"Gaucho" – Steely Dan

Today we're listening to a monument to Perfect.

[MUSIC] The most pristine engineering.

“Some of the greatest studio musicians to ever live.”

As to play, take after take after grueling take until they got it absolutely perfect. And even then, sometimes it wasn't perfect enough. So much so, that the engineer of this album had to invent a machine to play it the way that the band wanted it.

After all was said and done, we got a masterpiece, we really did. But it came at our cost. We didn't get another steely Dan out of them for another 20 years. Today we're listening to Goucher. [MUSIC]

And I'm Peter Martin, and you're listening to The Build Your podcast. Music, Explore. Explore, brush you today by openstudio. Go to OpenStudio.js.com for out. Your jazz lesson needs Peter.

I just went through the full extent of my vocal range for that intro. A lot of all, a lot of all, a lot of all, a lot of all. A lot of all, a lot of all, a lot of all. A lot of all, a lot of all, a lot of all, a lot of all. Yes.

“Well, I've got something special for you today.”

Are you ready for me? Yeah, we're jumping right in my frown. Okay, what do you got? [MUSIC] Adam, let me take you to a magnificent and mythical place.

A place where the highway finally ends.

A place where the sun melts into the Pacific. A little place called Southern Cali. The San Gabriel Mountains in the distance. The San Fernando Valley, sprawling up a little palm trees. I can see, I get the golden haze.

The Sunset strip, Hollywood. There's hot Santa Anna winds blowing in from the desert. The whole city shimmering like a promise it may or may not keep. It's 1980, it's late. We'll hit up one of those off-brand LA car rental spots.

You don't have the kind, they only take debit cards, 'cause that's all we've got. But we've got taste. We'll bring a little curse, bowser, and then. ♪ Drive west on sunset to the sea ♪

♪ Turn that jungle music down ♪ Well done. ♪ Just on to one out of town ♪ ♪ This is no one night ♪ ♪ Stand it's all relocated ♪

♪ Close your eyes and you'll be there ♪ ♪ It's everything is there ♪ ♪ The end of our perfect day ♪ ♪ Distant lights from across the bay ♪ ♪ Babylon's is done ♪

♪ Shaking ♪ ♪ Babylon's is done ♪ ♪ Shaking ♪ ♪ So find so young ♪ ♪ Tell me, you'll be one ♪

♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ♪ ♪ Oh ♪ ♪ Oh ♪ ♪ Here comes the sand and the winds again ♪ ♪ Yeah ♪

(upbeat music) - She wearing, shimmering, the valley. - Okay. - Okay, so what do we listen to each other? - It wasn't you, dude.

- We were supposed to get married, stop it. - Okay, we listen to all getting married. - Yeah, it was a lot. - It was a lot, it was a lot. - It was a lot.

- The guy stopped that. (upbeat music) ♪ Well, I should know ♪ ♪ Fine, now that it's just a spell ♪ ♪ Like a Sunday, a Tuesday ♪

♪ That it should go, it's my free ♪ - Oh, let's change. ♪ That I've got what I used to be ♪ ♪ And that was not a game of dream ♪ ♪ Babylon's is done ♪

♪ Shaking ♪ ♪ Babylon's is done ♪ ♪ Shaking ♪ ♪ So fine, so young ♪ ♪ Tell me, I'm the only woman ♪

- Could I bring it? (upbeat music) - Oh, Peter, no, I was just gonna step in and let folks know what we're listening to today.

“- I think everybody knows, this is Goucho.”

- Yeah, we don't try to, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - We gotta play more than listen to it. - Dude, the bar has been raised with that intro. It's so good. - Yeah, is there a by the way?

- So, okay, so an incredible opening track.

So, of course, the Indiana's Goucho released November 21st, 1980 recorded in two years, over two years, 1978 to 1980, in New York City and LA, it's on the MCA record label. - Almost entirely in New York City, by the way.

- Which is ironic, 'cause it's the most, it's like the ultimate LA, - That could feel like being in Southern California. - That whole song. - All this was recorded.

- It won the Grammy for Best Engineer Recording. - Yeah. - It lost out of the year to double fantasy, down to the Nintendo's double fantasy. - Yeah.

- Of course, stealing out at the moment that this was made really was just a two-member band. - By that point, it was a band, even. - Would you call it a band? - It was, it's a band, yeah.

- It's a musical organization. - But it's, it's Donald Faggan and Walter Becker, and then a bunch of like a smattering of a, I don't, a gaggle, I don't know what the collection of professional studio musicians,

what that, what that pronoun would be called. - I think it's just the 18, right? - It's like 18. - Yeah, yeah. - And there's something that, like a recording of musicians.

- Right, it was the topic, it's like a top tier. - A gaggle, a geese, a gaggle, you know? - A pride of lions, it would be like, I don't know,

a music musician, the first call of musicians.

- Yeah, yeah. - And there was a little bit of competition then, and I mean, this still is, the recording scene is different, though, New York City versus LA. East Coast versus West Coast studio musician,

who are the best, and like some of these Steve Gad, obviously was, well, all recorded on both coast. But I mean, there was some stuff about like, are these, are the New York City musicians up to the level from their previous records from Asia,

from the stuff they've been doing when they were based

“out of Southern California, I think it's fantastic.”

I'm very surprised that there was a little bit of Steely Dan talk of like, they felt like they had to push harder to get the kind of perfection they were going. - We can talk more about that later,

but it seems like no matter who was doing what, it wasn't good enough for Donald Thiggan at this point, making this album, they really pushed the envelope of like really shooting for perfection. This album was produced by Carrie Katzen,

Engineering by Roger Nichols, an incredible feat

of engineering. - Yeah. - If that's not the best-sounding roads sound in the history of recorded music, I don't know what it is.

- It's incredible. Shout out, Donald Garone, the legendary, I mean, it's so great. Let's just listen to a little bit just at the beginning and so we can focus on that.

Because I do think, we talk about how do these records start? These classic records, these records that we love so much, and I think the first statement matters so much. And this may be one of the strongest...

It's interesting, 'cause I don't even think this is gonna show up as either of our favorite steely Dan records of all time. Ooh, I just dropped that bomb, there you go. But like this may be the best start

to any record from this period and is right up there. I mean, just for how you walk into the room. You know how somebody walks in the room, sometimes after you get to know me like,

"Ah, not quite on the level of the walk-in, but the walk-in is something, right?" - You look nervous. - Well, don't be. - But, first of all, Perti, and Perti,

I mean, Chuck Wright, I mean, do you like your rhythm sections in pairs? - Because I do, indeed I do, yeah. - And Don Gronek, the sound, as she said. The phase on it, perfectly.

Oh! Perfect road sound.

“Perfect, honestly, perfect everything's out, isn't it?”

- So, okay, I agree, it's an incredible way.

- I mean, nothing's the best in art, right? We can't really put them up against each other, but you like this better than black house starting Asia? - I think it's right there, I think this is est here. I think this is like for starting out the record like,

and I think that's something where, and you know, we're gonna probably talk about the ups and you know, the pros and cons of Steely Dan, I mean, a Walter Becker and Donald Fagans obsession with perfection and detail oriented.

I think that these kinds of things, how the track start, how the fadeouts, the precision of that, as listeners year after year, we're very much rewarded by their pursuit of perfection. In some other areas, maybe with a little bit of an antiseptic

nature added by drum programming and things like that, we could say, maybe they went overboard with some of that, you could debate that, but I think in terms of like, it's an interesting conversation Peter,

because it's kind of like what makes it so strong can also be like on the flip side. Sometimes it really works, and sometimes it's like, right, a little more dirt on this somehow. But I mean, in terms of like, this is there's no window,

there's no drum, what we'll talk about, who went to this. Who's going to let the guy, the one who watches the inside windows, who's like, take it around to learn about window. No, but I mean, this is Bernard Perty, and we're gonna hear, kind of breaking this groove down.

That's the pretty shuffle. It's the pretty shuffle. This is like one of the most iconic grooves of all time, but this is the thing though. You could just have Perty and Randy come in and start grooving over blues,

or just grooving over this, and it's gonna be fantastic.

“I think what the steely Dan touches for this intro,”

and Don Gralnik just plays some cool bluesy stuff on the roads,

There's a level of like, sophistication and jazz weirdness to the harmony of this 200%.

So like, a million percent.

“I think what, I don't know if they intended to do this,”

but it's like, we're gonna have everything perfectly placed, because the harmony is so weird, especially on this long 45-second intro, that that's gonna do all the heavy lifting of life. And so everything else has to be so studio perfect.

