New York, New York with Lin-Manuel Miranda

[MUSIC PLAYING]

A love story is like a podcast. It's beautiful while it lasts. Is that the tagline? It's one of two tagline. OK, all right, that's fine.

A love story is like a song. It's beautiful while it lasts. Quite a good tagline, I would say. Yes. And pretty.

That's an apt and good tagline. Pretty nail on the head for this movie.

“That's the best way you could sell this movie accurately.”

The war was over and the world was falling in love again. That's a classic tagline for this movie as well. I remember that one. Yes. Now, I don't think that represents the film very well.

Because that makes you think that you're going to see a sweeping love story about a functional belief post-war romance. The war was not over. The war doesn't end. That is so true.

I just don't know. You know, I think it's arguable if these characters ever fall in love. Well, I, I, OK, fair enough. Sure. I think that's part of what makes the movie interesting too.

Break, also gets to the fundamental brokenness of this movie. What makes it such a thorny text. I think they do in a bad way. Yes. But I don't, I don't think they do.

You don't think they fall in love. I mean, we're all like that.

It's always meant to be too nice.

Improved the way to the scene where they fall in love and they never got it. Yes. Yeah. They fall into an intense connection.

“I guess is the best way to put it, right?”

Like, it's like, when, when he's screaming at her in the cab, and then she goes into labor, he does react. Maybe not, uh, with, you know, the sort of, uh, not romantically, but like, they're, and she, you know,

they, they, there's something there, right? There's an understanding between them that is deeper than they just don't like each other. But I don't know if I could call it love. Yes. It's part of what's interesting about this movie.

Conceptually, but is dramatically, almost impossible to execute, which leads to why this movie can be such a trying watch, is that I think it's two people who know how lonely they are, and know how much chemistry they have together performing, and they convince themselves that the other stuff works sometimes.

I look, we will talk about it. This movie is about, you know, putting a, a modern and complex relationship into a vintage setting. Can I throw out? Everyone was like, ah, you know,

everyone's here. I did it. It was like, ah, I hate it. I hate it. Oh, no.

This epics, you never have met it, right?

Why is he yelling at each other? May I throw out my hottest take right off the bat? Good. And I'm, I'm really, I was running through my head. I'm like, I think I, I stand by this in the pantheon of Martin Scorsese,

Robert De Niro collaborations. Is this the bottom of the list last and euro character you want to date? Yes. Don't only date. Honestly, fucking me.

I don't want to be on a subway car with this. Yeah. Much less watch of them. And then we're the heat did keep fear. Like, I know I'm the state fear.

It's the least criminal character out of all of them. And yet all the other guys undeniably are rizzing Jimmy Doyle off the stage. It's like if the guy from Kate fear wandered into the pantheon again. Yes, yes. I mean, like, my friend Caitlin, who's an, who loves this movie,

said this calls him the scariest man on two legs. That's for that. It's good. Yes. Yes.

And I mean, yeah. I fake limping.

Maybe never even served like this.

Yes. This is very true. Where do you get that Hawaiian shirt? But you're like every other scorsese dinner or character is on paper. The scariest man who ever walked on two legs and get in the execution.

You're like, I think I could fix him. And this guy is brilliant. Or you're like he's charming. There's something. Yeah.

My hottest take is that I think two thirds of the way through this podcast.

“You should interrupt it with the last walled podcast.”

Because that's basically what happened. He was like, I didn't, I didn't get it on this. But let me go make the last walls. Like it actually, it's actually crashed into, like, wherever you're interviewing, right? You know what's wild too?

That is exactly what happened. Basically, like, direct one to one with Jonathan Demi, making stop making sense in the middle of swing shift. Really? Which is like the movie that almost broke him.

Right. And then we'll be right fight to the stars and the studio. Can I go make it? Take it away from me. I can do something.

Can I do something fun? Right. Exactly. And they rebound hard. I don't know.

I think there was more drugs for the New York New York and last walls. It's my guess. There isn't. Then for swing shift. I noticed the credits.

That cocaine has an executive producer. Absolutely. Title on this. Okay. Executive producer by cocaine.

Okay. Right. Associate producer affairs. Everyone's just having like four affair.

Cocaine pictures presents an adultery production.

Columbia shouted out in the credits.

Well, that's Columbia fiction. Oh, I see. Oh, I see. Oh, right. You were, you thought it was just the country.

They wanted to give them a little. No. Right. Ben, then they're contributing. Thank you, guys.

This, of course, is United Artist Picture. I don't want people thinking I don't know my staff. Of course. Yeah. No, because there's right.

Johnny Boy means streets. Travis Pickle. I mean, that's a tough cookie. Travis Pickle. I will.

So we talked about our episode. Travis Pickle.

“I think the New Orleans means you can see it.”

You see why civil shepherd falls for it and misses the red light. The Jake Lamada. I am also just. Remembering the very obvious fact that Robert and you're a played a lot of tough cookies. I guess.

Then we're from pumpkin who's a dreambook compared to a lot of these guys. Yeah. Those were rehearsed scenes. Yes. That helps.

I will wait. No, wait. You think rehearsing is a helpful? You wouldn't know about this. You don't have any experience with that kind of thing.

You love to wing it. I love to, I love to move it. I love to wing it. I was reading a bit of Liza's autobiography on the train down here guys. And she talks about these scenes and being like, you know,

Marty and and Bob were very into improvising.

Which you know, never done.

In my first scene, I just said no. And then they were like, try again. I just said no in lots of different ways. And that is the first scene of this movie. It's just for saying no in as many ways as possible.

And then they forgot to write the part where they fall in love. Yeah. So wild. It is crazy. What they, yes, that they threw that at Liza.

Jimmy Conway, good fellows.

“Just going through the other scary guys.”

Obviously Max Cady and Cape Fear. Uh. I had Grandpa Warwick's grandpa. Eight Ace Rothstein and Casino. What's he going to fish his grandpa trailer?

Yeah. Just in your own. Yeah. So there's bad and dirty. No, sorry.

No. No more with bad and jack. Bad and jack. I think he is the nearer. You're dirty.

It's more with grandpa. Right. So should there be like a serious grandpa movie? Like, or should grandpa, maybe a person's movie? Like an autumn with grandpa.

Grandpa Claus. Grandpa Claus. That's fun. Grandpa Claus. And it's just like, you know, kids sitting on a side.

He's like, oh, what's going on with you? Yeah. I like the idea of kids sitting on De Niro. Santa Claus is lap and him treating it. Like any late night talk show interview.

He's ever done. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I try my best.

And what do you want to bring the present? I want to bring you.

“I think there's a bad guy in the White House right now, though.”

[LAUGHTER] Born in the USA place. What's this podcast, girlfriend? This podcast is called blank check with Griffin and David. So true.

Blank check blank check. Yes. With Griffin and David. Griffin and David. Yeah.

Griffin, Griffin. David, David. It's a podcast. I'm Griffin. Yeah.

