Broken Vows (Rebroadcast)

Is this a family on the run or is the truth far more sinister? From ABC Audio in 2020, this is what happens to the mixtaves. Coming August 11th, wherever you get your podcasts, or subscribe to 2020 True Crime Plus on Apple Podcasts for ad-free episodes, early access to new episodes, and so much more. My name is Pamela Smart.

I have been portrayed as black widow, ice princess, a killer, and none of those things could be further from the truth.

“And so just to be clear, did you mastermind the murder against your husband?”

No, I did not, that was then, this is now, and this is new, just this summer. I found myself responsible for something I desperately didn't want to be responsible for it. This story had it all, a beautiful young woman, a seductress of a young teenage boy. The perhaps most importantly, murder. Pamela, do you have anything to do with your husband's murder?

People were asking why this happened, and why Pam Smart could lure a young man into killing for her.

I never would have done it if Andy didn't tell me to.

She was the first girl I have allowed her. I'd put the trigger. God's give me. You're a child to find media friends. This was the first trial to be broadcast alive from start to finish before OJ, before the Menendez brothers.

It was reality TV before there was reality TV. So women would happen. It gets made into a movie. It's a die for, which starred while King Phoenix and Nicole Kidman. Did you get the gun?

No. A lot of people felt like they knew everything about me because they saw the movie. The boys who actually committed the murder are already free.

“How is it fair that someone who pulled the trigger is home and somebody else remains in prison?”

What do you think is your best hope for getting out? So will she do it now after everything else is failed? For me that was really hard. We're going to sit here if that's okay.

I know this is not your first radio.

It was such an notorious crime that I was really intrigued when she agreed to a jailhouse interview. She had been maintaining her innocence for three decades. We're speeding. We all wondered what it would be like to meet this woman. A woman that a jury was convinced had mastermind in her husband's murder.

Spending almost three decades in it, it hurts. You talked about all that you've lost, including the potential to be a mom.

“Yeah, and that makes me sad because I love children.”

I want it to be a mother and now you don't have lost all my years. It seems like the whole world's passing by and I'm still here. Pamela was really the golden girl of true crime in the 90s.

It was a story we had never really heard before.

In the 90s she was right up there with Tanya and Amy Fisher. This was the era of the bad girl for sure. And right around this time is when you've got Madonna doing erotica. And doing the sex work and the idea that women are not the victims of sexual law issues. But they can put notches in the bad post-Same as men can.

The reasons why the crime had taken place. The motivations, the passions that resulted in what happened seem to fascinate people. It all starts in Miami, Florida. My name is Diane Diamond. I am a veteran journalist reporter and I've been covering the Pamela's mark case since the mid-90s.

Pamela is one of three children she has a sister and a brother. Her mother, a homemaker, who took home making very seriously. She was always there. And when we had a problem, we didn't have to wait until she came home from work because she was home. My husband was a pilot. Pam loved to be in with dad.

She was very close to him. She was very happy. She was a sweet child. She had a lot of friends. Kind of happy going lucky. I think so, yes. Then her family moved to New Hampshire.

A low crime rate, beautiful parks, greenery, people are friendly.

Then came time for college. Pam smart decides to return to Florida and she enrolls at FSU. When I went to college, I worked three jobs, 52 hours a week, and graduated from college a year early. Pamela's smart was an overachiever. She received a degree in communication, arts, and her goal

was to be a television news reporter. My aspiration was to be a journalist and to be in the media. She wanted to be another Boba Walters. Didn't we all?

“Don't touch a dial, you're listening to WPFS. How a hassle?”

In 9.7 FM. She was a DJ on the college radio station, and she has to not one, but two different radio shows. I did the rock show at night. She loved Van Halen. She loved Motley crew. Her molecule was the maiden of metal.

I didn't go to college and go out partying. I worked all the time. So you skipped adolescence. I kind of skipped relationships. I had no boyfriend in college until I met my husband, and that was it.

In 1994, everybody wanted to hear from Pamela Smart. Okay. She gave her first interview to my colleague Diane Sawyer. Well, no big question going to go on. How did you meet Greg Smart?

“I met Greg when I came home for Christmas during a break one year.”

Originally I wasn't attracted to him, but I then became attracted to him. What about him?

He was very outgoing and always smiling.

He seemed fun to be around. He was a rocker. The long hair, the attitude. She loved him. She said, "You know, mom, he's the one we liked him too."

Greg of Pam Smart bonded over Van Halen songs like, "You really got me." "You really got me down." Hot for teacher. I've got it back. So great.

I've got it too. Greg seemed very glamorous to her. He had this magnificent head of hair.

“That's the guy Pam told me she fell in love with.”

So what does he do? He lives down and moves to Florida to be with me. There's something very innocent and very normal. They're very sweet about him. The fell in love.

They dated for a while. He came down to Florida to be with her. He wasn't interested in going to college. He was just interested in being with Pam. It's a relationship that heats up lightning fast.

But it fizzles out almost as quickly.

He would never know that in less than one year, Greg Smart would be murdered.

Greg and Pam got married on May 7, 1989. We give him a very beautiful wedding. We look forward to having grandchildren. Pam Smart was decked out like Princess Diana. The big, poofy, white wedding dress.

He was handsome and a steel gray, tuxedo. When you look at the photographs and the video of that wedding, I don't know that I've seen a happier couple. I was only 21 years old when I got married. I was very much in love with my husband.

I thought that Greg and I would have a fulfilling future that we would have a family and children. Do you fulfill married to your husband? I do. It's weird that you would ask me that because I was just filling out an application for something for in here yesterday.

And it says, "Are you married?" And I put yes, you know, and date a marriage. Because I am still married, I'm widowed, but I'm still married. A couple moved back to New Hampshire. They moved into a very well-to-do neighborhood in a beautiful condominium.

During New Hampshire's nickname is The Space Town. It's named because it was the home of Alan Shepard, the astronaut. The poet Robert Frost comes from there. Something we were withholding made us weak. Pamela got a job with the public school system.

She's introducing students into television. She was able to write press release. She was able to create content. This job by no means was what her career ambition was, but it was a stepping stone. I had a very good job. I made a lot of money for myself.

I was 22 years old. I had a 40-something-year-old secretary. I had a job work. I had four weeks paid vacation, met full medical dental. All of that. I was my own boss. I really made my own money. Greg sort of settled down a little bit. He cut off his long hair. He went into the respectable insurance business with his father.

So years later, when Pam Smart's case is so infamous, there are TV movies being made about it.

