The After Show: Stalking Samantha – 13 Years of Terror

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Hello, everybody. Welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Deborah Roberts, and, as always, it's

good having you with us today. We are going to do what we normally do, which is sort of peel away the layers of one of our recent 2020 stories, but this one is also an episode where we're going to offer you some information which could save your life or could save the life of somebody you love. You may have heard about this case, we featured it on our 2020 episode, but it originated from

a three-part docu-series streaming on Hulu called "Stalking Samantha 13 Years of Terror." And as the title implies, it is a story of a woman who was stalked for many years. 30-year-old Samantha Stights was kidnapped by a man who stalked her. He held her in a sound-proof bunker, the way till you hear the details of this story. It is truly every woman's nightmare. And believe it or not, stalking is more common than

you might think, data from the CDC finds that roughly one and five women and one and ten men have been stalked at some point in their lives. So, what is this all about? We've all heard about stalking before, but what's the root of it? And what are the chances that it can turn violent? We're going to take a deeper look into this topic with somebody who knows the subject well. Casey Jordan, she's a criminologist for physics psychologist and host of the podcast criminal

appeal. And she's going to help us sort of understand the mind of somebody who's a stalker,

but most important, she's going to offer some warning signs that could help save a life.

You mean a sense of the kinds of stories and the kinds of cases that, I mean, I know they run the gamut that you have that that have given you insight into what this is all about. Well, stalking is very often part of a much larger trajectory of true violence. And now I've just always turned violent though. No, we're not always turned violent. It depends on how you handle it. And it also depends on law enforcement's reaction to your complaints.

Again, every stalker is different and it's really important to understand what is their motivation

“if you're going to figure out the best way to handle it. Now, keep in mind that stalking starts”

with unwarranted contact, right? This is a person who won't stop. Once you've pointed out, I don't want you to be in touch with me. The biggest problem I would argue, especially that women do, because of the way we're socialized, you're kind and kindness for certain stalkers, throws fuel on the fire. It gives them even more power. They're abusing you, but you're going to soften it and just go, you know what? You're a really nice guy, but I'm just not that interested.

They will very often excessively not just follow you, but message you, give you unwanted gifts, which leaves you with a feeling of obligation to thank you. They will follow you. One of the biggest things you have to do is really monitor whether they're following you. It is not a coincidence

when they're always in the grocery store in your classes. And this can be really difficult.

If your stalker is somebody who has an excuse to be in your perimeter, you work together, you're in the same clubs, things like that. And they figure out what your Achilles heel is, then they exploit that vulnerability of you. There's a number of things that really should huge red flags that should make people stand back and think I have got to take action to stop this. You were not involved in Samantha's case, but you kind of recognized a lot of what you see here

when you heard about this story. I mean, what were your impressions when you heard this young woman stalked by a guy many years? This one is a classic case where the young man became obsessed with

“the young woman. And you know, stalking is driven by three important things. You've got a fixation,”

an obsession, and the pursuit of unwanted contacts. So in that particular vein, this is classic. And it elevated, escalated. We know that Samantha and her friends told him that the attention was unwanted. And he needs to stop it, but it only elevated. And he became every, mostly women, as you pointed out, our victims of stalking, every woman's worst nightmare. But what sets this apart from so many other stalking cases is the lengths he went to possess her. Let's talk about the

two of these, these two young people. She's a classic, you know, gal, who's the closer family. It was involved in her church, and they had met Christopher Thomas initially wanted to connect wanted to be closer to Samantha. And as you said, the signals were said that she really wasn't interested in him romantically. But when you think about the fact that this clearly was just a woman trying to be friendly with a guy, but how can things escalate like that from a young woman who's

the signals are choosing to see something different. The dynamics are really complex. First of all,

they did me in a church setting. All right. So that kind of social setting and peer group, you know, you don't want to be rude. You don't want to come across as, you know, you want to be charitable in a church setting. He started out as what we would call an incompetent suitor. Now, she was just 19, and he was about 27 when they met. But he didn't interpret that as a big age gap. And again, with that age differential, as well as the power dynamic, he's a male,

