Part One: From Elliott Rodger to Clavicular: The Story of Incel Evolution

Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast that has just suffered yet

again the indigity of a major technical malfunction. >> And right at the point, the day after we got approval from Netflix to stream full video episodes worldwide. >> Mine is Korean, Vietnam, I'm so sorry, I have no idea why. >> Sorry, yes, I can't, I can't influence. Netflix policy in Vietnam, but at least we're on everywhere now.

>> We're on everywhere now, that's very on Vietnam. >> Except Vietnam. >> Yeah, except Korean Vietnam. Unfortunately, my hand is not working right, so we need the webcam on the laptop, which does not look as good, which will also not change how 90% of people experience this podcast, this is an audio medium.

“>> It's an audio medium. >> Why even attach visuals to it?”

>> To be fair, buddy, I think you look fine.

>> Thanks, so big. >> I think you look great. >> Kat, you know who looks great is our guest, Kat Abu. >> Kat, are you doing? >> Welcome back. >> I'm good, and now I've got my full government name, Kat. >> Oh, right. >> You're right, because you're running for Congress.

>> 'Cause I've ready for Congress. >> I have to call you something different now. >> Kat, you want to give a little PSA plug for the campaign up to? I would love to, hi everyone, I'm Kat, I'm running for Congress in the night district of Illinois. That goes from uptown Chicago up to Evanston, over to Skoki, all the way to Algonquin and Crystal Lake.

It is Jerry Mandert to Hell, and I'm trying to represent you, I am one of the top three

viable candidates in this race, Election Day is March 17th.

“I'm the only one of those three people that has not met with or submitted a position paper to APAC.”

We are the only campaign in this race funded by Spawn Dollar donations. I have a Kat named heater, she's orange, and yeah, that's kind of my thing. When I covered the far right as a researcher in journalist, you might have understood it before when my microphone was dog shit. >> Yes, now your microphone's better, and you're ready for Congress. >> And listen, I've Kat's my friend, and Sophie's my friend.

>> Our friend, okay, you can, you're also included, probably. >> I get to, I get to jink on there today. >> Yeah, Robert and I took so many shots of Mallort together at the onion party, it was like I bet I can do more than you. But I did, and see, only time I've ever even somewhat blacked out besides literally being drugged by someone unconsciously. >> That would be like drinking liquid bandage.

It was, it was awful. >> I'm just trying to get a spicy WD40. >> Yeah, that does prove your, your rightfulness for this thought that you're seeing as your ability to win the Mallort contest. >> That party was what, and then you were like, Sophie, come with me to the other bar and we drink something good. I don't remember what it was.

“It was like something, I remember, I think I had like five shots of Mallort.”

And then Ben took me and was, and just like a standard intro, it was, I remember, because it's so fucking funny. It's standard intro to me to people whose names I don't remember. This is Sophie, she's the future of the party, but he's trying to introduce so funny. >> So I also talk about you. >> Yeah, that's how I do too, huh?

>> And then he went, and then we went up to Chuck Snowd's John Lemon, and he's like, hi, John Lemon, this is Sophie, she's the future of the party. >> That was so great. >> I, let's get a picture together, I was like, this is all in you man. >> Yeah. >> I, I, I just really enjoyed, I really enjoyed Robert taking a picture of y'all of our young garrison with

John Lemon with full flat. >> Yeah, I forgot to turn it off. >> Look at the hand of that, there's a podcast where I talked about John Lemon. >> You're going to party with John Lemon and drink too much for Lord. >> And just fucking blind it is asked with my, I have one of these huge Chinese phones that look at the fucking flight on the back of this.

This, this thing's flash goes off like a federal flashbang, like Bortat guys don't have flashbangs. >> This it is, right, right, it's a little bit, normally I'm crying on this podcast because this is something in us, Robert is told me, but it's really. >> Oh, I'll, I'll make you cry, don't worry, we'll make sure before this is over, yes, anyway. >> It's got the right idea. >> Anyways, back to the job, really enjoyed memory lane though, I'm glad cats, I'm really glad cats here.

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“>> This is going to be a memory lane trip for Kat and me because Kat, you also spend a sizable chunk of the arts spending way too much time reading about incredibly online right wing maniacs, right?”

>> Yes, yes, I had. >> Yeah, so who are we talking about? >> Great question. >> If you, if you've kind of clavicular. >> Oh my fucking God, are we talking about clavicular today?

>> What kind of a bit, yes, today in tomorrow we'll talk about him a bit, we're explaining how you get from, you know, May 23rd, 2014, when Elliot Roger goes on his shooting spree and killing spree and I live as to California, which killed six and injured 14, and was like the first big insell mass murder event, right, and it's kind of the thing that put insells on the map, and I guess most of the audience, the first time you heard insell was in in the wake of that spree killing, right? Unless you were a very online weirdo prior to May 23rd, 2014, you probably hadn't heard of these people, but through a series of very unlikely and in some ways confusing events, this subculture that kind of comes on to everybody's radar and the wake of this mass murder has kind of led most recently and really just the last couple of weeks to a massive degree of fame and general internet amusement over this guy, clavicular, and there's a direct line between

like the first insells and the birth of the insell subculture to the looks maxing subculture, which is where you guys are.

Just passing your jaws with hammers. Yes, hitting your jaws with hammers, taking Methamphetamine to be hot, right, like all of that stuff. My first introduction to clavicular was a random TikTok where Logan Paul was talking about how unbelievably handsome this person is. I did not bother to look it up because I don't care who Logan Paul thinks is handsome, but now we're on behind the bastard talking about it, so it all makes sense. You're out to him in a second.

I want to describe just like in terms of, thank you so much for this topic, Robert, thrilled, and this is the exact fucked up shit I'm glad we get to dive into you. We have so well, but the most fascinating thing about insell culture is how so much of it is like this weird both hyper masculine and also like homerotic subtones of what they think like women want and it's like this like Chad with which is insell vernacular, by the way, that's like all buff and all this stuff when it's like, I don't know, I like my guy that runs the onion and makes me laugh.

