Father & Son - Ron & James Swanwick On Family, Regrets & Legacy

I am James Swannik, and today I am having a conversation with my father, Ron Swannik, who is 81,

“and we are in Medici and Columbia. It's April 2026, and we're about to have a conversation about life,”

about parenthood, about fears and passions and interests, and we're doing this really, so I have this interview for Prosperity, so I can show it to my daughter, Isabella, who as of today is four months old, and hopefully she'll want to see this long after you're gone there. So welcome to this conversation. Thank you. So you arrived in Medici in Columbia where I currently live last week, tell us a little bit about what's happened since then. Well, I arrived at about 20 past midnight in the morning,

which was about an hour or more later than schedule. First I went on a helicopter ride around the city,

which was very interesting because it gave me a good perspective of the city, and coming in the previous night, I'd seen the light to the city, including lights going up, what was obviously up, was at a sloping angle, which I thought, well, that's obviously a mountain of some sort, and I was able to see it, and that the city was really entirely in a valley, and yes, it was great to see the city from the air, get a perspective of it.

Well, you know, before you even did that, you know, you met your granddaughter for the first time. Oh, that's right. I don't do that. Yes, yes, yes, well, I'll have to, I'll have to

seek her forgiveness for that one time. So yes, early on the, the first morning, I did meet

as Isabella for the first time. We had conversed over WhatsApp previously, but this is the first

“time I'd met her in the flesh, and I think the meeting was mutually satisfactory.”

What was it like to meet your granddaughter for the first time just out of here? Well, it's difficult to describe, I mean, obvious pleasure. I'd seen her on WhatsApp, but that's very impersonal to see her actually in the flesh, something about seeing someone in the flesh after you've only seen them on the screen. So, and then to peer into her face and think, right, we'll gully, you know, there she is, some of my genes are in there. I'm responsible for some of this.

You know, yes, it was wonderful. Yeah. And that initial feeling has been sort of developing in a

more sensible way over the last few days. I was the first time father at 50. Did you ever worry

that wasn't going to happen for me? Yes, I did. I had had, in fact, resigned myself to the fact that it wasn't going to happen. Really? How did you feel about that? Oh, it was disappointed. I've disappointed for you mainly because I knew you wanted to be parent and disappointed from myself as well to a lesser degree, but I was absolutely thrilled when you were out on Australia last

“Easter. I think it was Easter, April at least, and you and Laura conspiratorially pulled me aside”

and revealed that she was expecting. Not only that, but I was the first one to be told. Yes. So, I was thrilled about that. Which part, the fact that you were the first to be told or the fact that she was expecting? Well, the two have sort of been jostling for poll position ever since. So, I'm not sure. Yes. Well, yeah, I got there in the end. First time father is just going to nice ring to it, I think. It certainly has. I was, yeah, concerned for Laura, the nine months of sickness

that she went through. So, that was really rotten. So, but she seems to think it's all worthwhile. She seems to be very loving mother and that it's all been worthwhile. Yes. So, I did cut you off there earlier when you were describing the first few days or what it's been like here in Medellin, you were sitting. We went up in a helicopter ride on the first morning after you met, Isabella was right there. Let's go. We went to the city airport and we went up in a helicopter

and we got a good vantage point of this city. Yes. What was that experience like for you? Well, it was about the fourth time I've been in a helicopter and the rest of the passengers are very gallant. They allowed me the front seat next to the pilot. So, I probably had the the premiere view. Yeah, it was very, very interesting. And yeah, not many people get that sort of view, even

what I subsequently discovered was the golf course where we played next day and where we'd seen

planes coming in and almost being so low as to take off my hat on the way down. Now, it was really good. Yeah, and then we played golf, didn't we at the Elrador Drive at Country Club. And we,

“we had a caddy come with this, which is was a unique experience for both of us. Wasn't it?”

It was growing up in Australia. You don't really have caddies go with you when you're in there. I'm at a golfer. Here in Columbia, it's actually like a requirement that you haven't caddy. Yeah. So, we had a guy called Fernando, follow us around for 18 holes and go and retrieve our balls.

And right, clean our ball to the towel, get our clubs out and to support what we'd want,

give advice from the line on the, on the putting greens. Yeah, she was very useful. Yeah. And then we've been walking the city and you're recovering from a knee replacements that you haven't been back in Brisbane, Australia, where you live. But about two months ago, three months ago, probably more like three, it was the 18th of December. So, just before Christmas. Yeah. So, a bit over three months ago. Yeah. And Medegean is quite hilly. So, there's also ups and downs.

And yes. But next week, we're going to Augusta in Georgia in the US. In fact, this week,

and on Friday, we have tickets to the US Masters Golf Tournament, which is part of the

reason you came over from Brisbane, Australia. A to meet Isabella, your granddaughter, and see how Laura and I live, but also to go to the US Masters. And your knee seems to be holding up for that

“for that event. So, how is your knee and how are you feeling about going to the Masters on Friday?”

Oh, I'm increasingly confident. My recovery has been ahead of schedule, ahead of the key performance indicators. I've done some walking. I've done a few three and a half kilometre walks, two four and a half kilometre walks. And just before I came over, I did a five kilometre walk. Yesterday, in retrospect, it was about three kilometres down hill or it felt that way. And being downhill, it was more taxing on the muscles and going uphill. And then we walked about

three kilometres, one way, three kilometres back. So, that makes a total of nine kilometres. Yeah. And although it was tough going, I did it. And my knee was okay. That's not the limiting factor. So, do you think you'll be able to walk 18 holes at Augusta? I'm increasingly confident

“that I will be able to. And this is somewhat of a bucket list item for you, isn't it?”

