Dave Eggers (writer and publisher)

We have one of my favorite authors on today. Dave Eggers. Dave Eggers is a bestselling author and founder of McSweeney's. His books are the circle, a heartbreaking work of staggering genius. The every and of course my favorite book. What is the what? He has a new novel out now. Contra Posto. Please enjoy Dave Eggers. [Music] We have not so much to say. Amanda made me want to give you guys these. This is a new McSweeney's in the form of

a rapper who's been testing people and you're the first like you more millennial in 1987.

“Nobody has had any idea what to try. I loved to try or keep her. Which one did you have?”

You know what's funny is that I did not have it because I didn't like the artwork. I was such a star. You were already bradied about. You already pretentious. I was. We're sad to have like a leathery one. In Detroit, you grew up in Illinois. Yeah. In Detroit, you aged out if you were a boy of a trapper keeper very early. Third grade and beyond, you were a target if you had a trapper keeper. Yeah, for sure. Anything Velcro on your shoes?

Yeah, that's a deck for kangaroos without. With us, you wore watch or calculator watch or anything like Casio, you're dumb. It was really just anything I'm going to guess it has to be the same. Anything could flag you as being girly or gay. And it's just like or a nerdy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's

“why like when the rise of tech had freaked me out because I was like, well, these were all the”

kids that always got beat up. If you had like good on your wrist or whatever, and now those, you know,

why are they more benevolent? I know you were born in Boston, but moved pretty soon. I've lived in Boston, I love grandfather. It was an OBGYN in Boston, general. So we were all born there under his. Now that's an interesting dynamic. Did your grandfather deliver your mother's children? No. Oh, okay. But it's colleagues who he's nearby. But he was fascinated like he was the Gino to all the nuns in Boston. And also all the unwed mothers. He ran a hospital for unwed, I mean, fascinating stuff

that we have been uncovering more and more lately. Is that your mom's dad? Yeah, mixweeny, Daniel James, mixweeny. So he's delivered half of Boston. Yeah, probably 10,000 babies, you know. It's a cool job in that way that if you've been in practice for many decades, you really have effectively delivered or brought a significant percentage of the population into the world in the area. That's wild. And you're part of everyone's best day of their life. Well, that's where the mixweeny came from.

Like there was a guy that was adopted in this home for unwed mothers. And he was adopted by a different mixweeny family. But he saw my grandfather's name on the birth certificate and later in life, he thought that was his real father. So he would seek us out and write crazy letters to us all my childhood. Saying he was coming any minute on this train. He's kind of coming real night with his

“long last sister, my mom. Oh, that was interesting, mixweeny. And that's why we named this whole”

thing. After him sort of this lunatic screaming from the woods, which we thought we were at the time, like as a magazine. But I just found more of his stuff. Like it got a little scary here. Yeah, that sounds it. That's an intense feeling. If you're like, oh, my father's there waiting for me. That's a very motivating. Right. I'm coming home. Product is on. He had been looking for me. Yeah. Yeah. Some of these relationships are just too intense. So they make them intense.

So what kind of attorney was your father? What kind of law did he bring? Commodities law. Commodities because of the cognitive war there. Yeah. So at the time, there was only

handful of people that did what he did. So he never went to court and it's just a brief letter.

I trust this settles the matter. John, yeah. You had some unique experiences early on that really, I met you could acknowledge set you up for the life you ended up having. Just this notion that I learned Mrs. Wright, second grade. First, first grade, assigns you to make a book. I still have this book. It's cardboard cover. Yellow line sheet paper where we wrote the story and then illustrations above bound with yarn, blue yarn that it still holds up. And we spent months on it. These books were

perfect. They had no typos. No errors were allowed. We had to redraft, redraft. And then draw the pictures very carefully. And on the back it says copyright, David Eggers. What have been 1978?

done that had us do it again in fifth grade or it did another book in eighth grade. So by the time as an eighth grade we've written and illustrated and produced three books. And then in high school

we did the first literary magazine with a computer. So their brand news 1986 or something.

First Max first desktop publishing. And so I learned design and all of that stuff when I was 16. And then I was just your set book. When you made the first two first grade in fifth grade were you more into and proud of the illustration portion or the right way part? I only saw myself being a cartoonist. Like that was all I did 24 hours a day till I was maybe 13 or so. And I thought you know I started the Disney animators or I wanted to be you know Calvin and Hop's Cave about

that was gone. Peanuts studied and all I did was draw all day. When about like far side where you went at that mission that you could communicate comedy through this. For sure. I met a been 14 or so when he popped up. What's his name Gary Larson? Yes, I listened to the so weirdest interview with O'Reilly. Kim on Sam Harris. He has studied the art of persuasion to an insane degree. Where am I who are you trying to persuade to do what? So weird. He knows the science of persuasion. It's his big hobby.

It isn't that weird like you have these amazing cartoonists, him, Berkeley, brother, and Bill

Watersen from Calvin and Hop's and they all retired at like the very top of their game like Bloom County just went away. But what age were they? 40s, 50s. It's so weird because I go to the Charles Schulz Museum up in Santa Rosa which is incredible. Yeah. You go to his desk and you see all of his stuff and he worked till the very end and he was really good till the very end. But uniquely it's a job that people tend to knock off and quit at a certain point and just go out on

their best note, I guess. But I do miss the far side. Still there's nothing. It's good as it. I have a theory about comedians. comedians don't tend to age all that well. I do wonder if it applies to these cartoonists. Comedy is about being shit on and calling out the powers that

be in the injustices and the grievances. In the friction of being a shithead at the bottom of the ladder.

And with success comes a much more frictionless existence. You're not getting angry at the boss. You ever heard Dana Carvey talk about this? No. No Conan podcast about like the billionaire

“comedian that's still trying to find things to be upset. You have to see it cry laughing. It's so funny.”

It's like, yeah, there's another fucking thing that he just like tries to manufacture outrage about tables and about forks. It's private air travel. Yeah, yeah, I get it. But I wonder if that's the same cartoonist generally have a chip on their shoulder, right? Some of them, yeah, there's some strange folks in that medium. Your friends with Kimmel? Yeah, in part because he's been really supportive of our nonprofits and he's hosted some events and then just a very normal

and he's a cartoonist. But yeah, yeah, that's his big hobby. He's right there behind you in a statue. Yeah, he's on the best for your work. We figured this out. He did a comic when he was a kid that they feature on the show and sort of fleshed out with everybody in costumes and stuff. All these ridiculous characters. And I asked him if we could have a copy of it for this international library of young authors. So we feature like books written by well known people

when they were under 18 amidst all of our books by young authors. And he gave us a copy of it.

“And it's so ludicrous, but you gotta keep these things. And that's why we publish so many”

young authors because their minds are untethered. There's no structure of characters. We'll pop up and disappear and narratives. No rules. No rules. And there's still really fun to read. You got to remember how unhinged narratives can and maybe should be because all of the rules and constraints and everything. It's applying sort of an accountants brain to what should be in an archic process. But anyway, but yeah, he was a good cartoon. He was going to campaign to get a yellow limousine

put in here. Did you write a book when you're a kid? In junior high, they put out one little zine at the end of the year. And it was all short stories from kids mine was in there. I fucking thought I had one in no bellpees. Well, that's why we publish kids. We have kids that are like 14 and they've been published every year since they were six. And they stand 12 feet tall. They're not like so grateful. They really feel like it's the right thing to have

happened. I worked hard on it. Of course, I worked publish. Well, in the true sense, if you succeed at getting the thing in your head out, whether that's in a movie or a clay or a drawing, there is a intrinsic pride that can't be matched by any other external validation. Right.

“And yeah, you should feel like your shit doesn't stink. To some degree, if you execute it”

exactly what was in your brain, that's the moment to be happy. Well, and also I'm going to do a

do have this perfectionism, whether like a shit, it's not ready yet. But we're like, it's really

“good. It's ready to let go of it. We're going to put out this book being humble enough to know”

that somebody else is opinion that it's ready or it's okay or it's good enough. So it's like, it's okay. We're going to publish this and we're going to put it in a nice paperback book. It'll be read for decades. It relieves that so many different things of a reluctant or hesitant kid or an English language learner. It does not have to be 100% perfect. We're going to work on it. You're out, after a draft. We're going to honor it and put it in this platform that other

people will see it. And then we're going to do some else. It's not just the one chance to not

one bite out of the apple. You can keep creating and again, I always say it's all practice

till you're 30, especially in writing. Reluctant writer, they're always think that they're going to be judged in a biblical sense on their first draft, like you're either unworthy and cast down or your Jesus. And it's like, no, you're having way one of like 10 drafts you're going to do. We'll get there either way. Do you not like talking about your life? Because generally in the show, we go through your life. That's to your work. No, I've always preferred talking about

anything but my life. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Even though you've written about it, did it 26 years ago. Do you like that? No, it was just like, you know, you find this with a lot of memoirs or somebody that wrote it. That was like, that was why I wrote it so that it's like, it's gone. You tell it. That's truthful. I mean, this again, what we teach for kids that have like chaotic lives in any way or every kid feels like the world around them is not under their

control necessarily. They're not controlling every part of their experience, but on the page, it's all yours. And you can write this linear narrative that makes sense and no one can mess with it. And so once they write these stories out of many memoirs or just a diary entry, there's like a calm that comes over the kids. And especially if they've done it every year, those are the sort of most self-possessed, self-knowing kids you'll ever find are the ones that have been asked

every year. Write your story. Who are you this year? And I always say that should be the first

thing of every school year the first two days is write your story on day one. And then the other kids get to read each other's stories day two. Teacher knows all the students far better and the kids are like, alright, now everyone knows who I am, my truth. And it's really different on the

“page than if you have to verbalize it to a bunch of kids you don't know in front of the class.”

You wouldn't ask them to do that. Yeah, but just pass them around and they get to know each other so intimately and there's just like a confessional safety on the page. It isn't there in any other place. I was trained as a journalist and we've had oral history series voice of witness for years and it's quite clear that there's seven and a half billion more interesting people than me out there. So it just feels like non-sensical to talk about my stupid boring life, you know,

it doesn't make any sense. There is no stupid boring life. I mean, I like that part. I would never

bore people with it because I did pass two people on the way here. Like on Franklin I think was like a guy shooting a film with his iPhone and there was a woman in a grocery cart and they were carreening down the street and he's filming and she's bouncing up and down and I really I was so desperate to stop. Yeah. There's a journalist you get an excuse to ask questions of people. Yeah, what's going on here? What are you all up to? Yeah. And so it always pains me when I

don't have the time or the window to do that because we've always had like a press pass and a reason

“to do it. Did you have though favorite authors that you are not really interested in?”

I've never read a biography of a writer. I'm not interested in any writer's private lives and I also really want to preserve the sanctity of the illusion. And then again, biographers of writers, unless they're authorized and the writers talking to them directly, most writer biographies are horribly mistaken. They make connections that don't exist. Well, it goes through their filter, their filter. Yeah. So one of my favorite writers was another

Chicago guy, Saul Bello. You guys read Saul Bello? Can't get anyone to read Saul Bello anymore. Anyway, one of the Nobel Prize he was the man for a long time, but nobody's reading him right now, but I do recommend him. Start with Herzog, which is a fantastic book, and there's never been a better sentence writer in the English language in my opinion. But there was a big biography of him, I think, in the 90s. And the biography just spent the entire time just green with envy about

why he's not Saul Bello. Oh, the entire book was about, I went to Harvard. He only went to Unir University of Chicago. Why does he have a Nobel and I don't? And this whole thing, everything is filtered through this twisted lens that he's looking through. And so I know enough

they're left handed or lactose intolerant or whatever, I'm like it diminishes the fun and know. And I'm like, I know plenty by reading their body of work. And I don't need to know anything

“more. And I think it's sort of like peeking behind any curtain or knowing how magic trick is done.”