Yeah. Well, it's also very astermaxing. Oh, that's just for Maxing, I'm so sorry, thank you, thank you. We've got a new term for that, thank God. But he's also just like he's a nice man. Yeah, women like why if in terms of being attractive to men, the vast majority just want you to like be a good person that's like not sexist or racist or homophobic or bad or transphobic, make them laugh and like I don't know close the dishwasher, which I don't do, so I need a guy to do that for me.

“Or if I was funny to me, because I too can't love reading insells like talk about like what you like all of the mountains you have to cross to get like a single date.”

Well, you have to make sure that like your face is no wider than this, but at least this wide and like your nose is like is positioned at this part of your face and your eyes are this far apart and like otherwise no one will ever love you whereas like living in the real world, you realize that it's mostly like.

And when you see like the stuff insells have talked themselves up into believing they need to do it's just like you really it really makes sense like why there's been so many killings out of this community because it's like oh yeah there's totally detached reality right. And that's what we're going to be talking about today how this group because what's interesting is not insells are crazy and it's not like oh wow clivicular you know the looks maxing subculture has its roots in the insell subculture it's how is the insell subculture been so influential because almost everyone I know every day uses words that like originally came out of the insell community and have now just become like.

“common genzy gen alpha internet slang right like that's kind of the strangest thing to be about this is despite how fringe and extreme and like toxic and scary the actual insell subculture is.”

They've also had this like incredible history of like shotgunting terms and concepts in the mass consciousness that's both like really surprising and kind of worrying and so that's that's kind of like what we'll be talking about this week.

Awesome and yeah also in a way that the right really struggles to penetrate pop culture but insell culture hasn't had that issue as much.

Yeah yeah it's it's moved like a fucking knife through butter yeah it's it's really been weird. So about a couple of weeks before I sat down to write these episodes on February 6th, 2026 this Twitter post that those of you with the video podcasts will see I'll read it to everybody else went viral reaching about 24.5 million people through Twitter zone unreliable counter but also spreading in screencapped form across every other type of social media I found it like.

“with something like 20,000 upvotes and read it you know just in one post like this is all over the place and you there's a good chance you've seen it's a post from some guy called chrome heart 600 and he writes.”

a particular was mid-gestergooning when a group of foids came and spiked his cortisol levels is ignoring the foids while munting and mugging moids more useful than smv chat fishing in the club. And that's just such like that's an insane series of words like it's completely impenetrable to people who have not spent way too much time online. it's like it's kind of enticing like you see this you know like what the fuck does that mean right like and so I've seen again once this hits you get a bunch of people online talking and dissecting all of these terms and then remixing them and taking terms like jestergooning and throwing them out in other circumstances.

not necessarily even knowing the original use of any of these words right and part of why this thing went as post went viral you know clavicular was already a very influential streamer and influencer when this post went viral otherwise it wouldn't have. it went viral not just because of his actual content but because the post itself was so seemingly absurd with so many new legends right that people didn't know that folks just found themselves compelled to spread it and make fun of it and by doing that.

some of these terms around and when you watch the attached video because that this includes a video of whatever is being described in that post of clavicular it doesn't make it a sense right like the video does not help you understand what those words say so if he's going to play it for you right now you'll hear the audio.

“but i don't know how much help that's going to be it's just like a guy who looks like a kind of normal young fret dude guy with it looks like a frat party there's a young woman in young men behind him.”

he's streaming on kick and then yeah so he's going to hit play and you'll hear what he says the caption is SMV Chad fishing in the club question is sexual market value and yeah Chad fishing is people are fishing someone's fishing for a chat they're talking about you do like Latin classes and you're dissecting the words and if you spent way too much time online or in right wing spaces you're able to like do like all of the etymology. yeah yeah you find you nomad of your genitive your date of accused of an outlet of right but and put it all in just weird terms freaks made up to talk about why they're not you know having sex on the internet.

yeah i mean not included.

because he's my Christina yank but i have never just liked men more than i haven't since the start of this year this is going to deeply be disturbing and point just you wait.

my friend likes your camera man. tell us your name is correct.

so i would describe that as a pretty normal guy trying to film in the middle of a frat party and some girls are making fun of him.

yeah it's jestergooting right they're jestergooting on it.

so i was trying to attract these these sorority girls by doing that. when the girls came up and they spiked as court as all levels they got them flustered and they believe that when you're court as all levels get spiked. you're testosterone production drops right. and so that's the gist of this right and then this later leads to him getting like mod on or kind of. uh... made the look sort of shitty by a much more buff.

uh... frat like leader right and that's kind of the the genesis of this whole.

“nonsense like that's what all of this terminology actually stands for.”

and. what's weird to me about this is just how much of the pieces of this because even if you didn't understand a lot of this you probably heard you may have heard the term foids because that's a common in cell term for women it means like femoids we have to humanizing women right.

you've heard the turn gooning probably uh... you may have heard some of these references to court as all levels are mocking like pieces of this.

um... have been spreading all of the internet for years and. what's weird to me is how widely in cell terminology has broken containment because you don't see this from most other weird internet subcultures even most extreme violent internet subcultures. when i think back to the time i spent reporting on like. h_n_ and these online neo-nautzy movement there's a couple of pieces of the term based. that's kind of spread out of those communities but there's not most of the words they use are still kind of nonsense to the average person.

whereas in cell terms seem to like.

