[MUSIC PLAYING]
In Washington, DC, two blocks from the White House,
lies case street. It's a loud, busy boulevard that's known as Washington's corridor of influence. It's well-lobvious, law firms and think tanks set up shop. Among the office blocks, there's an unassuming glass
storefront with three supersized white letters in its window. C, I, C, the Catholic Information Center. The CIC is an event space bookstore and chapel, a place of respite and reflection for Washington's industrious minds.
Here's a promotional video from their YouTube account. Before coming to the CIC, I didn't know enough about my fee. The essence of leadership is understanding the new generation of leaders. You actually have to create a pipeline of leaders
who are properly formed. What better model to have in Washington? What better way to evangelize. For high-powered Catholics working in the capital, the CIC is conveniently located to attend a quick lunch
time mass. A metal plaque declares it the closest tabernacle to the White House. Over the years, a lot of heavy hitters have sat in its views. Jim Nicholson, who was the secretary for veterans of fares,
“under, I think, was under George W. Bush.”
I remember Santorum coming a few times. Meaning Rick, Santorum, the former Republican Center from Pennsylvania. The English's wife, Calista, used to come and shop there all the time.
I remember Scalia coming in and buying things a couple times. That's mute, game-grich, the former House Speaker, an Antonin Scalia, the late Supreme Court justice. That's civil loanee. Who defended President Donald Trump
during his first impeachment trial?
Who else? Oh, God, who at Billbuck? He was at the CIC all the time. Billbuck, as in the former Trump Attorney General. And the voice you're listening to is Leo Mir.
He worked at the CIC for the better part of a decade.
“I remember being impressed by it when I started there”
that all these important influential people were somehow affiliated with this place. And I felt important being somehow connected to that. And at the heart of the CIC, Opus Day. This is the 1990s.
The Center has actually been run by Opus Day priests. I think the language we used to use was the Catholic Information Center is an agency of the Archdiocese of Washington and the spiritual needs of the Catholic Information Center
have been entrusted to the priest of Opus Day. During his time at the CIC, Mir began to view all those impressive influential connections in a different place. Once I learned more about Opus Day
and saw how they operated, it was like, oh, this makes sense. If it was somebody rich and powerful and they wanted to talk to the priest or go to confession, the priest would drop whatever they were doing to do it.
But if it was just like a regular old grandma with her realsory beads that wanted
to talk to the priest and go to confession they never had time.
For many, the CIC is the embodiment of Opus Day's political power. A bricks and mortar metaphor right in the middle of the swamp. But like me, it wasn't until I'd learned more about Opus Day that I could actually make sense of the influence
the CIC is having on American political culture.
“That's what I'm gonna tell you about in this episode.”
The story of Opus Day's partnership with a new cohort of wealthy conservatives, eager to spread its hard-lying views. And how that put Opus Day on a collision course with the Vatican.
For the financial times, this is untold Opus Day. Episode four, the closest tab and ankle to the White House. Leo Mir started working full time at the CIC in spring 2005. Fresh out of college in rural Virginia,
he was excited by the hustle and bustle of DC. - I grew up in the small town in Ohio and I wanted to be a priest and I wanted to be a priest that said the old Latin Mass. And you know, you have people come in and ask some questions about the church
and about church teaching and I'd be able to quite them to a book that would answer that question for them
Or I'd talk to them about buying statues and metals
and charge keys.
- A few years into Mir's time at the CIC,
a new director arrived. A priest called Father Arne Panula. He reminded me of Johnny Carson. The way he looked, they kind of had the same bill that same kind of short gray hair.
They had a lot of the same mannerisms, a little bit of a Midwestern accent. - That warm Midwestern tone also left a strong impression on George Weigel, a Catholic theologian and author. Father Arne was one of his favorite priests.
- He was a highly intelligent, very friendly, but 110% Catholic.
“And I think people found that combination of conviction”
and accessibility, very, very attractive. It was under Father Arne's leadership that the place really went to a different level of activity and impact.
- Father Arne, who died in 2017, was an Opus Day all the time.
For several years, he'd been the head of Opus Day's entire U.S. branch. At one point in Rome, he even lived with the founder, Jose Maria Escriver. - But it would be a mistake to think of CIC as simply an expression of Opus Day.
