would go do it. And I hated it. They actually filmed it. Other shows would come down. Oh, you know, must do it. Alligator was in the blind one time. Really the exterminator tried it.
Oh, a board. A board that said on the mission. That is true. We were the one set that they tried to
film a show. And they said, nope, two, two, many, the wall. That's one of the got. The brother was allergic to all things. I had to do many exterminator members. Yeah, crazy. I guess we can
“talk about it now. But so, well, I was wanting to tell this one story, though. One year, we were,”
we're doing, we had to whole crew. We completely, I mean, we killed snakes. We, we, we, we got rid of the wasp. We cleaned it up. And all that was filled with moments of terror for everybody. You know, and my dad was sitting on the corner of the blind in his spot. And he turned to everybody. We were, we were all just like taking a deep breath. It was job well done. Mission accomplished. Phil said, well, we got it all done boys. Good job. And when I looked up and I saw a clump in a
buttonweller that was used as bruh. It was a growing buttonweller. I would say a foot from his right ear. And that was a clump. And I looked at it. And it was a cotton mouth called up one foot from his ear. And I said, Phil, don't take this the wrong way. But there's a bull Congo right by your right ear. And he went, yeah. Yeah. I said, no, I'm serious. He said, yeah. I was like, I don't make any sudden moves. And he said, you serious. He said, he's called up. He's like, caught a cotton mouth.
He started arguing with me. Cotton mouth don't climb trees, Jason. I was like, there's one in that bush. And it's not a water snake. It is a cotton mouth. And he moved back and looked, he said, well, you're right. He reached around for his weapon and just incinerated the bush and said, snake. He said, it wasn't scared of that for whatever reason. Because the snake wasn't in an aggressive position. But still. And then take a stand down to get it. Then everybody relies,
it's where you go in and out of the blunt. We have gone under this snake all day. He just said, yeah, I thought, woo. If it had just dropped down on top of whatever that had been there,
“that's why I'm saying it's amazing. Never happen. What's ironic, exact is your mom did get bitten by”
poison. She did. She was a little girl's reaction when she did was there's nothing wrong with you. Well, she was because the way she just talked about it's pain tolerance was. So, yeah, the way she tells the story is that the grass was about Neha because you know, Phil learned not the mother yard for my guess as parents, our grandparents. And they were playing football in the yard, Phil the boys and all our uncles. And my mom was kind of like the, I think her role was just,
she was kind of like the servant worker. He doesn't mean she kind of kept that role, you know,
she'd playing everybody's house and everything. And she was always the, you need something
done. She's the one you call. So, it feels like right there and get some water. She said, I, I don't want to run through that grass because I don't want to get bit by snake, but feels like you're not going to get bit by snake. Go, go get a, a jug of water. So, she runs over there, Phil's so that water. She's running back as she's scared the whole time. And she, she, she feels something hit her toe, like, like a intense pain. And she knew she had been bit by snake.
I said, then, when she gets back to Phil, she's like, I just got bit by snake. And then, so let me see it. And so, he lifted her toe. And there was only one, but there was a prick mark on it. And he said, not a snake. And he, she said he took the stick and drew the circle in the sand. And he put two, like, dots. He said, snake, two, two things. You took one hole, not a snake.
So, she, she said, I got bit by, I know I got bit by snake.
unfolds is she ends up back in the house with a green and Paul. And then she starts to get sick. And then her legs starts to swell up. And there's red veins, like, red streaks going up her leg.
“And green, he's like, I think you need to take her to the hospital. And, you know, of course,”
like, granddad was kind of, you know, how he was. And she'll be alright. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So my mom's like dying. Like, she literally starts to vomit and tits fever.