“every couple of years you get like a new font of them washing into the culture.”

so why is that or mean yeah or me like the wojax exactly we'll talk about that in a bit. so i want to talk about why that shit is happening. and it may seem weird to some people that because like cloveicular is traditionally handsome guy we could say. right like if you just see that dude on the street you wouldn't be like oh that's an in cell looking dude right you've been like. that's just a guy right.

i'm late my drink uncovered around and of course not there's nothing to do with that. that's the jester good thing.

but half of this guy's videos like content is like videos of him hanging out with Andrew Tate and Florida clubs and they're always surrounded by women.

that doesn't seem like someone who should have any relation to the in cell community based on like what in cells are famous for which is not. hanging out in clubs surrounded by sorority girls right. so how did this happen like how do we go from a bunch of online weirdos who are like so upset at the fact that like women don't behave the way they want them to that they're doing mass killings. to this guy who's like famous for being handsome and hitting himself in the face with a hammer like going to frat parties and having impenetrable internet diamonds.

but that would be a hammer. yeah you don't have a bone smashing i mean i do i just like did everything i could not to to to look into this person because i just simply don't care about men but here we are. so how and why that all happened is the story we're going to tell this week and to tell that story we got to go back to nineteen ninety seven in the place where all great evil begins. canada. no that's actually very unfair.

it's in and it's unfair to the very first in cells because the phrase involuntary sell a bit originates from a Canadian student named alana and she seems to prefer based on the stuff i've read not giving a last name.

“my understanding is that very young person obviously i think she was somewhere on the l_g_p_t_q_ spectrum and because she's a young person kind of living out in a dot huge heavily inhabited part of Canada.”

she's having a lot of trouble finding people right like a fairly not especially in nineteen ninety seven a fairly normal experience for a ton of people. and so as a result she finds herself like involuntarily sell a bit and in other words she can't like find any people that she has this like she she feels like in common with that she feels she can be open with about who she is. she doesn't know how to start those conversation she's a self-described late bloomer and she just starts thinking like well maybe other people are going through this and maybe the internet can be a way for us to kind of bridge some of the gaps between us.

i found an article on her with the BBC and quote. I thought maybe there are other late loomers out there i noticed people talk about the lonely virgin and makes silly jokes about people who didn't start dating in their teens. she rightly felt like this was messed up and wanted to create a place where she and other people struggling with sex and relationships could commiserate since it was nineteen ninety seven she created a website and named it alana's involuntary celibate project. so that's that's sort of the origin point of all of this stuff and it's perfectly been all like it's perfectly harmless a lot of not doing anything wrong she's trying to connect with other young awkward people who are trying to figure out life.

she described her form is a friendly place and it was a place for that both men and women frequented and they would go there and they could talk about being lonely and they could.

right that is a big part of this story is how the women completely edged out of this community and of this like concept and it turns much more toxic as a result.

“because when it is mixed gender when it's allana you know and and a bunch of like when it's a bunch of men and women on this form the purpose is not to hate on people for not dating the purposes to figure out.”

what do we need to do different in order to change this thing about our lives right which is a reasonable thing to ask. she recalled there was probably a bit of anger and some women were clue a bit clueless about how men are unique human individuals but in general it was a supportive place so even then there were some signs that like some of these guys seem to be surprised that like women have feelings. that that and she's noticing this right and that's kind of weird but a couple one couple who meets on the site gets married and people get better there including alana and in fact.

she's a couple of times stops being involuntarily sell it she finds people she starts dating she moves on with her life and to be entirely fair to her she is not the origin of the term in sell she comes up with the term involuntary sell it but her preferred abbreviation was in the cell i and v cell. which was never gonna go viral the way in sell had it's hard to say it's hard to say and then unnamed member of the community suggested in sell might flow better off the tongue the term originally referred to people of any gender right like it was not specifically just for angry young men.

“so again a couple of after couple years of this alana's life changes she starts meeting people and dating and she leaves the community she'd started around the turn of the millennium.”

the website she'd built in the community on it wound down but the term in sell stayed in use and it kept on being adopted by people who well.

they wanted to have sex but they weren't having sex right like that's kind of the whole deal over time being online stopped being a thing only nerds did and started becoming the norm as more and more people started communicating the internet some of them like alana became aware of the fact that there were a lot of young people who wanted to have sex but weren't right there's still a lot of these lonely versions out there and that this is actually a sizable community of people online and some of the folks who have this realization here cash register sounds.

in their ears and this is where enter the pick up artists community right I yeah there's that good that good far right we might move in free history. please a love a good pick up artists oh yeah give me condescension women love it. we're going to give you something slightly different I thought I was going to start by reading you some old pick up artistry stuff and you we both like wow it's fucked up how crazy.

“and and bigoted this old pick up artistry book is I had the opposite experience.”

So pick up artists started out well before the internet right this is not a thing I've asked a couple of different friends going into this when do you think pick up artistry got started as like a social you know movement or grift or whatever you want to call it and everyone guessed like the nineties. can I guess but the yeah yeah yeah please should call the world fair. it just feels like it'd be a thing there you know it's like everyone could also I had to get a woman. yeah yeah introducing the concept of women especially cago world fair next to the light booth.

Pick up artistry does predate the internet though you're not that far off is the crazy thing. the official birth of pickup artistry as a concept was the book how to pick up girls by Eric Weber published in 1968. So this actually does not that long after the world's fair. I was pretty awesome I feel that Robert. I thought you did the best you did the best I'll say that you're you're you're the best at this.

So today that book is so obscure that Wikipedia if you'd like look that title up they just have a full page for the movie inspired by the book that came out in 1978 and started desi artist. I'm gonna have to read that or watch that fucker at some point. But Weber's book was a best seller and you can still find copies full copies of it for free online which is how I came across the cover and and look at this thing. Look at this it's a the top is how to pick up girls by Eric Weber and then there's a picture of like 10 young women all kind of posing together and then underneath the picture is featuring interviews with 25 beautiful girls.

Incredible.

Incredible all of their arts are across none of them are smiling and they're all traditionally then got it.

Yeah, they have angry smiles. I'd say it's a new internet enemy terror base would say they're smiling.

Now when I saw this cover was like, oh yeah, we're I'm going to find a couple of quotes about this that there's the worst thing any of us has ever read and that's not what happened.

“I wasn't really planning to do like much more than reference this book because I wanted to focus most on the online community, but right in the intro something did kind of strike me right and this part is cut pretty gross.”

Weber opens the book by describing a little tragedy that has happened to most men. You're walking down the street and you see a beautiful I'm going to say you see a beautiful woman Weber uses the term girl exclusively because it is 1968. Awesome, you see this person, but you don't actually say anything to them and then she like walks by and you never see them again and you have this like horrified this is how he describes it should I throw myself at her feet and promise my saving her my savings account my car even my brand new golf clubs or should I just grab her long golden locks and drag her off into the sunset.

