43. THE JOURNEY Episode 3: The Journey

The possible is easy for me, I don't look for the possible, I look for the impossible now.

“You're listening to asylum speakers, The Journey. I'm your host, Jazohara, and together with some very special guests,”

we'll be taking you on a journey across the world without you having to go anywhere. For this very special season of the podcast, we followed common migration routes taken by refugees and asylum seekers from Africa, the Middle East and Ukraine, all the way through Europe, documenting stories along the way. We spent time with people leaving their countries and everything behind them, to the volunteers and staff working alongside them, and the host communities in each of the migration hotspots we visited.

Many of the people we spoke to along this journey are being supported by projects funded by comic reliefs across borders programme, which thanks to the donations from the UK public, investing organisations supporting refugees and asylum seekers along these routes.

These first-hand accounts are here to educate, inspire, and debunk some of the common myths and misconceptions around migration today.

“Listen carefully because, for many of these people, this podcast is the first opportunity they've had for their important story to be heard.”

Join us as we transcend borders, nationalities, religions and languages to hear from the people with which we share this world, our worldwide tribe. [Music] Welcome back to episode 3 of the journey, a six-part podcast series following migration routes from Africa, the Middle East and Ukraine to Northern Europe.

So far this season, we've explored the reasons why people are leaving their countries and we've taken a look at what life looks like in the first safe countries they arrived to.

As a result of how difficult things can be in that first safe country, we also know that many people are forced to continue their journey until they find a country where they can live in safety. Today we'll be hearing from some familiar guests in Turkey and Egypt about the dangers and risks of their journeys, but first I'm excited to introduce you to an old friend of mine, Shikali. I met Shikali many years ago now in a refugee camp in Greece while he was still on his journey. We stayed in touch as he continued to find the country that he would call home and he eventually settled in France.

Last time I saw him about three years ago, he was living in a tent under a bridge in Paris. This time though, we got together still in Paris, but he has a room, he's learnt French and he turned up to meet me wearing a blazer sunglasses and just generally looking amazing. You might hear that I was not feeling so fresh during this interview, it was the end of a long trip and I had a mad cold, so you'll probably hear that. But anyway, let's start from the beginning. Shikali is from Afghanistan and was forced to leave his country as a teenager after the Taliban specifically targeted his family because his dad works for international aid organizations.

When the Taliban is understand when my father is working, they ask him for support to money. My father said no, and then they said the leader will be killed you. Shikali explains the day that his whole life changed. In the morning my father said me be careful, be careful when you go to school, be careful. And then one day my father said how I'll find him in the district, our car is excluded by control mine.

“A controlled mine, so they put mine on your car and then they, how old were you?”

The Taliban succeeded in killing Shikali's father with an explosive device that they attached to his car. Shikali was also in the car and lost his leg in the attack. After that that explosion I lost my father, I'm in the hospital for two and a half years and then I... You had your leg amputated? Exactly, I amputated my love. After two years, you have two and a half years.

But Shikali was still not safe. Again I arrived as a leader from Taliban and they said, we tried to kill you and your father, your father is dead but you're not dead.

I decided to live Afghanistan.

“My whole family is fighting against of Taliban.”

They are fighting for the democracy there and they die. I lose my general, my legs. They are against of Taliban.

Shikali never planned to end up so far from home and told me that he definitely never intended to come to Europe.

Never helped him to come into Europe. Just to Iran or Pakistan to study there at some time. He planned to spend some time in neighbouring Iran or Pakistan until it was safe for him to return home. But life had other plans. Today we're going on this journey with him. From fleeing with Taliban and Afghanistan to a new home in France. Shikali didn't make the trip alone. He travelled with the lady that he now calls his sister and the five kids that she was travelling with who were from the same village.

When I left Afghanistan, I met a family in the border. From some village, I met her in the border. And I said, "Where do you want to go?" She said, "We want to go to Europe."

And I said, "I want to go to Iran. You are my sister. And wherever I go, you will be going with me. It's okay."

She said, "Yes. You have three children and two of you." She was allowed with all those kids. So Shikali and the family crossed the mountains into Iran. So we walked for many hours, for 15 or 15 hours. We were like, "Just imagine that I can't even imagine Shikali how difficult that must have been for you."

It's very difficult. No one wants to walk in the mountain with one leg, no one. But don't do that, maybe I'm dead in there. They will be killing me.

