Ep 1303 | What Happened at Jase & Missy’s House Last Weekend Reveals a Growing Cultural Shift

- So welcome back to Unashamed. We're a little bit gated this morning

“'cause we had a few days off and we're kind of tough.”

- What it is? - I think that's what it is. We had a little time off, Maddie came in. She had a different mindset of how I was going to work today so we've been running around.

And we have some guests on our set today, some special guests and friends of mine, Jonathan Gloria. - And new to the family? - new to the family. - They're literally that dripping wet this morning

because they just put on the Lord and baptism, which was awesome this morning.

- That's the first, right?

- And they got married as I did a ceremony for me yesterday at the BFR, which was really cool. - So y'all had a wedding. - We had a way, it was there in Jersey Joe. He still does dad's an unashamed class.

And so people that come through, we kind of route people there. And he shares a gospel and talks a little bit about what we're doing here in West Monroe. - I think this is the first wedding

that's spawned in a Bible class. - Yeah, I think so. While I tell the group there, it's so funny

“'cause they were from all over the country,”

I mean from everywhere, 'cause it's spring break so they were coming through. And so I was like, y'all didn't know y'all was gonna get to be at a wedding today. Did you?

Everybody's looking at me kind of funny. And so we just literally stood up in the middle class about halfway through it.

And they had had a civil service in California

to be legally married, but they wanted one in a church with surrounded by some Christians and they wanted to be baptized as well. So we had planned to do the baptism after service yesterday, but a little junior, they got a couple of little.

So if you hear anybody today queues squealing in the background, that's just regular, no, that's just life and future. But a little Jonathan, he's a diabetic and but he got sick.

And so they were a little worried about him. So I said, look, y'all go deal with him and we'll just do the baptism tomorrow. So, but welcome, we're glad you guys are here. They're podcast listeners and Jonathan's trying to catch up.

He's a little behind. But you know, it's Zach, one of the things we've been doing about the Hillsdale thing is it's offering an opportunity for people to actually come and visit the satellite.

My friends are today. What about, what about how do they do that? - Yeah, you can sign up for free. We're actually doing a giveaway, which is super cool. We're taking the ancient Christianity course.

And you can sign up for free. Take the course with us at unshamedforhills.com and what we're gonna do is we're gonna invite one listener and they guessed to come down to listen in on a live recording of unshamed and hang out.

Well, this we're gonna pay for travel and lodging for you and a guess up to $1,000 each. All you gotta do is take the ancient Christianity course with us, finish all the quizzes and then send us your certificate

at watch_unishamed.com. That's watch_unishamed.com. You upload that there and then you'll be internet to win the drawing and we'll pick a winner in June. And yeah, then we'll have a good time.

So it's been a great course, too, by the way. So I'm learning, I must be learning a bunch and one of my favorite course you've taken with us. - Yeah, I'm into Christianity's been great 'cause it deals with obviously what we talk about

in this podcast but then it kinda moves out into the political setting and then moves beyond

into the first in the early centuries of kinda.

- What does that mean? - Well, it just means that the history of it all, like these early Christians, once we get past the first century where it's just where we hang out,

then a lot of things happen in terms of persecution, breaking out against the church, sort of the fight against the Roman Empire, all this stuff that we've been talking about that revelation looks to it's really neat

'cause you kinda get to see how it unfolded that first two or three hundred years, which has been really good. - Then they just found that was an archiological... Archiological, what can I say that today?

Archiological. - Archiological, is that right? Is that a word? - You can't say it either. - Archiological.

- Archiological. - Archiological. - That's just called it archiological. (laughs) - It's just called it that.

- They just found something that's like the oldest engraved Jesus as the Son of God. It was like, hmmm, wanna say 280, so I saw that somewhere. And they were like, oh, you know, 'cause all the people are like,

this proves, and I was like, still happens by faith, but don't be shocked. - It's weird to me that people are shocked. Oh, maybe he really did visit the planet.

“What cave in a way, you know, you read the Gospels?”

- Did you go over, when Sadie had the shroud of touring God, did you go over there? - Yeah. - That was pretty interesting. I wish now I've been able to see that.

She did, there's a guy, oh, Jeremiah Johnson. Is this his name? Did you know that? - I remember, Jeremiah Johnson. - Yeah, he's not to be confused with the cave.

- No, because he looked as far away from our vision of Jeremiah Johnson. So when I met him, of course, I said, you look so different than he did in the movie, and he laughed, and I said, if you ever heard

that one, he said, all the time.

- What? - I said, if you ever been to a cave, I was hoping somebody would ask that. (laughing) - But he didn't catch it.