I'm Griffin. That's the end of it. That's the last time I want to do it. Okay. It's a podcast about filmography's directors who have massive success early on in their

career and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. We're talking about the films of Martin Scorsese. This mini series is uncontroversially cold podcast fellas.

I've never felt more confident about the naming of a series.

Yeah. Podcast fellas. People think we didn't consider the other options podcast podcast. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. We got to make it funny. Podcast fellas brings me so much joy. Okay. I was talking to our producer Ben Hasley right before you guys came in.

And I argued. I said, this is like the only true bounce of his career. This is the only movie of his that did not work on any level when it came out. Sure. And has not been fully reclaimed.

He has other financial failures that were well regarded. He has other commercial. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But have become canonized. And it's like rude to call like Kunduna bounce totally because it's like, oh, you're Dalai Lama movie wasn't a huge hit like. It's a kind of a mean thing to say, but this is a classic. Yes.

And it is the classic bounce of like they were high on themselves. They were like, we can do anything. This movie can be as long as we want it to be. We can improvise every scene. We can do as much coke as possible.

Like I can have multiple affairs. His wife was having a kid. He was getting divorced. He's having an affair with lies in manality. She's having an affair with someone else as well.

I think. A baritana cough. A baritana cough. Everyone's just being insane. Basically at all times.

And that's one of those things where you watch the movie. And you're like, kind of feels like everyone's going crazy while they're making this. Like it's just right on the surface of it. It is so fascinating to like study the other films that came out in 1977. And that's the thing.

Well, that's the thing. It's other than stars. You guys have experienced in the Star Wars. A touch.

A little touch.

A pinch. You know, a little bit of that there. But you just read the stories about the making of this movie. And you just imagine across town the returns on Star Wars. And the people at United Artists going like, cool.

So we'll never make something like this again.

Yeah. Yeah. Let's close the door. What up. This entire like school of thinking is dying.

Who's our guests? Our guests. Okay. Today. And this is the first time I'm saying it a little prematurely.

“You're about to be coined a Disney legend, correct?”

Yeah. You are. By the time this era as I will. You're a Disney. I let have the park.

What in the bank that befitting a Disney? Yeah. What is, yeah. What is that? It's basically, I think it's sort of a wish upon a story.

Your dreams come true. In perpetuity. As memorialized in the Disney animation feature. Yes. Yes.

You know, you know, you. Yeah. It's not me. I'm going to do both. Played me.

Yeah. Yeah. No. This Sunday, D23, they like, they give kind of the like silver watch. It's like a hall of fun.

A lot of Disney stuff. Right. Yes. I mean, I thought I banked it with odd life of Timothy Green. But.

Yeah. Right. I have to write a lot more. Now. Yes.

This is the legend. He wants to be one in the leaves. The weirdest Disney legend. I know. Yeah.

You know. No. The weird. Okay. I will tell you the weirdest sub strata of Disney legends is that Disney owns a lot of things

that aren't associated with Disney. Sure. There's lots of like, yes, piano folks. Right. I guess.

Right. Right. The court cost us Disney legend or whatever. I saw Bob cost us at the west side. Diner on Broadway in 69th Street.

Just holding court. Yeah. That is just a guy.

“I think that anyone wants to talk to if he's just sitting at a diner.”

You know what I mean? Everyone was just like bothering him. And he was just like, yeah. Yeah. No.

I remember the 96 world series, but, you know, he's immediately getting into it with them. Our guest today is lemon one more hand. Oh, thanks. To the show. Have I shared this story before that I saw Al Gore at a Delta sky lounge?

And he was working that buffet. And I said, this man would have won the president. If they had to. If they had to. If he would have won the president.

He would have won the president. And he would have won the president. And he would have won the president. He would have won the president. He would have won as a prize.

Like at a claw machine. No, I just watched him work this room.

And I was like, this guy was never allowed on the public stage.

And I don't know. Right. He was too boring on stage. If he had non-correct it yet. Or they were like, this is a little too loose.

And it wasn't like he was doing anything wild. But he was like walking through the buffet line. And he was like mashed potatoes. I want to. But my stomach is going to kill me on this one.

And I was like, this guy is too private. And I was like, this guy is too private. And I was like laughing. Like you're telling tales out of school. I feel like sky lounge.

I don't know. It didn't even feel like there's a cone of silence. A little bit of silence. Like there's a luchy as the Disney West. That's like that's like part of my DNA.

Yeah. A little bit. A little bit. I mean, I feel weird knowing that. I mean, although it's a very funny story.

It was it was just incredible. Yeah. But I imagine Bob Cossus was a similar kind of. You know, I got to shout out the Disney legend process. I'm really not seeing any like odd names on this.

This is all people where I mean, they're like, well, this is an anime. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited to meet the next legend. Voice Bell.

Yeah. Yeah. Bell and Meg. Oh, thanks for the legend. Your list is great.

Well, for one, Brooke Heimer is on your list, which Ross is incredible.

Uh, as is Dwayne Johnson. Uh-huh. The Ross. They call him sometimes. Of course.

You wrote music for with Moana. Did you thank you for that? Yes. And you know, what did you say? And what did you say?

I said of course. Of course. That's how it's unique. Who's a true Disney legend. Yeah.

Yes. This is true.

“Who sort of became the John Ratson burger of like Disney animation, right?”

Yeah. Let's throw him into every movie. A deserving quantity play. He has certainly put in the war. And indeed Susan Egan, who is Bell.

Uh, and Meg and Hercules. Uh, and uh, is the best. And my daughters had a big beauty in the Beastface lately. So I've been hearing a lot of her voice. Her beautiful, perfect voice.

Uh, I still think it's crazy that I'm viewed in the Beast. Though that the book, she's so proud that she read is Jack and the Beanstalk. And then the guy's like, yeah, whatever. And she's like, oh, no one understands anything in this town. And I'm like, I think they just don't want to hear the plot of Jack and the Beanstalk.

It's not that he knows. A tale. You know, yes. This is a man. He owns like a bakery or whatever.

He's got to make bread. And she's like trying to tell about Jack and the Beanstalk. Not only is that one of the only like real canonical public domain fairy tales that Disney hasn't adapted to a feature length film, but they like announced it 10 years ago. And canceled it.

Yeah, they've tried. There's the Mickey short that I think is part of fun in fancy free. But like, they themselves know there's not that much juice in the Beanstalk. It can't film 90 minutes. No.

I mean, that's true.

It into the woods.

It's a really good stuff. But obviously builds a lot around it. Yeah, but it is then to the woods is funny. And there's the cow. You know, we love into the woods.

Yeah. Have we said his name? We did. Okay. Missy legend.

He's here.

He's here for the third time.

For my writer. Thank you. Yes. So you're too away from becoming a blank check legend. Which is an esteemed class.

Oh, boy. Five time. Five time. Five time. Five time.

Five time. Yeah. Yes. You can hasn't even gotten that. Yeah.

Please. But welcome to the show. Always a pleasure. That's really nice of you to say. You're quite busy.

I feel. You're very busy, man. Now the first time you did this podcast was for all that jazz. I was over-prepared. Sure.