There's a scene in murder and new hamster where Greg's haircuts is made out to be the first son of trouble.

“I remember exactly filming that scene on the doorstep when Greg comes home.”

Pam looks at him and hardly recognizes him. He's sure he's cut everything off. And instead of being pleased, she's absolutely horrified. I can't hear him. What happened to your hair? The barber's still sweeping it up even as we speak. He's got an haircut because he's gotten a job. Horrified, she goes, "You cut your hair." And he says, "I made a look like Donald Trump, but I still feel like John Pancho."

She may have dated a rocker, but she married an insurance agent. Real life sets in. He became an insurance salesman. She got a good job. Pretty soon it was a routine. It seemed that this couple had everything going for them. Good jobs and nice rented home, good furniture. They even had a little dog.

So on the surface, it looks great. It's just not going to turn out that way. Greg was working a lot. And he would work at night. Go to people's homes, pitch insurance policies, and Pam was left alone.

When she first met her husband, he was kind of a rocker rebel,

which is why she was drawn to him.

“And then after marriage, segwayed into this very traditional role.”

Her mother later told me that during this period, it seemed like Pam finally stopped focusing on just work and became more social, but a little, immaturely social. She started to hang around with the high school students when she went to work every day. Greg's working all the time. Pam was hanging out with teenagers.

This marriage is getting bumpy. They were very young, which probably helped their marriage to deteriorate. Clearly there was a dynamic that wasn't working. In her first year of marriage, her husband had come home and talked to her about having an affair.

And I think it crushed her deeply.

I was very much in love with my husband from the time he was my boyfriend through when he was my husband. And he hadn't affair. And when that happened, I was devastated. I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought that I wasn't good enough.

So she was feeling like her husband had betrayed her. In that exclusive interview with Diane Sawyer, Pam Smart remembers the night. Her husband didn't come home from work. One night, I went to bed and I was expecting him to come home. And when I walked that next morning, he wasn't there.

He was out with a friend of his. And he had been drinking, so he decided to stay at his house. And it turns out that that wasn't what happened. What did happen? He had met someone and he had stayed with her the night.

Was he sorry? Was it a fight? What happened? That was very angry. And I was very hurt. Did it change the marriage?

“Well, I believe it made me less trustworthy.”

It had to affect on myself a steam. I had thought originally that it was just, you know, he and I. And now I realized that someone could come between that. And I was scared of that. When he cheated on her, it obviously broke her heart.

And changed her, changed the marriage. That's the turning point in this story. His affair. Pam had no idea that a chance encounter was about to change her world forever. And I fell in love with her.

On May 1st, 1990, Pamela is at a school board meeting. She gets home about 10 o'clock. She goes to the front door and she notices that the light is out. This is odd. And she opens the front door and in the vegetable is her husband.

She starts banging on doors.

Somebody called 911, hurry, hurry. My husband, my husband.

“I was working as an investigative reporter in New Hampshire and scanner radio goes off.”

And we understand that a young man has been murdered inside his condominium. The telephone calls came from very police department all came from neighbors who heard a screaming and yelling. Pamela is outside. She's sobbing. She wants to know what's going on.

Is there a burglar in the house? Is Greg okay? Is he breathing? What's happening? Pam's smart found his body.

He was in the entrance way to his condominium. He was sprawled out on the ground.

The first thing that we noticed was the body of the victim, Gregory Smart.

There appeared to be a blue towel wrap around his head. It's got a bullet wound in the back of his head. This looks like a mob hit. This is an execution.

“Right away, police had no idea who could be responsible.”

In most cases, pretty quickly the murders make sense. Somebody's involved in gangs or drugs or there's a history of domestic dispute in their lives. In this case, here's this young man at the beginning of his life and career in insurance. He's not married a year yet to a lovely young woman and he's dead. The police were groping for leads at the time.

He had apparently expired. They determined almost immediately. Pam called the house and she was hysterical. And she screamed into the full mom come quick. Greg's dead.

Inside, I was trembling and I thought, well, maybe there's been an accident. People in that house that night told me that she was a wreck. She was an inconsolable mess. She did seem extremely shaken at the time. Extremely emotionally destroyed.

She was soaking wet, her clothing from sobbing. We were all a mess saying, how, why? Is it true?

“In that first interview with Diane Sawyer, Pam Tom.”

Talks about the tragic night. What happened to Greg is the most horrible thing I've ever gone through in my life. And I'm still haunted every day by memories of what must have happened to him inside our house before he was killed. And although I wasn't there, I feel that because of that,

I'll never know how Greg was feeling at the time.

I keep thinking of how afraid he must have been. And how senseless this whole tragedy was. A lot of times I still can't even believe that he's gone. Greg's heart still has all the clothes from work. He looks like Greg must have walked into the middle of a botched, screwed up, burglary.

We noticed that several things were moved. The stereo system had been ransacked. CD's were laying in the floor. Pillow cases had been ripped open. Yeah, stuffing had been removed.

We found that the upstairs as well had been ransacked. The dresses had been gone through completely. However, police find that Greg still has his wallet. He still has a gold wedding band on his hand. Pamela reported nothing much was missing except a few little pieces of her jewelry.

This is not a usual burglary. Usually burglars in this region don't carry firearms or guns. They're not playing on any kind of confrontation at all. There was no forced entry at the front door or the back door. No signs, no disturbances of someone breaking in.

Something just doesn't seem right here. Kitchen chef's knife is stuck into the ground. They found a marijuana cigarette a reaper in his car. Maybe there's drugs involved. Dead end.

The next lead is that Greg bite of had a gambling problem. They search phone records and they find that he had been calling a gambling service to go to Atlantic City. Maybe he owed somebody money. Again, dead end.

Nothing there. So every single lead that we got. All of them went to dead ends. At that point, they really are searching. And asking the public's health.

Because they frankly don't have a break and they need one. A dead body killed execution style. That is a stunner for dairy consumption.

something strange happens at his wake.

A group of unidentified teenage boys show up. And everyone's thinking, "Who are those guys? And what's their connection to Greg?" So after weeks of investigating by the police. And nothing is happening.

Nothing is popping. No new information. Suddenly out of the blue. A man walks into the police station with a 38 caliber revolver. And he says, "This is my gun."

“And I think it was used in the Gregory Smart murder case.”

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Nightmare Next Door, a podcast from ID, tells the real stories of murders that sent shockwaves through small town America. On every episode, investigators, witnesses and family members close to the victims to discuss the disturbing details of each case and exactly what happened. Peel back the peaceful facade of small towns and find out what secrets your neighbor is hiding.