- He didn't catch it. - To your point, Jason, you may well, what you might be talking about is a mosaic that's at the museum of the Bible.

I actually got to see this, and it's pretty incredible.

“I think it was discovered 10 or 15 years ago,”

but they had the mosaic at the museum and the Bible was on the floor. They've reconstructed there. I don't know how they did it. They brought the whole thing in.

It's absolutely incredible. I don't know if you guys have been there or not, but I went, I was not going about, maybe six months ago, and it was, Zach, I recorded two podcasts from there.

- Oh, did you? - Yeah, I did. - I'm fixing to go there at a date to be determined, 'cause I'm actually, I have a donation to it. - Really?

- Well, I don't wanna, oh, yeah. - Well, that's funny, 'cause Philis and Tony are wanting to donate one of Tony's original paintings of dad to it. So I've tried to connect them to the right people. - Well, if I told you what this is,

I'm gonna wait until it's properly. - I'll tell you, who's the green family that the own Hobby Lobby have really taken this is one of their projects we're actually gonna have. - If you're in DC, you definitely gotta go see it.

- Oh, you gotta go. - We're gonna have David Green on this podcast next month, by the way, I told you guys that. He's gonna come in and talk about it many times. - But why would we ever be in DC?

- Well, people go there for different reasons. - Is it? - Now, the Trump's made it safe again. Make DC safe again, people are going. So, what Missy said, when she was there, she said she'd say it.

- But I'll tell you, this Hillsdale course has been, for me, it's been encouraging.

I always enjoy a fine and extremely encouraging

and edifying when I read anything or learn anything about our faith and how it really is, a historical faith that's tied to real historical events. And it's one of the reasons that says Christianity apart from all of the religions,

the whole entire thing is rooted in and connected with real history. And so, when you're learning about the history of this, to me, it's just like, it's such a, this isn't like a story that's make believe,

it's not like Zeus and Apollo, and all the Greek mythologies. I mean, this is like real history.

“And so, I think when you begin to understand Christianity”

in that way, then it takes on a different life because it's not something that we're like, you know, there was a Marx that said that religion is the opiate of the masses. And the idea was basically, well, this is just something

you hold on to because it comforts you. It gives you a reason to live. It's like your own little subjective thing that makes you feel better about the fact that you're dying. And so, it's an opiate.

It's just kind of numbs you from the, and that's how he saw religion. But what Christianity or its different is, it's not an opiate. Like this whole thing is like anchored in this is reality.

And so, you can actually go back and look at the claims of the Christian truth claims. And if they don't actually match up with these historical events and the whole thing is a farce,

the problem is that you can't,

there's not a problem, but the good is is you cannot, this prove it. This is anchored in the history of the world. And so, to me, that's always like super encouraging to think about Christ, entered, got entered into human history

at a particular place on the planet, at a particular time in history that can be documented on a calendar. And that is just profound to me. - No, it's good.

- Well, I know we just had eager Sunday. But one thing I think along your line of thinking is read this somewhere. It's like every year, every year, during Passover, the Romans would send these legions of soldiers

because all these Jews were gathered up. And there, you know, they were sending out the message here from Rome, don't get any ideas here. 'Cause you know, we're large groups of people. And you can read that through history.

“And that's why I think when Jesus came in,”

ride, known the donkey, you know, you can imagine, here's the Roman soldiers going around, every year in Passover, keeping the peace, don't get any ideas of overthrowing this government. 'Cause it all goes back to Pharaoh and all that.

And so here we are, you can't have any more oppression that was being dealt up by Rome. (upbeat music) So Zach, I've noticed the older we get, the metabolism slows down a little bit.

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(upbeat music) Don't you know that was such a sight where they're looking at this guy who's on a donkey. He's got a bunch of teenage fishermen. They had to laugh.

They had to be like, oh, yeah, I don't think they're a threat. And ultimately, nobody has any weapons. Well, right. - Yeah, I was in.

- But my point is about what Zack said about the history. Do you realize that that little group and they're waving their little... - Palm branches. - Palm branches in victory.

Over this guy riding a donkey. Do you realize that you fast forward, you know, a couple hundred years. And that little band. What happened from that little band,

ultimately, defeated Rome.

“And love, that through the actual expression”

of the love that this guy embodied. I mean, to me, I just find it more fascinating when you really think of the historical that going on as a real element in history. And then ultimately, from God's perspective

or history's perspective, you look back your life. - Wow, that happened. - Well, and then even into right talks about that in this section in First John, about that I did about overcoming the world, you know.