and she's a young female. And you pointed it out. She was friendly. And that is her nature. And we are as women. I think socialize to be nice and to be kind and not to not to be so harsh and rude toward anybody. Well, you talk about how it went further. And if unless you're going to actually say put your foot down. Well, she did in 2014, things kind of took a turn. She could see that he was not taking no foreign answer. And Samantha eventually filed a personal protection order

called a PPO against Thomas because they had gone through school. She had relocated to another place another state. And he follows her trying to pursue the same internships she's pursuing. By now, she's clearly spooked. So she files this PPO to try to keep him away from her. What is what exactly? We've heard of restraining orders. What's a PPO? Well, and they are different restraining order and in order protection or two different things. But the order protection is a legal document.

“You have to go and present your evidence and convince a judge that restrictions should be put”

on this person. And they are very often tailored to the particular situation. Because so many times orders of protection are actually between people who have had a relationship. That's where it gets

complex. Because she's insisting I've never had a relationship with this guy. It's not like he's

an ex-boyfriend being right. So if you haven't had a prior relationship, it's really important to document document. I'm going to return to that theme later. But she was able to convince a judge. Here are all the things he's done over the last three years. Not only did I move out of state, but he applied and got into the same program that I was in. Because how do you get to kick somebody out of a program just because they are in it with you? She documented everything. And the judge

was so convinced in this particular case that he gave her an order protection for six years, which is an incredibly long time. In other words, the judge had never done that. Now he could be done it truly believed her and wanted to protect her. And here's the interesting thing. Order is a protection. We often say aren't worth the PPO they're written on. Because by the time somebody violates the order of protection, you could be dead. So that's a piece of paper that helps

if that person violates it. A lot of times it will say, do not write, do not call, do not come within 300 yards of this person. And if they do that, you call the police and you've got back up. Right. You've got something that couldn't get them arrested. Yeah. But in this particular case, he actually followed the parameters of the order. And he did not contact her for six years. Right. He didn't violate, which led people to think that maybe he wasn't a danger.

“It's important to know what constitutes stalking because, you know, it's one thing for”

somebody to follow you. And, you know, we think about somebody creepily looking maybe at you, as you walk into your home or maybe even stalking you online, would qualifies as stalking. Now, all 50 states have some version of anti stalking laws, but they are dramatically different. And sometimes they are very vague and open to interpretation. But the stalking usually has a few elements. First of all, it is repeated and unwanted contact and there's a pattern.

Right. So many of our stalking laws do not include their outdated prohibitions against cyber stalking. Right. There's no log against writing letters to people. You can write letters to people and email people all you like. But it has to be elevated to the form of harassment. And that very often is a subjective interpretation. So, it's really difficult sometimes to convince a judge or a prosecutor or even a cop, if you've called, that this has elevated to the point

of unwanted contact that is harassment and the pattern makes me feel threatened. All of these words are open to interpretation. Yeah. But if the key is unwanted, attention, and I send a pattern and a pattern. And if you were to make sure you rebuff that person to make it clear, you don't want them to continue to contact you. That's a whole different thing. Correct. Well, he, Thomas, eventually, after her order expired, he

starts showing up again. He even showed up with her soccer games. He's really spooking her big time.

“She's trying to now get another PPO. This one has expired. Right. What recourse do you have?”

So you've had something like this in place. And now you want to get another one. And she had

difficulty. Now the next time, what can you do? Now here's what we get into a debate.

She got a job in Trevor City, Michigan, and settled there. He followed her there.

“She gets on a soccer team, adult soccer team, and he joins the soccer league. Why should she drop”

off the soccer team? Why should she be on her? Why should she have to quit going to the gym that she goes to when he suddenly shows up at the gym? Because then she's running and that gives him power. But sometimes for the people reviewing these requests for the order of protection, this one was considered a complex relationship. The first one just put him on pause for six years. Right. In our reporting, and also in the docuseries, too, you see. And you hear from Samantha

talking about that horrifying October morning when the unthinkable happened. When he shows up Thomas breaks into her home, handcuffs her, gags her. And she talks about being fearful. She was going to die. And this reminds me so much of a story that I covered years ago, where a young woman was a guy that we offered to give her a ride, did the same thing to her handcuffed her. She woke up in some, you know, a bunker, a bunker. That's exactly right.

