Why Your Emotional Wounds Are Slowly Destroying You — Dr. Guy Winch on Rejection, Loneliness & Healing

a confidence reviving our self-esteem,

“reminding ourselves what we do bring to the table,”

so that we feel good about ourselves we do the opposite. If someone has a problem with substance use disorder, please call one call placement. That's 888-831-1581, and if we can't help you,

we'll make a referral to someone who can. One call placement is affiliated with Carrera Treatment Wellness and Spa and one method treatment centers. Joining me today is my friend,

psychologist, Dr. Guy Winch, who has spent years studying something we all experience, but rarely treat properly, emotional pain.

He's the author of the book, Emotional First Aid,

and his TED Talk on the subject, has been viewed by millions of people around the world. His work focuses on the everyday emotional injuries people experience, things like rejection, loneliness, failure and heartbreak, and why we tend to ignore those wounds

until they start affecting our mental health, our relationships, and sometimes even lead to destructive coping behaviors. Guy, it's great to have you with us. Guy, you talk about emotional first aid, treating rejection, failure, and loneliness

before they fester. In my world, untreated emotional pain is one of the main drivers of addiction. How often do you think addiction is really just untreated emotional injury?

I think most of the time, I mean addiction is people trying to find a solution to emotional pain, essentially, if they weren't in pain, then they would have less need to use substances to numb that pain to distract from that pain.

It doesn't necessarily start that way, but it ends up in that way. And loneliness, especially, is hugely significant when it comes to addiction, because not feeling that sense of belonging,

and then feeling a sense of belonging with around other people who are using, and the same way that you are using is a major issue. Yeah, for sure. You've talked about,

actually you've said that people ignore emotional wounds the way they used to ignore infections before antibiotics. In addiction treatment, we see the end result of that every day. What's the earliest moment someone should intervene

with emotional first aid so that it doesn't turn

into something destructive? No, immediately. In other words, if you fall down and scrape your knee and it's bleeding, you're not going to ask yourself, how long should I wait before I actually decide to do something about that wound?

“You'll treat it, and that's what I believe”

should be the case when it comes to emotional wounds. Now, not all wounds require immediate treatment. Many of them, we can just shrug off and just keep going, and I'll hurt for a bit, but then we'll be okay. But let's use rejection as an example.

It's a dating situation. It's a work situation. You've got the French situation. You've got rejected. That's going to be painful for most people.

Whether you need to do something to revive your self-esteem in that moment to get your mood back to a better place, depends on how long that in how sharp that pain is, how long you're carrying it. Some people were like,

"Okay, I just got rejected after a first day.

That's going to sting for now, but I'll be fine." You don't necessarily have to do something. But some people are like, "I just got rejected from the first day, and I literally, I sat there imagining this person will be my future spouse and all, and suddenly like,

"Oh, no, now you have to do something." Because that's a much bigger, deeper cut, as it were. So, the idea of emotional first day is like, it's a toolkit that you have at home.

“It's a first aid box for emotions that you need to have an apply,”

and you apply them when necessary. You're so right-sized about everything. I just can't stop smiling. I'm so happy to have you here. I don't have the words. Okay.

What's the emotional injury you see most often that people pretend doesn't matter, but actually changes the entire direction of their life? There are many, the one I see most lately, just because of where my focus is lately, is burnout.

People who are burnt out at work, and they don't realize the burnt out. They think that, "No, I'm just grinding." I'm like, "You're definitely grinding yourself into the ground, is what you're doing."

They've, you know, kind of withdrawn from life and every other aspects.

“In many cases, they're using substances to get through the day,”

to get through the overworking, the many industries where the expectation is overworking. So baked in that so many people start using substances, just to be able to, you know, whatever forms of unfettered means, et cetera, opioids, whatever.

And they don't realize that, "Oh, no, this is a problem. This is not normative coping." This is not just like, "Oh, I'm tired." Because I work a lot. This is absolute burnout.

This is you, you know, really propping yourself up artificially,

because it's not sustainable otherwise, what you're doing,

and the price they pay in terms of their health is significant. The World Health Organization has a stat that says around 750,000 people, a year, die from overworking, literally, it kills them. And people, you're kidding. No, I'm not, and people are just entirely unaware.

How dangerous that is. You know, that was a surprising answer to me. I did not see that coming. And the reason I didn't see it coming was because COVID, after COVID, it felt to me like everyone was apathetic,

and nobody wanted to work anymore, right? People don't work in the office anymore.

They work at home, everybody's got their side hustles,

and you know, making money on social media and stuff like that. I don't, that surprised me. That really did. But that's a paradox, right? Because what happened, you're absolutely right about COVID.

