Can We Repair After a 25 Year Affair?

Each episode of where should we begin is a one-time counseling session for the purposes

“of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed,”

but their voices and their stories are real. They met for the first time on the day of their engagement. They are in a ranged marriage. They had been promised to each other as teenagers. They came to the United States together to hope for the American dream,

which they got to experience. And in the midst of this, lives a 25-year affair. I lied to her many times hiding when she found out it was really painful.

Sometimes I wish I never found out.

“The fact that so many times he denied and he was caught and he was not honest,”

is very disturbing to me. They are outstanding members of their community. They have a large family and I'm mentioning all of this because to understand the role of the affair is to understand its ripple effects on all these other relationships. And the questions of secrecy and transparency need to be mapped against this whole backdrop.

The role of the therapist is to meet people where they are at and to accompany them. Wherever they choose to go, because they are the only ones who will live with the consequences of their decisions. In this couple, the woman very clearly says to us, "I want this to work. I am not coming here for you to help me leave.

It is a commitment for life. The affair is over and they want to recover from it or to continue from it. Maybe what I would consider is after an arranged marriage this time they can have a chosen marriage. When you have an arranged marriage like the one you had, what were the ideals, the ambitions that you brought with you about marriage?

What is the conception of what marriage is about? It is about staying together for life. The worst is not even an option like that, not something that was acceptable. So it is one time enterprise with no exit and the commitment is for life. The reason I ask is because if that is the frame, then the way you deal with crisis is very

different than if you think you have a way out. I mean, it is not like now, it is not acceptable within our community, not in our immediate families. There have been doors and people are more open to the idea of separating, but still thinking about the families and the culture and the ties that you make within a marriage, it is hard

to break, not just two spouses getting a part that the whole family is falling apart, marriage is not between individuals, our marriage is between two families, and even more, and even more, you want to say something. There were no choices but to listen to the parents, and this is going on for centuries, the way it was.

So we had to listen and we have to go with their decision, that is how the normal life was. There is another piece that was part of the normal life. I am sure nobody went to see a therapist.

No, but I think we are the first thing.

“What is that like for you to be sitting here right now?”

The way that this happened, the betrayal that happened is painful, but honestly, having a therapist and listening to the therapist, it opens our eyes, so I am blessed that I listen to you and some other part, it opened my eyes, that my mistakes causes so much to hurt other

That was surprising to you.

“It was a surprise for me how much pain I cost.”

I lied to her many times hiding, but when she found out it was really painful, and I wish I would have stopped and not hurting it anymore. So that's my fault and I caused it, and I hope I can heal her moving forward. That's all I, whatever you can ask, I can just.

I'm basically going to ask you to tell me a little bit what happens, which can be told in

many different ways. But you can just give me the basics. We are going to meet only once, so I don't need to know every detail.

“Yeah, so the person who he was engaged with was my cousin, same age?”

No, she's about 15, 18 years younger together and a lot younger to me. She was somebody who we supported a lot because she grew up without a father, and she's my aunt's daughter, so when she came to America, I took her as a little sister, helped her get her everything and got her job, and helped her get situated somehow, the other she was living with us, and I could see she was very manipulative, even then, like she

was lacking something that she was trying to find from any man that she met. So I saw little signs of him gravitating towards her even then, like she needs a license, but only he can go and help her, she needs a car, only he wants to go help her, whatever she needed, he would run and do it for her, and so she had met somebody who she was about to get married around it was in the early 2000s.

So this is a story of how many years, 25 years, and it kind of tried to help her with setting up a business with the man she was marrying, and they started meeting alone, trying to discuss the business plans and slowly trying to get closer, I guess during that time. So one time it was the valley and we had a party going on, and they both inch you up, and it was late, trying to find him, and he couldn't locate him, and then they both arrived,

I asked her, "Oh, what took you so long, where were you?" And she said, "Oh, I went to celebrate the valley, and that was it." But then when I came home, something in my heart told me, something was in right, so I confronted him that day, and he acknowledged that he was with her, and they were in the parking lot talking about the new business ventures that she was opening, then nothing else, and I was like,

"Why couldn't you talk about that ventures in front of everybody, what was so secretive?"

