How Should Jude Influence How We Think About the Deuterocanon?

>> Hey, John, hello.

“>> Hello, we get to do a Q&A, question response.”

>> Yeah, I'm a letter of Judah.

>> Letter of Judah. >> Judah, huh? >> Judah, uh, whatever. >> Well, Judah is in our standard English translations. Judah is the English translation of, yeah, who da?

>> But the Greek translation of this Hebrew name, Yavodal, was Yudas. So, we're just, we're different. >> Any of those. >> Any of them.

>> We'll be fine. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So, uh, you know, I was worried to putting this together and releasing it that this would maybe lose a number of people.

>> [LAUGH] >> People got, I'm going to wait till the next series. >> Yeah. >> But I've been running into people who are following along. >> Oh, really?

>> Yeah. >> People have been really enjoying it. >> Cool. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, you know, it's just a under explored corner

of the New Testament. >> Yeah. >> It's like a window and the, all this wild stuff. >> Yeah, one guy said the nerdy are the better. So, I guess that's a challenge.

>> Yeah. >> Okay, cool. You know, real time, now we have these conversations a while ago.

“And so, I was trying to upload and remember it all.”

So, come do this a question in response time, but this is super fun. I really enjoyed working on this little letter. So much happening. And maybe I part of why my interest was drawn to it. Because it reflects how some of the earliest followers

of Jesus both talked about their devotion to Jesus. And then also their scripture reading habits. >> Yeah, how they read the Bible. >> Yeah, which is something you and I just are thinking about all the time, which is about.

>> How do you read the Bible? >> How, yeah. And how do we, what does it mean to read scripture on its own terms, along the grain of its design, as a unified story, leading to misogy.

>> Yeah, the meditation letter. >> Meditation letter, as well as that. >> Yeah. >> And so, this became this wonderful case study. But in a subculture of Christianity that feels super different

than anything you and I have been a part of. >> Okay. >> Culturally, which is why I love that. >> Are we gonna give out any gold stars today? >> Okay, I can't predict.

>> Okay, I can't predict. >> Okay. >> All right.

Yes, so as always, we've asked for you all to submit questions

and a bunch of you did. And I try and pick the ones that hit the most repeated level. Like what questions are rising to the top that many people are asking. So that's kind of my selection criteria.

And there you go, shall we just get rockin'? >> What is rock? >> Okay, yeah, let's begin with a couple questions. That came from a number of people about Judah as a quote, "Brother of Jesus."

What's up with the brothers of Jesus? I actually ended up forcing a stable episode's worth of conversation about the relatives of Jesus. But many questions about that. So one question getting asked in two different ways.

Once from Ashley and then from Jeffrey. So let's hear your questions. >> Hi, Tim and John. This is Ashley from Cincinnati, Ohio. In your first episode of the Jude series,

you really harp on two views of Jesus's brothers mentioned in the Gospels. You gave the theories of one, they were his cousins, and two, they were his stepbrothers that Joseph had before marrying Mary.

However, I grew up thinking that they were his half-brothers, siblings, Mary, and Joseph had after Jesus. You didn't really seem to touch on this viewpoint. So I was wondering if there's evidence for or against this. And in addition to this, why is the perpetual virginity

“of Mary so important to some denominations of Christianity?”

>> Thanks for all you do. >> Hello, fellas. I'm Jeff and I live in Texas. I've really enjoyed the series on Jude, but was struck by the observation

that Jesus' siblings may have come from a previous marriage

of Joseph, and it honestly never occurred to me.

It also puts John seven into better context when his brothers challenged Jesus to make himself known at the festival of boots. As I thought it over, it definitely reminded me of the way Joseph's brothers and family reacted

to him sharing his dreams of them bowing down to them. Or when Aaron and Miriam spoke out against Baby Brother Moses, it seems that not only is there a theme of the older serving the younger, but also some built-in resentment from the older to the younger as well.

>> Jeff doing some hyperlink. >> I don't like that. >> That's probably gold star. >> Oh, gold star. >> That's right.

>> That's right. >> Yeah, Jeff, for your observation, the sibling rivalry theme, the week did a whole video on podcast series. >> Yeah, the first one series. >> Mm-hm.

>> Is that peaking out in the gospels,

There's good reason to think that that's part of why John

brings it up, but it's also there in Matthew Marken Luke, when Mary and the brothers come to get Jesus in Mark, they come to visit him while he's teaching, 'cause I think he's lost his mind, and Jesus makes that comment, you know, a profits.

Actually, welcome everywhere, but the place he grew up, yeah. So there's some of that coming out there. And so I'm glad to put a different perspective on your radar, Jeff, though the fact that it was new to you,

“is interesting, and then I think that's kind of actually”

what you are putting your finger on to is, there are different perspectives, and you're right, Ashley, the view that I think I had all assumed for a long time is the same as you, Ashley, namely that the brothers of Jesus mentioned in the gospels

are his half brothers. >> Half brothers meaning from Joseph and Mary, even though Jesus was from Mary and Spirit, exactly. So you're right, Ashley, and saying, I didn't spend time developing that view as much.

I think because that was the default view that I had until I began encounter evidence for other views, and why I think why I was so interested in them was because I realized they were more than just options, like there's some real compelling early evidence around them.

So I wanted a chance to drill down on that a little bit more. >> Okay. >> So I learned a lot from New Testament scholar, Brant Petra, the book's name is Jesus and the Jewish roots of Mary.