No. No. You're over-prepared. But you brought the juice. Yeah.

It is often thrown out. Our listeners. Protective as they are. Once a month, Ring their hands and go as the show becoming too big.

Is it just going to be a press stop? Yeah.

And then there will always be the argument of.

“I think when very famous people have come on the show, they have been good.”

They have been well curated. And people will always say, remember when Lynne came on so prepared. All that jazz. As a positive. Oh, as a he knew the show he was on, he came correct.

Indeed. But we finished recording that. And off Mike, you told us that you were about to start working on New York, New York. That's right. Yeah.

So when we commit to doing this. Email you. And go, hey, know your crazy busy. Any chance you want to do this. You make a big confession.

I have not seen the movie New York, New York. And this is my, and again, I'm nervous because first time I came in guns blaze in with a research and books. This is the first time I said yes to you guys without having seen the movie. Right.

Right. You're out there. Now at this point. Your other appearances. Hooker childhood favorite.

Yeah. I love it. Yeah. But you did, of course, work in some capacity, not in, not in a huge capacity, right? But I don't actually know.

Yeah. Yeah. So musical New York. And I was instructed by the homie John Canter as we refer to him. Yes.

99 in thriving. Don't watch the movie. I told him I haven't seen the movie. And he said, oh, don't watch it. It has very little to do with what we're making.

It was. And it was not on the, he was like, he wasn't knocking the film. He was just like, we're doing a different thing. They're goal with the stage adaptation was to sort of tell a lot of New York stories through the lens and Jimmy and Francine were like one sub plot.

But the horn player had his own sub plot. And it was sort of like a, well, if we, if we had one more workshop, it's one of the things like it would have become the story of the making of the band in the major court. And, and like lots of different slices of different strata of New York life. And then there was also kind of becoming a home for orphaned candor and abtunes and just candor tunes.

Right. Because of course Fred Ab had had left this mortal coil. Yes. But there was, there was stuff. Yeah.

But there was, there was that found a home in that show. A song I'd written with John called cheering for me now. Yes. That's how I got involved actually.

“John kind of sheepishly asked me, hey, I think the song would work as the,”

It's the opening number. I imagine I said, great. This is a show tune without a show. Like go with my blessing. And then I said, and if you need any more lyrics to be a joy to write with you. And so I wrote lyrics for like six more songs on that thing with him,

including like kind of just having tiny touches to like some

candor and abtunes that had never found a home.

My favorite one in the show, which is not in the movie is a song called Light. That's about Manhattan. That's the Manhattan Hedge moment, right? This is like, that was the cool part of the show. I saw this show to be clear. I saw it.

It was a very cool part of the show, because the show was like incredibly big. Like it had this crazy set. Yeah. And then right in the Tony for production design. It won a, it won a set design.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to set design. scenic design.

Right. And it had like what didn't Susan Strowman do the choreography. Yeah. It's really outstanding number. The hell of the thing.

Yeah. Amazing dancing. There was like a whole thing where they were all dancing on the girders. You know, you know, like the guys up on the girders building the skyscrapers. Yeah.

And it's like this movie. I think there's a great show in there. Yeah. Where they had it. There were there were too many stories.

And we didn't want to go endless workshops because our composer was 97 years old. And so like we kind of rushed to Broadway for the right reasons. Like out of love. Like we want to make this and we want to make it with John.

“I think there's a, there's a world in which some of those subplots are thinned out.”

Essence of the show is is in there, but the same issue with the show is the issue with this movie, which I just recently saw, which is God Jimmy's an asshole. Right. And even in the show. Even though you chilled him out a little bit.

Yes. Still an asshole. And and everyone who sees the show and sees the movie goes, why is she with them?

Yeah.

And it's tough to shake it.

And like I remember when the show is announced, I was like, they can't be adapting that movie. Cause like, the fuck that movie can't be. Yeah. Broadway, right. You know, cause like, right.

Like he owes it her induces labor. She has a baby and he's like, no thank you. And I'm like, you can't be ending Broadway shows that way. Like that's not really how you send the tourists, you know, on to 46th Street. You know.

And right. Obviously the show didn't really do that, but right. It does fundamentally have the thing of like this guy can't get out of his own way. Right. Like the main character can't get out of his own way.

And put in the Scorsese movie, it's more hostile even than that. You are like, I wish he'd stop fighting with everyone, but you're also just kind of like, just, yeah. Like personality disorder. Yeah. I also, I was thinking about inside Lumin Davis while rewatching this.

Cause we sure that fairly recently. We did. I do like that movie.

I do like the comb of this movie.

Yes. That is a movie where I got fundamentally cannot get out of his own way.

“I keep fucking shut up and his talent. And his talent, right?”

Yeah. But they just boil it pretty early. They just 40 minutes before we see this man hold a sack. They show his fleeting talent in. Right away.

Right away. They sure how good he is at hollering it people. Right. No doesn't exist. It's awesome.

Yep. Yeah. Okay. But you think you've had inside Lumin Davis? I think that movie as maddening as it is to watch the sky fuck up.

There's something in the way, not just the performance. But I think the way that film is written and the way the characters presented. Where you feel bad for him against your better judgment. It's like the way the carried Mulligan character views him. We're just like, I fucking hate that you have any hold on me.

That you have such a sad sack quality that you make people worry about you. And Jimmy Doyle is so high functioning that you're not worried about him ever. No. You're just like just worried about anyone in his or her. Anyone near him.

He'll the fuck out and don't talk to anybody. I do need to call out. Marika Brownlee, who works on the podcast. The operations manager. Yes.

Allegiance. Saw. The Broadway production. Three times. Wow.

And she's impressive. Given that it did not run for even one year. Yeah. Right. Like yeah.

No. Yeah. Yeah. Refirt's a Jimmy Doyle has quote my husband. Yeah.

She has a sentence performance. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I'm a quote. Ryan.

They're talented. Yeah. I thought so. Yeah. But it is one of those things.

Like Scorsese's main thought is. The dynamite idea the center of this movie as he described it to lies in manally was, I grew up in New York City. Seeing Hollywood make films about New York City. And those two realities couldn't have been more different.

What was outside my window. What I saw on the screen. And I wanted to put the real New York inside the fake New York. And you're like, holy shit.

“You should be the greatest movie of all.”

You're telling me Martin Scorsese made that with De Niro and Liza Manelli at their pee. At their pee? Yes. I mean, and he made it in between taxi driver and raging bull. So he was at his end last month.

You know, sprinkled in there too. Like so isn't this good? I end. And guess what the title song is. You've heard it.

It's a good song. We talked about on our fucking loser episode. Any heckerlings loser about how that is a movie where it's spawning teenage Dirtbag by Weedus is the weird example of a song so largely outshadowing the movie that it came from.

I don't know if we failed to mention in that. New York New York. And it's best this movie exists as a seed for that song to exist. A song that it's impossible to like consider had to be created. A song that feels like it was placed on this earth like water.

And you know the story that like out of spite. It's a spite song. It's a spite song. Because they so and can't just told this story many times. I'm not telling tales out of school.