So this is written in 1960.

“You know please do not grab her by the long golden locks also also don't offer your fucking golf clubs I don't want your golf.”

I don't want your go and take your savings account. Yeah, even then even then I got my own don't need it. That's super gross, but if you recall it from the title the premise of this book is that he's interviewed 25 beautiful girls right and he makes it clear these are he's interviewed 25 young women who are singing. Young women who are single and most of the book is him giving quotes that they give about what they want in like a man or what they want when someone's like picking them up or like what they find attractive when someone's flirting with them.

And so surprisingly as gross and as very 60s as this is it's a thousand times more woke than any modern in soul or pick up artist shit because the basic premise of webbers book is that if you want to be attractive to women you should learn what women want what women want matters women like dating to and it's fine to ask them out but you need to understand what they want from you otherwise they won't be in view that is so far advanced. From modern pickup artistry and in soul culture it feels like a different world and I shouldn't be looking at this 1960 book we talked about knocking a woman out and be like wow this is so much better than not like modern.

But it does treat women like human beings with actual individual wants and which isn't true by the way. We're all lost yeah boys to use the current parlance. And then there's moids for men too don't worry folks they've got they've got more than one term. And it's interesting that that sort of the first work on it but obviously over time things get more and more deranged and in the early 2000s Neil Strauss goes undercover in the pickup artist community that has popped up in the early 2000s and kind of come out of the late 90s and he writes a 2005 best selling book called the game.

And he's talking about all these crazy tactics right that that guys have invented stuff like nagging you know basically where you're kind of insulting or mocking a woman to try to make her like want to get your affection. That's like peacocking where you're dressing like crazy you know and wearing like ridiculous fadoras with literal feet peacock feathers because like look all the matters as you you know if you if you get noticed right and that's so different because Weber is literally quoting women saying stuff like I like it when a man just like talks to me and tells me what he wants.

“Whereas by the 21st century these guys like no no no you have to like you have to you have to activate the back portion of her brain response to color in the way of like an animal on the serengetty but we're there's in the back of your head.”

Other wife you'll never find love.

You won't stand a chance out there. In other words Weber's 21st century descendants describe women is like enemies in a video game they're basically mindless automotons that you can hack via the right series of inputs. And that is the first major shift that we get that makes the in cell community possible is this shift from well I'm a gross man and I'll joke about not going to lady out but fundamentally I want to know what women want.

Where and by the time you hit 2005 or so women don't want things women respond to inputs like a video game right that's the big first shift that we have to make before we can get to in cell.

And I think that's an important point. Yeah, it's gross, but this is also you know a big part of where terms like alpha come from right like early pickup artistry starts reintroducing that concept which is based on a misunderstanding of how wolves work right. And that's all of like pickup artistry is a bunch of hacks and cognitive tricks and like psychological phenomena that is supposed to work for these kind of elaborate contrived reasons they come up with.

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Watch live next Monday at 8 p.m. Eastern 5 p.m pacific free. We'll see if eeps dot com or the beeps app. We're back. I hope it was the Portland police bureau again. I was so tickled to see them advertising on par show Sophie.

I was not and got it removed immediately. Anyway, I wanted I just wanted their money. Look, they're going to spin it on more tear gas if we don't take it. That's fair. I'm sure those are different budgets.

So that's a different piano. That's a different piano. Maybe I'll have a nice advertised on here. No, I was doing like Spotify advertisements. No, Washington State Highway Patrol, but not I said no.

No, we never got fortunately.

We, you know, and it. We've never had ice, ice ads because if we did somebody would. People would have told me. Yeah, but we, yeah, and then I would have freaked out and got that removed immediately. But no.

We didn't have to jump up and see no ads. So it used to be the most common ones I got when I listened to them in the box. Or like gold ads for literal gold and things like that. But yeah, let's just like Alex Jones. Yeah, that's right.

Just like Alex Jones. Well, I don't have my own brand of supplements yet. Yes. But that's well. If you want to send me $50 and just take a fatal dose of vitamin B12 and caffeine.

We can call that break my brain force.

“I would totally sell like mineral sunscreen.”

You're just telling, selling five shots of a Lord. Yeah, five shots of a Lord. Little power you through anything. Including talking to Tom. Tom was drinking so many strays in the spot.

Yeah, sorry, Tom. Yeah, like, look after the way he's had to deal with this year. Don, lemon, we're good. Do you want me to use five? Yeah, we're fine, Tom.

Don. Sorry, that should happen to you. I get it. Yeah, it sucks. Why?

Yeah, the first and second generation of pickup artists make a lot of money.

You know, these guys are for a couple of years. Very successful and like early internet famous. So they got this kind of brief period of prominence. And it fades rapidly for a couple reasons. The biggest one is that once pickup artistry becomes like famous.

And like, regular people start to read what these guys are saying. Like what they're talking about in these lectures and clinics that they're giving and like what they believe about dating. They make fun of it because it's silly, right? Like most people who hear about all this shit are like, well, that's ridiculous.

“Yeah, and when you add that to the fact that none of this stuff works, right?”

Like if you're otherwise handsome and you dress up ridiculously and go to the club. Sure, like maybe you'll have good luck or like if you're really charismatic. And also dressing like a crazy person. Again, maybe stuff will work out for you. But if you're the kind of person who's paying that guy to tell you how to wear a fedora.

It's probably not going to work for you, right? But wait, it's not a fedora. This is given gotten so much hate for actual fedoras, which still look cool as hell. That's an Indiana Jones hat. It's not the same shit that Nick Beards wear.

I just want to be clear. My grandfather used to wear a fedora every single day. He looked cool as hell. He was buried with it. And I don't want them to catch these trees.

Finally, you listen to that folks online. Cat is standing up for the fedora. You know, I'm setting history. We have an arm across the aisle.

The doors have always been left discoded.