What COVID did is it let people feel, "I have much more control now." Over my work life, I can work from home a lot of the time. I can do a side hustle and control those kinds of hours. It gave this illusion that people were regaining control.

We had a whole quiet quitting movement to supposedly you know, rectify the work life balance and make, you know, an add balance to the work life balance. And also companies because of COVID at the time. Well, like, oh, we really need to pay attention here

or all our resources for, you know, to manage stress in the workplace and all of that. But at the same time, that people were regaining control and refocused on a better work life balance. And at the same time, the companies were providing all these resources. Over the past few years, work stress and burnout are at peak highs.

In other words, work stress kept going up, burnout keeps going up. That's not working. And it's not working because psychologically, when, you know, we have to keep eye on the ball and we don't, we don't realize when we're burnt out. We don't realize how much we bring work stresses home into the home.

I'll give you one more stat that, you know, like studies show that when one person is really stressed out at their job, their partner will start to develop symptoms of burnout.

“Because that's how much it will transfer from one person to another.”

People are completely unaware of these. Well, sure, because it's a heavy, sure, because it's a heavy weight to carry. Right, doctor, it's a heavy weight to carry. Because you come home, you're burned out, you're stressed, you're given it to your spouse, right?

And now she's forced to carry all of that. So that makes complete sense. Except people think that they don't. People think like, no, I leave it at the door. No, I don't, you know, I try and hide it from my family and I can't hide it from you.

That is the correct response. Thank you. I try not to respond that way when people say that to me, but that is the correct response. So of course, you can't do that. Well, it's only because I knew that that was the only response. Right, that was the only response to have to something like that.

Yeah, all right, you've spent years helping people understand emotional health.

“Why are we so good at treating physical injuries, but often neglect emotional ones?”

My science psychology has done a terrible job of public relations. You know, they have done a terrible job of convincing people that this is a science, with a lot of known things, there's a ton we don't know, of course. But there's a lot we do. We've been a science for over 120 years, and there is no mechanism to get that information out to the public on the physical front.

We'll literally look 100 years behind where we are, 75 years behind, where we are, physically, there can be a study about, oh, here's a new trans fat that somebody found. And ever, oh, let's read about that. But the basics, people don't know. People don't know how to define loneliness, let alone if they're experiencing. They can't distinguish between sadness and depression. They can't distinguish between worry

And again, I blame us. There is no way that we've brought this information out. We don't teach basic things of schools, which we should. We failed people in that regard. Well, there's help on the way. Yes.

“How do you think AI is going to help bridge that knowledge gap?”

Physical AI will only be able to bridge the knowledge gap to the extent that people have veiled themselves of those tools and actually seek that information. And again, there needs to be a basic understanding of what goes wrong or, you know, like a basic curiosity that people need to develop because they don't have the moment. But what is going on with me? I am sure that you've seen time and again that you ask people

what they're feeling in a certain situation. And they do not have a clue because they don't know how to check in and assess what am I feeling? And if they come back, it's with an answer.

I am feeling and the answer is usually not even a feeling. Okay, I'm feeling blah. I'm feeling,

you know, I'm feeling me. I'm like, that doesn't tell me anything about what you're feeling. Feeling is come in many, many strands. We have many of them at once with different in 10 cities. But people aren't even knowledgeable enough. And again, they're thought, they're no one taught them. But they are knowledgeable enough to actually do and figure out, okay, I'm feeling a little bit of this and a lot of that and some of this, to be able to

accurately figure out what they might need to help with, what they are using, I fall right now, is relationships. Here, I'm going to upload all my texts with the person that I'm dating.

And you tell me if they love me, that they're doing. Your TED Talk on emotional first aid

“has reached millions of people. What do you think resonates most about that message?”

In that TED Talk, the continual thread thread talk is this comparison between how we prioritize our physical health, over our emotional health. And I begin the talk by talking about the fact that I'm an identical twin. And when you're an identical twin, you become an expert at spotting favoritism. Why did he get this? And I didn't. And therefore, that I noticed this favoritism. I noticed this thing. And then I talk about very personal things that have happened in my

relationship with my brother that brought up emotional, different emotional wounds and what we know about them, what we don't know about them, how we treat them, how we don't treat them. I think that making it personal, talking about my relationship with my identical twin is something that drives the curiosity. But I also think that talking about feelings and emotional wounds, like loneliness, or like rejection, or like failure, like rumination, and talking about these things in a very