Why, you know, why? I have an answer to that. But I will say I can relate to you in that. I loved Buchowski. That was my gateway and even liking writing. Then after he died someone put together some biography of him and it was all about how he was a communist. And I was like, what the hell? I know. He's the most anti-political person that I've ever lived. My course, but I mean,

is the writer was a communist. Yeah. And they always try to get people into that.

There went try. Well, you're bad, but I love biography. He's one of my very books of all time is Titan of John D. Rockefeller biography. It's just a stounding. I'll read Church Hill biography. I'm around. I mean, there's a lot of people that I'm interested in in that way, but not artists of any kind. The reason I like it is that all of these things, even our hard sciences, there are very few binaries. It's like at best someone got at 60% right. We'll have another expert on from another

university. They pitched the other side of it. And it's very compelling. And you're like, the world is at best, you're like 60% certain. And that is why it is entirely relevant to know what someone carries into it. Because you is someone trying to discern reality. It's like, you need these other plot points so that you can give it its right way. So, well, this person was abandoned by their family and group with bikers. Of course, there's, you know, like, I need to keep that in mind

when I'm reading their research or when I'm just hearing their point of view, it feels very relevant. If it comes from them, yeah, I would put that very important distinction. Yeah, posthumously telling us how someone was, I would. Yeah. If they're telling you themselves,

I always think you don't know anything about anyone until they tell you. Any assumptions that you

make otherwise are going to be false or misguided. But if they say, you know what, I was always curious about the human mind because I suffered from epileptic seizures as a kid or my mom did or whatever, then that makes perfect sense. There's so many people like that that are into it or they become law enforcement. Teddy Roosevelt, right? He had terrible asthma. He couldn't play with other kids. And he has his period where he goes to a ranch and he blends out. He's actually strong and

viral and it changes his whole life. Or the people that are sickly kids and they'd make plays at home because they're in bed for so long. Yeah, yeah, come into theater because they have to entertain themselves. There's so many of those apoleo generation all ended up really interesting because of that they all had that time in bed and alone. Or, yeah, these people with a gorephobia that

were writing and looking at their window, this is pretty fucking relevant. Emily, yeah, yeah, yeah.

“Suffice to say, I must note, you went to school with Vince Font. Were you on the same grade?”

We were same grade from fifth grade through high school. No way. So you like truly saw the young. He was exactly the same guy. He was. He was hilarious from day one. We had a uniquely cohesive class and there were two people that were really key to that. Everybody was great. But Rob Pellink was also in our class. He's the GM of the Lakers. Oh, okay. And so Rob was like the best basketball player in Illinois at the time. We all went to his games and then Vince posted the

talent show every year and with my buddy Paul Bayes, he lives down the street still and then they were in the place. Vince was, but he was also hanging out with the football people. But Vince was cool with everybody and especially the artists and the theater people. So he united a lot of different people by saying it's cool to be with the football guys. But if you're theater, that's very cool too. So we had a weird class in that everybody kind of cheered everybody on for whatever they were good at.

That's very unique. It's unique. But you got to teach it. It's teachable. You need leaders the captain of the football team. The quarterback was in all my AP English classes. Oh, right.

“To me, super smart guy interested in Faulkner and heller. But I think that you could say,”

like listen, a rising tide lifts all boats. If they're all the basketball people support the athletes and the athletes travel to see the football team when they're in quarter finals or something which all happened in our school. We were so cohesive. Everybody was okay with everybody. Dave, that's impossible, especially in the 80s and 90s. I'm blown away. But we also had John Hughes making movies about our area. We knew that we were in a

charmed period. In Vince worships and where you also? Yeah, I was into all those movies. There's so special. They were in our town. An ordinary people was filmed in our town when we were kids. And there was a lot going on. And then the bears practice in Lake Forest. So we could go see the bears practice and the refrigerator pair. And we were about to shuffle all the four. That was 80 45. So yeah, it was a really great time. But I give a lot of credit to those guys

for being really nice to everybody. Everybody had to be in the talent show in our school. Oh, really? It was required? No. But now the cool kids did it. I mean, even if you're just dancing to a beach boy song, which I didn't know of his friends, is pathetic some of these acts.

Did they all do anything? Yeah. Yeah. Our group did that. And we would do money.

“Did you go on your toes like P. We had in those platform booths?”

I would have thrown tomatoes if you had them. What's weird is it didn't seem risky? Because everybody was doing it. So there wasn't like you're facing this wall of unbelievers. Everyone's out on talent show. Of course you do talent show. So were you stereotypically kind of an art get or no? No. I was on the soccer team four years and tried out for tennis. Got cut twice. But we were all sporty. Our group was a little

different than the football guys. We tended to be a little harder. My friends did the filmmaking, telecom classes. I was in our classes and good at English classes and stuff. And we did the literary magazine, columnist for the newspaper, wrote the yearbook. That kind of stuff. But we played football every weekend down at the end of my street. There was a park and we played all year round. Like in the winter we played three on four all-time quarterback, you know,

how that is in tackle. We were really into that. So what called you to Berkeley? I mean, it seems obvious. It's a very literary. Oh, no. I mean, I was where my sister was in law school. So she had to further year. So we went to Berkeley. That was the nearest support system. It wasn't a choice. For the people who didn't read a heartbreak, you know, a work of staggering genius. You

“are taking care of your little brother from 21 years old on. I think is a pretty unique scenario.”

Yeah. And now looking back, I would have been in the Bay Area. I'd never been there before I moved

there. I don't think. So I really spent my life in Chicago and then we would go out east. Boston to the McSweeney clan. And so one of the first times I'd ever been out playing was going in California. To live, we were family of six with a Ford Pinto, arriving around vacations. We're Kentucky, you know, to see a cave or the lesser case. But you know, I'm doing a Bay Area what more less 34 years now. It really is to me to colors the palette of a place is really important,

the topography and the landscape. It's incredibly dramatic city. It's so dramatic. And then you really only have to go. If you go over the bridge and into the headlands, it's exactly three and a half miles from basically the center of the city. And you are in wild open land all the way up to Oregon, basically. There's nothing. There's red woods directly on the other side of the Golden Gate near

Woods. The oldest trees. There are. I never thought I would stay in one place for so long. It's not

really my way of thinking about moving through the world, but I haven't been to a prettier urban environment. How quickly do you find your footing as a writer there? You put out Mike pretty quickly, yeah. Day one. No one will tell you no in the Bay Area. That's the great thing and the burden of every stupid idea happened. It's interesting. No friction. You already knew you were going to write when you got there? No. Oh. I had no clue. I got there and the first summer I spent painting

furniture. I thought maybe I would decorate furniture for a living. Sure. And then I worked as a temp until I was 28 more or less. You know, if you needed a graphic design, if you wanted somebody to make a lawn sign, I would do your graphic design for that. We had clients all over the city. And then we put out Mike at the same time, but I didn't make a living as a writer till I was 30. So not Berkeley the school. No, but very very. Okay. I got a little confused. I went to Berkeley

the school. Yeah. All that. Let me pretend I did. Let's say we blew that line a little bit. Yeah, but we put out that magazine as five of us. Nobody ever made a living. But we had a blast doing it. At that moment, had it changed at all? I mean, I know you have a degree in journalism,

“but was it still art first at that moment? No. When do you remember changing like no,”

it's going to be writing? It was probably college because I worked at the daily paper every day for four years. And I did graphic design and illustration for that paper, but I did a little bit art school and realized like the immediacy and the impact you can have in journalism. You know, front page paper. There's a strike. There's a protest. There's a war going on. Whatever compared to, I'm going to sit alone in a studio and maybe sell a painting 10 years from now. Maybe my very

wealth of people that'll put it in their bathroom. You know, so that to me, I was like, "Ah, that doesn't sound like what I want to do." Journalism is instant gratification. And just impact every day. You write it. You're finished at sometimes 9 p.m. Goes through copy editing, called The Slot. They write the headline. You're there pasting it up because I was a pasted up guy. And you send it off at midnight and then two hours later or three hours later, it's like on the street.

That rush you could never. Yeah, so I'm guys taking a dump reading it.

With hours. That's the goal. Yeah. If you're the high-warker journalism.

ran." That's the real Nobel. And it goes away. Pre-inner net, if it wasn't good,

“it's completely forgotten. And then you're on to the next thing. But never so often there'd be”

something that would really make an impact. And then I edited different sections and magazine into the paper and you get to bring up other voices and maybe discover somebody in your little way and help them get a platform, I guess. So that was what I'm still doing now. It's much more

fun publishing other people than publishing your own stuff, always. Because there's no complication.

It's like producing a movie where you're not on the masted or on the marquee. So it's not your fault. If it's not good. But you can take all the credit if it's sort of, you know, be in the wings and say, it's totally egoless. And it's such a pure celebration. We had a writer for the believer magazine when they award a couple nights ago for the National Magazine Awards. We've only met this writer a few times, but there's way more pure joy than any other thing that we can do as a company,

because we're so tiny, it's like really six full-time people. But every so often we have a chance to kind of elevate a voice in our little way. How old were you when you started writing for

“Salon? Probably 24. Is that your first kind of pay? Yeah. And it was at enough to live on?”

Support you. I was a cartoonist. So I had salon graphic design work and then I had a weekly cartoon in the SF weekly. Those three things combined. I was making decent money. We had this little design company where I looked at these invoices that we used to send looking through all this old stuff lately. A main client was the SF Chronicle. We do like they're in paper ads. I agree the

Chronicle, but you're on the inside and the outside. A little bit. Always. I mean, in journalism,

it's that way. And I would take us half an hour to make. But we had to just make up some number that sounded like, so it'd be like $577. And 32 cents. No, all these numbers that I saw us make up are so ludicrous. No math or consistency. But we were undercutting the real business and established place with charge 10 times that much. So we made really good money by being nimble and quick and cheap. And so I always tell anybody like out of school, if you undercut the bigger companies in any business,

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“incorporated in all state affiliate. In 98 you start McSweeney's. Right. What prompts that?”

I was working at Esquire, big corporate magazine for the first time. Might got us all jobs in real industries for the first time. So we were offered different jobs like buddy of mine, one of the other my editors. We were offered a gig writing for Letterman like the two of us. No kidding. As a team, I guess, and it was Rodney Rothman, who was the head writer at the time, and he was younger than us. We were like 27. I think he was 24. Wow. And the producer is Kate Adler

and we all met and it was like the most exciting thing that you could ever imagine. This is when he just went to CBS it would have been. Yeah. Yeah. We worship Letterman as growing up on Chris Elliott and had everything taped and we watch everything over and over. But the hours and the uncertainty, you'd get like a 12-week contract. I think at the time. And then you had to renew. I was not in a place where I had that kind of uncertainty. I had to depend and then

the hours. You can't be apparent and right as a young person. Yeah. Trying to prove yourself. But then

I took this magazine job and I really learned quickly that I was not meant to. I had never had a nine to five

anything. I never had to wear clothes of any kind to any job. Uh-huh. In the Bay Area there was all shorts every day. Nobody cared. Sort of have to wear pants and a button down shirt. And then try to get things published and they say no. I was like these are all brand new ideas to me.