And I think it works. I think it works great and holds up like every time I hear this, I'm like, yes, let's drive west on sunset. So just a couple of weeks ago, we talked about Carol King's tapestry

and how Carol King would do two different keys, like one key in the verse and then go up a perfect fourth to the key in the chorus. Steely Dan, which is like a common way to use two keys. In a way that is very logical and isn't drawing to our ear,

Steely Dan is using on this song, two keys kind of simultaneously interchangeably. A B-flat major and B-flat minor. It starts off in D-flat major, which is also B-flat minor. But it just goes between this two modes.

It's modal interchange is the technical musical term. But what you're hearing here, why it sounds so like, jazzy and drawing, is because they're just going between these two keys. It's not random, but damn if it's not just like,

what? Like it is jarring. - Yeah. - And for such a smooth album that sounds like a weird adjective for its say it's drawing.

But harmonically, it's drawing.

“Malatically, however, is where I think their genius comes in.”

Because they always do this.

We talked about this in the Asia episode. Like the chorus to black cow is in sort of one key as they're going outside of the key all around it. So they do this thing where they put the melody in a very listable place.

And they make it very easy to sing for anybody walking down the street. You can whistle this melody. But all the harmony around it is weird as hell. And that's what makes D-Lidam to me.

It's like the way they color their melodies with context of the harmony of the chords that they put there. That's what makes them so interesting. And nobody can match them at that.

They are so good at that. Maybe like take six, you know what I mean? - Mm-hmm. - But they're on that level. Right, right. - Yeah, and I mean, you talk about, so the jazz harmony,

like that's what keeps this, like if you went with more first of all,

starts in G-flat at the beginning of this,

with these open fifths, right? With this, which is a weird thing already, to start out a record. So, and then as the harmony moves, it moves in very unconventional ways.

The thing about it is, you've got a very, I mean, look, I'm gonna say it. You've got a yacht rock sensibility to this. - How dare you? - Well, I mean, he is, he is.

- He is, he is, he is. - I mean, I must say this is a yacht rock. - We know about how Donald hates that term. - But listen to, I mean, I'm just saying, it's got that connotation that feel to it.

Almost like a smooth jazz. - I mean, it's prototypical. - Yeah, this is true. - So, but what pulls it away from that to be like, I'm just gonna sail away on my yacht

and there's like nothing. - Yeah, well, okay, yeah, they're exactly. Well, I love that track, but I'm just saying, there's nothing interrupting your sale on that. This has some stuff that's like,

I mean, when I talk about it, what's the lyrics I'm in? - 100. - The lyrics is the biggest rapture. - I don't even know if we're gonna get to the lyrics on this episode, Peter,

because the lyrics are so crazy throughout this whole album. - But could you imagine, if you had all those crazy lyrics, which they have, plus this crazy harmony, and you didn't have super smooth grooves and precision within that,

it would be a little bit of a hot mess, I would say.

“- I mean, honestly, when you, yeah, oh, it's amazing.”

If you were, yeah, if this was like done by a singer songwriter, you'd be like, this guy is partying too much. - Right. - You know what I mean, with the lyrics out there.

But I mean, if you hear, so, and we're gonna start going back to the groove too, because Chuck Rady and Bernard Hurtie, this is a smooth out as you can make them. The groove is still there,

but this is like handcuffs on 'em, and like, you know, obviously it's still, oh, man, that's so good. And Don Gralnik, same thing, like this is, when I say handcuffs, there's constraints, but they put on them. - Oh, yeah.

- In terms of, and then even like how it's mixed, it's so precise. - That's so precise. - Yeah. - Check this out, this is pretty only. (upbeat music) - Oh, clap, bass drum, and it looked,

his sound is changed on this record, by the production, right? This is not exactly how he sounds when he's just playing. I mean, yes, this is what he's playing. Oh, the placement of it and everything,

like the depth, the immediacy of some of the instrument, and then the depth of, like, that crash, some more sound or whatever. (upbeat music) Amazing.

- Yeah, and while we're on Perty, because I think he makes this track, obviously, but this is, and this tune. - Fave in your league. - Or Bacchar talking about Perty on this.

(upbeat music) - You got the back beat. - And that's Perty. - You got double time. (upbeat music)

- And you have it almost shuffle, ooh, beep. (upbeat music)

all this time is story where he, you know, who'd come to a session, you know, in the early '60s, and he'd have two signs with him, and he'd set up these signs one on one side of the line. - It's fake, you say, you've done it.

And then that sign on the other side would say, "You've done higher the hit record. "We're not a pretty perty." - Amazing.

“It's that kind of confidence that you need, you know?”

- Yeah. - Yeah, it's good. - But it's like, you hear the way Perty's playing there as he's demonstrate and look what they turned into. (upbeat music)

It's a little sterilized, right? But it's great. It starts out for some dude. - He lets it loose. - He does.

- But I'm just saying, like, the sound of it, like the groove is there and everything, and he's fitting in with the arrangement.

I mean, I think it's amazing.

- Yeah, that perty shuffle, where it's just like that. - Yeah, a lot more of it's implied on this. When he demos the whole thing, it's like that, right? - Amazing. - Yeah.

- Booted? - Okay, that's great. We love battle on sisters. So, should we start, let's, let's break down the lyrics, my friend. Why don't you read them first?

- Okay. - In the first person. - I like how you're gonna make me read them. - That was a joke, you don't have to. - Thank you very much, I really don't.

- Yeah, I mean West, I'll do the first one first. - Listen, I'll steal you the lyrics. - Yeah, I'll steal you the lyrics. - Especially like post-pretsologic, I feel like they get a little bit more and more dark.

- Yeah, cynical, a little bit, it's just like drug infused. Abstracts maybe, they're not fully abstract, but they're telling a story in like, it's definitely poetry. Like there's definitely like the word Babylon sisters.

I don't know exactly what they mean by that. - Right. - What a great phrase though. - Babylon sisters, shake it. - Oh, they're spelled.

- Babylon sisters, shake it. - Who's my can? - Who's my can? - There's so many, it just sounds cool. - The square of a goal.

- Square of a goal. - You know what I mean? Like there's so many like phrases, turns of phrases, on this jack with his radar, stalking the dead moray eel.

“At the eel with his uratian bride, you know what I'm saying?”

- Right. - But what is it? - That's on glamourfish. - That's on Dumpel Dumpel Dumpel Dumpel Dumpel Dumpel Dumpel Dumpel Dumpel. - By the way, that's a lyric from glamour profession,

which is a third track, which is a disco track.

- It is the disco track, right? - I don't pretend to know enough about lyrics to be able to decipher some of the stelead hand stuff. But all I remember is being a kid, and my parents would play,

they had it for a little while they're rockin' stelead and gold, which was like a CD of their music. - Oh, yes, yes. - Babylon sisters was on there. And I remember when I heard Babylon sisters

as a seven or eight-year-old child being like, what is this kind of talking about? Who is this man singing? What is he talking about? I have no reference for what this means.

- Probably too young for a person to listen to. - Yeah. - To Babylon sisters, but yeah. - Yeah, and I mean, look, some of these lyrics happen age great

in terms of like what they're probably leading, but I think, lyrically, as froze or whatever you want to call, I think the connection between the melody and the lyric, this is something that faded and back are like, we're really more massive.

- You can do that from almost any lyric from the 60s or 70s from like the Rolling Stones or something. You know what I mean? - Oh, yeah. - It's not gonna age well.

- Yeah, yeah. I didn't realize, it was funny 'cause like, looking back, drink, kush fasser from a shell. I thought they were saying like kufasia. I know it was some kind of drink,

'cause you're drinking it from a shell, but I didn't realize the kush fasser. That's German, like, brandy made from cherries. So obviously they just grabbed that word. I don't think they've ever drank that, maybe they did.

But it's something that sounds sort of fancy, but sounds a little citi. - It sounds like something you would get it, like a really dark bar in LA with the red leather booth, you know what I mean?

- And it's kind of teaky vibes kind of, you know? - Right, right, right. - Kush fasser. By the way, after this pod, you wanna go get some kush fasser?

- Hell no. - It was no. Okay, so cool. So this is a cool track. Do we cover everything we need to on here?

- I think so. - This is great. - So now we're gonna move along. Is interesting, so what is this? Three tracks on the first side and four on the second.

I always feel like this is actually three of these.

This is short record, especially because it's three minutes. - Yeah, it's three tracks and really three tracks on the second side. The last track is actually from another album. We'll talk about that a little bit later.