I mean, the idea is that included the authorities, countries, kingdoms. I mean, this idea about overcoming it's over all that. And you're right, it's just the long play of the kingdom of God.

But Zack is a good point, because Chase took it back to the first century and what they saw there. But there's still this underestimation even after all these centuries

because now you have nuclear powers. And you know, all these armed forces, and it's like, that's who has the real power on the planet. The United States is the greatest nation because of our military and these discussions go on.

And we realize that the kingdom of God is greater than all of it. But I love it. She said about the Zack about the timing of it too. 'Cause I did communion yesterday at our church

we meet here. And I don't get a chance to do that very often, but it was kind of a surprise visit for me to be there. So they asked me, and I was like, yeah, I'd love to. And so when I got up there,

you know, for communities different preaching 'cause you only got like three or four minutes. And so I said, if I were the creator of the cosmos, the God of all God is the Lord of all lords. You know, the beginning and the end,

the creator of the heavens and the earth. And I decided to come visit the earth that I created, how would I come? And I just waited and let it pause and sit there for a minute. And then I said, however I wanted to.

And yet the way he chose it in the time he did an aroman rule to prove who he was and the worst model of execution, maybe in the history of mankind. And we figured out a lot of bad ways to kill people

for different reasons. He chose that to come here and to be who he was and to give his life they didn't take it. So it's like, if you think about that moment in communion, it really is a huge, huge thing for the Lord that we serve.

So we ready to get into-- Or did we leave off? We haven't met in our time. It's been a minute. The last time we recorded, we had Missy Owen.

We talked about a little bit of everything, but we--

Because she's got moisture in.

Well, yeah, her, she had her mentor weekend. Mentor Weekend, which is, she takes a group of women in a night. What she talked about that when she unleashed her own last about what she did in an age bracket.

“I think these were like 21 to 30, maybe.”

And the last night of it, which is, I guess, would be a Saturday night. Maybe I shouldn't share this, because it's like a surprise. But anyway, I think I will. You can always ask.

She's already said she didn't listen, 'cause she can't take it. But she-- 'cause it's all about the older women teaching the younger women and Titus. That's a-- Yeah, yeah.

But so she invites them to our home, and she cooks them a meal, and they go outside. They set around. And she shares basically. Jesus says the Staples Center for what true love is.

Well, what happens every time she does these things? Well, some of these young women, they realize at some point in here,

I've never given my life to Jesus.

It becomes real. Jesus becomes real throughout this weekend. So they had five baptisms. And of course, I was listening from the bedring, but I could hear the splash and just eruption.

And then all the sniffles, you know? Yeah. So, but it was so weird, it happened so fast, when I walked out, met all of 'em. They were all crying, but like tears of joy now.

And I thought, in this something that my floors are so wet, 'cause all the wet people come around, and then they're hugging the people who were dry. But then their tears are hitting the floor, and I was just--

I just kind of had a moment. I was looking at our floor. It was all these drops, and I thought, I can't tell the water from the tears.

I mean, it was really powerful.

That's great. And it was just a big pile of wet clothes, and they're all just, you know, doing women things, hugging and crying, but, you know, what a sight, you know, how's life, man, and this?

Well, you know, I got interesting perspective on a day, 'cause one of 'em's husband was in the class that I was in yesterday where I did the wedding for Jonathan and Gloria. And his wife was one of the five I got baptized.

And so I said, so, how did she feel about that? I mean, she's excited about it, and he said, life changing.

“That's what he told me, he's a life changing.”

And he said, he had been a believer for a while, but she'd kind of lagged in that, and then she, you know, really was excited about this weekend, and he said, and she got it. She, you know, all came together for it.

But I thought about that even for a couple of days, 'cause he's think about it. The idea of older women, I think older women training younger women, which is this tie to us too, idea that Paul was relating to him.

It didn't just affect the individual life, 'cause then that impacts a marriage, that impacts a mom, you know, and how she raised her kids. That then impacts a legacy that she becomes a grandmother

and a great grandmother and becomes a person of faith that can build legacies of Christian family. So, I mean, these moments are huge. They're not just for us in the moment, somehow escaping the fires of hell,

this is building something far greater about living, and about living eternally. And so, these are important moves.

“I think a couple of things that stood out to me,”

are most of these girls, which strangely are in families where they've taken on kids that are not theirs, that they didn't get birth to. Yeah. But if this is not, I was talking about that,

she's like, in this strange that God orchestrated this, 'cause she was giving me all the details. Well, one of them had like six kids that they took on. And one of them had four, what's a small group of women? What are they odd?

And this is like, of course, and we have one that we're, and they've had another one that who's a girl now, but still, it's kind of a sign of our culture. There's kids being born with no one who's standing up to give them proper.

