I'm Aisha Roscoe, and this is a Sunday story from up first.
I often think about my faith and how it affects the way I carry myself as a journalist. And as a journalist, who is a Christian, I have obviously been noticing the Trump administration use biblical language and imagery online on social media to justify foreign and domestic policy
decisions. And I'm always curious and interested to hear from people who have studied the Bible
and study Christianity and religion who can talk about the biblical context that these ideas are being pulled from and what that says about the faith that this administration is portraying.
“I guess that's why I was really, really interested when I heard a recent interview by Brittany Luce,”
who host NPRs, it's been a minute podcast. She sat down with two people who think a lot about the separation of church and state and also about what happens when religion is mixed with policy in America. Jason D'Rose is in PR's religion correspondent. Part of the rhetoric of conservative
white evangelicals is that they are the oppressed minority in the United States.
Reverend Dr. Gabriel Solguero is the president and founder of the National Latino Evangelical Coalition. He's also the pastor of the gathering place and assemblies of God congregation in Orlando, Florida. Look, I think, like in any community, evangelicals are not a monolith and often times
“when headlines say evangelicals say they mostly mean white evangelicals. What I think makes this”
conversation special is how both guests engage with the idea of welcoming the stranger and Christian thought and how those values come to bear on current debates in the U.S. about immigration and war.
Brittany's insightful conversation with Jason D'Rose and Reverend Dr. Gabriel Solguero after the break.
When Congress eliminated funding for a public media last year, we saw a groundswell of support for NPR. America bears from planet money and it is not too late to be part of this movement. If you missed making a donation during public media giving days, do it right now. Show your support for a public radio that is by the people for the people at donate.npr.org and thanks. We're back with a Sunday story. Here's Brittany Luce host of NPR's It's
Bene minute podcast with NPR's Jason D'Rose and Reverend Dr. Gabriel Solguero. Gabriel, Jason, thank you so much. Hi, good to be here. Hello. To start us off, how are you both seeing churches respond to the presence of ice in their communities across the country? Gabriel will start with you.
“Look, I think that, at least in the Latino evangelical community, there's a deep sense of anxiety”
and disillusionment. People are severely disappointed with these indiscriminate enforcement actions that in many cases are contributing to 25-30% decrease in worship attendants, parents being detained and deported and children either in the foster care system or in care of somebody they trust. So the churches are really, really, I think the word is righteous indignation around these indiscriminate enforcement actions. And Jason, what are you saying?
Well, I've reported largely around the Los Angeles area where I'm located and also from Minneapolis and I've talked to many people elsewhere, Texas, Florida, where these enforcement actions have been taking place and I would say that it depends on the kind of church, you know, if it is say a white progressive church in Minneapolis, I found a lot of people very much out in the streets following DHS agents around blowing whistles to alert people. And these were organized by faith
leaders in the Twin Cities area. If it's a predominantly Latino church, I've been talking to for months now, a predominantly Latino Catholic congregation here in Los Angeles that they are responding by bringing food to members who are too afraid to come to church. So they're organizing, you know, grocery distribution to their members. So there's really a range of responses depending on
The specifics of the congregation.
maybe go out into the streets in ways that congregations where the population feels more
in the crosshairs of DHS might feel less inclined to go out into the streets right now. I wonder what about like when churches support the U.S. government's current immigration enforcement tactics. Because I imagine that there must be some. Well, that's right. I mean, look at, you know, any of the polling that's looked at who supports Donald Trump. It tends to be white evangelicals, white conservative evangelicals by huge, huge numbers. And so in those congregations, I think there's
a lot of focus on rule of law and the importance of paying attention to what the government wants. And understanding that the government is doing something for the good of the people. But I think
“that sometimes that is thought of as the the the only way that the churches are talking about this.”
Hmm. I just want to note like in thinking about like the the range of sort of responses that we've seen in churches across the country thinking right now of what happened back in January. My city's church in St. Paul, Minnesota protesters interrupted service alleging that one of the pastors named David Easterwood was the head of the local ice field office. It seems like there's kind of like a wide variety of response. Have you seen that kind of reflected in some ways as
well Gabriel? I have. Look, I think like in any community evangelicals are not a monolith. And oftentimes when headlines say evangelicals say they mostly mean white evangelicals. They're not
predominantly interviewing the close to 10 million Latino evangelicals the Asian evangelicals, the
African evangelicals the Haitian evangelicals the Somali evangelicals. And so there has to be a
“little more nuance when people say evangelicals say and so the truth is that for the close to 10 million”
Latino evangelicals of which I am one we are deeply indignant about what's going on and there's going to be a reckoning around this issue, particularly around evangelicals of color. I want to jump in, I mean Jason, you're in the midst of reporting a piece about the ways that scripture is showing up in government communications about immigration and war. It's one thing to talk about what's happening with priests in their congregations. It's quite another thing to see
some of this like very Christian rhetoric coming up in government communications.