You can't tell me anything different. That's fair. That's fair. It's the true be. It's the damn true be we got to tell you.

The damn true be. The boomeray. Or like the horseshoe we got here. Fuck it. Yeah.

Yeah. So again, most of the stuff doesn't work for most of the men who get interested and who are spending money on this. And when you're selling a solution to a problem that doesn't work, people will eventually realize they've been ripped off. You can only convince somebody to go pay $1,000 or $5,000 for so many coaching sessions

on how to pick up women and have them like not get any dates because you basically

taught them to run around dressed like a maniac cursing at women. And that does not work. They'll realize that you're screwing them, right? That you've lied to them and that none of this stuff is real. And this brings us to the website Puehate.com.

Puehate stands for Pickup Artist Hate. It was launched in 2009 by several disaffected members of the Pickup Artist community. These were not people who had offered coaching classes.

“But these were people who were paying for them, right?”

And they had gotten fed up and realized they'd been taking advantage of. So they started this website and they announced their new forum. I found like in the way back machine, the very first like page on that website was like a this new forum will be up Sunday or sooner thing with a spatter of blood underneath it, right? Before the forums active, like that's the little header that they put on the internet

to like tell people that it's coming. Which like at the time, maybe you would have noticed there were a lot of websites that young men and gamers use that would just have random blood spatters on them. You know, in the early 2000s, a lot of forums did shit like this. But given what comes out of Puehate.com, it's hard not to see it as like this kind of

foreboding message about what was coming later. Now, per the way back machine, the actual forum launches a couple of days later in late 2009. And the landing page features a common jpeg of a man in a suit flipping the bird and then a content warning that says adult content and not say for work, you know, don't view this if you're under 21.

And you have the option to enter the forum or leave the website. Those who chose the inter saw an advertisement for the very curkey radio show, which was a I think now to fucked podcast that mocked the seduction community, which was what pick up artist fans had branded themselves. The first actual saved copy of the forum itself I found is from 2011.

And at that point, it's toxic, but it's not a guy is going to go on a killing spree toxic, right? It's like young men on the internet, normal toxic. Most of the posts are like, people shit talking different pick up artists or linking other articles where people reveal, you know, uncomfortable or embarrassing details from like famous

But even at this early stage, you could see some signs that community members were branching out

from insulting seduction influencers to trying to puzzle out the mysteries of women. There are threads on hypnotic dating, which I'll have to look into at some points. There's a thread on it. It's how and why. Love has a crazy.

Yeah, great stuff. And there's also a thread counting down the days until mysteries daughter turns 18, which was, again, it's gross, but like that was a huge thing on the internet for Mary Kate and Ashley Olson. So it's not new either, right?

No, and it's still happening.

“I'm thinking of like, when the cash me outside girl bad baby, I think it's her stage name”

turned 18.

There was like a countdown to her posting on only fans.

And she like made millions and dollars in one day, which was just disturbing on so many levels. I never heard of that. Yeah, great. Great. It was a bummer.

Yeah. Speaking of things that will disappoint you. Yeah, he's it. Hi. This is Jill Winterstein, host of the spirit daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology,

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Watch live next Monday at 8 p.m. Eastern 5 p.m. Pacific Free. Itfeeps.com or the Veeps app. And we're back. So, in short, this the early 2011, the pickup artist hate forum is gross, and a lot of stuff that's really toxic,

but nothing that's like crazy for the internet. And nothing that would have like really stood out. There weren't really extremism researchers, trawling the internet in the same way that there have been, you know, for the last 10 years or so back then,

ahead of the others by that point in time that I'm seeing at least.

But over the coming months and years, pickup artist hate evolved into one of the most extreme storehouses for misogynistic content on the internet. And this happens for a couple of reasons. For one, the early 2000s also see the rise of the men's rights movement.

This happens alongside pickup artistry. And a lot of men's rights activists are either former pickup artists or like other people who are kind of dissatisfied with what they actually get out of pickup artistry. The MRA toxic subculture starts with these,

it starts with a lot of complaints about on the surface what seem like reasonable issues. Like guys, if they're giving you the elevator pitch for men's rights, would be like, well, you know, single fathers have all of these

“different legal problems if they're trying to pursue custody, right?”

And some people would be like, oh, well, maybe they're talking about a real issue. All this stuff is just a cover for hating women.

And wanted to take away women's rights.

Like if you actually get into what these people are saying, it's not, I want to be treated more fairly by the courts. It's, I don't think women should have check books, and I don't think my wife should have been able to leave me, right? Fantasies of violence and murder are common with MRA content

and around the same time. So this is bubbling up through the early 2000s into the odds. And at the same time, the Insel community has kept evolving, right? After 1997, it's continued to change, you know, a lot of leaves around 2000.

And so per an article published in the Journal of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute by the 2000s, Insel's began to inhabit spin-off forums, such as love shy and Insel support. Love shy, with a more relaxed content moderation policy, began to house the more extreme elements of the growing movement.

And a lot of had noticed from the start that there were some men who didn't seem to realize that women were people, that becomes more common. But now that there's not any moderation on these forums that have descended from hers, no one's pushing back.

And over time, the women who might have found themselves drawn in the same way that a lot of was to communities like this. And we're just looking for a place where they could commiserate on, well, it's kind of hard to find a date. I don't know how to do this.

I would like some advice. They stop showing up because all these places I've been colonized by these incredibly toxic angry young men, right? And a bunch of those angry young men, include an end a bunch of MRAs,

all start finding PUA hate.com, right? And they start posting on there, and they start becoming increasingly radicalized. I don't think we have a great understanding of why, but even though there's a couple of different groups

that kind of come in to PUA hate.com, they all start adopting the term in cell for themselves. That becomes extremely popular on the forum. Per the Guardian, it became a place where sexually frustrated men could go to Vint and share pseudo-scientific theories about women.

“And that's the other really important thing, right?”

Is that these guys aren't just complaining, no one will date me, they're developing an ideology. And they're developing a glossary of terms, all of which will work together to explain their theories for why women don't like them, right?

