The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive

It's not only UFO library. It's about the unknown.

“So how many countries do you have far from?”

No, I have no. Also to that, we have Japanese farms for instance and Russian farms. Wow! And they went out on the field and brought back debris. What? From this crashed object. They were standing on the other edge of this carriage. And I had very tight helmet, small, small heads and some gloves. She was eight meters from there.

Me, class fun, journalist, author and one of the world's most impressive UFO researchers.

He's a real-life Swedish fox, molder. And that's because he's basically in possession of the modern X files.

I'm not kidding. Since the early 1970s, spawn has not only reported on the phenomenon for Sweden's largest newspaper.

“But he spent decades building, organizing and preserving what is widely recognized as the world's largest UFO archive.”

The archives of the unexplained. This 16 room building houses detailed witness reports. Photographs, audio recordings, radar data, video, and original first-generation documents that no longer exist anywhere else. Time travel? There's a time travel section? What is this? Brown and Birch? Townsend Brown.

I went to Eureka, California. I met with his guy and his garage. We packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world. Borderland, science, research, association.

What? There's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in certain cases in the forties. In this episode, we go over a half-century of overlooked evidence. Radar tracked objects executing impossible right-angle turns. Military helicopters nearly colliding with wingless craft.

Sonar and Radar returns, and, of course, covert European UFO crash retrieval operations. We discussed the Swedish ghost rocket craze of the 1940s. A swarm of at least 1400 documented rocket and cigar-shaped UFOs descending on Norway and Sweden.

Never landing on the ground. Always plunging into water.

A swarm that even caused the Swedish government to form a specialized military unit. An American president Eisenhower to send his top general James Doe Little to investigate. Class Vaughn isn't just an archivist. He's a field investigator in his own race. Interviewing experiences and witnesses at the very center of UFO history. He spent a lot of time with Betty Hill of the famous Barney and Betty Hill 1961 abduction case in New Hampshire.

Everybody knows about this canonical abduction story. But class dug a little deeper and found out that Betty, outside of her abduction, witnessed a UFO crash near her home. She even recovered the debris which she went on to bury in her backyard where it still might be to this day. She said that we are standing at the very top of a mountain on knowledge today. Yes. But the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger.

Yes. That is moving into the future. This episode is one of the hardest core summaries of evidence for UFOs I've ever heard.

“When you speak to other people, have you seen anything unnatural?”

Yes, yes. But I don't want to talk about this. I brought my buddy of Mark Handiel from Yes Theory to the Archives and we had a blast. What is your top UFO photo? Without further ado, please enjoy this week's Swedish Alchemist, Class Vaughn. The existence cannot belong to me in life.

Class Vaughn, thank you for being here again.

We are at the beautiful archives of the unexplained.

“This is just one of 16 rooms and it's packed to the brim full of documents.”

And so, yeah, it's just so exciting. It's like being a kid in a candy store and you've compiled all of this. We started in 1973. We've been around for a while.

That's amazing. So you've been literally compiling things since 1973.

Yeah, that's incredible. I want to start with something you have in your hand. What is that? It's a metallic piece of metallic piece from Sweden. A nylon cold weather north east of Stockholm.

In 1957 to Carpenters, driving the car in the middle of the night. Because we're going to do some work on Monday this was Sunday. And suddenly they saw this object coming from east. Moving in front of the car, making a new turn. And suddenly hanging in front of the car, which was totally died.

So the car stopped and those two guys were sitting in the car and looking at the object. And suddenly it went away exactly the same way as it came. So they went out of the car and took a look at this road. They found this object there and it was hot. So they couldn't really hold it in their hands.

It was so hot, so it was really burning them.

And the car started. And then they went away. After many years this was analyzed and I also analyzed it. And it's turnstereen, all from Carabide. This is very earthly.

It's have every impurity that it was in tungsten in 1957. But tungsten is a very good leader of heat. So this should have been cold in the middle of the night. So the object affected it. So it was so hot.

So it corroborates the story of the two carpenters. So it's evidence. And the car can have made this tungsten hot. You think it was definitely there. No, it was in front of the car.

It was impossible really.

Wow. It's been quite the heat to do that. That's amazing. So that's interesting. That's why can I hold it?

Absolutely. It does feel oddly, you know, very, very smooth, but I'm sure that there's also a natural element of tungsten. It is.

“And you have another object to say, do you have that that brought with me?”

Yeah, this is actually from outer space. This is not earthly. But it is prozek. What is this? This is a piece of asteroid.

Mm-hmm. The crashed in Arizona. Mm-hmm. Fifty thousand years ago. Okay.

You can still see the crater. It's a big museum. At the rim of the crater. It's one kilometer. So it's a huge crater.

You can see it full space. It's very, very heavy. It's 99% iron and a little nickel and some other elements. Wow. So you can tell if something like this from the beginning it was huge, of course.

Yeah. Like a London bus or something like that. If that had hit a city, of course, there were a lot of cities in 50,000 years ago. But today, the city would be gone, but it's just... How much can I feel it?

How much of UFO crashes do you think are? This is amazing. It's so heavy.

“How much of UFO crashes do you feel are physical events, nuts and bolts?”

Material gets left behind. You can have a crash retrieval team going looking for it and finding a thing and trying to reverse engineer it. Do you think a high percentage of them are? I mean, you know, we looked for one in Norway.

We did. But what this is, I mean, it landed and it sank. Yes. In 1946, as we talked about the ghost rockets, the military were looking for them in several different lakes around Sweden. All they found were indentations at the bottom.

Not a single debris. Not anything, not anything like that or like the weather. So it is really strange. I know that some of those UFOs, as we're talking about, could just vanish. We don't have to trace.

Do you know any, because this is an interesting question. I think the audience often wonders, you know. In the US, there are all these rumors of reverse engineering and crash retrievals of UFOs. You know, raw as well as like the, you know, kind of archetypal example of 1947 July. But the crash is often seem to occur around nuclear sites, possibly because there is this sort of nuclear connection.

Do you know of any crash retrievals or even reported crash retrievals where vigilante citizen who's interested in UFOs?

This is a really vines actual material themselves. Not hearings, Scandinavia. And the thing is, I don't really understand why should those objects crash that often. They are traveling presumably through space and they are crashing. Not all the time, but quite often.

I mean, the UFO enigma to me is much more complex. And I'm not sure whether that we are dealing with like this physical objects all the time. We are from time to time. I talked to Swedish radar observers that have told me about objects that traveling huge speeds over Sweden. And of course, they are physical, but some are not.

“So where in between could we distinguish this is a one of our UFO hardware?”

This is something else. Yeah, I'm not sure. Do you believe there are government crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs? Not here in Sweden, not I'm sure about, but in 1946 we had. Yeah.

There were out in the government sent military out to several different lakes and tried to find those crash objects. You showed us photos. Yeah. But do you think in the US there is an official program around these things? I'm not sure.

I mean, I have my expertise here in Sweden really. Of course, the military should be interested to find hardware if there is any kind of strange object. Yeah, you'd have to dedicate resources to even. Yeah, absolutely, could be Chinese, could be Russian, could be something completely different.

“But I think your authorities would be interested.”

You know, people know of Hesselnen in Norway as UFO hotspot. What in your mind are maybe the top five UFO hotspots in Europe?

I mean, Hesselnen is interesting from many aspects first.

In the 1980s, like the 1980s, we and you from Norway had this huge expedition there. And we could take pictures of them. We could also see them on radar once. But the thing is nowadays in Hesselnen when you see something on a scientific instrument. The light, the thing is coming up from the ground.

Going upwards. Never. The other way. We have his Sweden dollana, which is in the middle of Sweden, where we have had several waves for UFO observations. We have a place on the island of Gotland, called Mactabo, where people go to a certain stretch of a road.

Watching for lights coming wandering on this road. But we also know we have been there. We have travel around and drove our own cars. And they are shouting, "Oh, that is the object." But it was our car.

So there is no place you can go here in Scandinavia to be sure to see something. Except Hesselnen is just too long enough. So that is really the UFO hat spot. Yeah, yeah, it has been there for many years. The thing is about Hesselnen.

Even though most of the things you see are lights in the sky. If you talk to the people there, they can tell you ordinary UFO stories as well. With crafts and sometimes even beings. Yeah, we were there and it was not. It was very easy to tell that an extremely high percentage of people that live there had experienced things.

Like upwards of 80, 85, 90 percent of people.

And that was all of the report. And everybody had family members and they had experienced things. It was ubiquitous pretty much. Several people in Norway, they have experienced stuff like that. Like that's seeing things, but they don't. They have to tell it because they are afraid to being just nice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

“So that's why I know when you speak to other people.”

Have you seen anything unnatural? Yes, yes, but I don't want to talk about this. You could almost flip the percentages in any other place where if you were to pull people. Yeah, they would say maybe 10, 15 percent would be open about, you know, it's the opposite. And you're the pariah if you haven't seen it before.

I mean, we knocked doors and talked to 1,600 sweets and 10 percent of them.

And seen something. That's remarkable. That was only one of them who did it. Want to talk with us. You know, once we're very open.

Okay. And the interesting thing is that we have 22,000 case files from Sweden here. Yeah. And presumably 1 million sweets, 10 percent over around 11 million.