To go to the US Masters? Yes, it is. We were due to go there three or four years ago and I got COVID a week before we were due to go. So, that had to be called off, although I wasn't terribly sick. The point was that everyone departing for overseas was being tested at the airport. And there was simply no point going to the airport, being tested positive and sent back home again. Now, I can remember sitting on my balcony and looking out and seeing the plane that I would probably

have been on. And the very next day, I tested myself and I was in free. So, it was a bit of disappointment. But anyhow, making up for it now. Yes. Well, we're going to have a discussion about your life and thoughts and feelings and about my brothers and myself, etc. But just to give our listener some context, let me see if I can do an adequate job of describing you and your life in chronological order. And then maybe you can fill in the blanks. But

career wise, you were a veterinarian for many years and you had your own veterinary practice. And then you studied law, part time, and became a lawyer. And we were admitted to the bar in the state of Queensland in Australia. And then left veterinary science or left your veterinary practice and became a crown prosecutor, what's called the Department of Public Prosecutions. So, you seem to have had a 20-year vet career. And then a 30-year law career. And I submit, that's a very

unique and very rare accomplishment to have a veterinary career. And then transition, what's I think

Or rather, maybe you started studying law part time when you around 39. And then you made the transition

“to being a lawyer just before you were 50, I think. Is that how it played out? We before I turned”

49. Okay. So that is a very unique career path. And I know that you've been told that several times, but I also have a sense that maybe you don't find it as impressive as other people do. Why is that? Well, it's not unique simply because other people have done it. It is rare because

very few people have done it, but I'm certainly not the first one to do it. I suppose it's a bit

matter of fact now because the novelty of it has been cut. Well, I've lost the novelty of it. It's become a bit matter of fact. Right throughout my law career, certainly I've derived pleasure from people discovering that I used to be a vet and expressing the same surprise that you have,

“but it ceased to make the same impression as it did in the early days. So I've just become used to it.”

How did you get into being curious about veterinary science in the beginning? And first of all, maybe I just asked you to just maybe explain where you were born and where you grew up and then how you got into veterinary science. Well, I was born in Prosapine in Queensland. My mother's property, family property was just north of Wallenbilla, which is just east of Rome in western Queensland. We just spent a lot of our holidays there. I just learned to love the place and to love the bush.

So I always wanted to do something on the land, you know, cattle station, working cattle livestock.

So my education was sort of tailored towards that after what is now the equivalent of year 10 in most places. I went to get an agricultural college, not knowing what I was going to do at the end of it. But two thirds of the way through the first year is as old as my elder cousin doing vet science.

“I suddenly realised that's what I wanted to do. And so from then on that was my abiding passion and goal.”

And I was only a very average student. So I had to work very hard and struggle to get through. But I did get through my venture. And in my final year in vet science, I will accidentally won a rotary scholarship. And that was not based on academic achievement, but rather on sort of the sort of person I was, I suppose, the interests I had. And I think they call an ambassador of international goodwill and understanding, which sounds a bit pompous, but that's what they thought

that I could be. So I, that gave me the opportunity. I went to the University of golf, the Ontario veterinary college, the Toronto in Canada. And there I did a master's degree, which included doing a thesis, research, experimentation, as well as coursework. It required doing writing a thesis and published two or three papers as a result of that thesis. So then I came back to Brisbane. I then gained a taste for the academic life.

And bear in mind that my academic achievements had been very modest. So really I had acquired a taste really above my station. But I had a year at the vet school at Worreby in Victoria, as a surgical tutor, where I gave a couple of few lectures. And but then opportunities closed. So then I went out into practice. And we had a very good practice in in back a smash, which is just West of Melbourne. It was a lovely town. I had a nice mixture of small and large

animals. It's where you and your two siblings were born. And then we, after five and a half years,

we always had in mind that we'd go back to Brisbane where home really was. So we did.

And I could never settle into anything there. The practice I bought there, I really didn't want to. But I, it was sort of out of necessity. And this was now about 1980, 1980,

veterinary practice would be 1981. Yes, I think it would have been. Or maybe even early '82.

“Okay. Yeah. Now, that fulfilled a sort of an economic necessity.”

We then faced the the prospect of of raising you all, you were in your first year in primary school.

The others followed. At the time, your mother was finishing off or starting, was finishing off a university degree. And I had it in mind that maybe as an intellectual diversion, when she had finished, I might do a subject or two. And then I suddenly thought of law because one of the people for whom I'd done the local had done first year law and said it was it was introduction to law and it was it was very interesting. So I actually got into law

on the basis of my first degree and my master's degree at a very late stage in the second round of

“offers. And as soon as I started studying, I became fascinated with the, you know, the principles”

and the concepts of law. And I thought, gee, this is for me. So I did for the next nine and a half years. I studied externally and part time. I used to go in once a week for tutorials. That was my contact component. During that time, I ran the veterinary practice. You were all growing up. So you involved with school cricket. All of you were involved with rugby union. So at the time, you joined East rugby union club. I became the chairman of the juniors for two years there.

And because I always get restless on the sideline being a spectator, I became a referee.

