Running from Spies MI5 - P2

of keeping those in power accountable for their actions, I think one name will stand at the

“forefront of most. Australian born Julian Assange, we publish CIA reports all the time that”

our legitimate CIA reports that doesn't mean the CIA is telling the truth. Who founded the now infamous WikiLeaks in 2006. He would gain worldwide attention in 2010 when WikiLeaks would publish a series of leaks from US Army intelligence of footage from asteroids conducted by US Apache helicopters in 2007 during the Iraq insurgency. These airstrikes would claim the lives of several people including two journalists and civilians.

The crews can be heard laughing about some of the casualties.

In November of 2010, Sweden would issue an arrest warrant for Assange for questioning

in an ongoing investigation. After losing his appeal against the warrant, he would breach

“bail and take refuge in the Ecuadorian embassy in London.”

The security camera shows the rooms inside the Ecuadorian embassy where the WikiLeaks found a languished under diplomatic protection and therefore immunity from arrest. Yahoo News reported that while Assange was hold up for his fifth year in Ecuador's London embassy in 2017, the CIA and the Trump administration debated plans to kidnap and even kill the exiled journalist.

He would be granted asylum by Ecuador in 2012 under political grounds and fears of extradition

to the United States. However, this was later revoked in 2019 and British police were invited into the embassy and he would be arrested.

“That breaking news WikiLeaks found out Julian Assange arrested in London.”

London police have arrested WikiLeaks found out Julian Assange. Here you can see him being dragged out of the Ecuadorian embassy by British police. It was convicted on breach of bail in sentenced to 50 weeks in prison. Since 2019 has been held in Britain's maximum security prison Belmash ever since. As the United States continues their efforts to have an extradited, Julian Assange started his campaign

of whistleblowing almost a decade after an immigrant and David Schaler would go out against their own employer, M.I.5, a decision which would see them wanted and on the run. Because it has created such a big scandal when you have valued target. My name is Jack Lawrence. Welcome to Wanted. So any endeavoured had been privy to information from within M.I.5.

The information that concerned them, mistakes that had been made by the organisation, mistakes that had had catastrophic consequences. However, any says it was the mere fact that they were seemingly not willing to learn from these mistakes and things were essentially swept under the carpet which didn't sit well with her and David. She does also point out that there were plenty of very successful missions for M.I.5.

There were other operations that were very successful. And that's again part of the weird bit because you know the full story and then you see the little bit in the news, the national news and you're sitting there thinking, "This is a good result, but it's just a tip of the iceberg." And that again goes back to the play-to-class that comes down between the U.N. the real world,

psychologically, very old, watching that as well. So I'm not trying to just dis the intelligence agencies. A lot of very good people go and work for the best of intentions, and they do their best to try and protect the policies. It's just when things go wrong, they can go very badly wrong. And if there is blanket secrecy, that can be, that can cover up mistakes, so they don't learn and

they don't get better in the work of protecting the fellow citizens. That's it. I do. David will be moved from his position at T branch, focusing on the movements and actions

will be the head of the Libyan desk. It will be while working here, but here in Anney

“will be made aware, and witness three key cases being handled by the International Terrorism”

Section. The first being an illegal white app of Guardian Journalist Victoria

pertain. For reasons far too long-winded and complicated to go into here, but essentially the warrant that was granted in order to tap her phones was illegal. And M.I.5 did not obtain a court order in which to do so. The entire operation was built on flawed intelligence and bad judgment. Even once M.I.5 management learned of the issues, they would continue to violate the law. The second was a case of wrongful conviction against two Palestinian students

based in London, who were convicted of conspiracy to bomb the Israeli embassy in 1994. On July 26th 1994, on a sunny day in London, a smartly dressed woman said to be of Mediterranean appearance, would drive a grey-alty through police checkpoints at Kensington Gardens. London's main diplomatic quarter. She would park the vehicle next to the Israeli embassy. She was quickly picked up by security surveillance and a policemen from the diplomatic

protection call was sent to investigate. She would tell the officer she was visiting the flats next door, but was first going to buy some cigarettes down the high street. A few moments after she vanished from sight, the bomb exploded. Mr. Minister, you have just one comment at all on this London bombing. I haven't got many details, but I have did it, that it was a carbon and a boundary, one of our employees

at the embassy warned the police so happily nobody seems to be heard. Witnesses would say they saw debris rise 100 feet above the trees. 13 people were injured, but luckily no one was killed. A second bomb would go off, five miles north, shortly after midnight. In January of 1995, six Palestinians would be arrested. Only two would be convicted for conspiring to cause explosions and sentenced to 20 years in prison. According to Annie and