I've seen something. Wow.

“And last night I talked with the lady who wrote me a letter.”

And she, for the first time told anyone outside or family about something happened in 1971. You know, October 1971. She was basically in small city in the middle of Sweden. It was daylight. And the train was coming.

And this is so strange, you know. It's a typical strange for me. Back in the day, I used to chug coffee like I was prepping for a quantum jump. But then I'd crash like my nervous system got slingshoted through a kaleidoscope.

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On this train there was a carriage with scrap metal.

Pile. She's sold two men on that looking for something. There have some like backpacks but it was not backpacks. It was like suits like the Superman. Yeah.

But the one color on this silver color. With something protruding out of their back and worked out. And she watched them personally. They were standing on the other edge of this carriage. Looking at her.

And they were holding their hands on the belt with the small box. And they had very tight helmet. Small, small heads. And some gloves. And she was so frightened. She was eight meters from that.

That's very, very close. And suddenly she went away and they went away. And carried on with whatever they were doing. And it was nearly impossible to walk that distance on this carriage because it was so much scrap metal. So they just travelled over the metal in a way and were standing there.

But you turn around and you can see that we're still working looking for something on this. Wow. It's super strange. Did she speculate as to who they were, where they were from at all? I mean, she started to read about UFOs and try it.

And nowadays, she's over 70 years of age and he looked YouTube and whatever. But she asked me what I thought. And I said to her, this is for me a typical encounter with strange beings because it's not typical. You're right. So they are so different. So they were.

So it's typical for things to be unable to categorize. Yeah, for me it's strange. You really take a look at all of the spectrum. You will find that.

“That's what Jacques Delay, John Keele, a lot of these UFO researchers. Once you get past a certain point, you get into this idea that the phenomena can seal itself with this absurdity element that is injected into every experience.”

Absurdity is the world, you know, that's a keyboard. It's really absurd. And so it's so absurd that it pre-stigmatizes itself, like the story you just told me of men in a garbage pile. Similarly, doing the most low-tech thing, wearing the most high-tech suits, teleporting from can to can or whatever, sounds insane. Yeah. But I'm sure that happened.

And so that seems to be this very common theme, this trickster element. Do you think that that's at play here, this idea that the phenomena almost wants to cover itself?

So the other ones, you say, "Oh, this is typically with this reaper."

They're not very common here in Sweden. You can get them. But if you're really digging to all this, the pile of observations, you are finding so many other stories. When you were talking about the sighting, where the woman saw the being with the backpack thing protruding. Yeah.

And the suit reminded me of a friend of a friend's account. So my best friend's sister's best friend. Yeah. She was in Mexico and back California, I think. And just like sunset taking photos of she was drinking like a coronavirus taking photo of it with the sunset behind.

And maybe half an hour later, as she goes through the photo, she's something very similar to what this woman does. She drew it. So she was very scared to show the photo, but she drew it for me. And then we were going to get on the phone so that she can show me the photo just like via zoom.

And I think she had cold feet.

“And I can't tell if it's true that the photo disappeared from her phone, but that's what she says.”

And she just says, like, she can't find it anymore. But it was in one of the photos. And again, she was looking at what she was taking a photo. She didn't see it with her own eyes, but it appeared on the photo. I mean, that is so interesting because some of those aliens are carrying equipment.

Yeah. Some are not. Yeah. And it's literally like what you were describing. Yeah.

It is. That's amazing. That's so crazy with the blue backpack and jumps. It was like, uh, some sort of a metal detector thing. And they're on the beach in Mexico.

It's like what is so weird. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's almost like a ganzo movie or something. Yeah.

Yeah. That's absurd. Show the time. Yeah. But speaking of photos that were taken where the person didn't even witness what ended up being seen in the photo.

They accidentally took a photo of it.

And in this case, an amazing UFO. This is Claude's new book, files of the unexplained.

“And do you want to tell us a little bit about this photo?”

I mean, yeah, it's taken by a hand on my girl books. We should see if we can find it in here so we can have a bigger picture of it. I don't remember which paper it was. Yeah. I mean, look at that.

So, uh, this is Vancouver Island. And you've met her, right? I'll talk with you on telephone. So what's the story behind this photo? Well, she was out driving together with her husband and she stopped.

This mountain is quite well known. It's sort of October the 8th, 1981. And she thought that the cloud seemed a little nice over the top of the mountain. So she took this picture and coming home later on. And got because it's an old film.

This is not the digital film, it's an old camera. She found that there was something up in the air. And it really looks like a proper ice author with a dome. Do you think this photo is real? I think it's real.

I don't sure how it ended up there. But I talk with her a couple of times and I mean, she didn't fake it.

“Anyway, I think she's really doing this because she's curious about it.”

But she don't understand. She seems very earnest to you and not drifting or lying. She helped us with the picture and no problem with that. To me, it's like this very famous picture. You know, there's Elizabeth, this little girl sitting there with nice dress.

Oh, but her father out there in this more. There were only them. His wife, little girl, took the picture. And when he got back from the photographer in the business, he could see this creature standing behind Elizabeth.

So the guy would develop this, wow, I'm sorry. But this nice picture of Elizabeth is ruined. Somebody stand behind her. He's called the Astral because this looks like an Astral. Nobody knows how it ended up there.

Out on this more, only them, only three of them, three horizon. Wow, what are the most? Because if you look at the free Edgar Mitchell database in the US of abductees or experienceers, over 50% experienced humanoid creatures. So creatures that seem to be bi-pedal walking upright,

almost similar to humans in many ways. Is that similar to what you experience in Scandinavia? I mean, we got stories from people that have seen like books like entities floating.

If you are into this for a couple of decades,

“wow, you will find that this is more complex.”

It's not only humanoids. So interesting. So alien is such a simplistic. It's such an oversimplification. I think so.

The idea that's like, oh, we're not alone there on space and they've come here. Thanks for understanding. We won't understand strange things. Yes. Well, it's true.

I mean, when you look at, you know, it's funny. Everybody references in the US, the 2017 article from Leslie Kane, which outed, you know, awesap or whatever. The program at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012. Before that, you had Bigelow, study at Skinwalker Ranch.

And everybody talks about that. Like, oh, that's the official alien investigation program.

And if you look at what they were doing, it's Skinwalker Ranch.

It's like, they're picking up weird electromagnetic signals. They're poltergeists. Yeah. There's like a werewolf. And that's, oh, some of the anti UFO people try to show,

they think it's like all crazy or whatever. But it's actually just a way less simple phenomena than, you know, you can't, you can't memeify it into this simple, you know, it's just a gray alien. They're from Zaderarticuli, they're going to appear at some point in the future.

It's this game of whack-a-mo and it's deeply embedded with human consciousness. It's a good summary, I think.

“I mean, you must really look very broad about this.”

And that's why I have you here. It's not only only, you know, full library. It's about the unknown. So how do you make, because you, I've done this, you're curculean effort where you have 16 of the room that we're in,

which is filled to the brim with documents. How do you make progress in a field where what we just described? It's almost like Dick Hart's demon, where your whole perceptive apparatus, everything you see is at the discretion of possibly some of these entities, showing up in random places and that it's like,

how do you progress in a field where it's like, we're chimps and we're trying to study humans. How do you progress? It is very difficult to do that. Most geophologists are looking at a particular small part of the subject.

And if you do like this, you will never get ready with what you're doing,

because it's so very much more complex than you thought from the beginning. So most geophologists are saying, "Okay, this is not interesting." I'm looking at that. Yes. And I think that's not the way forward really.

But even beyond that,

“like I look at like, you know, Jacques Valle,”

we were talking about earlier, one of the best theorists on the topic, you know, for French godfather of a lot of modernism. Amazing guy. And you know, on par with you,

as far as all your encyclopedic knowledge, he, you know, like, if you read some of his early books, like invisible college or something in 1975, are we that much farther, as far as the theory as to what's happening?

Then he was then. No, I don't think so either. That's sad really. It is. It's really impossible to get further,

because it's so huge. Yes. And there is no really good scientific approach to this. Yes. But we have certain scientists that are interested in this.

But they are looking there small bits and pieces as well. Would one new scientific model involve, you know, scientists supposed to be, you're supposed to be this impartial observer. Yeah.

And then you have the observed and there's, you know, clear, distant separation between those two. But maybe in this new model, your own consciousness or orientation towards the subject, somehow matters.

Absolutely. I met with the friend of mine who is a doctor, and he's also very much into the German consciousness research. He's done research on twins, and see what happened if a twin is hurt,

and if the other is affected, and he found that yes, there are clear indications that twins are interacting without knowing that. Wow. And he really says to me that the German consciousness is a big part,

even of the UFO phenomena. It has to be. And I think so as well. Yes. Are you familiar with studies in parasycology?

Yeah, that's right. Because if there is some sort of mind matter interaction, then that obviously has to affect, you know, what we see. Yeah.

We know so little about those inside our hands. Yes. Yeah. Grey mass, but that's not the answer. Do you think, you know, when you speak to Jacques de Lé,

he says, you know, you're very disappointed to find that these were just beings from another planet.

I'm going to be very disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than visitors from another planet,

“because I think they could be something much more interesting.”