Candern have Fred and John play the songs they've written for the movie. And the world goes round happy endings. Bangor, bangor, bangor. And they wrote another song called New York New York. That was like given to them.

It had to be called New York New York. They were threatened with legal action from the on the town team. And so this is a lot now. It's actually called theme. Yes New York New York New York.

Yeah. And they play it. And the Nero doesn't like it.

“And again, have you heard of what's on your character?”

Because it's the one his character is supposedly wrote. Right. He's like smart. Not good enough. Does this song like do we know this song?

No. By the way, John's like I don't even remember. Right.

It was sort of like they basically left the room.

Marty very apologetically asking them to try again on the theme. And then me like fucking actor telling us how to write a song. And they banged out New York New York in 45 minutes.

He's just like.

He's just like. He's just like.

He's just the first four notes of the melody of the song.

Right. It's like that. It's right. It's just him playing the first four notes until he starts. The melody.

And they just bang the shit out. And it's. And that's why it's in New York. Anthem is it's made to say. It's got an I'm talking about it for you.

You want a jump? You want a jump? And they write. The Anthem. That like they play Liza's version when they lose.

And Frank's version when the Yankees went. Yes. It's both. Can you do both? I think it's rude that they do that.

I will say. Why? Because they play Liza's when they win and Frank's when they hunt. That's true. Yes.

But that speaks to the cultural memory. Of course. Frank's like control of the song. And if you ask. On a boy.

In John they're like. We're very grateful that he recorded it and made it to hit. But like he changed all the lyrics. He will wrote the lyrics. A number one they write.

That's it. He did it his way. He just like six hours. He just wanted to get some. Same A one in there.

Yeah. A little bit.

“I think he's just top of the heap twice.”

Yeah. He's just kind of going. And that's the classic. But look. I mean, it's not true.

We've talked about it's not true. And we've watched Ocean's 11. We just an outroversion. Yeah. Which is a bit of a snooze.

Had a great nap. It. Yes. Sleepiest movie. You know, he's one of those guys.

We're like, well, this guy's. You know, sort of an asshole. But then you're also like. He's kind of the one. It's the best.

He's the one. Yeah. He's so good at this. Like, you know, he can't really deny. And I love Liza's version.

Oh, it's incredible. Even more. Right. I mean, I defend this movie. And I've seen it three times now.

Okay. And gradually the first. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. The first 90 minutes.

I'm like, I like this movie. Am I sure I like this movie? And then the last hour, just like pays off. So great. The hour is the reason it's a movie.

It's the reason it's a movie. And by the way, they shot that first. Yes.

“I think they were a little more together.”

Yeah. We're shooting the musical sequence. Vincent Menelli is visiting his daughter on set. Right.

And like, if I can Marty's like, I've never been so happy.

Right. And I'm sure Marty also was like, I want to impress my like icon that I worship like, and I'm right. And also. Yeah.

And what they just forgot to write the part where they fall in love. Because so they thumb for they. They're way there. From. Fucking hell.

And it's for now a play. The fact that the first 90 minutes are such a slog. The last hour, even more like redemptive. But I don't think the movie couldn't be more functional up until that point. And still work.

But I find amazing is that they they cut, you know, turning like a four hour version. Smithing and they like it's perfect. Yeah. And.

And what I find amazing is that what they cut for theatrical release was happy ending. This is what's crazy. I was like, there's the whole first third. Yes. Like start with the audition, like literally make a meet queue at the audition where he's got to go to the audition.

Yeah. And begrudgingly accompanies him there. And they fall in love because of their talent. It is amazing. Something.

Yeah. Of this long movie is. Jimmy fucking up a meeting. There's like eight different scenes that's like, let's meet with this guy. Jimmy's just being a pit.

You won't believe how much he's going to fuck this up. There.

“You're like, I think we got a lot like three of these meetings.”

Yes. Then was asking me about the differences, right? Yes. It was released. It was released around two and a half hours.

Yes. Yes. It was released right after Star Wars. And they were like, you got to just leave 30 40 minutes off of this thing. So they released it a little over two.

And the two.

It's basically the only difference or two sequences.

Happy endings, which is like the release of the three minutes. Yeah. So gorgeous. It exists to get to happy endings and her singing New York. That's why you make this movie.

And to cut one of those two things out is absurd. And then the whole extended sequence at the the very red night club where they kick him out in the tunnel of the light bulbs and everything. Which I would argue if you're going to include one sequence of Jimmy fucking up a deal. That's the one to keep.

They cut out two of the best things in the movie, which are both like 15 minutes long. And they just. Right. Because they were like slowing the movie down. Which sure.

But as you're saying, right, the slowness it actually already happened. But no, they released it 155. Then they cut it to 135. That's what the European cut was. Yes.

It's now because the 155 cut was was only out. They're very pretty. Right. Was thrown away when the thing basically immediately bombed. And then it didn't have happy.

Right. And then they re-release it in 1981. Marty and Bobby, like, did a good one again. And they were. Can we redeem this one a little bit?

And, you know, by the 80s or what people are sort of like, I get what you wer...

Because it's the kind of happy ending for a second though. Yeah. Because that last sequence is such a perfect dream ballet in the style of Vincent Menelies. Great movies, an American in Paris. That fucking dream ballet is the reason to move the exit.

Yeah. The band we're like they put on their quote unquote show. Yes. And it's eight musical numbers. I've nothing to do with each other.

But then there's the incredible, like, basis for Michael Jackson's smooth criminal like that.

Unbelievable. It's active sequence. Yeah. That is the most stunning thing you will ever see in your life. And is also what's amazing about those dream ballet.

They're the movie in musical miniature. What's incredible about the happy ending sequence is it is an incredible movie and miniature for a movie that doesn't exist. Exactly. It's because that will not what we've seen advertised. Yes.

It's a more interesting movie. Oh my god. If it didn't irritate her and met cute at a movie theater, like the beginning of happy end. Like, I wanted to do that. Like, I'd watch anything that happy ending is alluded to.

Something, you know, it costs an incredible amount of money to make it the happy ending sequence. And it is, you're right. It's one of the first things you've done it is. Yeah. If you're listening in a whole new movie, just start the movie.

“At whatever that time, can we get them the time code to just start it at the musical scene like that?”

There's the huge issue, of course, that this movie is not really streamable. I just don't have to watch it this. About three and a half hours ago, when I sat down to watch this movie, that it's just nowhere. It's nowhere to be found. I had to watch some weird, like, Russian streaming version.

And I was very unclear of even what version I was watching.

I guess, I had a, you watched, I had a special edition Blu-ray that I had never watched.

But I bought it back when I was. I, you know, like, you're a system being, like, probably he's got a disc, right? Like, brushing on fucking iTunes. Like, yeah. And I've been like that.

That Blu-ray came out like, 15 plus years ago. It's out of print. It just got re-issued on 4K, which came out like when you got to it. Does that have his video introduction, right? Is he basically like, we were trying something.