That's what they start really focusing on. It stops being, "How can I do better? How can I change? How can I like have a more success in love?" And starts being more about,

"What is it that's fundamentally wrong about how women are hardwired? And about how human civilization is constructed that has made this situation so unfair for me because it's obviously not my fault, right?

That becomes the overwhelming drive here. So they start cutting up all of human society into three groups. There's alphas, right? And the male alphas are chads,

and the female equivalent are stasis. And these are the beautiful people, right? These are your celebrities, these are your hoties. These are the folks that in cell terminology, everybody wants to get with.

I don't think I've ever heard of these before. It was really weird. It's the hoties. What do you want me to say? That's you're going to let me know.

I want you to let me know. I just really want you to say certified baddies, please. No, no, none of these people are certified. Please be ready for Congress. Could you please say certified baddies?

Certified baddies. Yeah. It was good. Thank you. So it's great.

You got your alphas up at the top. That's a tiny percentage of the population. Most people are baddies. That's normal people, right? Now, in the, in, in cell ideology is very rock paper scissors.

It's very hard line and very rock paper scissors. So when the, in the, they're evolving understanding of the world, alphas get to fuck other alphas, obviously, but also any alpha has the ability to sleep with any beta that they want. And obviously, no beta would ever say no to an alpha.

Meanwhile, the third and lowest,

“and also beta's get to partner up with each other, at least, right?”

So at least they're not lonely. The third and lowest category and the most oppressed people in society, the most oppressed people in all of human history,

AKA the members of the P2A hate community, right?

They basically in the space of a year or two,

fashion to cosmology in which they are the victims of history, right? It's so convenient how that works out. It's great. It's way better than taking ownership of your own fuckups. I need to get some of that right now.

The fact that like earlier today when I was trying to clean the house, I realized that I hadn't cleaned all week, and I've got like three hours of work ahead of me. That's got to be someone else's fault, right? That's got to have been like written into the stars.

That my house would be messy. It's not my fault that my house is messy. I didn't make the mess. The mess exists. As Jordan Peterson would say,

make your bed. [laughter] Almost the last time you made your bed, Robert Evans. I built a bed once. Okay.

That wasn't the question. [laughter] It wasn't a good bed. [laughter] So, once you have these categories,

once you've come up with, you've decided these are the categories, all people fit into.

“You have to have an explanation for why these categories exist”

in the first place, right?

It kind of begs the question. So the insel start posting pictures of themselves and of each other, right? And they start posting pictures of people that they think are chads and alphas

to try and suss out the rules behind who is attractive enough to find love. And they come across a real term in mathematics and an art called the Golden Ratio. I'm sure most people know what the Golden Ratio is, right?

It's a term that explains this particular set of proportions we see over and over again in natural objects like snail shells, but also people seem to find this basic visual harmony that is created by the Golden Ratio pleasant. And so you see evidence of the Golden Ratio

all across human art and great architecture and fine art like the Mona Lisa. The Golden Ratio is all over the fucking place. It's a real observed phenomenon, right? And all it means is that, like,

for whatever reason we find certain kind of proportions more attractive and pleasing to our eyes, right? What insels take from this is that attractiveness. And attractiveness is directly and 100% correlated with the ability to be loved, right?

Being loved has nothing to do with anything, but how hot you are, right? And attractiveness is something you are born with or not. It's not something you can develop over time by being cool. If somebody's not conventionally attractive,

they will never find love, you know?

And if that's the case, like, then it's not my fault that I'm alone, right? If I could change how I present myself to the world, if I could change how I introduced myself to people, if I could alter and learn things and like grow as a person,

and maybe I will through that process meet people and have friends and companions and find love one day. If that's possible, then the fact that I'm not currently doing it is my fault. And I don't want to accept that. So it's just the fact my nose is not the right size.

So I'll never be loved, right? You see how it's so nice that it's been fucked up.

“And yeah, that's what they take from the fucking golden ratio, right?”

If your bone structure doesn't fit the golden ratio, you're screwed forever, and that means nothing is my fault. So over the course of the next couple of years, let's say crude leaf from like 2009 to 2013, they work out this categorization system, which is called the PSL scale.

And they use it to kind of objectively evaluate attractiveness on a scale of 1 to 10. Now, fucking people have forever been using a 1 to 10 scale to evaluate like how attractive people are, right? I've been a high school we were using terms like that.

So this isn't new. What's new is that the insults have come up with like a scale that they're pretending has scientific rigor to it, right? So Jack, it is the only thing that matters. Exactly.

As opposed to like this guy you bought weed from in college, be alive, oh man, that guy's a nine or whatever, right? Like that doesn't work. It's got to be scientific. So the name for the PSL scale comes from the three forms

where insult ideology is developing and spreading during this time. There's PUA hate, of course, which helps to spawn slut hate, and I probably don't have to explain what's going on there, and then the last of the side. It's so interesting that PUA hate is about not being like,

it's not like, oh, we hate pickup artists, but slut hate is we hate sluts. Right. Well, then you hate pickup artists. But if you, yeah, but like not the same way. Not the same way.

It's very different. And if you hate sluts, we're not friends. Yes. Well, those slut hate, and then the last one is lookism, right? So it's PSL is PUA hate slut hate and lookism.

That's where the name of the scale comes from, right? And we'll talk about the concept of lookism,

“because that's what leads us to looks maxing in a little bit.”

But the PSL scale comes along with this kind of

for facial features primarily.

And I found a quote from an article in The Viewer by Maya Gelhog and Isabelle Lee that gives an overview of this. Quote, different physical traits impact the PSL rating someone receives. A weak jaw, for example, makes a man a two out of ten, while a negative can'tful tilt or downward slanted eyes

repels universally, both characteristics along with many more are considered unmasculent by the Insel community. They signify weakness and low SMV or sexual market value. The primary measure of an individual's worth according to an Insel. And I don't think this gets enough attention.

There's some like toxic capitalism baked into Insel ideology, which is the idea that like living as an objective sexual market value. Mark it value. Mark it value. Mark it value.