I mean, this is the whole thing. And in the whole time, Paul, and then Granny finally, like,
you know, she had her way to find that she's like, she got so animated that Paul's alright. I guess I'll take her. So he takes her to the hospital. And sure enough, she had gotten bit by a water boxing. Yeah. And so it was running. She was running. So one thing went in her. But that was the infamous mom got bit by cotton mouth and feel and Paul told her she'd be our right story. So we got out of Christmas. I got out of New Year's got to all of that after all the holiday
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challenge for where we're going to talk about today. In first shot three in verse eight, because don't you find it fascinating that the evil one took the form of a serpent destroyed in the garden. Right now, whether that's literal or used as an analogy, I'm open for suggestion. Yeah, because it was whatever was as a little different than what we would know because
“remember one of the curses was you'll be slithering the rest of the way. So I don't know if they could”
walk. I don't know what was going on there. But yeah, I don't know that it was different. But people do not like snakes by nature. People like to talk about all that. But the point of it is that there are spiritual forces of evil. Yeah. And how that happened, there are a ton of views on you know, where where did the evil and how did that happen? Yeah. You know, there's this interesting taken is equal 28 that it's a prophecy, but it's intertwined with real people. Yeah, the king of somewhere.
And all of a sudden it's like, well, that sounds like it's kind of giving you some hints into the evil one's origin, like a fallen angel. So, but I just want to point out that this profound verse that we read in 1 John 3 where it says verse 8 says he who does what is sinful is of the devil. Because the devil has been sinning from the beginning, which he goes back to the garden moment, Genesis 3. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.
I mean, which would be sinning, right? That means something. I mean, Jesus came to defeat. I mean, he did, he came for a lot of reasons in the flesh. Yeah, because that's kind of what
first John is zero and in own like the anti-Christ is one that does it acknowledge Jesus Christ has
Come in the flesh, fourth, three, four, two, and three of first John.
I tend to think as followers of Jesus, we zero in on one thing and make that the thing. But part of
“what God did through Jesus and given us the Holy Spirit, which is all over the place in what”
were reading in chapter 3 and verse 4. He came to defeat and destroyed the devil's work.
And where we are in our context says in 4, 7 to 21, he says basically,
"Him coming here to do that work for us is the ultimate illustration of love." Yes. I mean, it's the biggest illustration. I want to remind you, and this was my day, literally one minute before we started, where I wanted to go, because there's something interesting that happens. There's something interesting that happens from a biblical perspective, and that
“the Hebrew word for a torment is all over the place in the Old Testament. Yeah. And when you get to”
the New Testament, not so much. And so you're like, "Well, what happened? How come it's not talked
about much?" And the verse I want to point out. And this is not the first time it's mentioned
in 1st John. But we really didn't talk about it the first time it was mentioned. The first time it was mentioned was in 1st John 2 in verse 2, speaking of Jesus, being our advocate or crudely, you know, our lawyer in heaven, but it's that Greek word paracledus which we went through, which is used as reference by John to be the Holy Spirit four times in John 14 and then in John 16.
“But here he uses it as Jesus on our defense, being alongside of us, speaking in our defense. And then”
he says in verse 2, he is the attoning sacrifice for our sins. So that phrase, attoning sacrifice, that in Greek, there's a word that is being translated at home. Well, it's only used twice, this specific word in the New Testament here and 1st John 4, 10. But to finish the verse it says, he's the attoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world. So there's one and the other. You're like, this is the only two times it's mentioned,
this exact phrase, this is it. Now there's a cousin of this mentioned elsewhere, and I'm
going to bring that up. But first John 4, in verse 10, this is love, not that we love God,
but that he loved us and sent his son as an attoning sacrifice for our sins. So you see, it was translated the same phrase. So you say, why bring this up? Now, if you're new to the faith, you probably don't realize that the idea of atonement is muchly debated on what it means. I would say borderline controversial, is that? I'll explain very controversial, and there's been, well, one thing to happen recently, there's a book that was written that came out,
they got a lot of traction about, you know, one camp wants to kind of, well, it's kind of nuanced, but one camp wants to deny the atonement as part of salvation, the other. And then another group maybe wants to overemphasize atonement, and there's kind of different variations in between, and what does the atonement mean? Well, let's focus on the second one. Let's focus on the second. There's different, now how did you just put that? There are different variations in stress,
what that means. A lot of, there's been a phrase that came up, and I'm gonna, I did a little research on it, but it's actually not in the Bible, but it's deducted from biblical verses, and it's a phrase that's called PSA, and it's not public service announcement. This is kind of funny. But it's called penal substitution atonement. So, and where I'm going with this is you said, well, how did we define this? Because let me just give you the different words that are used for atonement.
