Ken Coleman: Stuck in the Wrong Career? Here's How to Break Free | Career | YAPClassic

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If I'm not doing work that matters to me, I eventually start to wonder if my job matters and then it gets really scary. I start to wonder if I matter. One of the three human needs that workers have to have met as meaning and purpose in their work.

Two is recognition for their unique contribution and three is a relationship with their leader. Those three needs. Those are all heart stuff and that just shows our humans. Ken Coleman.

He's a Ramsey personality and number one bestselling author of the Proximity Principle. Career expert and the National Radio Host of the Ken Coleman Show. A nationally syndicated radio show. He helps people discover what they were born to do.

“What are some of the feelings that people have when you're not in the right career?”

So number one, there's a feeling of loss. They wouldn't define it as loss but it really is a loss. It's an emotional loss because you feel if you've lost time. What that looks like is that discouragement, you get anger at yourself, things haven't worked out the way you want to.

I also think there's a fear of the unknown. Talk to us about the problem of being disengaged and bored at work right now. What do the answer is? Young and profiteers, if you're waking up every day to a job that drains you, leaving you feel stuck, unfifilled, or like you've wasted years on the wrong path, this episode

is exactly what you need to hear. Our guest today is Ken Coleman, America's career coach, bestselling author and the host of the Ken Coleman Show at Ramsey Solutions. Ken has coached thousands through career pivots and knows exactly what keeps people stuck. Earlier this week, we explored the world of work and how it's evolving and how there's

more opportunities than ever, but having more options doesn't automatically give you clarity,

“which is why we're replaying this classic episode with Ken Coleman.”

In it, we dig into how to identify your natural talents and find a thread that connects who you are to the work that you were truly built to do. And if you're new here and this resonates with you, please make sure you follow the show. Your dream career starts with conversations like this one. Here's Ken Coleman.

Ken, welcome to Young and profiting podcast. Thanks for having me all. I'm excited. I'm excited for this conversation, too. And so for everybody tuning in, you are right now living your dream career.

You are a host of a nationally syndicated radio show. You are frequently co-hosting on the Ramsey Show, which is an Uber popular podcast. And you are essentially living your dream career. You're known as America's career coach. But there was a point in your life where you were pretty unfulfilled.

So I thought that we could start in your early career days, talk to us about your first

soul-sucking job. Yeah. Well, it's funny that you asked it because it was working for me. I was in my late 20s and I was on a path that I had carved out or certainly envisioned when I was 16.

And I was in the process I thought of gaining legitimate business resume. And part of this journey was stepping out on my own so that I could kind of take the next step. And I realized that the thing that I was preparing for a potential run for political office, that was no longer the goal.

And so here I am running the small business, which was just a means to an end. Just a day job. But I was working for me, but it was soul-sucking work. I did enjoy it. It was in a sales role.

And I could always sell, but it was a means to an end and then the end changed.

And when that changed, I realized I had no longer wanted to be involved in politics. I got disenfranchised with both sides of the aisle, it's just the whole process. It just was no longer a place where I felt like I couldn't make the difference that I desired to make. And so that was something that was shaking for me to my soul because I had been thinking

about this since the age of 16 and had made strides and had been involved in politics. Then got back out into the business world and was trying to build this caricature, if you will, to be this impressive person that could potentially get elected.

One, it left me wondering if not this, then what?

“And then the second thing that happened is I began to beat up myself and I felt like I had”

wasted all this time here, I am my late 20s. Like, bro, what are you doing? I was really crushing myself, you just, you just pissed away ten years. Now here you are on the precipice of thirty and I don't, I know we have a younger audience, but thirty really freaked me out.

More so than any other decade because it felt like I was now supposed to be certain things in this and this and this and that the time was ticking away. You don't think about it much in your 20s. So that put me in a position where I was really discouraged and confused at the same time. And that's the dangerous place to be in.

And so I snapped out of it, snapped out of it, eventually and just began to work with some

great life coaches, people that I had access to and they gave me some exercises and I began

just to walk through some life mapping and went back and that's when I figured out, ah, there's a different direction. Yeah, it's so interesting that you were so focused on politics and I feel like a lot of people are in this boat. They're, you know, younger and they decide like, oh, I want to be a doctor, for instance.

And then they go down this whole path and they go through school and then they become a doctor and they hate it and they don't know what to do and they feel like it's too late. I wasted so much time.

“What are some of the feelings that people have when you're not in the right career?”

Yeah. So number one, there's a feeling of loss and this is deeper than most people. I don't think most people would say to me and are you and I if we went on the street and we started asking young people this or people that feel this, they wouldn't, I don't think to find it as loss, but it really is a loss.

It's an emotional loss because you feel like you've lost time. So what that looks like is that discouragement, there's some anger. You get anger at yourself, maybe angry at others, you know, if things haven't worked out the way you want to and I also think there's a lot of fear, fear of, okay, if I now pivot and go after something else, what are other people going to say, you know, maybe

I got a degree in this. I love your example. Yeah. You go to med school. I mean, that's a lot of time and money invested and by the way, we all know this, pretty

much every society in the world, doctors are considered, you know, to be very prolific people. So now you're dealing with fear of rejection and one of my parents, my friends and family going to say what you're walking away from a, from being a doctor of you lost your mind.

That's the fear of peers, the fear of rejection, if you will, fear of the unknown. And that's what I was dealing with. Once I knew that politics wasn't it, I was sitting in the fear of the unknown, which I think, Hala is the greatest fear that we as humans face, you know, this idea of I'm walking in a dark cave and I can no longer see the hand in front of my face, it's paralyzing

it for driving in a car and a torrential downport. The fear of what's out there and I don't know what's next is paralyzing. That's a big feeling. Then I would say doubt, the cousin of fear, fear is I afraid of something bad happening if I move forward, doubt is I don't believe something good will happen if I move forward.

There are cousins. They like to hang out together and feed off of each other. But I think those are the emotions people are feeling. Yeah. So let's talk about how you discovered your dream career, because now you have an awesome

career in broadcasting. We actually have a lot of similarities in terms of how we got to our dream careers and broadcasting. So talk to us about this 10 year journey to get to, you know, the upper levels of broadcasting essentially.