But right after this, we're moving right on to H19. And this is kind of the only hit reel or is the biggest hit off of here of the singles? - I love H19. - And it wasn't huge huge,

but I guess it went to number 10 on Billboard, so that's something. But this is the one probably is most recognizable. (upbeat music) Another great start, right?

(upbeat music) A little guitar pull there. (upbeat music) What's that?

“For our guitar player friends, like, how are they getting that pop?”

- I don't know. - That's the very beginning. - That pull sound? - What are they doing? - I don't know.

- I don't know if I'm going to put it on. - About a guitar to be able to. - Think of that out. - There's a lot of space in this. (upbeat music)

- Yeah. - Oh yeah. (upbeat music)

“- And the mix on the keys on the roads on this.”

- So good. Probably the best ever. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) ♪ Where the hell am I ♪

- So many great chord progression of this album.

(upbeat music) ♪ No, no, no, no, no, no, no ♪ ♪ We can't dance like that ♪ ♪ Talk it off ♪ ♪ Please take me along with you ♪

♪ It's light on ♪ - And you know, Michael McDonald's on background vocals. I'm some tracks. I think I hear him in there. He's not lifted on this.

I think there's some personal issues with how this is written. We're going to talk about that too. (upbeat music) And this is all fagging on keys on this.

♪ Queen of soul ♪ (upbeat music) (upbeat music) ♪ I've tried to fall in the souls of Ivers ♪ (upbeat music)

♪ She thinks I'm crazy ♪ ♪ But I'm just rollin' rollin' ♪ ♪ Ain't nothing ♪ ♪ We got nothing ♪ ♪ Got nothing ♪

- This is the most all the knows.

“I think, literally, of all the songs on this record.”

♪ Queen of soul ♪ ♪ With his smile on ♪ - It reminds me of being in the high-rige McDonald's drive-through. With my dad. - Yeah.

- After a cup scout meeting. - Oh, nice. - Some milkshakes, you know. - Yeah. - Probably a different angle for you,

'cause you were like, you were looking at a 19 year old, a cutie that was serving at the diner, and you were like, hey, alright, see you. You're coming out of the other direction from younger, right? - No, maybe that.

- I don't know. - Again, I have no idea even now what we're talkin' about.

- No, don't, but these layers of always been like,

this is the one I'm like, there's not a lot of mystery. - There's a lot of not a lot of not a lot of mystery, yeah. - Okay, this is our first y'all. (upbeat music) I mean, this sort of vamping here is, I don't know.

I won't cure any slander on the Vampa hay 19 year. This is fine, but it also comes back for two minutes later, and we love it, it's gait on the lower, yeah, you know. (upbeat music) - But you know what?

- Okay, can you just a good time for us to talk about the drummer on this? - Can we go over to a little bit of the tracks individually, so we can, because before we talk about the drummer on this track, which I do wanna get to, you mentioned sort of the pristine sound

of the roads and everything. I wonder if you could play a version of this without any vocals. I wonder if you could get this cut up somehow, so that we could take the vocals out completely, because-- - Hey 19.

- Hey 19, 'cause what I wanna hear is, it's not just, no vocals, no vocals. It's not just the engineering that makes this sound so good. That's certainly like a huge part of it, and genius engineers working on these albums,

doing a lot of incredible work for a long time on these albums.

“But it's like, I think what probably takes a lot of time”

for them too, I don't know, but I would imagine, is getting the arrangement to the point where every instrument, if you notice on this track, especially without the vocals, you'll hear has its own little place in the song, right?

So like, you mentioned the space? - Yeah. - It's that leaving of the space for the bass and drums, and using the roads fairly sparingly, right? It's not like they're, they're just playing roads

the whole time through, the dollar thing is just like keeps playing the roads, right? It's such a thick sound that roads that they have it so lush, it's like a big piece of chocolate cake. You don't wanna have the whole meal of chocolate cake,

but you're just gonna get full and feels sick and it's gonna lose the effect, right? What they have is just like these moments of chocolate cake that come at you. - Oh, come on man, all right, I'm gonna come on.

Can you play a little bit with other vocals? - Yeah. (upbeat music) Oh wait, we have to be able to be able to, yeah, you're sorry. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) - That's the greatest road to plug in the history music. Amazing. You can hear the different guitar parts with definitely piece together and like place

to take an out and like... - I mean, but it's a lot of attentionality to that. - That's precise as this is. - Yeah, and everybody has their, everything in its right place, spoiler, there's still plan.

- Yeah. - They're letting the guitar play. Like the guitar is playing musical stuff going on. - No, and all the sounds actually accept the drums which we're gonna talk about more on this track

and a couple of them, but like all the sounds are very like a coost, I mean, well, electric guitar, whatever, a very organic sound, the roads is very much, it's not like analogs, it's very analog sound. Obviously, it was recorded in analog.

But even like the different kind, you know, like the rhythm guitar that comes in, it's just the manipulation, not manipulation.

what's gonna be left in, what's gonna be taken out, you know.

(upbeat music)

“- Matt, this sounds like the last half of the tune.”

- That's what I could listen to this, I mean, I love the tune, but I could listen the whole thing with that tune. - Some good backgrounds on this. ♪ We can't dance, but we can't talk at all ♪

♪ Please take me along when you slide on down ♪ - Let's get to more, some more of the, we're gonna talk about Faggin's voice, too. ♪ The queer vocal ♪ - There's some great B.G.s.

♪ The fight could not be a ♪ ♪ Make tonight a wonderful thing ♪ - If you say with the queer vocal, the fine Colombian. ♪ Say it again ♪

♪ The queer vocal ♪ ♪ The fine Colombian ♪ ♪ Make tonight a wonderful thing ♪ - Yeah, this is why, like Donald Faggin really proves this rule of right of like what it takes,

what it takes for like a pop vocal success. You know, there are so many vocalists who like do musical theater or opera

or commercial singing that are amazing,

that have incredible voices and can sing anything, but what really works on these contexts as an artist is a voice that stands out. It's like, think about people like Bob Dylan or David Bowie or Paul McCartney and John Linnon.

- Yeah. - They're not like the technically most brilliant singers you've ever heard. Certainly Donald Faggin is not. - Yeah.

- But they have, Donald Faggin has such an interesting voice. - Yeah. - Immediately identify us. - Yes.

- Immediately you know who it is. - Distinctive and it's cool sounding. It makes phrases sound cool. - Yeah. - This is saying it again.

- I mean his lyrics and melodies are like custom, obviously fit for him. Do you want to hear him singing "Lush Life"? Probably not. I would want to hear it.

I would want to hear what I could do with it. But you know what I mean? Like it's not, it's not like he's someone who would be on American Idol or something. - No, but he's singing the right stuff on here.

- Yeah. - In a way, and a lot of those American Idol, you don't want them covering these songs. - It does become, I mean, honestly, this stuff is hard to sing.

- It is hard to sing. - But you know what, too, it's like, and we talked about this when we talked about Asia, like as pristine as everything is, what's so cool is his voice isn't.

I mean the sound of it is pristine. - Yeah. - His actual like vocal quality. He's a good singer, but he's not like this, like unbelievable Sam Cook level of voice

of dancing anything, you know. And that adds to, like adds just enough grit for you that you're just like, oh there's some real shit happening here, you know. - I mean like Michael McDonald who sends

some background on here, he could, I've heard actually, he sung some of these songs,

“I believe, I don't know about it this song.”

- I mean, that's, that's, he can pull that off. - That's all the fame, distinct, yeah. - Yeah, that's like two notes and you know the writing it. - Right, right, right. - Cool, would you want to talk about the drummer here,

if you want to come back that later, 'cause I could give you some isolation on that too. - Yeah, so the drums on this happened because they couldn't get it to Donald Faggan's liking. They couldn't, even though they had

some of the greatest drummers who ever lived. - Steve Gadden, Bernard Perti. - Some other good drummers. - Jeff McCorro, Rick Marotta, they couldn't get it and Wendell.

- Groovin and consistent enough that Donald Faggan thought it was what he wanted. So he asked the sound engineer to create-- - Rodginacles, Rodginacles, yeah. - To create a machine that could do it.

And Rodginacles said, "I can do it if you give me $150,000." - Yeah, well, he said it was going to cost $150,000. - To build it. - Yes, I'll link to his $150,000. And he did it.

He invented, essentially I think maybe the world's first

sample drum machine where they sampled, 'cause the-- - When was his story? - The stipulation was, is he didn't want it to sound, they were already drum machines in 1979. But he didn't want it to sound like a drum machine,

like an electronic drum machine. - Right, like a drum drum. - Like a real drummer. And so, Rodginacles did it. - Yeah, invented this machine called Wendell,

and Wendell plays on three songs on this album. And this is the first one. - Yeah, and this is the impetus of Wendell. - Yeah, now, and we're going to talk about,

“did they achieve the human feeling or grooving drummer on this?”