And I was a book learned at referee because I'd never played rugby at any level myself.

“But learned that I did and I started off doing just the juniors and rose up to the level of”

or cults, you know, of those, you know, sort of high say 19 year olds. And I did that for about 15 years and that became my main sporting activity. And I absolutely loved it. So that was all done during a period of time. As well as studying. I used to go out of the the library on the weekends and at nights to read cases. That's the library at the University of Queen University of Queensland, which is in Brisbane, which is Queensland's most prestigious

University. That's right. Yes. That's where I done vet sciences. Well, okay. So you study vet science at the University of Queensland and then only to 20 years later return. Yeah, to study law. That's right. Yeah. And you would have been one of the older students on the campus when you were doing law. Because by that stage, you would have been in your 40s, probably rubbing shoulders with kids who were in their late teens or early 20s. I was. Now, I wasn't, again, I wasn't unique.

There were quite a number of mature age students there as well. Because law is a refuge for other people who are coming from other professions. So now I was by no means the only person there, but yes, mainly I was mainly amongst school levers. And that had a consequence in the sense that

in my first year I got two sixes, which is six out of a maximum of seven. And it was very good.

It was very good. I thought, gosh, maybe this means I'm brilliant. Next year I got two fives. And I thought, well, maybe this means I'm really good. Then I got another five in a four. And in one of the subjects, which I passed, but one of the questions I'd actually failed and I couldn't understand it. So I went along to the lecture and he said, well, you know, five years ago, you'd have got a five for this, but there's now a bell curve. You've got to realise you'll compete

against the top school levers, the highest academic achievers in the state. And whereas when you started off, you already had maturity. You'd had all the experience of studying and application. They were still getting and adapting, getting used to and adapting to university life. Therefore, you out did them in the beginning. They've now caught up and passed you by. And he was correct because for the rest of my time, apart from one five and one further six,

I got all fours, which is the minimum pass. And so, you know, they turned out to be the

and you then made that transition from from selling the veterinary practice, which I think you've described as being in the arse end of Brisbane. Is that fair to say? You really hated that veterinary practice, didn't you? Well, I did. It wasn't the arse end of Brisbane, but you know, you could possibly see it from there. No, it was fine. It's a good suburb now, but it just, I just didn't fit into it.

It's not a place I went to voluntarily, and I never really fitted into it. So you bought that

practice 10 years early, or when we've, sorry, back in 1981, or we moved back to Brisbane, out of necessity, fund sending us to school and raising us, et cetera. But you have shared that the

“ensuing, ensuing 20 years that you had that practice, I think it was 20 years, or maybe it was less”

than that. But it was hellish at times. Or it felt like that. Why did it feel like such a drain at times? The one at Capullaba? Yeah. Well, because it was a small one-man practice, it's always a problem. When, you know, everything depends on you. You don't have the facilities, you can't do the

sort of things that you wanted to do. And remember, I still had sort of the tail end of the taste of

academic life. So I knew what it was like for things to be better. And although I had that strong identity of being a vet, I was really frustrated at how little I was, or how far I'd fall when I suppose. And the prospect that this was my ultimate destiny. So when you were comparing, when you say you've had this feeling of how far you had fallen, is that when you were comparing it

“to getting the rotary scholarship and being sent to Canada, you know, on a scholarship. And maybe”

the world is open to you could be anything and create anything. And now you're in the, well, I'm describing it this way. The arse end of Brisbane in one-man practice. Yes. Yes. No wheel power, no rehab, no AA needed. My book clear is the neuroscience-based method that higher achievers are using to quit drinking. Get it at alcoholfree lifestyle.com/clear. I recall you shared a story once that there were some customers who came in and they were talking about

their interstate vacation and they took a flight and a plane and maybe the business wasn't doing particularly well financially at that time and you had a thought. Could you just describe what I'm referring to, do you know? I can't. What you said to me once is that you were financially

“struggling or it was modest. Yes. And these customers came in and were raving about”

flying into state and you thought I'll never take a flight. Yes, that's right. I do recall what happened.

I did well. It was the early days of the practice and, you know, we were struggling a bit. And I thought, I mean, I was having very negative thoughts at the time. And I was thinking, I may never fly in a plane again. I may never be able to afford to fly in a plane again. And the drug representatives who used to come in come calling, they describe how they'd been driving up to child level and all around Queensland and I thought, I really envy them. I would love to have

been, you know, doing what they were doing. So I was in a really negative place at the time. And that negative place that you were in then probably lasted a full decade, right? Because you've described to me before the 80s as being a pretty horrendous decade for you, at least mindset wise, probably because you felt trapped in that veterinary practice. Yes. I did studying law and, succeeding each year, I definitely had an eye on that as being in a scape. And the further along

in my studies, I got the more determined I was, that was going to be, I was going to get out and get into law. So I suppose the further I got, the fewer negative thoughts I had about, you know, what the other alternatives were likely to be. And with the passing of time, you ended up being admitted to the bar. You sold the veterinary practice. And just before you're 49th birthday, you were admitted to the bar and then over the next, about a year later, you got what became your

full-time job position as a lawyer at the Department of Public Prosecutions. You still, a little bit better. Ah, yes. Well, an actual fact, I did solar practice in December of 1992.

on the Saturday. There was a cricket test match on in Brisbane. That's an international

“game. And I went along and I can remember feeling guilty, not being at work on Saturday morning.”