Listen to Nightmare Next Door, wherever you get your podcasts. When ever news breaks, we are here in Israel at Nation at War. In Rolling Fork, this tornado tore through this town from Louis and Man. The scene of a horrific mass shooting from the scene of that deadly mrs. strike ABC News Live everywhere. In Iceland, with God.

On the 2024 campaign trail. Here at 10 Downing Street, wherever the story is. We're going to take you there. Your streaming ABC News Live. ABC News Live.

For streaming ABC News Live. ABC News Live. Streaming free everywhere. Part of B is missing. And that's great.

It's gone forever.

And you'll never be back.

“Well, I remember it was a rather chilly day.”

But it's always kind of very cool in New England. But this day seemed colder. We have all these young people and they're all crying. I didn't want to be covering this funeral. I didn't want to be anywhere near it.

Throughout the day, I kept seeing. I had this big vibrant, beautiful smile. We can't sleep. I don't want to eat. I don't feel as much left in my life.

Pamela Smart is struggling. It seemed to me to even make it down the walkway. She was crying so hard. It was a horrifically emotional moment. There is footage of me coming out of the funeral crying.

So that my father's holding me on one side. And my sister's holding me on the other. And I did lose my husband that I did marry. And he did love me. And I loved him.

There's no answers. And the police can't give them any answers. And that made their grieving that much more difficult. He didn't deserve this. All I want is the people who did this sent to jail forever.

All of these people are just shredded. Just racked with a motion over this horrendous thing. Never forget this. It's just a few days after Greg's murder.

“And my news director goes, "I guess you'll be interviewing Pamela Smart today, right?”

I will have a story with you and her." And I'm like, "Yeah, that's going to happen." He just joking with me. And honest to God, like three minutes later, over the loudspeaker. I hear Bill Spencer, you have a phone call.

It's Pamela Smart.

Pam gave her first media interview to a local television reporter six days after Greg was murdered.

She wanted people to know the type of person he really was.

“At that time, she appears perfectly together.”

She has on a pretty little outfit. Her makeup is perfect. I feel like in a whole condominium complex like ours, somebody must have seen or heard something. Everybody's saying they didn't hear or see anything.

I keep thinking that I'll see him walking, but every day and every second that passes. I realized that that won't happen. And yesterday, I went out to the cemetery. And that's kind of, you know, when it really hit me, that he won't ever come back.

She does appear introspective. She does appear to miss her husband. You know, it's awful to just think about what happened in there. You know, the only comfort I have is that, you know, it just seems to have been a situation where Greg didn't know what was happening.

And he just never knew, you know, when it was really quick.

We usually don't like to bring animals or get dogs in your interview shot. But Pam invited Halen to come over. It's a fuzzy dog. And we did the whole interview with Halen sitting right there next to us. She named her dog Halen because she was a Van Halen maniac.

Sometimes I ask myself, I can't figure out where the strength is coming from. But it seems like it's coming from inside maybe. You know, maybe it's a part of Greg that helped me go on with everything. The interview kind of comes and goes with no fuss. No new witnesses coming forward.

Until. Then big break for police comes on June 10, 1990, about six weeks after the murder. Out of the bleak. A grown man walks into the police station. But it's not the dairy police station.

It's the seabrook police station. It's about 40 miles away where in walks this man. He's carrying a handgun in his hand. And he says, this is my gun.

“And I think it was used in the Gregory Smart murder case.”

They immediately call the investigators in. And this would turn out to be the major break in the story. And he proceeds to tell the investigators that he had this gun put away in his house. And when he went to retrieve it, it looked like it had been freshly cleaned. And he knew he had not cleaned it.

So how did this happen? The man tells police that his son's friend, a teenager by the name of Ralph Welch, told him that the gun may have been used to kill Greg Smart. Police immediately get the gun. They do a ballistic comparison.

The two bullets match up. The test show that that gun is the weapon that killed Greg Smart.

It is probably the most important physical piece of evidence they're going to find.

This is big break for the police. That very same day, June 10th, 1990, the police haul in that teenager Ralph Welch for a videotaped interview. Okay, it's June 10th, and it's 1524. I was by my watch.

I'm Detective Barry Cherowitz, and with me is Ralph Welch. So Ralph Welch tells Detective Barry Cherowitz about a sequel conversation he had with the son of the man who turned in that 38 caliber revolver. 2017, he told me in a story how it happened to us here.

“So police get Ralph Welch talking, and remember he's a teenager talking to cops, and he spills it all.”

He told you the story about what about how he told me how they did it, how they did what killed Greg Smart. Ralph Welch tells police about learning of three teenage boys who went to Greg Smart's house that night with the intent to murder him. These are the three boys that Welch names in that interview. Billy Flynn, Pete Randall, and Vance, aka J. R. Latamy.

It's especially startling because they're just high school kids. Latamy supposedly waited in the getaway car. So I went there and they broke into the police. And they set it up to make it look like burglary, and I guess the guy who tried to murder something. And they grabbed him, he threw his dog in the cellar.

Pete said he held the guys head on those shoulders. The juveniles that were involved in the murder, beginning with Billy Flynn. All of them had specific problems in their lives or with the police to the silver police. They were familiar with these, the kids involved already.

Pete said he held this head. Did he say how he held this head? No, it just said he held it. He held the trigger. But why? What was the alleged motive? Well, it seemed to know that too. Did they tell you anything else about it? This was beginning some insurance money or something.

This is just what they said in Pam, like 500 or something.

“And yeah, 500 dollars, what Pam was paying them or that's what they said she was going to pay.”

Didn't you talk about Pam, who's Pam? The guy's had a wife, okay, Pam's mine.

Ralph Welsh is the first one who mentions Pam's smart name.

Did Pam pay him anything else? I just said something about insurance money or something. He mentioned like 500 dollars a piece. This video taped interview with Ralph Welsh blows the lid off the case. As police begin to dig, a clue may lie in of all places

and amateur orange juice commercial that Pam helped some of the high school students produce. This is the beginning of time. Man has enjoyed the taste of pure and natural Florida orange juice. The police have finally got a direction in which to take this investigation. This was beginning some insurance money or something.

Pam, like 500.

“This explosive video taped interview gives police a clear motive”

and implicates Pam with smart in her husband's murder. Yet it comes as no surprise to police who already think that Pam has been acting bizarrely from the moment they started talking to her. We met with her in an interview room and she began immediately to tell us when she opened up the door. She saw that this must have been a burglary because there was speakers off of Stan.