This is one.
1st John II. I can spell it for you. It's H-I-L-A-S-M-O-S. So what is that? The last one?
So if I do an A-I, gives you an overview, it says, "A toning sacrifice used in 1st John II, and 14." Exclusively. To describe Jesus as the, and here's another word, "propitation for sins," as explained, and then he puts the resource here, or he, I'm calling A-I-I. Then you have another word for "propitation," which is, "This word is U-H-I-L-A-S-T-E-R-I-O-N." Now according to this, it's used twice. It's used in Romans 325. So I think I should read that, and it's more about the mercy
seat, or the place that this "propitation," which would find, and you want to give a definition
on that, is that what people say?
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Now I have a little letter in my Bible when it says, or is the one who would turn aside God's wrath taking away sin, but this was the 1984 N.A.V. So there's another letter in the current N.A.V. that says, "See Leviticus 16, 15 and 16." I see Leviticus 16, 15 and 16. I guess I need to read that. So we'll do the technical side of this, knowing talk about it practically. Leviticus 16, 15 says. So now we're going Old Testament. We're going to the law of the day
of Atonement is the title in Leviticus 16. It says, "He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull's blood. He shall sprinkled on the Atonement cover and in front of it." In this way, He will make Atonement for the most holy place because of the uncleaness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins had been. So this is the seat on top of the Ark,
“is what it is, and it looks like two angels, two cherubs, and that's what's called the mercy”
seat. So I think that's helpful because the other verse that that word is used, and look, this is the only two on this one. So you have two for this propitiation, which we haven't defined yet. He brews now. Yeah, I think that I think propitiation would be that there's an infraction, there's a payment that must be satisfied. Maybe it's dead. Yeah, that constant point of sin, or even the wrath that you know is in the song, "The wrath of God is satisfied."
That's where the big debates that right now is, does God pour out his wrath on the sun?
That's the big questions.
the one point I have issue with, and look, you don't agree with me. Fine, read the verses and
come up with what you will. But I just want to get the technical stuff. So I want to read this
“Hebrew's nine on the other word for the about the place, because I believe that's the presence of”
God. It was in Leviticus. He's coming into the Tabernacle. They're doing these sacrifices. Now Jesus is making the presence of God in heaven itself, which is the Hebrew's nine five. And the description before you read it is, the Hebrew writer is describing the holy place, the most holy place, what's in there, and how each of these things mattered to God. Right. So that's the same. So Hebrew's nine five, above the art, where the cherubim of the glory,
overshadowing the atomic cover, or the mercy seat. Now then there's three different times in Hebrews that it talks about Jesus entered heaven itself on our behalf. Right. So you're getting the
“idea of atomic to make the presence of God available for Him. Right. So you have those two words,”
and then you have another word. This is when the atomic is involved. And it's translated reconciliation in your Bible. So this is Romans five and eleven. I'll read it real quick. So it's different words. So when you my point for doing all this is when you read a comment in the Bible, we just have English speaking translations, which have the same word, but I'm telling you, these are different words. So it will help you understand the arguments and
what this means and how to figure this out. If you put the right word with the right translation, right, in the text. So for this word reconciliation and it's spelled KAT, KAT, Talaj, KAT, L-L-A-G. So Romans five and eleven says, not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Now, and you remember the context, while we were sinners, God, you know, verse eight,
God demonstrates his own love for us while we were yet sinners Christ up for us. Verse nine, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through Him. So it's the it's the same talk about God's wrath, the blood, the sacrifice of yeah, but it's a different word. This is reconciliation, that this is why the original word at home in the English language, go to a rabbit hole on it, literally meant at one
mint. So it's at one, two parties that are estranged or broken are alienated. They have been
“united at one mint. So that's why at home, that's where we get the English word. Right, you say.”