Yes. Sorry. We were trying something, sorry. I mean, that's absolutely how I was introduced to this movie. Was in, like, documentaries about Scorsese or the history of film, or TV specials, or, like, biographies, or whatever.

“I just remember watching some TV doc thing where they go, like,”

like, and then, of course, in 1977, came New York, New York. And I don't know if it was anything about Scorsese, Deniro, or Manelli. But just all three of them in talking heads going, like, we were trying something. And people got angry. Because it also has become part of the narrative of, we gave the filmmakers too much power.

Uh-huh. That was a mistake. Yes. It's like in the heavens. It's like, all have very much, right, sorcerer, like those movies of, like,

okay, New Hollywood's over. Guys, time for you all to have some guardrails. I can tell you, I'm going to open the dossier here that Martin Scorsese, one day, open the Hollywood reporter. I guess after he's made taxi driver. No, no, no, he's made taxi driver. He's made mean streets.

And I guess he's maybe made Alice doesn't live here anymore. Uh, just reads that Irvin Winkler, the Hollywood mega producer. Like, you know, a big name wants to make a movie about, like, the Big Bandira called New York, New York. And he's just like, I want to do that. I did, like, I love Big Band music.

I grew up with it. I loved, you know, jazz and, like, my parents were obsessed with Django Reinhard and Stephanie Carpelli or whatever. And like, I, my parents, like, you know, like pictures of my family,

“members, like, in world where two uniforms, like having come, right?”

Like, this is all in the super me. And I fucking love old Hollywood musicals. Like, I love in sentimentally. Like, I love all this shit.

What's awesome is he basically, despite being the king of New Hollywood.

Right? Really big nerd. No, but beyond that, he's also like, I got to Hollywood too late. I grew up wanting to make a big old artificial Hollywood show movie. And I got here and I got stuck being the fucking figurehead of the lousy New Hollywood moment. Like, it's so fun to think about that now when we all idolize what he represented.

But that's like what is what's happening right now? Well, Chris for Nolan, where he's like, stroking his chin being like crimson tide is one of the great films of all time. And I'm like, I agree with you, Chris. But clearly, you just wish it was the 90s. Like, you know, he's my, and I love the movies you're making right now.

But he's like, that was a good era. Right. You know, Scorsese shows up in the 70s. Yeah. He's like, I wish it was the 40s.

He says the movie, he's thinking about the man I love, which is like a raw, a wall 40s film noir, which has all these Gershwin songs in it, road house,

Which is like a Richard Wiedmark movie.

And then obviously the menelie, technical or films.

“Like, that's a Valentine to Hollywood business idea.”

It is so funny to hear him say that in these interviews. This movie is a Valentine to nobody. Like, I mean, that's, I mean, I guess it's like, like stuff like happy endings. Yeah, I had a little bit, but mostly reminds me of that one line in Xanado

and don't come from his Xanado lovers. They're out there with honor skates. It's like the 40s meet the 80s. And it's like, I don't think those were meant to meet my guy. Like, I don't think they're actually doing it.

They don't taste great together. And that's Xanado. But like, they say it was such pride in the text of Xanado. And that's sort of what happens here is like, I'll do my kind of thing, but I'll use old school Hollywood sets.

And I'll use the daughter of Judy Garland star of these menelie movies as like a proxy for that era. And frankly, when you have like, Deneoro, like, making shit up on an old set with Well, he's a menelie there.

The deck stacked against Deneoro. Like, he's the one who looks like he's in the wrong movie. He does. Yeah, he's, he's the weirdest fit for this movie.

Yeah, it doesn't really work.

As much as he had spent like this early part of his career. If you're like kind of being able to do anything. Well, it's like sandwiching between these two guys together, creating two of the greatest performances in the history of cinema.

“The leading man roles that will be studied by everyone forever.”

And that go against all the roles of the kind of character you want to place at the center of the movie. A character that no one would root for, all of that. And this is the one where they just clearly think they're untouchable. And it is bizarre because watching these early films,

we just keep being like, God, Deneoro was so fucking hot. He's so handsome. He's so charming. It's hard to place yourself back in that headspace where you were like, he was like exciting and dangerous in full of life.

You know? And so like, we weren't saying in the taxi driver episode, you're like, you kind of see it at moments. You kind of see why civil pepper is tricked by him. Yeah.

You kind of see how Ripper Pumpkin could maybe get a good five minutes together. He says like 20 words and got father two in your life. Yeah, that's fucking young brando. Absolutely. But there he is.

The first one. Fascinating thing about this movie to me. He's the first one. He is the first one. He's on the original.

He's on the original. He's on the original. He's on the original. The original. Can someone please make a poster?

He's on the original. He's on the original. Yes, right. Or put the original. Yes.

Anyway, he's great. Also at grandpa class. No, I was going to say the fact that this movie is developed

and he basically concurrently with taxi driver and Scorsese even said that he thought he was going to make this first.

And that because taxi driver was lower budget. Suddenly the money came together quickly.

“I think after Dineros Oscar win and that got fast tracked.”

Can you imagine the reality in which the order of these two films is flipped? Because if he makes this before taxi driver, there are rails. There's no way they let him go or just drive or even happen. Or it doesn't happen the way it did. Yeah, it does fuck it up so badly that no one ever write.

Do you like to film Submarine Scorsese? I am a big fan of the film. Major admirers. And you like taxi driver say. Yes.

Some of the people. I saw a great his entire catalog. Well, he's right. Right. Well, his, yes.

As we sort of said, his pitch here is like it'll look like a film. From the 40's. Right. But it will hat. The sets will be fake.

But we'll approach the characters in the foreground like a documentary. We'll combine the two techniques. So we're kind of like, you know, we're bringing in like Italian nihilism into like a, you know, phony looking Hollywood movie brilliant, right? And I can imagine the producers being like, yeah, yeah.

That'll work. Okay. I mean, sure. And that's going to be expensive, huh? And he's like, yeah, it's going to be expensive.

I'm like, okay. Well, sure. We brought it to your own license. And Ellie, though, they're famous. Like, that's good.

Right. And she can sing. And he's smart. He's methods. So he'll learn the saxophone or whatever.

And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone.

And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone.

He'll learn the saxophone.

And he'll learn the saxophone.

And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone.

And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone.

And he'll learn the saxophone.

And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone.

And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone. And he'll learn the saxophone.

“If I do different people work on scripts, that Marty and Danero keep going like, "Not good enough."”

Yeah, I do like, "And fun-a-e." I think about that all the time. That's why I need to do a Jagger. Yeah, I love that he's a fan of that song. But he also does about how you Jagger about that.

Oh, what do you say? He's like, "Well, you know, you want things to be at a certain level." I love they didn't deny it. Yeah. 10 toes down.

No fun-a-e. He also says during that bit that Mick Jagger also at one point went, "Dia Coke." And someone just like brought one to his hand. He's like, "It's just another plane of existence." Yeah, yes, yes.

Shine a light. Coming to this mini-series. We're going to do something. Well, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger.

Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger.

Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger.

Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger.

Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. Yeah, I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger.