Well, I think it's made a lot of encouragement to hear that, because we talk about this a lot on here in the pro-life movement. If you want babies to survive, the abortion pill, now, which is the main way that they're killed.

If you wanted to survive that, then they have to have places to go once they're born. 'Cause obviously, the person who has conceived is child can't take care of them, or won't. And so they have to go someplace.

And so if it's not for the people of God and others to step into the role, who's gonna do it, right?

that they wouldn't be doing that,

but the second thing that stood out was,

'cause most of these people have been to church and it's like, why do you miss Jesus and all that? But that seemed to be the common theme. It's like their encrotation, salvation, experiences had nothing or very little to do with Jesus,

which was their own, wasn't like Missy was trying to, she wasn't going down that road, right? They're just like, but whatever I did back then, it wasn't for the fact of who Jesus is, I get it now.

I heard East dropped on a couple of the conversations that went in, the passion coming out of these women about understanding who Jesus is was evident. And because Missy was like, look, why don't you just study this, you know,

thank you, you don't have to make a rash to sit there like, now we're all in, no, no, no, no, no. So, this is really exciting, but that did, it did cause me pause 'cause I thought, whether these church is teaching out here,

whether these people front there all over the country. (upbeat music)

“- Well, I think that it's a lot of what we're talking”

on this podcast and that you can correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus being the bellweather and having the relationship with Him has to be the starting point. If the starting point for your Christian wall is to not do things, and there's,

you can go to the list of sins and say, well, you know, these are bad, which we all recognize that, but my whole Christian walk is to not do these things, but that's where a lot of people approach Christian, it's like a bunch of rules, and I'm doing good

when I'm doing that less and doing better when I'm, or doing worse when I do that more, or the other side where it's just, you know, I mean, it's a people, I know I need to remove my Bible more and I need to pray more.

I hear people have a list of things they go through. If I just do that more, I'll get this right. But without Jesus at the core of the relationship and a full surrender submission to Him,

those things will never make sense

for what they're supposed to be. Now, never get in their proper place,

“and I think that's where so many people miss it,”

is like we talk about from John Five all the time. You have all of the things around it, what I want to do more and what I shouldn't do or what I should do less of, instead of, once I know Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in me,

that's a whole different, but those things tend to just fall in the place where they shouldn't, you know, because at the point, at our church, we're going through the book of Hebrews right now. And we literally just have this conversation

with one of the other pastors at our church on Sunday, 'cause He's gonna be teaching in a few weeks on Hebrews 6. And when you think about Hebrews 6, I mean, the first thing that you pop in your mind if you've read it is the discussion

about losing your salvation,

and once they've always saved all that stuff,

'cause there's some pretty dark language in there, right? Yeah. And so what do you mean by dark language? What dark like, I mean, there's that passage. When I came to Christ,

I say, came back to Christ after I had kind of lived for the devil for a few years, and drifted from what I grew up knowing to be true about the faith and all that, I read that verse that it's impossible for those

who have once been enlightened, who have tasted in the Holy Spirit, who shared in the gifts of God,

“can't remember exactly, but it's impossible.”

It's supposed to have tasted the heavenly gift and who have shared in the Holy Spirit. You've tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the coming age. If, yeah, if they fall away to be brought back

to repentance, 'cause to their loss, they're Christifying the Son of God, I'll over it, yeah. I'll say what you're saying. Well, I didn't know what you meant by darkly. It's like confusing, yes, scary.

Yeah. So you're like, man, have I like, they're going on that route. And so anyways, we were talking about like how he was going to preach the text and one of the things that he said was, you know, so funny, like, we've been reading,

thinking this is about like a warning. And it is a warning. There's a book of warnings, but he said, if you ever noticed that it's actually a positive thing, if you read the very next verse, I got to pull it up here,

the very next verse basically says, for the land that has drunk the rain that often balls on it, and produces a crop to those who for who's sake and is cultivated receives a blessing from God. But if it bears storms and thistles is worthless

and near to being cursed and in the end it's being burned. I mean, even in a passage like that, the bigger picture is not necessarily the warning, the bigger picture is what you're missing out on. And it's that garden language,

is that Genesis 128 language to be fruitful multiply,

cultivate the garden.

“And I think that's what we, for whatever reason,”

I know there's a lot of reasons, I'm sure, the way that the gospel has been presented and, you know, the church in 2000 and up and up into this point, they say, my lifetime, it's only been about what getting saved from my sin

and don't do all that bad stuff. But there was no real picture from me growing up of this idea of the good life to be introduced and invited into this garden of abundant production for my benefit.