So suddenly it was 90% no. That's not their fault. Like there's only so many pages in a magazine.

“So we started Mixween. It was all stuff that was rejected from other corporate magazine. Uh-huh.”

And it was like the land of misfit writings. And so we did that. Published it out in my apartment in Brooklyn. And just a couple of us. Well, so you would move to New York at that. Yeah. How did you do in New York? Manhattan was not my thing. But once I moved to Brooklyn, it was much calmer. Really Oaklandy and great near prospect park, which is a beautiful park. I just have to be close to some kind of open space. So suddenly, you know, we had a ball putting out Mixween. It was just everything you

wanted to be. You go from this corporate constraint, everything to just being back in your kitchen. With a couple of friends doing anything you want to do, printing the book in Iceland, which we did. I go to go to Rikovic for each press track and spend a week there going back and forth to the printer among all the blonde pressmen and their blue jumpsuits. The whole thing was so surreal.

But so much fun. Was it always like this? Was it always like in a fun? Okay. The first three

“were just white paperbacks like black and white. They were really nicely made, but just black and white.”

The most part. And then the fourth one was a box with a bunch of books that's in it. And we made that. It was the first time. There's no boxes in Iceland. They have no pulp. They can't make anything like that. There's no trees. So were they such a big thing as a big meeting? How are we going to make a box? You know? And all these nice land, guys, trying to figure out how to make a box for this. This is so much fun. But that started this thing where I thought, "Well, why don't we reinvent

the form every time?" Because if you're going to pay us and subscribe to us, maybe we'll surprise you each time with what it looks like. So we've done a lunch box for a few years. Is that a lunch box? Yeah. That was what we got, yeah. There's definitely the archetype of the lone wolf writer. But you clearly like the communal aspect. Yeah. I can only think of a handful of actual lone wolfs. In the visual arts, too. It's a trope that isn't born out

“that often in real life. Becauseki is one of those guys. Right. And you have then go.”

John, whoever. Hey, probably. There's a handful. But the people that I've known or met, I don't know a lone wolf writer. I can't think of one. I would feel so comforted. Yeah. If I had surrounded myself with other people who were just like banging their head against the wall in the getting that rejection as the fucking postcard. Well, or, you know, I tell this to students and MFA programs all the time. I was like, there was two of us in a kitchen that

started mixed meanings for $2,500. That was the print bill for the first one. You sell those

2,000 copies. You have enough money to print the next one. And print 5,000 copies. You sell those. You can certainly print 7,500, which was our trajectory. It's such simple math. I can't add anything to give. I cannot balance checkbook. But I could do that simple math. And so we just published everybody we wanted to publish. So that built up this little community of people and you start something, the magnet, you know, you just everybody's drawn to it. Whether it's upright citizens

brigade or the ground, you know, it's the same kind of thing. Everyone's like looking for somebody to start that thing. And then they're like, thank God, because not everyone is necessarily a starter, I guess. Or ambitious or organized. A little bit. Many people have filled up a gap. Like Melissa McCarthy. This would crack people up, but like Melissa McCarthy and Ben and I, we had this comedy troop. Nobody came. We did show. It was like Melissa was the manager. She told

us where to be. She negotiated the theater, rentals. She delegated your bringing beer. Someone has to get the space and do that. Wow. It was organized and on it. And we were like, okay, I'll bring beer. Last Melissa, what was that? Well, if she has you there to help do those things, then yeah, you only need two or three people. I saw a student of mine that was at a crossroads. He's 35 now, but I knew him when he was in high school. And I was like, just

find a couple people because alone, it's just sad and lonely or whatever. But a couple people, you're like a little cadre of people and you're going to buck them up if they're down. They can buck you up if you're down. And together, you can get, you know, a lot more done than a given day. It's going to be a lot more fun. So the idea in any art form of being that lonely person and the cabin throwing crumpled up sheets of paper in the corner is a canard. I don't know it very often

to be true and also it's so unnecessary. Sometimes you need isolation. I can only write when I'm alone, but then I can send a draft to all the different writers, mostly in the Bay Area, like, hey, what do you think? Is this anything? And then you're in community with people that are like, yeah, keep going. And then you feel, okay, you have jet fuel. But the idea of like, I'm not going to show it to you for seven years and then you create some mangled Frankenstein novel that nobody wants. It's such a

where it's fun or is there some other way to do it? It's like worth the moment that you can spend. I worked in my garage for years. It was exactly like the six or one window in the corner. But it was the only space that was free and big enough to have all the stuff I needed and but it was really kind of grim. And I was like, boy, I really don't want to be inside in a dark garage eight hours a day. There's something wrong here. So I just had to like think about it,

finally, after 30 years or however long it was. And I was like, well, what if I had a friend

funny to say this, but she's a ship captain? Yeah, I don't have any ship captain. Yeah, that is she sails in the bay. I was like, would it possible to get like a little sailboat that I could work in and I find a slip in one of the marinas in the bay. And she that guided me through this process and helped me buy this boat. So now I've been working in this boat, which is, you know,

“not so much bigger than this table, really. Was it more than Solcellito?”

It's more like right under the Golden Gate Bridge on the north side. It's an old air force base marina, but it's a rickety, ridiculous marina, and I'm outside more. You know, I'm like, there's so much more going on. And you get mad thinking like, why didn't I do this 20 years ago? And I think sometimes just to take that moment, whenever you're at a transition moment, and I don't know about you, but a lot of my friends at R.H. are like in-between jobs right now.

So there's like a thing that's going on in the business world, in particular, where they get priced out, maybe they're too expensive for their company. They get laid off, and they're looking for the next thing. But we're all talking about it. Maybe it's an opportunity to like, think hard about exactly what you'd like to do, how do you want to spend your days and hours? And sometimes if you can get a little bit like, I definitely don't want to do that again.

I don't want to commute an hour. And so you can get a little bit closer to something that

can never be ideal, but you can get closer to an intentional way to live a life.

Well, I definitely think for me that comes with the age and that the motivation at the beginning is like, your piece of shit, your failure if you don't do this. You know, it's just hate little to self-worldly, right? So floating, you need a little bit. And then at some point, you know, well, what's the point of all this if I don't learn to enjoy the process? This is all a way. So I'm going to die with like a bunch of posters hanging, and that's the proof of this thing.

You realize, this isn't worth doing if I don't enjoy the process.

“Right. I can't be about the reward. Well, are you enjoying the podcast?”

Oh, absolutely. This is the greatest stuff that you've ever had. Yeah, you've been, I guess, periods, right, where you've taken breaks. For sure, every three years, I'm like, what if I, instead? Yeah. There's so many other things to do. Nature photographer, would that be cool, right, so that they're with looking for the snow leopard all day? Like, I really honestly see that as a thing, but then you also have to pay the mortgage

and stuff. I do have a question about the heartbreaking work of staggering genius. You had so much going on at that time. Was it hard for you to carve out the time and the commitment to sit down and finish that book? I had to quit the job at S. Quire to do it, because I couldn't do both. Yeah. I would need eight hours a day of writing time to get anything done. I just have to get my

head clear. That's like the first half and then the self-loading kicks in, the power five.

Like, what do you do? Like, you've been in front of a little wind in your sale. You're like, oh, I got to get as much out of the camp. The afternoon, you're more urgent about it and maybe you could hit a word count that makes you feel like you've done something that day. What a life. It's still there, right? I've just trying to make it a little bit more fun. And then there are books that just come out a lot easier than others. Now, the eyes and the impossible was a couple

years ago. That was like the most fun I'd ever had. And I was like, how do I stay in that zone where it's fun? A lot of it is to do with voice and it has to do with writing about something that you love. And so, a contraposter was like, I love talking about and thinking about the art world and these characters. And so I was like, okay, that book too was just pretty much joy all the way through. But as a journalist, that's not as fun. Because you feel the duty to like cover

“Trump or to cover a disaster, go to Ukraine or whatever, and then you have to write it out and”

you have to get every last word right and check every fact over and over. It's a slog that you're happy to have done at the end. And you feel like maybe you enlighten the person or awaken somebody, but it's really no fun at any point of the process. How did you take on the success of that book? That was new to you, right? I mean, you are a finalist for the Pulitzer for that book. The main thing, I mean, I'm looking at McSweeney's stuff because McSweeney's was brand new too.

And so we were able to kind of take that new readership and sort of channeled a lot of them. And so we went on the road because I was finding all of these showruns. We went on the road with they might be giants. And it was like me, writers like Arthur Bradford's 80 Smith's some others.

stuff and then there'd be the band. And then Arthur would smash a guitar on the stage. He did this whole act.

“It was like to try to in live and what at that point was the most boring thing you'd ever”

could imagine, which was going to a book store to see a reading. You know, people would just get up and read for an hour. And we were trying to sort of shake that up. And I saw Arthur who's like a filmmaker the other night and we were just reminiscing, he would buy an acoustic guitar in every town. We would tour in. And then he told the story while he played and then he would during a crescendo of the story. He'd raise it up above his head. And then smash it as like the punctuation mark of

the story. And then a stage hand would come out and hand him a new guitar. And then he'd finish story with his acoustic guitar. So he had to buy two guitars in every town we went to. But it was ridiculously fun time. But to think that at this point, like I don't love getting on stage, I don't love having to follow. They might be giants or anything like that. It's like I can't believe that we did that because these days, I'm much more content to be in a smaller setting,

a bookstore setting, not a big hall. But at the time we thought, well, maybe we could make books slightly less to date and slightly less predictable. Have you ever been to a sedaris reading? Yeah, sure. That was right then. Make it had come out. 1500 people would come and he would just read his work. Sarah Val was in our little code of read and she was really tight with sedaris and sedaris did benefits for our nonprofit in New York, 186 New York. And so he was always a hero to us

and a mentor. What he's done though with like reading literature out loud is insane. I currently can't stop listening to the live recordings. Barrel Fever was how I met my editor, Jeff Klosky. He was the

editor of sedaris's first collection. He made humor literary. Before that, there was always the

picture of like that. The humorous mugging. Yeah. But then he put it in sort of a literary format,

“Jeff Klosky. This editor did and I thought, okay, whoever did that, I want to meet. And so that's why”

he became my editor. It's a fun evolution too to watch because like make it, you can tell's written without any real notion that it'll be read out loud. And then now his writing is done like a standup by doing a draft reading it out loud, rewriting his workflow is so fascinating. Well, earlier, I mean, it started with a Santa Landire. Yeah, that was a this American life like first, I think. And that was performed from minute one. And that was just like a thunder clap. Everybody was like,

what the hell? Yeah. You could do that. Wow. Because there used to be something in the New Yorker called casuals. They were like long format, literary, humor, kind of like that. And then it's sort of went away. And then Cedera started that up again where you could have like a 20 page essay slash comedy show. Yeah. And then people would go out to it. But you know, what's funny is that he's still, there's him, there's Sarah Val, there was David Rackoff for a while. There's not that many people

“that still do it. And it just shows how hard it is to do. And he's gotten better and better.”