But life in Iran was not what they had hoped it would be.

When I go to Iran, and also there is very complicated. There is not easy. And I see the people, everything. I said, "No. I cannot stay here." You heard about the refugees, I've gone to refugees in Iran. More than 2,200 or 300 refugees killed in Iran. You have very many people.

I live in Afghanistan. I can go to Iran after 16 days. I'm Afghanistan to tell you, we are 16 days in their borders. In the Tehran, when I see I'm there for one day, for one day, and I'm looking at how a friend is there. I see them, they work it like 20 hours for days, 24 hours. They are working for two-one hours.

Construction exactly. I'm not saying, I say, "No, it's not good here." I cannot stay here. "How are you familiar with me?"

“I said, "If you want to go to Europe, I want to go to Turkey."”

And why would we see here, how is this situation there? And I live. So Shikali saw the treatment of other Afghans in Iran, working 20 hours a day for minimal pay, and decided to continue to Turkey alongside the women and children he was travelling with. From Iran to Turkey, that's very typical. We are 35 people.

The all is women, like we are three men, and all are children and women. And they are very lost a girl, she has her one years. Under the track of the Smogler, and she's dead dear. She's doing under the car. She's dead dear. Then we cross the border of the Turkey.

That will help make it 10 hours. In the morning, and there is the snow.

“So, that's why it called for the children.”

And then for the women, and we are three men, we cannot help everybody. You yourself, how is the pain in your neck? That's why I don't think about it because that's why I know. Because my leg is wounded.

When I come in the Turkey and I check out my prosthetic and the blood in my leg.

And then I don't think about it because I just have children. They are very important. And then, in the Turkey, after I see what after one hour we are in the house, I cannot move. It's very difficult to move it.

She hardly made it to the capital city of Turkey, Istanbul. And then we are coming to the Istanbul, and I see the Istanbul, and there is good. And I say, "Yeah, I will be still here."

“You guys hopefully remember life looks like refugees in Turkey for my last episode.”

And Chikali was quick to find this out too. I meet a lot of have gone people. And they say, "She is not good because you cannot ask for this island here." And when the police ask for the people as you don't have a paper, they will deport you in Afghanistan. Okay, so that other Afghan people that you met, they told you don't stay here.

It's difficult here. Then I say, "Yeah, I will be good to increase."

So Chikali and the family made the decision to attempt to enter Europe by crossing the sea

to the Greek island of Lesvos. How did you get the Lesvos from Turkey? True, of course, the more of the morning. We left the Turkey from Izmir. And we are a small ship, 12-meter.

Yeah, small boat. 75 people. I worried. Because I already heard about that. And I worried, that's very crazy.

You knew how dangerous it was. Yeah, that's very dangerous. 3-and-a-half-half hours. We are in the beach.

“If the Greek police, the Greek police is not coming.”

We will be dead everybody there. The machine of the ship, is a how problem. Then change it. Exactly. After 2-and-a-half hours, we see a small light from somewhere.

Very far away. A long way from us. That's the police stop work. And they take us in the grass. And we are good in the Lesvos.

So Chikali and the other people in his boat were saved by the Greek Coast Guard. And brought to the infamous Moria camp on Lesvos. Which Chikali describes as a prison. For 4-and-a-half months, we are still there. That's a prison.

That's a jail. For 6,000 more than 6,000 people just to one camp. But the camp is closed like prison. That's a prison. We don't have to go out of the camp.

“But Chikali had a guardian angel on Lesvos.”

He was determined to help him leave the island. Here is a volunteer. She said me, you will be not still here. Because my league is wounded. My prosthetic leg is broken.

You said no. You will be not still here.

Never I cannot forget it.

We got the papers to travel in the grass. Yeah, to travel in the grass. Yeah. And that way we got an ingredient in our tent. So Chikali and the family got the ferry to Athens.

Where again, they found themselves in yet another difficult living situation. We have a bad situation here. We are in the tents. That's very hard. Yeah.

In the Inofita camp. I remember. This camping Greece, Inofita, just outside of Athens, is where I first met Chikali. I met Chikali. I met a lot of people here, a lot of volunteers.

A lot of how it goes. Is this where you learn to speak English? Yeah, I get practicing in this near. But I forgot now. It's okay, no problem.

It's pretty impressive to me. Something truly heartbreaking happened to Chikali whilst living in this camping Greece. And I remember this day well. I lost my friend.