And I still have that question which I never got the answer for, and I'm sorry that

they never discussed business, I don't know what was it, but I was ready to leave the house that they stopped me, like there's nothing, you don't trust me, you don't believe me, there's nothing, there's nothing, I stayed, and ever since, and I told her that it was 25 years ago, 25 years ago, and I, for 25 years, you lived with a second sense, yes, yes, from that day on, I told her, "To get out of my life, to get out of my house, that you're not welcome to my house anymore,

to leave." A little bit, I know that she never went away from his life, and I always had some suspicion, and me asked you, the suspicion was because of how he behaved towards you, the suspicion was because of how he would have his mysterious disappearances. No, they were disappeared, but I knew he had some contact with her, something within me said, "Something's not right, and I used to have dreams about him marrying her,

and I woke up and I told him all this, and he would just brush it off, never even talk about it,

and a few times I got him texting her, and then he would say, "Oh, it was just because I wanted to

“have wish her happy birthday. Why do you have to wish her happy birthday? You don't even remember”

your sister's birthday, why would you remember her birthday?" And then I still kept on giving him

I suggest one reason, because sometimes, when you know, you have to deal with the consequences

of knowing, so sometimes people live with a sense, and they never translate that sense into knowing.

Because knowing would demand that they take action, and it sometimes is an action they don't want to take.

“It's possible, sometimes I wish I never found out. It's like, how do I deal with the consequences?”

So that strange thought is actually very common. If I don't know why we should know, and when I know, sometimes I wish I didn't know. Because knowing now puts me in a situation, where I am not just dealing with how he betrays me, but I'm wondering if I'm betraying myself. That's true. People often obsessed with the idea of how could you live for so long and not ask and not know or believe,

and it's because there is something really, very sometimes dark and complicated in the idea that sensing is still better than having the truth. Because once you have the truth,

“you have to respond to it. Because once you have the truth, you can't say I asked and he denied.”

Whatever he did is no longer determining of my response, only my integrity. My choices, however compromising and imperfect, they may be, and it's me vis-à-vis myself. As long as we are in the sensing zone, it's me and you. Once we are in the truth zone, it's me and me. But I also feel like I kind of am relieved. I'm not tracing him anymore. I'm not worried

who he's talking to anymore. I was always like who's he texting? Why is he texting? Why is he not sleeping?

Why is he late? So this was very active. At least in my mind, I don't know how active he was or know, but for me everything was as special. He moved. I would be like, where are you going? He's in the bathroom. I'm like, oh, does he have his phone with him? This is how I lived. For me, every minute was torture. But at least now, I don't care. You want to talk to her, go talk to her. I really don't care anymore.

“Because it's kind of now out, and I know what the truth is. The lies were really bothering me,”

more than his relationship. The fact that so many times he denied, and he was caught, and he was not honest, is very disturbing to me. So what's it like for you when you hear this? And I mean, do you visualize it when she describes it? Are you back in the scene? Yes, obviously she got hurt because of my lies, and I stayed in touch. I texted three, four times, say, week, and that was an issue because I was hiding it from her, because of my lies, she got hurt,

and that's also my biggest regret that why did I go that far? We've said this a couple of times now, that it was very shocking to you to see your wife being so hurt. Why then? Why did that moment suddenly make you realize that your behavior was so hurtful? When for 25 years she is asking you, what's up? And you were so dissociated in the lie that you couldn't imagine that it could hurt her?

First of all, thinking about in so many years that she saw me texting, I didn't listen to all that.

That this person is not just with you, this person have done this to other people as well. I ignored it. This woman has seduced her the man? Is that the idea? Yes, yes, but I felt comfortable with her and our relationship moved on, but to answer your question, I knew that I'm lying to her, but I didn't know the trauma situation that my

The trauma that I caused, that I lost her trust and it's very hard to gain it back.

And for me, the person always showed me that I am a wanted person. She liked me being around,

she has done the same thing to other people as well, but I felt for it. So my regret is that I fell to the seduction of my mistress and that other people saw it

“from afar, whereas I let it rap me. Yes. And why do you think you were more susceptible?”

My biggest reason was to help her out and that was my soft fight. I mean, I have done that

with other people in my life as well, but this was the one that I went too far.

And what is it about being a sugar dad? That is so funny. I don't know what's the meaning of sugar dad. You can guess. It's a word that you don't use, but I'm going to do it to you. Sugar dad is, I don't know if I'm right to support someone in their life.

No, because you can be generous to a lot of people. That's not the point.

“Did you see her as powerful, powerful as in seductive?”