“And this was the first time in reading his book”

that I came across what I'm about to summarize. So first of all, there is a genuine puzzle in the story of the angel in giving the announcement that she's pregnant to Jesus,

that I had never noticed the significance of,

and Brant Petra draws attention to it. And the moment you see it, you're just kind of like, "Oh, you learned something new every day." So this is when the angel comes to Mary. This is Luke chapter 1 verse 30, "Don't be afraid."

Mary, you found favor with God, you're going to conceive in your womb, bear a son, name in Jesus. And Mary said to the angel, so I'm reading the new American standard,

"How can this be since I am a virgin?" So on that translation, I guess your question is, "How can I become pregnant?"

“Given the fact that I've never had sex with anybody.”

If there's a little footnote, and what the footnote in the new American standard says, literally, what she says in Greek is, "I do not know a man." - Okay, which is a euphemism for,

to exactly write? - Yeah. - Yeah, for a man to know a woman is kind of Hebrew idiom, for having sex, Genesis 4 verse 1.

This is the first time that appears.

However, and this is what Grant Petra pointed out, is that's a weird question to ask. So what the angel says is, you are pregnant, and she asks, "How can this be since I do not know a man?" Now, we know she's already engaged to Joseph.

That's like in all the famous Christmas stories, but she's not saying I haven't had sex with Joseph. It's present tense, and the Greek, it's present tense. I do not know a man. - Okay, not currently knowing a man.

- Yeah, sort of like, if, say somebody's quit smoking. - Okay, and somebody's like, "Hey, you want to cigarette?" - I'm not smoking. - I don't smoke. - I don't smoke.

I do not smoke. - Oh, she doesn't say I haven't passed tense, 'cause that would be more of a... - Yeah, why would I smoke? I haven't smoked in 10 years.

That's not what she says. - Okay. - What she says is, I don't smoke. I don't know a man, which, as less about the past, and it's more about her present tense.

Now that, you might just be like, "Oh, yeah, whatever, I don't know. "It's not the big of a deal." However, there is lots of evidence, and within the Hebrew Bible itself,

a whole background about Jewish people taking vows of celibacy. In fact, there's a whole chapter of the Torah dedicated to this, we call it numbers chapter 30. And there is a whole section in numbers chapter 30 about what happens when a woman wants to make a vow of celibacy

before God. And then it gets complicated, because, well, then her dad

This is in numbers chapter 30, but essentially,

“it was perfectly acceptable, even honorable,”

for a man or a woman, for a period of time, to make a vow to God of celibacy. This is exactly how Jesus saw himself. And part of actually why Jesus did that, he gives us the one little clue in the story

that we talked about when we began the podcast, which was, in the new creation, people won't be married or given a marriage. This will be like the angels, and it'll procreate. So it seems like Jesus chose celibacy,

because he was embracing here on earth, like a heavenly mode of existence, which is apparently where we're all headed in the resurrection. So all that to say is Jesus himself embraced this kind of vow, the celibacy vow.

And we know that that option was available for females too. So those are two little details if Mary had made that kind of vow. - A woman could get married and still make that kind of vow. - Yeah, married couple. - Could have married couple, but this would be a vow

for a period of time. Could be a court could be permanent. - A married couple would potentially make a permanent vow of celibacy. - Really?

- Yeah, never heard of that.

- Yeah, Paul mentions it in his letter to the Corinthians, 'cause apparently some people in Corinth had started doing this, and he's like, man, I really think that's probably not wise for most of you.

“If you want to do it for a period of time,”

- Well that's what he started with. - 'Cause you're devoted to prayer. Now that's in Corinth, and so it's a much more of a, I don't know if these types of vows existed in Greek and Roman culture in the same way.

'Cause it was definitely a part of like ancient Israelite and Jewish culture. So my point is that Mary's answer is a little bit strange. I do not know a man. I don't know men, it's what she says.

I don't know men. - This is not a thing I do. - I don't have sex with men. So how is it that I'm pregnant? - Okay.

- Or actually, what the angel says is, you will conceive and give birth to a son. - Is it? I also was wondering, is it you have conceived or you will conceive?

- Yeah, you will conceive, and it's in the future of tents.

“So I think you, yeah, I should have brought that out.”

So when the angel says you will conceive and bear a son

in Mary's mind, what she could at first be thinking is,

yeah, well, I'm engaged, and we have approximated the marriage, but one day I will. Then she says, well how can that happen since I don't know a man? - Mm, and then the angel says the Holy Spirit.

- Okay, so you're building a case for the perpetual virginity, which is what Ashley asked about? - Yes, how that maybe hit it at here in scripture. - Exactly, this is one little clue. Again, this is a pre-trip point this out, but it is true.

Her response is kind of funny, but it actually makes sense if you link it together with vows of abstinence. But these aren't the only pieces of the puzzle, okay. Another piece is in John chapter 19, when Jesus is like dying, hanging on the cross,

and there's a well-known moment where his mom comes up to him while he's hanging there, yeah. And his mom is standing there with the disciple whom Jesus loved, and so he says to them, he says, woman, beholds your son, you know,

beholds your mother.

Basically, he is trusting the care of her mother

to a disciple. That would be so strange if he has four brothers. That's weird. So you just, little things like, oh, that's interesting. Like, why is he doing that?

- Would it be so strange? Or is it that it just, it would be less necessary? It just makes it stand out. - It just makes it stand out. All these things, yeah.

So this isn't the flame dunk case. It's just saying there are clues in the New Testament that have and do provide a background to say, well, maybe Mary had made a one of these vows of celibacy. There's also a passage in Matthew's birth account

of Jesus, Matthew 124, that says Joseph did not know Mary until she had birthed a son. And that seems like in plain English, right? Well, that means he did know her afterwards. - Yeah.