It's a much broader, more engaged enterprise than that. Although it expresses it's an expression of Opus Day's conviction that lay people are the church and are to be evangelists in the world, especially the work world, which in Washington,
of course, means the political world. - In that's political world, Father Arne had a vision for the CIC to become more than just a bookstore and chapel. Like everyone in DC, he wanted to build a network,
one that spread Opus Day's message, that professional work can be a path to holiness.
“That's why it had made its home on Cased Street,”
among DC's lobbyists. - So you might, when people have said what this means that Opus Day is power hungry, no, it's world hungry. - That's Michael Piccolac, professor of political economy at the Catholic University of America.
He's a married member of Opus Day, or the work as it's often known. Peter did not go out to the countryside of Turkey to set up the center of the Catholic church. He went right to the seat of power, he went to Rome.
That's definitely in the spirit of the original apostles. So that's what the work does. And so K Street is where it's not a center, really. It's a service, it's like a public service at the work does.
- But while Mia was working at the CIC, he saw other little ways that Opus Day's spirit shaped the place. - Sometimes down to the smallest details. He remembered how strange he thought it was.
When Father Arnie would rep her mom to him for putting out flowers or a tray of cheese and veggies before an event. - He would say things like, "That's not in the spirit of the work.
"That's not in the spirit of Opus Day." Well, you know, that's woman's work. Like an Opus Day, like you wouldn't, we don't have men doing things like that. - In the late 2000s, Mia helped Father Arnie
launch a more expensive program of events. Talks, book signings, and networking nights at the CIC. Some of Father Arnie's biggest plans involve DC's young professionals. - Everything we did there was geared towards young professionals.
Father Arnie was like,
“"We got to get these young professionals in here," you know?”
- As they talked, it became clear to me that Father Arnie had a particular type of young professional in mind. - You would see the type of people that he considered to be quote-unquote young professionals.
- You could be 25 years old and be fully employed in a white collar job, but you weren't a young professional. Like his young professionals were people that were kind of on a track to have in the prestigious career.
They were strategically placed in powerful organizations.
Those were the young professionals. - What were they called for people? - There just wasn't a name for him. - Father Arnie wanted to create fraternity among the next generation of DC, Politico's.
But most of all, he wanted to educate them on the church's social teachings. Except, again, may have found, "Just as Father Arnie focused on a particular type "of young professional, he also focused
"on a particular type of social teaching." - The more we talked about it became very clear that the way he was defining church social teaching was abortion, same sex marriage, contraception, those kind of wedge issues.
But it wasn't Catholic social teaching, like feed the poor and shelter the homeless. It wasn't very Christ's light. There wasn't an emphasis on love the week. Let's build up the weakest members of our community
Or the people that can't offer you money or power prestige.
Those people didn't matter.
- Mayer watched as the CIC transformed under Father Arnie's tenure. He developed deep partnerships with his case treat neighbors and professionals on Capitol Hill, bringing them closer to Opus Day's vision of Catholicism.
- He saw the CIC as being like a beachhead or a bunker. We're equipping young professionals and policymakers to fight the culture war. They saw that as a spiritual fight. And they were getting the ammunition
for that spiritual fight from the Catholic Information Center. - Mayer, for his part, wasn't that involved in the spiritual fight. - He worked in the shop and did the books in the back office. But he recognized the power of Father Arnie's pitch
to the CIC's donor.
“- I remember thinking, oh, this is gonna be good marketing stuff.”
We did do like a spring and a fall fundraising campaign.
That's the kind of thing that's gonna look good on a lot or to donors. Staying, this is what we're doing here. We're a very real player in the culture war. - But after a few years, Mayer decided to leave the CIC.
He didn't like the way his faith was being reduced to part-time politics. - They became a place for conservative networking. It was almost kind of like his talking point, like his little elevator pitch on what the CIC was.
We were just a nice bookstore in a place for people to go to math, but he wanted us to pivot to being a place that equipped people to fight the culture war. This was a platform for them to get their ideas out.
- The relationship between the CIC and its donors has become increasingly important. Because it's made up a stay. A key part of a wider movement. A Catholic force within right wing politics as a whole.
“And it's starting to attract the Vatican's attention.”
Let me give you the backstory. Over the past couple of decades, countless sexual abuse scandals and coverups have left US Catholics disenchanted with church leaders. The church has been on the back foot,
losing money, parishioners, and its own voice. And that's allowed other characters to fill the void. - There are a number of these organizations to essentially feeling a vacuum created by the lack of any really substantial presence
in the culture of Catholic bishops, whose authority has been diminished. - That's Tom Roberts, the former executive editor of National Catholic Reporter, an independent publication.