Yeah. So the other place, it's only used four times, but there are versions of reconciliation all over
the place. So that's used a lot. This and Corinthians five is... Oh, second and five, I was going
I was going to read it because that's where we need to hang out a little bit to understand this. So so Corinthians five, we have this judgment seat of Christ that shows up in verse 10. And then we have verse 14, I think, is key because it says, for Christ love compels us because keep in mind before I give you my thoughts. These two words for this propitiation or re or satisfying God's wrath are only used in first shot. And one of them is used in a chapter where
the word love is used 27 times. 15 versions. I do not think that's an accident. Yeah, because jumping ahead to where the arguments form, some people tend to stress the appeasement of God's wrath. And some people stress God's love and this judgment is an act of love because of his righteousness is justice. I kind of lean on that side because this word is brought up in the chapter where it says God is love. So let me read where it says reconciliation. So in verse... Well, let me
read verse 14 of chapter five. So Corinthians the whole thing. For Christ love compels us because we are
convinced that one died for all. And therefore all died, which is similar to first John 2, which says
He's the atoning sacrifice not only not only for those who are following but ...
But then it says, if anyone is in Christ for 17, it's a new creation, the old is gone, all this is from God who reconciled. So there's another word used for atonement, this cat word. And then he gave us the ministry of reconciliation. So we actually have the ministry of atonement bringing people back together with God through declaring Jesus. Which is exactly why I believe God of me, John said, that not only for our sins but the sins of the whole world,
Christ sacrificed for toement is big enough to always be available for more, which is the point
Paul's making here. But some of the argument on the other side is that it's no, we got what we need. Yeah. And I might know it's bigger than that. You got to think bigger. It's more. More is the word. Exactly. So now I'm just gonna declare where I'm at. And I realize some people will not agree with me. I'm pretty sure that most of those people are not listening to this podcast. Because I've had multiple discussions with people and I'm like, okay, you're you're highlighting the wrath of God. I'm more
“highlighting love. But I believe like in penal substitution, I believe there's a payment that had to be”
made. I believe that Jesus substituted himself for us. I haven't thanked the reason he chose
the way to do it. Because he's it was certainly his choice. He said that you don't take my life. I give it was to show how bad it is. Oh, great. Well, because when you get into the, I think the biggest issue is that some camps would say that the father poured out his hatred and wrath on the sun. Right. Now I don't agree with that. So I'm just, I was fix to say that. Number one, I don't agree that Jesus was punished. That by God. Here's, here's why. And I'll just
give you my overtake and as fast as I can. So when I think fire and punishment, I think Genesis, where's the story of Sodom and Gamar? Genesis. Oh, 1924 and 25. And look, Jude on his take on Sodom and Gamar, he uses the word punished. Yeah. They were punished as an example.
Right. I'll give you another verse. Second Thessalonians, one, eight, talking about fire and
punishment. It says that when Jesus comes back, he will punish those who do not know God. He'll come in blazing fire and who don't know the truth. Well, I'm looking at this at Jesus.
“Well, he knows God. And nowhere in it, in this book, does it say he punished Jesus? That's why I”
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So in Romans 8, this is where this comes from. But just read it carefully. Verse 1,
"Therefore, there's now no condemnation for those who are encouraged Jesus, b...