- However, the Greek and Hebrew words until don't function the same way that they do in English. And just another example from Matthew, I think, is a good illustration of it. This took me a long time in learning Greek and Hebrew

with the word "until." 'Cause when I say "until," I'm not gonna have coffee until I get to work.

And the word "until" means I will have coffee, then.

“That's not how "until" has to function in Greek and Hebrew.”

It often functions to say, I won't have coffee until I get to the office and I will continue to not have coffee. - Then why would you bring up the office? - Because I'm headed to the office.

- 'Cause you're headed there. - Yeah. - When you just say, "I don't know coffee." (laughing) I don't.

- Yes, I could say that in a way. - Why bring up the office? (laughing) - So, the last sentence of a gospel of Matthew, Jesus says to the disciples,

"I am with you until the end of the age." It's the same word about Joseph didn't know Mary until she birthed a son. Is Jesus saying, "Hey, guys, I am with you all "until the end of the age and then I won't be."

That's what it means in English.

That's an opposite of what it means here in Greek. - The until an English means something fundamentally is going to change at that moment. - Yeah, exactly in English. - In English.

- In Greek. - So the way I would make sense of what Jesus said there. Say it again, what does Jesus say? - Look, I am with you until the end of the age. - Okay, I'm with you until the end of the age.

And at the end of the age, something fundamentally is going to change, which is going to mean the way I'm with you, is not going to matter anymore. That's how I would have been.

- But it won't be the opposite. It won't be, I won't be with you. - No, it won't be. So it would be kind of like, I'm not going to drink coffee until it gets to the office.

- And then, I'm going to drink a red ball. - I don't know, okay, that much. - Yeah, yeah. My point is if you look at many, many examples of the word until in the New Testament,

you'll find it doesn't work the same. - Got it. - I think English, sort of. - And the reason I bring it up is because many people point to that verse and say,

- You see it clearly says that they did have sex and actually it doesn't. All she says is for the period that she was pregnant,

they never consummate at the marriage.

So those are all little pieces. Then there's the fact, and this was what I mentioned in the podcast, that every single early church bishop, scholar Bible nerd,

going back to the second century, third, onward, all firmly believed, not just for as a matter of theology, but as a matter of historical and interpretive fact, that Mary never had sex with Joseph

and that the brothers of Jesus were his cousins or relatives, but not his half brothers, through Mary. So that's why I was so interested in all of that. And then forced you to go through all of that. - And then it deep does.

- Okay. So there were later kind of theological developments about the meaning of the virginity of Mary. And those are things that I'm actually less qualified to talk about.

But when we get many hundreds of years down the line, the role of Mary really increases in orthodox the Catholic tradition and then really.

“- That's what I think maybe some people are wondering then.”

Do I need to chase that down as there's something in those traditions for me in the way I practice my faith? And you're saying, I'm just saying, in the New Testament, there is ample room for the earlyness of the view,

the early nature of the view that Mary had taken a vow of celibacy. And that's what all this is rooted in is in that memory of that historical fact. If you take that view,

a whole bunch of pieces make sense in the New Testament. And I just thought that was super interesting. Also because then a commitment to celibacy for Jesus was intentional and meaningful. And the fact that he would be following his mom's lead

on that. - That's cool. Super cool, to imagine. So, there you go. If you want to learn more about this,

Grant Petra's book, Jesus, and the Jewish roots of Mary is a great place to take a next step. But the brothers of Jesus, it's actually really,

that's why I love the letter of Jude. Because it forces you to think about things you wouldn't have thought of otherwise. - Okay. - The next question is from Taylor.

- Taylor, yeah. - Hi, Tim and John. This is Taylor from Houston, Texas. And I'm wearing my Bible Project T-shirt as I record this question.

- Yeah. - In episode five, you talk about love meals or love feast. Can you explain more about those

“and recommend any good resources for further study?”

How should this inform how we think about the Lord's supper and how we practice observing it in community with God and other humans? May the Lord bless you and keep you hugs from time to time. - Mm-hmm.

- Thank you, Taylor. Have you ever seen that blessing? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, the love meals.

Love feasts. This is in Jude verse 12,

So he's talking about these people,

“like those guys that had snuck into the community”

that Jude was so worked up about. And he describes him in verse 12 as hidden C rocks attending your copy meals. - You're loved meals. - I love how you say I got me.

- Oh, I got it. - How good are you? - We got soft in the G. - Yeah, I'm happy. - Love it. (laughing)

So, you know, the point of these meals is celebration of Jesus' presence in your midst as the one who died for our sins. And there's hidden C rocks that are gonna run the whole ship of ground.

They're at the feast. That's his point. - Yeah, so he just, it's a casual mention. - Right.

- You're supposed to know what these feasts are.

- Yeah, exactly. So, it is just the noun, a copy. Love. - Yeah. - It's a verb in John 316,

forgot so loved the world. - Yeah. - Greater love has no one in this.

“- What was the series that you showed me”

the work that our friend did on the word. - It was in the advent series. - Yes, yes. - Yes, that's the word. - And how the early Christians popularized.

- Yeah. - What was a less common word for love? - Yep. - We need, yeah. - We've got words for love,

but what we're experiencing feels fundamentally different. Let's make this word do the some work for us. - Yeah. - Yeah, and then love a copy becomes like the main word to describe the God, they encountered in Jesus.

- Yeah. - So, it's a plural noun, love, and Greek. So, literally it's these men are hidden C rocks at your loves. - Mm-hmm.