It's readers tend to lean progressive. - This was about, we can about maybe six years ago, when we began to realize that big money, especially on the right sector of the Catholic world in the United States, began to just pour enormous sums
of money into certain areas of the church. - The thing about this money is that it's coming from lay people, wealthy individuals in the pews, not religious leaders.
And with it, they've taken over a lot of church-related messaging.
“They run institutes, newspapers, television.”
- Some help fund the university think tanks you heard about in the last episode. - I think we're going through kind of a sea change here in terms of who speaks for the church and they're setting the agendas,
they're the influencers, if you will. - Roberts walked me through some of these big name conservatives who have also been funding, Opus Day initiatives. - One of the most forward and public actors is a fellow named Timothy Bush.
He's an attorney and founder of something called the Bush firm, which deals in high-end real estate and also wealth planning for very rich people. And he has founded an institution called the Napa Institute, which is an organization
that gathers people, particularly from the far right of the church and American politics for seminars and day long gatherings in Napa Valley, which is on a lovely area of California. - Bush, no relation to the other famous American Bushes
by the way, has positioned his Catholic Institute in opposition to various progressive ideas, like the Black Lives Matter movement, which he described at a number event
as promoting racism, critical race theory,
and destroying the nuclear family. Tickets to the Napa Institute's conferences with wine tastings and speakers like JD Vance, cost thousands. It's an elite event. - There are other very wealthy Catholics
who are part of this mix, including Leonard Leo who is a profoundly influential actor in American politics and religion. - Leonard Leo is a big deal. He's a conservative legal activist
who for years has led the Federalist Society, a powerful network of conservative lawyers. He's widely credited for having ushered three judges onto the Supreme Court, who swung the balance on overturning Roe versus Wade.
Together, in the absence of church leadership, wealthy layerty like Leo and Bush,
Are showing American Catholics how to live their faith
in public life.
“- You have an institution that is really essentially”
leaderless without a voice in the culture,
looking for some identity and it comes Mr. Bush and others who say, "We've got this. We know what Catholicism is about." Tim Bush was talking at one of his conferences. There wasn't any irony in his voice when he said,
"We can do things that the bishops can't because we have access to a whole lot more money." And they do. They're using it to build their own systems, their own echo chambers, their own outlets.
- Leo didn't respond to multiple requests for comment and Bush declined to comment, by the way. - It's a very conservative theology. It's a very conservative view of the culture, a vision of Catholicism that isn't bothered by a lot
of the especially economic and military questions
that we're being asked in earlier eras.
- When it comes to voters in the Pews, despite today's abortion politics, Catholics actually split pretty evenly between the two political parties.
“In 2024, Trump only had a slight advantage”
among Catholic voters. So these conservatives aren't the only or even significant majority of Catholics. But right now, they're definitely the loudest and they've been facilitated by U.S. bishops.
- The Catholic bishops had reduced their influence and their big political concerns to the issue of abortion. That became the top issue on all of their political statements and that gave people like Tim Bush
and Leonard Leo essentially cover, if you will,
if we concentrate on abortion and gender issues
and opposing homosexuality, concern for the poor and immigration and all the rest of it came what they call potential issues. In other words, they just didn't talk the list
and wherever they fell well, we can keep working on them. - But the thing is, the Vatican has pushed back on this approach. The late Pope Francis actually reviewed U.S. bishops
for acting like politicians and said what he didn't like at all was the idea that the only sins that are relevant are those below the waste. But Opus Day has thrived in this partisan Catholic ecosystem.
Both Leo and Bush have given significant donations to Opus Day and CIC initiatives because for this new conservative donor class, Opus Day has been the perfect partner. Remember, Opus Day is built on the idea
of revitalizing the faith of ordinary lay Catholics. Its members are elite, hardworking, and formed by Opus Day, they end up pretty obsessed with sexual morality. From tradwives to JD Vance,
the American Conservative revival of the language of Christianity and traditional family values has been further entrenched by Opus Day. Opus Day declined to participate in this podcast
and the CIC didn't respond. So I asked George Weigel, the Conservative Theologian, who was close with Father Arne, and he gave me another perspective, which is that these issues of front and center
with an Opus Day, because from some Catholics perspective, they're simply more pressing.
“- I think Father Arne and I would both have agreed”
that the fundamental issue in the Western world today is who are we as human beings? Are we simply bundles of desires and the state's role is to facilitate this satisfaction of those desires, whatever they may be?