(upbeat music) - This is hay night scene, just the drums. Just Wendell. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

- They're a little bassin. (upbeat music) I think I like the pretty shuffle better. I'm just, I'm gonna put that out there. But, once you start adding stuff in,

I don't know, man. And this is the thing, it doesn't sit in isolation, right? (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) Now it sounds. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

(upbeat music)

“Now there's a little bit of controversy about that too.”

So, and I mean, on the original LP here that we have,

the liner notes, drums, Rick Marotta. So, I saw a few places where they would say that some of the fills were still human fills. I think that's how to do that well. - Yeah, I think that's true.

All the fills are done by one of these great drummers. You don't believe it. - I mean, I just don't know, because it's, I mean, this is making it's like he's playing everything clearly, it's not.

And I know that the engineers have confirmed this track. Actually, the tracking engineers, not Roger Nichols, who was the mixing engineer, the creator of Wendell, but the tracking engineer, who apologies, I'm missing his name now,

who actually did a lot of the heavy lifting on this L.H. Shiner. A huge part, artistically, of this record and to the sound that it has, he confirms specifically which tracks, and this one, he said in an interview,

is entirely Wendell. So, and he was the one literally recording what was there. - So he was saying even the fills? - Yeah, I don't know, I don't know.

“So, by the way, this isn't the first time--”

- What was that, my friend? - I know, I wasn't there. - I don't know either.

This isn't the first time we've had a sample loop used

on a huge k-song. All right, we didn't even address this, and we didn't know the voodoo episode. - But we didn't know, we're gonna get caught up in this again. - This is a drum, this is not Wendell, though.

This is, it's a Wendell-like item. - This is, we've, we've, this is the mirror. - This is the mirror, this is a quest life. - Sounds, sounds, we think. - But put it in a loop, why?

- It's a program by D.A. D.A. So, they used quest love sounds to put it in a loop. - Allegedly, not too far from Wendell, right? - It's kind of interesting. - But they just have much more technological abilities

to make it feel and sound organic, right? There's a precision there that they wanted, and there's a placement for how they track. - Okay, but I don't mind Wendell on H19, actually. - I can't, you know, and I just, I just met on its own.

It's like, oh, I don't, like, whereas you listen to just perdi,

you're like, I'm cool. - Now, you hear it by itself. - Is it, but that's not real. - Is it Steve Gad on the track, Asia? - No. - Is it perdi on Babylon's sisters? - No. - No, but maybe that's not what that track needs.

- That's not what he wanted. - And, you know, if we know anything about this album, they got what they wanted.

“Or they paid someone 150 pounds dollars to ride it, you know?”

- So, we might come back this for quibble bits, but I'm ready to move on to track three of you are, unless you get anything else to do. - Yeah, glam profession, by the way, if you like glam or profession stick around to the end of the day,

you like glam or profession stick around to the end of the episode 'cause we do a full version with our quartet of our range of glam. - No window. - Window is not invited to that.

- Can you imagine window doing the one that we just did? - No, that'd be awesome. - Window would be effin' it up. - Okay, so glam or profession, this is a cool track. This is, well, it says Steve Gad,

but we know there's a lot of window on here. I think we'll be able to, this one, I think, is combined with the fills and stuff. But let's check it out. You're kind of in a glam or profession,

you're a jazz, piano influencer, and a jazzer, you. - Okay, are we in a bit of glam or profession? Is that how it goes? - Yeah, yeah. (upbeat music)

- Other great roads. (upbeat music) Anthony Jackson on base killing at RMP will gloss in recently on the great space player's album. (upbeat music)

- It's going. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - That's good. That ain't when.

(upbeat music) - I wanna know who plays for the lakers for sure. Maybe he plays for his mom. - Group a group. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) - I'll bet it, we are. - I'll do it. (upbeat music) - He's like a mingus album.

You know what I mean? - Yeah. - It's like mingus in the 19th. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

- Shout out to Rob, Moon Sea on piano. plays a nice song here. It is doing all this copying in between the faggings on keys and then he arranged a much better shot. Valerie Simpson Leslie Miller, Frank Lloyd, Zack Sanders,

background. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Two four more, that's weird. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

- I always thought that was illegal fun.

Like they're wiring illegal money. I think it's illegal fun. (upbeat music) - Spread the lakers. - Spread the lakers.

- Spread the 70 lakers, the caram cannibal. (upbeat music) - Off you go, baby. - He just makes a shit up mouth. - Just all the right.

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Time's got a mic record. It's a lot of heavy. - Yeah.

- The harmony is a lot. - Yeah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - You're Asian, right?

Okay, another thing. I thought that was your Asian right. - Were these guys-- - I thought it was your Asian. - It's your Asian.

- Your Asian, like Euro Asian. - Yeah. - Yeah. - They're both bad.

“- These guys are just jazz nerds, I think.”

- Like they're just a nerdy ass shit. - Well, what do you say that? Let's listen to how Fagan talks about when he met Walter Becker and how he sees themselves. - That harmony could be played in like any dank

jazz club in Brooklyn, right now. You know what I mean? - Yeah. - Like they're playing it right now. - So this is a sad boy straight vibe, you know?

Like a straight group. - Shad boy, that's a harmony. - Yes, you can. - This is Fagan talking with the great Paul Shafer. The great, see?

We're talking jazz about 10 or 15 years ago. - The legendary. - The great. I mean, it's jazz. - This is Donald Fagan and Paul Shafer.

- Ladies and gentlemen, it's Donald Fagan. - Oh, hey, how you? - Donald.

- Okay, first we got to talk about something.

Why does Paul Shafer, I can't tell if he's like a grandma from the borsch belt in the 50s. - That's his vibe? Or if it's like a radio announcer from the, listen to Paul's music.

- My guy's wearing sunglasses inside 24/7. - Ladies and gentlemen, Donald Fagan. - I don't talk about Fagan. - Oh, hey, how are you? - He's a little brown sunglasses.

- Oh, thank you for being here. - Okay. - What is your mama was walking? - Okay. - Okay.

- He's a funny guy. - He's a funny guy. - Thank you. - This whole interview is great. - I got to put another question.

“- Why are piano players, and I include us in this group?”

- Why are we so weird? - We are so. - Because we are not. - Because we're put in these positions of power that we shouldn't have as like a rangers and producers

and like having podcasts and all the lives in the practice room trying to figure this out. - It's crazy. - Everyone else is like way cooler and normal than us,

but we know all the harmony and all the stuff

so we at all falls on us. Shout out to my guitar friends. Okay, back to Paul. - Ladies and gentlemen, it's Donald of Fame. - How are you?

- Donald, I'm glad. - Good to thank you for being here. - Okay. - What is your on what was Walter's musical background? - Walter and I had very similar backgrounds.

We were both Dinky, kid, jazz fan. - Dinky, Dinky. - Okay. - And I like how what is, did you meet him? - I met him in school college.

- Okay, barred, barred, barred, barred, college. - Yes, right. Famously show, yes. - We're a Chevy chasel so much. - Well, it's like Larry kid, you know, that he played drums

in a band with you guy. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - As hip as you are.

- Of course, he loved his jazz too. - And he was a good drummer. - And he could, he was a good drummer. - Oh, my channel, it's hilarious. - Yeah, it's hilarious.

Like Paul. - Paul's favorite. - But Paul's favorite can actually play. - Oh, he's crazy. - That's great.

- Super nice kid, I got to meet him a couple times. Really that super knowledgeable. I mean, obviously. - He's so good. - He needs a pocket, he probably has a pocket.

- That's probably where we know him. - He's got a good vibe though, it's like he's like... - Get that serious XM show, that was really good. - Oh, okay. - Is that what that was from?

- I think so. - Yeah. - And they're playing on here, man. - Yeah. - He's got golden vibes.

- Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - But the thing is, fagging grew up in New York area in New Jersey, primarily, but he used to come into the city

and you mentioned Charlie. Make us that was somebody he was really into. - I mean, you could hear it. - It's so clearly. - Yeah, it was so much like of that style of jazz

where like this harmonies moving in these augmented chords, you know what I mean? - Yeah. - To have not only weird chords, I mean, all jazz players that have figured out some chords to do that,

but like he maybe picked up that sensibility from Mingus where it's like set up a pattern of weirdness and celebrate that within the music. Not just some random, oh, this is slick. It's like, no, we're gonna have this section,

where it's gonna be like, we're gonna end on an augmented chord and careful old gold and like, of course he taught him with the lyrics and all that, but the thing was too, he used to have the village vanguard as a young and as a teenager. Listen to stuff, and that's great.