It seemed kind of strange that she had keyed in on speakers missing from a stand. It seemed at the time that her focus should have been on her husband who was laying there. Police noticed that Pam didn't seem to be very emotional when they finally got a chance to interview her just hours after her husband had been murdered. You weren't emotive enough for people's taste.

Yes. What do you make of all that? Well, I wasn't very emotional. I think I was in shock. You were the ice princess.

Right.

“And I think that people's perception is interesting because”

I was watching something where it was JFK's funeral and Jackie Kennedy onassus was standing there.

But she never shed a tear and everyone was like, "She's so stoic."

You know, nobody said she was an ice princess. There was no proof that Pam was smart at anything to do with this. But her actions really did make a lot of people including investigators step back and say, "Wait a minute. Does she have something to do with this?"

My law enforcement friends told me that after I interviewed Pam Smart that she became even more of a prominent suspect in their eyes because of what she said in that interview. And they said specifically, she talked about things that she couldn't have known about. It just seems to have been a situation where a great didn't know what was happening.

She knew critical factors about what that crime scene looked like. How could she talk about what this apartment looked like when she wasn't allowed in there that I expected that she would be breaking down.

And yet that emotion never came.

Sometimes I ask myself, "I can't figure out where the strength is coming from." But the weirdest part of the interview was we were talking about Greg. And she said something to the effect of, "If you think about it, this couldn't have happened at a better time." You know, there's no better time in his life for this to happen.

And I said, "What? This couldn't have happened at a better time because if you think about it, had we been married for 20 years. I would have loved him that much more." I couldn't wrap my mind around that. When the murder first happened, you brought the media into your home.

And gave interviews. Well, no, I talked to one person, Bill Spencer. He was pounding every day, calling us, saying that he was running with a story that Greg owed gambling debts in Atlantic City. And he owed money to the mafia. And they were saying, "Are you going to give us a comment?

And it was like, "Wait a minute, my husband's not even buried.

“What do you mean you're running with the story?"”

Because we went to Atlantic City a lot. But he didn't owe anybody any money and he wasn't killed because of that.

I was pressured basically to try to defend him.

So I did. I wouldn't say a pressured panelist smart into doing that interview at all. That call came to me. I didn't make the call to her that morning. She called me.

Pam has an answer for everything the police called suspicious. So, who do you believe? The police definitely don't believe Pam Smart.

There's a whole lot of smoke, but no fire yet.

They have the video taped interview from a high school kid who said she offered $500 from her. They find her an interview peculiar, but none of this adds up to murder until they make a stunning connection. So, these boys, it turns out, our students at the same school where Pam Smart works. Not only do these kids go to win a kind of high school, where Pamela Smart works. She's close to them because she's working in a school project with them.

Now, there's a connection between the gun, the three boys, and Pamela Smart. Pam meets Billy Flynn through this project of steam that she is running at when a kind of high school. She talks to teenagers about their troubles. It tries to help them with their issues. There's a gigantic dichotomy between dairy, new hamster, where Pamela Smart lives.

And, Seabruck, where Billy Flynn and these boys lived, Seabruck is a gritty working class area. And, incomes Pamela Smart, and she must have same white, a fairy princess. So, Billy Flynn is 16 years old. He's attending when it kind of high school. He plays guitar. He wants to be a rock musician. There's nothing imposing about this guy. He's a skinny guitar playing teenage.

I met Bill who was kind of making me feel like I was the greatest thing on the earth. He was charming. He was, and I guess at that point I was so low that I needed that boost that you were vulnerable. Yeah, I was. Pam learned about a contest for high school kids, and which they made a commercial about orange juice.

“So, she got the kids together and said, hey, you can win a trip to Disneyland if you want to make this commercial.”

Pam already knows Billy because she's in this project self-esteem with him, and she asked him to be the cameraman. This put Pam and Billy in very close proximity. She directed it. He wrote the music for the commercial. He still needs energy to find a way to keep him safe and staying healthy. I met him and I threw out the day. The Florida orange juice was in the wind. Amy Pam's smart and she's beautiful. She's intelligent. She's an adult.

And she likes me. As the police begin to dig, they can't help but wonder about the strange hold that Pamless smart has on these teenage boys, especially the long-haired kid, Billy Flynn. The cops soon discovered that Pamless smart has been having an ongoing elicid affair with her teenage student Billy Flynn. But another student from that very same high school is about to betray Pam with a secret recording.

They have a 22 year old woman who's having an affair with a 16 year old boy. And that boy is tied to the murder weapon.

“This young boy who was having an affair with her believes that she has told him that the only way we can be together is if you kill my husband.”

Well, act like I just used him, went larking through the school, looking for somebody to manipulate and it wasn't just really wasn't even like that. Decades of denial, but now, new, just this summer, a last-ditch effort to change the narrative. Really boils down to this. Pam Smart is asking for the opportunity, the chance, to express remorse, and to discuss her transformation over 34 years from a 22 year old, to a thoughtful, accomplished mature 56 year old woman. A lot of people felt like they knew everything about me because they saw the movie.

Did you get the gun?

I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own mind, in my own heart, how responsible I was, because I had deflected blame all the time.

Billy Flynn, Vince Latamay, and Pete Randall. The police have now identified the murder weapon and they trace it back to those three boys.

This is what enabled them, basically, to get these arrest forms.

There is a fourth suspect. Raymond Fowler was in the Getaway car. Fowler ended up being charged, but other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time, he seemingly did not have much to do with the murder itself. Remember, police have been told that these boys were mere pawns, and that Pam Smart had put them all up to it.

“But what was the motive? Why would they kill Smart?”

I'm going to go straight to Pam's condominion and get her reaction. But totally devastated by this icon. I was boggled by a reaction. Wait a minute. They've solved your husband's murder and you're destroyed. I thought, oh my God, they had the wrong person.

You thought Billy was innocent. I thought there was no way.

These three teenagers are in custody, but they are not talking to the police. Normally, you get three teens that are arrested for something this serious. One or all of them are going to sing. They're going to tell exactly what happened because they're teenagers. And then out of the blue, a break in the case. Police actually get an anonymous phone call.

“She said the woman had planned it, and there was someone that knows all about this and her name is Cecilia Pierce.”

Cecilia Pierce is a teenager who goes to a when-to-cut at high school. She is the intern of Pamela Smart. They've worked together on that OJ video.

Police interviewed Cecilia, and that recording appeared in a documentary for Discovery ID,

called Pamela Smart, an American murder mystery. The revelation she makes are stunning. How did you find out about the affair? Pam from the shooting of the bill. And I think that was the worst.