practical way of how we experience them in our daily life. And to define these things as wounds, most people don't. I just, yeah, they weren't interested in me. I didn't do well, but not, and that left a wound. And now my confidence is shattered. And now I'm feeling helpless. And now I my mood is bad. And now I lost self-esteem points. And you know, like to define that in those kinds of ways, I think is a new take for a lot of people that just makes sense to them, because it's

correct, that is how we experience it. So I think when somebody explains it, like this is actually what's going on. And this is why you're feeding the way you are, it resonates people, clicks, people go like, oh, yes, that makes sense. I've experienced that. Yeah, you and I have been 100% aligned on everything that has come out of your mouth. Absolutely. I mean, I wanted you on the show because we have like thinking, there was one thing I heard that I want to ask you about,

because I feel differently about it than you do. You said that it's not their fault that they don't know. And what my feeling about that is at some point it is your fault. At some point, you know, we've got responsibility for our own mental health, our own physical health. We have to be our own

advocate, right? So with AI, and I get that the science is always 10 or 15 years ahead of the practice,

that I get. Okay, but not with this thing. This things change in every six weeks. And people are either going to get on board or they're going to be left behind. Okay, if you ain't at the, if you

“ain't at the dinner, okay, you're on the menu. That's what I'm telling you about this. How do you,”

how do you feel about the responsibility aspect of it? And when you should like say to yourself, okay, I'm the adult now. I'm not in my child. I'm not a victim. I'm responsible for my own happiness.

Number one on the individual level. We all have a narrative. Our story as we believe it to be. We not often aware of what our narrative is, but there is this underlying life story we tell ourselves that is a result of our experiences. Now, it can be very incorrect or it can be very slanted,

“because that's how we constructed that story. But there are people who've been through experiences”

in life, which have made them believe that they are victims, have made them believe the world is always

against me. Like, I never get a break. Bad stuff always happens to me. I can't rely on anyone. It's, you know, like everyone else has a leg up, except me. There are people whose life story, whose life experiences led them to believe that. Now, they could also be believing, I've had a lot of hardships and I've survived them. I'm a survivor. I'm somebody, you know, like you could have a much more positive sound on those exact same circumstances, but there

many people, again, were not aware that they need to edit their life story in a way that empowers them more than rather than paralyses them. So there's some people who come with that sense of victimhood

and paralysis and helplessness to the equation. And they're not used to thinking in terms of,

let me take agency, let me take over, let me get informed, let me find tools to help myself I'm the adult in the room now. So as an example of individual forces that can work against a person. And then there's cultural forces that can work against the person. Manor often, I'm generalising, but don't cancel me. But men are socialised to, for the stiff up a lip, like, you know, like, don't, come on, just put the feelings aside, just get on with it.

Like you just keep going forward. You have a responsibility, be a man, like, you know,

“take, you know, be responsible. You're a provider. You need to do this. And like, they are directed away”

from their emotional experience in the socialisation. And so they are not, you know,

so lots of men, obviously not all, but many, many men don't, it doesn't occur to them. They can actually do something. They think a lot of what psychology is, is bullshit, if I may say that. It, it, it's just, ah, that's just like, that stuff for some people. That's not, you know, like, that it's not really. They don't get the reality of it. They don't get how, profoundly it's impacting them one way or the other. They truly don't know that. So they don't have a reason to believe that

those sources and resources would actually be valuable to them. They would train to think that they shouldn't need them. And it's a weakness to even try and look for them. And that's a big hurdle for a lot of people to overcome. So I agree with you. That's something I agree with you in principle. But there's a lot of factors that block a lot of people from getting there. Absolutely right. You know, you're explaining the guy 10 years ago before ways that's lost.

Okay, for a half hour and refuses to ask for directions. Okay. But that's unhealthy masculinity. Okay. Oh, for sure. It's not good. It's very limiting. That's for sure. And that's right.

“And that's why education is so important because it's, you know, this ain't the 60s”

or the 70s anymore. This is like, you know, therapy isn't something you have to do. It's something you get to do. It's the ultimate luxury. And it's how responsible people deal with their stressors. And this is a, it's, you're right, man. There are so many people that don't have a basic foundation to even understand, hey, I'm feeling shitty. Why don't I go see a therapist and see what's wrong with me? It's bizarre to me. You know what I say to those people because I, you know,

I encounter them as often as you do. I'm sure. I say to them, let's get to the nitty gritty. You are in a bad place at the moment. Correct? They'll say yes. And you have not been able to get yourself out of that bad place. Correct? Correct. So you have two options. Stay in it for whatever reason I'm not sure. Or get help. Change the change, you know, the frame. Do something different. But to just stay there because you don't know how to help yourself. And to stay in a bad place,

which you know is bad and stuck for you. That logic I do not see. They can't get out of it, though. They can't get out of it because it's their ache. It's theirs. It's comfortable. It's what's not comfortable, but it's familiar. And they just can't get out of it. How do you do it? So what would I try and do when I'm talking to someone like that? And I see that as part of my job.

my job is to give them some hope to show them an alternative that could be different for them. I don't I can't flesh out the whole path, but I can show them that there might be one, that there might be a different way for them. And to try and get them, you know, even if you show them the smallest light at the end of a tunnel, they might walk toward it. What exactly is emotional

“first aid and why do you believe people should practice it regularly?”