David, MI5 possessed information that was never released to the defense which they believed

would have likely changed the verdict of the jury. The two men who have always maintained their innocence would end up serving 15 years each in prison. However, the final case, the one that broke the camel's back, so to speak, the one that made them resign was a failed assassination attempt. You've spoken as well in the past about the Gaddafi, the failed assassination attempt

is another situation that was involving the MI5. You say that someone, come and remember the term you used, but an off the street person came in to suggest that they would like to get rid of Gaddafi, essentially. So this guy was a walk-in to the Chinesian Embassy in 1995, I think it was. He was a senior Libyan literary officer and he ended up being

“codenamed Tunler and he went to the embassy because that's why we always find the MI6 officer”

for James Bond. So he just literally walked in and said, "I have a clean plan." There were a few sort of international meetings across Europe and money was handed over in all the rest of it and then David, who was the Libyan desk at that point. So he was running the team that was investigating any threats about Libya or from Libya at that time. And he was called over to MI6 for an imperson briefing rather than on-skilled elephants by his

counterpart there. And he was briefed about this operation that was going to go ahead. And

he thought, "Oh, sounds a bit, you know, MI6 probably when happened, there always cannot

be these crap-brained, you know, James Bond type plots. Most of them don't happen." But he still reported it up the line, when he went back to MI5. And then a few weeks later there were a lot of serious reports coming across his desk saying that actually there had been an attack. It's a gone wrong, innocent people had died, including innocent vice-standards. And a good-of course, so I could be assassinated another day, which was in 2011 in the full

“glare of international media. But back in 1996, this was seen as super secret because it's”

illegal to assassinate from a head of state. And it turned out that this operation was illegal

for otherwise illegal activities from the front secretary if you're in my sick.

Though Gaddafi still described himself as a poor bedu-in and insisted on being interviewed in his tent, I asked him about stories that had been an attempt to kill him. Of course, it is true. And it happened, I guess, in the course, and Britain was behind this thing of assassination. So, every which way this was a quite an American phrase, "God damn plus the fuck." So, legalities and results. So, that was actually the case that

really pushed David over the edge. And we went through a number of discussions, trying to work out how best we could deal with it. We'd raised our concerns on the inside and we just told to follow orders. A number of our colleagues were leaving at the same time

because they had ethical concerns too. And we decided to try and make a difference,

which is why we went public because it was a whistle. So, David decides this cannot go unchallenged and not only should they leave, but also he's going to leak what he knows to the press.

“And in fact, I think he is the first words where let's go out to dinner because he didn't”

want to talk in our flat just in case because we, you know, in case we were bugged in. So, we went out to a random restaurant and had a conversation about this and both of us were pretty disillusioned at that point after all the stuff we'd seen going on. Not just the good-of-clothes, the straw that really comes back. It was a very hard discussion. I was particularly concerned about the implications for our family and our friends and I was right to be with four

out after with Jesus. And it took a while for the whole thing to build up anyway because David had to start a conversation with a journalist. And then there was a sort of very long courtship between the journalists and him because the journalists thought it might be in MI5's sting type before we find it. And David thought he might get short. So, that took a few months too, which of course ramped up the tension. But he kept me pretty much out of that because he wanted to protect

me. So, the less I knew, the less vulnerable I'd be. Actually, I was going to ask the question I thought, nurse, a stupid question, but then you mentioned there that David was concerned that

“he could get short. Did you genuinely feel for your lives like with what you were doing?”