If long as nobody else gets hurt, or are we more than that? Are we just congealed star dust or are we more than that? - In particular, in relation to the cultural,
like what is meant to be-- - That is, that is the cultural war, which side of that argument are you on? - But what's an example of that? - Can a man become a woman?
Should men participate in women's sports? And Catholic Church has an answer to that. We're more than congealed star dust. We're better than we sometimes think we are, and living the faith can help us live out
what Abraham Lincoln called the better angels of our nature. - For Weigel, it's not that the Catholic Church has been captured by conservative donors. It's that Democrats and the left have dealt with these questions badly.
And he says that's particularly true when it comes to abortion. - There is no room for pro-life chastlas in the Democratic Party, whether we're talking about
Life issues, whether we're talking about,
virtually anything in the public realm where moral judgment is involved.
“- The Democratic Party is simply not open”
to people like me. - But I'm not completely convinced by Wigel's argument. The suggestion that Opus Day has aligned itself for these conservatives simply because they take Catholic issues more seriously.
Pope Leo and the late Pope Francis have both spoken about abortion on equal terms with other issues of life. Like war, the death penalty, gun control, foreign aid, immigration, and climate change.
In the past, spokespeople for Opus Day have told me that it doesn't have a political agenda and that it just follows the teachings of the Pope. But in reality, Opus Day seems to be firmly opposed to the liberalizing trend, these popes have set.
Because the talks and events that programs through the CIC
almost always take this narrow focus
on abortion, gender, and sexuality.
“And I think the actual reason Opus Day has gained”
so much power in the US is not just because of its deeply conservative social views, but because it's focused on cultivating and serving the elite. Nearly a third of Opus Day's US members live in DC. And that concentration is not a coincidence.
In the era of Donald Trump, father Arnie's vision has come true. The CIC has become a conservative religious hotspot and a surprising number of people in right-wing policy circles in DC are linked to Opus Day.
People like Ryan Anderson, who runs a powerful think tank, called the Ethics and Public Policy Center. Here he is, speaking at a CIC event. Modern feminism seems to be trying to force women to live, to learn, to love, to work,
as if they were males. - Or Kevin Roberts, the man behind the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025, the playbook for the second Trump administration.
“He receives weekly spiritual direction from Opus Day.”
Again, here he is, speaking at a CIC event. - Our speaker for the evening, Dr. Kevin Roberts was named the President of the Heritage Foundation in October of 2021.
- Thanks, I never get tired of being called a cowboy Catholic
because it's true. Don't worry, father Charles, I'm abiding all of DC laws here. Yes, but at home we're very well armed. - I asked to interview Roberts a year ago, but he didn't reply.
In response to a pre-publication request for comment, he said this podcast was anti-religious and anti-Catholic and suggested I report on radical Islamism instead. The CIC has also developed, even closer times, to Leonard Leo, the founder of the Federalist Society,
we mentioned earlier, who helped create a conservative super-majority on the Supreme Court. People I spoke to in Opus Day circles, told me that Leo has a bit of a celebrity status within the organization.
His children attended Opus Day Schools in DC and he's a backer of another father, Arnie initiative. A young professional's program called the Leonine Forum. Here he is, speaking at a Black Thai Gala, the CIC held in his honor in 2022,
where he made reference to criticism of Opus Day.
- Finally, there are the current day bigots,
the progressive Ku Klux Klan. They spread false and slanderous rhetoric about Catholic Apostles and institutions like the one represented here tonight. With the Federalist Society, Leo created a pipeline
of conservative legal professionals. And through its partnership with people like Leo, Opus Day has served a similar function in DC, creating a pipeline of particularly conservative Catholic political types.
When I looked up the Leonine Forum alumni, this young professional program backed by Leonard Leo, at least 50 of them worked in the Trump administration. 150 had worked for conservative causes or think tanks. Another 150 for Republican Congress people
or Republican appointed judges. It's through this networking, through the shaping of people in positions of power, that Opus Day pushes its particularly reactionary Catholicism into American political life.
Take what happened to Margaret Doran, the Princeton graduate from the last episode. Through an Opus Day member, the With the Spoon Institute, Margaret got a role at the Heritage Foundation, working under another Opus Day member
on marriage and family issues. Many of her friends, Opus Day members
Followed similar paths.
And she finds this concerning.