Like, you think about the lineage of like musicians and pop musicians, of course jazz musicians actors. Like the vanguard is such like a cultural connecting connection point for generation, so it's so cool to see that.

“- But that's, there was another window track, right?”

So that was that sort of drum machine that they were using. - Yeah, but definitely some Steve Gad on there. I think you can hear it within there with the fills as apparently what they said.

- Very cool. - Yeah, if we move on to, ooh, look controversy with the next track. - I love this track though.

- Don't check it out. - I don't check. - Hey, type of track. - Show my tip. (upbeat music)

“- I can't put my finger on it, but it reminds me of something.”

- S&L? (laughs)

- The theme song at the end?

- A little bit. - Is it treasure island? No, it's not treasure island. (upbeat music) - Man, that sounds so good.

- This Tom Skowl 10. (upbeat music) - Back at. - Arrangements as well. - Arrangements as well.

(upbeat music) - Yeah, Tom Skowl is a bad dude. - Okay, so there she is. (upbeat music) - Something different, right?

(upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - It's so fun, man.

- Man, it's so much going on.

- It's crazy. - Second verse. (upbeat music) - I don't care what you think. - How did they do this?

- I know. (upbeat music) - What do you want? - I want to see all of you. (upbeat music)

- Oh, who is the doctor? - You dare on the street? (laughs) - Why is he standing in your stand? (upbeat music)

- Jeff Becoreau. - Myra 11. (upbeat music) - I was gonna say, I thought that was Anthony Jackson.

“This says Walter Becoreau, I think that they tracked”

this stuff so much, who knows what's on it? Who's on it? But definitely Jeff Becoreau, so oh, there is, are you saying that they're not precise? Is that what you're saying?

- Man, this is a kill, I forgot how good this track is, man. - It's killing. - This might be the best arranged track, like the production and the, I mean, - This is a strong man.

- Shout out to everybody on it, a lot of us. - That's so big. - It's almost like they went through some source material and just my window comfort. - We're gonna talk about that in a minute.

But this, oh, should we just jump right into that? - Jump into that and then I'll talk about the chorus a little bit more. - So let's listen to the beginning again because if this sounds familiar to you,

pregnant pause, here we go. Boom. (upbeat music) Ah, that's snare drum roll. What's the key of a half, right?

Ah, it's got that little, so it's a little bit of a slight, slight, street beat almost like military, you know, like with that press roll thing there. So that's Goucho.

This. (upbeat music) This is a live version. Anyway, let me start it from the beginning side. (upbeat music)

All right, that's source material, this is Goucho. (upbeat music) Very, very close, right close. - Okay, so what I was playing you here, this is Keith Jarrett.

Long as you know, you're living yours, from belonging, killer record. - Longing amazing. By the way, Brandford, you know that was cool. - I just put up this whole version.

- Yes, it was a whole version.

- It was just kind of amazing.

- Yeah, I thought that was insane when Brandford was gonna do it. - That was. - And then you did it. - He did it. - That was awesome.

- Yeah, okay, so there's a little bit of controversy here because those sound like, although you made a good point when we first talked about it, you're like, "Oh, what? "Does Keith Jarrett own the four to one?

"The one to four." - The one to four. - Okay, exactly. - I've been doing that in churches for hundreds of years, all over the world. - It is very close, though. - It is very close.

- Just with the tenor and all this, like, just the way and the drums, but the melody's not exactly the same. - Not exactly. - And the chords are not, like, been used so much, the tempo and the key, but you can't copyright a tempo and a key.

- I wonder if this would happen today. What you're about to talk about.

“- I think it would, it would just be even faster.”

- Maybe it would be like social media. So what happened was there was an interview in 1981, so the record had already been out for over a year, or, no, maybe not maybe six months.

So musician magazine, right?

Here it is, I'm gonna read it to you. - Musicians. - Shout out to musician magazines.

“- You still remember, don't they still remember?”

- I don't know. - Yeah, this should be a big deal. I remember when, like, you know, I don't quite remember this early, but not the far after all.

- Magazine is, are you still around? - Yeah, magazine. - Musician was big. Musician says, "Are you familiar with the Keith Jarrett "recording?"

This is talking to Donald Fagan and Walter Becker. "Are you familiar with the Keith Jarrett record? "Belonging." Particularly, a tune called "Long as you know "you're living yours."

Becker. Yes. Musician, have you ever listened to that up against Goucho? Becker.

No. Musician, I'm not casting any aspersions now, but in terms of the temple and the baseline and the saxophone melody, it's pretty interesting.

Becker, parenthetically it is. Yeah, uneasy laughter. - Musician. At this point, the reporter traditionally asked the cornered politician or athlete

to go off the record, Fagan jumps in. Off the record, we were heavily influenced by that particular piece of music. Becker says, "I love it." Then it says, "Becker and Fagan later

"approved their off the record, "responses for publication." That costs them a little bit of bread. I can tell you that, right? - Why is that?

- Well, musician then said, "We are talking about borrowing." And Fagan, it's Fagan cocky. He's a good at any knows it. I don't know. - Famously.

- Fagan said, "Hell, we steal. "We're the robberbearance of rock and roll." So when this article came out, it made its way to Keith Jarrett. I'm sure you could. - I'm sure you could.

He engaged the bus in the bus and legal proceedings. Turns out they had to refer into a New York lawyer because they're only licensed in the state of Illinois. - And sometimes that license is an exactly valid. - It's based on the Napoleon or code.

- Well, I'll say, I'll say, I'll say. So anyway, back out back to them. So I think they talked their way. 'Cause I mean, these interviews were big. Now, it's like if you say something on social media,

they lost, but it's in print. And so they ended up settling, and he's, well, listen as a songwriter. - David Jarrett is.

“- He Jarrett is a code, I think it was 33, 33, 33.”

- And sometimes I've heard of him. - I wouldn't doubt if it's just like, 'cause when did Belongon came out a few years before? - 74. - 74. I mean, that's enough time that you could literally like,

know it, love it, and kind of forget it. - Right. - And then it comes out. Listen, buddy, I've told you this before. I told you about the song that I wrote that is, with the 442s, my band, we played all the time.

It's one of the people's favorite songs we do.

It's basically we are the world.

- Yeah. - I just, like, I was at a sound check. After we recorded it and been playing it for two years, I've played it. - Yeah. - Everybody's Sean looked over me in a sound check as we were rehearsing that song and goes,

you know, this is just we are the world, right? And I go, "Son of a gun, it is just we are the world." - The world has like 17 songwriters on it. So they'd be happy to add one more if you want. Don't come at me, Stevie Wonder and Lionel Richie,

but no, you know what I'm saying, it happens, it happens. It happens with comedians where you hear a joke and you absorb it and then you forget that you know it and then you pass out and you listen, it happens. - And I don't even think this, I don't know the exact law.

I mean, we just know little things and like, at least can work their way through a core case and who knows who would have won, but I think this whole thing of like, we were heavily influenced by that particular piece of music.

Then what they said of this interview couldn't have helped the cause. It definitely didn't help the cause. Like if they, you think if they wouldn't have said anything to this interview, just or not made a public record,

then hell, we steal where the Robert Bearns of Rock and Roll. - That's pushing it, isn't it? - But Vegas Pirate, like, I was worth it to be able to say that, that's cool, it's all good. - Yeah, I wonder what Keith saw it.

I wonder if there's any Keith you're using about it, you know what I mean? - I know, probably not. - Yeah, cool. - That's it. Okay, so can I, yeah, take my couch open. - I'll take a turn table back.

- Train a little bit, so I wanna address the chorus here

“of Gowchew, because, let me go down a little bit, right?”

(upbeat music) ♪ Who is the Gowchew me go? ♪ ♪ Why is he standing in your span? ♪ ♪ Oh, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord ♪ - And these lyrics make sense too, by the way.

♪ Oh, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord ♪ ♪ Who they should stand, oh, Lord ♪ ♪ Well, they should sell his wife ♪ ♪ One of the great lines ♪

♪ We'll never be well for you ♪

♪ How in the past ♪ - So good, best of all. - Okay, so I'm gonna back it up again, but we're gonna take some things out here. (upbeat music)

- We're gonna take a turn. (upbeat music) - It's not great. - It's not great. - It's not great.

- It's not great. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Yeah, I never noticed that, it's so good, yeah. But it's such a huge chorus.