Yeah, I'm glad you asked this because trial and error is really huge and the key word

“here is trying, I think the best way to get over doubt is to try something because when”

we try, we figure out an actual measurement to see, do I actually have any potential? If I try to play golf, which I did a couple of years ago, I found it really quickly. One of my potential is and it's not good, you know, I've tried pickleball since and I've got a lot more potential and pickleball, right? So we think of this in hobbies, but this is also true of our profession.

So the answer is, I felt like I always had this desire to perform.

And it went back in our life map and it goes real quick. I went, okay, I always love performing. As a kid, I was volunteering to be in the play, I was a little bit of a class clown. I wanted the pressure, I would do things in front of the whole student body. So I found the theme here that I actually liked the pressure of people looking at me, you

know? And sometimes we get on kids for that, but I think that's a beautiful thing, because most people are terrified of public speaking more so than death. We know this. This is a piece of data that's been out forever.

So now I have to start to go, what type of performing do I want to do?

“Do I want to be a corporate speaker and go out and speak and be a keynote speaker?”

Do I want to go into some type of non-profit or ministry work where maybe I'm speaking on behalf of a cause? Do I want to go into hard news broadcasting where you're looking at a teleprompter and you're just kind of reading, do I want to go into sports because of sports, you know? Okay, I thought I wanted to run for office, do I want to go into political media?

And so I went down the list and sports kind of jumped out to me because I still love sports. I love talking about sports. So I tried it and I got into it. And it wasn't a major break, but I got to some little breaks and one I figured out is

is that talking about sports was a form of entertainment. And I wasn't motivated to entertain people. That led me to realize that I want to communicate to encourage people, to coach people. So it was a process of elimination. I'm giving you the super short process, but that's when I got to the point, I was like,

okay, how can I now do broadcasting to encourage to equip people? And that's how I started to figure out. Okay, there is an actual world out here where you can communicate to help people transform their life. And that's that.

“And the key to that was I loved the sports broadcasting that was fun because I was performing.”

But I really started to realize that if I did this every day, I'm going to get bored with this pretty quick because I'm not deeply passionate about giving people my opinion on a sports team organization really. So that was a process of elimination. And we're going to talk all about why passion is so important, not just your talents and

things like that later on. But what I think is so interesting with your story is that it wasn't that big of a change. Like if you think about it, being a politician, it's like you're still up there on a stage, you're still motivating people, you still have to use your voice. And sometimes it's not necessarily like a 360 degree pivot.

It's just a slight pivot to a different career, right? So for, so for example, when I was developing my career, I wanted to be a singer, my whole life. And I would, I would perform. I always had a solo.

I was always the star of the plays.

I would, I was writing music in college. And actually, I started interning at hot in any seven. I would work there for free for three years. And I was Angie Martinez as assistant for the reason of pushing my music at the station, not to become a personality.

And then I learned about radio and I loved it. And I realized, hey, I could probably do this and become really successful at it. I'm not, you know, I'm a good dancer, but I'm not fiance. And I was like, well, I don't know if I'm really going to make it as a singer, but I could probably really make it as an on-air personality.

So I just pivoted slightly and used my voice in a different way. And then same thing with podcasting. It was like a slight pivot.

“So I think that's important for people to understand.”

You don't have to totally change what you're doing. It just might be that something is a little bit off with the career that you chose. Yeah, that's incredible. I love that you shared your story on this. I hope your audience knows that if they don't know it, they need to keep diving into

that because what you did is you just saw greater opportunity over here. It didn't make you less talented. It didn't make you less valuable to the world. And I think in some ways we can see the value you're providing now. I mean, it's hard to say.

It's hard to say whether or not you would touch lives and truly transform and have a role in people's transformation if you had made it as a big time artist. Yeah.

So it's fascinating to see that and I think that that's a really key point.

I realized that there was a thread. The thread was communicating on behalf of people. I thought it was politics found out, nope. I can make way more difference over here if I'm communicating in this lane on this issue.

So a little exercise for people that may be in a position that you and I were both in. That I didn't know back then, Holland. So I've developed this now, coaching 10,000 people on the air. Three little fun questions. If you're kind of figuring out what it's not this, what is it?

And Holland, you made a great point. There's going to be some similarities, even on the pivot. There's going to be similarities. So here's how you figured out. Ask yourself, who are the people I want to help?

And think of this through work context, because all work, certainly honorable work, helps people. So who are the people I want to help? Second question. What's the problem or desire that they have?

Then the third question is, what's the solution or solutions to that problem or desire that

I get excited about? So real quick review, who are the people I want to help?

What solution to that problem or desire do I get excited about?

This is where we ideate.

“And this is where our heart, these are heart questions.”

These three questions are designed to get the heart to open up. And when the head, the brain sees what the heart is pushing up to say, I want to help these people. So I want to help people who are struggling with substance abuse. Great.

What's the problem or desire that they have? Substance abuse, a destructive world life that traumatized them and so they reach out here, whatever. And then the third. So I want to help them through therapy or I want to help them through whatever.

So the three questions are essentially the same question, but you're kind of coming at it from three different vantage points.

And each answer builds on the other.

And by the way, you don't have to ask them in that order. You could be a person that goes, I know what kind of solutions I want to get to the world. And you go, okay, what is that? I want to code. Oh, great.

Who do you want to code for? And you can reverse engineer while I want to code for kids and make video games. Okay, great. So that's something that's really helpful that I wish I had developed for myself years ago.

But now having coach people, those three questions help us go deep within so we can see who we really are and where we can really contribute. Yeah, I love that.

“And I think that's super great advice, especially for people who are maybe a little bit”

older, like maybe in there's 30s to be asking that question.

So I recently had an interview with Gary Vee and one of the things that he says is that in your 20s, it should be all about experimenting and figuring out what you're doing. So I'm in my 30s now and I have a multimillion dollar company. I have a podcast network, a social agency, a top 100 podcasts. And I attribute all this success because I experimented a lot when I was in my 20s.

I was working for free at a radio station. I was blogging. I was selling underground, wrapper showcase tickets. I was working at the mall. I was getting so much different experiences and I really didn't have it figured out.

For like, I had other friends who already had corporate careers when I was still like trying to create a blog site and do all these other things, right? But I'm happy that I did that and I experimented. And I know that you also did a lot of experimentation and working for free. So talk to us about the importance of acquiring skills.

So you actually know what you're good at because you've got a test to know what you're good at.

“So true, you have to figure out what you're good at first because once we figure out what”

you came into this world, hardwired to do from a talent standpoint. And again, I've got three teenagers. Any parent, you know, couldn't look at their kids and go, this kid's talented at this, this kid's, they just know. We all know.