Did he drown? Is that what happened? I don't understand what happened to him. And they swam in like 7 o'clock or 7 p.m. 7 p.m.

7 p.m. 1 o'clock of the evening. I don't know how what happened to them. Chikali's friend Pelal had gone swimming in the sea on evening and drowned. Chikali explains how he was told the news

by the head of the camp. An American lady called Lisa Campbell. Not in O'clock. Someone is coming to say to me, Ali, Ali is coming. Lisa wants you.

I said, I wanted to sleep.

And then again, the people are coming. I want to go to there. I see Lisa come for the crying. I told them what happened.

“They said, after I don't understand what I am.”

They said, after I don't understand what I am. This tragedy was the trigger for Chikali to make the decision to leave Greece. Every word in the camp I see is something is from God. You see this face everywhere? Yeah.

Everywhere in the camp I see him. So I said no. I lived in Greece. Chikali's journey from Greece to Italy is one of the craziest parts of this story. He paid a smuggler 800 euros to help him hide underneath the truck.

I started with the smugglers. I gave 800 euros for the smugglers. They helped me to be under the truck of the Kanyan. Under the truck of the war? Kanyan.

Chilor. The truck. The truck. And the truck.

That's where I've seen a picture of you from, I think.

Yeah, exactly. For 36 hours. Oh my god. After 36 hours, Chikali rolled out from underneath the truck. When it stopped for petrol,

narrowly missing falling under its wheels as it drove away. In the petrol station. In the petrol station. Yeah, for petrol station. This is the tire of the car.

And I'm coming out. Just I turn it like this, the car is go. Oh my god. So it nearly ran you over. Exactly.

Just one second. Yeah, I don't turn it. I will be dead there. And then I coming out and I see, I'm black. These covered in, covered in, like, yeah, petrol, does.

Yeah, exactly. I can only hungry.

“You must have been so hungry and thirsty and tired.”

But these do the bad thing is, when I come in gear and the petrol station, he said, "Don't come in gear. Don't come in here." I said, "How are you, honey?" I said, "No, don't come in."

He told you not to come inside. Exactly. Why? I don't know. I'm the plah.

He's crazy all right.

Okay, so they just basically were scared of you or something.

Yeah. After Chikali was refused entry to the petrol station. He realised he was in the middle of nowhere and began walking towards some lights in the distance. I see the earth noting.

The earth is just a jungle. The earth is noting. And I walk for like six hours. I see the light. I know I follow the lights.

For six hours. Walking walking, walking, walking, walking. True o'clock of the night. Chikali finally found himself in a village with an open shop. But the shampoo biscuits and juice that he was able to buy

were not all they seemed. True o'clock of the night. I'm in the sun village in Italy. And then I found their shop. I have money.

Like 500 euros. I wash it like my hair. Everything like that. Again, that's not easy to do. Because I'm like...

Coffee.

“I find the shampoo and I think I'll be screwed”

something like this. Also I get the juice. And I drink the juice. I see that's the alcohol. Unless it should.

That's the last time of the shop. You close it. How cool. By accident. That's like grapes.

The grapes picture in the juice. It was grape juice. It was wine. That's wine. You need a pizza or some pasta.

Nothing is there. There is not that small village. And I ask from the people and there is... Where is the train station? Where is the train station?

They say go go go go go go. And there is the train station working 24 hours. Oh brilliant. Yeah. That's very cool.

Just at T-shirt. I have at T-shirt. Where did you get the train to? To Milan. Oh, you got the train to Milan.

Yeah. On the overnight train to Milan. She hardly noticed the other passengers in his cabin giving him some odd looks. I did the train.

And that's like a room. Your train is like a room. Six people is in the one room. Like a cabin. Like a cabin.

Exactly. After five hours six minutes, I'd slip.

It's okay. It's okay like this.

Oh, they were looking at you.

And after one stop, one station,

“and there is three other girls is coming.”

I look at them. I see them. They watch at me. What will look at me? What?

Who is this? Who is he? She hardly made it to Milan, where he spent the night in a refugee camp. In Milan, there's a couple who just can't find

a ticket to shower or everything. Oh, my God. You must have felt so good. Take some clothes from the shop and over the good clothes. So you found a refugee camp in Milan? In the night, yeah.