Jesus, the law of the Spirit of Christ sent me free from the law of sin or death. For what the law
was powerless to do, and that it was weakened by the sinful nature." Here we go. God did by sending his own son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And we're not saying he didn't offer his son. And look, we're not saying based on John 10 that Jesus didn't willingly give up his life, which we did whole podcast on the definition of love is Jesus giving himself. So here we go. He condemned sin in sinful man in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully
“met in us. So, and that's why also said he also defeated the spiritual forces of evil”
that had a hand in that. That's why at first John 10. Yeah, it's, well that's the, there's the condemnation for those who are encouraged Jesus for the law, the Spirit of life has set you free in Jesus Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death for what? For God has done with the law, weakened by the flesh. So that's a big line there. Why was the law weakened by the flesh? Is because the flesh is sinful. Like we are, we're in sinful flesh. And so Christ, so we could
notice a Christ, but Christ never sin. But he does enter into flesh. And so if you think about
the, even as we're even first to second John, think about how John defines the anti-Christ. The anti-Christ is anyone who says that Christ did not come in the flesh. Well, why is that? Because that's the whole point of Christ. God comes in flesh, lives a perfect life in human flesh. And that flesh is killed. And then that flesh is vindicated through the resurrection. And so it is, is a lot about victory. You know, I tend to hold the position, though, that there
“is a payment. All right, sin has to be paid for. Where I think that people push back against the”
heart, what I would say more of the heart of you, that the son himself, like the God didn't pour his wrath out on the sin, in the Son he poured his wrath out on the son. I think you have issued there with the disruption of the tri-unature of God. You know, the God really turned his face away. You know, if I mean, let's write that up for example. You know, whenever he says my God,
my God, why has thou forsaken me? This is actually a key point. Let me get my Bible.
Because I don't want to say it. Hold that thought. Well, I would say that while you're looking that up, I mean, Jesus is still suffering today in us. I mean, there's ton of verses that meant when you told us, so I always said, why are you persecuting me? Well, we have the spirit of him in us. My point, my whole point is if he was being punished, not punishing sin, then why in the world with the whole four gospels, would he be telling us to give our lives up? Why would the apostles
look all die? I'm martyrs dead. If this was somehow us being punished. But you got it. If you
“have to understand where they get that for them. They get that. I think people get there, I understand”
how you would get there because when Christ is on the cross, he does say, my God, my God, why have thou forsaken me? Right? So do you have this picture on the cross of what seems to be the father turning his face away from the sun? We used to sing the song at church. The father turns his face away. But here's why I have an issue with that as mainly because I think that what Jesus is doing there when he says, my God, my God, why have thou forsaken me? I think he's quoting
Psalm 22. No, you don't get it. He's not. Yeah, don't think it. He's quoting it. So go read Psalm 22. May read Psalm 22. You tell me just by reading of the Psalm here, if this is a picture of the father turning his face away. Is this a picture of the father hiding his face from the sun? That's the phrase we want to hang onto. Is the father, according to Psalm 22, hiding his face from the sun? My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from me, saving me from the words
of my groaning? Oh, my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer and by night, I, but I do not find rest. Get you are holy and thrown on the praises of Israel. If you are, and you are father's trusted and you delivered them to you, they cried out and you rescued them. In you, they trusted and were not put to shame. And then he goes on and you see this whole thing about the the dogs and circle me. He says the company of the evil doers and circle me. They pierce my hands.
Was that sound like?
I can count all my bones. They stare and glowed over me. They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots of words. That sound like exactly what happened to Jesus, but you all do not be far off. And he keeps on asking the Lord to save him. God saved me, save me, save me, and then skip down to the last of these two verses here. This is in verse 24. For he is not despised or have or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted in us in this. And he
has not hidden his face from him, but has heard him when he cried. So I'm reading the Psalmist here,
and the Psalmist clearly says that as the Christ cries out, don't forsake me, the answer is I'm not.