And you've been complimenting for this stuff. You're a whole lot. So even the most doubtful person watching us right now and listening to us right now, the most doubtful person you just down, your self esteem is down, your confidence is low. Can I just tell you something?

You need to pick me up. I want you to just rewind your life and throughout your life there have been times where people said you're a natural at that or that just comes so easy to you. Maybe you saw your sibling struggle at it and you went, huh? Easy for me.

Here's my point. Once we all truly get self aware enough to go, okay, this is what I'm good at naturally. With education, I'm a learning and experience doing. I can take a talent and I can make it super, super sharp. I can make it a skill.

All right. So you think of a, when you use an old school kind of example here, you think of a pot or no, if any of your audience has ever watched a pot or make pottery, it's fascinating to me. When they take a lump of clay, they put it on the potters wheel and through water and

they're forced of their hands, working with the wheel, they shape this inanimate object of clay into something extremely usable. I want people, that's the idea of taking a talent and turning it into a skill. We start there. And once we figure out what we're good at and how we can turn that into a sharpened

skill, now we can see the world through the lens of, I've got these tools, think of as power tools, not the old school handsaw, but like, you know, we're doing it in six seconds as opposed to six minutes. So now I can see, I have these tools and these tools skills do this. And so as I begin to see what these skills can do, then that allows me to do two things.

Number one, it allows me to build confidence, confidence is everything. I'll just tell you this is a guy who's been blessed and I mean this, to just coach people who have called in for years and it's just mind blowing. And I have to coach him in about eight minutes, which is, that's intense, but I tell you what it's taught me, it's taught me how to quickly discern what's going on and get to the

heart of the matter fast. But what I've learned is, is just about every caller or every person I've coached from a live stage, they're sitting there with an alternative, they think is the right choice and

That's what I know. So I'm speaking about confidence being really, really important.

“So once I'm confident, I know what I can do, I'm confident, that's what happens.”

And then clarity starts to come in, you know, you just look at, look at me, I suck in math and science skills. I mean, that part of my brain, I should have my brain study when I die because it's dark. It's just math and science really hard for me.

And so I was always good in the English or the history, much more verbal guy.

So if I'm looking at me and I'm going, what do I do best? Well, communication, verbal skills, all right, so I tell you what I'm not going to be doing. I'm not looking into health and medicine, something I'm looking at medicine or something. So that's the idea. And it gives me clarity.

Oh, I probably am wired to do people work. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the idea. What's so interesting is that we always hear about imposter syndrome, right?

And really, imposter syndrome, in my opinion, is when you're in a job that you don't have the right skills for. You don't have the right talents for it and you feel inadequate because it's not your strength. Would you agree with that?

I think it can be that. Yeah.

Let's take that scenario.

In that situation, you realize I don't think I'm cut out for this because I don't have the talent. It's like me trying a new sport. It was the golf example earlier. I get out there and play enough and play with better golfers.

I'm going to have some doubt as to whether or not I'm ever going to get there. Well, that in that situation is not a syndrome. That's reality. That's really going on. I'm not going to be good enough.

I just don't have the skill set. The mental makeup to be good in golf. So yes, it absolutely can be a sign that I'm glad you brought this up because a lot times, even a guy like me in my world, I'll poo, poo, fear and doubt because they are enemies of progress.

But many times, fear and doubt are protecting us and in the serious scenario, you just

brought up, which I think is insightful. We've got to have enough self-awareness that when we experience doubt, we know whether doubt is lying to us and holding us back or doubt's going on. There's a reason that you have doubt. Your average ed best.

If you bust your ass, you're only going to be average and people don't pay for average.

“Yeah, it's almost like, is this like, a dictionary problem where you need to learn the”

ropes and abbreviations that everybody's using or is this really like a skills problem and it's not your strength? Yeah, I'm getting on the show. I sat down with Robert Greene, Seth Goden, Alex from Mozi, Gretchen Ruben, James Clear, so many epic epic guests.

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It's time to turn those what-ifs into, with Shopify today. Sign up for a $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com/puffeting. Again, that's Shopify.com/puffeting. So, let's talk about boredom and disengagement at work, because I remember last year, so many of my conversations, people were talking about quiet, quitting, and so many people were

quitting their jobs to become freelancers and entrepreneurs. I feel like it's sort of like steadyed out a bit, but talk to us about the problem of being disengaged and bored at work right now. Yeah, I love that you bring up boredom, it doesn't get talked about enough, I think, when we talk about these work trends.

So boredom is just a function of there's just no challenge.

“There's no challenge, and challenge comes at us, I think, with two key characteristics.”

I'm challenged because it's difficult, but I think I got enough jobs to handle it. Or, I'm challenged because I love it so much that I want to take that to the next level. And so, what I mean is, let's go to the guy who's the goat on this. You can't spell his name, I practice it forever, Hala, you'll appreciate this. His name is Mihai Cheek sent Mihai, and I think he's Hungarian or Romanian, but he's got

a very popular TED Talk on the topic of flow, and here's what is research over 30 years

found, part of being in a state of flow, which is near kind of a state of ecstasy, actually. This is not drug or sexual, it is a mental state that he describes, and part of getting to that flow is challenge. It must be challenging so that I am engaged to, I got to really lock in, I got to focus, I got to put a heart, I got to put effort in, I got to be in my best.

So that's the challenge piece, but the challenge and the aptitude or the ability to meet the challenge are the same. And so that's a huge part of this, and so boredom happens when one or both of those are really off, and those be honest with you, boredom happens when we're doing a job that takes very little effort, and so we're scrolling on social media, or we're talking to our coworkers,

because there's just no challenge, there's no challenge mentally, and there's no challenge emotionally.

“That's what I was saying earlier, the mental challenge is obviously it's got to push”

me, and I got to really lock in, but the emotional challenge, too, is like, do I actually give a crap? Does this, does this work that I got to do, actually, is it enjoyable for me, and then does it create a result that I actually think is great? So if you put me on a spreadsheet, I'm telling you, I'm dead, because I'm not naturally

good at spreadsheet and organization and all that stuff, and I could give a crap about organization. I got people around me who do all that, that I love an organization. I'm a creative, so the more I'm bouncing from thing to thing that thing, and I'm engaging with you, that's fun for me.