It doesn't have to do as much with space as it might have to do with space time itself. When time seems like a time travel is a big theme, and a lot of his writings and, you know, when he speaks and stuff. Is that something you've thought about at all? Yes.

Absolutely. I don't think the answer to the UFO question is one. I think there are many different answers from different parts of this huge complex. So it's very hard for, say, scientists approach this with an astronomer. They will only look at this very small part.

They need to be a group of scientists and your followers or whatever, don't we just together. Time travel? There's a time travel section? No, time and time travel.

What? Time loops in space twists. Let's see if I can find a random Steve and stuff in the world. I have no clue who now I request. I'm not sure.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure. This is also scientists. Oh, wow.

So you can see here if you read the labels here.

Coralis. Yeah, William Coralis. He wrote this series of books called Sourcebook Project. Ah. Only about an igmas.

So here you can see the psychology. It's working papers. And he posted away. And I contacted this video and it took me a couple of years. Was he at all?

“Was there any part of his official work at NASA that overlapped with UFOs?”

No, just a hobby. Yeah. This is what they looked like. Biological anomalies, mammals. Oh my god.

This guy's a genius. Yeah. Who is this guy? This is amazing. We call this pond for many years.

Stanley Post. Wow. And then I wrote to his state. Yeah. Okay, hunter with his son.

And his wife was 90 plus. Yeah. And she started to compile everything in order for us. Wow. And we sent two pallets from the US.

Oh, she's amazing. Yeah. And this behind your hair is the oldest UFO group in the world. Borderland, science, research, association. What?

That's the most interesting UFO organization. Because they knew, you know, they knew about crashes. Sometimes before they would happen. Like, there's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in certain cases in the 40s.

Yeah. About stuff. They were first. So what? What's their deal?

Because they were funded by that guy. The mysterious guy. What's his name? He was like an occultist and like a magician. Yeah.

So, oh, and then they had. They had all the early stuff around UFOs before intelligence agencies did. I went to Eureka, California. Uh-huh. I met with his guy in his garage.

Uh-huh. We packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Wow.

“And he has Tesla and what is this brown and berage?”

It's probably correspondence. Who's brown? Maybe Thompson Brown. Did you hear him? I don't know.

He immortal cell. Run brown. Run brown. Oh, it's outtowns in brown. Yeah.

Yeah. It can take a look at what this is. It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year.

New year. No phone. No gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it.

Something glowing. Silent. Descending through the trees. A UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an android.

It was me. But better. Same face. Same great hair. But something was different.

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We're on a lecture kinetic generator here. That's amazing.

Well, the borderland society we had connections with Brown.

They had some apparatus still left in the garage. That couldn't bring. Oh. That was short if they were functioning.

“But I think they are still left in Yureka.”

Really? What apparatus? Yeah, I don't really know. It's like big boxes with switches. Really? Why?

Yeah. I want to check that out. I'm more interested in him than anyone else. Yeah. I understand.

I've heard a book about him just pick up a month ago. The Manimaster Gravity. What did you think?

I think we're supposed to make it.

It's fascinating, right? Yeah. Is neither most interesting man. How many mysteries around him? So many mysteries around him.

He was on to something. I think so. I think so.

“I think there's something very interesting about him.”

How is he? Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. The Holy Grail of Physics involves the unification of the four fundamental forces, which includes finding a missing link between the lecture magnetism and gravity. Einstein actually spent the latter half of his career trying to solve for this mathematical.

It is my belief that this spooky inventor may have experimentally discovered this long-sought link. [music] Which UFO case impacted you the most and changed your life the most? I grew up with a born and born and born case, of course. And that was hugely important to me.

And when I met Betty and the years ago in the early middle of the 80s, I got a quite new view on her. So it's important to meet with the witnesses. What was your new view on her when you met with her? Yeah well I was most of your followers and if you read the books,

it says that Betty was not interested in UFOs at all. Before they encountered her, didn't he? Yeah. But she was. Really?

And not only that.

“She told me that she was sitting on the porch together with her or I think it was sister, whatever.”

It was a relative. And something came across in the sky and crashed. And they went out on the field and brought back debris. What? From this crash object.

A few years ago before this happened, this was in the 50s. I was over here in May visiting with a family. And with a warm night, we're sitting outdoors on the porch. When we saw what we thought at that time was a plane. Very slowly going across the sky.

And while we're watching, it exploded. Medea and Burrup. No. We said, you know, we've seen a plane blow up. We turned on the radio.

We turned on the TV. Nothing. Wow. Up to my butt my mother's. My nephew had seen this burning debris from down to the sky.

And he watched it. And I'm going to cool the off. He got some of that. And my sister gave some pieces to me. And said, you know, we don't know why it is.

Maybe I had some friends at the university. Maybe you can get some of the analyzer. So I had all these pieces. And I had them in the closet there on the top shelf. And, you know, I didn't find anybody to admire them.

So just before about four days before we left to go on the trip, Bonnie said, why should I stop up on the top shelf? Why don't you start away with could use the shelf? Well, I was having some feel for it in the back yard. So I took the pieces and I tore them in the back yard.

And when they got the sand, they covered a lot of three days later we go on the trip. Really, Betty, help. Yeah, but she broke it before her encounter. Yeah. Everything is still out there in the garden.

So we got to go to her house. You must dig it there. I will. Yeah, it's not for house anymore. But it's in New Hampshire.

It's in porcelain. In porcelain. No way. So that's story you can listen to. I'll tell you a few of this website.

I have this conversation with her. It's in writing. And you can hear her voice telling this as well.

But the bottom line is she was very much into your phone.

That's fascinating. Yeah. We got to go dig. Not the single you follow this really. Carousen bodies.

They don't want to know this. Her granddaughter is a UFC fighter. I think she's friends with Joe Rogan and it's gone on the show.

Yeah. Say hey, who are the residents of the current house. This is under the bill. Dig and find this thing. You're wearing this epic Betty and Barney Hill.

OG's first abductees, 1961.

No, I know his granddaughter. Yeah, she Angela Hill, right? Should UFC fighter? Yeah. So cool.

Crazy. What if she did my podcast and didn't tell me. So after the podcast was, oh no, Joe Rogan. The grandfather was Barney Hill. I was like, no, that's mad.

That's amazing. She should do that. She was a lovely lady, I should say.

And she told her very interesting story.

And also when she drove the object to me. It looks like the books with sharp edges and big windows. And the brim. Like a hat. Wow.

And you believed her. Did you feel like she was being honest? Yeah. She was absolutely honest with me. And as such, she was very nice lady.

She treated us with a sponge cake. And we were there all the day. So it complicate the story. Yeah. Just for the audience.

The core story is in 1961, Betty and Barney Hill. They were an interracial couple. And they were ACLU activists, actually.

“And they were on a road trip from, I think it was like Niagara fall.”

They were in Canada. They were coming back down to New Hampshire. And on the way, they see this craft and it's flying around. And I believe there's audio. And we'll play the audio for the audience.

But like Barney starts to like go after the saucer. Like almost like it's like he's locked into it. And she's afraid. And wants to keep going. And then he's very afraid of that.

So he don't want to pursue it. it. So anyways, they meet these beings, they say they're from Zeta Verticuli, they have these uniforms on these little gray beings, they get taken up on the craft, reluctantly, I believe Barney then admits that like samples were taken like gametes were taken for themselves from him, so I almost felt like some sort of like experiment being done on them.

The check-toon is teeth and there were false teeth because he had false teeth. Ah, interesting. They came running into a birthday and all of a sudden, "Oh, what's that? What's it that?" Interesting. That's the interesting thing about those aliens. They don't seem to know anything

“about that. You should think that they should know.”

They're right. But in that account, it almost sounds like they're truly trying to figure out what's going on. It's not like it's like this routine thing. But they also do this pregnancy test on Betty with the needle and that was old here at that point really. I mean, it's not very high tech, nobody does that anymore. So why do aliens from Zeta Verticuli use a method that is ancient? What do you think? I think this is not visitors in that way.

And this was only told during hypnosis. Yes, later had nothing to do.

They never really remembered it in the waking.

So what do you think they had an encounter with? That's very hard to tell. But I think that there are just all those stories. So much more complicated, much more complicated. She was a firm believer in aliens visiting Earth. Right. She told Bonnie about her interest in that and didn't like that at all.

But it's almost like that interest might have shaded their perception of what happened to them. When in fact, what happened to them was much more complicated. I mean, if they're being said, we're from Zeta Verticuli, that does point. Well, they didn't say that because that was the storm app. She drew a storm app. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The storm app is, of course, who can do that with lots of stars. Right. But they said we're from another star. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She asked about this map on the wall and they told her that this was commercial lines where I'm traveling to make, make this this. Yeah, I believe I've read American Cosmic by Dana Pesolka or Emilia with it. Yeah. So she talks about the CBS show, Outer Limits playing

“That's what that time is. Playing 11 days premiering, 11 days before this encounter.”

That's how it was. Yeah, so the crash meto debris in her cover that had happened before. So many things before. So it can't really be sure exactly how they interpret the taste during hypnosis. Right. Pesolka also says that the aliens in outer limits have eyes that wrap around

shaded by, yeah, maybe they're preconceived notions and knowledge. Yeah. So interesting. Yeah.