- It would be like the hyperlip. - Oh, okay. - At your moments of love. But then he later says in the sentence, when they are feasting together and it's the word,

it's actual word for like eating. - Oh, the word feast isn't their first. - It's just the loves. - Yeah, so our English translations call it the love feast. - Right.

- It's literally just the word love in the plural. - That's your love. - At your loves, when they are eating together with you. - Okay. - 'Cause that's what you do with it.

- 'Cause that's what you do with it. - 'Cause that's what you do. (laughs)

'Cause this is, actually here, I never do this.

I'm just gonna read from a commentary. - Oh. - 'My favorite commentary on the letter of Jude by Richard Balkham. Can't recommend his work enough. And he says this, this is the earliest occurrence

of the term 'Agapi' in the sense of a Christian fellow ship meal. But this usage after the letter of Jude becomes very frequent. And then he has lots of references that are all post-new testament, but in the earliest writings of the earliest church,

guy named Ignatius in the guy named Clement of Alexandria, guy named Tritolian, they all just take for granted that this is the name of a weekly feast meal that followers of Jesus have together. - Okay.

He goes on, it is equivalent to the much less frequent term used by Paul, the Lord's supper. - Okay. - The Lord's meal.

“And that's what he calls taking the bread”

and the Paul calls that by that term in this letter to Corinthians. - So he's saying this is the same meal. - It's the same meal. - Okay, yeah. - So he goes on, he says in the background

to the practice are the common meals of Judaism so he means both like the feasts of Passover and there's the weekly Sabbath meal that you would have. Also, we know about new meals introduced into the Jewish calendar, like by the Dead Sea Scroll community.

They talk a lot about their special ritual meals and special blessings that they have for the meals. And also, Bachum goes on. We know that meals were a part of the communal living rhythms in the earliest Christian communities.

Book of Acts, you know where they are dedicating themselves the apostles teaching to the breaking of bread. - Okay, we have the break to the prayers, yes. - So especially the meals, including the last supper, that the disciples of Jesus celebrated with him

both before and after his resurrection. So that meal, right, the Passover meal that Jesus has with his disciples. - That one was before after that was also a Passover meal. - So in the background to the Agape feast,

which Paul calls the Lord to supper, there are the general ritual meals in Judaism, then there's also the last supper meal, that's in the gospels. Then there's also the community meals

that describe in the book of Acts. - So meal after his resurrection. - Yeah exactly, that's right. So we go on, the Agape feast or the Lord to supper was a real meal.

Paul talks about they're being an actual meal

It's also mentioned in the book of Acts,

breaking bread from House to House. It was held in the evening, Bachum says, and he appeals to a moment in Acts chapter 20, when Paul was in the city of Troas,

“and we're told that they gathered together to break bread”

and Paul began talking to them intending to leave the next day, but well, he went along with his message until midnight. - Oh, cool. - And this is when the guy you took his falls out of the window,

'cause he fell asleep at Paul's sermon. - Yeah, I feel. (both laughing) - So it's the same phrase, you know, breaking bread for the weekly gathering,

but it was happening at night, girl. - Oh, okay. - So this meal was not in the earliest New Testament period, different from the Eucharist taking the bread in the cup. - Okay.

- The bread in the cup was just a part of the meal. - Right. - That makes sense. Like when you get to the part where you're gonna pour some wine or break some bread, like that's when you do.

- Yes. - Remember it since then. - Yep. So he says, "Once you get past the New Testament,

“Ignatius, who was an important bishop in the late '90s,”

early 100s, he's still using the term Lord supper to describe the bread in the cup. Are you a Christian? It's only once you get into the mid 100s with a guy named Justin

that taking the bread in the cup as a ritual to remember Jesus has become different from a regular meal just a meal that you would have together. So at some point, the ritual meal of just taking the bread in the cup separate from actually having a sit down meal.

That happened. - What are you early on? - Really, like somewhere in the mid 100s. And our sources don't give us the time of information for how to pin that down.

So, Bokham thinks that the name of the feast must arrive from the dominant early Christian sense of the love of God reaching people through Jesus Christ and creating a fellowship of love among Christians. I, this is Nami, not Bokham, have wondered

if the account given of the meal in John's Gospel where he washes their feet and then talks about how much he loves them. - Yeah, love them to the full. This is my command.

- I love each other. - I love each other. - That if that's not really the roots of this term. So yeah, the love feast. So maybe it's just a good name.

How people take the bread in the cup really differs now in your church tradition.

But at the roots of it, in the early first century

was it was an actual meal that people sat down together, eating together, lots of different kinds of people celebrating the love of God that brought them all together in unity as the body of Christ. And you eat a meal that begins with this kind of ritual

moment of the bread in the cup. - Mm-hmm. Okay, so Sabbath meal in Jewish tradition is a weekly meal Friday nights, Friday night meal. The Passover meal is a once a year, meal.

And then you're saying the Cumeron community shows us that they could innovate other meals. - It could end did. - That's right. - Yeah, Jewish sub-communities could

end did develop their own little specialty, special meal. - So the Jewish Messianic movement, the Jude was a part of, said, okay, Resurrection Sunday is a big deal.

And we're gonna have to eat and actually, you know, when we get together and eat, this is more than just eating. - Mm-hmm. - And what we have is Jesus telling us

what to do with bread and cup. Like let's really make this special. - Yeah. Yeah, and the word the Lord's Supper is matched by a term we have in the Revelation called the Lord's Day

referring to Resurrection Sunday. - Mm-hmm. - So the fact that the meal shifted from the Passover focus on Friday nights and was celebrated on Sundays as a Resurrection meal to celebrate the love of God

seems to be what the Acopy meal refers to. And that it was later that taking the bread and the cup got separated from an actual sit down meal. So I'm not passing judgment on any of those developments

“just saying that's what Jude is referring to.”