So that's what boredom does, and so here's the deal. So to wrap this up boredom, we'll suck the sole right out of you, because when a human being isn't challenged, then what happens is they begin to think that there is no challenge to be had, and you kind of just retreat and settle, and it can just remove all it creates a lot of stress, by the way.

That's what's crazy, the more bored you are, the more stress you have. You know, interesting, and I know that you've been really passionate about helping people with their careers for years now. You have multiple books under your belt related to careers, and I read a quote for me that I want to read.

You said, "We are all souls, and we are created to contribute." And if you don't contribute, something that matters to you, then there's something missing. And so we talked a bit about challenge, but talk to us about meaning. Why do we have to have meaning in our work? Because we are spirits, and I don't care where you come from in the world, what your religion

that all humans have is somewhere a long way in our journey.

We all wonder what should I do with my life, and then we also think, "What's the contribution I'm making?" I kind of want to make our mark, and I just think that's the way we're created. I'll just leave it at that.

“I think it's just there, and nobody has to teach anybody to wonder that, because I think”

we all just want to make a difference, and I think all of us, no matter where we're from, race, creed, all of that stuff, and we're in a more divided world than ever, but I think if you're going to find one thing that humans can unify around is, good healthy people, want to help others, it just want to help others. So that is the issue, and so when we look at this innate desire to make a difference, make

a mark, you can say it 80 different ways, then we realize meaning matters so much, give you an example, throughout history, we've seen dictators evil people use meaningless work as torture. I mean, the multiple civilizations just go to your homework. You can pick any time of history, certainly not modern history, but I know of right now,

I know of countries around the world where people are just pounding rocks to pay off debts. Now they're selling those rocks, so that's not what we're talking about. I'm talking about literally meaningless work as torture, so that's a fascinating thing, because it's like, yeah, if there's no meaning behind it, you're like, why am I doing this? And that's psychological torture, not physical torture, and it's fascinating.

And so, why is that? Because we as humans, we just, we're creatures of progress, so if I'm not, here's the danger slope. If I'm not doing work that matters to me, I eventually start to wonder if my job matters, and then it gets really scary, I start to wonder if I matter.

So I think that that's the reason why meaning matters. By the way, the data from Gallup shows up all the time. You know, one of the three human needs that Gallup said that workers have to have met. One of them is meaning and purpose in their work. Two is recognition for their unique contribution, and three is a relationship with their

leader.

Now, well, here's what's funny.

Those three needs, those are all heart stuff, and that just shows our humaneness. Yeah. So related to this point, I think the average age of my listeners is 35, 37, and that's not young. It's not old.

It's sort of in the middle. And I'm sure there's a lot of people tuning in that are like, man, like, I feel like my job is meaningless.

“I feel like my life is meaningless, but I feel like I'm too old to make a change.”

I always say, like, you're never too old to start sending new. I started my podcast pretty late, considering, you know, what were you? I was 30 years old when I started my podcast. That's great. And I did so much in the last five years, you know, I, like, basically dominated the industry

in five years. So, like, a lot, I had a lot of experience and radio and other things before that. So, I started with a head start, but still, like, I got a lot accomplished in that short amount of time. And a lot of people don't realize that in five years, you could do so much.

So, talk to us about that, is there really an age where it's too late to start thinking about a new career? No, I think you're right.

Here's what I've told people when I've coached them on this, because I've had people

in their late 50s. I had a lady call my show recently, it was 61. So here's what I told her. I said, it's not too late.

“The only thing that you've got to adjust is it's not too late to start something new.”

But the amount of time you have to do that thing is shorter, but you've got plenty of time to start it and do it. You just don't have as much time to stay in it. As a 25-year-old, right? At least that needs to be the expectation.

But let's also be honest, you know, certainly don't want to freak anybody out here, but this is the kind of thing that you and I talk about, and then we do, you're not promised tomorrow. You could be 25 and something awful happened to you. You're completely out of your control, and you don't make it to 30.

So from that standpoint, you know, it's like to the 20 something, let's get after it. Don't put all this pressure on you to figure it out in your 20s. But do it. Howl it to do it? I did.

Go do something and work your way up. So to that older person, it's not too late. The only mindset adjustment here is, all right. If I'm starting at X date, then I don't have the runway that I would have had much younger. So what am I going to do?

I'm going to have proper expectations. And so you just, you just measure reality with your timeline of life and go, I may not

And I think that's how you go, all right.

“The time I have left from this point on, I'm going to do something that matters to me.”

And here's what's cool about this.

A hospice nurse in Australia wrote a bestselling book about the regrets of the nine and one of the top five was I didn't live the life that I truly wanted to live. And so I'm a guy that preaches reminiscing over regretting. And so it's at 55 or 65, you still got some time, go do it. So that you can look back, at least on a certain period of your life and go, I'm so glad

that I did that. And not regret that you never took a shot. And also doing it in a smart way, like, for example, using your books and your assessments and things to make sure you know your strengths, you know your passions, you know your mission. And you know, what is a likely path that you'll succeed at rather than sort of just going

at it willy-nilly without a plan. So this is a great segue into some of your works. So before we get into your new book, it's called Get Clear Career Assessment, I'd love to touch on some of your previous works, in 2019, you wrote about the proximity principle. And you say that can change everything.

People thought about they knew pursuing a career that they love. So what are my young and profiteers need to know about the proximity principle? Yeah, we'll start with what the principle is and then what it does. The principle says this in order to do what I want to do, you can fill in the blank there.

I've got to be around people that are doing it and in places where it is happening. Unholy did this, she thought, she wanted to be a singer. So what did she do? She went to the place where they were playing all the songs and it was a brilliant move, right? Now your idea change, but again, what's interesting is that you've also could have used

the radio as that idea of this is the right place. So the proximity principle is about people in places. The right people plus the right places equals opportunity. In other words, if you're constantly getting around the right people, people that are in the space that you want to be in or similar to the space that you think you want to be in,

“that proximity is just there and I think your life is actually a wonderful example of this.”

And you talked about it earlier, because you were in proximity, you pointed it out. It wasn't that big of a departure. You are in fact a performer, your top notch performer. You may only sing for friends and family now, just by the way, I'd love to hear you sing. I think your audience would too.

There might need to be a single coming out later. But anyway, that's my ADHD flare and up, but I think that the issue here is, if I understand that being around the right people is going to allow me to meet more of the right people, being around the right people, they're going to point me to the right places. I go to the right places.