You know, also another weird fact about that case is CD Jackson, Charles Douglas Jackson,

“who ran psychological warfare and was very involved in MK Ultra and then went on to, I believe,”

give this supporter film, which is the, you know, film of JFK getting shot with the missing frames. He gives that to time magazine because he's very involved in sort of a perception management for the public at the time. He's head of the psychological strategy board with Gordon Gray and a few other guys at the time. He goes and visits Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after their abduction. Okay. So interesting. So it was already like, you're talking about the elite of the

elite of American warfare operations. You know, guy who's very high up at the government going to visit

these two abductees. So strange in 1961. Yeah. Well, I don't know. It's not easy, you know. That's not easy. But I think we have to find that artifact. Yeah. Yeah. Have you been digging for any other artifacts? Are they any other objects? Yeah. Here is Sweden. We have been up in the north. It was a guy who said that he was a young boy. He met this craft and aliens outside his house and he got this thing from them, some sort of metallic tablet. And he hid it, he hid it on the

ground. And we went there together with him, trying to find it. Wow. But we couldn't find it. Really? No. Is there anything you ever found any objects that you think are? No. We haven't

the only one that I showed you. I mean, things like that, but not an area bona fide, the smoking

“gum thing like that. Do you believe that humans have in their possession on the civilian side?”

Objects that might be from these beings, whatever entities we're interacting with, because as you know, Jacques Bolae publishes his mailing address online, people will mail him pieces and recently Gary Nolan actually just went on Joe Rogan experience and, you know, one of the pieces came from Ubatuba, Brazil, where this explosion occurred on the beach. There's fishermen. Magnesium. Exactly. Magnesium with extremely anomalous isotope ratios. It's also read that there were

such things at that time. Well, I think it would have been possible to have created, but you would have needed a centrifuge and why the hell would somebody with a centrifuge, you know, give a piece of metal to somebody in Brazil on the beach to mail to Jacques. It just feels a little crazy, but why do you be the spaceship with magnesium? It doesn't really, it's not very good to travel in. I'll tell you why you'd be in a spaceship with magnesium. Okay. Because magnesium

business is a high K-dialectric, so it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and it discharges it very quickly. And so if you look at like, you know, my belief is the anti-gravity or gravity manipulation effect is the bio-filled brown effect, been named after towns in brown, and if you put a high K-dialectric insulator in between two capacitors, one negative and one positive electrode, the thrust increases dramatically, the higher the K-dialectric. So all of his papers include

it's two things. It's a aluminum barium and magnesium business. And so, and, and, and, and bismuth specifically is this big, this big, really important part, but I don't know, maybe magnesium itself has some, some issues with it. Yeah, magnesium itself is not good, but if the salori may be something different. Well, it seems like the, what he found had, it was like micron layers thinner than a human hair. Bismuth layers less than a human hair, magnesium samples about 10 times a size of human

“hair. And so it's extremely thinly aligned, and I think you get these topological insulators like”

that, where when you excite them, you seem to have electron coherence occur at scale, and you get these very sort of anomalous effects. And you even have aerospace looking into some of these, these things. So what do I do that explode over your back so much? So that, the speculation on Gary Nolan's part is that that was the exhaust. That was, that's almost like the, the byproduct of the craft, and who knows, you know, but. So the exhaust should spit out metallic debris.

Yeah, I don't know. Is it something that they're using and they need that ratio to accomplish something? Or is it a byproduct of an effect that where they take the natural things and then they're doing something? And this ends up being the outcome. And then when they're done with it, they go, and they throw it out. Do you hope to find a material? Do you think you can? I hope, of course,

We are mostly focused on finding recent ghost rocket crashes. I mean, in 1980 there was a landing on an object that sank in a lake up in the very north of Sweden called Damajaur.

“And we have been there, and we have radar returns to something you see in the mud. Really?”

Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. So when are you going to go a lot? We will be there again next year. That's

exciting. So hopefully we can find something to a very good witnesses. Wow, in the middle of the day. And they can see this object coming below 100 meters. Yeah. Flying over them. I follow it over the lake. And it turns around 180 towards them, lands with splash and sinking. And bubbles are coming up and then it's gone. And then they take out the camera from the rock sack and take a picture. Of course, it's gone. But they take a picture to me this after the object is gone. They

go back to Stockholm and contact the military. And the military is you are full expert at that time, student leakage. He really looks into this. Try to find an explanation. But they couldn't do that. And they sent an helicopter over the lake. And I met one of the pilots and they told me this is a natural park, natural nature park. You're not allowed to land there. But suddenly one of the passengers felt sick. Yeah. So they land. And they can see dead fish on the near the shore. So it

“takes the fish with them. And I think, wow, this is atomic power. There was some radio activity. I”

killed the fish. But it was only a parasite. And we found the same dead fish when we came there many, many years later. So just a parasite. Yeah. But in that many of it is there. It's four meters of mud. And our expert who went with us said, if you see something, it will be not at the bottom of the lake. Yeah. But in between. Two meters. And exactly there we got this return from an object that is still resting there. Really? We don't know what it is. But there is some object. Do you

the shape of the object? No. We only saw it in two dimensions. So next trip we will look in three dimensions. Wow. We are not allowed to bring anything with us from this natural park because it's a natural park. Yeah. So if you find something, we cannot bring it up. Well, if you need any extra meat in your car, media coverage or help in any way, I would love to come. I call you. It sounds amazing. It is amazing. And this is a very good observation. And we have several

cases like that, that object term, like in Norway, flying very very low, turning, navigating,

landing, seeking. Interesting. And it always seems to be in water. Always water. And the thing is,

Richard didn't really think about until recently that all those observations around water. Of course, people are living there. It's summer. They are out. It's good observation. I mean, they could see it with the lake. But not the single one has seen any object flying over the lake. And not landing. Every single observation ends with the crash or a landing. Not the fly by. It's so interesting. Why do you think that is? I mean, they want to land. They want to crash.

“They want to pinpoint the lake. That's for sure. And I'm not sure why they do this. Do you think it's fuel?”

I mean, they're running out of fuel. No. Do you think water is there? Oh, you mean that? Because, you know, the bonds between hydrogen, oxygen, H2O are impossible to break from a human perspective. But if you were able to amount the energy necessary to break them, then they would be extremely energetic, that would be an extremely energetic reaction that could, you know, power. I think it's like driving your car into a gas station for power. I'm trying to get some petrol.

Yeah, fair enough. I mean, they should land and be there for a while and fly away. Right. But they're either crashing straight down. Yeah. We're landing quite hard. Yeah, but it might be hard from our perspective and it might be.

You can always see fueling. I just don't know. It's interesting. I mean, they do water just

seems like this very important element, you know, the idea that they're transmitting. And it's important. It's not to sing a little bit as crash on land. It's weed him for Norway. That's amazing. Yeah. The fact that they literally only the ghost rocker phenomena. Yeah.

it's not just the ghost rocker phenomena that only hits the water. You're saying all UFOs have only hit landed in the water. And yeah, it's weed in generally. So we didn't, skin the Navy. And skin the Navy. Yeah. So post 4647, all UFOs. That's amazing. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

This wow. That's so interesting. And it's all nearly always. 11 o'clock July,

“clear weather, hot weather. That's what you said last. That's so wild. So strange. Yeah. Well,”

I mean, there's definitely some selection bias based on our observer bias, because that's when people are on their lake houses. Yeah, but there was his song flybys. Yeah. That's weird. I don't don't see those landings and crashes. That's so strange. We have only small sample. I mean, maybe 30. Still, that's the fact that you, I mean, that's enough to, that's that's a really important trend. You were just given access to incredibly sensitive DOD archives here in Sweden.

Yeah. What did you see? I mean, looking for the files from a very important military customs police operation in the early 1970s. They are still to be released in 2014. But dark, just the other day, got to clearance to get them cleared. And did you see them? Yeah,

“I looked through them, but I will get the copy of them in a week or two. Well, what did you see?”

The interesting thing is that I found one observation that I knew the observer, this helicopter pilot, he was on standby looking for the trespassers that were flying in from Norway to Sweden in nighttime. Very strange object. Sometimes aircraft with no signatures, no lamps, nothing. But this night he got an order to lift and go up to his helicopter, trying to intercept an object coming from Norway. And he and his co-pilot, which I will talk to next week, he was flying

20 meters over the tree tops. And it was moonshine. It was snow. So it was very, very good seeing. A suddenly this object coming, flying under the helicopter over the tree tops. And this small passage of 20 meters, straight up in front of them. An elongated rocket like thing with no wings, no lights, nothing. And it just flies away. And it told me that I did like this. I lifted my feet because it was so near our helicopter. Wow. And now when I got those documents, I found this report.

I could see the radar plot. But they are intersecting their paths. And also the note from the music. So it's picked up by radar. Wow. And you see the radar plot where the object is intersecting

with this guy's helicopter. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. And they land off to this landing.

And the security, the military security personnel, calms down and debrief them.

“And he tells the story and they went, went away. What was the shape of the object?”