And this, for the Hebrew writer, says that the rain falls on the land and it produces a crop that's useful to those who's sake, for those for those for who's sake, it is cultivated. So the garden is actually cultivated for our sake.

The God's, in charge of this whole thing, he said, I want you to guys to go cultivate now. Not for him, he doesn't need our praise. God doesn't need us to worship him. He's like, man, I really need a garden.

I really need a garden, so let me create these humans so they can make me a garden. God doesn't need our garden. He doesn't need our fruit. He doesn't need whatever we're producing.

He gives us this for our sake. And what that does is when you start to understand the gospel in this way, then it puts God and his very nature

“who he is, we start to say, well, what is that again?”

This isn't a God who's trying to hold out on us. This isn't a God who is created as for his own narcissistic ego. This is a God who has our best interest at heart. And he has a life that he wants to share with us. That's a different motivation.

And I think that's kind of what you're talking about out of what we're saved to and not just what we're saved from.

I want to read this first to get it back to where we are in our study

because it's so aligned with what you just said. This is first John for nine. This is how God showed his love among us. He sent his one and only son to one and only begotten into the world. That was here with us.

That we might live through him and I read that in prep for our study today. And I thought, just let that sit a minute. That we might live through him. So, and I looked up that word through in the Greek. And it's just a advanced word.

But the most often used, that word most often used in the New Testament, Space of the Book of Matthew, is God speaking through the prophets. That's where that word was used the most. And I thought, you think about this. So the prophets were the very words of God to establish the coming of the Messiah.

“That's how it is for us living through Christ.”

I mean, you tell about that this goes bad, and that's why he said in the next verse, which this is where we left out, James, you asked where this is love. Not that we love God, but that he loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice. I mean, we went on the little rabbit hole. Oh, we went.

I never finished that. I know. So you mentioned about the twice used here and the other stuff in the rabbit hole podcast. But that's the setup for it, because that's that same idea as the advocate. Yeah, we talked about back from two one, but when we're living through Christ,

that takes away this idea of the fears that you mentioned earlier, that maybe we're not doing enough or maybe we've got it. We're looking at ourselves, "Wait a minute, wait a minute." We're living Christ is there for us to live through him. So that's what the, when the fruit comes in our life, it's not even our fruits.

Is the fruit of the Holy Spirit is the fruit of the advocate.

So I mean, that's a powerful thought when you think about it.

That we don't have to worry about it. That's not why, so we're unburdened by the idea of somehow doing ourselves. Jesus took care of that. All on their thoughts while later in verse 18, he says, "There's no fear and love, but perfect love drives out fear." Exactly, because fear has to do with punishment, right?

Which I drew a line in the sand on this idea about Jesus being punished or God being angry at Jesus. And I kind of introduced that in a podcast, but I didn't finish it, because I wanted to get to do it around on me 31. I'd love to do that off the top of my head if I can remember. But because I think we're the confusion, you say, "Well, why is that a big deal?"

This big deal, because when you factor in Jesus saying in his prayer in John 17, he says, "This is eternal life to know the, basically, the Father and the one who he sent, which was himself."

"I won't them to share in the love that me and you, the Father and the Son, experience before the creation of the world."

Because if you start off with God, angry before anything started, that changes the whole narrative of the Bible and it will change your life. That's right. So I wanted to read this, do it around me 31 to finish that. I'm sure that was five podcasts here, but for you, faithful members, you'll remember this. But you just ram it all, members, we're going to show you one where the confusion happened.

“About this idea of a tome, then leading to what I think is just flat out, let me think of a strong word.”

Heresy, that somehow God was punishing Jesus or angry at Jesus, and I'm going to show you how the confusion happened.

So I think it all comes from one of the questions that Jesus asked, members asked over three other questions. One question that's very difficult kind of like what Zach said about Hebrews six is when Jesus, right before he dies, cries out, yes, and question. But he did it to the Father. He said, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Because that becomes a foundational question that, where do you get this idea that somehow the wrath was poured on Jesus? Now look, we're not saying that he didn't take her place. We're not saying that if this didn't happen, we wouldn't have forgiveness of saying that.

“We're not saying this shouldn't make us think or take our sin very seriously as in saying guilt, conviction, what it however you want to describe it.”