I see I learn and observe, oh by the way, I connect with more of the right people over here. So what you've got is if I were going to draw it up, it would be an arrow here, an arrow here and we don't have the right people in our places. And it becomes this cyclical process of learning, doing and connecting. That's what it spits out and that formula equals opportunity.

To where you do it right, how a people will knock on your door. In fact, some of the coolest experiences I got in my career where I got huge opportunities

were because of proximity, I was the second option, but they needed another option.

But the only reason they thought of me is because I was in the orbit, if you will. So in order to do what I want to do, I got to be around people that are doing it in places where it is happening. In other words, if I'm around the right people and in the right places, the right time will happen on its own.

Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that concept so much. I can think about my my past experiences and I know that's true, like figuring out podcasts and it's like going to all the podcasts conferences, trying to get podcasts mentors, taking calls with every single podcast company and trying to understand what everybody does.

“That's how you become the top of your field.”

I'm curious. Can I flip it on you? Yeah. Cause your audience loves you. They're here for you.

I'm just like the guy gesting today. I'm curious how did the proximity principle play into your specific story where you actually got the gig you got. Now, like it led to the show that's rocking it and you had this meteoric growth. I'm curious.

Well, that's your situation. There's so much that goes into it.

But I mean, first to your point, getting that job at hunt in a seven, I thought I was

going to be a singer and did up learning the ropes of radio took every opportunity that I could where if the DJs wanted me to blog, that was blogging. If they wanted me to come to a party, I was going to the party if they wanted me to sell showcase tickets and host a showcase. I was doing that.

So I was taking my opportunity be avenues is what I call them and getting all these experiences. Also, I wasn't afraid I'm a type of isn't afraid of going out on my own. So I started a blog site, but I didn't start it on my own.

So people who worked at Deaf Jam and I hired and VH1 and then worked with them and learned

from them and started this blog site. Then I went into corporate. That's a whole other story.

“I had like a ghost period of four years where I just didn't think I was going to make”

it. I got rejected from satellite radio, MTV, I was at a show on MTV. So it was like sort of like a dark period, but then I started my podcast. And when I started in the podcast industry, I really, once I decided that I was going to like really do this, I just tried to learn from everyone.

So for example, Jordan Harbinger, who's one of the biggest podcasters in the world. He's one of my best friends. He's my podcast mentor, he came on my show and when he came on my show, I didn't just believe it at that. I was like, what can I do for you?

Can I write your commercials for you? Can I show you how I'm growing my podcast? Can I show you that? Because he's sort of old school and I was like this new school podcaster. So I was trying to teach him stuff.

So he would give me the time of the day. And then finally he was like, wow, like you're really onto some stuff. Like I'll teach you how to grow your show the way that I know and you can teach me how to grow your show the way that you know. And I was just doing things for free to get him as a mentor.

So that was like one of my first big breaks because he taught me all the secrets of growing the show's traditionally, right? And then when I started my network, it was like how can I literally started a podcast network

have never joined a network, no idea how podcast networks work.

So I would just take all these calls with all these agencies. And I would just act like I knew what I was talking about, but try to investigate like what the hell are they doing and piece it together, going to all these conferences and just trying to meet everybody until I figured it all out. It's all to your point.

It's like how do you just get in contact with people who know what they're doing and work for free for them, ask them lots of questions, do favors for them so that they help you in return. So hopefully that was a good example. It is.

No, I mean that is the principle living it out. Throughout the whole story, I could have just circled while you were talking, I could press pause and circled right people that I could be said, right, like we've heard a Jordan or the right person. These women from deaf jam in these massive companies, right people, you know, showing up the podcast called right places.

So yeah, it's a simple little idea.

“And honestly, I didn't expect the book to do as well as it did.”

I was just trying to simplify the climb. Yeah. Like if you just keep showing up around the right people and right place, good stuff's going to happen. It's not romantic.

Yeah. Even it's not even that, it's not even it's just simple, but most people in today's world, they want to fast forward everything because we see a lot of unbelievable fast stories. And those are rare. Those are rare people, you know, because you look like a fast story, because if you just

look at your bio and look at your, it's like, so all these young women could look at you and go, that's what I want to do. She did it. I want to do it. And I go, okay, that's true, but are you aware of what she did, that's not in the bio?

Yeah. That led to everything that she was able to stack together, that then let her go like this. And so, you know, it's like, the challenge for young people and I was young once. Okay.

So I'm like the dad on this podcast. I don't mind. I'm still young. Thank you. I'm older than you probably realized.

Here's what I want you to hear.

I was like the young. So this is not a knock on young people and I can't stand when people, you know, crap on the younger generations, like millennials and Gen Z, it bothers me to know it. Here's the thing. The thing about being young is that you, you don't understand how long things take.

And then you realize, wait a second, successful people, they're willing to do what it takes. Because a lot of you're going, I'll do what it takes. I'll do what Holland did. Okay. But you also waited as long as it took.

That doesn't mean you were sitting around because waiting, by the way, is not a passive posture. It's, it's actually a mature posture. In other words, you get up, you were busting at that radio station. You were going out here doing this, hanging out, I love that on this conversation.

You've mentioned work for free.

“I think five times, and I can't wait to interview you about that.”

It's going to be a huge theme because that is a very controversial position now. In the world of TikTok, because I got a lot of snowflakes that freak out over that. What they don't understand is that Holland was willing to wait as long as it took. In other words, she kept showing up, showing up, showing up, showing up, doing this, doing that, meeting this, learning this, and waiting is an active posture.

It is, I'm going to keep showing up, doing what it takes, knowing that if I keep showing

That's your story. It's your story, too. Yeah, what's every successful woman and man, every one of them, there is a, they don't quit, they keep showing up, and then we look at their story and we go, "Oh, you know, wow, right place, right time, bull, that's not, they were in the right place, and then

the right time found them."

“And so, are you willing to do it if we don't on the street with a camera crew?”

They always say, "Yeah, yeah, okay, are you willing to wait as long as it takes?"

So, that mean, are you willing to show up for five years, seven years, nine years? Not many people are. Yeah. Amazing. Well, let's talk about your 2021 release.

It was called Paycheck to Purpose, another best seller, and in it you talked about talent, passion, and mission, and this is a theme that even now you talk a lot about talent, passion, mission. So, can you define those three words in your own words and tie it all together? Yeah, talent is what we do best.

passion is what we love to do most, and mission are the results. Mission is that result that we care deeply about putting into the world. So, if I use what I do best, talent, to do what I love passion, to produce results that

matter to me, mission, I am by definition on purpose, doing what I'm supposed to do.