Bill Flynn was a juvenile, just 16 years old. Cecilia tells police that one night, she, Billy Flynn, and Pam Smart are watching a movie, nine and a half weeks.

“During the movie, Pam Smart and Billy Flynn go upstairs.”

Cecilia follows and actually walks in on the two having sex. This is a bombshell. Imagine what the police are thinking at this point. They have a 22-year-old woman who's having an affair with a 16-year-old boy. And that boy is tied to the murder weapon that was used to kill the woman's husband.

These are big pieces of a puzzle they're put together here. You were technically an adult and he was under a. Absolutely. That relationship seems predatory. It was totally wrong.

It was actually very difficult because I had feelings for my husband. I loved him and I also had developed feelings for Bill. And I knew that I couldn't continue like this. It wasn't going to work like this forever. It was only a short relationship.

I had several bombshells in this case but another one is about to explode. Cecilia reveals that she has heard the whole story, the conversations between Billy Flynn and Pam. And that she has heard that Pam wanted to get rid of Greg. The courting to Cecilia Pierce. Pam was a smart plan, the entire murder.

She's the mastermind. We're going to conduct an audio surveillance. One family is smart. You're doing a confidential informant. They decide to ask Cecilia to get wired up.

Where a taping device under her clothes. And she goes to visit Pam at her office. The trap is set. Will Pam fall in? Hey.

Cecilia tells Pam that the cops have called her in for questioning about the murder.

She doesn't deny it. Nothing. That's very telling.

Let me tell you how adam whack I was.

Okay. The day before this, I had a lawyer. And he calls me up and he says, whatever you do, don't talk to her. Because she's coming in and she's going to be wired. That's an astonishing admission.

She says her lawyer warned her. Cecilia's dangerous. She could be wearing a wire if you talk to her. And yet she still does. Why would you need that if, in fact, you did have nothing to do with it.

And you weren't part of all of this.

“Now, remember Cecilia acknowledges that she knew in advance about the murder.”

And that's when Pam issues with seems like an ominous warning.

I'm just like a lion, you know. You know what? I can tell you that she's trying to show up in the midst of the murder. Right? Yeah.

I'm not going to be on the way to death. I'm just going to control her ass. I'm just not going to be on the way to death. No. Let's get out of the [bleep]

to the sea outside. We get to the right. Pam is really concerned about Cecilia now.

“So, she's telling Cecilia to basically lie.”

[inaudible] Sounds like you're in intensive. My great brilliant idea that I had was that I was going to go in and have these conversations with her to make her feel like more comfortable. So, she could tell me whatever she was going to tell me.

All I wanted to know was that this guy really killed my husband because I saw more than anything I wanted this not to be true because I felt responsible.

Ultimately, the wire that Cecilia Pierce wore became the reason

the police were able to go and arrest Pamela Smart. The good news is we've got the person that murdered your husband. The bad news is it's you. You're under arrest. Hey, moms.

“Looking for some light-hearted guidance on this crazy journey we call parenting.”

Join me, Sabrina Culberg. And me, Andy Mitchell, for pop culture moms. We're each week. We talk about what we're watching. And examine our favorite pop culture moms up close

to try to pick up some parenting hacks along the way. Come laugh, learn, and grow with us as we look for the best tips. And maybe a few what not to do is from our favorite fictional moms. From Good Morning America and ABC Audium. Pop culture moms.

Find it wherever you get your podcasts. I'm not super troopers 3. Me out. Only in fifth and rated up under 17. Not admitted without fifth.

I found out my grandfather's Charles Manson. A whole new original true crime documentary. I submitted my DNA to unlock my grandfather's sealed records. This is all the phone calls that I had with Charles. She's the key.

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Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. Police are now ready to arrest Pam Smart. But first. They have Cecilia caller at her office one last time.

On that call, Pam does confess to feeling guilty about something.

But it doesn't have anything to do with her husband.

“It doesn't see me when I get out of the habit.”

I couldn't avoid it. It's pretty totally dominant in the roads. That's all I do. Overcaring the women. Yeah.

Well, it's real kill. I can't feel bad for when you don't have it. But no, don't break. I can't feel bad for them. But so bad about the rampant.

That afternoon, the police arrive at Pam's office. And she has a lot more to answer for than running over a rabbit. Exactly three months from the day that her husband was murdered, on August 1st, 1999.

The police finally arrest Pam with Smart.

I was really not worried about it. Because I knew that I hadn't done anything wrong. I'm thinking this is going to get straightened out. She was charged with accomplished a first degree murder. But at this point, the case against Pam is entirely circumstantial.

The boys are in custody, but they are refusing to speak. They have convinced themselves that they will go free once they turn 18. If they just keep their mouth shut. They suddenly learn. And the prosecutors are telling them that doesn't matter.

They're teenagers. We are going to try you as adults. They were looking at a lifetime in the penitentiary. Suddenly they got very chatty. They changed and they became her accuser.

And she became the person who planned it all. And then they were able to make a deal with the prosecution for lighter sentences. Sometimes, to put the devil in jail, you got to go to hell. To get your witnesses. Put those under bed.

She gave her... ...that it's him who helped me get involved with a divorce. And I picked what I had. Get back home. And then he kept her.

She didn't know what I was saying. Just as no way that they would take it. How could we live in a place you shouldn't break your life. You know, my recollection of Vance Latamy was... ...wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

“You know, you had to sit there and wonder how did you let yourself get involved in this?”

Um, but he was extremely loyal to Belle. And he had to go to the campsite hospital. Yeah. I went in and ran into your ministries of the hospital. But the problem with the speed of the hospital.

So I went into the hospital. She didn't find me. When I... How did it go? And they were screaming back and forth.

And they had that. Because she said, "That place you're going to have to have it done." You listen to those interrogations. And you're struck by how they say Pam was just... ...termant to get this done.

How often did you talk to him? I've been. I've been. You're not the one to be there. She said you didn't know.

She started yelling at me.

She said, "Well, if you're never going to do this, I want to go right now.

It's like you know." So we can end this right now because I don't want it. And we'll have this. Billy Flynn comes across as a kid. Trying to act like a man.

Because he's in a man's relationship with Pam's smart.

“And I think he wants to stand up and prove to her that he's that guy.”

But finally, police get down to the deed itself in the interrogation room. So, a lot was made of this $140,000 insurance policy that this was about sex and greed. Right, which makes no sense whatsoever. Because I had a very good job. I made a lot of money for myself at that age that I was.