It was an elevated rocket like thing with no wings. So similar to the gas rockets. Typical gas rocket. Typical gas rocket. What year was this? Ninety seventy five. November the seventh. How fast was it with the object? I thought much faster than the helicopter. But they had plenty of time to see because of the moon and the snow on the ground. That's amazing because in the U.S. you have, you know, the kind of one of the holy grail events is the Tik Tok incident,

we have Nimitz in 2004. And you don't have radar data for that. You have forward-looking infrared, which is kind of controversial. Yeah. And they say that the radar data ended up getting classified. In this case, you have an eyewitness and you were able to see corroboration from the DOD archives

that this object intersected this helicopter at this time. That's amazing. And I would talk to

his cool pilot in a couple of days and get his view as well. So we had two witnesses, documentation, and what I'm looking for now is of course the security personnel notes. Wow. I have no access to that. I'm not thinking we'll not have any access to that. How would you get that? I would try to get it. But how would you get the security personnel? I know people that works within the war archives. Okay. And they can help me to save that. It's there. To see if like he was actually debriefed

You were debriefing people after all those events. And did you, and you've spoken to this, witness firsthand? Yeah, first time. And I talked to this helicopter pilot just a couple of days ago. Yeah. As soon as I found those documentation, I called him and said, okay, now I know which date it was. And I can see that they made this note that an object passed very close to the helicopter.

“And this is being declassified for everybody at what point would this be released to the public?”

Yeah, I mean, it will be. When I'm getting it, it will be. And so when when will that be? When this will be released? No, in a couple of weeks, I think I told depends on how much I have to do scanning. Is the pilot in Stockholm? No. Where is the pilot? It's far away from here. Okay. In Sweden there. He's a really near Norway. That's still coming. He's

Sweden. Yeah. Then the other part of this in Australia. Okay. Wow. Amazing. Well, that

seems like an unprecedentedly important. It is. It is a good case. And I hope that I can really find all the pieces here. Do you have any other cases like that where you have radar corroboration for an eyewitness sighting? Because that seems like very long. Yeah, we do have. I've seen with my own eyes on the narrator. Beautiful. Really? Yeah. You've seen with your own eyes.

“No. And when was that? And what's the context? It was, I think, 2005. It's what we call the first”

mobile picture of UFO in Sweden. It was two guys up in this cottage in the very north of Sweden. They were sitting playing card quite late. And they're here, the strange noise. So they went out and they saw this very illuminated object coming towards them. And it's moving around this cottage. So one of them get this mobile phone and take a picture. And you can see it's a very bright object with the, that flashes around, but that probably a lens flare,

but it's a very bright object. And it flies around the cottage and then it vanishes. So I go to the the military radar unit, which is very, it's a very secret. You cannot just go there, but I know people. And I can see the radar returns from this event. You can see the object coming going around. It's an invasion. So yeah, that's a case to you can cooperate.

That's absolutely incredible. Have you seen, so you don't have UFO material? Have you seen

the remnants of the UFO? Just like you showed me that little piece of wrong, where it's interacted with a local physical environment. No, no, there's luck in it. Okay. Because you told me last time about Willie Pads being affected by the ghost rockets. So you're showing that it's interacting with the physical environment. Radar is obviously reflecting radio waves. And so that's like

“it's a really important, you know. And I have to you the six people at the radar station in”

very, and also Sweden. Ah, really. I found them one by one. They were there in the winter of 1973, 1974. At that point, they had left this mountain, you know, they're deep inside the mountain. They are up on the surface at the lunch. And they are looking out around and suddenly to see all the tree tops, this cigar shaped object, moving like this. So they are running down into the radar equipment, some looked and they could see the object on the radar screens. And it's

doing 90 degrees angles like this. Wow. And suddenly it flies away over Norway and straight up. And every one of those six I found them during several years are telling the same story. Wow. Yeah. All six. Yeah. That's amazing. Do you have them all on camera and stuff? No, I have them

on tape. Okay. But that's good. But the problem is that they told me that they are commander

in the mountain. They were also by him to take pictures of the radar screens. So they did. Yeah. But I don't know where they can be. Is the tape published on your website? No. No, I never published the tape. I written about them in my book, something like that. This is a hit or evidence, and it's walking around. They are post-away now, but they're still

So on the half of the books you see here comes from Hillary. Look at these books. Some of these

are beautiful. Yeah. Those are the classic ones, really. Oh, for yeah, for Dr. W H wires. Yeah.

“I have that book. And we have it in very early editions. You know what inspired him to write this book?”

I don't remember now. Jesus is a resurrection. He wanted to prove it using science. I don't hit anything on his death. William James was a president of society for cyclical research, but he was close with William James and part of that. You know what this is? Yeah, of course. What do you think of this? I think it's something military, but not what the conspiracies are. Conspiracy theorists think that this is weather modification, weather control.

Yeah. If they're doing that, they're doing it very, very bad. Speaking of conspiracy theorists,

you wrote a whole book on solar flares. Yeah. So what do you think of solar flares? People say that now we have very high solar activity in that the magnetosphere of the earth might be weakening. The magnetic pose are shifting. That's proven. Yes. But the Charles Happgood that that creates this sort of cataclysm. No, not Charles Happgood's theory really, but it's okay. The science theory is really solid and it could be a problematic when it happens. Interesting.

Because every gadget you have like trying to navigate with would be topsy-turvy. Yeah. And some of the solar events in the past, like the 1859 Carrington event would wipe everything out if that happens today. It'd be a very devastating. You'd have no electronics, no Wi-Fi, and your grid would be down, no running water. Yeah. Yeah. And we don't have the spare parts. Yeah. So it would take months and months and months to rebuild the electrical system.

“Do you think that solar flares send with them a message or there's any sort of intelligent?”

You know, there's a scientist in the UK. He's in London, in Hampstead outside of London. The River Chaldrick. Yeah. And he talks about the sun being conscious. Yeah. Do you want to get a book in the 1970s? Yeah. We're up with that and I know about River Chaldrick, very well. Yeah. And no, I don't think the sun is conscious. I think it's a star.

Uh-huh. And the star does what the star does. Yeah. And the earth is not important to the star. Yes, but, okay, far to push back. Maybe. The magnetosphere of the earth is very important for all animal morphology to grow correctly. Like you could put frog embryo on a fair day cage and it won't grow correctly. If you put an actual Wi-Fi router,

it won't grow correctly. So there's something about the human resonance, which is part of the anthropic principle that allows things to grow. And then the sun creates the perfect amount of UV radiation to create the perfect amount of mutations to allow for, you know, you know, biological evolution. Like if evolution were too fast, it wouldn't be adaptive. And if it was too slow, it wouldn't be adaptive. And then now we have this new physics that how put off is exploring around the possibility of a

scalar field. The NASA and the DOE just published a podcaster on scalar physics. Yeah. And so these scalar waves would get produced by the sun and they move in ways that are don't decay or attenuate over space time, like your traditional transverse hearts in wave. So you could have some sort of communication, you know, to life on earth via the sun.

“It's communication. I think it's what the star does. I mean, every star does things like that.”

And they are not aware of it. They only do their thing. But of course it affects the life on our absolutely. Yes. But you could say something very similar about a human through materialist reductionist lens. You could say we're ultimately, we have the illusion of consciousness,

but we're not conscious. And so, you know, we'll never know. I think it's quite a big difference

between us and the sun or it's impossible to say that. I mean, clearly yes, phenomenologically. But are we anthropocentrically cutting off consciousness at a certain scale because that's our scale, you know, I don't know. We are a tiny new fraction of the universe, so. Yes. This is my friend Frederick Fildal. He's a good guy. He's in Copenhagen. Do you know him?

we did the David Grash then. So, how many countries do you have Filds from? Who?

I don't know. I have no, also to that. We have Japanese farms, for instance, Russian farms. Wow. I went to Russia once trying to say the KGP farms. And when I went there, it was fighting in this reef. It was soldiers everywhere and they were shooting. But we were able to find a guy

“who had copies of some of the KGP farms. The more do you have any, does anything coming up for you?”

Excuse me, I said to you that KGP is doing the best and I'm just curious. Why? Yeah. Why am I doing this? Because I'm very curious about our world functions. I want to know what people really see. I want to get to the bottom of this mystery. And I've done that on several cases. I know, know what they saw. But there are a couple of hundred cases during the years that I'm still very buffled about. But I don't want to prove anything.

I have no X to grind. I'm not a believer. I'm just a curious researcher that I'm aware of that the answer could be something quite different from what I thought from the beginning. Is there something autobiographical, whether it's synchronicity as you experience something in your

“own life that keeps you going, where when you're thinking of maybe stopping or quitting?”

Something quite stubborn. What's that? That's stubborn. Sounds like you are. Yeah, and I'm a natural researcher really from the beginning. I'm just a astronomer and all that.

I was chosen the educator of the year here in Sweden's amazing. So people know that I really

try very hard. And of course it's okay to believe, but I want to know. Yeah. And when you say no, what is that? If you were to instantiate that in something very specific? No, I want to know what happened really. I'm not sure I want. I can not say you want an alien being to come down and tell you, do you want a material where like this is definitely interesting to say someone to know what happened. That's tough, man. Because it's tough.

I even think about what people talk about as disclosure. And it's like if a craft were right here and an isotope ratio is that we're weird and technology that we don't really understand as

“far as antigravies. You know, you know, heavy element, reactor thing. What would that do for us?”