Can I just say I hate the fact that all of these terms are not new to me? No. I hate the fact that I've been so steeped in the far right. I've covered the far right that I'm like, oh yeah, this all made. Like this is not a new language.

This is an inherent one. I know I'm like, I unfortunately, you know so much about the Manus fear from the work that I've done that I'm just like, oh God. No one wants to know this stuff. The stuff is so.

“And this is why you should elect me to Congress,”

because actually no job part of it is like so much of this influences the Republican Party now, which is what we're going to get into. Yep. But like this is the basis of when you're taking bad faith arguments and good faith of like the male loneliness epidemic.

Right. And it's like, okay, so what are we doing about that?

Is it creating third spaces?

This is an ensuring that people have their material needs met. Is it making sure that we aren't punishing vulnerability and encouraging, like a feminist outlook that treats men and women as equals, including men. Like, men deserve that too.

No, okay. It's we're part of that. We're just going to keep taking rights to women. It's a movement. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, it's, again, this is like Nick Funtez thought now, where it's like the government needs to ensure that every man gets a woman. Right. Like that is where this leads.

And it's not, it's not quite the Republican Party platform now. But it will be. You know. It's getting there. They're getting there.

So the term for this whole idea of like ranking people and using all these, all these kind of incredibly obscure and nuanced terms for different weird little facial features. That's lookism, right? And it's the name both of an online community and a broader name for this general concept of ranking people's SMV. Now, evolving in self theory does allow for the possibility of people dating

“or marrying outside of their sexual market value or their level of attractiveness, right?”

But in their view, the only men who get to do this are like crazy rich guys, right? Like if you may even come a billionaire, then it doesn't matter if you're a slubby dude. You can date, you know, you can date the stasis because they want, you know, your money as a rich guy. And that's part of what pisses off the insults is that women have the unfair advantage of being able to date out of their league way more often than men do.

Ugly poor men never date out of their league, right?

But, you know, women get to do it all of the time for reasons that are based. And the reason they believe this, I will say, is based 100% of the fact that they've never talked to women, right? Like they don't know women who are frustrated because they can't find a date. They don't know women who find it gross when a guy just tries to like buy their way into their affection because they don't know any women. They just assume all of the hot girls are engaged in a hypergamy, right?

And like the women they share with women that they're not attracted to, which is very rarely like any woman. I mean, there's the idea that a lot of, you know, like, so I said, why do you see worth in just the women that they would ever eventually have sex with? And when they, in cells, they see women in general and for most of them can see an opportunity there because women are so objectified because like we can put our makeup on and like the average woman looks a lot more dolled up than the average man.

And so, but if you showed them a woman that they're not sexually attracted to, all they do is say they most vile to them. Somehow even more vile than the rape and death threats so many other women have gotten from in cells. It's so fucking disgusting. It's disgusting and it's also super self-defeated because a lot of these guys are just gross monsters that I don't have any sympathy for. And a lot of them are like teenage boys who aren't destined to fall into something like that forever and you'll see on these forms was really heartbreaking kind of lurking in them for me would be to see a guy be like, hey, I actually had a really good experience with a girl in my school today and I think we might go out of date.

“And then like a million guys post that's cop cop she hates you she hates you she doesn't like you you fucked it up give up now man you should just kill yourself right like literally how the community works.”

We're doing some work looking into brain cells which was once the insel subreddit got banned brain cells the talk of the other one. But one of the mods there when I was sorting by new which I would do every day and want to put an icepick through my brain because of it.

Like say on like what what are you into like let's talk there's way better stuff in life I promise and then he looked at my account and realized I was a woman and then like said something very like.

Sad and then just never stopped applying and so I DM to the mods of the brain cell community and they were like you fucking bitch you can't blah blah blah blah like just completely ignored everything I said and then two weeks later they finally realized that he was dead and they had noticed for two weeks. Oh my god. Yeah it's heartbreaking what this does to to people in it. It's horrific. Yeah. Yeah you're I'm making a hat I'm hoping I'll finish the hat by the end of the podcast.

“But no like that's that's what gets me every time.”

About the people both about these communities about the people who like professionally have to analyze them as there's always so much concern from the researchers I've known about when they see like oh I think this person might actually harm themselves. And none of that within the community. None of that kind of it's kind of a win because that person didn't escape if they killed themselves they haven't gotten out there's still an insult right. I mean I hope that they they fucking just logged off and was like like I hope that's what happened and but like they never heard back from him and it was like there was also all of this infighting in there being like he was weak for killing himself then or it was good that he killed himself because there's no reason to live while you're in in cell.

It's so fucking disgusting and based on that guy's post he could have been older than like 19.

“Yeah, it's fucking yeah it's sad and it's like this is happening and this is I want to note because we will talk about the dangers algorithms play in all of this this is all pre algorithmic harm not that there are algorithms in social media in 2013.”

But that's not really affecting the growth of the in cell subculture at this stage these people are meeting on forums that don't really people are finding this organically right. You're not being swallowed this kind of content for the most part from like an algorithm at this stage right that's not yet a factor. So the fact that like the insult hate and this belief that like women are hypergamous right and sometimes this is like insults really hate polyamorous people for the same reason that like oh it's a couple of chads hog and all the stasis right.

We could just say polyamorous people just for fun you know you could just do that anyway people have been doing it for forever. But this is all coached again it has to be this can't just be I just don't like this stuff and I'm a dick there's be like evolutionary justification for it right and so the justification they come up with is will women are programmed by evolution to seek the strongest provider for their future children which all women want to have obviously I know I've talked to them.

“In the meantime before they have those kids women don't have souls and thus feel nothing about sleeping around and breaking men's hearts right they'll just go for whoever has the most money.”

They'll try to fuck all the the chads while they can and then they'll settle for a beta with cash. Is that in Scientology where your baby like the baby's soul is it is.