That's why he refers to it the way that he does.

But this is the first mention of that feast

being called by that name. - It's not interesting. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I could tell as Taylor asked the question

her wheels are spinning a little bit like, is there something for me here? - Mm-hmm. - A meal that I need to get in on? - Yeah, you know, yeah, maybe I would just encourage

there are many followers of Jesus

taking the bread and the cup apart from an actual meal.

“And that is how many followers of Jesus do it.”

It's a little more work. - Yeah. - Sure. - Can I go over here? - But it's also really cool to actually have that moment

with the people sitting around the table together. - Yeah. - Yeah, super cool. So if that's something you want to explore Taylor, if you should totally do that.

You asked for a couple of resources. So one I recommended Richard Bachham's commentary, but that's a whole commentary. You know, I just read one paragraph. An older book that I learned so much from a number of years ago

is by a New Testament scholar, I Howard Marshall called Last Supper, Lloyd Supper. And it's a fantastic place to kind of accessible, but definitely a deep dive into the history of this meal in the Christianity.

- Mm-hmm.

- Great, Bix Taylor, move on to a question from...

- Yeah. - Okay, Ian, from Kaiser Organ, just down South of here. - Mm-hmm. - That's what it in and out is, right?

(laughing) - In and out Berger? - Yeah. - Is that an Kaiser? - I think so, right off, Interstate 5.

- Yeah. - I'd love that you know that. (laughing) - Clearly, you've stopped there. - It's clearly.

(laughing)

“- Ian, your question is another highly repeated question.”

Which is about the expansive church library that Judah seems to have with not just quoting from the Hebrew Bible, but also from, you know, some other texts that speak many readers' curiosity. So let's hear your question, Ian.

- Hi, Tim and John.

My name is Ian, and I'm from Kaiser Organ.

My question is, when Jude wrote this letter, I doubt that he knew his letter would end up in a collection of scrolls accompanying the Torah. Paradoxically, he's quoted from a scroll that some do not consider should be in a collection

with the Torah. What does this mean for how we are to understand the significance of the widely accepted biblical books versus the Deutero canon? And what does this mean for how we view other recent writings,

like letters, essays, and books that are inspired by God and written by faithful followers, but are not as old as these scrolls. Thank you for the work you do to spread the good news. - Mm-hmm. (laughing)

- It's such a great question. It is, some reason to me it feels like a dangerous question. - Ooh, danger. - Yeah, danger. - Yeah.

“- 'Cause is this, well, can you discern why?”

- Uh, I'll be feeling that. - Yeah, there's something about really, at least in the Trish Niagara up and for sure. But then I sort of just feels intuitive. We've got a really protect thing.

What is scripture? And kind of really keep a kind of tight lid on that. Otherwise, the crazy is going to start after. - Sure. - Yeah, yeah, I hear that.

Yeah, I resonate with it in many ways. Maybe just as a hyperlink. - Yeah. - We did the crash course and how the Bible was formed. - Right.

- Podcast series came out last year. - That's where you're going. - Yeah. - Okay, so that would be a more in-depth place to go. - Yeah, 'cause we go right at that question

for a couple episodes. - Right. - And for those of you who haven't listened that series yet. So, there's a number of challenges here. One is we are acquainted with the Bible

in a particular form of technology here in the 21st century. Two forms, not really. - Digital Bibles? - Right. - That have, when you open up the table of contents

in like a digital Bible, it's very clear what there it is. But that is a derivative off of the previous main form of technology, which is the technology of the book or the code decks. - Yeah, bound collection of, of anything.

- Yeah, many pages together and one thing. - That's right, yeah. - So, and the nature of that technology forces the question of, what's in, what's out? - What's in, what's out?

- Yeah, 'cause you brought up before that when you have a collection of scrolls and your mind are all working together. But they're all distinct. - Yeah.

- And you may even only have access to certain of them because scrolls are expensive. - Yeah. - Your library might have them all. - Another scrolls is the technology

that preceded the book, yeah, in terms of the history of the Bible. - Right, right. - And so with that, with the scroll technology, you know, you've also painted the picture of like

going to a library and there's just little holes in the wall, what's put in the scrolls. - Yeah. - And so you'd have where you put all Torah and prophets and the writings.

But you have your other scrolls, too. And they would be there, and you'd be a look at your wall and you kind of know, okay, this is Torah. This is prophets, this is writing. - Yeah.

- Here's other literature I have, but it's not like it's all in one book. - Exactly, so just the point of making that observation

the shift from scroll collection to the codex or the book forces a way of conceiving of a collection that wouldn't occurred you in the same way. So we know that Jewish people thought of the Hebrew scriptures as a unified collection.

And you have this term, this phrase, of the Torah, the prophets, and the writings, or the Torah, the prophets, and Psalms. And that's repart. Description is used all over ancient Judaism,

including the teachings of Jesus and early Christianity.

“But I think just the fact that it was a scroll collection,”

created an easier imagination to say, and that's not like the only literature we got hanging around. - We got hanging around, and so the flourishing

of second temple, scripture, like literature,

just abounded. I mean, it was an incredibly productive literary culture. - Yeah, and not only did they read it and really appreciate it, they thought, it helped them understand scripture,

and they thought it helped them hear from God. - Yes, yes. - And so suddenly, it feels like, are you blurring the lines in between how you hear from God and scripture,

and how you're hearing from God with these other piece of literature? - Yeah. - And I think in this question, is I think some empathy for how, yeah, we still kind of do that.