“And that's what she was saying, a bunker. And she was held for a long time. In this case,”

Samantha was held for not quite a whole day. Her harrowing story is just nothing short of not only remarkable, but inspirational. She has gone on to work as a social worker and advocating

for stalking victims. It's just really, really kind of amazing stuff. And I want to talk more

with you about this because she talks a lot in our broadcast about what she had to go through in this harrowing ordeal. But when we come back, we're going to talk about red flags that every woman shouldn't know about. And some that aren't so obvious. This is so important. So don't go anywhere. Today I want to tell you about our friends at Mikko. Mikko has built an air purifier that works

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compact bar cruiser and a small 1st price at 920 Euro. Thanks to innovative press brew technology, every task of special aromattles with some of the cream. And that's now the cube capsule machine, in your Chibofiale and in Chibode E. Welcome back to 2020, The After Show. We are having a fascinating conversation with Criminologist and Forensic psychologist, Casey Jordan, who has worked on a number of stalking

cases. Are these? I mean, they're not people stalking around in alleys necessarily all the time. Are they when we talk about how they choose their victims? I mean, these may not be people who set out to be a stalker. Sometimes it might be a guy who truly is just interested in a woman, as you said, and then he has like this distorted idea of it. Is there something that leaves you more vulnerable? I would, you can't see it coming. All right. It's like a heat-seeking

missile. But the bottom line is that some of these, the three typologies are going to be what

we call the incompetent suitor. So if somebody is an incompetent suitor, somebody who does not read the room, doesn't get that you are not at all interested in them. But far more common are the other two typologies, which include the person who's seeking intimacy, who thinks that you do love them. And they suffer from delusions, severe mental disturbance. And that usually evolves to the worst kind, which is the predatory stalker. Predatory stalkers are the ones that will escalate

into a physical confrontation, including abduction, kidnapping, even murder. So the difference between

“somebody being a nuisance and having the potential for violence? I mean, how does one even know?”

They all listen. First of all, all stalking is violence. And we talk about, okay, the physical violence might be is what we most fear. But I can't even not work with stalkers and many stalking

the physical, the fear of physical attack. But the physical attack will at least be a watershed

event that law enforcement takes seriously. Right? So when somebody comes in physical proximity,

“even though that's what we fear the most, in many ways, that is the apex of the stalking”

behavior that is going to end it. Because once they make a physical overture towards you, then law enforcement will take it seriously and get involved. You know, in a lot of these stories, we talk about the legal system and in the case of Samantha Stight, how she was able to get a in order of protection. But sometimes that can be difficult. Does the legal system seem to recognize how difficult this can be, but also how dangerous this can be? I would argue

things are much better than there were 30 years ago when we first saw stalking statutes,

start passing in all of the states. But the biggest problem I would argue is that the criminal justice system is still extremely male-dominated. We need the criminal justice system to be handled

“by practitioners who can put themselves in the shoes of the victim, the target, who is trying to”

get law enforcement and the criminal justice system to assist them in stopping the behavior. Usually stalking won't change unless there is intervention and the stalker gets some very serious cognitive behavioral therapy from a counselor or a therapist. Yeah, and having that kind of intervention makes such a difference. Well, we want to talk more about how to recognize these warning signs and also what you can do because I know you haven't vise for us. So we're going to take

a quick break and when we come back warning signs of a stalker and what you can do to protect yourself. So stay with us. Welcome back to 2020 The After Show. I am here with Casey Jordan, criminalologist and host of the True Crime Podcast Criminal Appeal who is helping us understand stalking. We mentioned earlier that one and five women experienced stalking in their lifetime

and it also affects men too, but mostly women. So we want to talk about some of the red flags of

a stalker, especially those that may not seem obvious at first and you talked about people

who don't seem to take no for an answer and so forth. Women often, as we said, want to be nice, we want to be kind, we don't want to go in there very harshly with people, but what are those red flags? What's the difference between someone who is fairly harmless, but just kind of stays in your orbit and just doesn't want to give up because they feel like maybe one of these days you'll want to date me. What are the warning signs that something serious could be

headed your way? Well, number one, they don't take no for an answer and number two, they just the behavior is repetitive and they will not stop. They can't. So once you have said, I'm not interested and then you even escalated to stay the hell away from me and they still are just

“coming around going, you'll change your mind, you really love me two things you need to do.”