Like, that would be something of course. Well, change everything, but it would get a thousand more questions. It wouldn't be like, you know, your whole, I want to know. It wouldn't be like, I know now, it would be like, I don't know. Tell me what is going on. Yeah, if you say every knowledge gets some new questions. Yeah, that's true. Knowledge questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge, growing. So it's like, you could think of knowledge like a volume in a cylinder or a sphere or something.

The more the sphere grows, the questions grow, you know, the outside and an exponent. Yeah. And so it's the, the more you know the less you know. And that that really should be sort of with with everything. But then you have these sort of stultified fields, which is how, you know, academia teaches it where it's like this received wisdom. And it's like the law of thermodynamics. And it's like, you know, you get to the end of the chapter and it's, that's it, you know,

end of it. But nothing is that simple. I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain of knowledge today. Yes. But the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger. Yes. That's this moving into the future. That's beautiful. And suddenly we are a little higher

up, but there is always a new mountain. Are there any philosophers in the UFO space or even

outside of UFOs, who you think speak most to the UFO question or researchers that you're really inspired by. Yeah. I'm inspired by, of course. But Chris Allback. It's a very, very good researcher. Yeah. It's the best researcher when it comes to old cases. Yeah. It's fantastic. It's books are fantastic. And one of his latest books called Sousers shows that the source to shape is so scarce. It's not very much reported. Yes. Still people talk about flying Sousers sometimes and think that

it should be Souser like. But it's only a fraction of all the observations. Yeah. Souser like. Yeah. Even if you look at like the where the saucer came from, you know, the Kenneth Arnold case.

personal. Yeah. Cressants. Yeah. Like ninja stars or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's interesting.

“Do you think, you know Carl Yeon wrote a book about flying Sousers or familiar with this?”

Yeah. And he said that, you know, that was the Mandala, which was the Sun-Script symbol of psychic completeness is represented in the UFO. Okay, our good type talks about them. In a way, I understand him, but I don't think he's very important to you for his search. Yeah. But of course, if you're living in Souserity, in a society, you are telling the stories that Souserity can manage truly so too. Yes. And we are conforming all the time. So it's not strange that it was airships in

the 1800s. Yes. And full-fired tourists and then ghost rockets and now space ships. It's

just that we are using the words we have the most high-tech thing we can think of. Yes. So I don't

think it must be anything of that. But what's also just John Mac, you know, Harvard, you know, how do the psychiatry department there? Yeah. He would say that the tech we would see would be at the bleeding edge of what we could even create. So it isn't some way. So in some ways you are snapping it to a grid and you have this meme in your head and you're superimposing it on what you understand. But in other ways, it's actually like leading technology itself. Like airships

were just starting to be a thing, but they weren't really a thing in the 1890s. So maybe they're

“inspiring technological innovations. And you can say the sound about the sci-fi right, does you know?”

Yes. They have been leading many of the guys who got us to the moon. Yes. They read the sci-fi first. Oh yeah. And they were inspired by that and thought, wow, this could be done. Yes. So you need that element to be able to take the next step. You absolutely do. And I think, yeah, you need the mythological

element almost always supersedes the actual doing of the thing. But I think we have

lost that for at least a little period after World War II maybe. And now where it seems like things are speeding up again. And then after the World War II we were occupied with all the stuff really. Yes. Feeling the world again. So yeah, the dreaming where maybe put in the drawer for a while. Do you think there's something about, you know, just the space programs themselves that interacts at all with the UFO phenomena in a deeper way than meets the eye? I don't think so.

No, I don't think so. Because you said he spent some time with Edgar Mitchell right? Yeah, yeah. So Edgar Mitchell's the sixth man to walk on the moon. Yeah. Apollo 14 on the way back from the moon. He had this sort of parasycological conversion where he was experimented with a Swedish guy. Really? Oh, really, tell me about it. Yeah, they had managed to put these programs that Edgar Mitchell should be sending. Oh, things. The other one was to pick them up. So like a typical

mind matter experiment, we have a sender and a receiver. Yeah. Okay. But there are some problems with that because the time frames were not, they were not followed as they should have been. But it was interesting that they did it. Very. And was it a successful experiment? Ah, not that successful. Okay. No, no, no. It didn't prove anything really. No, but it was done and that was very interesting. And he started this society afterwards at your midship to work with the cyclical things.

“The no-edic society. Yeah. What did you learn anything when you spent time with him?”

Yeah, the thing he was very adamant about, not the single astronaut that I've ever seen a UFO in space. I mean, I'm not sure about that. I'm sure he said it to me. So I mean, yeah, but maybe he was a mole. But they all sign NDAs and I don't know if you know this James Fox story, but Buzz Aldrin, according to his sister, had seen a UFO as a fighter pilot in World War II. And James Fox had heard rumors that he had also experienced things in space.

And so he followed Buzz Aldrin all around the world. Buzz Aldrin is like, I'm in this country. I'm in this country and he's paying for hotels in the different countries just to interview Buzz Aldrin. And he's about to get his interview. He's staying at the Monte Carlo Hotel in Monica. And Buzz Aldrin says, I'm not doing the interview. I said, what do you mean you're not doing? It was like, I can't do it. He's Paul Allen, just invested in

setting and he got labeled a UFO freak or something. And I can't jeopardize my initiative. I'm working with Congress right now. I'm trying to get money to develop a rocket that's going to help put civilians in the space. I can't do it. He's implying that he has something to say about

to change anything anyway? And I said, well, with all due respect, sir, people of your caliber coming forward really helps elevate this topic. Your testimony would be paramount to do that.

“And remember, this is in the 90s, right? Yeah, probably late 90s. I talked to asked him, but yeah,”

it was a while ago. And so he's like, well, I can't, I'm sorry, it's not going to happen.

So that was devastated. Like, devastated. I mean, maybe we're reading into it, right? You never

know, you want to believe, but he's kind of implying in that comment that he has something to say about UFOs. And so, and then there's speculation obviously in American cosmic that, you know, astronaut signed NDAs for a reason. You have this guy who now has been outed his name is Tim Taylor, his NASA mission controller, and he says, you know, astronauts are forced to stay silent, but they all see stuff in space. And so, you have more and more coming out about this. So,

but you think, I know a lot of astronauts and conspiracies. You do. Yeah. And not a single one of them

“has said anything like that. Fair enough. Do you know any very well or like, you know?”

I mean, the Swedish ones I know very well. Okay. I go to New York, I meet you very well.

Okay. I met with a couple of the guys who walked on the moon and a few or maybe ten cosmonauts from Russia. Yeah. And one of them told this story that he fooled the other guy in the capsule when he knocked his elbow in the capsule. It produced us our ice particles flowing flying out. Yeah. And he said, wow, look there. Oh, wow, it's a fleet of UFOs. That I know, but I only tried to comment on things that I really spent time.

Do you know Leon Evans, one of the fathers of the Russian space program? No, I don't know. So, his goddaughter is a woman named Dr. Eo Whiteley. I don't know if you're familiar with her,

but she's a space psychologist and she sees a lot of astronauts and she says they all see stuff

in space too. So, it's so interesting because that you seem extremely hard-headed and thorough. I mean, they're like, just thorough guy. And so like, I fully trust you when you say you know a lot of astronauts. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. No, I do too. What's so strange about Edgar Mitchell is Edgar Mitchell left behind in a state and he had many papers in the state. One of the papers from the estate is the Wilson memo, which is now talked about ad nauseam and American UFO disclosure,

you know, where you have records of Eric Davis who is a civilian scientist who's obviously extremely well-versed in exotic propulsion, you know UFO stuff related stuff. And Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 joint chiefs who's supposed to be in charge of all, you know, military technology and they're meeting outside of the EG and G parking lot. And Thomas Wilson is livid that he hasn't been read into UFO programs. That wasn't meant for public consumption.

And that was released from Mitchell's estate. And that was supposed to be to strike one year after Mitchell got a copy of it as a courtesy from, from who generated it. And unfortunate that his kids were sloppy and and I guess Ed was sloppy in that he didn't give any instructions on what to do with that document. If he should die, but he was supposed to destroy that as far as I understand. It seems like Edgar Mitchell is had some really interesting access. He was very interested

in UFOs. Yeah, absolutely, very interesting. Why did he, if he goes to space, none of his colleagues see anything in space. He does a couple of Paris psychology experiments. Why does he come back so high conviction that, you know, I mean, he was a believer even before. I mean, he was. Yeah, see what's curious about this, but he didn't see anything and he says to know what else they

“saw. I only can tell what he told me. What were the interesting things he told you?”

And we talked a lot about the method you're a gallery, you know, it is very much your regular. He was very impressed by him. I met him or a gallery as well. I'm not impressed by him at all. I have friends to do exactly the same tricks as he can do. Yeah, he seems like a bit of a comment. Yeah. Well, he also, he got, now he goes on Twitter and he goes, he goes, put in, don't press the button. He goes, I had a vision that you're going to, and it's like, he's been wrong so many

times that it's like, nobody even care anymore. And I met with James Randy, you know, James Randy. Yeah, of course. Yeah. We sat like this, but he even closer. Yeah. And he, he bent his phone

it like that. I couldn't see. Yeah. But the thing he did, he put my, my hand over my own watch. Yeah. And then his hand over my hand and then he moved it. And it was five hours like that. Yep. And we did the game and he was back to the same time. It was so interesting. Interesting.