You can still do it for the night. She hardly took this opportunity to set out

what life was like for refugees in Italy.

I see the others, the people. Everybody ready for this is not done. For everything is not good. In Italy, that's public in. And I say, I will be with you friends.

I really like hearing friends.

“I've got a trend, but the trend is not working.”

Because the trade school is totally barred. And they ask me for the people. So Shikali decided to continue his journey to France. Whereas many of us could easily travel this route by train, Shikali didn't have the documents he needed.

So he was forced to use another smuggler. This one, however, took Shikali's money and did not deliver on his end of the deal. I'm talking with Smuggler, and I give him a 500 euros to help me to go to Lion.

Okay. And then he left me in the morning. He took the 500 euros. But he left me in the nice mountains. There I got not find the way.

He didn't take you to Lion. He just dropped you off. Exactly. It dropped me somewhere in the jungle. He said me another car will be coming here.

And I still deliver for five hours. And no one is coming for looking me. And then I walk, I walk, I walk, I walk, I walk. But I can't see the city. I don't have one euros with me.

“They take me from me and then he left me.”

So Shikali got on the train to Paris, but he faced still more challenges. Speaking this year, that's the good day. Yeah. I asked him, which train isn't for the Paris.

The control of the train is coming from me. I said to get, I said, I don't have a ticket. When I'm here at the Paris, already they call the police. When my friend is coming to look at me,

Jail like for four days. Your friend went to jail for four days. Just for coming to look for you. To look at me. To look at me.

To the station in the station. Guard Leon. Shikali's friend was arrested and imprisoned for four days. Just for waiting for Shikali here. But Shikali himself found a clever way around,

not being arrested for traveling without a ticket. Here's a you arrived at Guard Leon in Paris. And the police was already there waiting for you. Because you didn't have a ticket. So what did you do?

I said, I'm under the age. Ah, clever. And then they transform me somewhere. And there's like a house and a heating wagon. They give me the cloud.

Good, I got scared. The earth is there. Everything is good. But after Shikali told the truth about his age, he was left to defend himself on the streets of Paris. Here is a lot of difficulties. A lot of difficulties, a lot of problems.

I sell two months in the street. And I sell four and a half years for their people. That's very complete. So after you left that house with the unaccompanied minors. And because you said, you will have a 15 days.

Then you said, I'm actually, I'm not under age. Then you spent two months in the street. In a tent or... In the atent and under the bridge.

But Shikali had always been resourceful.

And he used the tools he had available to him to raise the awareness about his situation. And there, as I take a video a selfie video. And I said, I'm here. And here's our situation.

But the things I should might end. And then the volunteers coming for locking me. One half come guy. I mean, there is a two girls for locking you. Say, Ali will Ali.

And I said, here is a lot of Ali. He said, well, which one is don't have Ali? Yeah. Ali with one leg. Yeah.

And I said, yeah, that's one is me. And I said, that's one is me. And that half come guy. Said me, who are you?

No, are you not normal like others?

You thought you were famous or something? Yeah. Lots of people saw Shikali's video on social media and saw him out to do what they could to help him. It's from Nidurland, from Germany, from Canada,

from the United States, from England, from Greece, from Italy. They said, what do you need? I said, I don't need nothing. And then another girl, French girl, she helicopter to see the doctor for my leg

because of my leg. I have a problem for my leg. That's one did. And then I cannot walk it. Okay.

She helped me. She told me, yeah.

“No, she's one, and that's what he wanted.”

One did like a leg, leg, leg, leg. Something like this. Legion. Legion. Yes.

I cannot walk it. One of the volunteers gave Shikali a bed for a few nights and an opportunity to shower. She said, me coming with me in my house, with her boyfriend. And I still deal with her, and I take to do this for my other year.

Shower. Shower. And then I still sleep very good there for two, three. And then something happened that Shikali had been working towards his whole life. Yeah, after two months they gave me a room.

The French authorities, they give you a room. Yeah. And Shikali was able to breathe again, and begin integrating into life in France. Said the first and the important thing is to an other society. Another country is the wrong way.

“If I don't speak the language, I will never understand here.”

The culture or the everything here in the French society. Oh, I will be learning the French. I want to find some schools and something like that. How's your French doing? It's perfect.

It's a good idea. I don't think so. Not very perfect because French is what it is. What do you think is better? Your French or your English?

My French is a bit. Really? Your French is very good.