There's points where it's like, I'll listen as the most recent ones like maybe clips on tape and I'm like, I don't know man, you put him up against Chappelle Laugh for Laugh and a fucking one-and-a-half hour show. It's the precision of the writing. Yeah. Everything is about extra syllables. And Chappelle's really good at that. Sign Fels talked about it. But one extra word. And there you don't get to laugh. You've got to be there at the end of the sentence before they're ready. And Cedera's

is unique in that he never puts on extra verbiage or whatever to sort of make. It's lean. It's really

getting so full. And then he's funnier in person even than on the page. Yeah. It's just his voice and his attitude. And then if you go to one of those events, he's signing books for six hours after. He seems every single person. And he's writing wild shit in there. He's like the amount of creative output just to write in their fucking. He's connecting with each person. Well, to me, that's my favorite part too. And I would much rather just be signing books and chatting with people because

the high-wire act of being up there with a microphone is a lot different. So to me, I'm always looking forward to the sitting and signing. But I do feel for the people that are waiting. So there is waiting hours. But they go in knowing it. And then you know it. But the times that you're there and there's like a union venue. And they're like, you got to get out of here. And then you're on the street. And then the cops come and get out of here. You can't be there. But that's happening to me. But to me,

that's the most fun part is just the reader to reader because in person, all people are normal. If you're just talking to an actual person with enough time, human to human eye to eye, this solves everything. This is our conclusion after a thousand plus episodes is like, we have guests. Send me regularly that I don't like, that I've had interactions with around town. I don't like this person. We got to have their great guests. And 100% of the time David, at the end of two hours,

I'm a fucking love this person. I'm like literally I challenge someone to sit for two hours with

wants to find common ground. Just chemically we want this. So I covered a lot of Trump rallies

as a journalist. And I would embed. I never presented myself right away as a journalist. So I would

just wait and line with everybody. Get to know people. I hope you take this as a compliment. You

“could blend in. I believe you should see my full, you know, because I've got the trucker had.”

I have my plan. These are clothes I own. It's not a cost. It's not so much a costume. And you know, I sort of believe hate the sin, love the sinner. The folks that you meet, the people that you've seen on TV are usually the fringiest fringe. Oh yeah. But in the middle, I mean, I do think it's so misguided and he's by far the worst president that has ever been or could be conceived on so many levels. And certainly the most corrupt that we're seeing recently. But the people voted for him,

I would find common ground with everybody. And they would have some reasonable explanations for supporting him for the most part out of every hundred people that would be one true. They'll not take sure of that person. But as a journalist, you really especially if you're listening. And not like hidden run journalists. But like I'm going to give you as long as you want to talk. I'm going to learn an explanation that I wouldn't have thought about. And sometimes they're voting

in very narrow. My 401k went up. Last time he was elected. I need that money. Yep. Okay. You know. You can't really argue with that. My parents waited 17 years to immigrate from the Philippines. I want everyone to wait the same amount of time. I live in a border zone two hundred thousand people have come over this month. That scares me. Well, I did cover the Al Paso rally. So that was made or work on one side of the street having a rally when he's running

for the Senate. About 4,000 people came to that one. Cross the street. 90 feet. 15,000 people to Trump. In El Paso a week after he said that El Paso was a dump in the dead end. Yeah, yeah. Whatever it doesn't matter. Yeah. 50, 60% of that crowd was Latino. They laugh at this idea. I interviewed so many people that like the border. People are going up and back and forth every day from El Paso. It's very porous. It's underground tunnels. There's all these different things.

But then you have that conservativeism of recent immigrants. Right? So there was a family where the mom came over from Mexico illegally. Got her green card. One daughter is a cop. And as a Trumpee and won't talk to the mother anymore because she broke the lot to come over. Wow. But she's an American because her mother. Yeah. And so now no one's talking to each other because she's iced out the mother that sister won't talk to this other sister because

and it's all because of one guy. Yeah. And so you got to back up and say it wasn't this way. For so long the border was much more porous. You'd work in the U.S. because wages are higher than you go back home because it's cheaper to live in Mexico. It was just back and forth for farm workers, for construction, for a lot of different things. And then suddenly it wasn't Trump that did this.

“But everything became much more heightened and sort of you have to pick aside and choose.”

And it's widely mismanaged. I don't have the solution in the podcast. But I will say that like if he dropped the solution. I know. Hey, why were you sitting on that screen? We're on the year 10 of this. Yeah. I do want to say this. I cannot remember. But I bet it

had to be Kimmel who told me to. But what is the what was the first book of yours I read?

Okay. And I talk about it on here all the time. I just love that book. It's just outstandingly beautiful. You know Valentino and I we went to Kimmel's taping the year to a go. Jimmy Kimmel and Molly of giving money to Valentino schools in South Sudan. He was a foundation. And so it was really weird. There was a guy doing crowdwork before. And he was like, "Where is everybody from?" I want to see who's from the furthest place away.

He happens to find Valentino sitting next to me. And he was like, "Where are you from?" South Sudan. You won. You got it. After the book came out, we went back to South Sudan and all the money from the book went to this foundation. And then he had the decision to make like what do you do with it. And he decided to build a high school in this town. He was so successful.

But he became the minister of education for his whole region. So basically new England size.

And now he's running his own schools in a town close to Mario by where he grew up.

“You read about him till he was probably 22, I guess. Was it Atlanta that they got sent to you?”

The heartbreaking part of this book if you haven't read it, I really encourage one of my very favorite books. But you know what these kids went through to cross the desert. I mean, there's literally lions picking guys off, which is just unimaginable. And they have this notion of getting to America. And then they go to Atlanta and just the violence that's happening in the motel that they're at. And this speed of life. Like when I met Valentino, we just just got into an accident. Like two days

after getting a driver's license, they had three months of aid from USAID or whatever group it was. Maybe it was the UNHCR. But then they're on their own. And it's like independent nonprofits and

to absorb refugees and people from the toughest post-conflict zones, they were absorbed and did quite well almost everywhere. And it was mostly the churches that did it. It was mostly the kids were brought up Catholic. The churches reached out. Whatever you need, come to us, you're part of our family. And then Atlanta was Mary Williams who started the lost boys foundation and gotten touch with me. But you had 4,000 mostly boys all on a company, 18 to 25, sent to Fargo, sent to Omaha, cheaper places to live.

San Jose never in the middle of a city. And suddenly after three months it's like, well you got to

pay that electrical bill. What's an electrical bill? Okay. Well, and you've got to get to school now.

“You have to have a job within three months. You have to know everything and took all of”

us 18 years of figure out. You have to know it. The next three months. Three months. Most of them if they were lucky enough to sort of have a family that takes care of them, Valentino had this couple, the mazes that are still in Atlanta, that became sort of surrogate parents and guiding them through all these questions. And you realize like whether it's the lost boys or whether it's first and their family to go to college in this country, you just need an advocate. He needs somebody to pick

up the phone and be like, okay, no, that's how what you do. Pick up this form. You got to fill this out. I'll help you do it. I'll file that for you. Or this website. Because otherwise it's just reading Sumerian and at the speed of light. And if you don't do it, you're on the street. Like all of those things at once, you realize like I've been to Kakumo, which was the refugee camp that they grew up in. And for the most part, there's not electricity or running water and a lot of these

camps. They were lucky to have a meal a day for years. These refugee camps are still there because they become cities unto themselves, right? And they're still called refugee camps even though they've been there at this point 34 years or something like that. But there's a simplicity sometimes or with a system you know. And our lives here in this country are so complex. We don't even realize how complex and needlessly complex they are and how irrational so many of our systems are.

Until you go to Sumerals, these cities in South Sudan now that there's been relative peace for some time are growing exponentially. Like Jew but the capital when we were first there maybe 20 years ago, they go as maybe 20,000 people. Like you could really get across it in an hour or two. And now

“I think it's two and a half million and it just goes out and there's entrepreneurship everywhere”

and things popping up in schools and if people have anywhere, whether it's this country to two and a half years ago or South Sudan just if there's relative peace for a little bit of time, everything can happen. People will flourish, they'll figure it out, they'll flock to these centers, they'll solve problems and it's the job of the international community to just invest. Not eight, invest in businesses there. So you have Ethiopia and AirTrain restaurants and businesses

and places from Uganda that are going to South Sudan to make money which is good, right? They employ people, they're selling them phone plans. This is the way that countries get out of a post-conflict situation. It's like actual living, not just aid but actual investment. New Valentinos doing a lot of that, too. Okay. Well, we've eaten up way too much time.

“I would have loved to talk about the circle a little bit in the every because I like hearing”

you talk about the post-apocalyptic cyber-age we're in. Find it. You're a friend to listen to talk about this. But at last, your newest book which is what we're here to talk about is Contraposto. That's the name of my bowtox place by the way. Is it really? Yeah. I didn't really turn before

the book. I've never seen it anywhere else. Yeah, it's the first time I had heard it.

It's a form right in painting where a portrait subject is holding two positions that are in tension. Yeah, it's like the Michelangelo's David would be the first or best known example, where the pose is off balance a bit. You're putting weight on one leg or your hips or one way your shoulders are another way as opposed to a stock still kind of rigid pose. So most poses, as we know, could be qualified as Contraposto. But it's something you learn

in art school and you ask of the model and I like the word always and I felt like it applied to the relationship between cricket and Olympias where there's sort of balanced imbalance between them. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. So the book starts with a little boy Robert and he ditches that name because he has a shitty not a step to have but mom's boyfriend is terrible. You're not going to let me draw any parallels.