Well again, the most of the first aid is the idea that as we go through life,

we sustain emotional wounds of kinds. We spoke about rejection, we spoke about loneliness, we talk about failure for a minute. So let's say somebody is failing in some way at work. They have this big presentation, they didn't lend the account. They, you know, they they prepared this huge document. Can we do something different? Yes. Dr. Can we do something different? Yeah. Let's do it on rejection, but let's do it together and we'll do a real and we'll do a

real life thing that's going on with me right now. I don't care if it's embarrassing or not. I don't care. I ain't running for office. Okay. Okay. You brought up the text thing. You brought up the text thing. There's a girl that I like. Okay. And we've been going back and forth and she says she finds me attractive. Okay. But it's the beginning. And I'm a love addict. Okay. So I'm already planning our wedding. Okay. And about on the fourth. Okay. A week ago,

I, we were texting back and forth. Everything's great. And I text her, call me when you get home after you've settled and with a glass of wine. And I don't hear from her for a week. And then she just texts me a heart. I feel rejected and I don't want to reengage because how could this girl really like me? You know? And I don't want to like audition for the job. I just wanted to go into this thing slow and organically, right? But it hurts. And I feel rejected. And now I don't want to call

anybody else. What's going on with me? Okay. When we get rejected, one of the first things we typically do. You didn't mention if you do this. You don't need to, but the one of the things we typically do is we try and understand why we're hurting. And in the service quote unquote of that quest, we start to look at all our shortcomings and all our faults. And everything we might have

“done wrong because that's what we seek to understand. Like, well, if they're not engaging with me,”

if she's rejecting me, I must not be adequate in some way to her. And then at a time where our confidence in our self-esteem is hurting, we actually do the opposite of what we need to do. And we start beating ourselves up by doing a review of everything that's in my head potentially might be wrong with me, whether that was relevant to her or not, doesn't matter, whether those things we've been displayed or not, doesn't matter, but we literally beat ourselves up when we're already down.

It's a very common thing to do. We have this narrative of a self-critical voice in our head going,

see, you idiot. You shouldn't have thought to do it like, why did you assume such and such or like, why did you wear that? To the, oh, I shouldn't have said this, all of that speculation. And so at a time where we're actually supposed to be reviving a confidence reviving our self-esteem, reminding ourselves what we do bring to the table so that we feel good about ourselves, we do the opposite. So that's one thing that's majorly wrong that people do when they get rejected. The

second thing they do is that they analyze thoroughly all of them and forget to look at what's happening

“potentially with the other person. Like, did this actually have something to do with you?”

Were you misreading the signals? Was she actually not that into it all along? Or was she very tentative? All along? Or was she somebody who, you know, like, people tell me, you're, again, I'm no

nothing about this woman. So, but, but people tell me, like, well, yeah, I know they've never been

in a serious relationship, but this time they seemed really engaged and I'm like, okay, you just like jumped over that initial part, it was kind of very important. They've never been in a serious relationship, but you thought you'll be the one, like in other words. And so if they're not being serious, it's because they don't know how to be in a serious relationship. They have commitment issues, they feel threatened, they don't know how to do it. Whatever the thing is, why are you assuming

and I'm not suggesting we should, you know, like we're going to talk about her, but, but

there's something's going on with her, because it's an arbitrary thing to wait a week and then send

“a heart and a red heart. What, you know, like I said to me, but use your words, what does that mean?”

In other words, like what's the idea there? So, what when I ask people to do, especially when there's a lot of texts, as I ask them to look at the texts and literally count the lines. How many lines are you writing? How many lines are they writing? How many texts did you initiate? How many texts did they initiate? And you will see it usually a difference. It's very of, it's, it's not common that you'll find it even. And probably in this scenario without

my knowing anything about it, you might have been texting more. You might have been saying more.