Yeah, I can say that, yes. And so my question to you is, what made you susceptible to her charm, her seductions, her brutalness, her neediness, her reliance on you. There's a paternal relationship here and she lost her daddy young and you come very kind. What made you susceptible? This woman did not do something to you that you did not want done to you. It was seductive way of talking and she wanted something, it attracted me towards the person.

We talked about her power of seduction and his power of being paternal, giving, but in an eroticized context so that he wasn't just extracting. He was giving in return and that made the relationship in his eyes more honorable. At the same time he also realizes that he wasn't that special. He was one of many and that this was her way of connecting, of bringing together something very erotic and something very Nobel. As he begins to unravel this script, he becomes more aware

of how it was a combination for him of feeling flattered and manipulated, which is one of the ways that the rapture begins to dissolve and that's where the dissociation cracks open. We have to take a brief break, stay with us. Support for ways should we begin comes from Shopify. The early days of starting a business are equal parts exciting and terrifying. It's a big risk but it's one worth taking as long as you have the right tools and if e-commerce is part of your new

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And that's my regret is how I did this for so long.

“So here's the thing. When you feel bad about what you've done,”

when you regret, when you have remorse, when you feel guilty, sometimes it prevents you from actually understanding why you did it. Because you feel so bad about it, that the last thing you want to do is actually think about why you did it. That's true. So this question about why you were so susceptible. Who were you with her? What parts of you what she appealing to? Is it okay that I'm asking him these questions? Oh, you thought the questions?

I was so quickly and I was having the answer. And the reason I'm asking it is because the temptation is sometimes to want to find out the facts of the affair. What you did when you saw her where you went, which would help. It doesn't really help us to know the facts doesn't really help us. The meaning of it is what will help. Not just what you did, but what it meant. And because you feel so bad about what it did, you're not really able to ask yourself,

what was this like for me? I'm not a guy who usually does stuff like that. That's not who I am. I don't particularly think of myself as a liar. And yet here, I found myself lying consistently with this strange notion that if I lie and she doesn't know, then it won't hurt. Yes, true. Our whole family respects him so much. He's looked upon as sincere, helpful, right? Everything you can imagine, my family loves him more than me for everything he's done for

everybody. Who knows what? The whole system is involved now? No, no, no, no. I'm very reluctant to talk to and like only a few people. Because they would be so mad at him that they would kill. And I don't, if I'm staying with him, my biggest thing is I don't want him to look upon down or to me be felt sorry for. People look up to us like we have the perfect life, the perfect home, the perfect family, the perfect guard, the perfect house, the perfect beach house, the perfect vacation.

We have everything anybody wants. I don't want that to go away if we are living together,

I don't want people to know because once they see that it's as if it will subsume everything else.

The fact that he cheated is more important than all the other things that he has done and they will think ill of him and they will pity me that I had no choice or that I made the unfortunate choice to stay with this person and they will disrespect him and they will disrespect me. And that is a very layered, complex dilemma that so many people face at that moment. Because now she is holding the secret of his secret. And this is an aspect of the recovery process that is not so

known. When we collapse it all into yes or no on or off, we bypass some of the more complicated, deeper decisions that we make in the process of this and yet they are so important and so determining for the life afterwards. So he's a very helpful person. He's helped many people in his life.

“And that's I think a biggest problem that he fell into with her. I think him”

helping, helping, helping and trying to give her the comfort of what she is missing him.

I don't know. Every celebration felt like it was a third or a week after my granddaughter was born.

He went and then he met her a week after my dad passed. He went and then he met her. What's that for? And ever since I just cannot, I cannot accept why would he do this to me. We have a perfect life, a good life, everything, a torture, a little torture, I don't know why. I hear you, I hear you, and I'm not sure that he's going to be able to answer you right away. I'm not sure he knows. But if you say this is not the person that everybody knows, then there's another part of this

person that has lived here, separate from the rest of you that is dissociated. That doesn't mean it's okay. It just says there is this outstanding citizen that everybody had miles that is revered in the community that has a perfect life that wants to be respected, etc. etc. And La Arcote next to it is this very same person who is risking it all, basically. So at this moment you're revisiting the scene of the crime all the time in this kind of room in dating way and you are revisiting

your reaction to what it felt like to finally see the effect that you'll behave you had on her.

And each of you is just replaying those two scenes. They're very, very powerful and painful,

but they're holding you stuck. Instead of saying what I did to her, what I did to her,

“not because you shouldn't, but in addition you have to ask yourself what was this about for me.”