Doing what I can uniquely do. The reason I came up with that methodology is through coaching people, and I was trying to help them see, there's a formula here.

“The answer to what you should do in my life lies in those three things.”

What are you good at? What do you enjoy doing? What results move your heart? Hmm. Okay.

So, for instance, an activist, their heart is angered, their heart is broken, angered by an atrocity, broken for the people that are the victims, and so their heart moves them to that kind of work. Your heart, my heart, probably very similar, right? Our heart is, is about a achievement in influence.

Like, we want to help people, we want to help people when here, mediocrity is our enemy, right? So when we understand that last piece, mission, the results that motivate me, we tap into the magic of motivation. So, talent, those are the tools, so that we can do work that we enjoy. We love.

We look forward to the work we get in it when you are singing, when you are on the air, when we are doing this right now, you and I really, really enjoy this communication

“piece, this learning, this digging, how can I learn from, how can I pass this on?”

But the last piece is so important to understand intrinsic motivation, and that's a sense of mission, we all have it. In other words, the person who gets up at five a.m. the morning to work out does it only because they want to. My teenage boys, Hala, only clean their room because they have to.

Do you see the difference? Yeah, I say to them, you're not going out, your friends this weekend, into this bathroom doesn't look like a, you know, a crime scene, like clean it up. You know what I mean? And what do they do?

You know, and then they do it, but that's extrinsic motivation, they do it to avoid punishment or to get something they want, that is going to be withheld from them. So the person who gets up for the reward itself, just because they want to, that's the idea. Those are the three elements, and that's when we can see that about ourselves, that's

when we get true self-awareness. Yeah. Yeah, fam, raise your hand if you've been putting off a doctor's appointment. Yeah, same.

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“You already put out two books about careers, so why did you feel the need to release this”

new book? Because this is actually just a manual, it became a best seller, but we actually wrote this to get the assessment on Amazon. So it was because I wanted to have more distribution because you can't sell a digital product on Amazon.

So kind of a fun lesson here, you got to do what you got to do, and the assessment actually measures those three components, so I'm glad you asked me that. Paycheck to purpose was providing that kind of seven stages of what it looks like to get on top of your professional mountain, and we do it all through getting clear as that first step.

Why developed an assessment? Because I wanted to give people a tool that in about 18 to 20 minutes, you could get a direct report of the world of talent, this is your top three, and then here's where you're above average, in the world of passion, the types of work. Here's where your top three are, here's where you're above average, and your missional

results, there's six driving missions from the world of psychology. I just adopted that, and it kind of tell you, this is your primary motivator, and, and so you get a deep dive report in those three areas, then we put your top results in a purpose statement that is essentially like a job description for you, a dream job description where you can lay it over the world of work and go, does this career path, does this job allow

me to spend most of my day, it's called a 75% of my day, using what I do best, to do what I enjoy, to produce results I care about. That's as simple as it gets, and the assessment does that, and it's a fabulous tool, it's not a personality profile, you notice I didn't talk about personality. It's not going to predict some career for you, because that's crap, junk science, can't

do that, no assessment can, but what it does is give you self awareness, and self awareness is a superpower, because when I can see who I really am and what I have to offer to the world, that clarity will lead to confidence, and confidence will give you courage when you step out, and life throws something at you, courage just isn't this thing that we

we created the tool, the book itself, it's about a 45 minute read, and all it does is catches

you right at your assessment results, the great clear assessment will give you what I just described, and the book is written is the lime coaching you. So how do we take this purpose statement and start to ideate, well, what can I do professionally? Is it medicine? And so we pick up with those questions I gave you earlier, people I want to help, problems

are, they have, and so that the little book is more of a companion to the assessment.

“So that's why we wrote it, honestly didn't expect it to be a best seller, just wanted”

to get the tool out, and so here we stand, and I'm getting an opportunity to talk about what I think is life changing methodology, because it's just, it's self awareness, and here's what I would say to young people, everybody's chasing greatness, and I think it's misguided, but I want you to chase uniqueness, because it is in your uniqueness that your greatness lies.

Oh, I love that. You know what I mean? And because it's your contribution. Yeah, this is so good for anybody who's thinking about making a career change. So again, I think one of the biggest fears is like, oh, I don't want to waste more time.

Well, you stop wasting time by having a plan and having self awareness and kind of thinking through things and not just shooting in the dark, right? So I highly recommend this for everyone, but this is an actionable advice podcast. So what are some questions that people can ask themselves to understand what their core talents are?

Yeah.

What have people always complimented me on?

How do I wow others? You know, let's just rewind, hit the rewind button, and ask those very practical questions, because there's evidence. You know, by the way, and I want to recognize something, for people who have had a lot of trauma in a really tough life, this will take some time to keep asking.

But for most of us who've had a relatively healthy life and not, you know, overwhelmed by challenge, there's going to be multiple times where you can pull up answers. How I wow others. What people say about me when they compliment me, you know, these are basic questions that will reveal right away.

Oh, well, there's a pattern here. And something that I loved in this book that you talk about is super talents, which is something that I've never heard of. So what's the difference between a talent and a super talent?

Super talents are the things that I'm excellent at, just absolutely through experience or

education, or just pure nature. I'm excellent.

“I mean, I'm up here, and that's what we give in the assessment.”

You're top three. That's where we call those your super talents. Now that indicates that below that are some solid talents, let's use a simple analogy. One being suck, ten being great. Okay.

If you were a eight or nine or a ten, I'd call that a super talent. If you were a six or a seven, I'd call that a solid talent. In the form of, if I get more education, more experience, I put some hard work in and I really hone my craft, then I can become super. I'll just be real personal.

Mm-hm. Yeah, what are your secrets? I write. So in the white world, I write books, I write articles, I give keynotes. I do monologues on a show every day.

I coach people live in front of thousands of people, just me and a mic, and it's kind of just, woo, you know, or I'm on the air, and I got eight minutes.

“So that's what I do of those things that I do in my super talents, it would be the discernment”

and coaching piece. When I'm on the spot, and I'm listening to somebody, and I'm asking, and digging, I'm really, really good at that. The other thing that is super talent for me is the actual interview themselves. You know, when I'm interviewing people and pulling stuff out of them, if I'm honest, and

I am, and by the way, I get feedback from my team, my solid talent on that list is the keynote. I'm good. I'm a good speaker. I'm not great.