Then your French must be pretty amazing.

And she's very good. When I come here in France, I started to start learning French. I forgot a lot of words from me. Thank you. You were speaking French English.

You were speaking French English, and you were speaking French English. I started a big Indian. I didn't mean that.

“After one week, woman, Shikali and she said,”

"I find you have school for you." And then I started French language. After several months, I got my two diplomas. I find me to French society. That's when you started in French.

I started talking French. Can you say French? I would rather speak French. I speak French. I speak French.

I speak French. I speak French. I remember what he said, right? He anything that's possible. He likes the impossible.

That's so true.

Shikali's incredible story has a happy ending.

His life can now begin again. But not everyone has this same experience. A millions of asylum seekers are still on their journey to safety. Let's hear from Anne O'Rourke. We met her in the last episode when she took us on a tour of her community centre called Tiafi in Turkey.

But Anne has volunteered and worked in migration hotspots across Europe, and has lots of first-hand experience of just how difficult people's journeys can be. Anne shared with us the story of when her sister Lisa came out to meet her in Athens, and they headed to a particularly tricky border crossing at the time between Macedonia and Greece, despite their husbands' reservations.

My sister who loves this kind of work, she managed to get away from the kids and has been served to go to Athens, Lisa, but under no circumstances can you go up to the Macedonia border, because the time does all sorts of trouble at the Macedonia border, 14,000 refugees at that.

I measured the airport anyway. So I said, "I don't have courage." I just said, "Great." Both of us, she said to me, "Where are we going?" And I said, "There's the map back there, don't you?"

"Oh, yes!" She said, "Don't tell them." I said, "You don't tell them. I want to tell them." So we headed to the Macedonia border, and did loads of mapings, like loads of mistakes.

We had she collected some money and kind of, you know, bought a load of toys and stupid things,

like, people were on top of us.

We couldn't even get out of the car. We were jammed in the car. I'd stay with some people trying to grab things. And the Macedonia border was really... It was a very open and experienced, because there was 14,000 people there.

And they were hoping that the border was going to be open. And they were all wait, and I don't know if you've been to the Macedonia border. But you know, they were all waiting at that fence,

“basically at the time, that's what they were waiting.”

And then there was little violence, you know, and then there was other women by themselves, and tents. So, I remember, I at one stage, I had 500 euros left of my donation money. And I was there, and I was thinking, "What would you do with this money? That's going to make it worthwhile, you know?" So, I was thinking, "I mean, Mother was a great car player, you know?"

She was a carer, you know, and she was playing all the tournaments. I'm a grandmother, so I thought, "I know what I'll do." "I'd buy cards, you know?"

So, I went off and I bought like hundreds of packs of good cards.

And they play a game where you use the pen and paper and cards, you know? And then I started to strip it, you know? I give the money to the adult, sorry, to the men, and they should be, 'cause they were getting really crazy, they were so bored, you know? I remember one night I was walking through the place, it's over there.

And there was no lights, you know? It was kind of, you know, a start to get there. And then there was one tent, and there was like a family playing cards. And then there was a few kids over here playing cards. And then there was another family, the four families, and they were like, "Mot one another playing cards."

And then we ended up meeting a group from Holland, and we got together. And we did a thing where we bought these walk-a walk-a lamps. They were flat, flat, light, powered by the sun. To call it a little solar panel, at the back of it. We got something like 50-100.

And so walk-a walk. And then we went to all the women in the tents, particularly women by themselves, you know? And they all ended up with the lights. So we did all that sort of, and that was great.

Whilst Anne was at this border, she experienced some of the pretty extreme intimidation tactics used by the authorities in this region. I don't know if you were there any other version, but the experience where we were there one day.

“And the next month there's these fighter jets flying over, you know?”

I wasn't all full of that.

Oh, it was just awful. I never forget.

This flight, which is our next month of people are just going down, and they're letting these run beside me. She just went down and they're peep. And she was saying, "Oh my God, you know?" And then I was like, "What the hell is going on?"

You know? Everybody scream and the women are scream and everybody's running. And they all think it's, there's gone that they're out there coming to bum. Then they're coming to kill them, you know? And they land. And so just jump out of them, like you see in the films.

I have to feel I pictures of it. And we managed to get on to the Irish police, and I knew somebody that was out there. And I said, "What is going on? There's people are crying.