Other than this week of disruption, there might have been loves between her response to texts. You know what I mean? I don't know if you said, text me when you get home and you're settled in with a glass of wine, whether that had been a clear plan that you both had or it was a suggestion. If it was a suggestion, you don't know if she was free or able to do that or, you know, if it was a clear plan and she's renegade on a clear plan, that says something about her

that she actually made the plan, but then didn't show up to the plan without telling you, you know, that's not convenient. So, that says something about her level of communication, her level of responsibility. Again, I'm just speculating. But what I'm saying is,

“there's a lot that you can understand there and what you need to do. And it's just one of the”

thing to mention. The other thing that rejection does is it makes us hurt and the research is really interesting. We hurt even if the person who's rejecting us is not someone with that interested in because we're a hard-wired. That's exactly where I'm at. I saw a future and I'm not even that invested yet, but it still feels bad. It's not so crushing. It's not, but it doesn't feel good. That's for sure. There are experiments done with rejection in which a person is in a rejection

situation. They are rejected by by research Confederates without understanding that that's what actually is going on. They think they were truly rejected by a stranger. And then when they are told in some of these studies because they don't know the stranger is, hey, that is someone that belongs to a group that you despise. And if you're a black participant, oh, that's somebody who belongs to the KKK, or you're Jewish participant. That's a neo-Nazi, et cetera. And then they are asked how

much they still hurt. Doesn't make the hurt go away. And sometimes they're told in these experiments, actually, that wasn't real. That was a research Confederate who we had asked out that part. So the rejection didn't actually happen. It doesn't make the sting go away because it's that

“hard, very wired for us to feel rejection as painful. So you have to discount some of it. In your head,”

you'll feel it, but it doesn't mean what you think it might mean because most people think like all if I'm feeling it, it must mean I really want to them or I'm such a loser or so I know it doesn't mean that at all. It means you're hard by it. It likes when when you stub your toe and it's hurtful. It doesn't mean anything, except that you stub your toe. It doesn't mean anything about you as a person, except what you're going. You know what I mean? And so, but what that pain then causes people

to like withdraw because I don't want to expose myself to that again. People become risk-averse. And they're like, let me, let me stop dating for a while because that was painful. And my

response is always, you were dating because you were looking to meet someone, how is not dating

for a while, are you going to help your confidence and be going to help you meet someone? Treat the wound and then go out there again. You're so, you're so great at this. Now, let's, let's tie this up. I did write more, not significantly more. If she wrote, you know, a line, I might have written three lines because I'm not, I don't, brevity isn't my thing, but it certainly wasn't like I've waited to text back because I'm not chasing anybody. It doesn't feel good to me, right?

So now that she's sent that heart after a week and you have that information, what should I do? What's the practical step right now to take to protect my own mental health? But not hide in a hole. When was the heart text? I don't know. Yesterday, okay, I think it's 24 hours is adequate and what I would respond again. I know you, this is what

If you're interested in seeing me again, let me know. If not, wishing you the best.

How about I didn't hear from you for a week? I just didn't think you were interested. And then what's the message though? And therefore, let her, that, that, that is meant to get a response. Right, but the way you said it, kind of, doesn't say enough because it doesn't lead actually to something. It doesn't, it doesn't provoke response because it's saying to us, I'm a tester doctor. Testing is not a tester. Testing is not a tester. Testing is not a tester. It's my, I know.

So I'm, I'm advising against the testing. I'm advising against being more assertive and saying,

“like, I, I had enjoyed our first meetings. If you want to continue, let me know if not wishing it.”

Like, that's what I'm saying. Like, I would, she has to come back with the S, I want to keep seeing you, or no, but no, because she's going to go wish you was she. She's going to, again, what did the heart communicate after a week? We don't know. So let's not give her a chance to be vague and unclear again, because then you're left with like, and now I just don't understand what's going on. Like, tell her, you know, like,

in or out, basically, is nicely, but that's those, those, them's the options. I told you I didn't

like it. All right, loneliness has beat, that was beautiful, Dr. Thank you, and that was very practical, not just for me, but for everybody, because everybody goes through it and everybody feels bad. All right, loneliness has become a huge issue in modern society. Why do you think so many people

“feel more isolated today? Look, the, the, the easy answer there is social media and smartphones,”

and people, and this precedes the pandemic. And, and people having the comfort of, you know, we can text, we can face time, we can, you know, we can have video calls, there's less of a need to meet in person, you know, we used to have to go out to meet someone. Now you don't, you can stay home.

Yes, used to have to go out to socialize. Now you can stay home. So we've lost a lot of face time,

number one. In that loss of face time, we've also lost some of our social skills. And some of the sharpness we have about reading social cues and reading comfortable in social situations that can be stressful for a lot of people for many, many, many, many people, and the more you are not in those situations, the more you are virtual, the less and less comfortable you are once you're in person.