Yes. At certain points we did. And we were right too, because there were certain instance where our lives were definitely at risk, it's ridiculous. I'm not saying, you know, MI5 or MI6 are outgunning for us, but there are other situations where people wanted information. And I suppose MI5 and MI6 probably would have had, would have known if there was something going on against you, but it wouldn't have been any loss to them if anything happened to you,

guys. Exactly. I mean, this is the ultimate irony, you know, if you're working on the inside and you're running an operation, no matter how tricky it is or how dangerous it is. Often, as the office for running your operation, you're the most protected person there. So, you are very little at risk. And as soon as course you step out of your organization, you'll figure it in. Leaving however was not a case of simply drop everything and run. It would take around eight

months before David and Annie would leave the country. And in that time, they spent their lives watching everything they did. And everything they said, especially in the confines of their own home. Did you guys resign one-stay that had already built this relationship with a journalist who was like, "Okay, yep, great. Let's run this story." And that's when you resign, so you had to keep up sort of appearances while this was going on. This courtship was going on. As far as I know,

he had made early contact at that point, but beyond that I know nothing. I just went out

“and got another job, paid a rent, let's push it, and that's what he did to. And it took a while.”

He also put out the story that he, well, it wasn't a story, it was true, he was writing novel, spy-type novel. Just in case any sort of word had got out that he might be talking to interesting people. So, yeah, that's pretty much all they know from that period apart from feeling pretty stressed and not being able to talk to any of our family or friends, honestly, which is horrible. So, and I'd imagine, as you said, while you're at home once you've resigned and you're just

at home, you're going about your normal life. He said, David, when he first announced sort of suggested to you, he took you out of the house because of the concern around bugging. I'm assuming

you were always probably very careful about what you spoke about, where you spoke about it,

you know, and never within the home, because just in case they did bug your house. Totally, yes. So, one of the interesting bit after we resigned was that, you know, we'd had a very

because you can really pan out with. And so, in that year, 10 months, I think, between the resignation

and 8, between resignation going on the run, we kept getting invited to leaving parties, where our friends were in my file, who were all leaving for the same reason, which is really weird. And it's all turned up, and even though until you weren't resigning, they would say, "How did you get out? How did you speak to you? How did you get next job?" So, it wasn't just us with the ethical concerns. A lot of our peer group had those, and wanted to leave, which is

“actually quite sad, because I think these organizations need people with strong ethical framework.”

Well, I just say with us a morals. Yeah, keep it on the right path. In terms of the trust and living without the sense of privacy, that actually came quite excoriating even then. And I think my family, my mother and my father certainly knew something was up, because I wouldn't talk about those things on the phone, because I was worried about the communications. And there were certain indications as well that they might be onto to us. Suddenly David's all boss, for example,

was ringing up saying, "Hey, let's meet our families like that." So the hackicles go up, you know, it's the animal instinct of this. Eight months of back and forth, in relationship building, cemented, David and the journalist would break the story. And it was time to leave.

I remember Dave coming home and went up dinner. And he just basically said, "This is going to

“break this weekend." So I think that was a Tuesday, and we went on the run on a Saturday,”

which was the 24th of July 1997. So what we thought would be a slower process, suddenly accelerated massively, and he had to go into the newspaper and to order to be re-fuing and write the stories and all that sort of stuff in those days. So I was left with the happy task of trying to organize the actual creation out of the UK, which I did. But it was tricky. There's a lot of running around London using red call boxes and taxis and things. Did you have a plan of where you were headed?

It was a tricky one, because it was a huge bank holiday weekend, and I think I got about the

last two tickets out of London on a flight. We had to fly out on a very, very early morning flight

to Amsterdam, and David and I met in a crappy hotel near Heathrow. That evening before. I set up at the four alarm clocks to make sure we got good flight. I remember, as well, when we were sitting in the plane and the tyres left the tarmac, it was like, "Thank God we're out of the country." Now we just have to look through these, you know, security at the other end, and that's stuff. Welcome to Amsterdam. I'm at a local time as approaching 545 p.m.