The answer is I'm not. The father does not hide his face from him when he and the father has heard
“the Son when he cried to him. And so I think when you read Psalm 22, that verse 24, to me,”
it really kind of destroys that view that somehow God looked on the Son, and when He was on the cross, was just like, I can't look anymore to any turn away and reject the Son. I don't know how that's possible. Even autobiologically in the very nature. I agree how that's possible. I agree. And I agree that there is a payment made. He did pay for the sins. It does make you sin utterly sinful. To me, your attitude is not going to change as far as abhoring sin and what
it does to people in the consequences. And he did make the payment. I just have the motivating factor as love when you read Saint Corinthians five where it's just for a Christ love compelled us.
“Now you say, what was the context of that? Now I want you to notice this. I think Saint”
Corinthians five is so incredibly difficult to get around because he starts off with this judgment saying about all a parent for the judgment seat of Christ. Because what this is hard for me to characterize their argument because I don't want to get it wrong. But what this making, making a piece in God's judgment, the gospel instead of God's judgment being a piece through the offering of His Son in love, which is where I'm at, which sounds similar, but I'm just saying I've talked
to these people and they're like, oh no, I don't know. The stress is God's appeasement. The love is minimized. Now that'll agree with it, but it's just minimized. So in all the sermons you're like, hey, it's not good news. And that's my biggest problem with it. And it is detached from the resurrection. So in light of that, can I say one thing? Because we're talking about out of time. And I do, we would pick and pick this up because I've made a pretty bold statement there. I think
could get a lot of people said. But on the flip side, there is a flip side of this that we all
set to deal with it. There's another side of this argument that basically says, God's not really
mad at all at you for your sin. Well, he just, you're a sinner in your own mind. You're not actually a God is just like, but I think that's equally damaging because you can think that's just almost downright silly. That's why I brought up Sodom and Amar. But now you all punishment, that was punishment. But what I was going to make a point, I didn't realize we were almost at a time. But I want to say this. Well, what did, with God tell the humans in the garden, if you sin, what will happen?
You'll die. You'll die. As a punishment, I would say yes. Well, when you look at Jesus,
why, why stress all this after he died, his body didn't see decay. Why did the first
apostle stress that in there? So remember, you remember, I used to know it's like, well, he didn't spirit experience that punishment for sin. He didn't have any sin. And it takes me back to the
“story of Abraham and Isaac. You remember that, where he was willing to sacrifice and God would have”
been justified in doing that. You know, he would have been sin for Abraham was sinful. What did he do that? Why is that the shadow? Are you willing to do it? I just don't think you can make that up as for showing that God did this willingly out of love. So I do want to read this secret in his five out because I brought it up. So he gives the judgment same verse to him. Then he gives to 14. And he
Says, if we're out of our mind, that's 13.
because we are convinced that one died for all. He equated his love with him dying on a cross
“for everybody, which was going to be point number two, is that I don't agree that Jesus was”
punished. He took the punishment for our sin, the punishment and consequences of sin that we did.
He took that, you know, by my died. And number two, for some reason that they didn't conclude that
he didn't buy for everybody. And in both cases, where which there's only four verses that's
“going to talk about it, he makes a point to say, and he didn't just die for you. He died for”
everybody. And here he equates to the Christ's love. And he said, and therefore, all died.
So, which I take from that, that flesh is not bad. The choice to disobey God is was bad. I hope this helps. And look, there's the, oh, don't let me give one disclaimer because I didn't get to say, there's so much nuance around this. Don't take anything we said in this and turn it into a soundbike. Because this is a much bigger discussion. Well, there's a lot here. Yeah, context is
“king. All right. Yeah, I think the subtle differences, that's why this is so frustrating. Like”
overall, like I said, I agree with the concepts, but it's what you stress. And, you know, look, fire is a punisher, but it's also a refiner. Yeah. So, every time you read the word fire, it's not necessarily a bad thing, even though suffering is involved. Yeah, this is a good point. All right. Well, at a time, we'll pick it up next time. Don't understand. Thanks for listening to the unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review
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