“But the other thing is, the other thing that social media did is it gave us all comparison points.”

Before social media, you know, because loneliness is very comparative, it is about your expectation of how connected you feel with other people. If you think, well, I just have a couple of friends, but probably most other people only have a couple of friends. You don't necessarily feel bad. But if you only have a couple of friends and when you look at social media, those friends and everyone else seems to have many friends and they're going to five parties and even even to one,

then relatively you start to feel disconnected because it's a relative thing like I and not as sufficiently connected as I could be. If you're on a desert island with three other people, you know what I mean? Like, you know, this is probably going to feel lonely because you're connected to everyone you can be. You know, and so that that relative comparison is making people feel lonely. One other factor that I want to mention, loneliness is a real trap, because psychologically,

because what it does to us is it makes us, when we really need to reach out, it makes us so hesitant to reach out, that we tend to, in our heads, devalued the friendships we do have and devalued the worth that they provide. So it feels like, well, that person hasn't called me in three weeks, so they don't care about me when, well, you haven't called them either. And secondly, and you know, it wasn't that it's not that great of friendship anyway. Those are misperceptions. That's

what our brain does to protect us from the feeling of loneliness. Well, they probably didn't care anywhere, so no loss, you know, like a sour grape thing. But those misperceptions then make us even more hesitant to reach out. Why would I reach out to someone who doesn't seem interested in me, even though, again, you didn't seem interested in them. And why would I reach out to someone who wasn't the best friend that, anyway? Well, because they were decent enough friends or everyone has to be a close

friend. And so when people do reach out, they will reach out and text something, which I've seen time and again, like, I haven't spoken to you in three weeks. Now, that might

to you in three weeks. And so it's not inviting you, actually pushing people away. And as opposed to

saying, like, hey, it's been a while, I miss you, which we much more inviting. It's a little more risky emotionally. But that is going to much more likely get you a response of like, I miss you, too. Let's get together. Or I'm going to go to the party, but I don't know any why is that risky? I have no problem ever saying, I just missed you. And I wanted to call why, why would somebody feel feel that that's risky? I mean, I see how a teenager would feel that. No, anyone would feel

it. If you're lonely, what you feel is, and again, this is a natural thing that happened with loneliness. You feel like why aren't people reaching out? Don't they understand that I feel lonely?

So it's not, you're not saying to someone who you love who you trust, hey, I miss you. You're

saying to someone who you feel has failed you, has not been there for you, who hasn't cared about

“you enough. Hey, I miss you. That's why it feels risky. And it might be that they do care about”

you enough, just they were busy and, you know, you have friends. I have friends, right? I spoke to my buddy, Stuart this morning. I had spoken to him in two weeks. I missed him yesterday. I called them and I said, hey, I haven't spoken to you in a couple of weeks. I miss you. Call me. And so he called me this morning. Okay. It was like, right? Yes, some people feel that way. And that's why I'm saying, I mean, but with the time explaining that that loneliness literally creates a distorted lens.

We, it, it distorts our perceptions. Literally, it makes us look at someone who absolutely. And I will say to people like, but did anything happen between you that do you think they stopped caring? No. Then they're busy. They just reach out and nudge them. Remind them. But it's I have no but they don't care because they didn't reach out. I'm like, they're not a mind reader. And you

“didn't reach out either. So the loneliness creates the rejection. They overlap. And that's why”

they bounce back and forth. The loneliness creates a rejection, which creates loneliness, which creates, you know, all of that. Heartbreak is something nearly everyone goes through at some point. Why does the brain react to heartbreak almost like a physical injury? Well, it's was what what brain scans illustrate functional MRIs showed that the brain responding to heartbreak in very similar ways, not exact but very similar ways, as it does to the withdrawal,

heroin addict might go through when they're withdrawing from heroin. It literally makes you, and because if think of heroin heroin addict with drawing, especially heroin addict, then you would feel, yeah, they're going to be focused solely on getting another fix. That's the only thing that's going to matter to them. Nothing else will matter to them. They will do anything to get that

fix. They will, you know, like do all kinds of things. They would never do otherwise to get that fix.

And their entire being is oriented towards how do I get another fix? That would seem not surprising if you saw that behavior in a heroin addict. That's the behavior you tend to see in heartbroken people. And it's shocking because, and it's shocking to them too, that they're so desperate, that they're acting out of character, that they're like, you know, feeling completely crazy because they don't understand that that's what's happening in their brain.

Do you know what I think's really happening, doctor? Just, and I'm interested to know what you think when you're coming off heroin, you feel like you're dying. So if the brain images are

“are similar, right, then heartbreak feels like you're dying. That's what I think's happening.”