My sin helped put him there. Exactly. No doubt, you contribute. You actively contribute to this happening. But some people read what I'm fixed to read in Deuteronomy 31, and they're putting the word forsaken, which was a quote from Psalm 22, "We've gone over that attempt, but many times." But if you, so Jesus, one was fulfilling scripture by saying that. Because it is a strange thing for him to say, "When you take everything else," he said. He's like, "Oh, take care of my mom." And he forgave

the people who were crucifying him. He stops what he's doing and saves a thing. You don't all that. So why? It seems like, why is he doing this? But when you read Psalm 22, you're like, "Oh, because it's almost like in Psalm 22, it leads to kind of a cry for help of rescue." Which happened? Which happened? He was not abandoning to the grave, you know, Peter would preach in Acts. So no, okay. Yeah, you say, "Well, because what does forsaken mean?" It comes down to what that word means.

So if you look up in Psalm 22, one, do a little Hebrew lexicon work. And they'll tell you. It means exiled, uh, turn your face from, allow, you know, separation. So God allows the Father, allows this. And remember, darkness came over the, over the land. But don't, don't combine that with him being angry, because I'm going to give you just the smoking gun on what I'm trying to say here in Deuteronomy 31. You ready? Ready? Uh, this is going to be fantastic, but I'm going to,

where does he start talking about forsake? Let's look at verse 6, uh, 31. Be strong, courageous, do not be afraid or terrified. So he's talking Joshua to succeed Moses. This is the setting where

“Moses is basically passing the tourist Joshua to lead the people. Thank you. That's what I was looking for.”

He says, "Because of them, for the Lord your God, goes with you." Now watch this. He will never leave

you nor forsake you. Well, we have that word forsake. Yeah. There's the Hebrew word. He's not going to, so then watch what happens. So Moses, some in Joshua, said to him, and the presence of Israel, be strong, courageous, for you must go with his people into the land that the Lord swore to our fathers to give them. Because you think, what is, well, how is this compare? Why am I going here?

rescue them. So it's kind of the same concept with that word about forsaken. Right? So then, at some point in this chapter 31, it says in verse 8, the Lord Himself goes before you and

will be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake. There it is again. Do not be afraid.

So then Moses reads the law and then, where does the forsaking? Yeah, you're going to have to help me. I'm doing this off top of my head. He gets in here. Let's see it down to verse 17. Yeah, and then anger comes up. Where's that at? 17. All right, so let's read 17. On that day, I will, oh, here we go. Oh, no, how we got to read the previous verse. And the Lord said to Moses, you are going to rest with your father, fathers, and these people will seem prostitute themselves to foreign gods

“of the land they are in. Well, we know that's a no-no. What was the first command?”

Yes, well, and what happened? You, you started believing in another God's. They will forsake me. Now, here's this, you see this, the reason I'm going here is because I'm defining what forsaken means Psalm 20, 22, and it's all over the place in here. Well, so who did the forsaking here? The people, because why? They served other gods, and they broke the covenant. And they broke the covenant I made with them. And so now, listen to this very carefully, verse 17. On that day, on that day,

I will become angry with them. Look, and forsake them. Now, here's the question. There's a difference in being angry and forsaking. Why was he angry? Because they started bound down to other

“gods, and they didn't keep the covenant. And as a result, there was a lot of sins going on. Oh, yeah.”

Well, here's my point. People read this, and they're like, "Well, see, when God forsook Jesus," when He was angry at Him, because they're based it on this. Well, there's a difference in Jesus. They've got one little flaw there. Oh, it's a big flaw. There's a big difference between Jesus and where forsaken is most commonly used, which is about God and the relationship with Israel. That's where it's most commonly used. I've already looked it up. When

anger came out, it was because they were the people, broke the covenant, serving other gods, and a lot of sinful behavior. Well, here's Jesus. Guess what three things He didn't do. He didn't break the covenant. No. In fact, He predicted that He would die and be bearing raised over and over again, and guess what He did. They stuck to it out of love. He didn't bow down to other gods. In fact, you remember the exact words when Satan said, "If you bow down to me, we can rule this earth together."

And He said, "I will worship the Lord, my God, only." Amen. Thank Jesus. And look, and there was no sin,

right? He never sin. So why do you have God being angry at Him? You say,

"Why are you so passionate about this?" Because you're missing the greatest love act in the history of the world. That is the only reason He did it. And the reason He's mad at these people is still in love, but it's because they're doing something that is contrary to His nature. It makes Him mad. So what you're saying, and I'm just connecting the dots here, is if that line of reason is correct,

“which I will say, I believe it is. Then when Jesus fulfills this prophecy and the script,”

there was there from David in Psalm 22, He's saying on the part of all humanity in this moment. God, the forsakenness now is put on me. Exactly. Because now I'm taking, I did all the things that people would do. It's enough. It's enough. Look, look, and He's angry at us. It's fine. I deserve it. I love it. But when you, when you, for some reason, funnel it toward Jesus, when now you're changing the nature of God. Right.