- Totally. - Like our pastors, or I think there is there'll write something we like that was inspired.

- Yes. - I'm hearing from God from what you wrote there,

but we don't call that scripture. - Scripture. - That's right. So what is it that sets Hebrew scriptures

“and the books of the New Testament apart from that?”

And 'cause there are lots of different views out there in scholarship about this. I am persuaded that there's clear evidence that there was a sense of a unified scriptural collection. This is just not talking about the Hebrew scriptures,

and that ancient Jews were able to tell the difference between what was a part of that core collection. But that didn't deter them ever from having bigger community libraries full of all this other literature that was all like in biblical interpretation.

- Yeah. - And there's one fact that I did include, 'cause we have a video about the books of the Dutoro canon, and there's one thing that really stood out to me and is still very significant is when Jesus and the apostles

quote from the scriptures, what would be like we call the Hebrew scriptures. They regularly merge the human author's voice with a divine voice. Like Jesus will quote from what he'll tell us

or call the scrolls of Moses and say, "And God says," you know what I'm saying? Same with the letter to the Hebrews. He'll quote from a song and say, "David said here, "and then in the next paragraph say,

"and the Holy Spirit is saying to us here." So they merge the divine and human voices when they talk about these scrolls. They don't ever do that when they quote from other literature. And the one exception that might be the difference

is right here in the letter of Jude. - Or he's quoting from Enoch. He's quoting from Enoch. But even what he's quoting is a quotation with Deuteronomy 33.

- Enoch's quoting. - That Enoch is quoting. - Yeah. - And he doesn't actually say God says, but what he says is this found in the, you know,

the seventh's from Adam. - Right. - So I think it's more that because the technology the book forces us who have only ever encountered the Bible that way, we tend to think in an either or.

And if we can inhabit a community that had a scroll collection and they had a clear sense of what their scriptures were. But that didn't exclude in any way this like in between category of like semi scripture

or texts that are super valuable to us. That doesn't mean we think they're in the Hebrew Bible but they're still really valuable to us. So that's one piece of it. But it does raise a question of like,

well what is really the difference? Like what would be the difference that matters? And historically, the difference that matters of how you segment these texts off from the others is, do they point to Jesus meaning,

where do I go to hear what the Hebrew prophets and the apostles designated by Jesus who knew Him? Where do I go to go to the source for the real stuff?

“And that's what the designation, the prophets and apostles,”

refers to the two part Christian Bible. And what you definitely have in the early Christian movement

as you move into the second and third century

then is lots of debate about where do I go to get the real Jesus? Like who wears the real Jesus represented? And it was consistently the writings of the prophets and of the apostles that kept rising to the top

and that's a very short form of like how the Christian Bible emerges out from the sea of other literature.

has uniquely a divine witness written through human authors

to point to Jesus. The fact that that was recognized as really special doesn't diminish the fact that most of these early communities also had wider libraries. I don't know.

It's just-- Oh, it's clear to you now? [LAUGHTER] Oh, yeah, but I mean, I'm also uploading all the things you talked about in that other conversation.

Yeah. I think the right type of ambiguity is clear to me. Should I say it back? Please. OK.

Yeah. So there's a clear sense of what we call the Old Testament to our prophets' writings. That became really clear what's in and out. And that became a unified question.

That became really clear of what it is as a coherent collection.

“The question of what is out, I think, was less important.”

I mean, it's inferred. But what matters is just this is a unified question of schools. And we're telling it apart from other things that are very similar, like the Inox scroll, the testimony Moses, and there's other literature

that's being written in the spirit of the same imitation of. And it's actually for early Christians, but also in these different movements, really important literature. And so you would have respect for it.

But you're saying there was a delineation in their mind of this is scripture. And this is kind of literature that accompanies scripture. Yeah, but it's porous. Yeah, there was an account sold.

There wasn't like someone came down and said, this is exactly what it is. It kind of emerged through being a unified collection. Yes. And so you might have some debates and arguments

in people disagreeing. You definitely. And what we saw often in the letter of Jude is when he'd reference stories from the Old Testament,

“he's not just referencing the story version”

found in the Hebrew text of the Hebrew Bible, but also in light of all these other hyperlinked inferences and connections. Yeah. And he expects that you--

He expects that. Yeah. And those happened to be versions of the story.

There's told in a lot of other second-tepple-chews literature

that also are capturing that same thing, which means that he wasn't educated only on the Hebrew scriptures. But he was raised in a community that was reading them as a unified story that leads to the Messiah.

Yeah. And so as it comes to the Deutero canon, which I think you brought up, is that in coming back to our series on this, was a lot of those books in the Deutero canon

are that second-tepple-chews-- Yes. --peas of literature. --a lot of those books in the Deutero canon. Stuff that Jews quoting from.

“Enoch's not an except for in the Ethiopian tradition.”

Yeah, good memory. And so there are Christians, followers of Jesus, who say, actually those for us are now in our canon in our scripture collection. And then there are others that say, I know they're not.

But if you're going to say no, they're not. That doesn't mean they're not significant. That's right. Or, you know, they don't have something for us. That's right.

And you even showed us back during that series of conversations that some of the earliest parsnip bubbles had them printed in the same codex. That's an appendix, yeah. Yeah, that's right.

You'd carry them along with you. OK. Yeah. There's the clear. Thank you.