Yeah, it feels like, yeah, it feels like you're purposeful living has been taken away. Like your whole life was oriented toward that person and they're gone and therefore what's it all about now? What are some practical things people can do to recover emotionally after a major loss or breakup? I spent five years in a depression. Okay. So let's not go down that route. Look, if you spent five years in a depression after a breakup, you and many people fall into

that morass because of that thing that everyone will tell you which is incorrect. I mean, it's correct, but it's not sufficient, which is like time will heal. It just takes more time. And what that does with people when they think that time will heal is it makes them sit by and wait to feel better. But in fact, recovering from heartbreak is an active process of recovery

that you have to actively go about identifying and filling. And that's not a passive waiting it out.

Waiting it out is not necessarily good in any kind of grief. Can you give me examples in any

“example? Yes, for example, you have to you lose part of your social circle if not most of it.”

You have to replace those people. You were a wee. Now you're an eye. Your whole sense of identity have to reorient. Are you going back to the person you were before you met that person? Have you evolved what aspects of that newness are you keeping? What are you rejecting? How are you reorienting your life with all the vacant spaces that you have for activities that you used to do together?

We can say, we are doing this. We are doing that. What are you doing? Now, like there's literally

there's vacant time that vacant friendships there's empty spaces on the wall. The empty spaces in your sense of identity. Like all of those things have to be actively thought through considered and actively filled. Beautiful. On this show, we talk about addiction recovery. In your experience,

“what emotional struggles most often drive people towards addictive behaviors.”

Many different things do it. For some it's a slippery slope. I don't know anyone who intends to become addicted, but they are ignoring the risks. They start and then it gets more

and then it gets more and they do not notice that they are addressing emotional wounds

by using substances. They don't notice how deep they're going. But the things that can start them out is just different, emotional pain. Like experiences of emotional pain, disappointment, failures, heartbreak, all kinds of things like that that they're just trying to numb themselves to. Or they haven't figured out a purpose in life. So they're not actually pursuing something that's giving the meaning and satisfaction. So, you know, I don't need meaning and satisfaction when I'm

high because I feel fine. But when I'm not, I don't. You know, like there are many, many different things that can lead to it. I say, "Lation can lead to it." It really kind of comes from all different

“angles. There are many entryways, unfortunately, into addiction, I think. If someone listening”

right now is struggling emotionally, but doesn't realize it, what are some of the signs they should pay attention to? Are they feeling differently than they used to? Are they feeling bad in whichever way you want to interpret that? Sad, anxious, upset, rejected, lonely, whatever, you know, whatever form that takes continually. Is that persisting? Are they not? Think of it again that the equivalency with a physical wound, you expect a physical wound to hurt less as time goes on.

You expect the flu to get better as time goes on. You expect an infection to go down as you're treating it as time goes on. Are things getting better or are they not or are they getting worse? And in that case, if you are not getting better, if this is persisting, if you're feeling stuck, if it's inhibiting you, of doing the things and being the ways you used to be, then you need help. Yeah, I love, I love the fact that everything we've talked about so

far is practical and usable and simple for the masses to understand because what you do is very heavy. So to put it in a package that is usable for the masses is your gift. That is a gift. All right, what is one simple emotional habit people can start today that would improve their mental health? I can think of 10. I'm going to go with gratitude. Gratitude and I want to just define it. Gratitude means writing or thinking a little bit about one thing a day that you're actually

grateful for. Now, I say that to people and they go like, okay, the sun and I'm like, no, no, no, no, the sun is not an answer. Why the sun? What does the sun make you feel? How do you feel differently on sunny days? You actually have to elaborate it. You actually have to explain to yourself, again, in writing, if you can, or in your head, why you are grateful for that? Because what does it give you? What it would be? What would your life be like without it? It requires a little bit of depth.

But why that practice is very, very useful? Or you can even think in terms of gratitude of like, let me call someone who I did something very helpful. It was inspiring to me and just tell them

it tends to orient you towards optimism. It reminds you about the good parts of life. We are evolved

to notice much more troubles on the horizon than we are good things. That's just the survival

“imperative of our evolution. We notice the bad because that's what need we need to protect from.”