- Yeah. - It gets so wide. (upbeat music)

split register. (upbeat music) - That's it. It's just the chorus and that guitar doing all that great rhythmic work under it

and just how they pan everything out, huge wide, all little sparkle stuff

that happens man, incredible track, incredible track.

- For sure, for sure, great stuff. Shoutout Tom Scott, great horn arrangements on a number of things and great playing on it. - And honestly, dude, honestly,

“what makes, I think, Goucho, the album so good,”

is everything's been pretty, I mean, glamour profession, I think is a little, sounds a little dated with the disco beat and everything. - Yeah. - And that's the only depth I can think of so far.

- disco window, disco window, disco window, everything else, Babylon sisters, hey 19, Goucho, and then next up, the next track. - Yeah, it's unbelievable. - Yeah.

So now we're, well, Goucho's the first song on the second side. So now we're at the middle song, if you think about this as six songs, a bit seven, it's the second song.

- Do you think about it as seven? - I mean, structurally, I don't know, just 'cause three, three, and because to be honest,

I don't wanna give anything away, but like third world.

Like that's the, that's not the original release though, isn't it? - Yeah, yeah, it was not the original. I think that's just one of those records that like, so it's like, it's like, it's a my rival, I'm done. - Oh, okay, for you, it's only six.

- Yeah, you like to bury your head in the sand. - No, no, no, I mean, in third world, man is fine, but I didn't even know this till recently, it was recorded so much earlier, or was it? I still don't really know.

- Nobody knows. - Yeah, but I mean, just to me, my rival, well, once we get out, I'll tell you, I mean, I'm just kind of done. I feel like I had enough, even though the record's short,

but I mean, to tell you the truth, I think if this was six tracks, I would almost call this a near perfect record. - I would agree, I would agree. I think that would be shockingly short

and people would be like, oh my God, you know.

Plus, you know, when this came out,

this was a big, this was one of those records that, what was this, and not MC it, what? How was this, oh, Gaffin' UM, you know? - So, what I like to think about too is, if this is six tracks, recorded over two years,

that's four months per track, all right? - All right, all right, all right. - No, but this was a thing like for the record,

“and maybe the cassette too, I think they were priced the same.”

But I remember like around this time, they were like the big record company's Warner Brothers, MCA, what I can't remember what this was. But this is MCA. Oh, MCA, like they were trying this like

upper demographic pricing, everything was $8.99, but then like certain artists that were established, and were like, we're Steely Dan, the Dan, they would do $9.99. Which today sounds silly, like,

'cause pricing is all over the place. - Remember this though? - Yeah, but it was a big deal, 'cause it was $8.99 everywhere. It's like they were putting a marker, the companies wanted another dollar.

- Even in the CD era, like at Barnes and Noble back in the day, it would be like, there would be $9.99 all the way up to $18.99. - Right, but they were like the record companies were trying to make editorial decisions based upon pricing. They're like, this is a premium board though.

This is not a Bordeaux de Country, you know, like. And so, and Steely Dan, famously didn't like that. Like they fought again, that was part of their, they were in a big battle. They were calling them the Custer Dome,

supposedly as Warner Brothers, that's where that lyric is from. But I mean, they didn't like that, 'cause they were like,

“they were, they've always been very much of the people, right?”

And they thought, you know, smartly, that their fans were gonna think they were pricing it, which is silly 'cause you're like, oh, everybody knows. No, most people say like, oh, I can't believe Steely Dan's trying to chose 99, 99, who do they think they are?

You know, so they were against it. - Very cool. - Yeah. - No good for that. - I mean, not good for, but you know what I mean, good. - Big, big, big, big, big, big, big record company.

- This album is from Big Harmony. This is Big Harmony. - Big Harmony. - Awesome. All right, so what are we going on to now?

Time out of my mind, man. - Time out of my mind, man. - Come on, let's go ahead. - Let's go ahead. (upbeat music) - Uh, come on. - Come on. - Another great start. - Yeah.

- Oh my God. - There is a master of the great and weird start. - This is one of old man dance. - Yeah. (upbeat music) - Back to a windowless track. - The end to the windowless.

- The windowless. - The windowless. - The windowless. - The windowless. - Oh, the, the rock, the rock, the rock, the rock, the rock, the rock. - The rock, the rock, the rock, the rock, the rock. - Sit on a sidewalk. (laughs)

(upbeat music) - Kind of just describe the old dude's gonna do the right thing. Good night. (laughs) ♪ Put it down ♪

♪ The kid ♪ ♪ Don't worry, don't worry ♪ - Uh. ♪ Make the chase ♪ - So good. - What chase is that? - It can be good for a minute. It's good. It's not good. You know what I'm saying? ♪ Put it down ♪

- Got a little Michael McDowell B.G.s on this Valerie Simpson. Patty Austin. - Oh. - Whoo. - Whoo.

So this is Rob Mooksie. The guy with the pianisters on the lot of this, the horn is right. - Oh, he's crushing this, too. - Yeah. - Sandborn, Roddy Cuber, on Barry. - Michael Bracker, Randy Bracker. - Oh. (upbeat music)

- Oh. - Yeah. - That's amazing.

“- Pleasure to have some lessons. - Yeah.”

- Hi. - Hi. - Hi, folks. I'll meet you there. - Goodbye. - Go, folks. ♪ Try it ♪ ♪ What a day change to change to remind ♪ ♪ And the silver will turn home ♪

♪ Time out of mind ♪ ♪ Time out of mind ♪ ♪ Mark Napler ♪ ♪ ♪ - That's the mic when we download it.

- It's just like the weather. - Yeah, yeah. ♪ Mark Napler ♪ - I'll leave it to all of you. - There's definitely some birdland lives out of it.

♪ ♪ - And this is like stage man when I was in middle school. - Yeah. - Like we wish we could have played that. - Yeah.

- You know, no stage man sounded like that. - Yeah. - We thought we there. ♪ ♪ - Those middle school directors pretended like that.

- Yeah. - Pat Williams. ♪ ♪ - Look, McDonald's. - He said he takes over.

- Can you back that up real quick? - Oh, that's okay. - I was going to go to McDonald's. - I was going to go to McDonald's. [laughing]

♪ ♪

“- To McDonald's just say more than Fagan did all the entire album.”

- More souls? - Yeah, he's like four more moments of life.

- How do they leave that amazing?

- I don't know. ♪ ♪ - Fagan's like, you do that. ♪ ♪ - Okay, so what's great about this?

This is a killer track. - By the way, shout out to Michael McDonald because from like 75 to 84 he's on everybody's album. He's making his own album. He's making the best music of his life.

And he's playing on every single and everybody's stuff. - I know. - Apparently he was on the cruise the week before I was. The jazz and the killing it with David Foster. ♪ ♪

- Man, so what's fun about this? Mark Napler doing this. The great guitar stuff here and there. He describes this as like easy going. We're in Southern California.

You got the lawn chair out of a little rust on there. That's okay. You might get a little botchalism, but it's all good. But you sit out there.

This is like easy, yadding, we're right.

- Botchalism? They pay for that now, you know. - They pay for that? - It's Botox. - Okay.

He describes this session. That is easy going. He says this was like getting into a swimming pool with lead weights tied in the mood. - Oh, good.

- That's how he describes this session. That's exacting they were. - Well, let's talk about this. We've already hinted around to this with the window. And you know, the window was there because Steve Gadd

couldn't play it good enough. - I know. - You know what I'm saying? - Right. - In Donald Faggan's mind.

Like this album is a monument to perfectionism as I said in the intro because. - But was it that he couldn't play it good enough or was it that he couldn't play exactly what Faggan that's better?

- That's right. - So a certain degree has had in mind. - So maybe they couldn't describe it or I don't know. - But they were so uncompromising in this process throughout the recording process apparently

throughout the mixing process, the mixing process. Like, you know, I heard rumors of like 40 takes trying to get the exact right fade out on Babylon's scissors is like 50 something. - On the fade out.

- Yeah. - You know, just to get the right one. - And they're hearing. - Yeah. - I mean, listen, I love this level of detail.

“But does it rob it of some kind of organic chemistry?”

What have we gotten of 15 more Michael McDonald's soulful runs at the end of phrases? - Right. - If they would've just let some shit go a little more, I don't know, man.

- Well, some stuff slipped through by either, by locker, good fortune. This is Gary Kass, the producer, talking about Galcho and how he ended up saving it. - Donald Walter would write songs.

We'd we caught him. Every once in a while. If he couldn't get a track, he liked. He discarded the song. - Wow.

- Wow. - His feeling was, we have the greatest musicians in the world. If they can't play it, that way I like it,

something's wrong with the song. - Amazing. - It was absurd. - We lost songs over the years, because of it.