Well, no, no, let's go get a double double. Ian, look for us at the end of the burger. Down in your neck of the woods, sometime. And we'll probably still be talking about safe touch. OK, Josh, you had a question.

Ooh, about Judea's reference to the rebel sends a God and the Nephilim in Genesis 6. Perfect, that'll be easy. Yeah, of course, all right. Hi, Tim and John.

In your recent discussion on the book of Jude,

you hyperlinked first six back to the Nephilim in Genesis 6.

That got me wondering if there's any evidence that by the time of the early church, there was any kind of understanding that divine beings had the capability to procreate. Is there any room for that kind of theology today?

Well, hmm, yeah. OK, it's a great question. There's a great question. I'm really curious, too. I want to know how we should approach this.

So, may first thought you're asking Josh, is there any evidence in early Christianity about spiritual beings procreating? So I would widen the scope and say, one, there is ample evidence that in the ancient world

of the ancient Near East and in the Greek and Roman world, that divine beings could and did procreate with humans. If you know of the character Hercules, like he's a half god, half human, he's a son of Zeus, who, I'm forced to, woman to sleep with him, kind of thing.

Zeus did. So, all that's in the air,

So, the only two stories in the Hebrew Bible

that ever even nudged in this direction, one of them is the son of God, Genesis 6. And then that's for you.

“But the thing is, that's for you negatively, right?”

Like, extremely negatively. - Yeah. - This is a problem. - It's a problem, 'cause it's a sign if the Garden of Eden was humans trying to grab at divine wisdom on their own terms

through the council of the spiritual being, right, seeing and taking what is good. Genesis 6 is hyperlinked to that as like a mirror inversion, where the sons of God, spiritual beings, see and desire what is good that is human women

and take them, and it seems like, based on what God says in response to that, it was like a effort at restoring divine life to humans outside of the Garden. It was like a illicit merging of heaven and earth

to restore eternal life to the humans. So, God's like shut down on that project. But in the story, the unfortunate result of that is now the world as full of these violent, or your kings, your mother's warrior kings, Nephilim,

“and then they slowly get like killed off”

through the biblical story. And the last one of them to get killed off is Goliath. So, we've talked about that, at length in the past. None of this, by the way, in saying all that matter, faculty, none of this is easy for me

to really get my heart in mind around. Like, it's all so weird to me, but, you know, that's 'cause a whole bunch of things about where I was born and when and so on. - Well, what can I say?

I think there's two approaches to a one is just a lean into it and be like, well, yeah, lean into that discomfort. - Maybe there was some other type of human running around that were these giant hybrids.

The other way is to allegorize it, I guess. And it's kind of say like, this was Israel's way to kind of throw shade at the kings who were saying that this is who they were. - Yeah, a kind of ancient satire.

- Yeah, yeah. - So, not to say that there's one way that we're suggesting. - Yeah. - But like, I think that there's room. - Yes, I completely agree.

So, what is fascinating is you might think, and maybe Josh, this is where your question's going, is, man, where ancient Israelite communities just living in constant fear. Where ancient Israelite women constantly afraid

that like a spiritual being might appear and like sexually assault them. It was that like, and based on the reading I've done

at work on this so far, I have never found one hint

that this was like a fear that people have done there. People did, and do still live under the fear of oppression or attack by spiritual beings. But when you look in the New Testament period, the way that spiritual beings oppressed human beings

are more connected to what we imagine in forms of physical or mental illness. It might come out in a sense. And so, there's nothing in the Bible that is presenting what the sons of God did

in Genesis 6 as an ongoing threat. It is presented as an event on par with Adam and Eames Folly in the Garden of Eden. The sons of God and the rebels in Genesis 6 that led to the violence, which led to the flood,

to the flood, which God says.

I'll never do that again.

And then also the scattering of the tower of Babylon. Like the stories are all presented in a row as these catastrophic moments that has led to the world now that we experience. But the threat of actually, again,

happening again, it just isn't a thing going forward. Like you don't have Jesus as the apostles talking about how to protect yourself from spiritual beings in that way. They definitely talk about protecting yourself

from the evil one. But the way that they always talk about that is that it's a battle in our mind about deception and believing lies about ourselves and other people.

So, I think it's just significant to say that the threat of sexual assault by a spiritual being definitely shouldn't be on the list of anybody's things to worry about. There's enough crazy stuff to worry about in the world.

And nothing in the teaching of Jesus or the apostles gives indication that that something that we should ever be afraid of. It's good to hear.

“Yeah, so if you want to take a deeper dive”

on all things spiritual beings, I definitely recommend the work of Michael Heiser, May he rest in peace, but either his book The Unseen Realm,

And it's just a really accessible, but deep dive

“into the biblical material on all of that”

and onto some of the cultural background in the ancient world about all these topics. Great, thank you for that question. That's a heavy one to end on. Although I'm just glancing at this last one

and it kind of just follows suit a little bit. It's also about spiritual beings. Yeah, but I thought it was interesting. Let's take it on boards. This question from Dave in Tara Hope, Indiana.

Hey, Dave here from Indiana. My question is about the spiritual realm and how it's discussed in Jude versus the Gospel according to John. It seems as though in Jude, it's a very open topic

for discussion, but in the Gospel of John,

he doesn't even mention Jesus driving out demons. Why the big shift? Oh, it's Dave. So, hey, Dave, this is Dave Peter.

“Science teacher, who's been doing work for us.”

Yeah, on our staff. I told him with a bunch of stuff. Yeah. So, Dave's not going in. Hey, Dave.