They're sick. They're vomiting." And he said, "He ain't contacting." The authorities, and they said it was an exercise. And I remember just saying, "It's the coolest thing I've ever seen." These and I ended up in the scene.

We were probably right. We shouldn't have probably gone. And they were shooting robber bullets from the Macedonia side. And again, I have all the pictures of the robber bullets, I have all the pictures of everything. And we were running around with milk and lemon.

You know, trying to get people. You know, their faces were all, you know? There was what you called the tear gas. The tear gas was all over the place. At least it got loads of it.

She was crying, crying. And there was kids roaring, everybody was roaring. And it was just, it was just minkly. And I kept staying to myself here in Europe and in European, and European, and Greece, and Greece, and Greece.

Only ever experienced Greece in the beginning, on a beach. You throw it down to no reason. Exactly. And you know, here, yeah, and Greece, and Greece, and Greece, you know, I had to keep reminding myself, I was in Greece.

But I thought to cruelty of it. The cruelty of it. And then, of course, there was no robber bullets used. I was, we had a war in the north of Ireland. You know, I know what a robber bullet is.

Unfortunately, what Anne is describing is not a unique situation. I've also personally seen similar tactics, such as tear gas, and pepper spray used against vulnerable people, living in camps, such as the Calle Jungle by the authorities there. Brace yourselves, because the next bit of this podcast

“gets dark, but I truly believe that the least that we can do”

from the comfort of our homes is to be aware that this is happening. Oh, there's terrible trouble with on the borders. I mean, the young boys, I get married or do you know? Yeah. We can react to it.

Don't worry. Just an article can just the other day of like women and children, like infants getting thrown into a bow or thrown into the water. Yeah, they do that. Yeah, they do that.

Yeah. Yeah, they do that. And also some of the traffickers who do it. If they say they're going out late in the night,

And it's particularly small babies if they start to cry.

“I've heard of stories where they have actually thrown them into the scene”

around them. There was one, also derived from two children, one new baby. And the trafficker threw the child, the new baby into the sea. And the father jumped him. The father drowned with the baby.

And the mother were the times she got to Greece. She was by herself with a nature old. And that was only a few weeks ago. So I find it difficult to go to Greece to go to the island. And so on a boat, you know, you know, the big boats.

I can't look down into the sea, you know. Because I just keep imagining, or the little bodies and sea. You know, when you go in a cross on this boat, takes an hour from cherish me. And you're looking down, you're thinking, "Oh, my God.

I've got to see a body in a minute." There's people in some of the islands. There's some great people in some of the islands that actually just take the bodies. And they bury them.

“And then they keep some of the belongings.”

And then they put them in kind of, you know, safe places. And then they might have a name. And then they would have a description. And then they keep the records where if somebody ever comes back.

That they can, they can maybe find the wife or they can find. Because we had situations in the islands where they'd start off with the family of four. But the time to go to the islands would be like, "Was one father and son left and the mother?" And the mother, and the mother that he got as well, not the drown.

And he cried for two days. And they just cried in the room for two days. And then the following day, they were on the big boat Athens. And they, you know, they had on the papers. And they were on the big boat.

They were gone to Athens. So the family, some were gone to Athens. And all he kept saying was, "I don't know where she is." Like, you know, like, "I don't know where she is." You know, she'd be just washed up somewhere.

"I don't know where they are." "What could you do? You had to just go like." You know? He knew she was under and she knew he knew the children. But he couldn't, he kept saying, "Where is she?"

You know, like, "I don't know where she is." You know, "I'm not what could we say to him." You know, she's in the sea somewhere. Like, "We don't know when will she be washed up anywhere?" You know?

Did she? Yeah, I mean, she was obviously drowned. But the body would be washed up with.

We could never know where she is, you know?

“So I think we've got a pretty good idea of how dangerous these journeys can be.”

Both from Shakali and Anne. But let's hear again from Susie. You might remember her from last week's episode, where she talked about life in Egypt, after leaving her country of Eratreia at 15.

Susie told me some of the dangers, particularly faced by women and girls on their journeys. Women's very bad, very bad from Ethiopia to Sudan. It was not that safe, you have scary. If it's scary, there is a lot of this might happen to your females.

Even if you don't have many, they think on one of them, they want for me to smile at us. You don't have many, but you have something. You need to do that. And if you don't pay, you be forced to do that.