Hmm. But then I was doing low comes. I had one more subject to do. I did the bar practice course, which is a course for those who want to become barricades as distinct from solicitors. And it was during, after the bar practice course, I realized that the area that I'd been most interested in was criminal law. They had the more elegant sort of principles and tactics and everything. So that focused my mind a bit. And from then on, I made serious attempts to get into either legal aid

or the officer, the direct public prosecutions. And for some reason, rather, I favored the prosecutions. And you're right, I joined the office as a clerk a week before my '49th birthday. And I'm sure that became a square peg in a square hole. I knew that that was the right place for me. And as has occurred in other times in life, I thought I felt the hand of Providence sort of guiding me through

many a pitfall and blind alley to put place me in that spot. So, for three years, I first

I was a clerk and the interesting thing about joining was that I was rubbing shoulders with young 22 year olds, men and women. And they were my superiors. So they were telling me what to do. And for some people, it could have been a problem. 22 year olds telling me a 49 year old, what to do. But I realised that if I adopted that attitude, it wasn't going to get anywhere. And besides, I argued to myself that they were actually superior. They knew more than I did.

Therefore, they were in a position to teach me. And so I never resented it.

What did others say to you about that age gap over the three decades that you were at the DP? I don't know that anyone made any comment about the age gap. There may have been one or two other mature age students who win the same intake. I know there was one ABC television reporter, or perhaps there was a radio reporter who was in the intake. There may have been one or two others. After about five, six years, I was the only one of the

mature age students from that intake that was left there.

“So I think there was more curiosity about the fact that I'd been a vet.”

I don't think there was much comment about the age gap. What was the highlight of your three decades in law at the department of public policy? It's very difficult to pick a highlight. I have about 12 or 15 cases, which I am most proud. There is perhaps one which stands out slightly above the others. And that was my prosecution of a Jehovah's Witness man who had sexually assaulted his daughter

over many years. She had escaped the the the cult. She had made a complaint to police. There had been one trial, which I wasn't involved. It was a hung jury, which meant that the

jury couldn't agree. So there was a retrial. I did the first retrial and as a result of evidence

which the last witness gave, it was in admissible evidence. So let's slip the fact that he was also being investigated for other offenses that trial had to be aborted. So it was terribly disappointing, but it was again the hand of Providence guiding through because

“it was actually the best thing that could have happened because we discovered all the family discussions”

afterwards that are. They had actually additional evidence. Useful evidence that we could get.

prepared the third time round. And the third time the trial went fairly well. The jury retired

and met afternoon. You could sit at their verdict. At the end of the the day, the the judge said we'll we'll give them to 11 o'clock in the morning to decide. Otherwise we'll have to call it off. And if that had happened that would have been a would have been no fourth trial. So the next morning she and I and her family were in a witness room just waiting. And I happened to say to her what are you going to do after after all this? She was a hairdresser

lived in townsville. And she said I don't know and I said well yeah what about considering some study

because she seemed to be a cut a level above the rest of her ratty family. And I thought they were more about it. Well it got closer to 11 o'clock and I had to acquaint them with the fact that it's probably going to be another hung jury. So they were very teary and downcast. We went back into the court room with about 5 to 11. The judge was completing another matter. So we sat there and at about 5 past 11 I saw the bail of from the trial coming carrying the exhibits. And that usually

means the jury's reached a verdict. So I said oh look there's bail of sin here. Oric and the jury's

got a verdict. So the judge finished what he was doing and said oh yes we have a verdict and they

“came back and it was guilty. So he was sentenced there and then and he I think he was sentenced”

about two and a half years and everyone went and that was that. Well about seven years later I had a dolphin wondered what had happened at the school and also I wondered about I said the hand I could see the hand of Providence sort of guiding me through all of the pitfalls that it occurred. Seven years later she rang and said oh I remember me I'm Shelley. I've taken your advice. I've gone to study. I've done a year of psychology but my professor told me law is better for me

so next year I'm starting it and apparently that's all the result of my making that little suggestion and five years later I got another call so she had nearly finished she was doing honors and she was giving evidence before the Royal Commission into sexual abuse in institutions which she did. I attended her graduation ceremony together with the arresting officer the main investigating officer and a short time later I moved her admission into as in the court of appeal

as a legal practitioner and that event was actually reported on by the ABC which is the main

“national use organisation in Australia and that was a nice human interest story there and life is”

not gone well for her subsequently but I've been stayed in touch of her giving her you know moral and emotional support you know every every every month or so and you know so I'm still in touch of her so I'd say that might be the highlight is that's the thing that you're most proud of in your professional career do you think look there there are many other cases that I did where people have been very very grateful there are more complex cases that I've done

but one thing I discovered both in veterinary practice and in law was that those for who for whom you achieved the most are often the least grateful and those for whom you achieved the least are often the most grateful and I found in law that those who are most grateful with the victims of historical sex offenses not recent not five years but 10 20 30 35

“years ago was the longest that I have approximated so I think in the in the sense of really”

achieving justice and satisfaction for people that sort of thing was probably probably yes the the most satisfying when you think about your life as a whole not just professionally but family what are you most proud of but rarely say out loud well let's have a very broad and unfocused

reporter or an interviewer now well if you ask a question in court the judge was so that's in fact

it did happen to my opponent in a trial that's a very unfocused question look um what am I most proud of well obviously my family I'm extremely proud of my three sons as I look back there there was nothing at the time to prepare me for what there's no way that I could have foreseen what has happened your own career is is really just a standing from reporter to you know travelling to London going to Hollywood you know the