The answer is yes it is yes and you bet your ass I've listened to the L. Ron Hubbard episodes five times yeah I won't say much more than this but there are some people who believe that when

If like a relative of yours dies you can adopt a baby and someone that person's soul into the new baby and raise them as that person. Scientology it's cool. I miss talking about Scientology I would so much rather do that than show you the JPEG I'm about to show you. This is commonly passed around and look is in space and it illustrates the phenomenon I'm talking about right on one side you have two sides of this image one is like nineteen fifty five one is two thousand fifteen. And they show on one side of the image a bunch of men and on the other a bunch of women right and they're ranked from like boring and ugly at the bottom to interesting and good looking at the top and in nineteen fifty five.

Oh yeah be interesting and ugly or boring and looking right right it never has happened never once in life dating a video simply did not exist.

I'm not holding up ugly the in cells would right. But they're saying in nineteen five all of the all of the ugly women and all the ugly men got together and all of the medium attractiveness men and women got together and all the hot men and hot women got together but everyone had somebody right. But in two thousand fifteen thanks to feminism in the internet all of like the chicks above the the bottom twenty percent of hotness are going to the top like two or three percent of men right and there's no men for the yes.

Those back it's exactly what I was saying at the bottom there are like two different women that aren't going for anyone they're just at the bottom and then they're also meant the same exact rank and on the bottom and for some reason they're like no.

Yeah, they're they're not great at like doing their hair or dressing up or even showering every day but they're really nice and they're really nice intellectually like interesting funny gentlemen hello they can build a house on their own and they don't have their assholes.

“I like to refer to the guy that did so many steroids he I thought about it after like two months of dating and I was like oh yeah that makes sense and then we broke up yeah.”

It didn't do anything for me I was honestly like it's a little bit like you seem a little too into how big your arms are like this seems like it for you and like in that case like that's fine it's like you know putting makeup on for yourself but like. This idea of what a masculine man is is so fucking crazy. No, we're yeah. When in reality we just want you to have skill you have to have a skill and be secure there is like honestly it is so hot to be able to like text my boyfriend better and be like hey do you want to go get a pet a here and he'd be like yeah sure.

Yeah it feels good and like you're taking care of yourself hygiene's hot hygiene's so hot. The number one thing I have seen is like a if you want to use the I hate to you but to use the term game the number one like example of game that I know is guy knows how to cook really well.

That's like very close to the top of the list for me. It's like just being able to do really good bits like bits that aren't punching down like constant bits respect but also like you.

You're able to make Shishitos the soy sauce. Yeah it's over. I just really want to teach her that size. Jean is hot. Yeah you could cook a souffle and you can like fix the insulation in like a bad attic and I'm a hundred or like say guitar and I'm a hundred percent sure you wash your hands every time after you use the bathroom. And flip your nails honey and honestly guys I hate to say it that's not even a hard requirement the bar for men is low.

“The bar for men is so low. You need to have this this and this for women too and it's like I'm like oh god it's so hot when like a guy takes out the trash and like you don't have to ask him to do it.”

He just does it. I've literally had the experience of going out on a double date with a friend and being with like two friends right when one male one female and pointing to like my friend who's the dude and being like hey man you shirts on inside out and him going hey man yours is too. The bar is on the floor. I mean like women are dated and there are like so many things where it's almost like just live like being with a really good roommate you know like where it's like oh yeah like you just did the thing.

And so when you meet a guy that also just does those things because they're considering it's like wow that's so hot.

Yeah. We could continue off of hogging the internet dating podcast and has and we have. So I should say before we go out here that from the jump look as of an in cell thought is also heavily rooted in new genics and race science this is immediately part of what's going on and it's there from the beginning up to the present day.

A major and it's not always in the way that you'd think right this is not just like weird white guy race science one major and angry subset of in cells are young men of Asian descent.

And these guys come to convince themselves that Asian men are inherently unattractive based on this PSL system if you were an Asian man it's impossible for you to be hot basically which. Okay man, but this has led to a situation a problem in the US where high sexual market value Asian women only date white men who are by naturally the highest SMV group because again this is all basically repurposed Nazi race science. All of these male beauty standards are in addition with like Casper Van Dean from Starship Troopers as like a 10 right a blonde square jawed area and man is like the peak of attractiveness.

And also the racist aspect of being like well she's just gonna have black babies with some black man like that's something that I get my fucking replies all the time there's so fucking racist.

“Yeah tons of it and it's yeah it's like that that's an important aspect to this is not just guys like coming up with their own silly scale they're also repurposing a lot of like old race science bullshit you know.”

So what you have kind of by 2013 2014 right before Elliott Roger does what he's going to do you've gotten to the point where you've got.

That is the strain of in seldom that does bring us looks maxing and clivicular but is toxic and create and stupid as that side is they're the objectively healthier part of the in cell community because they believe they can improve their situation. The other half of themselves become in their words black pill they basically believe in the principles of look is them but they deny that at least they specifically have any hope of improving their PSL score they're inherently ugly men even surgery can't help them and if you're what someone who can't even fix your looks through surgery you only have two options you can commit suicide or you can commit suicidal mass murder which they call going ER as a reference to Elliott Roger right.

Those are your only options that's the black pill chunk of the community so that's where we are but like 2014.

Great cool that'll just took five years awesome. It took five years to go from I don't like mystery to I think I might need to kill a bunch of people because I can't get a date. It takes a lot less time than that now. Yeah, it takes like a week I hate it here. You want to give a plug for the campaign at the end here?

“I'm ready for congress because we don't have democrats to know how to handle the far right and that's what I've devoted my life to.”

You can find more about my campaign at capitalinoid.com if you are in the Chicago area check what district you're in I'm Illinois nine our election is March 17th please consider donating or volunteering. Our discord server is discord.gd slash cat for Illinois we need all hands on deck. Excellent.

All right everybody well that's part one.

Check cat campaign out if you're in Illinois you know vote for for for love goodness and we'll be back on Thursday to talk about things that will depress you even more and eventually talk about. Vote, vote smashing thank god. Good lord. Bye. Behind the bastards is a production of cool zone media from more from cool zone media visit our website cool zone media.com Our check us out on the I heard radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of behind the bastards are now streaming on Netflix dropping every Tuesday and Thursday.

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