So when you read Ephesians 1, 4, He predestined us, you know, and He's talking about the Israel nation and the Gentiles of being included, but then He has that key little phrase and love.

That this started from a love objective, because we're in first John 4 and first John 5,

the things that apply, we agree on. I just picked up that one little point, because somebody

somewhere, read bitter, I'm 31, and God, God, angry at the sun. And I'm like, nope, I think they're just using the language, because you kids hard to describe it. That's why I probably wouldn't call it heresy, because I think you push down on the language. And I think they're not, I mean, I don't know, it gets complicated. It gets very hard. It does get complicated, and I didn't want to make that the main point, but I do think it's heretical, because I think if you start off with an

angry God, then it leads to other things as far as him picking and choosing and not loving everybody, and which I just don't agree with it. What somebody who would hold the position, because there's, there are different levels of this. There's one position that is that the father poured his wrath out on the sun. Then there's a position that he poured his wrath out on sin in the sun. Then there's the position that tries to do away with God's wrath all together. We should definitely

“stay away from, but I think that when Jesus says my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

You know, he says that. I mean, he is referencing Psalm 22, and you read the whole Psalm 22, the end of it clearly says that the father has not turned his face away from him. I'm almost verbatim. He did not turn. He did not hide his face. So you have to read the whole Psalm in its context, and so what the sun may be, he's quoting that Psalm. It feels like the father's of man in him. It feels like the father's turned his face away, but he has heard the sun when he cried.

He could read the whole Psalm. He did not turn his face away, and the argument from those on the side that would be against this idea that God poured his wrath on the sun, and he hated the sun. What they would say, well, that's impossible because that would be a rupture in the very nature of

who God is. The God can't be separated. God was eternally pleased with the sun. He was never at any

point. This pleased with the sun. There was no rupture inside the Trinity. Well, and then what I just said, yeah, but if you put it, but I think even like Calvin, he admitted that. He said that

“there was no rupture in the Trinity by this. And I think that's what I'm saying when you get into”

the argument with some of these people, like what though in that saying, they wouldn't really read the finding wrath. And I mean, then you kind of get to what we're always saying the same thing. Now, they probably would say, no, but I do think that you have to look at this and say that Christ voluntarily, he said, nobody takes my life. I give it. So whatever happened on the cross, where the place I land is that it was an act of, it was a triune act. It wasn't the father doing something

to the sun. It was the father's son and Holy Spirit acting together to accomplish this. So at no point in any of it, was there any division? Because it was, I mean, Jesus voluntarily says, I, I give my own life. Now, he takes my life. I give it freely. And so what, if any, I would just say the rubric that we should run the atonement through, is does this disrupt the Trinity in any way?

“And if your understanding of atonement does, then I think you need to get rid of that understanding”

of atonement. I'm not telling you what your view is wrong or right. I don't know. So it gets too

nuanced and it gets to get in all these discussions. I just know that God's never divided.

And so whatever happened on the cross was an act of divine quality and decodemy that the God in his triune nature accomplishes this and, and it's finished. And, you know, I think that's, that's truthful. I think it's biblical and I think it gives us a high, high, high view of not only the father, but it gives us a very high view of the sun because he was participating. That's why it's not cosmic child abuse because the sun's participating voluntarily in this. So there's your

theological version of what I said I think. But not like that. No, I agree. But I like the way you tie it in the Deuteronomy passage because it, and that comes obviously before Psalms and when David writes what he writes, because it is representative. When Jesus came here, he became a human being. And when he did so, when he's on that cross, he's representing humanity as well as representing the sun of God. He's the sun of man and the sun of God. And so I love the idea that what I didn't

realize until you went through your die tribe, your days, was that I now, I believe, he's saying an infulfilment of all the moments up until now. When all the people have turned their backs,

just kept going back to the same pattern. He says, all that is now taking care about me. And that's

“the beauty of it, which I think that's what ties it into first John so well. And he says,”

all this is the picture of ultimate love that I would do that for you. First that I would come,

become a human being that I was sent my son, the one and only son, the second that that one and only son would give his life for all of us to be represented. And now we live how through him, our representative, our advocate. So it makes perfect sense to me. Well, and it does align with everything he said else on the cross, by the way. It fits in line then with a love speech, not a hate speech. That was that was my point. And because I think if love is the root of it,

you look at all the facets of what you accomplish. It's it's more than just him specialized, specializing in the forgiveness of sins. There's more that went on there. He's also defeating the contributing supernatural powers. When you go back to the garden, yes, there were two sinful acts by a couple individually, but there was also an evil force there that was contributing

to that. We just ran first John 310. Jesus came to destroy the power and the work of the devil.