What's standing out to you about the ways the government is using the language of the Bible? Well I think you know it's not uncommon for say a president to make a reference to scripture in say a state of the union address or in a speech especially if a president is speaking at some sort of memorial service or something like that but what I'm looking at is in sort of official or quasi official capacity. So the Department of Homeland Security has produced a number of videos that it tweets or
puts on Instagram that quote scripture. There's a famous one that came out early this year that begins with blessed are the peacemakers and then with the song everybody wants to rule the world covered by Lord from the Hunger Games. Okay. Plays while video is shown of DHS agents and DHS helicopters going into arrest people. So you know here you have this quotation from the sermon on the mount the attitudes blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of
God contrasted with law enforcement and military style helicopters. There's another instance that I found very interesting. There is a lengthy lengthy tweet from Speaker of the House Mike Johnson. It's more than 1300 word tweet in which he lays out a biblical justification for the Trump administration's immigration policies where he takes to task what he calls liberal people of faith who say that
“caring for the stranger is an important biblical value and he sort of does a lot of biblical”
proof texting to say well here are the good biblical reasons that the government should have strong borders and should enforce immigration policies. And then the other instance I would say that the person within the Trump administration who speaks most frequently using the Bible is probably Pete Hagseth the Secretary of Defense and I'm very interested in a speech he gave at the National Prayer Breakfast a few months ago. So to that end here is a reading from the Holy Gospel
according to Mark chapter 8 verses 28 to 38 the word of the Lord and he uses that to describe why people should go into military action and should fight for their country for whoever would save
His life will lose it but whoever loses his life for my sake and the Gospels ...
this is the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ the Word of the Lord. Sort of equating the idea that
you know if you lay down your life for your neighbors which is what Jesus is saying to do in to arch if they're back against the empire that was oppressing them Hagseth is more or less saying well if you lay down your life for your country you will get into heaven. The warrior is willing lay down his life for his unit his country and his creator that warrior finds eternal life his legacy will not be one of loss but of glory for a cause greater than himself. All power
all honor and all glory belongs to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I'll say this I was raised going to church I'm sure my parents are listening right now they're like
“girl you should remember some of this stuff like you should remember some of this. I'm wondering”
like a real how how how how are these examples that Jason has brought up of how different government officials are sort of interpreting biblical text how does that square with your own understanding of the Bible? Well Brittany before I was a pastor I was a seminary professor
and so I'm trained in theological ethics and one of the first things they tell you in seminary is
when you take a text out of a context it becomes a pretext to defend your opinion and so that happens all the time in history many people use scripture to defend slavery scripture was used to defend apartheid in South Africa scripture was used to defend segregation in the United States of America and as a theologian I have often seen
“that you have to take the whole volume of scripture so Matthew 25 this is Jesus speaking”
Jesus who for Christians is the maximum authority I was a stranger and you welcomed me I was hungry and you fed me I was naked and you pulled me in prison and you visited me and people will say when that when did I do this to your Jesus and Jesus says when you did this to the least of these my sisters and my brothers he roost 13 says where's remember hospitality because many of you have entertained angels unaware the word for hospitality in Greek is xenophilia literally remember
love of the stranger in the book of Leviticus god tells the nation over and over treat the stranger like a citizen because you were once a stranger in the land of Egypt and a bunch of evangelicals Britain used Romans 13 be subject to those in authority over you because they do not and I'm paraphrasing not quoting yield the sword and vain but they forget that Romans 13 comes after Romans 12 hmm oh my gosh I know that one yeah that says do not be conform to this world but be
uh but yeah be transformed by the renewing of your mind oh see your parents did a good job
your parents did a good job and so here's what I want to say is you can take any text out of
its context to make it say whatever you want but overwhelmingly the gospel is for the immigrant the orphan the stranger and the widow and the poor overwhelmingly everybody's trying to get God on their side everybody but Abraham Lincoln was right it's not his God on my side it's am I doing what God wants me to do my on God side you're listening to the Sunday story we'll be right back
we're back with more Brittany loose's conversation with NPR's Jason D'Rose and Reverend Dr. Gabriel Saul Giro about religion and policy you know you've brought so many different examples Gabriel of how scripture has been used throughout history to justify certain political actions but I I wonder if there are any specific examples of the U.S. government using scripture in support of their actions or agenda Jason is that something that has come up in your reporting
well it's pretty unusual for you know in a pluralistic society for people to say like
“the Bible says this here is the legislative agenda laid out by the Bible I think that you know”
many biblical scholars and historians of Christianity would argue that the Bible does not offer a legislative agenda there isn't a one to one you know correlation like you can't look at ancient Israel or ancient Greece and say this is how legislation should happen here however I would say that during the last year or so in the Trump administration we are seeing more and more of that again not necessarily from President Trump himself but from
Those in his circle like the Speaker of the House Mike Johnson like Pete Hagu...