I never had a step at that. He sounded very familiar to me but cricket gets this name because he

doesn't want to be called Rob because it's now associated with Robert who's upstairs right now.

bit? Yeah, his grandfather lives at home in the basement and then it's created kind of like a botanical garden almost in the middle of a Indiana basement in the middle of winter. It's frozen outside and white and probably below zero but down there it's humid and full of plants and green and in spiders he likes spiders. Yeah insects sorts this humid sort of fertile kind of womb like world almost that cricket spends most of his time down there with his grandfather who's

pretty old and not super mobile. He doesn't really leave the basement but he draws on the floor

“in front of him while listening to records in this father reading above him and I think that”

those early sections about the grandfather I just wanted to establish that when you're a kid

and you can draw or if you can write or whatever you're doing there's this like incredible piece that

comes over a kid that he's got all this chaos going on upstairs but on that page he controls everything can create any universe or world he wants to he has validation from this grandfather that loves everything he does which is what grandfather's are supposed to do or grandparents. Well he treats them seriously which is like this huge gift that someone can give you when you're a kid. For sure it's different as mothers working full time and is under all kinds of stresses but down there

you know I think every kid needs that sort of place with your validated I guess your competent your good at something everybody's got to find something that a kid is good at and that's the

“parents task it's like go to karate teach you I mean anything you can do but until you find that”

it's tricky once that kid finds that he's really good at something then that competence carries over into everything else like all right good I have a place I can do this one thing well but then you know that leads into him taking more and more sort of our classes around and leaving home grandfather doesn't last too long but has taught him I guess the skills well also this thing he's good at becomes a bridge also to friendship and to potential romantic interest right he's encouraged it's

kind of discovered that he's a good drawer and he's encouraged to graffiti yeah everybody knows that kid right that can draw the angel guy and the Led Zeppelin cover right so can you do that for me too or Eddie from Iron Man there's a couple kids in every high school that could draw Eddie same in prisons right if you if you can draw those guys make money doing it like I've met a lot of those guys but yeah for cricket it's really just like he's quite a kid but he meets Olympia who recognizes

that he does a talent and then of course he uses it to have him deface a public place structure using some form of calligraphy via a giant Sharpie and so I wanted to take it away from being like too cute they say horrible things on this place structure but in an ornate kind of almost old English sort of font but he's madly in love instantly with this girl who's maybe a year older you see he's very worldly and provocative and dangerous right yeah not just spoil it but

“the rest of the book is about them together over the years but I think that she's so captivating”

and at every stage she's captivating in different ways she morphs and shapeships a bit but she's

always infinitely more sophisticated than he is and more verbal and more worldly and she knows how to

sort of navigate through the art world whereas like he generally doesn't have a clue and doesn't seek to we get into your kind of or I'm assuming your take on our very exploring a lot this kind of tension between its pretentious its exclusionary its inclusionary like it has all these dynamics what were you able to get off your chest about art well it was fun because I don't think I would ever write a book about the book world because I'm in it and that's to me maybe just too close and

also for me being adjacent to it like I paint make prints and I draw and sell them and stuff and I have a little gallery that sells them for the last 15 or so years so I have like a little bit of a foray into that world used to write about art and everything but there is something really unique in all art forms like music you go to concert and well used to be $20 and you see your favorite band has $15 for the CD and you could take it home and own in look through the booklet and

it's very democratic there art world and the visual art world in the last hundred years or so incredibly exclusive and very hard to like just experience as a regular person you can't really own much you could tear out a piece of paper from a magazine with your favorite painting that's as close as you can get. Well even like the Bank Sea rises so fascinating right because it starts as like incredibly democratized for all to see on the side of a building and then I have been

to billionaire's house who has an enormous Bank Sea and is always there right? Yeah in his hallway

somebody tore it off a building maybe. No what Bank Sea does artwork for sale? I didn't know that.

when he was coming in San Francisco and he said like to do something on the roof and one of our staffers led a men at midnight and led him up to the roof. Did he have to sign anything? That's a good

“question. Or do you have to be blindfolded? I mean that's funny I always want to ask. They've just”

discovered who he is right. He's been following. Yeah it's like an English dude. Yeah it's always been

an English guy if we didn't know. It was Chris Yang who was on our staff he led him up and then he did this really cool mural sort of I don't know what you call a picture on the side of what he would consider the roof or this the wall on our roof but we have a flat roof and he did it there and we were so happy we wake up we see it people were stopping on the street for a week in the middle of traffic it was a big deal everybody knew that he'd done a it's before social media though so it was like

just word a mouth and then one day we wake up and it's gone. And we realized it was on the building next to us. So our roof is flat but then there's an apartment building next to us. They painted over and we didn't even think that. Tell this guy because we anyway so he's painted over within a week and we could have I don't even seen a picture of it in years. It was tragic. There's a few other pieces in San Francisco one in the port that they're trying to figure out what to do with an

authenticate because he won't authenticate either. I really like his work. I always have I like

the way it goes about things on his own. He's so fucking serious. A tertiary people making money off of his stuff but I was always looking for and I think trying to explore in this novel like how do you bring it to that democratized kind of level that music and even books books are so simply you'd be biased 25 bucks you take at home that that's the experience. Anybody can access it. There's

“no exclusive part of the book world but art is mostly exclusive meaning like if you want to own”

anything and that person is really making a living doing it it's incredibly expensive. That's where I've called bullshit on art a little bit which is like why is the print to you not valuable. I love the prints. Yeah I'm just saying most people yeah like if what you love is this image you can't tell the difference. What are we talking about? Why is that not desirable for the lithograph versus the real thing? They make comparatively so few so if an artist is doing 40 paintings a

year they only make a couple prints or lithos graphs of those works and then maybe a book at the end of a show. I did different series of prints that looked exactly like the original so no one could tell and I would sell them in a portfolio. You see him anywhere in people's houses and you cannot tell the difference and I did that on purpose. Did you mark the original? No I just signed it you know so it has the original signature in the corner so if you were going to really look closely I like the idea

of someone has the original no one knows. That takes place in the world all the time but you think as an original in certain museums is not the original. There's often a fake there because of

wanting to preserve it or rest it or the danger of theft or whatever so you don't always know but

I do think that this sanctification of these certain little objects and Mona Lisa must be so much better than the painting next to it and this sort of hierarchy all of these things are very unique I think to the art world whereas there's so much phenomenal work being done every day by people that we live among in LA is obviously it's such a fantastic art city but there's something intrinsic to it that's newty and that really attracts kind of a snobby sort of person unfortunately and at all

twists and turns we've got to try to favor the artists, the curators, the gallerists, the museum directors everybody that makes it accessible makes it more fun. Explain things. Why is that on the wall? Why is that Barnett Newman on the wall? Why am I supposed to like that? If you can't explain that

“then you shouldn't be doing the job you know you should explain why a white square is on the wall”

because worth six million dollars or whatever and I think that for so long it's getting a little bit better now it's pretty pluralistic atmosphere now like if you go to lack my you'll see every kind of work imaginable which is how it should be but for a while 60's 70's 80's it had gotten so exclusive and so narrow where it was all about abstract work and abstract expressions and little conceptual art but anything outside of that representational figures anything that was like

really frowned upon. Pass a yeah and it was like an art form uniquely susceptible to that and you would never find that in music where it's like well now from now on John Cage has brought us to this place where only silence stones are over yeah you know we don't like the world everything else is invalid but we had reached that place with visual art for a while it was a tough place and very unaccepting and very close-minded. Yeah my grievances like it's the apex of arbitrary.

I just moved into a house and I was like okay I need art for my house now and this has been crazy

cheap painting and then I got it and I love it I do love it but when I was staring at it I'm like why

was it that much so money do you like the painting I do I love the painting and I look at it and I look at this print that's much cheaper that's framed next to it and I'm like yeah none of this makes any sense. Yeah I was talking to your friend she just had a show all of her prices are super random she has a formula it's actually based on like area you know you're charging the San Francisco Chronicle for your it's exactly just came to mind. So is it like by square footage that you're doing is like

why would this be $412 and that one's $600 and if it's by actual area isn't that same weird like

“you're charging by the foot but I think that that goes again toward how they've created a sort of”

a self-seriousness about it and a little bit like I could explain it to you but you wouldn't understand that kind of thing but it reeks of a leadism the whole you don't agree you don't find that in any other medium even classical music like the first thing they want to do is explain it to you you know like okay here's why this movement is about this not like well I don't know you have a degree in music theory and then maybe I could talk to you. Yeah it's like if you don't get it that's on you

yeah kind of I have to be like no I get it. We should add to the world is filled with more criminals than any other there are more paint salesmen who have gone to prison than any other art medium. This is riddled with crooks or selling paintings they don't have yeah they're selling fake paintings but

there you go and why is that why does it attract so many charlatans and it's always been fascinating

“me because you really just don't see as much of it in any other form but the art forging stories”

I do love those like watching those and also you'll see the gallerist in between who's sort of winking and nodding like does she or doesn't she know that she's selling a fake for five and a half million dollars to this gullible couple and is she just running out the string before putting that in a Swiss account or whatever and then somebody's gonna get caught but she's just passed through it's fascinating but there is no equivalent in music or writing or whatever where you could

defraud one person out of five million dollars based on picture you know like a bunch of paint on a four by four canvas which the intrinsic value of that is like a hundred and fifty dollars right of like material yeah and everything else is about this sort of suspension of disbelief or this shared illusion that we are all gonna dream together that this is worth something now it's comforting weirdly to go like oh there's a handful of things that are so beautiful they're invaluable

something about that story yeah is appealing well and also there are people in between like art consultants that will say this one's appreciating and that one's not this one's on the downslad and that artist star is rising yeah so a lot of it is sort of a stock market like it's like vapor wear crypto or whatever where if we all believe together that this person is on the rise then we can justify that and then you do have a lot of manipulation you'll find the same buyer by his

painting for a million dollars shows it in some gallery or traveling show which raises its profile

sells it to some friend for ten million who sells it again for twenty and everybody's sort of in on this creating the marketplace who is a famous story of the Christopher wool painting that says whatever that quote from apocalypse now and it's just type and it's like a long tall painting within a handful of years it went from $800,000 to like twenty two million dollars and it was just like this turning also there's no sympathetic victims in any of these cases you don't really feel

bad for someone has an extra twenty two million dollars to get taken advantage of. Now I do want to bring him back to the book for once I could say though although cricket's obviously observing all that madness cricket's also experiencing the real value of our in two kind of pivotable moments in the book one being he gets singled out in high school for this painting of a weasel right

“even before I think they like ten and that is extremely hurtful to Robert he puts his stepdad”

or whatever's face on a weasel that's been hit by his roadkill police put on an art fair and it's sort of like a PSA about careful on the road or something so he uses it as a way to get back yeah so he experiences the power of it yeah and then he's working at this store he makes a painting of someone that's dear to two people in his life well yeah it gets hung up and he experiences the love of art right the transmission of love yeah so he's felt the power of it yeah he's felt

the love of it so there are these glimpses of what it's really about for sure I mean I think at every step cricket in the moment and I don't know if you had this experience but with any art form I certainly have painting where you're painting and in the moment there's nothing better in the world than moving color around a canvas and you think you're doing some masterpiece every single time

on every level and then you back up and it's a piece of garbage it does not look like anything

“like what you intend to do and it's not working in any way but how can you sort of like stay in”

that moment when you were in love with the process and what you were doing and cricket always

is struggling with transferring that moment of being in it to like the result which is never what you wanted to be and then there's that second stage that artwork being put out into the world which is often a miserable process that you don't want to have anything to do with so I think he never masters it whereas Olympia would and most people or a lot of people would master like okay well I'll figure this out but he never can transfer the love of what he wants to do in that moment

or attribute to his friend or drawing spaceships on the floor of his grandfather's basement but to something else and do something in public or make a living added or master the business side of it because the teacher carpenter at one point is like probably the most talented guitarist in the world is playing for a journey cover band in Reno but there's many different reasons why that person isn't heading up some innovative band but there's so many other things that

“you have to do to sort of achieve whatever kind of success however you might define it but”

it's not just talent and there's a lot of other things showing up on time there's having or being burdened by ambition and cricket really doesn't have any Olympia applies this ambition to come on do this thing show up at this one thing do more of that people will buy this at no point hell can he do it and I'm fascinated by those people and I can't say I know a lot of them but like every so often you will find some artists in a little town off the beaten path in Alaska and they

just do this brilliant work but never want to go anywhere else or do anything else yeah yeah I often

ruminate the stories I consider telling there might fears right like I think about writing a movie about something with children because I'm so afraid of that yeah do you think some part of you recognizes how fucking precarious the whole thing is what an improbable result that you have made a living a good one out of pursuing something artistic in that you know somewhere in the back your mind like I could also be cricket sure for anybody that has the luck of being able to do

this for living and it's really just about a publisher saying they'll publish the next thing that's all there is that's the hundred percent of the success of it it's like really you're going to do all right good and if you can pave the bills doing it one the lottery but these days even though not everyone's reading as much as they used to there are more readers by a factor of a million new people every day than there have ever been in the history of the world 1900 how many liter at

people were right tiny percentage of the globe and then suddenly we have almost universal literacy around a globe of eight billion people so even where some things are getting a little harder probably the best time ever to be trying to make a living as a writer because there's just more people more ways to do it they internet gets books out in different ways you get the word out there's sub-stack now everyone can have their own sub-stack now if you can make that work that's

income but in terms of publishing and in terms of it being a time to do this for a living it's really the very best time in the history of human evolution to try to be a writer making a living this more people making a living out of an ever before because 1900 you could probably count as a few dozen people right has novel it yeah my other last just curiosity is I went through this program the