I mean, I guess everybody needs money, but I really made my own money. The teens lay it all out. They say Pam told them to ransack the house and make it look like a robbery. The teens interrogation tapes were text book classic. They revealed every detail.

So did they concoct this as teenagers frequently do to protect each other? Yeah, it wasn't us, it was Pam. Or did Pam really help them?

So now, since the boys have turned, they have enough to take it to trial.

The trial was a sensation.

“The local station WMUR starts to pream to cell-bopper as to cover this trial”

because what they have is a cell-bopper taking place in the courtroom. Spectators have been arriving shortly after midnight just to get a seat. What can you do in your right hand? I had a nightstander. What happened next?

I was just kind of stoked.

1990, you know, that means we've got the hair bands beginning to give way to crunch out of Seattle. Bands like Irvana. So it was like cheers or popular. There's a doggy dog world semi, and I'm more and no phone underwear. In New Hampshire, the local station WMUR starts to pream to cell-bopper as to cover this trial.

I turned, I spent the entire evening with my six and gorgeous husband. Because what they have is a cell-bopper taking place in the courtroom. The case at all of those elements, sex and betrayal and murder. The trial was a sensation in part because it was at the dawn of cameras being in the courtroom. And so people could tune into their local station in New Hampshire.

Watch wall-to-wall coverage. It ushered in a hony era, a hony genre for TV, court trials. And before you know it, it becomes kind of nationwide news. The media coverage was intense. In New Hampshire, Pamela Smart is on trial and what seems like the plot to a very bad movie.

It was a tsunami of attention. Most of it was negative. Many people, very likely, had already formed an opinion of Pam Smart before the trial ever started. We did not have a jury that was sequestered, so naturally we were concerned that they were going to be affected. Ladies and gentlemen, it was that woman who initiated, orchestrated, and directed by her husband. According to the state, Billy Flynn committed murder because Pam Smart put him up to it,

luring him with money in sex. But according to the defense, Billy Flynn committed murder out of a jealous rage.

“What will be coming before you from prosecution witnesses?”

Will probably be one of the most vital concoctions ever assembled in one corner in the state of the country. The main takeaway that we wanted the jury to get is that the state of New Hampshire made a deal with the devil. The prosecutor made a plea deal agreement with Heat Randall and Billy Flynn, the two who had actually committed the murder. J.R. Latamy, who was the getaway driver, also cut a deal. By pleading guilty and agreeing to testify, they had a chance at getting out of jail someday, and they took it.

Next third voice would you please state your name, so that everyone in the jury box didn't hear anything.

Patrick Allen, Randall came across as a little more matter of fact, some people described it as cold. I'd like to call your attention to make first 1999. Can you tell me what you did after school? I went to April to pick up J.R. Latamy's car and ordered it to go to the jury to kill her. The goal is to show that Pam Smart, with evidence beyond a reasonable doubt, masterminded this murder.

“Can you tell us what we said to the defendant that he said to you?”

She told me that she think the back was unlocked, not to hurt her dog. And that we could ransack her apartment, the kind of a take over the wanted, and we forgot to come home and when Greg came home we were killed. I felt that Stadden Greg would be a lot easier than shooting him and told me that if I was to Stadden, it probably would get blooded up and not to get blood on the sofa. It was downright strange to listen to him, describe so matter factly, so unemotionally, him participating in the killing of Greg Smart.

When Greg came into the door, he opened up the door and called his dog. And he was wrapped in a pull-to-man house, and he was screaming and trying to run out.

He just told him his dog was okay, don't worry your dog.

“Randall says he then holds a knife to Greg's throat and orders him to hand over the wedding ring he's wearing.”

Tell me you can give it to me. What? He said his wife would kill him. He just looked sinister. You know how a shark his eyes don't look like they're living, looks like he's dead.

What happened next? I was supposed to cut his throat. Did you do it that time? No, I did not. Why not?

Why can't you do it? Because of some things he said, and because I couldn't do it. What happened after that? He just took the gun out and shot him. He certainly came across as someone who didn't seem as bothered as you might think he would be for having been involved in this crime.

“Because you're the only taking part in this murder.”

Bill was my friend and I didn't want to see him get caught coming from the murder and there were financial gains. Your peers have a huge influence on what you do and don't do. But Billy was probably admired. The power of teen friendships is very strong. You get a bunch of misguided kids who feel like they've shown up for one another.

That they're helping one another. They may not truly understand that committing homicide.

Cross is a line that should never be crossed.

Stay close, man. Latamy was a bit different in that he wasn't there for the actual murder. He was in the car outside. The man was asked how should she react. She can tell me the time is growing dead. She asked if she was clean.

You get a sense of just how amateurish these teens were. Latamy made fun of Randall and Flynn for buying latex gloves that were too thin to even hide their fingerprints. Why was that funny? He said the stuff was stolen but it's got to stay close down. Each of their fingers and then put the gloves on.

To prevent fingerprints. You know, in every big trial, there's that one aha moment. The moment everybody remembers was Simpson. It was the glove. In this case, it was Pam Smart. And a white, strapless bikini.

Posing suggestively on a bed. Pam was smart and was the big draw today. The case against her was built on the testimony of several teenagers. Can you please stay for me? William Flynn.

How are you? 16. Groupies of the Pamela Smart trial camp out for hours. If this story were a main for TV movie and it surely will be, it might not believe it. Nobody really understands that these guys were not angels.

Bear in mind, Billy Flynn's sidekick, Pete Randall, was involved in several thefts and Billy himself admitted to burlorie. When Billy Flynn took the stand, he seemed to be every bit the innocent virgin that the prosecution painted him in the opening statements.

He took the first time with him.

He's seen a lot of his dreams. Yeah. I was alone. Right. All that anything.

Yeah. Basically, if you believe Billy Flynn, you didn't need anything else. Now, people take his bed to her bed and you hold that knife. What happened? Yeah.

You know what I'm saying?

“I'm saying that the only way he could be able to be together is him.”

Billy Flynn is supposed to be so innocent that he was manipulated by me, right? But at the same time, he was smart enough to manipulate his friends.

To go kill a person, they've never even met.

He said, "Anybody can help me to get anything else. It's not for sure." "Anybody can help me to get anything else." "It's not for sure." And where did the fighters say she beat me?

I mean, this is what you have now about it. I wanted to get up and say stop lying. You think he lied together less or less sentence. Absolutely. Yeah.

I know he lied. You know, in every big trial, there's that one, aha, mama, the moment everybody remembers was Simpson.