And that cannot just be because she was seductive and because she has charms. What does it mean to be a very respected upright citizen who goes and is naughty on the other side? If we can get you a little bit unstuck from these two positions because if she tells the story you're looking into the emptiness, you're bracing yourself, you're waiting for it to end. You are not relating to her, you are not responding, you are not putting your hand on her,

you're not making her feel better, you're not telling her I'm here with you now. You're just sitting

“there like a chastised man boy and waiting for it to stop. Yes that's how we are. Yeah it's not”

going to be good. Turn to her. Tell her don't tell me the same story again. You don't have to revisit it. We both know it. Join her. Help her. I get it, yes. I want you to remove those pillows and then take her hand and reach out. Yes. If you go into your corner, you freeze and you wait until the shower passes, you're going to really damage your relationship. Not that it hasn't been damaged yet but this will not give you the repair and the return and the reconnection that you want.

"I don't believe you are. I'm not going to let you put your hand on me if I don't know if it's going

“to stay. It's been wandering for a long time." So then you have to be steady and not be instantly”

toward it because she didn't welcome you with open arms. Do you think you can do that? I can do that. And there you go. He says, "Doing and saying is two different things. What would you want in this moment, for example, when you were re-telling the whole of retail, there's so many times now that I don't expect anything from him at

this point because I mean in the beginning I was giving him the benefit of doubt that I was opening

up to him. I was trying to accept him even with what he's done and I kind of felt like I'm still doing the effort. He's not putting any effort in. I'm looking for a therapist. I'm trying to put things together. I'm trying to say, "Kill, let's go somewhere. I'm trying to

“make that connection and his life is the same." He's always like the time will be later.”

Everything will be okay. Everything will be okay. That's his doctrine. That's your way of

trying to say we'll get through it and whatever happens will happen. You're okay with the

fight, stay with you or not stay with you or if I choose to go or whatever your decision is, I would you believe that? I don't know. Obviously he doesn't want me to go but he doesn't say, "No, that cannot happen. You have to stay." He's like, "Whatever you decide, it's fine with me. I'll support you either way. I'm not going back to her but I don't want you to be stuck with me."

“And that's because you don't think you have any right to ask for anything. You've kind of used up”

your quota. Obviously right. I am in a position right now that I cannot ask what I want because of what I did but I'm hoping. In the very beginning when I found out I was actually aroused by having him again and getting him back promises that we're going to have a good life. This that that and we had some good times. Even then I was making the effort all the time. Not him. Maybe he was ashamed, maybe he was stuck, whatever, but I tried but then that he

still stuck or he's still ashamed or he's still in love. I don't know. But he's still not there. I don't feel his presence still. And I hear you all the times saying the three or four marriages in everybody's life and most of the time it's at the same person. And I feel like okay I can get remarried to him again but should I? Is it again the right person to get remarried too? I'm not there yet.

She's talking to me in this moment and she refers to something that she heard me say. In a talk where I said that today in the West many people are going to have two or three adult relationships or marriages in their lifetime and some of us will do it with the same person. And so when there is an affair it sometimes spells the end of that marriage and then the question opens itself up that says would you like to have another one with each other? And that has been a

very hopeful thing for her because it gives her a dignified way to reengage with him on a new relationship on a new marriage. This is only six months. I know you think that's an eternity but you can give it a stretch more. But that is a decision that only you can make. But the decision doesn't just come from inside. The decision comes from what you are creating together now. So when you say I don't feel like I can ask for anything right now I've committed

What your wife wants to feel more than anything from you is that you actually do want her.

Obviously yes. But don't say that to me. And when I say I want her it's not just sexually but it can be included. And that's what she's telling you. I don't feel he really is there. I don't feel he really wants me. The whole us. And you're going to need to convince her of that because enough fair and especially enough fair of 25 years like that is a fundamental devaluation of my importance. The lies, the duplicity, the deception, the betrayal, all of that

“basically said I'm not that important. And so you need to convince her if that is indeed what you”

want of her value. The first thing is your regret you gained. But after that it's your affirming I will fight for this. So I'm scared of that because I did that to her. And as you mentioned that I'm in my shame or I feel that guilt. But I get it. And I'll fight for it. And it's been that situation that if I hug her later on she said I don't need your hug. And then what do you say? You need. I retreat. And so in the new scenario what would you do? I'll double hug a triple hug.