Keep your seatbelt fast, and turn around me. See this is where the seatbelt sign is switched off. Dors are open, and you're invited to this embark. Take all your personal belongs with you. Check into the seatbelt at the other end. You can see that in the open. So we landed there, and then we went on the run all the way around these strange little towns in the Netherlands. And then we, I tell all the way down to the far south west of France, then of course, France,

and they were worth it. So it was a month of literally being on the run, and we knew we were

“being hunted by the secret police, French ranch, and also by my wife. So it was a very surreal”

experience that we had, as Game Keep pretend, poacherous places to pray. The Metropolitan Police' special branch in the UK was a unit formed in 1883. It was tasked with combating the rising threat of Irish republican terrorism. Over the years, this unit was tasked with many aspects of counterterrorism, and undercover infiltrations into organised crime groups, as well as trade unions. It would later become the executive arm of MI5 in dealing

with espionage cases. And of course, tracking any endeavoured. You worked in that organisation, and you know the taxes that are used to find someone. So I suppose in a way that keeps you an upper hand in knowing what to do and what not to do. So what was your main, you know, okay, we cannot do this, we cannot do that, you know, I'm assuming no credit cards. Oh, no, absolutely. No 80 end, it was all that sort of stuff. No, it was cash only. If we had to

grab some money in a city, we would then leave that city and move as far as we could on some intercity train, as quickly as we could, so that they would miss us. Also, it sounds really crappy, but you know, simple disguises like, I am known for wearing a black, I've got blonde hair,

and that was also the days when you could check into her to tell her that having to give her

your passport. So you could use fake names and let's sort of stuff. I mean, now it would be exponentially harder. And let you go to the skills of someone that Edward Snowden will be on now, it would be incredibly hard. Edward Snowden is now, of course, a household name up there with the likes of Julian Assange when it comes to well-known whistleblowers. Taking you details, I'm now whistleblower who linked top secret documents by the government surveillance

of Americans. Edward Snowden, latest on the international standoff over NSA leader, Edward Snowden.

“What would you do about this? I think he's a total traitor, and I would deal with him harshly.”

He was born in June of 1983 in North Carolina, to parents Lonnie and Elizabeth. His family was in fact full of employees of the federal government, and in fact his own grandfather was a senior official at the FBI for many years, including being at the Pentagon on September 11. A computer whiz, Edward would attend a job fair in 2006 focused on intelligence agencies, and would be offered a position with a CIA.

And so began his intelligence career. In 2007 he was stationed in Geneva with diplomatic cover. While there he was widely considered the top technical cyber security expert, which saw him in fact hand peaked to support the president of the 2008 NATO summit in Romania. Edward would resign from the CIA in February of 2009, and would begin working for the computer company, Dell. Dell manages computer systems for multiple government agencies, including

the NSA. Snowden was assigned to an NSA air base facility near Tokyo and instructed top officials on how to protect themselves from Chinese hackers. He maintained his job with Dell until 2013 when he would quit his job after he says he witnesses the director of national intelligence lying under oath to Congress. What I wanted to see is if you could give me a yes or no answer to the question,

“does the NSA collect any type of data at all, on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?”

No, sir. Around February or April of the same year, Edward began working with a journalist at the

Guardian. And the first of the initial articles based on the leaked documents that he supplied

was published on June 5th. On the 23rd of the same month, Edward traveled to Russia from Tokyo where he'd been when the articles were published, with a plan to continue on to Cuba. However, the U.S. would cancel his passport in an attempt. He says to make him look like a Russian spy. Edward would apply for asylum in over 20 countries, four of which would offer him permanent asylum. However, there were no direct flights to any of these countries from Moscow,

and with the U.S. pressuring countries along the flight path to detain him, he would decide to seek asylum in Russia. Edward Snowden would manage to avoid being arrested by authorities and made his way to a country with no extra-dition treaty with the United States. Any and David, however, were running around Europe. Countries where their former colleagues could most certainly follow them. Even then, it was hard enough because we knew all the techniques

and because it had created such a big scandal, we knew a high target, high value targets. So it sounds crap to say that, you know, it's almost like self-aggrandizing because, you know, they're after us, but they really were. We call such a huge amount of embarrassment.

“Do you have any moments where you felt like you may get caught in any stage?”