In this case, it was Pam Smart.

And a white, strapless bikini, posing suggestively on a bed.

“As if this super sensational trial isn't crazy enough already, my God.”

They were made between her and a friend, a girlfriend, for a modeling contest. They took photos of each other. Those photographs made it into court. And the prosecution claimed that she had deliberately taken those

to be seductive, to get Billy Flynn, to do her bidding, to kill her husband. She said she didn't want to, she's just going to don't know. If I wanted to make it happen. When those photographs come in, you can see it kind of was overwhelming for a teenage board.

This was a lot of sex for a 16 year old to have.

You can get that sense that it had a lot of influence on him,

a lot of power over him. Enough to make him kill. The prosecution said, see, here's more examples of Pam using her while to keep the sport beside it by her. Not at all.

Pam's side of the story is that she denies ever letting Flynn see those photos. Of all the people that took the witness stand,

“I think people were more moved by Billy Flynn than anyone else.”

I had great walking up towards the door. I wasn't there in over the hour. Um, don't hold. Okay. Here wasn't a strong game that she was just, uh,

uh, basketball. What was going on? What did you tell him? Um, I just wanted to shut up. I took the code.

Out from my pocket. I caught the hammer back, you know. I pointed the gun out his head. After he pointed the gun out his head, he's doing it. I just stood there.

Oh, well. But 100 years is the same point. I said, um, God forgive me. She said God forgive me. What happened?

I pulled the trigger. He started crying, and I'm looking at the jury, and I'm seeing that day. It looks like they feel sorry for him. I wanted to scream. When he killed somebody, uh, a defenseless man on his knees.

Execution style. Yet he became sympathetic on that stand because he was so young, so emotional. And Pam Smart is sitting over at that defense table. She is the orchestrator. This was just a pod.

Okay. So you're saying that time, maybe you killed that?

Yes, but I never would have done it.

It paned and told me to.

“You were just like, uh, I'm a shea, or something like that?”

She was the first girl I ever loved. Now it's the defense's turn to make their case. And in a bold move, they put Pamela Smart herself on the stand. The courtroom was hushed. She was, again, dressed in her prim-popper little outfit

with her fair, dumb perfectly with a big bow. She was insistent about taking this stand. Pamela and Smart. To make sure the jury know that she did not kill her husband. Why did you marry this man?

Because I loved him. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with him. She had that control. Greg didn't come home one night. She told me that he had been with someone else.

How did he react to her? That. Because she had no expression. It was immediately convicted as an ice princess and a cold-blooded killer. Maybe if Pam had cried, things would be different.

The defense argument was that Pamela Smart fully admitted she'd had an affair with a teenage boy. Well, I didn't set out to have an affair with him, but I did. Pamela Smart had broken the affair off, and he got mad, and that was his retribution to kill her husband in cold blood. In total, that I didn't want to have a relationship with him anymore.

And he started crying, and he said that he couldn't move without me. It's a huge risk in any trial for the defendant to take the witness stand, because you're then subject to cross examination by people who do it for a living. You said, when you heard Bill Flynn was arrested to say, "Oh my God,

Of course you went right to the police and straighted that out, didn't you? No, because I thought if the police knew that I had an affair with Bill, and they were automatically conclude that I was involved in the murder.

And also the police never asked me.

Oh, it is cute. Oh. I believe it was a huge mistake to put Pam Smart on the stand. She was destroyed. She was torpedoed on cross examination. It allowed him to stay so fine. I sure have. Yes, I have.

Was killing your husband with one of those mistakes? No, it wasn't. You got me in a divorce, maybe that was one of those mistakes,

“and you should have a divorce, but you didn't.”

No, I didn't want to get divorced. We could have been in a police trial with a fake robbery. I felt like, in the jury was either going to be a home, or they were going to find me guilty. I thought there was no chance at that point that the jury was going to say I was innocent.

Your number one is the defendant guilty and not guilty. The verdict that's about to be handed down would be swift. The punishment severe. And yet three years later, it was still musty TV when Diane Sawyer landed the only interview with the trigger man himself.

Billy Flint. Bill Flint, we asked him if there were one question he could ask you. I think I know what it's going to be. Wait, what do you think it's going to be? Stasi is back.

Most people know me from Vanderpump rules. But I'm a mom of life, a podcaster. I'm traumatized by reality TV, but I can't stay away from it. It's like it's an ordinary payroll. They don't get to be in your life.

Wow.

Reality has never been this real.

Not everyone is built for this. Am I good at ice? Anyone else? But when you said that. Don't cut me off.

This time, I get to do it on my turn. I showed up for you. What could go wrong? House of Stasi wednesdays at 10 on free form and now streaming on Hulu. The Hulu original series, Furious.

Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. There are three victims we know of. The suspect is female. White, late 20th. Female serial killer is killed for power and troll.

“I believe there's a deeper motivation here.”

You have no idea what you're telling us. And you are going to end up dead. I've been waiting for you. Watch the Hulu original series. Furious.

Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. For bonnes of subscribers. Terms of blind. [music playing] [music playing]

[music playing] [music playing] We've been in police crime. I had a poorly police stand. As a jury reached a verdict, I need to do three offenses charge.

Guess we have. You know, adrenaline starts running through your body and your heart's pumping. After 13 hours of deliberation, it all came down to this. There's not that long.

Usually quick verdicts mean, uh, jury's going to quit. [music playing] I'm saying we've been in guilty. We're not guilty of defense charge.

guilty. [music playing] Greg's Mark's family led out a howl. On Pam's side of the courtroom, her parents just sat in definitely silence crushed.

She went from finding out whether she was guilty or innocent to being sentenced within a matter of minutes. I am required and do here by sentence you to the behalf of the state prison for women, for the remainder of your life, without the possibility of parole.

This is not even the custody this year. This hearing is a journey. [music playing] I feelings where, every joy, I just don't know how to explain it.

I just, I want to scream and holler and jump and everything. The entire smart family went to Greg's grave, and they knelt by the grave. And they formed a circle and they told him it was finally over. That Pam had been convicted and she was going to go to prison.

“I remember Diane Sawyer interviewed Pamela Smart,”

and I was riveted. Tonight, Pamela Smart, her first interview since the arrest. Even four years after the murder, the country was still transphixed. I didn't really consider Belle to be a kid.

I guess age wise, he was. But at the time, I just felt that he was more mature. She also got the only interview ever with Billy Flynn. I was still loved Pam. That trial was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life ever.