Which is very to put yourself. If in bad situation or bad feeling. It's a difficult thing to say out loud. Susie is not the only woman who has told me this. If you don't have money, the smugglers will make you pay in other ways.

And many women and young girls arrive to their destinations pregnant as a result. Everything is scary. In the way you solve skeletons, people that I gave this. To do you cross through the Sahara, we are. But Susie has managed to successfully turn her horrifying experience into something positive.

She now works to support newly arriving refugees in Cairo and find strength and fulfilment in doing so. Now I'm growing up. I don't. But I imagine people are coming now, seeing that their story might not be the same. So it can be seen. So imagine how I'm feeling.

And the same things they are feeling, and the same things they are suffering. So when we accept new camera, we need to give them the emotional support. You need support if you're very, really, because no one was there for me. And they're for them. They're for them. I feel very comfortable with it. Competence.

Do I sister? Because if you better than somebody who experienced it, yes.

Finally, let's go back to a lovely Rashid in Cairo, who we heard from in episode 1 about why he left Somalia.

His journey was tumultuous and he was imprisoned along the way.

Here he told me about the kindness of a stranger who sat next to him.

“The seat was a parkman. He was sitting with me and the whole night.”

I dreamt he didn't. And he felt it. You know, I was seven days in prison. Even I didn't drink the water in the morning. The guy was sitting near to me. He'd buy some food. And he said, "It." And I said, "No, no, thank you."

He laughed. You didn't eat anything, doesn't he? He laughed. I realized this nice.

And just like I eat good lives, I can't know. I always feel hungry too.

And I drink the water. He gave me the water. I finish. He gave me another one. So I finish. He gave me three. And I finished.

I drink a lot of water. I said, "I can be blessed." He said, "Yeah, I can be blessed." So I said, "I'm from Somalia." I said, "I'm from Somalia." He said, "Okay. I'm hungry."

He put the judge in my room. I was sleeping in the hall night. And next day, I was sleeping in the hall night. I was so tired. I was so tired. I was so tired.

It was from his mum that Rashid drew the strength to continue his journey.

And from my mum she was always saying to me, "Yeah, it's okay to be sad.

It's okay to be alone. It's okay to be scary. But you don't need to give up. It's like, do whatever that you can. So I was doing everything. Okay. That's it.

When I do my performance, I feel like I'm full-hearted and full energy. Because I know she was very sick and she was working. They are mad. So when I just remember her,

I'm still 15 years old. My mum, she don't know when I talk to her. She's like, "She brought with me and she encouraged me a lot. And encouraged me for everything." When I speak to her, I was even crying.

But she encouraged me.

She was like saying nice word for me and just brave.

You can move this. You can move this. You can move this.

“You don't need to cry. You need to be sad.”

Rashid spoke about how difficult it was to actually make informed decisions about which route to take. Some people that travel Olivia, some people that travel for Egypt, it was very hard for me to select a decision. You're going to Libya or you're going to Egypt.

I tried to cross for the maternity. It's difficult today. The boys they give me, they catch me then. Go back to some people across and they got to Italy. So do you want them on the top?

Yeah, I would try even. I don't know. For Egypt. From Egypt. It was traveling Egypt too.

It's very far. It's very far. It's very far. Me and my friends with Rayman and Thomas, but we didn't even manage to cross them.

Some people that cross some people, they don't. A lot of people, they don't even. How many times did you try? For me, I try. Three times.

Are you scared then? This is so dangerous for you. I was afraid to answer. But also, I'm not so fearful. I give you to me.

I have to try something in the job. And that's it, right? You have to drive for something better. Life in Egypt is barely surviving. The hope for your future.

That seems to be the driving force behind these journeys. In this episode, we have explored the risks and challenges face as people cross land and see to find safety. Next week, we will be exploring pushbacks.

One of the biggest obstacles faced by asylum seekers along their journeys. That often sets them back days, weeks, months, and even years. It's a shocking, but very important episode to listen to. Thank you for listening to this episode of Asylum Speakers, The Journey. Brought to you in collaboration with Comic Relief

and Organizations funded through Comic Reliefs across borders program. You can find out how to support Comic Reliefs work at Comic Relief.com. To find out more about the people in today's show, check out the links in the show notes.

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[Music]

A big shout out to Alexander Wells at Alexander Wells.co.uk

“for our audio production and original score,”

and to airs stone for mixing this episode.