I'm working to become great, and that's my own analysis, and also feedback. I think you got to be honest about that, writing, same deal. Good writer, not a great writer. So that's the difference between a super talent. Now, I can get better at the speaking and have, and I can get better at writing, and I

have. But I still got more work to do, whereas the other ones, just from my natural talent, and I've had more time, I've got more experience than the other two with the interviews and coaching people than I did with the speaking and writing, so what do you do? You get better at it, but then you also hire really good editors.

So that I can take what I'm good at, which is a monologue, by the way, better at monologues, and I am a 40 minute keynote. I'm better at the quick. Here's three points. So you go, okay, I need help over here with the writing, so I'm going to go higher, really

talented writers, to edit my stuff, and coach me and say, you're missing this here. You're not weaving this in, this needs a story. This is a little too kind of nebulous kind of out that you need to simplify this for the

I think that's the difference, and in my own life, so I got to pay attention to that. Yeah, totally. And it sounds like you're not focusing on your weaknesses at all. It sounds like you're just trying to strengthen your talents and your super talents, and are you focused on your weaknesses at all?

Only to the fact that when we have a new team member join, we just got a new associate producer on my team, and she's awesome.

And on our first meeting, I spent 10 minutes, trashing everything that I do.

That's awful. And she was laughing and she really enjoyed it, and it did two things. Number one, it let her know that I'm aware of these things that I suck at. Being on time, details, can't ever find my own keys in my house. God bless my wife, and I'm just, I'm really open about it.

So I'm only focused on it to tell everybody that I work with. Number one, I'm weak in this area. Number two, I'm aware of it, and number three in order for us to work well, both of us need to be aware of this. And the reason that you're hired is because you're actually strong where I am weak.

So understand our job as a team, for each other, not just for Ken. This isn't all about Ken. All of us have got to say, this is where I'm weak. And to the extent that we remove stuff off of our plate and move it to someone else's plate,

we delegate, we hire for it, or we eliminate it all together.

So yes, I'm not focused on it, but I'm super aware of my weaknesses. And my life, by the way, is organized. I use that loosely, because I'm not very organized.

“But my life is structured probably in a way, and I've got team where, again, I operate”

in my strengths all day long, which is really, really rewarding. And it's freeing. By the way, it's freeing to just go, I suck at this, because by the way, your team already knows. And by the way, because you focus on your strengths to become the top of your field, so

you could get a team to help you with everything else. Yeah. That's a great point. That's the beauty. It's like, in Western, I don't know what, and I'm going to bang on the Western Hemisphere,

because I'm a Western Hemisphere product, so I can make fun of it. I don't see this in the Eastern Hemisphere. I really don't. This is a Western way of thinking, and I'm not trying to philosophize, just hang with me folks, Western thinking is we go to school from kindergarten through 12th grade, and then

it's college, and it's largely the same system. We memorize, and we regurgitate, and they grade us on what we get wrong. So your whole life you've been conditioned to be afraid of getting anything wrong. So what happens is that translates to your weaknesses, you experience a weakness as you begin to go to school, or you try out for an extra curricular activity, and you begin

to experience weakness. Oh, I got to fix that weakness, instead of going, I suck at playing the clarinet. I should probably not play the clarinet. So true. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

But we get conditioned by a Western thinking to work on your weaknesses, and here's what's

crazy. That's not a thing in the real world of work. I don't care what hemisphere you're in. Yeah. It's so good.

So let's go a little bit broader, and talk about the jobs economy in general, and also for some of the entrepreneurs and business owners who listen to the show, I'd love to understand how we can translate some of this into empowering our employees. So first off, I got to talk about AI. I've been doing so many AI episodes lately, and a topic that keeps coming up is AI and jobs.

“So how do you think about AI's impact on jobs and what people need to think about?”

I don't think AI is going to change jobs any more than Apple changed jobs, or pick another technology. Right? It's just the internet. Yeah.

I mean, if you think about it, any time in our history, where you've had a major technological advancement, has it eliminated some jobs? Yeah. Well, yeah. But what did it do?

It spun off more. And so I actually think that AI is going to spin off jobs that you and I can't even imagine and create in our heads right now. I think the job market that my 15-year-old daughter is going to experience is, we don't even know.

Can't even describe it. So I'm not afraid of AI. I would say this.

“I've talked to Chris Doe who I think is one of the great minds on AI, I had him on my”

show, and I just asked him and I'll tell you what he told me. He said, AI, we can't forget that AI's effectiveness is completely predicated on the human who programs it. So AI's ability to do anything is based on a human programming to do that thing. And I think that I'm less concerned about AI replacing your job.

I'd be more concerned about a person who works really well with AI placing your job. I think that's, I still think it's the human component. So for instance, I do believe the experts that say you're going to see a pretty good percentage of clerical jobs, maybe go away, because they can program AI to do all of customer service

aren't even involved, sometimes in the second, even till the second or third level of a job

interview. So is it going to create efficiencies, yes, but you will still need the human to human contact. So I'm not scared of AI from a work standpoint. AI is a relates to warfare that frees me up, but that's not over here to talk about.

That freaks me up, AI in the world of work, no, it's not going to be a bunch of machines doing the work in the rest of us are sitting around eating cheetahs. I don't think that's going to happen.

“Yeah, I think your internet example was so good.”

I mean, if I think about my job now, it's literally 100% based on the internet. There's nothing else. I don't even have any like office or anything, so it's so good.

Okay, let's talk about companies and employers.

So something that I've noticed, I have 60 people on my team now. I've been running my company for like four years and some of the rock stars that I had in my company that used to be rock stars and I love them still. They're still great, but just giving it as an example. Sure.

Star players four years ago, four years later as we've grown so much as a company, I feel like they're struggling to stay developed, right, or evolve with the company. So I sort of see some star players that two years ago, strongest players on the team, now I'm like, oh, you guys are struggling suddenly and you're not keeping up. How can we develop our employees and help them develop their strengths and skills?

Like, what can we be doing as bosses? Yeah. Really good question. Let me give a quick context and then maybe dive in the specifics. I may ask you a couple of questions to fully answer this.