I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger.

I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger. I want to talk about Mick Jagger.

“I guess, but he's Marty Martin says everyone was just trying to improve it by improvisation.”

All the time the film never really had an ending.

We came up with like a dozen endings and never like found one that worked. Or when you know, a Winkler helps Jay Cox, who's a big Marty collaborator helps helps. Can I interject for one second with a license? Please, please. Again, I'm also still with us.

A lot of these people are still with us. And again, I was reading her autobiography on the way down here. The salient chapters. And you have to understand how much lies up was not an improviser.

She, there's an amazing video.

I'm sure it's YouTubeable of Kendra and Ebb singing their own songs.

“It was like a songwriters on songwriting series.”

It had like eight people and everyone realized no one cares about songwriters singing their own stuff. But it's Fred singing like some of Liza's standards lies with the Z ring them bells. And when you watch it, you'll be like, holy shit. Fred Ebb's every mannerism or Liza's mannerisms. Like he taught her how to sing, he taught her how to use her hands.

Like they were really like instrumental in helping her find her own persona distinct from her mother, which was a huge shadow.

It's amazing to watch Fred Ebb perform because you're just watching a man performing as Liza Menelli.

But it was him first. I tell you that story to like imagine then being thrown into a situation where it's just like we're going to make it up. When like she has been so like she is a like an age shows that we perform right. Yeah. She's like you're going to work it out rigorously until it's perfect.

Yeah. I'm so excited to see how it's going to be. And I'm so excited to see how it's going to be. I'm so excited to see how it's going to be. I'm so excited to see how it's going to be.

I'm so excited to see how it's going to be. I'm so excited to see how it's going to be. I'm so excited to see how it's going to be. I'm so excited to see how it's going to be. I'm so excited to see how it's going to be.

I didn't want to look like an idiot. And so I really learned that shit.

“And I think I did a good job on the tenor set.”

Every time he picks up the sacks, I was blown away. Yeah, and how much he sells land. Fucking Clemens and he looks like he's doing it. It's it's really, really good. I want to just throw out a Julia Cameron who was courses he's wife at the time.

Did a lot of writing work on this. She gets a special call out giant special thanks to Julia Cameron's standalone credit card at the end of the movie. It's just an interesting guy is for me. I think the backstory.

Yes, a lot of heavy size. She gave birth to their daughter, in 1976. The way in a long go west. And what was the mascot?

Cardinals. I visited the campus once it seemed really nice. When I was a pre-fresh, the reason I went to west is because I snuck into a hitchcock class. And she was a TA.

She was graduating the year as a pre-fresh. It's cool. I know it's lush with the medical scorsese in a discussion of bunny lake as missing. I want to go here.

Michael Bay. Michael Bay. I thought you're about to say friend of the show Michael Bay. Friend of the show Michael Bay. Yes.

Friends the show rates in Torin Jordan fish. That's the segment they could go on far too long. But west film.

But basically like she's the way Marty puts it.

I've read and it is like he's like, she gives birth to my daughter. And I know we're getting divorced. I know I'm not going to be present for this kid. Like this is all happening in his head.

And it's so in the movie. So in the movie. He's just like, I'm a piece of shit. I'm abandoning a child. Obviously in the movie.

And it's funny because in like the Mr. Scorsese doc that they did recently. Like the medic is there. And she's like, we figured it out. We figured it out. You know what I mean? Like, and he as did he as sensibly.

Like we figured it out here. It's so good. Because everyone's like, you know, happy to be candid at that point. By the time they did that.

“I just, I think it is sometimes over discussed the Catholic guilt.”

And spurses his work because that's a very obvious read. I think what it's kind of equally present is him just kind of constantly trying to study why the fucker men wired this way.

And for the first half of his career.

He's studying that while he's making all of the mistakes. He's doing them in real time. And he's kind of putting himself on the slab.

Being like, the fuck is it with our brains?

You know, not to be like binary about it.

Yeah.

“And, and obviously to his credit, the moment the pregnancy.”

Storyline starts. You're like, okay, now we're in a movie. Yeah, there's something I love. It's not just a non. A courtship of nagging before he did it.

Well, he's like, tour. Yeah, it's like, oh, okay, I can tell he is not going to be father of the year. If he's even in this stick around to the, like, there's something happening. And, and something interesting is suddenly happening with dinner as character because he's saying, yeah, I'll be there.

Maybe have to be like, there's, there's something going on. That's where the movie really starts. And I, I remember seeing this at the Metro graph maybe 10 years ago. And you get it. It's playing to a lot of silence. You know, and there's music in the movie, but there's not even a lot of musical numbers up until

that point. There's like two or three in the first 90 minutes.

And you get to that scene in the delivery room after the characters just like kind of hit his bottom. And the audience starts like gasping at the shit he's saying. And for the first time you're like, he's bad in a way that's dramatically interesting.

And yes, it's no longer just frustrating. You're avoiding making eye contact with a fool.

“And I think that guy that they depict for the first half of the movie is a real guy.”

He's a very specific guy. He's well observed. He's just a guy you run away from. You don't want to spend time with him. He's not shitty in a compelling way, which is what these two guys are usually really good at figuring out how to put on screen.

[MUSIC] One more thing from lies that I do think is interesting. She said, my singing performance is very different than anything I've done before, because I studied the way big, big band singer sang, even how they held their hands. You didn't go out as the star you went out as part of the arrangement.

And I went so overboard that I almost backed up too much, and I guess wasn't being kind of like dominant enough. I don't know what she sort of means by that. But she said she'd studied it all as a kid. And it was very fun to tailor herself to big bandera singing. I don't know what your take is on that land.

I'll let me back up even just to step before that, which is the other tragedy of, this is Corsese's only quote unquote musical. Is it's not even like a musical? Not real. Like they're unique.

They're all diagetic except the musical number at the end. It's her in a musical or in a movie musical. And when you think of the movies, he reveres. And the way they go from speech to song. Think about like, I got rhythm in American Empires.

And you got the little kids going, I got rhythm. I got, it's so fucking delightful. The way they manage that leap that we take for granted when we go to the theatre, but it's really hard to do in a movie of like going from, hey, how you doing today too, you know.

So it is. I need six eggs. I need six. She needs to get that woman's bag. As someone who feeds this song essentially six eggs a day.

I understand her energy in in that song. It is the number.

“It is the it is the the barrier to entry for some people, right?”

With musicals that they just are like, I don't buy it when they start singing. Even if it's on Broadway or whatever. It does, it does feel like the hardest thing to get people over. I don't know what to do.

Imagine that same opening sequence was is genuinely stunning. Like it is. Scorsese flexing on us like hundreds and hundreds of people. And it's deep. It's like victory day.

And then there's the arrow pointing at dinner in the crowd. And so incredible. Imagine they'd gone inside that ballroom. And dinner was playing sacks and sing in a song. Suddenly I love this guy.

Even if he's a total piece of shit. He's a total piece of shit. But if you just had the. Just the wherewithal to like lean all the way in and make a fucking musical. It is what I find most fascinating about this film.