And I don't know. That's right. You don't know. We always have

“things that she said you don't care about me. You don't love me. Says who? My wife. But I don't have”

the answer for it. What don't have the answer for? For if I care about you and meaning I don't know. She wants to know a specific way to tell if I care about her. How did you love me? In that sense? Yes. Did you ever care for me? And I admitted okay based on I don't have any way to explain that I do care about you. I gave up and I said probably that's right. I don't care about you. Oh, you capitulate? Yes, I said that.

So here's how I understand this question. You have kids, you have your siblings, you have your nephews, your uncles, your aunt, your family, your community, your businesses, etc. I want to protect all of this. And I want to protect your reputation. Partly for you and partly for myself. Because I don't want to feel that when I stay with you, I have everybody looking down at you and wondering, you know, what she's doing with her. I agree with that, I know.

In the midst of all these reasons that are beyond her, that are maintaining the entire social network is a very clear flicker that says, but do you care about me? Not just everything we build together, not just a scaffolding of our relationship, but the absolute connection between

“you and I. That's what she wants to know. Whether you love the other woman or you didn't,”

whether you can love two women, make love to two women, all of that. She will have to absorb all of this, you know. Is there a little corner just that makes me special for you? Arrange another range. I'm sure there's plenty of things that you appreciate about each other. That's what she needs to hear. Compliment her with everything you can tell her that you appreciate about her. And if she's a smarter she is, she knows that you did it with the other person.

Because with the other person you felt free, with the other woman you felt, I don't have to worry

about being criticized, she's not going to pick a fight with me. I'm never doing anything wrong.

I'm actually really loose, I'm playful, I'm alive, I'm sexy, I'm all of these things. I watch she would like is for you to have some of this with her.

She was the wife, he was the husband, she was the mother, he was the father, she was the daughter in

“low, he was the son in low, and this roles were often it. In the transition is from being in a role to”

being really chosen as a person, from it to iron down. And that's really what she needs to know. Am I more than just the person who fulfilled a role for you? Am I that person where you're freedom and your free choice also directed itself to? We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. I have asked him, I've asked him back, he still does the best work. He took her to a hotel,

when did you book a hotel for me? Never, ever. We've married for four years and it's a planned

one thing for me, never, but as he knows how to because he did it for her. So he knows how to please people, it's not like he doesn't know how to do it. If he knows how to play and the question is where is play between the two of you? Is that a part of your relationship and often in the middle of a revelation of an affair like that, either people completely split or they, as you described before, suddenly experience a sense of

“arousal and passion and intensity that they haven't felt in years?”

I did feel that in the beginning, but then I lost it because I didn't see it from him. So, and I still don't see it from him, he's still tight, just trying to get through it. It's not the point you, to not make you angry. But that may have happened throughout your marriage. That is not new. Oh, so it was about not that you know how to play, but that you don't play in the family.

You don't play in your marriage, and you never have. You created a demarcation.

Here I do the responsible stuff. There I do the fun and playful stuff. Here I'm tight, there I'm loose. Here I do the fearful husband. There I do the bold lover. Yes, so, through after the years, my wife, she tried to do her duty for the intimate portion of that because I wanted it. I enjoy that intimate portion of our life. But for some reason, I felt that she doesn't enjoy that portion, and I don't want to be playful if she doesn't want

me that way. And you think she was just doing her wife's duty? It was doing her duty, but not enjoying it. Enjoy it.

“That's how good I, when I know he has somebody else in his life throughout all the years throughout.”

So, 25 years? I know you're lying to me. I know you're bad one other life. How could I, but I was still doing my wife's duty? Yeah, and sometimes even just reaching out to her on her side of the bed,

she always thought that maybe I need something from her that I came on that side.

But apart from sex, is it anything else that we do that we should enjoy together? That was your priority. That's what I'm saying. You've never booked a hotel for me. You've never taken me somewhere for dinner. I have done. I have planned everything. But he has never taken the effort to make me feel wanted, nothing. The sentence about how he has never booked a hotel room for the two of them,

but he took his mistress to the hotel, could appear as petty. But in fact, this statement of jealousy, even of competitiveness, that lurks behind the anger, is very, very important.

from the breach of trust that took place as a wife. This is not just an attachment injury.

This is, we are part of a romantic story. And in that story, I want to feel that I'm your chosen one too.