- What I see with this community,
“I started Princeton in the Washington DC Catholic community,”
these people all socialize with one another. They all worked together in these universities, think tanks, government positions. And they're all part of this extremely insular and controlling religious group.
There are zero boundaries. - Margaret believes that Catholic should advocate for their convictions in public life. And she supports conservative values. That's not her issue.
- They're not monks or nuns, but they are essentially living out in direct obedience to their religious superiors.
You are supposed to tell your spiritual director
absolutely everything that's going on in your life. This could be personal things, disagreements with friends, family, co-workers. It could be since you're struggling with, but it could also be decisions like,
what job should I take? Where should I go to graduate school? What projects should I be pursuing at work? These people are acting to the outside world as if they're making their own decisions
and acting freely. When really they are running every single major decision they make by somebody else who might have no role at all within the organization, because you don't actually know in these organizations
who is in charge, who is really pulling the strings. - They're not sitting around, how do we get an Opus Day member to be president of the United States? - That's Jack.
You heard from him in the last three episodes. He says that Opus Day's formation, the intimate spiritual direction it offers people, is what makes its political power so effective.
- The concern of Opus Day has always been
one-on-one apostolate, dealing with individuals,
“and that's how Opus Day influences politics”
just as Opus Day is trying to influence higher education. It's through drawing these people into an evening of recollection, drawing them into spiritual direction with a priest, drawing them into a seminar, because the goal is to provide formation to that person
which will then they would say empower from the outside, we might say unduly influence that person to exercise whatever their function is in society, according to, again, Opus Day's particular view of Catholic teaching.
That's going to have very direct consequences in how that person exercises whatever their function is in society, such as a Congress person voting on a particular piece of legislation. There's a hierarchy of values
and that Congress person's hierarchy of values may change as a result of their contact with Opus Day. - That hierarchy of values, that's the emphasis on sex and the family I talked about earlier. Together, Opus Day and other conservatives focused
on these social issues have guided the Trump administration towards its goals. Transgender people have been banned from a military. State funding has been diverted from contraception access. LGBTQ+ rights have been rolled back.
And even for members like Jack, who didn't work in a job related to politics or DC at all, Opus Day still had an influence on how he cast his vote. - I did not vote in local or presidential elections
until I left Opus Day because I did not feel capable of voting the way I really thought. I took seriously care for the environment, care for the immigrant. I thought that was just as serious as anything else.
“And I thought that's what the church's magisterium”
was teaching us through the popes. So I felt really incapable of going to the polls in the United States and voting what I thought because in Opus Day abortion was the number one political issue. - In America, writing this wider conservative movement,
Opus Day looks like it's on a path of success. But as its political power has grown within the Catholic church, its position has actually become increasingly fragile. Current and former popes have pushed back on how conservative politicians in America
have tried to wield their faith. Pope Francis has criticized some of our policies when it comes to immigration. Pope Francis wrote, essentially, the Vance did not understand that aspect of Catholic church teaching.
He said, Christian love is not--
- And over the past few years, the Holy See has been scrutinizing
how Opus Day is run as an organization.
“- At the request of the Vatican, Opus Day”
is currently revising its by-laws. - Church by-laws may sound a little dry. But what Pope Francis decreed in 2022 was actually a major restructuring of Opus Day. He ruled that its head would no longer be a bishop.
And also increased the church's oversight of the group. Removing its direct line to the papacy. - It is a change that has direct consequences on Opus Day. - Opus Day, as we know, will come to an end
if those changes are affected. - A year later, Francis made another public decree that sent shockwaves through Opus Day. Clarifying that only Opus Day's priests,
not its lay members, a beholden to the group's authority.
- What is the Vatican hoping to achieve here, Bob? - That's not exactly clear, I suppose, at this point. But typically, you divide something to conquer it. And they're clearly trying to break something that has existed within Opus Day.
- Most absorbers see this as an exercise in sort of clipping Opus Day's wings. - But these decisions have come at exactly the same time as intense public scrutiny of Opus Day's power and abuses of that power.
Both of Francis's decrees came just months after dozens of complaints were made to the church and in the media from members of Opus Day around the world claiming physical and spiritual abuse.
In Argentina, federal prosecutors opens an investigation into unpaid domestic servitude in Opus Day centers. And it seems that Francis's trajectory has been continued by Pope Leo,
who this year made a very public show of meeting Gareth Gaur, a journalist
who wrote a highly critical book about Opus Day.