Yes. The first one, being very early on actually, because we went on the run on, I think,

Saturday, the 24th, and David did his first big, medium interview on the Monday. There was news nights, which was a big BBC flagship news program, and they came over, I mean, rendezvous with them in Amsterdam, Portrait Hill. And the guy who did the interview, I think, of course, gratitude us out and said, this is where they are. So the next morning, very early, I was like, up, up, up, because go, we've got to go flat flat flat flat, and David was saying, oh, I don't think

we're going to find us quickly. And from what I heard afterwards, they got within an hour of us. So we've got to go, we've got to go, go, now, come, sort of thing. And sort of living like that, is really weird. Especially with a recovery friend who thinks that you're just being paranoid. You know, obviously, you're saying they were, they were after you special branches after you. My five is after you, you know, your high value targets. So when you say they were there,

they missed you by an hour. Do M5 have the power of arrest? I mean, what they do? They just

And I've just not officially have the power of arrest. They would have to work through police.

Local authorities. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't mean they would, anyway. Yes. So they would have to

“liais with the Dutch AIVD, I think it's called now. And then the AIVD would have to talk to the police”

in Dutchland, I'd call it. But I don't know, there were various other incidents as well, where they, I think they were almost caught up with us. But thankfully, I have a very fine-eat room paranoia, attend, attend me. I mean, I'm sure you're just looking at any out-of-place van, car, person, constantly looking over your shoulder and so you can't trust anyone at all. No. And also, just the idea that, you know, any, if you book anything online or

for a phone or whatever in those days, that hotel room or restaurant or whatever could be bugged, I mean, things like that, or even your handbag. So you want to meet and talk with someone on a pop bench. And this is all Moscow rules from John McCurray. And there can be, you know, these long distance transmitters that can pick up what you're saying. So it actually can drive you after. And when I'm saying this, it probably makes me sound like I'm mad. But I'm really not.

And then this is all 90s text. I mean, it was just more work-intensive, but yeah, it's much worse now. So Annie and David had a plan. The plan was to create enough of a media storm to create change, to make people ask questions and want answers. The problem was, they needed the media in which to do this. Little did they know they were just days away from a new story breaking that would not only take over the British media, but the world media. What we had planned was the idea that

we created a bit of a scandal. And therefore there would be a certain reaction, which would be let's gag David Cherra and let's gag the media to make sure further revelations can't come out.

“And we thought that would be good. And that's what happened in the first week, which was great.”

Because then of course, the National Media comes out saying you can't gag us with the free British press. And then Princess Diana died a week after we went public in that horrible accident in Paris, which wiped out any of the new story. So we were just, yeah, we just found ourselves lost. So we lost that media support in terms of pushing for an inquiry, pushing for a form of what the spies were doing. That was our game plan. And so we found ourselves lost in France.

Now, Annie and David face the decision of what to do next. And it would be Annie who would initially had home first, knowing full well she would be arrested. In fact, she would hand herself in.

And she could also be facing a lengthy prison sentence. I had always intended to because we left

with such a bank. You know, none of our family, none of our friends had any warning. So the first they all found out was the front pages of newspapers. And each of them had some particular horror story about the how they reacted to that. So I always knew that I'd have to get back. But at that point, I was just the girlfriend. And I flew back voluntarily, accompanied by a lawyer who was the head of Liberty, a lovely man called John Modern, Liberty is like the ACLU in the UK in the U.S.

And I turned myself in. So I got arrested. I got threatened. I was interviewed for hours,

“but I didn't send, I think. And I was held on police bail for six months. So I was allowed to go”

back and forth between where for David was hiding in the UK. But I still had to go back every month to answer that bill. So if it's some tricky few months, they basically held me over his head, like a sort of democles as a threat, you know, if you keep talking, we're going to do your girlfriend sort of thing. And also they did it to his brother and his two best friends, too, on Trump top charges. It was very messy. But after six months, they did drop it. They did drop

those cases. There was no case. That was a key point. It was just the threat to try and keep