No matter how hard I would fight for a certain song, or so, he would say, "We're done. Next song." When we got to Galcho, they couldn't get a track.

There was Jeffery and Rainy and... Jeffery and Rainy. - Jeffery and Rainy. - Oh, Rainy. - And so we got to,

I said, "Oh, no, no.

I'm not losing this track.

I don't care. Go home if you want. I'm not losing this track." - Amazing. - So they did, they left.

- Wow. - It was me and Roger and Elliot. - The two engines. - Yes. - Noah, the drummer.

Jeffery just played to a click track. - 85 times. - Oh, my God. - Click Donald. - And I had a chart.

And I would mock the chart. - Oh, Donald wasn't there. - No, these two boys. These four boys are good. These two boys are good.

And Roger, I think there were 35 edits. - Oh, my God.

- In the tape to make a little track.

- This one track.

“- That one must have been a hell of a pro-tool session.”

- Joker. - They were using tape. - Oh, fake. And I said, "Okay." - They got a track.

You may sort of left it. You got Walter, they came over. He said, "Okay, we'll use it." - Okay. - You got it.

- No, I said, "Donald." Because they're in response to just him not being satisfied. Why? Anything they're getting. They have to send him home and do it 85 times to pull 35 different takes together

for one track of the Goucho drum track. - It's a damn good track. It's a damn good track. I'm not saying it's not. I'm not saying it didn't work.

- No, I know. - So did it, well, obviously it worked. What's interesting about this, if you kind of step back and look at where Steely Dan was on this record, certainly Asia before this, pretzel lodge. I mean, maybe just who they were as a band or a production duo is what, maybe more of what they were at this point.

Creative juices flowing through, like, how do we piece this stuff together? Like, they took so much from jazz famously. Like, they saw it. How do they describe themselves? Dinky kid jazz fans.

- Yeah. - Harmonically? - Yeah, for sure. - But that's kind of it. - No, melodically too.

Yeah, to a certain degree. But not from like the common vernacular that would have been around at that time. B-bop or post-bop or whatever. Maybe from great American song, woke a little bit. But I mean, certainly harmonic.

That's like when people like, oh, my God, it's jazz. Or that's like, sounds like whether it's like the harmonies. It's like what jumps out of you. But the attitude towards playing music like in jazz, we're typically, you know, if you're in there with, you know, Steven.

- You know, Steven. - Well, not only that, it's like, oh, I'm a Steve Gad. So I've got Elvin Jones, the equivalent of Steve Gad for a jazz drummer. Like, you're not going to be like, play 85 times. And I'm going to piece together your best.

It's like, you know, I imagine, I imagine what this could be. But you're bringing in what it can even be beyond what I could possibly imagine.

“That's what John Coltrane would have been like, do your thing.”

And we're going to capture the magic. And so like this is almost 180 degrees in the other direction. It's like, yes, you're great. But we got to do 85 times for you because you're not great every measure. But you're 99.9.

We're going to find those 100% of put it together to what is going to become a great track. - You know what, striking the about what you're saying here, Peters, you're absolutely right. But you know, it's also like, it's been heading towards the perfectionism in making records. You know, since the late 60s, really, since like the Beatles are making, you know, the White Album and let it be in Abbey Road, it's like, we are, you know,

the 70s was this art of Stevie and Steely Dan and Michael Jackson, like, making these records more and and earth went in fire. - Yeah, Steely Dan was, they were at another level. - Yeah, they're like, we're sure. - Yeah. - I'd be maybe Quincy and Michael first.

I mean, Michael Jackson definitely had that. I mean, Stevie, like, was like, went through a lot of stuff and tried a lot of things, but then it would be like, the raw take of him playing drum. - Yeah, like, superstition. I think it's like one time thing, one time through with him, like,

once he got it, even like, track that he's playing. - Yeah, he's just laying that down. - Yeah. - And it would move pretty quick. - Yeah.

- But they are taken into a different level. - It's just a different way. - Is it what I'm saying?

“- Right. I don't know of any other, even of Asia.”

I don't know any other recording that is so, like, people talk about his legendary is this. It's like, just, you know, the demand for the perfect thing that's coming out of their heads and they are uncompromising with how they're going to get there.

- Yeah, it's pretty incredible.

- All right, can we move on to some categories because we'll be able to kind of fold in the last couple. - Yeah, and also just this issue since you brought it up, Asia. Like, is this, I mean, the elephant in the room, the elephant in the custard dome, whoops, McHan, sitting in

custard dome, is this better than Asia? Is this more perfect? - We don't have to do that, but we will do it. We don't have to, but we, yeah, exactly. - I like to think of, I mean, we were just talking about the Beatles.

I was thinking about the Beatles albums in succession the other day. And like, it's almost more enjoyable for me at this point with these bands, especially these great bands. - What about is just one continuous thing that's happening. You know what I mean?

- Well, I won't box you into the better than Asia, because that's gonna be our category, but I'll just say, yeah, no, let me ask you first. Like, let's answer, is this a more perfect album than Asia famously because of the production.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And we tackled this last year. - And, of course, this is a ridiculous thing. - It is more perfect. - Is it even more precise?

I'd be a little more honest.

“- This is one of the most precise albums I've ever read.”

- Yeah, I would agree. And I would say that, you know, what this doesn't have, it has some cool soloing on it, but it doesn't have... - It doesn't have wind shorter. - It doesn't have wind shorter, and not only,

it's got great, I mean, it's got Michael Brecker, but he never cut loose. - Yeah. - That's right. - Like, so this isn't even more like controlled album.

- Very great. - Great role does a great work. - Killer album. - Vibe album. - I mean, look, if I'm happy, I guess, man.

- If we're driving in Southern California with our debit card rental card, we're listening to this, my friend. - Put it on the wall. - A New York City, a record made by a bunch of New York City guys in New York.

That's what we're listening to.

- For sure. - Okay, let's talk about desert island tracks. I've got Babylon sisters. We listen to it, it's the first track. I wrestled with this because there's a lot of great stuff.

- I think it's a great call. - Yeah, what do you got? - I have hate 19. - You have hate 19. - You have hate 19.

- You know, they stack the first two tracks, at least with the bass track. - Yeah, I mean, I'm a pop bro, buddy. And this is the bit's the poppy's track, and I just... - Yeah.

- I love it so much. - That's good. So let's talk about apex moments next, because this will lead us to this next track. I have actually, you know, my rival, which is the next track,

“which is, I think it's a little bit lost”

on this record being the second and the last on the B side. - Incredible track.

- I think it's an incredible track.

And can we just sort of start listening at the beginning? I don't know, my apex moment is towards the end. So if you want us to jump ahead. (upbeat music) Man, every track on this record starts right here.

(upbeat music) - Guitar, a cultural mall. (upbeat music) And that percussion. (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) - Quickly pear. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

(upbeat music) - You want to be an Anthony Spartan? - No, no, no, no, no, no, no. (upbeat music) - You can call it in the on rock genre, whatever.

- Jezee, yabrock, Jezee, yabrock, Jezee, yabrock, - This is really a one of one kind of band. (upbeat music) - When the song's pretty good on this track, this is a window. - This is another window track.

- This is a deep gap, but I don't know this in me. - It does sound awesome, actually. - Yeah, yeah. - He's got a scum. - Because every little detail, he will, he will.

- He gives a spade. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) ♪ Show, he's a jolly rung ♪ ♪ Until he happens for his own ♪

♪ Yes, I'll match him with the winner ♪ - And Jackson on bass. (upbeat music) - But you're all the same sounds on this album. - Or maybe?

- Yeah. - Oh. (upbeat music) - I said this faithfully. (upbeat music)

- Hey. (upbeat music) - Orange. - Come, Scott. - Okay, I'm gonna jump ahead.

I know it's like why are we doing this, but I wanna do it because the orange from here to the end, but I wanna jump specific on the guitar there. - Yeah, and Rick Terranjo. - So we're gonna jump to 330, check out the horns

from here to the end. This is my apex moment. - Whoa, look at that. (upbeat music) - Who's voicing?

(upbeat music)

“- This is the most solo on this record, I think.”

(upbeat music) - By the way. - Yeah, the horns on this album, just the horn players. - So killing.

- Michael Brecker, Randy Brecker, David Sandborn, Tom Scott. - Yeah, that's pretty good. - Yeah. - That's pretty good. And they're like he said.

- And Roddy Cubers on one track, on Barry. But there's no, there's not a lot of letting them loose. - No, it's worth it. - No, it's worth it. - Those players are badass players.