- The organization is more political than it is religious. Opus Day diverges from certainly the current Pope on a number of issues. - So it seems like the conflict
between the Vatican and Opus Day might come down to something surprisingly simple. How it treats people, it's the cost of its expansion that might end up unraveling Opus Day. The cost to people like Sarah,
the woman who started this story. Two years after Sarah joined Opus Day as a neumeria assistant, the isolation and workload overwhelmed her. She actually reached out to the person who had brought her into the organization,
her childhood mental several times. She rarely had back. Sarah wasn't sure how much longer she could last. But she kept thinking about what she'd been taught. - If you don't follow your location,
you won't really be happy. So that kind of freaked me out would I ever be happy when I end up living a miserable life? - Eventually, Sarah found the strength
to speak to her director. I'm really unhappy, she told her. I'm not sure this is my vocation.
“I remember it was really, really hard for me”
to bring that up to her. I was physically shaking and I started to cry and she just encouraged me to keep praying about it and pushing through it and this is an opportunity to become closer to God.
And it was hard for me to come back and talk about it more because I felt very dismissed a month later, Sarah tried again. This time in the confessional, he was an art usual priest at the center.
He was higher up in the government of Opusay and I remember telling him that I was really unhappy and that I think this is in for me. And as soon as I just said, I'm unhappy. He caught me off and just said,
"Everyone has doubts. "You just have to keep moving forward. "You have to be cheerful." He just like abruptly caught me off and his tone of language changed when I had gone in.
He was very bubbly and nice and when I started talking about being unhappy, he became very firm. And that was the point where I think the suicidal thoughts really started to take full effect. In the end, it was Sarah's parents who intervened.
She called her mum and told her she no longer wanted to be alive
“that she felt like that was the only way out of Opusay.”
Her dad came, packed up her bags and took her home. I think back to being, you know, a 19-year-old girl who's really struggling
With her mental health, still trying to figure out
how to advocate for herself.
To me, I didn't feel like I had the freedom to just leave you been almost conditioned to have blind obedience and do what you're told and not question anything and just embrace, suffering as a way of getting closer to God.
- Sarah's now 29. When we speak, I often forget how young she still is. Because what she went through feels like a whole other life. Since then, she's steadily built a new one. She's got a dog, a job that makes her happy, real friends.
But she no longer has a relationship with God. More than anything else,
“that's why she finds it hard to forgive Opusay.”
- I feel like I'd lost my faith
through that whole process of being an Opusay and leaving. I feel like religion was weaponized against me and kind of used to keep me in an unhealthy situation for their own purposes. I would like to have a relationship with God again
and pray and go to church, but being in church, it makes me cry. And I think there's just a lot I still need to work on and work through for my time in Opusay and hopefully someday I can go back to church
right now, just not there yet. - This is the thing I find it hardest to get my head around about Opusay. It says its goal is to bring people closer to God. And I've heard lots of stories of it doing just that.
But for so many others, so many people like Sarah, Opusay did the opposite. Because in pursuit of its expansion, in pursuit of spreading its message,
“I think Opusay has developed a blind spot”
in relation to its own behavior. The way it abuses the spiritual power it has over its members and it's opaque efforts to influence society. And that's come at a cost to its members,
but also at a cost to the public because we have a right to know who's trying to influence us. And Opusay simply isn't transparent about its agenda.
At best, Opusay is looking for a path to fix the problems it sees in society.
But I think it should reflect on its own problems first
because it seems to me that a lot has got lost along the way. You've been listening to Untold Opusay.
“If you want to share a tip in relation to this podcast,”
please get in touch at [email protected]. The reporting for this series was by me Antonia Cundi and Pasa Slav. Written by me, Josh Gabbett Doyon and Pasa Slav. It was produced by Josh Gabbett Doyon and Pasa Slav.
Original music, sound design and mixing by Breen Turner. Script editing by Matt Vella. Fat checking was by Simon Greaves. Our executive producer is tofu foreheads. And the FT's head of audio is Cheryl Bromley.
Special thanks to Nigel Hansen, Madison marriage, Adam Shibba, Helen Warrell, Miles Johnson, Marine Sankt, and Paul Murphy. Thank you to the many sources who shared their stories with us for this series.
And thanks for listening. No, no, no, no, no, no. We need to find out. Visit the red captioning world in Freiburg with your email. From the top of the book, the book, all the years. Contact our interactive exhibition by the elite tour with audio guide and a classic.
And the next couple of young people, the world of red captioning. The red captioning world only has a long way to go.