When those red flags come again, repetitive contact don't take no for an answer and the following patterns, meaning they follow you around and they show up and they just claim it's a coincidence. That's them trying to exert their power over you and undermine your your feeling of safety. And again, pressure to communicate, you're so rude, gilting. But the key is, once it gets really uncomfortable, number one, tell all your friends and that's important. You need a support

network and very often it's saying these things stay away from me in front of friends, having there be witnesses. You're afraid to humiliate them, but that humiliation very often can burst the bubble. Yeah, and also can pay off later if you need to guess exactly if you need to get law enforcement. So when do you know that this has gotten to the point where I need to get law enforcement or the courts involved? This is a decision that every target will have to

make for themselves, but my advice is get there earlier rather than later. You want to nip it in the bud at the early stages. So call law enforcement because the number one piece of advice I will give to anybody who's being stalked is document document evidence evidence evidence. You do not want this to be a question of whether you're a reasonable person or whether you're hypersensitive and, you know, this guy doesn't mean you any harm he's just trying to date you.

and record everything and that's so much easier to ever today with our friends course. But literally

when I was afraid of one of my former students stalking me, I would wear everywhere I went shopping to the grocery store, whatever a backpack and I would have a GoPro on the front strap and a GoPro on the back pocket so that I could document that this woman was following me at all times. You think having your phone in your hand is enough, but it's like where's my phone? Oh, I got to put it on record. I got to put it from photo to video. You just want to be recording

“everything if you're being followed. And if it's cyber stalking, you need to cash everything”

and screenshot screenshot everything and then make yourself a specific stalker email if you will. And every time this person makes contact with you send yourself an email and CC a trusted friend who will also have access to that account so that everything is time date stamped.

Yeah. That's so critical because later the target could say she's making this. Yeah,

receipts is what they call it these days. Yeah. Have receipts. Have a receipt. Time date stamp and email yourself every single time and all those screenshots in case you lose your phone. And before I let you go, what about resources? What's out there for people to be helped? Um, if you don't go to the police, you don't go to the court. So what, what's out there? And they're available to help you out. The very best online resources is called Spark SPARC.

And it stands for the stocking prevention awareness resource center.

And it not only has a great deal of educational information that helps you figure out who your

“stalker is and what how you should handle it, but they do a lot of advocacy as well. They don't do”

one on one counseling, but you can contact them, tell them the kind of contact that's happening, what your relationship is with this person. And they can advise you best and even send you to local women centers and parliament centers in your community where you can get one on one counseling. They give a lot of educational advice, but then also how to get support, you can call not only Spark and and also rain and the national hotline for domestic violence.

I know you're going, oh no, he hasn't struck me yet, but it is domestic violence when somebody is stalking you because it's psychological violence. And just getting that support, even if they're like, well, we'll go with you in your own community, almost all cities have a woman center or what they now call an empowerment center because they service people of all genders and sexes. And you can go there and get a victim advocate who will walk you through the process of how to

get an order of protection or even a restraining order, which is not right, and sometimes just having someone to help you navigate all of the red tape of how that works, go to court with you, listen to you and be your advocate can make all the difference in the world.

“Yeah. So do not be afraid to reach out. That's what these agencies are there.”

And don't brush it off and think that it's harmless because these things can actually escalate. This is such a good advice. Thank you again for being here and thank you to our listeners. You can catch the latest 2020 episodes, of course on Friday night on ABC and you can stream episodes anytime on Disney Plus and Hullo. You can also watch the darkest series, stalking Samantha 13 years of terror right now on Disney Plus and Hullo.

Thanks so much for being with us, everybody. You've got to chill out and not come on too strong. And that goes against my entire personality, but I'll try. Every did you see that moment? You did!

What records are going to be broken this season? All of it, right here. Lock in. It's the WMBA on ESPN. All season long.