There's the sort of anti musical that people attempt a couple times a decade. That is well, people have this barrier to entry. What you're talking about David. They just think it's corny or it strains cadule here. They can't buy in at that point.

So can you make a musical where it doesn't feel like a musical. It doesn't have the tone of a musical. Or structurally, let's like this. And I feel like those are often made by people who secretly hate musicals. There's a bit of a disability to this.

The number one they love it and they're ashamed. Yes. I don't feel that he's ashamed here. It feels like he's trying so hard to prove a different point. Even though he loves this so unabashedly.

Where you're just like you wish someone could have grabbed him and gone like Marty. If these dialogue scenes are 90 seconds. And you have five more numbers that actually play out in full.

And you go off in the first 90 minutes.

People might enjoy watching this.

Liza, just give the to flesh up behind the scenes drama. She is of course married to Jack Hailey, Junior. The son of Jack Hailey, the Tin Man, who starred in the Wizard of Oz with her mother, Judy Garland. Which is already crazy. And she's having an affair with Mikael Burstikov, who might be the hottest person alive right then.

I feel like you've been making this case a couple times for each of us. He is unbelievable. And you're at the critic circle where he presented, right? You know, he presented at the New York Film Critic Circle last year. And he's, I mean, how old is he?

Like in this late 70s or whatever. You know, and you're still just kind of like, he's 78. He's still just kind of like, this is like the coolest fucking crime in the world. Like this guy is really hot and real-time. I'm old enough to remember his arc on sex in the city.

Were like, is that British enough? And then he leaps across a pile of garbage and like, oh, my god, he's the hottest old man alive. He was the hottest of the scarves. Yeah.

“That's what I did him dirty in my opinion.”

Absolutely. So she's already an italian with him. And then, of course, Scorsese and Liza began a romantic doubt. And then of course, she's an italian. Yeah, he's magnetic. And of course, then he also directs her in the act, which was a sort of failed show.

I really want to discuss this. Yeah, because it's not in the in the dock at all. Right. Just they just say we're sticking to the movies. It's a candor in Ebb.

It's a candor in Ebb. There's in 70s haven't inherited. Like Hamlet's was going to do it. Then didn't want to do it. Right.

And it was initially called shine it on. Yes. Something like that. And again, like, you have to understand can't are like her theater parents. Like they truly take care of her.

And there's a very I'm I'm holding my copy of colored lights, which is candor and Ebb sort of oral history of their own stuff. Like they did a book where they just talk about their own things. And there's a very sweet quote where Fred says something to the effect of. She was very adamant that Scorsese could do anything.

And he had to direct the show even though he had never been near theater.

In his life. Yeah.

“But the sweet thing he says is like, I think she kind of figured we could get her out of any jam.”

Which is like, you know, and I think she knew she was on its subconscious level. She was in a emotional mess, a drug fueled mess with him that needed detangling. She brings him along for this. And Fred tells the stories he literally would go to rehearsals, film it, and go home and edit it to try to figure out how to direct. Like theater, which is why it's not how you're supposed to do it.

And canter goes to great pains in the book to say like, listen, he was Marty was a wonderful guy. He was not malevolent. They were just really bad into drugs. And I think that was his way to try to get his head around how deep in overs. He was like, let me do the one thing I do know how to do.

And maybe that will give me a clue on how to do this. And they tell the story in the book. I recommend the book. And also we recommend the drum book. And also we recommend the drum book.

Chopper wonderful. Yes, thank you. Where I live. And I live upstairs like the fan of. And the, but they tell the story about like them getting to rehearsal.

“Again, this is like Broadway rehearsal at like two in the afternoon.”

And they say that they were in this horrible wreck and are neck hurts. And the more they ask about the wreck, the more the story starts to fall apart. And it's just sort of like, no, drugs and tiredness got them their laid. And she was very embarrassed that she was sort of in it so deep. And like it's, it's very heartbreaking.

And she, in her book, she says she's the one who had to fire him. Basically because she's the one who insisted on him. And then a guy were champion kind of came in and steered it towards a show, like being an actual show.

The thing, Kendra, now, Kendra never just so embarrassed because it was like not working on

fundamental like this isn't even like, I have a scene of professionality because no directors touch this yet. And then, you know, steers are towards her first her third Tony. She unbelievably wins a Tony. Yes, for it. Decided largely being forgotten and of sort of a flop.

Right. I do want to note that it's ticket prices were 25 dollars, which at the time was an all-time high. And now that would be considered quite cheap for Broadway. I don't know if you guys know that. But yeah, it was a bomb or whatever.

But it's just so crazy to think that in the middle of all this Marty tried and failed to direct a Broadway show. Which is hard to do. Yeah. Like directing a Broadway show is not something you can phone in. Correct.

Correct. Now, if it is something you can phone in, I'm available. I'll do it. David's ready to phone shit in. If it's that I show up to the theater and I'm like, everything looks great.

You guys are beautiful. Beautiful.

When I get home, Liza tells a story that apparently on the first day Marty comes in and says,

Where is my dressing room? Oh, sure. And they don't have a lot of little Becky.

Oh.

That's not how it worked. Directors don't get addressing room. They hang out in the station and just office. There's no space. Right.

Like, you know how when you're making a movie, you're dressing room has to be in a special truck. Right. Do you see any space for trucks in this little building?

“But like, that's how much he didn't know what he didn't know.”

Yeah, I mean, because I don't, he loves musicals, but I feel like he loves movie musicals. Like, he doesn't really talk about despite being a New York boy, being a New York theater boy. No. And this, you know, this way that he's got like Liza, right, you know, white hot Liza. Can we just break down the sort of where Liza's at for a moment?

And it's not like he missed, well, he does misuser in that he tried to make her improvis an entire movie, which doesn't seem like the right, but she's still good in the movie, but it doesn't feel like he didn't know what he had on his movie.

And then when it comes to the actual musical, ask musical that finally starts,

you're like, "Tay the way." "Tay the way." "It's for her." He's channeling her dad, he's channeling her mom in a way that feels like positive and cathartic, not in a like, "No, it doesn't feel delicious."

Because, yeah, it just feels like, yeah, she's stepping into the shoes and they fit just fine. And she's extraordinary in those sequences. I mean, like, she'd grown up in the studio system. And that's when they're at their best. Like, both of them are at their best.

Like, his directing is just peak, and she gets to do what she does. Which is seeing her life depressing. Yeah, she's falling apart. Well, you can't make that note any longer than that. Oh, you did.

“She's also such a good example of the, like, good singing is storytelling kind of thing,”

where you're, like, she is conveying things to you with every inflection, with every gesture. It's not just about hitting notes. But the thing that's so fascinating about her to me is she is, like, a Razzle Dazzle star in the 70s at a moment where Hollywood is kind of rejecting Razzle Dazzle. And they're like, "Razzle Dazzle is for TV."

That is for variety shows. Movies don't have space for this anymore. People, like, strysan, tone down the Razzle Dazzle when they get to the 70s. And they're like, "I make comedies now. I make romantic dramas."