“Well, how did he do that? Well, he starts talking about love. You're like, why is he talking about love?”

And he's talking about a torment, but he's also talking about what we become in this world, which that goes in to say, Corinthians 5, where it says, God made him who had no sin to be sent for us, so that we may embody the righteousness or faithfulness of God. So that's where I was going. There's multiple, there's multiple facets that happen on the cross and in the resurrection. And I think if you start off with a loving God, all of those things come out. When you kind of

get focused on one little aspect, it tends to be an illustration of it from my perspective. And I mentioned this a lot when I'm sharing with the audiences. When I mentioned that my dad, our dad, is when he became angry at me when the lifestyle that I was living was against the covenant of our family. I mean, there's no doubt about I did it. I made the choices that put me in a position and it upset him. And so when he came to me and he said, we had a heart to heart and it was

like, I love you. Your mama loves you. And what you've got to do is you've got to change from this and leave that. You got to leave these friends. You got to leave this lifestyle and you got to do us right. Now in the moment, because I wasn't doing right, I took that as I was being forsaken and shunned by him. He didn't love me. Or he wouldn't have said that to me. But I was 180 degrees wrong. The only reason he had that conversation is because he did love me. Yeah. And he wanted me to do

the right thing. I was the one that made the choice. So when I leave, go out there like the loss particle and then loop 15. When I came back, guess who was right there waiting? Not with hate.

“Now we're forsaken this, not with separation, but welcome home son to the same dad. Why?”

Because he knew his love for me never stopped. It was me that made the choice to be forsaken.

And I think when you think about, this is one little thing I've really had a rest of with on this atonement argument that there is a level of wrath that is just like, I would say like rage. And I think it comes from God. And I think it's like this. I don't think it comes from love, though, if somebody hurts my family in a very horrible way, it would, I mean, it would just come out. My love for them would come out in rage. And so a lot of the decisions around, yeah.

So there is like, God is really mad at us because it's a luxury when we say that he's not. It's a luxury when we say that God's wrath is simply his passive wrath, which would be like the Romans passage where God turns you over to yourself. God's wrath is to give you over to yourself. That that is a big facet of his wrath. But there's also like real anger that you think about like when when societies like think about the real evil in the world, like the most heinous evil you

could think about. Well, how about Jeremiah 19, the bail warshipers were sacrificing kids into throwing them into fire. And archeologists have found these grave sites where there's a little jars given to bail. And it's all these little little babies. I mean, to me, that's pretty proud. I'll say this. I did a study one time because we're out of time. But I did a study one time

but it's not a sin. Anger can lead you to sin. And I did the study is over 600 times in the Bible.

Mention's anger 85% of the 600 times God is the one who's anger 85% of the times mentioned in the entire Bible. And that's just out of time. But for him, well, and let me just say this in a

“way of time. But I think Fox News has been listening to our podcast because I had about five people.”

Somebody is because they murdered us. To me, and they's like, I saw this where you said red

necks where the only unoffendable people left on the planet. I was like, where did you say this? They're like Fox News. Fox News did. Fox News did a lot of this. Fox News did a lot of this. And Fox News did. Yeah, somebody did that. But I want to give you a caveat now that you've

“made a big thing out of that because I was like, we don't care. Yeah, because everyone you said,”

yeah, when you try to offend, what is offended? Nothing. Who cares? So you can talk about us in a fitness, but I will say this as my dad once said, if you talk about our wife or our dogs, our mess with our kids, we're not going to be offended. We're just going to flip your butt. He's going to me. There you go, Fox News. Right now. Yeah, we're not offended about it. But sometimes you just need a butt. Sometimes sometimes. Sometimes there's a line. Well, you hear that. There's

“I've read an article a few years ago. I got walked in on this kid getting abused. I think he killed”

the guy. And everybody was like, yeah, nobody was like, oh, he shouldn't have done that. Everybody's like, I hope he gets off Scott for everybody. Everybody that heard that story is like, that's justifiable. That level of anger flows from love. And I think that that's a, I think the same thing as true with God. And so, you know, we're out of time here. We could

probably, we're way out of time. But I just wanted to say, you know, words will never hurt me,

sticks and stones and all that. What? I'm talking about his dogs. His kids are his tribes. I don't talk about his dogs. All right. Let's see the next time I'm on this show. Thanks for listening to the unashamed podcast. Help us out by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcast. And don't miss an episode by subscribing on YouTube. And be sure to click the little bell and choose all notifications to watch every episode.