“thickness of hide required to get in there I think you get that from your mother actually”

and the and the way things have have turned out to where you are now what you're doing now

with your alcohol free lifestyle which is obviously helping people and helping a lot of people worldwide area so you know who could possibly have foreseen that Edward equally he was he was a bit of a rebel in the family to adjust for context for those who run away I have two younger brothers named Edward and Tristan Edward and Tristan I think Edward is two years younger than me and Tristan whose four years younger than us that's right so Edward like you did an arts degree and had no idea

“what he wanted to do he was a bit of a a bit of a rebel and I understand you know you may”

have said a lot about education you said oh yes okay and from then on he became focused and from being a sort of a scruffly dressed rebel he cut his hair became respectable put on a house to sports coat and from then on became more like me than I am so he became the the typical you know school teacher and his focus has been on onboarding on that area he has worked in private schools a whole time in Australia and England very wealthy school will to do schools but he has a

strong sense of social justice and he is very well aware of the fact that he was dealing with the privileged and that there are those who are not nearly so well off so he's got a very balanced attitude there Tristan he's he's had some difficulty finding a definite focus in life but he also

finally he will he got into the business that that you started and he's really enjoyed that

he's still working in that at the moment and he's he's married a you know a very nice lady who's a gastroenterologist they have one son and they're living in in Brisbane so I see them so I don't think any of you we could have predicted exactly how are you to have turned out well imagine if someone came to you when you were 19 just starting veterinary science and said you're gonna end up being a crown prosecutor would not have believed that either no you're quite right

and not only 19 you know until I was you know in my mid-30s probably yeah and I had about a 22 year career in veterinary practice I had about a 31 year career in law and although I didn't achieve everything I would like to have done in law looking at the beginning when I started in the office if someone had said well over that 30 years this is what's you are going to achieve I would not have believed it either so what do you think

you did well as a dad oh dear Adi Adi that's a leading question isn't it and one which could invite exaggeration and self-aggrandizement well I could say you know training you to try to

“be more like me look I think we we had a good balanced family life I think you saw the”

the elements of hard work and discipline from both myself and your mother I think we trained you in the inculcated you with the social standards courtesy manners

we certainly inculcated that and mean you went to schools where that was continued on

you went to started off in Sunday school in church where that was also reinforced so to the extent that I can think of anything at the moment I'd say it would be that and

“I think we're you know very pleased with the end result is there something that you wish that you”

done differently or do you feel like there was anything that you felt short in in terms of parenting being a father um let's put me on the spot um I don't think so I don't think so mean we lead such busy lives with school with sport and you're heavily involved in cricket

and I was always and involved with you there it was my main interest in rugby union the three of

you were involved in your all-year school activities we were involved I think I might have preferred you to be more more strongly attached to you know your religious education then turned out but that was just the way it was um so apart from that now I'm not sure there's anything else that I can think of at the moment none of us have been arrested or or are currently or have been in jail or prison for anything that's a lesson you could probably say you've

ticked that box is like make sure that my children do not end up in prison that's one of the greatest negative virtues yes indeed but I submit that we're all when I say we I mean the three boys myself it would interest in a role very healthy very happy got strong morals and good values

yes so we never really got into much trouble no and so you could argue that you did at the

bare minimum your role as a father you you completed your role but then also you could also argue that instilling the morals and values that you did in us we're all flourishing in many ways as well and so that could be also a testament to the values and morals that you instilled in us yes I suppose

“as a parent we never received any training for parenthood but I think we it came naturally”

you know what we'd learned from our parents we simply passed on same moral same values same attitudes we passed them on as being the normal natural things which people should have so yeah so I think I think to that extent you're right yes so let's just say the past 10 years I have taken a particular interest in personal development and about five years ago I invited you to participate in a personal development program known as landmark education which critics could say

our goodness me it's just it's all schmoltzhe waltzhe kind of nonsense and it's too much so amateur psychology with an M.Y. presentation amateur psychology with an M.Y. presentation but in any case I saw you stuck in a couple of areas of your life and I invited you to do this personal development program which consisted of three days where you kind of forced somewhat to talk about your feelings explore your life where you might be stuck what was that experience like for you and

I joke because I sense that it was you had a healthy dose of skepticism participating in it

“but at the same time I think that you found some value to it as well it was interesting”

can't elaborate yes I was skeptical and there were lots of things there that I just didn't agree with but I was also curious there were lots of things there of value which I did absorb I was not prepared to you know there I ever actually came out with anything revealed anything of

of them I thought were just plain silly and self-indulgent but for whatever reason they did it

and they probably got what out of it got out of it what they wanted I was a bit of a skeptical

“observer and at the end of it all yes I think I benefited from it but I had no desire to continue on”

with it or do anything further with it there's a phrase that saying you can't teach an old dog new tricks do you feel like you got some new tricks or not I got well I got some I did get some insights new insights I mean I thought about them for a long time and a lot of it I remained skeptical

and thought it was way over the top and I was resistant to it but now I did get some

some interesting insights so it was it was partially valuable yeah in your generation growing up where Australian men or men in general encouraged to talk about their feelings for examples very easy for us to kind of generalize and say I'm in don't talk about their feelings but what was the what was the the social etiquette or the way that men behaved growing up as you did in the