Yeah, I play human beings. Right, right, like-- And then I'll do concerts. Yeah, like, you've got to split these things. Yeah, well, she had the advantage of coming into the movie business with, like, the one director

who came from theater. Right, fine. Mr. Old Bobby Fosse, who also, but also knew how to cut a 70s movie. Right, he's both of it. Yeah, he's new Hollywood director. And so a unique star is that she is the center of a musical

that somehow figured out how to serve both sides. It's funny about what Marty's trying to do, where it's like, you know, Fosse kind of earned he did that, bud. Like, and it's like, it's not as artificial, but like, have everybody basically already did what you're thinking of,

which is sort of like a more real feeling musical film. Like, you know, like, you know-- But also was like a little unreplicatable. Yeah, it was so specific to the structure of that show itself. And the text of that show.

Yeah. Her other films, if you want me to bring them up, Griff, are Lucky Lady, which is the Stanley Dona movie with Gene Hackman and Bert Reynolds. That's like a prohibition, like comedy. I've never seen it.

It's a famous bomb. Like, I don't know if you've seen it, Lynn. I mean, you know. And I didn't have the DVD of that one. No.

And then a matter of time, which is the movie that her dad directs, that has candor and episodes, and like old Gershwin songs. She plays herself in silent movie as well. Well, yeah.

But I'm forgetting the camera. So I'm saying like, you know, that where she's playing like an Italian,

like Duchess or whatever, I've never seen it either.

Yeah. Her dad's very old when he's making it.

“And, you know, I think it might be his last movie or close to it.”

So it's not like post-cap rate. She hasn't really had hits. No. But she's famous. Yeah.

Yeah. I mentioned she's done London with her to the fact that she's two strikes in when-- Yeah. She needs another win. And this is a miss.

And then she doesn't do anything for four years. I mean, obviously, she doesn't do any more movies. Yes. She does other stuff. But then she has Arthur in the 80s, which I feel like does give her a bit of a new lease.

Arthur's four years later in a huge hit. Yes. But then the next credit after that is Muppet's segment had Cameo as herself three years later. Then three years after that, she does rent a cop. Yeah.

And the year after that, she does Arthur two on the rocks. I mean, she mostly is a Broadway totally. Right. It's kind of disabused her on movies a little bit. Yeah.

Yeah.

And certainly, there's-- I've never seen stepping out, which is kind of like the late-in-life

Liza Legacy call. It has been Broadway performer gives up tap lessons to a group of miss fits. There's a 90s meet the 50s and that went a little bit. A little bit. A little bit.

Let's have a meet. She replaces Gwen Vernon in Chicago. No, this-- I mean, that's an incredible story, which deserves like a second, which is that Gwen Vernon basically-- Right.

The queen. She's with Bobby Fossy, Serial Flander, Serial Drugtaker, but she's like, "We're doing Chicago."

She's a bit of a Jimmy Doyle, except--

She's a-- Jimmy Doyle, like Jerry Town.

“I believe one of the most talented people alive.”

Right. And she's like, "We're doing this." It's double act like her and she'd Rivera. She inhales like some confetti on stake. Like as a freak accident, where she inhales some confetti on the set.

Like, it damaged seriously damages for lungs.

And Liza, who basically was like, "My theater parents are Kinder, Eb, and Fossy,"

are like, "She basically says, "Can I go in?" Like, "Can I just go in?" And she even confesses in her autobiography. I knew they'd make a movie this some day. I thought if I went in, they might see me for the movie version.

Some point down the line. She didn't know it was going to take 30 years. But she says, "And I don't want to disrespect Gwen." So they don't even put her name on the marquee. She goes in as basically like the most famous swing performer online.

Like, it was like, "Get a week to learn it." She did it for five weeks. And it was just like this open secret. Like, "Yo, Liza's in fun." She can't go right now.

It's so beautiful. And they would surprise people every. Because it was a social media too. So they would say like, " Tonight, the role of, you know..." It was a rock scene.

And you'd feel the audience, "Oh, we'll be played by Liza." And then, "What?" It is very cool. Because it was Jerry Orbach, right? Yeah, Jerry Orbach.

She'd a Rivera.

“And then she did, you must know a little bit about it.”

I'd just, and then we can, you know. But the rank, right? That's the candorab thing that would be reunites. Which he'd a Rivera. And it's about the own like a roller skating rank.

And it's like dilapidated. Do you know about the show? Yeah, it's like a roller skating rank. Yeah. And it's like dilapidated.

You know about the show? It's like, "You know what? It's like a roller skating rank." And it's like dilapidated. It's like dilapidated.

And 80's somewhat forgotten. Like, have they ever done this one at encore? Yeah. So this movie is a seed for New York, New York. The greatest New York song of all time.

There is a song by candorab and they're called a quiet thing. That I think is the best candorab song of all time. It was, we read it at the vows for my wedding. Like it is, it is one of the most beautiful songs you'll ever hear. And Liza sings it.

Happiness comes in on tiptoe. It's quite a thing. It's great song. Actually, we put that in New York, New York too. It's, again, it became like an orphan show for all the great candorab songs

that didn't have a prominent home. Huh, Liza. I think you're right. I feel like it does sort of... It's not like it stops her being in movies.

But it does kind of...

“I think this experience, she was just sort of like maybe that's not my primary medium.”

And things like Arthur are like a much lighter lift for her, where it's like, "Oh, you want me to be like the fun gal next to Dudley Moore. I don't have to be like singing my heart out. I don't need to be the big open wound of the movie. I also, I think you sang Sims, like Marty comes in with this pitch,

and Hollywood's like, "That sounds incredible."

The other part of it is, I think the movie musical in the 1970s, the studio probably felt about it the way they feel about the superhero movie now, where the public keeps being like, "We're maybe over this." And they're like, "How do we get you back?" This was kind of our bread and butter.

And if something like Cabaret works, they're like Travis Bickle with the musical you guys. No, but they're like Cabaret works, and they're like, "Okay, so you do so like them sometimes. How do we replicate this?" What is the element that makes it work? This is what we're best at.

We can clearly hear it all sit on the issued horses don't they? Which is not a musical, but has again that kind of like, "We're mixing realism with movie maniac." Can we do this in a more structured way? They shoot the film at MGM.

Old Hollywood master bars 11 does the sets, he had done sound of music, right? He'd done Scarlet Empress, the Vonstrumberg movie. He's like, "Ted Marty, like a king, like West Side Story." So he's like, "I want to recreate the mythical city, you know, the high curves." And like, you know, what else does he want?

You know, like, everything's just going to look a little fantastic. They had Georgian money. Oh no, right, the shoulder pagged and the wide ties, Georgian money saw this movie. And inspired him to make his clothes. Yes.

See. Laslo Cova shoots, obviously, he shoots glass walls with Scorsese. Yes. Same time, this is the only time that they work together. No, he's those two movies.

Unbelievable. Yes. And, you know, he moves the camera a lot because he's Martin Scorsese.

He's always talking to me.