It's hard to do that. But uh, well, he was an amazing magician. Yeah, he was the amazing

rat. The amazing Randy. But he, he also, I don't know, I think in some way, he could have been a bit bad faith act. Like, Gary Geller is one of these things where cases where, you know, the, you know, the Princeton Parapsychology Lab has a whole book on Gary Geller and like, they studied him a lot, Andre, who put Puharic, brought your Geller to the States. I think it was there to get a Michelin meth with your regular. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So I think there might have

been something interesting going on with him from just a peer-to-peer psychology perspective. And then he also blew it out of proportion, had all this BS stage magic that he was doing. And then

you get the amazing James Randy with his prize to, you know, be. But the most gullible people you

“can, who can all score are the scientists. You should put, that's interesting. What, well, what”

do you mean, I, I kind of agree with you, what, what do you mean by that? They are not prepared to be, to be fooled. They are prepared to watch if I can see something strange and bestured. So they think their, that reality is, that's so interesting. Yeah. So they're not, they're not prepared for magic trick or something. No, no, no. Hmm. That's a good, that's so fascinating. I like the way you put that. Anything else that your Mitchell told me? Oh, we took for hours and hours. I don't

remember now. I wrote a long article. I think you can find the article in this. Okay. If you are, I'll take it for my name at Mitchell. Of course, I published it and it's, it's out there. That's it was nice to have a long, long talk with him about everything that I was interested in. What, what, and UFO related meeting impacted you the most? Oh, that was hard. I mean, when I was

“young and my first investigations, I think that made the most impact on me because there was”

its huge observation near my hometown when I was 16. There were lots of policemen and journalists standing at the top of this mountain, watching for hours, an object moving in the south. And I was out behind my house at the same time, 100 kilometers away. And I also saw the object, but they didn't understand what it was. And they were so excited about this. They made drawings that was really fanciful and they were so much speculation. Every newspaper wrote about this. And I knew what it was.

Well, I wrote to the newspapers. I was 16 and I published my explanation. It was the planet Jupiter. It switched for hours. And it was so scared about this. Everyone took pictures of it. They were printed in the newspapers. And I could compare the stars around this object with my pictures, taking the same evening, hope Jupiter. Why the same stars? While they'd be so freaked out about the planet Jupiter. Because they didn't know what it was. And it doesn't normally show in the

sky there. One guy, who's civilian, was there. He was an Adamski believer. Okay. He was a true believer that Adamski had traveled in space with egglings. Yeah. And he pointed to this object and said, "Can't you see the windows?" They were looking, "Yeah, yeah, we can see the windows." But what I could see were the moons to three moons that were Jupiter at that point. That's unbelievable. So he was impacting them. And that was a very, very good learning for me that if you have a

group of people, they tend to see the same stuff. Because you don't want to be the guy that's

spot. Deviate. Yeah. Sports to party. So they're crowd-like dynamics. Absolutely. That's also my first

big UFO case. That's so interesting. It's like Gary Nolan, where he got into becoming the UFO

“scientist by debunking a case like the Adam comic or whatever. So at what point you do that?”

You debunked this case. Yeah, I did. And then at what point do you decide you're going to dedicate your life to UFO research? I already decided that. A couple of months earlier. So this was just the big case. But then I met a lot of people with strange stories. That was very much

the moment? I started a small UFO society in my home town called Uphomari. Did you have an experience? No. No. Not at that time. I had not seen anything. I was just curious about how everything works and what did people see? I wanted to know what people saw in this guy. Have you had an experience since then? Yeah. Yeah, I had an experience together with my wife. In 1995, November the fifth. We were out traveling back home. It was midnight. We had been out meeting with guys.

“So I think it was a birthday party. I was driving and I only was sitting. Deciding me, we were just”

coming into our, the suburbs of Stockholm. We were very near our house. And there were two guys standing at the bus stop waiting for the last bus. One of them were pointing up in the sky. Other one was lucky. So I sat to handle it. Can you lean forward and see what they were looking at? And you did that. But you said no. It's a fantastic sky. It was. It was a brilliant, starry sky. All the night we were traveling back to Stockholm. So we passed them. And we were

quite near our house. So we parked the car inside our garage. And we went out and after now, I will take a look and see if I can probably find out just a planet or whatever. So we scanned

“the sky. We stood one meter from each other and suddenly out of the black in the Gemini between”

Castro and Pollux. Not from the horizon. Just back. Came three illuminated plus sides. Pum, pum, pum, pum. Wow. And they flew, they flew over us. And I only saw it immediately. So I didn't have to say anything. They said, oh, did you see? Yeah. So we ran after them around the corner because they passed over our roof. And we can see them flying over our neighbors, roof, and vanishing. And they were like glued together. It was a small space behind beside them. But they were glued together.

And it was so easy to see when they say glued together. I mean, it never moving exactly the same

speed. Three different plus sides. Were they like three UFOs, perpendicular to one another, or were they like, beside each other. So it was a odd, okay. So they were plus sign formations of UFOs. No, never, never plus sides. Solid plus sides, not solid plus. Wow. Have you ever heard of the case? Not at that point, but I took a look at, but I should say one more thing that I said to Analy. We don't talk. We go inside. Here's a form. You'll sit in the kitchen. I'm sitting

here. Smoking like a true UFO or a surgery. So you literally made yourself like this double blind, went in and then you both described what you see and you didn't talk. No. That's amazing. You maintain your discipline even in your own sight and what you're doing. That's awesome.

So we made drawings and everything and they were not exactly the same and they never are,

but they were of the same objects. Wow. Yeah. And after that, I put an investigative for you for Sweden to try to find an answer. So he tried to see if he could find an answer to this, but he couldn't. Were the plus signs, what color, white, white, white, and how fast were they traveling? Wow. How low were they? They felt very low, but it's impossible to tell them. It was a black sky and stars, but they were not satellite altitude, not aircraft altitude.

They were lower. Any other anomalies like red-ingle turns or disappearing or lights or? The thing was that they were really coming out of the blue, or the black, not from the horizon.

That was a strange thing. It's like they just appeared. Yeah. And I never talked about this.

Anyone, for months, except for their searcher, because it was so strange. But half a year later I was into you on radio and I was asked, have you seen anything? And I couldn't lie. So I told the story. And then the telephone rang, a couple hours later,

“and the guy said, "You should talk to my mother." I called her. She was in her 80s, and she was”

a young girl in the 30s, and she had been out with her mother, who was inside the house.

And suddenly, on the road in front of her, three illuminated plus-size appeared out and over.

Rolling on the road. Jutes. Wow. And gone. Wow. Were yours also rolling? No. No. Okay, hers were. Yeah. Yours were more floating. Yeah, really. Rigid. Rigid. Really. Wow. That must have, it's almost like a cosmic joke that the UFO researcher sees a thing that looks so not like flying saucer, or even though the flying saucer wasn't seen that much or

triangles, or is it the more common thing?

“Class, do you think, what do you ever wonder what if in one of these random vanilla envelopes?”

The answer. Yeah, or is just the most undeniable evidence? Yeah, of course. We haven't read them. Yeah. I mean, we have read some of them. So you need, we need to get you funding, man. Really need to get some funding to make you still available. Do you have any plans to digitize? We do it on the time. Okay. Only time. We only have one guy to do it. Wow. So he's sitting on the other lounge, you know? Well, what's up, guys? Let me give him a shout out.

Life or strength is a real hero. Life or strength. Thank you for doing what you're doing. That's amazing.

Who has spent the longest amount of time here as an independent UFO researcher has gone the deepest on the files besides you? Yeah. Yeah. Who could that be? Who have some friends in your book? Of course. Yeah. Gregor Judd from the U.S. Ah. He spent a couple of weeks here writing his book.

“He's a professor in history in Penn State. Interesting. Why did he see in the UFOs?”

Yeah, he wrote this book about the history of the UFOs. He did. Yeah. Okay. I don't know who he is. Well, he's often on TV. He's very good. Do you like him? Yeah, I like him. Really good research. Do you know the Penn State, Eric Walker? Do you know who that name is? Cool. Dr. Eric Walker? He was at Penn State in their materials lab. He was a lead scientist. And he had a lot of interesting meetings where he seemed to claim that he was part of the

majestic 12. There's a British Armenian physicist named Asadel. And that guy spoke to Henry Asadel. A very, very loose guy. He has several names. He published his silver diamonds North Africa thing which is fraud. So do you think he's like an intelligence or yeah, I don't trust him at all. So maybe do you think his conversation was in real with? I don't know about Henry Asadel. He's not a bona fide UFO guy. Because you know about his conversation with Eric Walker.