“groundlings I think 3,000 people enter for every 15 they get to the Sunday company was the number”

that was given to me maybe that's right around the point is I saw and worked with him at so many people that were better at doing characters and I was there were better writers and I was they didn't have some combination of ambition or show up and do whatever the thing was I have this kind of weird survivor's guilt and I could imagine myself writing this book motivated out of that a little bit in my travels I met crickets and it's not fair and I want to honor a cricket yeah I mean I

always say to my students I've met a lot of brilliant first draft writers that will not revise

they do the one thing and that's it in my ordinary way multiple times I honor you with my first draft I'm going to lunch those people we know what happens to them right they can't do the work so humility is a real thing and I'm not endorsing crickets way because I don't live that way myself I'm happy to take feedback I'm happy to like do the 20 drafts I want to learn and I also know how bad my first drafts are and so when you come up through newspapers you're beaten down

you have no choice but to be humble because they chop every single thing you do but then it makes

little harder you can do it all night or without a problem but I think there's so much humility involved and also knowing I don't know I mean the guilt part I feel bad that that that you don't have

that I don't well because I always see anybody that does the work I see and I always believe

every good book will be published we're all looking for them as publishers so if you put in the work and do the 10 drafts you're 12 or 15 like the rest of us do and you listen and there's maybe some

“spark there that's something unusual it'll get published we're all looking for those books so I think”

again it's the most democratic medium because you don't need it to agree in anything to be able to do it the problem is people's bar isn't just to get published it's to be a you you know to be a household name and that's ego really depends on who then we get into like how do you measure success for a lot of people it's publisher will put out your next book and then they spend a lot of time teaching maybe you know they're teaching at UCLA that's a great life to have the luckiest life

anybody could ever have is being able to convey what you know to the next generation you get your books out every few years that's so many friends doing that and they are unbelievable teachers

couple like USC USC as a incredible department you know there's so many people making a living

adjacent to we have read a bow and pull the editor of mixed meanings as a novelist to and she's balancing those two things but that's a very lucky life too but there are way more options

“than there ever were before do a little advertising writing you do a screenplay there maybe there's”

of this there's that there's a sub stack there's a podcast two people are probably writing tweets and they're writing Instagram copy you know as a side hustle people are managing other people's accounts if one of the funniest writers I've ever met has been a Facebook for like 20 years writing like internal stuff a little brighter but raising kids on it and doing great and she's been treated very well and if she wants to do side stuff then that's great would cricket learns early when

he's working at this gallery is that the ambition and the gap between where you want to be and where you reasonably should or could be that's where misery comes from is like I should be this but I'm not realistic about getting there or I'm not willing to do the work to get there or maybe I just don't belong or whatever it is that's where you get the tortured artist and so trying to find like where's my equilibrium what don't I love about this cricket learns he can't

possibly be at an art opening with his paintings surrounding him people pouring wine on him or whatever so how do you rule out you probably done this a hundred times like how do you rule out the thing I really don't like to do that audition stop and say okay well how do I gravitate to this and put together a different mosaic of the things I really like and it might be on a different

scale might not live in New York but you live in Indiana whatever cut your expenses by 90 percent

you know all of these different things sort of have to think about it at so many stages of life to be like well now that the kids are out of the house what does life look like for us and are we happiest as opposed to just moving along at the expected rate of things but I'm not

“saying I successfully do this all the time but periodically you can assess what you need to cut out”

what miseries can you cut out of your life there no longer obligations I just want to say I just love eight to six once yeah I got to see like what you've done with these places the first one I guess in the mission right to have the least that you guys had to sell shit yeah zoning obligation yeah so they sell pirate stuff Monica and it's really just a place for um eight to six of lenseas where kids can come and get tutored and they can get help writing

and they get mentorship but you can't just open up a mentorship clinic in certain zones you have to sell products in the storefront so a lot of these locations now there's one in Echo Park right yeah this is called park time travel mark it's a seven eleven yeah from the way back do you know how that place was funded oh so jet appetizer's been a supporter he had an idea one time he's like let's do a fundraiser he had been giving money for years but he's like let's do

a fundraiser where we parody L.A.'s tendency to pat themselves on the back for any sort of charitable stuff that they do he's like let's do a night of good intentions where we honor Seth Rogan this was a long time ago he had only done freaks and geeks we're gonna honor Seth Rogan for the philanthropic work he's considering doing in the future love it a little girl can stop and bend stiller and like food fighters all in one night like you know we're

so proud of you Seth for considering possibly a future doing something for somebody and then he gets up he's like I have no idea who these people are I mean I don't know what A.26 is I don't know what I was talking about but judge charts like a thousand dollars a plate and so all the people in L.A. came he had the ten-day old flower arrangements from the Golden Globes he had

enough money to build the entire center in Echo Park just like you know $250,000 in a night

“by parodying L.A.'s self-indulence yeah it's self-congregulatory and all so that one's been”

open almost 15 years now it's a beautiful spot after school how publishing it's been home to a couple generations now kids have grown up there and they publish these kids work these kids get to have published work and the books are solid they're fucking yeah it's that cool library of 2000 and these books now up in San Francisco so if you're over up there yeah but come by there because it looks like a seven-millimeter walk right past it because it's exactly

a seven eleven like bad robot helped decorate it and then Mac Barnett who's a children's book author he's the ambassador for children's literature right now from the Library of Congress but he was the guy at charge he was the executive director at the time they all built it so you'll walk right past it but then if you go in there's a secret door that leads to the back and then that's the tutoring center so for kids that get extra help there's no stigma about it you know it's like going

into this school place as opposed to the sterile after school help for kids falling behind sort of spot so all of the centers around the country have different themes yeah you don't want to be behind a glass window with classmates like fucking looking at I mean these places exist yeah it's horrifying and usually you're paying for that tutoring and to be seen I won't name this one said I know

“of but it is horrifying this is all free everything's free if you want to support a two six”

Valencia is there a website a two six Valencia a two six LA is the one down here a two six Boston whatever city happened 11 we accept money yeah people yeah still accepted that's so awesome it's very cool I watched a lot of footage of these kids and they have these assignments like go out on the street and interview people right now and like these little kids bump into someone

who's like this woman's the very first test to baby that was my class you're okay you're fun

Francisco my kids out to interview the most interesting person they see and they went to a bookstore and they met the woman that says well I'd happen to be the first test to baby you got lucky so they entered them came back wrote it this up you know the other things you end up we have about a thousand tutors down here so you end up meeting kids that you share the city with and this kids meet all these caring adults that give a few hours a month so it's sort of tightness

“the fabric of a city especially a vast one where you can feel disconnected by roads and neighborhoods”

but there it's like oh I saw you live around the corner in aqua park you see the kid grocery store all of there yeah it's like you know get to know the parents everybody and those kids especially right now and they're being villainized and like ostracized because they're parents or they're immigrants this is like a way to say to you belong you have all of us we're all behind you you got a thousand advocates you got a thousand allies come to us and so these

are real safe havens especially in the last 10 12 years the work has been a lot more urgent yeah okay the last thing that's very frivolous and not philanthropically motivated is do you go to the jetpack academy yeah in more park California you've been there I have not I didn't know one could to receive training for jetpack flight so it's still there I mean you're only like an hour away you gotta go okay it's in an avocado farm what's the propulsion just jet fuel it is an actual jet

it looks like it's not like the cartoon of a jetpack okay it's modeled it after every image you ever saw and sci-fi version of it was in the Olympics back in like 1988 the guy came in and landed it yeah so it looks the same this is crazy australian guy that made his version of it and you've got whatever 12 pounds of jet fuel however you measure it on your back in the two things but you're on a tether so you're testing it in the middle of this avocado farm and you know there's a you

know landing strip you know you pull the throttle you do a little bit of this and that and then you're on a tether which makes it extremely difficult because it catches yeah so yeah and then but so it can't really get a feel for it it's not as romantic as you want to be and then it burns the absolute shit out of your feet because like the jet fuel coming and it's spreading out on the concrete where your feet are so it's not a super romantic process I really like experimental

flight I've tried a lot of different weird yeah you know the drones are gonna work I'm watching

people fly drones around any minute those are the most promising the problem is fuel and like how

do you carry enough to take you really as far as you want to go they all have pretty limited scopes what I almost did up in Ventura is the motor paragliding yeah that interests me and you can do that in a weekend I've done ultra lights that's going like a motorcycle with a hanglider on top yet but my friends that know what they're talking about say that they're called parasailing and notice how parasailing but that that's the better it's like motor and paragliding mesh stuff that's

on like where did you take off he's like oh it took off from 1000 oaks yeah and I'm like why this

this isn't that thing where you're like I'm like the bat suit and all these people die no that's a wingsuit and those are deadly yeah everyone that does a dice this is you have a paragliding parachute above you and then you have a gas engine I'm back with a fan yeah and it propels you and you can fly oh another I was doing this movie without a paddle in the stunt coordinator had shipped his to New Zealand and we had to go into this jungle is either an hour and a half driver they

started helicoptering us because it took so long and this dude was flying from his hotel is motorized paraglider to work and I'm like what a stud look at this you have a field it can land on any kind of field you see a lot of in like Nebraska that's where they fly a lot of those yeah and you don't even need license because it's ultra light it's below the category where you need a license but I check every time they get a little bit closer to one of these they're super expensive you know

I mean the real drone technology is like half a million dollars or something and I need a really good self-deploying parachute that noticed I'm falling quicker than I would want to fall yeah yeah I mean it's fun to go see the jet pack the other problem is it is it you can only carry

enough even if you knew how to fly the problem is you can only carry it in a fuel for two

“three minutes right right so that's why you never see the menu where you could just like you know”

bad but oh kind of fun well Dave even though you don't like talking about yourself we got through it I want to applaud you we did it yeah you revealed just enough for us so gentle I think you're a just a beautiful rider and contra posto is in keeping with all of your really wonderful work so I hope everyone checks that out what a delight to meet you I've been hearing about you from Kimmel and you deliver thanks so much thanks for having me absolutely guys just a quick reminder that as part of our

summer break here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks from your picture board now this one wasn't on my board this one's impromptu oh improvised it's great you know it's funny as I was in the shower today and I've been ordering a lot of slacks you've seen me and I'm there's new slacks yeah drawstring little bagger trousers trousers pantalunas multiple colors all this is say I get them I like them I put them on my closet and they're gone forever and then about

well I wear the same two that are in front of me and I actually was thinking the shower like I need to do what Monica does or just another thought I had is like lay out seven outfits and that's what I'm gonna wear that we can't we ever try that technique yeah that's a common technique it's very