“From a recovery point of view, the jealousy is very important because it is an energy that is”

driving that wants something. And it actually is a counterforce to the collapse that sometimes can be experienced when one is just purely a victim of rejection and rejection. This may sound a little strange, but I knew she understood it. I knew she felt it. I understand that you went to play elsewhere. And now, if you are to be with me, I want to be that playmate with you. And that is an invitation and that is a very different way of redefining the relationship.

You're right on that. I'm guilty for that. She is a good planner, wherever she we go. She plans. Yeah, but that's. Yeah. Doesn't matter. You know, if people could bring 10% of their initiatives and imagination that they bring to their affairs, into their marriages, their marriages would be doing a lot better. Yes. So there's a complacency. I don't have to. She's a better planner. And you have a dance here. Yes. For me to enjoy it,

I need to know that you're enjoying it too. And you're into it. It's too waiting. It's not just for me. But for me to be not just doing my duty. I like to know that you're actually into me and that you

want me. And that involves certain romance in which you have actually never done. So indeed,

you are right to think that I'm not so interested. And indeed, you are right to think that I am not really making the effort to let you know that I really want to connect with you. And you don't feel wanted by him and he didn't necessarily feel wanted by you. And there are loads of reasons how one finds oneself in that place, but this isn't easy door. People don't have a 25-year affair with someone who they wonder if they want them. That's taken care of. And how you let each other know

that that's not the case. Now is an invitation for both of you. Every time you think I don't have to make a reservation because she's a better planner, you are adding another brick to the marital graveyard. That might be one of the reasons because she is very particular about what she want. It doesn't matter. You tell her I did it for us. I did it what the way I thought it would be nice be gracious. Okay, if you know me, the point, no, no, this is the thing. No, don't go.

Because he's going to tell you, why bother doing anything? You're so particular. You know exactly the way you want it. If I do it my way, you're not going to appreciate it. And then you're going to tell him, you know me so well, why don't you know exactly what to do that would be that what I like.

“And then what you will have is him on strike and you complaining. If he knows me, right?”

He knows me. No, he doesn't work this way. No, he doesn't. He actually does. But he should at least try. But he should try and you need to tell him, please try out big gracious. I will appreciate it. I will just, I will just, I will just, I will just. I understand it's each of you is going to have to tell the other. I will do my part. You cannot not do it because she's not, she's going to not be happy about it no matter what.

I, I, I, I listen to you and I don't care if she got upset going forward. You know, okay,

so you know what you made me think about since you never dated before you got married.

“Obviously. I think you need to date. This is what you're both talking about.”

You take each other out on dates. But maybe he needs to date me because I have done that. No, but you can't. If you go and you tell him, I've done this our entire marriage. It's always been me. It's maybe totally true, but it's not productive. But if you are considering putting your first marriage to rest and exploring whether there's a second marriage that you want to have with each other and do it not from a place of resentment and bitterness. But really,

but the meaning that we give to it will determine what we can become. And that's a very different

“way to enter into this. Definitely yes. Yes, because I feel like I have tried and done, but he”

hasn't and he doesn't take the steps to initiate anything again. So for me, I'm kind of like giving up at this point. Like why should I keep on doing it? Maybe I should accept it and move on.

And I shouldn't have to ask for connection or ask for love for ask for anything. Maybe we can still

live together and live our own lives and still one of us dies and that's going to be the end of

“it. You know what? It could be an option, but it's not yours. Because it's not what you really”

want. And it's not yet. I don't. And it's not necessarily what he really wants either.

I want to tell you that I'm tired of living a double life.

And my commitment is to you. And if you allow me to keep it that way, I'm ready for it. And I want to give you a piece of a mind that what I did in the past, I'm not going to do it in the

“future. And I am truthful to you. So I am looking forward, as Esther said, you can remedi,”

and I want you to feel that way. I'm sorry I realized it very late, but what took you so long to realize it? Why do you realize it now? There's my question. I'm not doing it for the show or anything or to show other people. I love the way we used to laugh and connect with each other that connection has broken, but I can try my best and look forward to connect with you and no matter what it takes,

I'm there for you. I don't want we to pun arguing and fighting with each other. Let's start the connection as this moment. Every affair will redefine a relationship or in this case a marriage, but every relationship will determine what the impact of the affair will be. This is their crossroads. Where should we begin with Esther Purrell is produced by Magnificent Noise,

or part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibli, Sabrina Farhy, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt, original music, an additional production by Paul Schneider, and the executive producers of where should we begin, our Esther Purrell and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jackson.