David and his pen abroad. And let the story die down by down by down. And if I forget it, it's nothing more scandal and no more, called for all reform. There was some weird few months. David would also eventually return to the UK, but would not have his charges dropped. And in fact, had already spent time in prison in France prior to returning to the UK. First of all, when the grits tried to actually die in 1998 from Paris, and he was banged up for four

months then in a very notorious hellhole called La Fontaine Prison. And then the French said he was a whistleblower, and they did not extradite people for whistleblower. So we were free to live for another two years in Paris more openly, but still very surveyed. And then eventually after two years, he went back to face the music, to pay the prices debt to society. And went on trial and

record at any cost. He wasn't allowed to say anything or question, or you, there was actually a super injunction gagging the journalists who hadn't mentioned the Gaddafi plot because it might have influenced the jury during the six weeks term of the trial. So the media was not allowed to talk

“about the shaylor case, which was pretty big at that point. And the only thing I think was allowed”

to ask about in the court was the rules and regulations in my five or something like that. It was so surreal. So of course he was convicted, there was no defense. And the only time, either of us had a chance to say anything about why we've done what we've done was after he was convicted but not sentenced. And he was allowed a mitigation plea. And I was sort of logged into the witness stand to do that. And it trying to explain why we had done what we've done. So instead of

getting two years or 13 months, whatever judge planning, he got six months. I find that fascinating that they even bother having a jury try. When they don't allow any defense, it's like, so what is the point? It's, it almost, it's laughable. It's like, let's we're going to have a jury trial here and put you on trial, but you've got no defense. So I think I suppose that justice

has to be seen to be done. Yeah, it's not done. It's a key point. But yeah, it was incredibly hard

to go through that. I mean, six weeks. For some strange reason, I was allowed down in the well of the court. I mean, you think about your stereotypical British all bailing court, it's all going to be a paneling and galleries and the judges and wigs and lots of crap. And it was. It's all designed for a sort of theatre. And strangely, I was allowed down in the well of the court, sitting just behind to Dave and his team, which is unexpected. And right next to me, the bench is containing the MI5

officers. They're looking at me sideways, you know, all the way through six weeks of trial, it's horrible. I'm glad to be out of prison. I shouldn't have had to spend four months in prison. They're criticizing MI5. This is a very happy day for me in civil liberties, and they're very sad one. And embarrassing one for MI5 and the government. You've spent a number of years, paranoid and, you know, being followed. And it must have affected you psychologically.

He's saying, I'm not. Yeah. Yeah. You'd have to be surely. I mean, you'd be on the run for years. Your phones are tapped because it's terrifying. MI5, take you at any minute. I mean, it must affect you surely, honey. Of course it does. Yes. And after Dave had to pay his debt to society, he was a free man in 2003. I mean, both of us came out of what's been seven years

“office was blowing bloody case. So it was like, you come up for air suddenly surface. And what now?”

And it became very difficult. So one, we wrote the book about the whole thing. And this is a really old book. And I'm not sure if I was a bandit. Yes. And that took a year and a half to get cleared by MI5. And we got involved in, this is of course the height of the run into the Iraq war, post nine and haven't, all that sort of thing. So we got very involved in the stock of the war issues and campaigning around there. But there's still, well, well, where now, what can we do? You know, we know

how the big organization is ever going to be employers. How do you rebuild the life like that? So David went down at a certain path and I chose a little one, which is why we separated 2006. And after I had taken that other path and got very much into a lot of campaigning and met a lot of very interesting people, most notably activists actually. So I sort of ended up diving head

first into the sort of European activist scene. How do you mean hackers? No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yep. Which I found fascinating because it related to a lot of what I'd known, but also related

“to a lot of unfortunately wanted to learn. And that's what I've been doing ever since. So I think”

one that was good because it gave me a certain backup in terms of tech security and help with paranoid. And two, it means that I can do something moving forward, but I think will help a lot of other people. Just trying to explain what the tech situation is and how vulnerable people can be. Both, you know, individually, familiarly, community, society, democratically, even to try and take stuff forward. Learn from the old mistakes, learn from what is possible and what was possible.

And then my certain rights are so damn important to all of this if you want to take a world forward. So that's how I survive with that process.