“okay so I didn't discover anything no you did you're on the break you should because it's healthy”

stupid to buy clothes and all that and then I think I don't have any because I wear the same two pants that I like and then I get more and then as I'm putting those away they're next to brand new other pants I bought that I like that's a guy think because I have the same way with my pants oh you are I don't think it's like I think it's a everyone thing like people other go to jeans and they're go to you forget when you buy new stuff to mix it up unless you commit yourself like I have

fashion did you see my closet video this could be no my gosh I posted a closet video oh and does it include your photograph yeah oh wow it's a bit regretful because it was also impromptu improvised uh very random just came over okay and I was telling him about my fashion endeavors and then I was like oh I should show you my closet so then I was doing that and then he was filming and it didn't even realize it was something that you might post but then you saw and you're like

I'm gonna post it yeah I was like oh it's funny but it is funny it's not aspirational yeah I know I know that well you got to stay a little relatable that's true you know I am labeled because right now my clothes smell bad this outfit smells bad oh god what kind of stink I I don't know if it's from the dry cleaning oh I did walk so the sweat probably made it worse

“I was like sweat well that's great it doesn't it smells like weird smell and the sweat I think”

exacerbated it okay if you had to compare this smell to something could you well then I wonder like is it moths smell but then I don't know what moths smell they know you think of moth balls yeah

moths don't smell moth balls smell to repel moths oh yeah that's the thing I always curious

about there's always kids in school whose mothers just chalked their closets full of moth balls okay and then they reclick moth balls because what it's human repellent as well that's not because it's nasty okay well that makes me feel good it's not moths I thought moth balls were made from moth oh okay I thought they like ser left behind little banners you know like they leave legs oh anyway so it's not that's who's the dry cleaner oh fuck well okay it definitely I've noticed

to so I was in my Miami trip and I have a system when I travel I throw all my dirty clothes in the

corner for whatever room I'm inhabiting the end of the trip I have two sides of my suitcase I keep all the fresh ones on one side and I put all the dirties in a ball in the other side then when I get home I just take that ball I put it in the hamper and then I put away my fresh clothes uh-huh so I had shoured I did very minimal things and I went to work out and then I you know I pee next to the garage today no no this is maybe a week and a half ago it was after Miami

“okay this resulted from Miami okay I think I know you do okay well take a guess that'd be”

it could be fun okay so you peed by the garage and when you peed by the garage you took your underwear down and when you looked at the underwear it was definitely dirty because one of the dirty clumps moved into the clean clump okay close poop stay no okay okay so I guess it's not bad bad oh I don't in general have shit streaks I wouldn't guess that about you yeah I'm pretty clean I'm pretty meticulous well just specific I don't even think I'm that clean my anus is an

obsession of mine you know I have the but I have the brondle and I squirt water in there and I'm just yeah I do rub my finger on that people don't like that but I do you know fuck it I put my finger on it in the shower I clean it and then I use toilet paper to dry off and then I wash my hands yeah okay so okay so I pee next to the garage and then I went in and then I sniff my fingers as you do yeah I thought I'm like there's a little bit of like

ball smell like I would which I don't again I also don't really ever get stinky balls I have to not shower for a few days to get that okay but I just shower that morning I was like what the fuck how could I already have stinky undercarriage when I just shower it was driving me bonkers right and then I peed another time and I'm like god damn it it's there maybe it's even worse now I'm consumed with it so when I finish my work and I'm like I'm gonna have to shower well actually

I didn't think I'm gonna have to shower and I thought I'm gonna have to wash my testicles and penis in the sink which I sometimes do okay and so I went upstairs and I was about to do that and I was saying I just thought oh my god I'm gonna smell my underwear I took up my underwear is Lordy Lord what's obvious is they were not clean yeah so although I was very clean I put on my on these and it contaminated my dirty one made its way into the clean that's exactly right

“and I can't remember having pantalunies undercarriage on men's and mansionables that even smelled”

that bad right why would it smell that what Miami okay very hot very humid sure then take them off in their god knows you know and they're just not getting any better smelling and then they're in okay oh god anyways what a humiliation well you apologize selfish yeah it's true I'm like you I go to the worst place like I've had it okay I got a tumor so I'm like oh my god now I'm someone who's ball stink three hours every shower that's scary what's happening with me hormonally you know

I'm going to all these crazy explanations never even thinking maybe my panties smells and maybe

it wow well that's an easy fix so best case yeah I have an experience at sense but now in my little shook about that pair of panties and I love that pair of panties they're dark black with very colorful hearts on them uh huh so I wore them the other day and I sniffed it because I was like were they clean and they're permanently so good but then I sniffed sniffed clean as a cucumber but I had some anxiety all day I was like every time I pee it I was like you thought

maybe it was going to get released yes I just because I had that traumatic experience yeah well you know I mean there's reason to fear because sometimes when fairmones get crossed weird stuff can

“happen I think you're referencing when you borrow a girlfriend shirt then the girlfriend doesn't have”

be oh zero and you don't have be oh I hope I don't you don't I've known you for quite a while

never smelled be oh on you and then but when I wear the shirt I do have be I have like a

it smells crazy but it's the mixture of the fair mom yeah and you have a you know which friend you can't share tops with Kaylee's one of them right she's one of them it's not gross because neither of you have me I know but it's not her okay thinking Kaylee this is relevant so I had dinner with her and she just got out of covid and during covid she got really into drive to survive she did not yes so her mx yeah they've been watching it and of course so she was you know cross

referencing with me a lot like okay what do you like this person do like this person who you like

Daniel Ricardo okay this is what I'm getting it oh my god no you're not gonna like it okay okay so

she's a what teams and I said I just like whatever Danny's on he's my favorite and she was like really and I was like yeah what do you mean I was like I loved him he's the best one and she was like oh he seems he seems a little full of himself and then I said oh my god that's the thing DAX was talking about on the show where some people think he's sincere about that I guess there's something and I was like oh that's that thing then I told her that he's perfect and lovely and very

nice and she said oh I was wrong yeah nicest manners in the world gentle boy not arrogant at all no that's his character I am I had to correct that I had to write that wrong she was receptive to it oh good and um I'm glad she was flexible in her she loved she loved she likes saints okay sure

“when you look at saying you go this is this guy is dirty I do think that when I see him but I think”

the same thing about Leclerc like they all stink bad no not stink no oh no stop saying that you're perpetuating a false rumor I'm saying like nasty like get in the bedroom he's throwing you all around moving your body doing all kinds of advanced Spanish love making techniques that's what I think okay I think she's responding to his carnal sex appeal okay maybe like Leclerc is

much better looking than the things but that's all in the eye of the behold to me I'm always

speaking for myself okay I think Leclerc is is much cuter than science but if I had to guess there were 10 volunteers who slept with both of them my guess would be science comes out as the better lover that is my spidey sense intuition okay you're worried about me perpetuating rumors that he's a good lover well that also that Leclerc is not didn't say that I was going to hear

“no he's not I he what he's going to hear as I think he's better looking and then I think that”

science is a little bit better of a lover although Leclerc is a very generous lover although no last time I was talking about Leclerc I was I was hypothesizing that he was a too pumped

chump exactly you really made it clear you think he's bad no I love Leclerc anyway

he's in my top three drivers what if I said you know Dex is obviously better looking but I would much rather have sex with oh yeah yeah you hate that well hold on no let's just be real that was really good that's kind of she could probably be mad that I said the other part well so what you would need to say though it's got to be identical you'd say you're much better looking than Bradley but I think if you and Bradley had sex with 10 women the women would prefer having sex with Bradley

okay and that's real rough that's rough but not as bad as what you just said before

“why say he's way better than you yeah that's what you're saying I didn't say that stop putting”

words on I said that science is preferred not way better you are splitting hair oh I am okay that's that's what we do here new on okay non-binary okay preferred all change my verbage to prefer okay 10 girls would prefer sleeping with Bradley over you preferred the experience they had sex with both you and they prefer they you'd hate of course well of course I'd hate yeah you know a good question is we're getting somewhere good we're actually we're approaching something good

okay so here's a here's an option you only get one of these two great looking or great in bed what would you rather be known for oh known for mm like I know for me what it is well I know for you what it is what is it good bed oh yeah of course because that's where the rubber meets the road I think I think everyone would rather be good and bad I don't know because I think some people who don't really give a fuck about sex they're not super sexual they'd rather just walk through the

world being super attractive and people smiling at them and buying them drinks and whatnot then I don't care if I'm good and bad I'm good enough now what would you rather be Robbie good and bad yeah yeah I think the hard thing is if you're if you're not good looking it's hard to prove you're good and bad this is the conundrum right anyway so does she want to start watch is she going to start watching races and shit Kelly she wants to I think now she's in she loves it

great yeah the only mine have to have more for a race day oh they would love that Max asked if I liked Pierre Gassley so also he's my brother's favorite really yeah he loves them I said he looked greasy but the Max said no is just the sweat from driving

no I think comes sweaty greasy that's a different one that's got a little bit of a potentially a racist connotation why he's white I know but there's certain populations of white people that have a reputation of being greasy who I'll tell you off the air but I'm not going to do it here tell me no anyway okay so Max likes Pierre does anyone like Max no oh that's party yeah universe yeah wow he's so arrogant that he's not even arrogant that is not the word

I would you describe him oh okay like he never says he's great that's not for me

personal he is the best driver in Formula I don't disagree yeah and he doesn't even really say that I don't love a fuck off attitude in general in life I'm not attracted to anyone who's like that right he carries himself like that is the same as me I know but you love Michael Jordan like Michael Jordan was punching his teammates in practice but Michael Jordan does not have a fuck off attitude he's not like if someone who doesn't know as much as him tells him what to do he has a very

“fuck off attitude and that's what you see with Max quite but he would but even just the way he talks”

to like interviewers he refuses to play the game even a little bit and I don't like that I'm like

these are fans these are people who are paying a lot of money to see you can you kind of a little bit of a cultural break that he's Dutch they don't do the Pleasantry thing everyone in the Netherlands and the North there they don't believe in the in the little small talk the Pleasantries they get right to it I don't believe it's small talk either I hate it but you are a popular sports figure making a ton of money doing exactly what you love you have a great life just be

alone just feel nicer okay I'm just gonna make an argument for him okay which is he's not paid to do any of that stuff he is paid to win races for Redville hold on you said your piece

“okay go he has one job win races that is his job and that's why he gets paid more money if you”

wanted a PR guy you should have hired a PR guy if you want a guy that thinks about nothing but winning races is a psychopath about winning races then hire me and I'll go win races but if you need a guide to go sell Red Bull as a beverage or sell Formula One as a sport I'm not the dude I care about a single thing winning races I respect that okay that was my piece I get it I know what you're saying it's not attractive to watch someone be rude or short with everyone

could care less when people are excited like it's it's to me very off putting even when he wins so dear listen on the radio and he wins like when he comes across the finish line and they'll go like that was p1 max and I'll go all right that was a good race that's it the other people are like doing backflips in the car and screaming and stuff he's just a very you know robotic yeah yeah I'm I'm not trying to convince you to not like him you know like

I don't think you are loving you keep loving him but not my preferred personality yeah right