I don't know about that, but I know about to Henry Asadel. So I mean, I'm sure you're familiar with Grant Cameron. Yeah. Yeah. So Grant Cameron wrote a book and and it is a whole transcript of a conversation between Grant is a good guy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really I mean, he faked those top three months or he did spread them with the knowing of that being fake. Apparently there was a meeting between Kit Green and Eric Walker where Kit Green was like, I want to know about the UFO

secrets and Eric Walker kicked him out of the office. And it was like, I can't tell he was like, I know about this, but I can't tell you any got very paranoid. So I, you know, and then there's also, I'm sure you're familiar with Steinman William Steinman. Yeah. So William Steinman also had correspondence with Dr. Eric Walker. Yeah. Because he was in touch with Sarbacher. Sarbacher described

“somebody like Eric Walker as being very involved with crash retrievals. And so he I believe he”

went to Penn State Steinman. Him and Scott, was it Scott Crain? I believe his other colleague. Mm-hmm. And they tried to meet with Eric Walker and Eric Walker. Again, it was like, you guys are chasing your tails. You're like, I think he called them actually. There's a call between Steinman and Eric Walker. And he said, you know, what do you know about the six cents? What do you know about Si? And then he says, you know, nothing. I don't know anything. It goes until you know about that.

You don't know anything about this. And you're chasing your, your basically it's like don't keep a text. Yeah. It's fascinating. So I was just thinking that because this guy's interesting, you know, but not to Henry. As a doubt. Yeah. Yes, too many problems. But but you can't, if somebody is an

intelligent and they have a lot of fake stuff involved with them, you can't always throw the baby out

at the back of the car. For sure. Yeah. You always have to take everything with a total grain of salt.

circuit, who I'm pretty sure are like this info. But you, that doesn't mean you should not talk to them.

“No, no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then hold things in very low probability that they say”

and look for real corroboration. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Sure. Sure. Yeah. But there are too many of them. So it's very hard to distinguish. There are a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying with the Henry as a dad of me, like maybe some some stuff's true, some fake. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You could learn how to be like that. So class you mentioned a damp ski, which is a very interesting case around a guy who also

might be kind of a con man or snake oil salesman hard to say, it seems like he was caught in some

lies. Some people think that he was just a puppy for the government or things like that.

Right. But the manual of the pictures he took, you know, those mother shapes and scout shapes. He was traveling. He said with the aliens to the moon and all his things. Do you think there is any thing to any of his comments or statements or he was hanging out with some interesting people, you know, seeing it with George Vintassel, right? Yes. Who was, you know,

“Howard Hughes contemporary. And so do you think there is anything to that case?”

Yes, sir. I thought it's rather complicated, but I don't think his pictures have been properly analyzed. I think they should be, there is one guy who did some analytic work on it,

but he don't want to share. Yeah. When I asked him, he didn't want to share how he did it.

Yeah. And I don't like that. I know there are diaries that are damp skier out. Yeah. And I would love to see them. I know that landstackling has read them. Yeah. And I would love to learn to share that, but we haven't got that far. Yeah. So there are still some openings or closings. I'm not sure which one it is to the case. So I want to know more really about a damp skier. So you're not even made up your mind? I'm not made up my mind. I keep and

slightly open door. Yeah. But I think most of it are not as good as it should be. What about Billy Meyer? He's another Swiss. Oh, yeah. You are my adult trust. You don't mean you think that he hoaks the photo's look too good to be true in many cases, but then also complicated where people say, you know, in the beginning he was attracting real stuff. And so, and you get the same things sometimes with the crisp blood, so if you want a story or no, in the beginning it's good.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't buy that. You don't buy it. And if I have loads of his pictures, the tone and some of them are so incredibly bad. You can see that our model standing on the table. That's not good. That's not good. He used even pictures from books. Yeah. You know, the time traveling made to the dinosaurs. Yeah. Yeah. That was so strange. I have the book at home. It took a picture or the dinosaur in that book. I said, oh, this is a picture I took when I would travel back

back in time. That's great. That's crazy. It's not. He says that in the book. Yeah. Okay. I had to after this. That's hard to take him. It really says he took a photo of a dinosaur in the book and it's a clearly a fake photo. Yeah. Yeah. I have the book myself, a comparity. It's exactly the same picture. Jesus Christ. And you have this picture run an alien. He's standing with this ray gun in his hat or her hand. I don't know. The alien is cut exactly there. So you can only see the arm.

And this incredibly fake looking gun like from a toy store. I just had a guest on. He said this

“guy's in Jason, Reza, Jordan. He says that Billy Myers was like an MI6 agent. Have you heard of that?”

Billy Meyer. Also not really his name. I mean, his name was Edward Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. The guy was 007. He was a James Bond style super spy field intelligence operative working primarily in the Middle East. Billy Meyer. Yeah. Until he had an accident in Turkey in a bus accident, his arm was severed. And then he moved on to this property in Switzerland where he became an older man and he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the contact

deep phenomena. I didn't know that. I dug up this and have documented it all in closer encounters. Whoa. So Edward Meyer was working for somebody in the Middle East. The gave him access to all of the Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shawbyron and particular he was very close to the King of Jordan. Billy Meyer. Billy Meyer. What? Yeah. And British intelligence. You follow his tend to love to make stories better. Yeah.

Billy Meyer. Really tried to do. That seems to be a thing. I mean, one of the best books I think

“in UFO research is Jacques Boulez, Messengers of Disception. Yeah. It's like you get all this”

cult creation around. Absolutely. You know, certain figures in UFO. It's interesting because there are, here is Sweden. We had quite a few saucer cults. Yeah. Where guys want to make themselves a bigger than they are. Really? A tool story that are quite far out and goes followers. Mostly women. Okay. Interesting. What do you think? I feel like I need to ask you because you've probably seen more UFO photos. Then maybe anybody in the world. Yeah,

loads of them, really. What is your top UFO photo? Is there anyone? I mean, the thing about UFO photos is that they were better earlier. Yeah. The 70s. And when you call the guys or talk the pictures in the 70s, the 10th to say, okay, I fake it. Really? I did so with every single

Swedish 1970 photo. And it's always young man. Not the single girl. And when I call them 10 or 15

years later, they said, okay, I admit, I did it. It faked. Except one was still maintaining story. And that picture looks so faked. But he's a Christian. He's a very firm believer in Jesus and lives a good life. And I gave him the chance every second year I call him again. And so,

“hi, it's me. You can admit that you faked it now. And he won't admit it. Yeah. What's his name?”

Oh, he's a guy here. He's Sweden. So I'm not sure. He kissed the sunstorm. Okay. Yeah. And can you have the photo? Yeah, I don't have it here. But I can of course

you can send it. I can send it to you. I love to see it. Absolutely. Is that the most visually appealing

clear photo that you can't debunk? It's incredibly clear. I can fake it any minute if I want. I did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I did it as well. Well, that's a problem with all these photos. Oh, you see you did fake it. Yeah, I did a fake. Where you can fake any of these photos. And then someone, certain ones, you can't also debunk. And so they end up inherently in this liminal space where if you have a guy who seems really honest and like there's no incentive

to fake it, then you're stuck. There's no way to fully prove it or disprove it. The thing is that it's not the picture. It's a story. I mean, when you go through this guy and make an interview and to make him show how he saw this incredibly strange trip and how he took the picture and what happened afterwards, then it falls apart. Really? Yeah. So you think that there's that it's fake because the story doesn't actually exist. Yeah, the story, if you meet with people, you can get the fact

you need not by analyzing the picture. But this very Christian guy, do you think that that photo is fake? Yeah, I think it's fake. Do you think it's fake? Yeah. So what's the best UFO photo that you think is real? Yeah, I was trying to find out that those people should say the Macmin wheel. Macmin wheel, yeah. But of course I went to this conference in, you know, for a long couple of years ago and this analyst showed us that you can clearly see there is a string

if you make a really data enhancement of it. Really? So I don't know anymore. Oh no, Macmin wheel. Yeah. That's like a holy grail, you know. It's very hard to find the picture.

“You can say that wow, this, this is good. Wow. You have to look for the story. So there is”

it safe to say there are no UFO photos that you're very high conviction are real. Yeah, I have no photos that I'm except the one I told you about with the radar returner I saw myself. That picture is of course of the thing that flow around the lake and the radar picked up. So that was in the northern part of Sweden in 2005. And since I saw the radar return myself on the military radar. Yes. I know it was there. You know, of course he couldn't

know it was the military radar. So you have on that case you have radar, you have a photo. Yeah. You have to know what this is. Any of two witnesses that might be one of the best UFO cases ever. It's for real. Yeah, that happened. And that's the one you're going to go digging for. No, it's around the same area around the same area. It's not connected in any other way.

Cross, what do you know now that you wish you would have known as a researcher 40 years ago

getting into this field? I would love to understand that it's very

“scores time. You have to make interviews with people before they pass this away.”

I miss so many who are no longer there. Who's top of the list? Lots of people from the Go

Stroke at the era. Investigators and witnesses that I, oh in the 1980s when I started to pursue that, they were gone many of them. Who's the number one person? I was a policeman up in the very north of

Sweden who was very much doing research and met people around north Sweden and made interviews.

I missed him. That's really, really sad. I missed of course several of the witnesses around the

“lakes. It's cool that you chose a police officer and the witnesses, which I think is a testament”

to what you focus on, which are the chord details of what happened in each case. Whereas a lot of UFO researchers assume truth on this large scale and then they get into all these kind of pontificating metaphysical questions and so you're, you know, very obviously rigorous and so appreciate your

“time, man. Thank you for having us. Thank you, we can see.”

Alchemist, did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy Magazine, we just launched on Substack. That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every video. With weekly articles exploring all of the strange forgotten and conspiratorial corners of space, history and high weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tiers on Substack. I am including the full link in the description of this video.

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