- Yeah, who is this on guitar or solo one? - Oh, high-run Bullock? - On this track, Steve Cohn. - Oh, Steve Cohn. - Yeah.

- Oh, I got, oh, this is his, yeah. Oh, solo guitar, right. And high-run Bullock and Rick Daryngear, too. But yeah, the horns from this to the end, this is some of the best horn riding. It's super simple, but, backrun. And we're going to the smooth jazz festival in LA now, come on.

- Yeah, I got to do it, man.

“So every time I hear my rival, I think of one thing.”

And this is kind of what I'm talking about. So this would be like a good AB comparison between the perfection, the pristine quality of steely Dan, and a very similar vibe, but not pristine. . - And another lawsuit, man, that's clear to you. - Clean.

- We do compare it, that's in these other tracks, but it's something like that. - Especially when we get to-- - 'Cause you guys are putting all like fly in the family, I mean, it's like, oh, it's like the clean version of, but this is crazy. - It is good, I'm not saying that stuff, listen, I'm not saying it, I'm just saying like there's this, like different way to get some.

- Very two different ways to get to, I'm actually very, I mean, that feels amazing, even though that's window.

It's a drum machine, it feels amazing. - It's window, is it really? - What's your eighth, no, I don't know, it's not a real person, we in Dale. - He did get a, Wendell did get a platinum record, which is a little weird for this. - What?

- Yeah, you know, when platinum, all the players go, Wendell got his own amazing, yeah, what's your apex moment?

“- Skate a little lower now, do we have to listen to that?”

- No, we don't. - Yeah, I was funny, that might be my low point on this, that's my quibble bit, you're skating low. - Okay, wait, this is second find this, this is a famous line. - I don't even try. - Skate a little bit.

(laughing) - I just went right now. (laughing) - What a mess. - But instead or what?

Because I went right this way, and you got all this, but they literally just dragged them, and that was weird, that was weird.

But it's got all this just like, listless vamping at this point. This goes on and on. There's just, I would not hear any, no, it's fine, but I love the end of fantasy. - I don't know how that could be at it, well, that's the skate a little lower now. Is something I say, every time this track comes on, I say it as soon as he says it.

- Out of mockery? - No, out of like, you know what it is, Peter is like, what you're saying, how it's like this sort of like, vamp or corny vamp? Like, he's kind of acknowledging like, skates, he feels like he's a little bit of, yeah, and that moment is fine. It's just, actually, it's more after that, like when they come back, and it's just like the tune could have been done. - Which leads me to quibble bits.

- You're my pencil. (laughing) - You're excited. - I don't know how that, I don't know, man, for the listener, he's literally, literally, it's called right to the scale.

- I know it's in the middle, I just didn't know that. - It's like, a little bit. - What do you got? Mine is the minus ramps on hate 19, there I wrote it. - Is this wrong?

- Is this wrong? - What you got? - Is, are you about to go obvious? - Is this record too clean? Is it too perfect?

Am I, do I work too hard? - No, no, you know, we can talk endlessly about it. It's like the endless debate about Steely Tan about this. The pristine nature of it is the, it's biggest strength and some people think it's biggest weakness. - I quote a bit a little bit, is some of the arranging is just a little too fussy for me.

- For like, when I listen to Goucho, when I listen to, I mean, almost any of the tries. - Yeah, no, the whole record. - Glamour profession. - It does tie the record together though. - It does, it does.

- No, but some of it, I'm just like, guys, take out just like a third of the hits.

- Right, a third of the weird chords. - Right. - Just leave a little imagination to the listener. - I know that's like gay, a little lower, is that what you're saying? - That's cool.

- Like, I want more of those momental, less chord.

“- No, and listen, I realize like, for a lot of people, that's what they listen to this for,”

but for me, it's just like a couple of, it's just a little bit too busy in the arranging. - Yeah, but on some of the tracks, on some of it's perfect, but I think it just got a little bit. - I would agree. - And I mean, in terms of the pristine nature, I would say, like if you separate what I don't think is a problem, as far as being too pristine is the production is the sound engineering and how the record feels sonic.

- Oh, all the playing is killing. - Yeah, and all the songwriting is killing, the sonic is very control, and they've got handcuffs on the players. But like, because the sound, it doesn't sound like digital, or although it's been described as that to me, it doesn't like you're getting the, I mean, window, maybe not with standing, but even that for an early drum machine, very organic. - Very organic.

- No, listen, this is a very tiny bit of a little bit, I'm just saying, like, some of the tracks, like, specifically, I'm a professional in Goucho, it just gets to be a lot after all, you know what I mean? I got you. - A Kuchimals. - We forgot the spoke playlist, oh, sorry, I mean, I'm going lazy on this yacht rock for reels.

- Because it makes this, I don't know, I don't really don't know, what do you got?

- I got audible honey, so sweet, it's audible honey, land of milk and honey. - That's, we got one of my worst bespoke playlist house, but this one's one of my worst, but it's very similar to some other bad with, it's an abominator. - Fine, yeah, I'm going five and you're not going to see, look, you can't even look me in the eyes. - I won't look you in the eyes, I won't look you in the eyes, I won't look you in the eyes.

- This truly is a five though, because it is a five.

“- Actually, it could even be lower, because isn't this the lead, I think this is the most accessible,”

steely Dan record. - Asian is most likely. - No, Asian is not. - I mean, I can't buy a thrill, I might be. - Can't buy thrill.

- Oh, definitely. - He's making fun of me if I'm not that. - No, can't buy a thrill, I mean, oh, that's you. - Well, you know, you got dirty work, you got a bunch of hits on there. - What's do it again on?

- Can't buy thrill. - Yeah, that is, well, that's the pop, is that the popiest?

- Asian is the most popular one, probably.

- Yeah. - Anyway, it's, I would almost, I said five, but I could go three, two. - I could go two. - I wouldn't argue with any of it. - I mean, the thing is, steely Dan, to the Dan's out there,

it's like, with Dan heads, it's like, every steely Dan utterances a 10. - So anyone listening, we'll explain this knobometer in that we don't really know how it works, but one means that it's very accessible to listen to. 10 means it's very snobby, kind of hard listen.

Ethan Iverson would write a 300 word essay on Substack about it. - That's right. - And 10. - And if it's a one, your Aunt Linda would listen to it. - That's right.

- Of it. - Aunt Linda's got to love this thing. - I think she kind of does that. - Yeah, yeah. - I'm going to go three.

- There's a lot of drugs for Aunt Linda, so. - We got to place it in 1979. - Better than Asia. - We're going, some of you say better than kind of blue, but that's a ridiculous comparison.

- Sometimes we say better than innovations. - Yeah. - Interesting that you chose Asia for better than. - Well, I'm just like, what do you compare, I mean, you could say like, I don't know.

I mean, what was came out right around this time is that we've covered is off the wall. So I'd be okay to go with that,

“because that's, I think, from a year before.”

- I think it's a note for both for me. - Yeah, me too. - Great record though. - It's a great record. - I mean, Asians, it's not better than...

- It's not better than Asians after I don't know the one. - I'll go to a mulch. This is when we look at the album. We look at the liner notes. We fondle them.

We enjoy them. - I think it's a name. - I want a little more. - It's a name. - It's good.

- I'm going nine on this. - I love the front cover. - The front cover. - This is an Argentinian fresco, I think, or something.

This always scared me when I was young.

- It's good. - Still does a little bit. Man, the use of space here. - It's a beautiful color. It's beautiful.

You space, I think. - I love the lyrics that are on here. I mean, I would take up one point off for the inaccuracy of the personnel that's implied, but I'm going nine. - Okay. - Up next.

This would be, what do we want to listen to on a Spotify place when we get to the end of this? - I put nightfly by Donald Fagan. - Nightfly. - Oof. - Okay.

- That's cool. - Not your face. - Not my face. - Oh, I was a little salty. I was a little spicy when I wrote that you see what I have?

- I do. - I don't even know if I want to say it. - Up next for me is Asians, so I can hear a better record. - Keeter Martin. - Oh, my God.

- You know, we got a newsletter, Peter.

“If you want to sign up for a newsletter, let me guess what it's called.”

- What? - You'll read it. - You got it, but-- - No shit. - Click the link below in the show notes.

Peter, this has been a blast here. - This has been awesome. - I love this album. Really fun, listen. Thank you to Steely Dan for the great music to the dance.

- It's unbelievable. - Shout out to everybody that's still with us. And RIP, obviously Walter Becker, Anthony Jackson. But, you know, the hard work paid off voice, it sounds great. - It's a great record, dude.

- Until next time. - You'll hear it. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)

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