“50s and 60s in Australia which now you might see has changed now in 2026 I think men were not”

encouraged to talk about their feelings I think it was a very British stiff up a lip

you know talk only into the closest relatives or confidence so now I don't think there was I don't think I'm sure there wasn't a culture or encouragement to share feelings no it was probably more you know get on with it get over it get over it you know get out of the pub if necessary that that's sort of thing and so that you embodied that like you didn't know any different to all no I'd say I didn't know and I yes I'd say that I did embody that

yeah and to greater or lesser extent so what is it like now to observe

“what I would submit I like I tend to talk let's say more about my feelings then”

say you know most Australian men or most men in general and my entire organisation alcohol free lifestyle which is an executive coaching program and helps folks in their 40s 50s and 60s to open up and share it so they can have insight so they can transform like what's your view of this modern day culture I've you know being a little bit more forthcoming talking about concerns of being vulnerable and challenges I'm a victim of my times and upbringing I'm still resistant to it

I now know that it's you know it's perfectly acceptable to do that but I would still be very hesitant to open up my innermost feelings to nearly anyone I had an experience I did a five day retreat at Auschwitz concentration camp 10 years ago in Poland in Poland you were there just for educational purposes to learn about the World War II yes it was a zen retreat it's an annual retreat which is put on a various places around the world where there have been atrocities committed

part of that was what they called a council an hour and a half before breakfast each morning where a dozen people got together with a leader and they were encouraged to express their feelings and about you know how they were feeling about everything and there were those who were genuinely emotionally affected because they had connections there families that had gone through there there were others who I thought were talking a lot of self indulgent nonsense and I was just

I was bewildered so I said look I'll just pass for the moment and eventually I went to the leader and I said look I don't know whether I belong here I just don't feel the way these other people seem to be feeling I didn't have family who were here to me it's something that happened a long time ago a long way away to people I'm not connected with but I am interested intellectually how this happened historically the mindset of the perpetrators at the it all levels and how you know how it all happened

Jew so look in my professional opinion that is a form of emotion that's perfectly acceptable

“you can reveal that at the next council meeting which I did and I got a few good comments about it”

so I compared to the others who were really sort of emotionally involved or purported to be emotionally overcome I just explained that matter of fact much of the ways I have done now and that was perfectly okay as well so there's no way that I could have revealed any feelings or feelings in any event that I didn't have so you don't anticipate in your final quarter of life having some big dramatic reveal to your sons and saying oh I've got this emotion that's coming

through me I want to reveal these kind there's nothing that that you've been suppressing that you

“would love to share but you're incapable of doing so because of the culture that you grew up in”

or is there just nothing that's there? answer the first question no second question I'm not sure

I don't anticipate to suppose there will be anything dramatic like that I don't think I know that I don't have any unrevealed or suppressed revelation to make no when were you most concerned for each of your sons and start with me like when do you recall being most concerned or worried about me that takes a bit of thinking I I do recall being concerned when you left the courier mail and set off for overseas but the courier mail this is a good lifetime courier here good nice and

secure and just for context the courier mail is a roof at Murdoch owned broadsheet newspaper which serves the state of Queensland in Australia and I left high school and got a job as a cadet journalist in 1993 and I ended up staying there as a journalist in a report of for six years until I left at the end of 1998 and then when it moved over to London for four years so I mean that concerned me it concerned me but you know you you got that good job in in sky news in England

to cover the World Cup rugby and then cricket then it concerned me that you are off over to Hollywood to the great unknown and then that turned out fine it concerned me when you left there and went it's actually concerned me in any time when you've sort of changed and become more adventurous so I'd say your each of your adventures has concerned me a bit why do you think that is oh look

“I think it's just the way I am you know I value security certainty stability I certainly”

couldn't be as adventurous as you have been and yet you transitioned out of being a veterinarian and studied law part time for ten years and then became a lawyer yes that wasn't Richter said that wasn't adventurous that was sort of well planned and you know there was a prescribed path to follow there wasn't as much the certainly there was uncertainty when I left veterinary practice as to whether I could get a suitable position in law that's certainly correct so that was a

time of uncertainty but I was driven by determination to do it and again I think the hand of providence sort of came along and guided me into where I was in the prosecution's office and from

then I never wanted to leave there so there's the old security coming back again but I never had

any desire to leave there and going to private practice a lot of people use the the office is training ground to go off and do other things I was never tempted to go and do defense work for instance or to leave there you know I was perfectly happy being there so there's your stability lack of imagination lack of adventure I suppose so how can you explain then my desire for instability and my driver adventure and the great unknown I can't

hmm because I'm not sure there's anything you know at school or anything up to the time

“the left which would have sort of predicted that you're very conservative have behaved that”

way all of your life values stability and then straight after high school I got a stable job great career 23 years old had been in that job now six years and then I chose to throw it away and go over to London England in 1999 not having a job not doing anything and then getting a job there and then throwing that away after four years and going to America living in the Hamosa Beach hostile for 90 days and starting off my American journey as a carpenter or a workman

getting paid 75 dollars cash a day helping some workman build a house and bail air before I figured out how to infiltrate the Hollywood movie system and and get access to movie stars interview them and then sell those interviews to magazines and newspapers around the world that's not a traditional career but no I don't think anyone in their family has ever done that before no I can't explain that then if you're very conservative then nature didn't really play a

role there but then you could also say that maybe nurtured didn't because it wasn't as if you