I like Danny who's nice and kind and always looking out for the little guy and his conscientious

“I like that personality that's what I'm drawn to one of the questions lobbed my way was what do you”

think of Will Blank forget his last name the journalist on drive to survive back up well what now that was a question from Cali to me oh you know like what do you think is this person what do you think of Will Buckston's journalist he's handsome the English dude yeah yeah he's very handsome he kind of looks like a driver a little bit she's deep if she wants to know that's right yeah stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare

okay what does Ashantay mean Ashantay means nice to meet you nice to meet you I can't really say it to you because I I met you long time ago I know it also does it does say and chanted oh good maybe we get enchanted from that it's a very elegant work it is yeah it's greasy farts on an airplane like snakes on a plane farts on a plane hmm why you fart so much on planes is that how is was that why you fart not why do you oh it's why you find it's an answer not a question yeah

this says as it turns out there's a scientific reason people often fart more while traveling

oh flatest expulsion the gastrointestinal syndrome was described in a 1981 study as characterized

“by an increase in both the volume and the frequency of the passage of flatest particularly occurs”

while climbing to altitudes of 11,000 feet or greater I've never heard flatchillants just

shortened to flatest oh my god excuse my flatest Ashantay that study found that as air pressure decreases at higher altitudes gases inside your body expand and need to be let out all though it was based more on being up in the mountains than inside a pressurized plane but additionally in 2013 study that a participants record how often they fart a while driving up an Australian mountain hypothesis that quickly moving from a low altitude to a higher one draws more carbon dioxide

dear guy oh right it is you know and if you think about it it's the reverse of the bends you have less pressure on you so the gas comes out when you have extra pressure it condenses

“it's so much in getting your bloodstream less pressure in your asshole more pressure in your bloodstream”

keep it in your asshole folks oh man oh Jesus okay this is the transition okay so back story

the almost the second after I said that the bends is on the opposite scale we stopped down as we

say in the biz where we call it stop down oh I didn't know that oh wow okay I typed something stop down and we did a really cool interview and then the things got cray then we stopped up and all from the kids were home from school yes so the next section of the fact that it's longer some some some guests haha it's chaos please enjoy the chaos we had just finished parts on an airplane I was expecting it there's it up here love so someone ripped in class and you were trying

to figure who it was yeah this is a ding ding ding ding to our fart story because what happened to

“that but I was just sitting there and everything's normal we are redoing an multiplication unit”

and then I just smelled something in the air but I was like oh it's just a smell and then it came

at me they came at me so far no it grew and grew I had to stand up and pretend to strike oh yeah so you did you look around the classroom to make eye contact with other people like are you saying this too I I have farted in weird places so I know what position I love to sit in what I fart oh it's silent I saw the people sitting asked me and I looked at Harper and she was sitting underneath and I said that's not a good place to fart oh it would have like

skin-to-cancer feet so it would have made it loud sound all right really good flu thing yeah and then I looked at Craven and she was sitting in the crisscross apple sauce and I was like no way no you're sitting on too much weight so that would be thunderous if you farted during Chris Crisscross apple sauce it would be like a trumpet in your pants um and then I looked at Dylan and he was sitting like he was hugging his knees technically oh that's not a good place to fart

also a blast that'd be a trumpet unless you unless you rolled up a little bit you're right you know I imagine pulling your your knees tight to your chest it would be like yeah it would fucking rip what you're trying to get is like your buns is pushed together as possible no pressure anywhere in your body so you can let it leak out you the exactly you don't you want to do it you guys I have a much this is fascinating I have a much different tactic for a silent fart

yes I want the butt cheeks to be spread spread spread open yeah oh so you'll what do the splits no I I guess I don't really put it in a public anymore you've been over and spread your butt cheeks and then smell the minute later you might as well just made a noise okay normally I do this if I'm in like a public bathroom oh so I can use my hands and you spread your butt cheeks apart physically yeah oh wow that's wonderful isn't anyone doing that

that I saw and then I did a physical good okay and what was it a male or a female it was a female okay and how was her I will say yeah I was afraid you were only gonna blame it on a dude because we're gross but yeah I'm the worst what kind of position was she in I'm just slowly lifting up my butt oh my butt her butt was like high so oh yeah wow I've impressed you

I actually had to pee dry that time so maybe I thought no did somebody think were you scared

“I wanted I actually had to do the bathroom before the fart came sure and he just said I can't go”

right now so wait two minutes oh boy and then person started just letting it air out it was like load and load and load and load and wow there was this one time I thought I was gone and I was like fresh air and then new round and it was even worse super oh oh oh and I feel like it was another

person this was also a female she always points out far so it's so pretty hard and she did not

play that so that's just melted out it oh that's the opposite but she was sitting across her ass apples us so I think you lifted up her butt she might have a different technique like Monica but I have to say that's a really good proof if she's always busting people about farting and it's dunking there like a dead raccoon and she was quiet that's very incriminating unless the teacher pulled her aside at one point and said please don't do that anymore it's embarrassing

“for the students and I wish the teacher would do that because well you should be embarrassed”

for farting I'm thinking of the class sure but we must agree some things are embarrassing and society because this is what I think I feel bad for you kids is like you're in your home you've

been farting since you were born we don't care at all always think it's funny and then we

send you to this box that you sit in with other kids and we haven't even told you it's not cool to fart in public and you got to learn the hard way right like did it did you ever get embarrassed at any point like did did you rip one at any point that someone busted you no nobody caught me you just knew somehow to keep them on that down down low nobody caught me unless I actually didn't know it's coming yeah sure it's a prize fart

yeah that was a good part always that was a lot of that I'm I'm impressed okay

I do think maybe it's evolutionary that we know not to do that in front of strangers we'll get

removed from the group yeah you'll be excited because of stinging us yeah it's a good reason you look like Zazzi today Zazzi oh thank you okay quick last question how frequently do you smell farts in the classroom is it every day there's only been I don't know three or four five farts this month that's not bad at all have been holding them in or just have it had to work okay do you think it correlates to the school

lunch great theory like whatever hot lunch is a cabbage kimchi the weird thing is a lot of people fart before lunch oh it's interesting breakfast fart well maybe they didn't evacuate in the morning oh they're not on a good sketch who's there hi D money oh my gosh you laugh we did this beautiful hair oh and it matches your sweater you look like a real rock star you look like a whole wrap I'm doubted to use smell any farts in your class today

coffee's in here oh yeah that's a Starbucks teddy bear but it has to stay in here because David brought it for the attic you come up here and play with it that's from New Zealand my love that's from a faraway country like seventeen hours in an airplane away but you can come up here with it will make you it'll give you something to look forward to when you come up here but didn't anyone fart in your class today you got to oh crime and you got chocolate yes those come from New Zealand

as well they're not that they're not good at all they're terrible don't tell David it's like a skittle a chocolate skittle those are you Mikey likes it when's the last time you smell to bad fart Friday and what happened I just smelled it too when you smell a tune in class do you say ooh somebody farted or do you just keep it to yourself I just gave it to myself that's nice yes exactly how often do you fart in class 20 times a day so they does smell like farts in the

classroom just your fart yeah well you're making a real name for yourself because you're you got

“purple hair in your fart in 20 times a day I think the sky's the limit for you wait what is this what are”

we are we're on television right now we're doing a podcast and then Lincoln was up here so we

and I talk she and Monica busts me on what facts I got wrong a fart check park this is come

a fart check yeah oh yeah well listen well you guys shut up and listen to Monica and you guys will learn oh wow so now you're shutting me up you know this is what boys do I think because I was just waiting a math problem today and Draven didn't get it and then Dylan said don't worry all explain it and I said this is my problem I can explain it oh there you go I'm proud of you

“doing that yeah you can explain it you're capable boys are the worst that's why you guys don't”

want no one wants this he but yeah no one wants this not that absolutely what's this leave because of the farts no those are bad also but I feel so bad for daddy it's just leave with this stuff that's what they no one wants this leave with me and I there oh fight to sleep with mom and I said

you guys how do you think I feel I always have to sleep with daddy let's just be practical about it

what about sleeping with mommy is better mommy I don't know she's just not daddy which is enough Lincoln you were so little three maybe you're four and and I was caring you and you you said that no well sure I cleaned up lots of your poop but I was caring you and you said something like I don't I can't hold you like a mom holds you and I was so sad but it was also the truth these kids are heartbreaking this is very recent this was when we were in the old house

and I was in the bathtub I didn't know why but this farts just came up and says hello and I turned around to grab the shampoo and I found that I pooped in the bathtub oh yeah that was happening things happened from time to time we get it you name you poop a poop baby we have a pee baby mama can I have a pee baby so why not have a poop baby yeah that's right it's a pee baby a pee baby is I peed in a toilet and there's no flush and then daddy had a piece of

pee peed so then our peas were in the same toilet and never flush so they turned into a baby

we said it turned into a pee baby lives at my house still there just get not a kindergarten at this one I did and I tell the one story about you Delta yeah I ready I love this story I was putting you guys the bed Delta you were probably three and you said oh I got a poop I said okay you went in and you took a poop and it was a size of a moose's poop like I thought a moose had poop in the toilet and I said oh my god honey you once the last time you poop and you're like I couldn't I don't

“remember that was the biggest poop you'd ever taken so then I put you in your diaper and then I put”

you in bed and I put Lincoln and bed and when he's read a book and we snuggle and then I go outside I shut the door and I just turned on the TV and all of a sudden I heard daddy I farted is diarrhea and then I went in there I thought how could you have possibly just had diarrhea you just had an entire evac I went in there I picked you up your diaper was completely ruined it took you into the bathroom if you remember and you had poop on your back and you bucked whoa wow and I was like where did all this come

okay last thing I'm this is the last thing we're going to get to talk delta we need to do your song she did that 11 hundred times this morning before wait where'd you learn that mommy does that thanks dee money all right now you guys have to be quite so into our business we got a great fart story and we got a great deed I'll do it though yeah oh yeah let's hear the fact they got to

“see how the sausage is made okay we have one fact left the fact is oh and actually this is relevant”

Lincoln loves F1 as he was me everybody um I don't like that okay the fact is about how many employees work on the Mercedes team okay more than nine hundred and fifty employees and F1 team this isn't

people depending on whether it's at the front or back of the grid and how much in-house manufacturing

“it does and whether it produces an engine or buys one in yeah and then how many people work at”

Mercedes more than seven hundred employees work twenty-four hours a day oh wow that's confusing

because that would have to be fourteen hundred and twenty-one or if they're talking about

“most even though the thing is that he has a million employees right okay then yeah it is saying”

that and then that one said nine fifty more than twenty-four hours a day seven days a week on the broccoli site oh oh boy this is this is the tough question mommy's is technically better

“because she's got control of her instrument yours is twenty times more entertaining so how”

do we know how what I decide what do you mean like mommy sounds identical to the actual

jib jabs song right because she's a mimic and yours is yours and it's incredible so I'm I would say

I would rather hear yours than mommy's and I got a hunch I'm gonna tonight can I do it one more time for a climb for a goodbye yes anything you want to say before we go far dig in public should be weird okay good then and then we're gonna go out with a song this is not an original this is a cover song from the artist formerly known as delta you're gonna chip on good idea all right I love you guys I love you love you love you love you love you

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