Yeah. I understand as leaders and founder specifically that there are, there are good amount of people who got you there who won't get you to the next level. It is very natural for companies to outgrow some of the key people who actually were fundamental in getting them to the certain spot, but this comes back to, again, talent

passion mission. If you look at the wiring of some of these people that maybe struggling with you now that didn't struggle back here, some of it could be fit. So as the leader you got to go, is this a, is this a fit issue to the point that there's another seat?

And I need to get them on another seat where they are now able to plug into the new version of our company or do they simply just not have the right make up for where the company is and where the company's going to go. That would be from an executive and an leadership analysis, that's my practical advice. And you've got to be okay and sometimes it's really sucks.

I have coached a lot of CEOs on this who I have to say, look, they just aren't, they don't have it. They can't take you where you want to go. Silly example to try to drive this home. I'm big into sports, right?

So it's like, it's like a college football coach comes in and he's replacing another coach who left the net coach ran a very different style of offense and so they had different kind of players. Maybe they were run based, big, you know, big, big guys and it's got a power offense. And this guy comes in and goes, we throw the ball all the time.

So those first couple of years, you know what he's got to do, he's got to go, which one

of these kids can stay with me and adapt and if I, if they can, I got to let him go. And I'm going to go recruit other players.

“That's the simple metaphor there that I think is the issue to answer the second part”

of your question quickly, how do we develop our people? Well, number one, you got to know him. And I really like this methodology that I've shared. We were talking about people trying to find their career, but from a leader standpoint, knowing what someone's talents are, knowing what their passions are, knowing what their motivating

mission is, you kind of got yourself a profile here. And so then you go, okay, where can they grow and let's look at their solid talents. And let's show them, hey, I want to invest in you, all right. I'd like to see you invest in yourself here. This is where you've got some solid talents, but I think with some learning and doing,

you can turn these into super talents. Yeah. That's the idea, constant communication, so that they have awareness. They also know that you care about them and you want them to get better because when they get better, their paycheck gets bigger, at least it should in a health company.

So that's the idea. Yeah, and it's, it's a really smart thing to do as well, because if you find out that maybe

“there isn't a place in your company now, it's the best thing for them to go to a company”

where they will thrive. And it's like part of being a boss is understanding that people are going to work for you forever and you can help guide them in their career. Okay, so last question, two, two part question, and then we'll round this interview out. What do you feel like are going to be the biggest challenges for employers when it comes

to the workplace and also what are the biggest opportunities?

We just, we're in a day and age coming out of the pandemic where we saw so many people job hop. There's this tension in the workplace right now between coming back to work. We're actually back to pre-pandemic levels on people working in the office. So those numbers have shrunk back, so there's this tension because a lot of people still

want to work remote, remote's drying up as a percentage. If we're at a still there, I think hybrid will be the dominant model going forward. But we're in this weird tension, so retention is everything to your point. People aren't going to stay with you forever, but to the extent that we can keep good people longer than we're going to see productivity and profitability go and that's the key

to winning and that's the competitive advantage is people keeping good people longer. And so then the opportunity there is engagement.

The single most important factor to retention is engagement.

If people don't want to be there, they won't want to lead there and so you're hoping

“to develop leaders from within, doesn't mean you have to.”

You can recruit from outside, but we want to create a culture where people want to be there. And people want to be there if they aren't engaged. What does engagement look like? Well, I hate to keep singing the same note, but it's true. They need to be spending three, four, so they're day using what they do best to do it.

They enjoy to produce results, no matter it's your job to get them in a seat on the bus where that's the case. Here's what's going to happen. They're going to be really, really engaged because they're going to enjoy it. Think about that.

That's not a bad day. Okay. And so that's what keeps them coming back because there is truth fulfillment all by the way. There's proficiency because they're good at it and the fulfillment comes in with the love of the work and the work creates a result that they care about.

Now, after that, you've got to care for them. Two questions you're asking every week in a one-on-one. How are you doing? Hmm. That's a personal thing.

Like, Hala, I know your dog's been struggling. That's got to be tough. She's going to make it. You know, whatever's going on in their personal, no one's about them where they go. But Gene and Gene take a day, take a day.

Go, go, be with the sweet pup, you know, until you get a, you know, that's real leadership. How are you doing? It's a personal question. Now, they're not going to give you that right away, but you're asking enough and you show them that you care about them.

They begin to tell you what's going on and for the purposes of not creeping or overstepping, but just, they know that you care about them and you give them what they need as a person. So they're not dragging stress from home into the office. That's key.

“Second question is, what can I do to help you win in your job?”

What can I do for you? You can win. That second question, they'll begin to tell you that, the more you ask the first question, because until they know you care, they won't trust you enough to go, well, I don't feel like my training was long enough and I'm struggling here if I got a little bit more training

on that. I could turn the corner and I could crush it. But that's a, that's a, it's a really tough thing for people to share that's a vulnerability. So I think that right there is where you can get engagement, because then people are saying, I'm cared for here.

I'm valued here. I don't know if I'd get treated that way somewhere else and that will lead to that loyalty and the longevity, which is what we want in engagement.

I think that's the game changer.

I love all of this advice. You gave me so much to think about for my own company. I feel like when it comes to my career, I'm good there, but all the things that you told me about just how other people need to think about their career for me and other entrepreneurs listening, I feel like probably was super, super insightful.

So thank you so much for all of that. I end my show with two questions that I ask all my guests. You can steer away from the topic. It doesn't have to be about today's topic. Just answer from your heart.

The first one is, what is one actionable thing our young profitors can do today to become more profitable tomorrow? Reflect at the end of every day on two questions. Where did I win and where did I lose? Mmm.

So good. I set you up for tomorrow and just really being president enough to go, what did I learn

today about where I want and where I lost and I think it's a game changer.

“And what is your secret to profiting in life and this can go beyond just money and business?”

Being the best version of me and I've got multiple versions, I've got husband, dad, son, brother, friend, co-worker. And if I can continually look to where can I be better in each of those roles, I'm truly profiting. Hmm.

Well, can you are awesome? Like I had so much fun in this conversation, you were so smart, you're so energetic,

Where can everybody go learn more about you and everything that you do?

Yeah, thank you.

“Kencoman.com is the place to connect on all the things and really appreciate you.”

And what you're doing, you are a, your bright star and you're a big screw you to all the people

who said millennials were, they weren't the, they were the generation that was going to be soft on all this.

“And millennials are the number one demographic in the workforce now and you represent them”

well and you're crushing it, you're leading and our economy depends on your generation.

And I'm cheering you on. Oh, thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining us.