“were nurturing me to like go into the great unknown and take these risks and yet that's what I did”

we were always we always encourage you to fly the coupon go overseas spread your wings

we always wanted you to see the world but also there was always a hope that you'd come back and settle in Australia so that hasn't happened but no you're right there wasn't any encouragement of you to for you to take the sort of risks that you did so seeing what I've done and how I've chosen to live my life not just professionally because profession and career is just one element of life isn't it but let's say health relationships models values and career

like what have you been in awe of as you've witnessed my time since my early 20s to now age 50 as we're recording it how you how you could do all these things how you could have done them you know the initiative I suppose the the the site and vision of what you could do how you've done it

the networks you've created how you've just gone about it you know things that I could never do

or magic I could never do that I am in awe of that I would I submit that the morals and values that you instilled in me and in my brothers served me well in different cultures maybe less so in the UK but particularly so in the US because my experience in the US has always just been American seem to really welcome me with open arms and and have expressed admiration for me maybe it's my temperament or you know what it is but or maybe they just find Australians unique

but I think if if you know their perception of Australians is the the knock about Mac Dundee from Crocodile Dundee who's very friendly and open I would suggest that you haven't still that friendly ness and openness in me which has then served me well and created opportunities with Americans during my time in the US. Yes well let's as good an explanation as any and maybe a better one than most. So therefore I should thank you for the morals and values that you instilled in me because that

has contributed significantly to what it feels like my success and I don't mean career success but I

“mean adventure health outlook mindset. Yeah that's right you should. Yeah. Does that ring true”

though do you think? Yeah so I think so. Yeah yeah yeah yeah well well thank you. Pleasure. Yeah. Has there been a time where you felt most proud of me one particular moment or instance? Look I'd that's a difficult that's a difficult question I suppose. I don't know this could be frivolous but I mean the time that you are presenting for ESPN Sport and yeah we were seeing you on television here in Australia or not we're not here in Australia or

yeah it certainly made it maybe the deepest impression then but I could be being frivolous there

“I may be able to think of something more substantial and serious but I just can't think of it”

on the spot. And maybe that was because I'm over in a foreign land I mean the US and I'm hosting a pretty glamorous television so yeah you feel like you're a yeah a constant as a way which you are and seeing your son on the other side of the world kind of looking for all the world like me and so people can say yes I yes and was there a time that you felt the most concerned

for Edward and also for Tristan my brothers and just for context again this is not just for public

consumption although people are listening but I want this conversation to be a record for you know many years to come we're Edward and Tristan can look back on it and value it so be careful what you say about them I should probably give you a disclaimer on that. The most concerned for Edward concerned for him rather than about him. Look there have been I suppose I mean he's he's recently had a marriage separation I was terribly concerned about that

“very concerned because I think you know especially for him and bear in mind you know he became”

as conservative or even more conservative than I was and family life seemed to be and his children seemed to be his main focus in life so I was very concerned about that but also pleased that he was able to deal with it very very adequately by the time he announced that you know he was separating but we knew there was some trouble there but it didn't really think that it'd be a go to you know full divorce by the time it had happened he was able to announce it in a matter of fact

sort of way he had already planned how he was going to lead life after that with the children

with work he never seemed to be distraught he he he he has been able to deal that extremely well

“and I think he's got you know a very solid backbone there I've seen him deal with other things”

he he keeps things close to his chest whereas you know it might be better sometimes if he discuss things with you know his family but no he was he's been able to deal with that in a very well balanced sort of a way and as as time has gone on I mean he recently had one big major disappointment in his career but one term later that led to a much better opportunity and again the hand of providence of guiding through he's now on a much better position now than he would have

been previously. Does that answer that about Edward? Yes. And Tristan? Tristan concerned about I suppose the most concerned I've been about Tristan was he took a long time to sort of find his feet and you know settled down and find a you know a good steady career that's the main thing I've been concerned with about Tristan and he he also joined the career mail he came to dislike it and he left and I was terribly concerned about that it just seemed to be throwing away a good

opportunity a good career path and he went through periods of instability after that but he's now landed on his feet so yeah again hand a providence guiding him through and they both seem at worst you could say adequately happy but they both seem very happy and fulfilled at least that's my precious right now and yes that must give you a great deal of satisfaction. Does yes, does yes. I saw you really struggle with looming retirement and you retired at the age of 80 which is 15 years past

train government at least so that is also a unique situation so what what was the angst and the

struggle mentally that you had in your mid to late 70s about retirement? All right it's probably

“not as uncommon as it used to be I think a lot more people are now working on to their”

into their 70s but to answer your specific question I loved being a barrister that was my identity I really are really engulfed the identity of a barrister and a crown prosecutor. I enjoyed the work right up until a day of retirement I continue to enjoy the work. Whereas other people wait until

retirement before they do their overseas trips and things like that I had done lots of that

prior I had three lots of long service leaves so three lots of leave after ten years I had done a lot of traveling I've been to the seven continents of the world I didn't have

“that sort of yearning to do things a lot of people do or anticipate they'll do when they retire”