recently to the birthright citizenship case that was argued in the Supreme Court there were a number
of religious groups who filed front of the court briefs and one in particular was a very broad ranging one that included Catholics and Protestants and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists that made broad appeal to many world religions understanding of the value of welcoming the stranger to say this is why the Supreme Court should find this way that's very different from saying this one religious tradition says this one thing therefore we should do it in the United States
the Bible says this therefore we should pass this law or that law
you know one of the things that's been kind of oh my mind about this really prominently is like
technically technically America is a secular nation in 1983 did Ronald Reagan declare it the year of the Bible yes but technically America is a secular nation so I wonder why
“is the government leaning into religion in its messaging look I think I want to say a few things”
about this so for it number one I agree with Jason that the Bible is not a public policy manual it is a book that forms faith and Christian character and from which we draw moral and ethics for our living in this society number two it is Thomas Jefferson who argued in a letter to a Baptist
church for separation of church and stated that that phrase is not in the constitution
what is in the constitution you're quite right Brittany is that the government shall not establish any religion as the religion of the state nor prohibit the free exercise thereof so it can establish nor can it limit it so I believe that people of faith enter into the public space from their biblical worldview if they're Christians from their Jewish worldview if they're Jewish from their Muslims worldview I don't believe that there's really a separation of church
and state what I do believe is that the state cannot impose religion but people bring their worldview if they're if they're deist if they're some kind of moralist they bring that worldview to how they interpret public policy to how they interpret laws whether they're for or against laws
“but I think that our democracy is rich enough to allow people to come from a religious or non-religious”
worldview without imposing it strictly from the government you know you said that this is a secular nation it's the government is secular but the nation itself is actually very religious for a Western democracy the United States is one of the most religiously identified countries on the planet part of why I think scholars who study this say that is the case is that there is that idea of both free exercise and disestablishment that you can come here and practice the faith that you
choose to practice or no faith at all and the government will not tell you that you cannot do that that it is disestablished you know America was founded you know away from European countries that had national state churches the pilgrims were trying to get away from religious oppression so I would say this is not a secular nation this is a very religious nation especially compared to other other Western democracies but it is not a nation that has
an established religion by the government I wonder though why do you think then
“the government is leaning so hard into religion in its messaging well I mean I think part of what's”
going on in the Trump administration is that the Trump administration knows who their base is and they are playing to that base the question I think from a political point of view is you know is that percentage enough to continue in power or are there enough of the other groups that say no we are Christians of a different sort or we are Muslims or Jews or Buddhists of a different sort or Hindus of a different sort and do not agree with those policies and that
a minority group which white evangelicals are a minority group in the United States the question is do they get to set the legislative and political agenda for the United States yeah Jason I agree with you in that there's some political advantage because as soon as you read the scripture people say oh this politician believes like I do this kind of the utilitarian version of scripture
Say hey I'll use scripture to defend a policy and that identifies me with a c...
there's that that's a very powerful tool to say God thinks this way and if you don't think this way
you don't think like God you're not on the right side okay this last question is going to it's going to shake the table a little bit I'm wondering oftentimes when Americans see other countries governments using scripture or religious messaging to enforce policy we don't like that America tends to get up in arms so I want to know why is America so quick to criticize when other governments use this approach even when America has this same approach the same tactic
“of using religious messaging to govern and it's arsenal I mean I think it is interesting to me that”
part of the rhetoric of conservative white evangelicals is that they are the oppressed minority
in the United States that they say we live in this you know this godly secular society and we are this small group of people you know fighting for God and country what if I'm interesting about that is that they are a minority but they don't seem to be oppressed in part because they tend to be straight white people but part of the self understanding is that they are under attack from secular society and so using the Bible and their understanding of the Christian faith to describe how
America should be I think is in part wanting to claim or they might say reclaim what had been a majority in the United States you know it's it's still a majority and this is the part that I
always trying to remind people of that like almost two thirds of America is Christian the actual
biggest group after that two thirds Christian is about a quarter of the US that's nothing in particular they don't identify either atheists, agnostic or nothing in particular so they're
“called the nuns the n-o-n-e-s yeah I think it's important that we unpack this because this has”
a lot of texture in nuance when people start saying Christianity's under siege in America I say how many Christian radio stations are there in America how many Christian television channels are there in America you see them on TV all the time how many churches are free to worship in America I think I think we have to have a real honest look at this perceived under siege yes there are cultural conflicts around a whole host of values that I'm willing to debate at any time
but that's not the same as saying we don't have religious freedom there are people in other countries who are saying my goodness you have no sense of what real persecution is and the Christians and other religious minority groups who are hiding who are in prison there was a report by word-releaf that came out recently that overwhelmingly the people of detained are either evangelical or Catholic so at a one side the administration is saying we stand with faith leaders with
evangelicals and Catholics and Christians and at the other side the majority of the people who are being detained are Christians this is the inconsistency that we're trying to highlight my gosh I really appreciate being able to have this conversation with the two of you Jason Gabriel thank you both so much you're welcome thank you that was Brittany loose host of MPR's it's been a minute podcast speaking with MPR religion
correspondent Jason D'Rose and Reverend Dr. Gabriel Solguero listen to more of it's been a minute with Brittany loose wherever you get your podcast this episode was produced for the Sunday story by Justin Jan and edited by Leanna Simstrom the original episode of it's been a minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose and edited by Nina Potter the Sunday story team includes Andrew Mombo and Jenny Schmidt Irene Negucci is our executive producer i'm Aisha Roscoe up versus
“back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week until then have a great rest of your week”
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