We don't notice the good as much. So it forces you to pay attention to the good. If you're doing it every day, you need material. You're actually going to have to be a little bit thoughtful to think about, okay, what? I can't keep saying the same thing. You shouldn't. Like, what's a new thing I can think about? What's an aspect of something I can think about? Oh, you know, and I'm grateful for today. That was left in the fridge. So I'm going to really enjoy having that

for lunch in the middle of the work day. Good enough, because when I have a good lunch in the middle of the work day, it makes me feel better about the day and I can look forward to it. Again, elaborate a little bit, but every single day, a gratitude exercise is free. It's incredibly effective, and it will really improve your emotional health. That's fantastic. And because it was so good, I would like another. Another is mindfulness. And I don't necessarily just mean meditation. I mean

paying attention to your experience, because that brings you to the present. For example, when people talk about work life balance, I discuss this in my new book, you know, people say to me, I added an hour of yoga, and I'm like, okay, yoga is great. But what the life part of the work life balance actually refers to is regular life. It refers to getting home and making dinner for the kids and going over their homework and putting them to bed and cooking, but we're often checked out

of regular life. We're preoccupied, we're rumonating, we're thinking about something else, and we're missing it. So mindfulness is being present. It's if you're cooking, take the time to take in the smells to experience that to chop the fuel and sensation of the things on the board. If you're helping your children with homework, take the time a moment to say to yourself, literally in your head like, right now, my kids are good. I'm sitting here with them. I'm doing

homework. These are precious moments. I know I'm going to miss them. Let me really remember what it smells like, what it feels like. I'm going to lean forward and hug them and smell them so I can

“remember that a moment of mindfulness will be very useful too. That was beautiful. I love this.”

This is fantastic. The fact that you said yes to come on to this thing, I am so happy because to be able, sometimes we're just having stories and we're talking and we're just shooting the shit. But when I've got somebody on the program that actually can make a difference in people's lives, that gets me going. What's the emotional injury you see most often that people pretend doesn't matter, but that actually changes the course of someone's life?

Look, failure is an example. We don't have a rejection that can matter. Failures can discourage somebody from pursuing a goal or a passion or a career that they might be quite suited to, but that initial failure can be enough to make people think I can't do this as opposed to like, oh, it's going to take work for me to do this, which are very different things. Some people have very different learning cups. Some people have, you know, start with a very kind of shallow learning

curve, but once they hit a certain point and then they really excel, you'll never find out

if you allow a failure to discourage you. Also, we tell people to learn from their failures and people

“are like, yes, how? And people know how to do that. And the only way to do that is to actually”

analyze what went wrong. But people don't want to analyze what went wrong because it's emotionally uncomfortable. They have to actually look through the disappointment again and experience that and then it becomes so critical. All of that stuff discourages them from doing a due diligence there, doing an accounting and realizing what went wrong and why that's important is because we don't make a thousand mistakes in life. We make a handful and then we repeat those in all kinds

of variations. So if you can figure out what one of your typical mistakes are, you can prevent a lot of failures. It's worth doing. It's unpleasant emotionally, but it's very worth doing. But people again don't know quite how to go about it or how to extract that information. It's such a worthwhile exercise, but it can really pivot people off course. And unnecessarily and it's such a shame because they wanted to do something but I guess I can't. I want to apply it for PhD programs in the U.S.

the first year I didn't get in anywhere. I wasn't even interviewed, which is the first step anywhere.

Now I should have said, "Oh, I take the hint. If they don't even want to interview you, this is not for you." But I don't think like that. My thought was like, "All right, they didn't reject me." You know who they've ejected? The pamphlet I sent. That's what got rejected. They didn't meet me. They didn't reject me. The materials were not sufficient. How do I improve the materials?

get around the obstacle, figure the solution, and then you try again. And that's what I wish

“people would do. Before we close, I just want to reiterate that that true words were never spoken.”

We do not make a thousand mistakes. We make a handful of mistakes over and over and over again.

And then if you get the support you need and you're intentional about it,

and you've had enough pain, you can decide to make the change on one of those five and your life gets a measureably better. Right? And thank you for bringing that up. I really

“appreciate it. Where can people learn more about your work and the resources you offer, Dr?”

Well, GuyWinch.com is my website that'sgywionch.com. My newest book is called Mind of the Grind,

How to Break Free when Work, High Jax, Your Life. And it's about all the psychological ways that work takes over your life that you don't realize. And it's full of very practical, easy solutions that you can do that will make a huge difference both at home and at work. Have you written a book yet about you just did the burnout book? Have you done

“the book that everybody wants to read about why their relationships fail?”

I have not. I do have a book about hardbreak, how to fix a broken heart. That's about hardbreak and pet loss. But I'm one of those people. I have ten books I want to write. It's a three year for your commitment. He's done you do it. So I have to choose. But it's certainly a book I would enjoy writing at some point. Good. And I'll read it. All right. Dr. The Pleasure was seriously all mine. It really was. Thank you for having me.