I guess it's hard for a lot of people to think that you could do something like that for love. That was the whole world to me, baby. I didn't fell in love with her, then she was really all I had, you know. If you're in the hands of somebody who's older, they're going to have power to manipulate and to guide.

And you can't always trust that.

They're just not old enough to make that decision. The frontal cortex is not fully developed yet, so their ability to really think through consequences for their choices is not in place.

We asked him if there were one question he could ask you. What it would be. And here's what he said. I think I know what it's going to mean. Wait, what do you think it's going to be?

Did you really love me? No.

“If you could ask her one question, what would it be?”

What would it be? What would it not? She really would have a love me. That, you know, in hindsight that might not seem like a very big deal in most people, but knowing that she had me do this,

and that I did go through it, and that she never really loved me.

We're probably killing you. Yes, I did. I think I did really love him. If I were to ask you that question again now, does there more nuanced answer?

Did you love him? I feel like I loved him. I cared for him. I had feelings, you know, people act like I just used him, you know, and went larking through the school, looking for somebody to manipulate,

and it wasn't just really wasn't even like that. For this broadcast, her mother, Linda Wood just traveled to New York,

“as part of her never-ending quest to win her daughter's freedom.”

You've been an tireless advocate. You would be too, I would hope. Do you think your daughter had a fair trial? No. Why?

The three things you're supposed to do from the US Supreme Court, when you have publicity attendant to her, like, as in her trial, 1200 newspaper articles screaming her guilt, that you'll put in safeguards. Stay the trial while the publicity of baits.

You change the venue, and you sequester the jury. Judge Gray refused motion after motion to do any of that. I don't think it was necessary. I don't know about everybody else, but I got the sense that 12 good people told not to watch TV.

Can pull that feed off without much difficulty.

The reality is, however, that no matter where you try Pam's smart,

“a jury will likely convict her, based on the evidence.”

She tried the appeals process. She exhausted every appeal. Remember Pamela's smart? Today, the US Supreme Court turned down her final appeal. What happened with Pam is that people see her as having committed a sin

more than a crime. Her sin was the affair with a young boy. Pam's advocates and a growing chorus of feminists believed that Pam's smart got a raw deal because she's a woman. It's an old, old sin.

And it's the same one that goes back to Adam and Eve, where Adam plea bargains with God and gets a reduced sentence. And Eve gets the book thrown at her. Pamela's smart has now been in jail for nearly three decades. But the boys finish serving their time.

It sort of made me sick knowing that these kids were going to get out of jail long before Pam's smart ever would. In my mind, there were more guilty than she was. I mean, these are some bad people. Even if you believe she's guilty, which I don't,

the actual killers who said, yes, we murdered him, are walking around and having their lives. And she deserves better. Pam said to me, "You know, Mom, El Chapo has the same sentence I do." It's one thing for Pam's mom to rail against the sentence,

but you might be surprised with the prosecutor who put her in prison things now. I'm not making a personal statement about Pam. What I'm saying is, I don't know if it's fair for anybody who's been sentenced to life without parole

to be in jail for the rest of their life. I don't know if that's fair, okay? There's a petition online. Clearly, you're not going to give up. No, no, I won't.

I just hope God lets me live long enough to see her free. But now it seems Pam's smart walking free just might happen. Sooner than later, after all. My name is Pamela Smart. I've been incarcerated since 1990.

Thanks to this stunning change of heart.

I had to acknowledge for the first time

in my own mind, in my own heart. How responsible I was. Pamela Smart is sent to prison.

Guess what movie they play for the inmates one night?

Did you get the gun? No, not yet. To die for it.

“And this fictionalized version of her life”

would now be taken as gospel. I just want to know when. It's just, I don't, I don't know. I'll never, Jesus. Look, if you don't know, I guess I have to find somebody who does.

She felt that she got a lot of attention and a lot of abuse in prison as a result of that movie and people thinking they knew who she was. She was attacked by two inmates who thought she was a snitch. They beat her and really harmed her permanently. They fractured a orbital lobe in her eye.

She's got a plate on the side of her face. It's been much easier for her and later years. She has been a model prisoner in every way. She's tutored other prisoners. She's been part of the ministry behind bars.

She's gotten two masters degrees.

“And in 2021, saying that she'd been fully rehabilitated,”

smart petitioned the governor of New Hampshire, seeking a commutation of her sentence. Dear governor, Sanuno, without executive intervention, I will die in prison. I was struck by the letters of support

and then I got to the memo that she personally wrote.

Although I never wanted nor asked Mr. Flynn to murder Greg.

She claimed she had no involvement with his death. How do I trust someone who hasn't even come to terms with her own responsibility for the death of her husband? The vote was for against giving her any kind of sentence relief. Which brings us to Pam Smart's most recent effort.

This video released to the media earlier this summer, a new approach after 33 years. My name is Pamela Smart. I've been incarcerated since 1990, taking responsibility.

“I found myself responsible for something I desperately didn't want to be responsible for it.”

My husband's murder. Pam, inside prison, began to undertake the really serious and hard work about taking stock of what led her to prison. And also coming to grips with her own culpability, acknowledging her responsibility and saying,

"Look, my husband's death, it's my fault."

I had to acknowledge for the first time in my own mind

and my own heart how responsible I was because the truth of being so responsible was very difficult for me. Where is Pam Smart today? What has she changed? What has she improved?

How has she made the case for her own computation? And one of the things is her more public acknowledgement of responsibility. And I think that's important. I'm respectfully asking for the opportunity to come before you,

the New Hampshire Executive Council, and have an honest conversation. There's a question of someone's remorse. There's a question of someone's responsibility. But there's also the question of who the person is today.

It's a testament to her character, and she becomes a prime case for her sentence computation. This is not someone who's in Paris and prison. Reacting to Smart's latest appeal, New Hampshire Governor Chris Sinunu telling ABC News,

New Hampshire's process for commutation or pardon requests is fair and thorough. Pam Smart will be given the same opportunity to petition the council for a hearing as any other individual. What does redemption mean to you? It means that we don't define people by the very worst thing they've ever done in life.

It means that people change. People grow and they evolve over time. That's our program for tonight. Thanks so much for watching. I'm Deborah Roberts.

And I'm David Uyer from all of us here at 2020 in ABC News. Good night. In 2023, a source said me a tip. It tied baseball's biggest star to a vast, illegal sports betting operation. So hey, for Tony.

But then someone's surprising confessed to me, his best friend. On me, pay me the heart and you do have permission to inquire me. From 30 for 30 podcasts, this is the betrayal of showhail Tony. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.