Obviously, you know, when you guys first left and you went down the track of whistleblowing,

you had this idea of wanting to, you know, bring the attention to what was going on behind the scenes and the mistakes that were made and issues that were going on within these organizations. Do you think you accomplished what you set out to achieve if you did have something in mind to achieve? No, I think it's basically a concept. Yeah. Partly, if it was a bad timing,

I mean, every snowman with 29 when he went public as well. So there's a certain energy there.

What you don't necessarily realise is that the monolithic sort of bureaucracy will grind on and on, whereas you're only one person or two people or whatever or a few people or activists and activists group. So it's very difficult to try and keep going or try and find new people who will take it forward and keep going to make that change. I don't understand overly pessimistic.

“I think that you can shift the discussion and the awareness and you kind of form the”

ongoing and future debates, which is what I still try and do. But in terms of creating a bit of a scandal and having a big change, that didn't happen. And I'm really regretful of that. And what I find very distressing is, of course, what's happening with the new updated proposed official secret site because that's going to hit it worse and make it harder. What I found very interesting though, I mean, I used to write and speak, um, I'm very unspoken about the whole

week in these cases. Julian's song is not a whistleblower, he's a high-tech publisher and a award-winning journalist, by the way, and Australia should be defending him. But so then we had the snowman stuff and he was the one who rescued snowman from Hong Kong and that's even a decade ago. And then we had the terror case, you know, the guy, uh, military guy in America that was releasing information, uh, a couple of weeks ago, who's been arrested. And, um, he was just confirming all sorts

of horrors that the American government is still doing and war crimes and that sort of thing. But he was using not the old mainstream media and not WikiLeaks. He was using social media to spread the word, not obvious open social media. I think it was discord it started out and then it started tweeting. So there are evolutions and various ways that people on the inside can get information out. But the risk is still the same. So the fact that despite all the hideous previous examples,

and Snowden came out straight after the Chelsea Manning case and knew the risks of the still good did what he did, um, others have come out of immediately after other hideous whistleblower in cases and the penalties face. Um, and people still will do it. There is a drive for freedom

“and a drive for human rights. I think in most these were people that we all need to remember.”

And if people on the inside come out and try and do something like that, they're doing it for a damn good reason and they need all the support they can get rather than believing the crap that it's in the media, you know, the disinformation, the lies that might be spread about them. It's not about the personalities, but the principles that stake and that is what everyone should

always remember. And if we don't stand up for the principles that stake, we will end up in some

hideous, detalitarian, police state or, you know, whatever, or we will lose our basic freedoms. And that is the key point I would like your lessons to take away tonight. During the course of my chat, you may notice at certain points Annie was very careful about what she said and even caught herself at one stage. Obviously, she still has to remain

“very careful with what she says, but I didn't realise just how careful until she said this.”

So I'm sitting here in front of my computer, which is open source, which I hope you say, but probably not, with my computer covered, but I'm absolutely certain that my phone is compromised. So I do my interview staff and my media staff via this phone. But yeah, I have no concept that I have privacy here now talking to you. So you're of the, you're of the absolute positivity that your phone is currently

being watched by somebody, or it's, you know, it's under surveillance of stuff for. All of our phones are. Right. But I imagine you're, yours, you're maybe more than mine. Or maybe mine, maybe mine's now going to be more focused on.

I want to say a huge thank you of course to Annie for coming on and telling me her incredible

story. She has a book out, called The Privacy Mission, achieving ethical data for our lives online, the details of which and a link to which you can find in the show notes of this episode. I've course want to thank all of our guests on season one of Wanted and to you for listening to our first season. If you enjoyed the show, I would love it if you would leave us a rating and a review to help other people find the show and help people directly find the show by telling them

about it. To your friends, family, people in the next year in the car just yell, "Listen,

already heard about it, we have another show called One Minute Remaining Stories From The Inmates,

“where I interview men and women incarcerated across United States for various crimes. There's”

over 100 episodes for you to binge right now and you can check it out wherever you're listening

to Wanted right now. So until next time, stay out of trouble. And if you do end up on the run,

you know who to call. I'm a warrior of the soul before the end of the plan to the home,

“but I know how long is myself along the way. What's gone is gone? What's past is past?”

Let me live with lost in the past.