Well done, Dave. Okay, so great question. Is there some kind of shift in how Jude or John or talking about spiritual beings and then how you see in the Gospels

where he's doing lots of exorcisms? Jesus is healing and exercising. But then the Gospel of John, demons are brought up all of zero times. Really?

Yeah, I never realized that.

Yeah, super interesting. It's like such a huge thing. Yeah, it's a big deal on the other Gospels. Yeah, it's not mentioned at all. So, Dave, your question is, is there a shift

in how spiritual beings are thought about? Yeah, because in Jude, I remember thinking, man, the spiritual realm really saturates, Jude's a maturation of how he sees the world. And the way that he's thinking about these guys

is so affected by the way he sees kind of this cosmic spiritual thing going on around him. Yeah, yes, 100%. So, maybe I wouldn't describe the differences and the New Testament books

with how they depict or portray spiritual beings as a shift.

“I think what you're seeing is different authors”

with different communication goals emphasizing different things. So, in the Gospel of John, the focus so much and he even says, right at the end, I have selected Jesus did more things than you could write down all the books of the world, he says.

But I've selected these things to persuade you that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, full stop. So, part of how he's building the focus on Jesus's divine identity is not to highlight any other rival spiritual beings except one.

And that is essentially like the arch evil spiritual being that Jesus mentions a lot in the Gospel of John. He calls him the ruler of this world, he's the liar, the murderer, the thief who comes to steal, kill, and destroy.

So, that one is very much a theme in the Gospel of John. But maybe it's sort of like, in John, it's the big knock-down drag out between the two, right? The Son of God and the current illegitimate ruler of this world. So, I think he just doesn't want to distract

with any of his spiritual beings. He just wants you to see the show down. But the other Gospels have a different communication goal. And they want to show Jesus as the Lord of every realm of heaven and earth and the inhabitants of them.

And so, the exorcisms play a really big role. And to let our Jude, the spiritual realm, plays even yet another kind of role, doesn't it? - Yeah, how would you describe it? - Well, I mean, he's got a view that the moral order

and the cosmic order are upheld by spiritual beings delegated by God and that they're real. And we need to honor them, but also not make them like our soul focus. But don't disonder them, 'cause they have the whole thing

about Landry. - Yeah. - It's been during the glory of this world. - Don't disobey the angels. So, maybe what we're seeing is the New Testament

is truly the cross-cultural experience. And all of them offer different windows into a world. It's very unlike what modern urban westerners in America and Europe and westernized cities, you know, think of.

But actually, this kind of world view is still held by millions of people around the world till today and many of them are followers of Jesus. And for them, there's no disconnect when they read the New Testament.

- Yeah.

“- I got the witch doctor down the street”

who's just put a curse on my uncle. Now he's really sick and like this real for a lot of people right now.

And it's never been otherwise.

- Yeah. (laughing) - It's heavy. (laughing) And strange, but I guess that is a perfect way

to wrap up the letter, Jude. - Yeah, in a way, yeah. - A strange. - Yeah. - And actually kind of heavy letter, you know,

he's really after a couple of guys, a handful of men, I don't know how many. We're just creating so much chaos. - Yeah. - That is just like, he throws down.

And that feels uncomfortable to me.

The way he talks about spiritual realm,

“feels uncomfortable, but it's also very instructive for me.”

To take some things seriously, like make sure I have a real cosmic view of what sometimes might feel like just every day. - Right, decisions. - Yeah, that's right.

That our lives are taking place on a stage that has so much more going on than we observe with our five senses, which we kind of already know. Even if you're, and especially if you're a science nerd, you know that.

I mean, there's so much happening in the universe that's intertwined with you and I waking up every morning. So it's just extending that out to say, what if that universe isn't just like,

in personal quantum forces, but it's actually like, an enchanted, you know, habits at world. Surrounding me that if I don't have eyes to see it, maybe that's my problem, you know. Yeah.

“I really loved that the positive encouragement”

that he offers at the end of the letter is short, but so cool. Do you remember this bit? But you beloved ones build yourselves up on your most holy faith and the architectural terminology

is like temple language, 'cause you're the temple, praying in the spirit. Keep yourselves in the love of God. A so cool, like God's constantly sending love your way, but we actually do have to participate

in maintaining our posture of receiving it, 'cause it's very easy to all of sudden, not be living as if you are infinitely loved. And then as you wait, anticipating the mercy of our Lord Jesus to the life of the age to come.

That's rad, I just, that's first is 20 and 21.

It's good. Yeah, it's good stuff. Saying it that way is not the language that would first come to my mind for how to say goodbye to another Christian.

That I care about a lot, but I like his way of saying it. But I want to think about the world more like Jude does. Yeah, cool, thank you for letting me force you to go down. Yeah, the Jude rabbit hole with me and all of you listening. Thanks for bringing us down, the Jude rabbit hole.

Yeah, okay, next we're gonna do another little special out of the pocket kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, at some point in the recent past, I said, do you, John, what if we, I'm just started reading the Psalms together

and just making our way through the Psalms scroll? Yeah, and you rely, that's cool. So it's like, great, let's start with Psalms one in the end. Start at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, so that's all we'll do next week

is we'll read Psalm 1 together and then we get to that. We'll read Psalm 2 together. Yeah, and then we'll actually do a little bit more with those two Psalms. Yeah, we'll let you discover that along the way.

So next to the book of Psalms. The Bible project is a crowd-funded, non-profit, and we exist to help people experience the Bible as a unified story that leads to Jesus and everything that we make is free because it's been paid for already by thousands of people

just like you. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us. Everybody, this podcast is really cool. And I'm so honored to get to be a part of it and it is created and brought to you all

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