I continue to love the work and 70 came and I thought yeah well it may be 70 I'll retire 70 came 72 came 75 came and as my one of my medical specialist says well if it's a lifestyle choice continue doing it if you want to and it was it was a lifestyle choice I didn't feel as if I was missing out on anything doing the sort of things that I would otherwise be doing and that other people would be doing

and wanting to do I would have been quite happy to continue on working even to now

“two and a half years before I retired I was offered part time and I thought about it previously”

and sort of poo pooed it but it was offered again all of a sudden and I had to make a decision with them about two days so I did so I went half time and the first month was a shock or I could have reversed the decision but then I realized just how stressful part a full time work had been and I enjoyed the the the greater relaxation the less pressure it had a downside

though because the sort of work I did became more and more restricted I never prosecuted any further

the trials I was doing sentences and other shorter matters which I still enjoyed but it wasn't sort of the real core prosecution work and as time went on and 80 80 80 learned it was obviously I was getting less the work I was doing was becoming more and more restrictive and I realized it will someone at my level they can't keep someone on just doing sort of work that I'm doing and in the end the age of 80 you know it was mutually agreed my time had come so

I accepted that I had probably accepted the likelihood of my doing that for a few weeks before hand no more than a few weeks there was a whole lot of new legislation which had come in and I thought well I can get my head around that okay but what's the point if I'm not going to be using it and for then on I started thinking more and more about retirement the loss of identity it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be I've come to accept it probably the most

acute I felt was when someone asked me to witness a signature had to be witnessed by a lawyer or someone and I had to say well I can't do that anymore you know that was a I realized you that that was a real loss of identity but as it happened I couldn't have worked another year anyhow because of my medical issues so it turned out to be the correct time to retire so did the the mental anguish at times about should you retire should you not or what are you

going to do when retirement actually comes because I know that was a big thing I you kept saying

now since you've retired with those fears that you had justified now in hindsight

well it's about 15 or 16 months now since I retired the first 12 months have been taken up with

medical issues and I had spinal surgery in July last year and knee replacement just before Christmas and they were sufficiently troublesome that I just couldn't have continued working I've continued with my golf as best I can I'm now resuming that more more aggressively my dancing that it that restricted my physical disability that restricted it

so the the answer to your question I don't have a

problem with the answer to the question that you're that you're seeking the answer that you're seeking to your the your question yes I found that normal everyday things they can take more time now what I do expands to occupy the time available to do it in I'm not on as tight as schedule therefore I can take my time doing about things so now up to the moment it's that has not been a problem

from now on I may be looking for things to do and I'm decided I'll probably

resume a playing bridge I'm going to take some bridge lessons again and that's sure what else is your mindset now at age 81 as we're recording this in 2026 is your mindset now what do I get to do in in the 80s or is there fear still or is

“there excitement and sense of adventure like how are you feeling as you never get your 80s?”

Well I'm feeling uncertain and I can't foresee the future I mean I know that for my age I am probably more active and physically fit than other people of my age I know from the gene at my genome which has been done that I do have the gene for longevity I don't have it for dementia I do have it for cardiac problems but I know that and managing that so I have to accept that I may perhaps have a fairly long life

the things that I'm interested in require physical fitness golf dancing at sort of thing the time may come and who knows it could come quickly when I won't be physically fit to do those sort of things therefore something like bridge which is intellectually stimulating

“doesn't require physical fitness that may have a greater role to play but the truth is I really”

and as far as overseas travel is concerned I'm not sure what my future in overseas travel is it's it's more difficult more tiring for me to travel now especially internationally negotiating airports so I just don't know what the future of my international travel is so I just can't quite foresee the future so I'll just head for home here with a couple more questions so what do you hope that family remembers of of you long after your gone

as we're recording this my daughter your granddaughter is a bellow is just a few days older than four months and yeah what do you hope that she remembers of you assuming that she gets you know at least hopefully a couple of decades but just generally you know what do you hope that your sons

“remember of you your brothers your your sister again a very unfocused question isn't it”

well I hope that just remember me as I genuinely was an example of your hard work and self discipline of you know good moral standards who was loving of their children and grandchildren and did all the usual things that children grandchildren did and yeah remember me as

hard to be more specific than that at the moment what do you think really matters in the end what really matters in the end that's the most unfocused question of all I knew you were going to say

“something like that what really matters in the end in what respect look I think”

probably to have left a left a good worthy footprint on life to yeah to left the world a slightly better place than it was beforehand you know so don't know that I can say anything much more without being sounding pompous and we wouldn't want that would be a good worthy footprint sounds pretty good yeah yeah yeah well thank you so much for spending time with me and you know I'm mutual pleasure I'm hoping that the public facing

“listeners enjoyed parts or all of this they were put to sleep with some of the some of the more”

sort of personal things I guess and also I hope that selfishly speaking that my daughter is a Bella watches this one day in her teens or 20s or 30s good interest that it would know so I may still be here with my longevity gene well that's exactly right your mother and my late grandmother

lived to what aged at 104 and seven months incredible 104 and seven months so with that in mind

you have a good 23 years left probably well my father side wasn't so good he died at age 58 but

“so far I've will be on his age so I probably I've inherited my mother's gene longevity in”

yeah well let's set the intention to do something similar when you turn 90 and then again when you turn 100 very well thank you that thank you James Wannick here if reducing your alcohol consumption is something you're seriously considering and all you're considering quitting entirely as overwhelming a concept that that may feel right now and you'd like expert support that I invite you to send us a text message right now in real time to the following number

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