Raging Bull with David Krumholtz

Go get him, champ.

“I'm the podcast, I'm the podcast, I'm the podcast.”

I'm the podcast, I'm the podcast, I'm the podcast.

I'm the podcast, I'm the podcast, I'm the podcast. You want happy with this? I love that. No, no, no, I'm very happy. The other one I was thinking about doing is, if you podcast, you podcast.

If you lose, you still podcast. There's no way you can lose. What's the word there? When? If you win, you win.

If you lose, you win. You still win, there's no way you can lose. I like what you did. Thank you, I thought that was great. Thank you.

And for the listener at home, my handwork was perfect. My form was immaculate. You're not a amateur boxer. Thank you, thank you for asking. You ever boxed?

I trained with a boxer, yeah.

Like sort of a workout thing, right?

Then I pinched both nerves. One nerve and each shoulder went to a chiropractor and he fixed me. But I, part of him fixing me.

“And then I wound up with an elbow that locks up for the rest of my life.”

What age was this? 3031? Okay. Yeah. So I fixed one thing and by breaking another thing.

Yes, yeah. My father made me train in boxing to toughen me up when I was upper single digits. And I hated it. And your weight was also upper single digits at that time. It was a lower single digits.

I could not crack a hundred pounds. Well, single digits would be one pound slower single. You trained and did the person hit back? No, it was all kind of sparring. But it was at like a real boxing drum.

And I father made you do it. Yes. My father used to. My father was trying to talk about before a degenerate gambling addict who's favorite bar was Jimmy's corner.

Are you familiar with Jimmy's corner? No, I'm not. But I'm 44th Street. Ones. It was owned.

He's sadly passed away. But Jimmy Glenn, who was a former boxing corner man. And so he had Jimmy Glenn, the owner of this bar, who was an old former boxer. And that's just when you're trying to get your kid a little bit of TLC. What you want to do is ask your favorite bartender for help.

Right. This is like me at nine. Oh, my God. And my brother was so jealous. And my brother was a very physically rambunctious child.

Who would sometimes attack other kids just kind of like randomly hit so much excess energy. He'd start wailing on them. And he wanted to box. And my parents were like, this is a terrible idea. And it was like a year and a half, two years may be of me begging my parents to let me stop.

And my brother begging to let him start. Wow.

And finally the switch over happened.

And the second my brother boxed. He completely balanced out. It like solved him. And he had a golden gloves. He was a licensed fighter. He almost went pro as like a feather way.

But the two years that you boxed, you came away feeling like an inferior physical specimen. Crummy you get me. I do. You get it hard.

Yeah. Yes. I hated it. It was like extreme having the polling complex prior to which I did. This it only made it correct infinitely worse.

Especially because my brother's also a little guy. I don't know. No, giant brother. It's why when I shake your hand, you really squeeze the shit out. I squeeze really hard.

And I locked in on your eyes. By the way, I do the same thing. But your squeeze. You got to do it. It's squeezeier than not.

And we did a hug. I did a full body squeeze. I pinch those nerves. I don't want to insult you. But I didn't feel that happened.

“I think this is a good energy for this episode though.”

Because, you know, we're talking about confrontation. I mean, brotherly, brotherly, brotherly, brotherly love. Sort of the thin line here between insecurity and manhood. I became his manager. I kiss my brother's life on the mouth.

This is what happened. Yeah. Well, you kiss on a mouthful. Wait, kiss on the mouthful. Who the, yeah, what you mother should.

Is this, is this the greatest repetition movie? Yes. I picked a quote that was obviously saying the same thing 87 times. And that's part of why I picked that. Well, it just feels like the way his brain has been smushed.

Yeah. He's got a cycle through phrases over and over to kind of like get to the phrase. Yeah. Yeah. It's all sort of the performance.

Obviously all improvised, which is great. It's good. Good performance. Who's the lead guy in this? But obviously all improvised, but, you know, with improv, you know this.

That you feel, there's that, there's that. Oh, the joke didn't land. Let's try it again. Yes.

Yeah.

Great stuff comes out of the repetition.

Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And, and looks, Chris, as he, I'd say master of repetition in general, he's good at the rhythmic repetition of dialogue.

He's good at making conversation, feel real. But I think you're right.

“I think the punch-drunk nature of this and how kind of like emotionally unovolved these guys are,”

means that he gets a lot more latitude to just like they can just repeat the same thing for five minutes straight. And just escalate the intensity of it. I came away thinking how in the world could they have ever made this movie without Joe. movie without Joe Pesci. And yet they just found him randomly. Yeah. But as whole town around, so, so, wow, to near watch is this thing and goes, I bet I would

have incredible chemistry with that actor. Yeah. And they meet and they have

legendary immediate chemistry that then they're thrusting on to film, right? But carries through other films. You know how that is so strange that that that didn't hero intuitive that. Well, especially he is the guy at this moment. He is like the new bro. Right. He's already gotten one Oscar. He's done taxi driver. Yes. Mean streets deer hunter deer hunter and the godfather too. Yes. So, he is

the guy. He's the guy. He's, it's undisputed. The confidence is through the roof. He could get anyone to play his brother. Could get anyone to play his brother and steamroll them. Yes. And the movie's watchable. Yeah. And he goes, I'm going to let this little guy fucking shoot me out. Oh, it's amazing. Yeah. The amazing. Joseph Pesci.

“Mm-hmm. Oscar nominee for this film. Sure that little Joey Kenseng. I think”

that was the name of his album. Wasn't it? Little Joe Shurkins. Little Joe Shurkins. And I was his album. Yeah. Griffin, what's this podcast? This podcast is blank, Czech, with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. I'm David. I'm David. I'm David. He's my wife. He's my wife. He's my wife. He's my wife on the math David. David's laughing. Sorry. He's my wife. You. I would just not want to hang out

with Jake Clamado. I'll just say it. Yeah. I just don't think I'd find him very charming. Cremi, we just did New York, New York, which will have come out the week before this, right? Okay. Correct. 'Cause last Waltz is in between last Waltz controversially we're doing a Patreon. I'm sorry. He's got too many documentaries. But I made the argument that Jimmy Doyle is of all the Scorsese D'Niro characters. That's the last one you

want to date. Mm-hmm. Now watching this movie, I was I was questioning it. I was waiting for a puppy in his riverbank. It's not great. Yeah, but he's kind of what he's, you know, he's going to annoy you. He's going to annoy you to that. Right. Yes. I mean, Lamada, though. Lamada, Lamada, there's some risk. There's some optional hazard. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's a very, very tough customer. Yeah. No, but like we were kind of talking

about how Jimmy is so on charismatic on top of everything. Like, you know, there's no even quality right. He's very, very tough to imagine why you'd be around him in any sense. But Lamada is similar, but I guess he has some swagger to him. And it's also has sort of

“kind of like you can see. And that's what's brilliant about this film. Yes. He's representing”

an animal. Mm-hmm. Yes. We're telling people that he's an animal. And yet, a raging bull, if you want, a raging bull. And yet, they find a genuine humanity in this guy. And there are him. He has three kids. Mm-hmm. He has moments of being a peaceful to some extent person. He just wants to be a community. And that's all he wants. You know, all the stuff he's like, we're pumpkin and that's it. Yeah. And that's such a ridiculously fine line

to make work that only De Nero can do it. And what are you, what are you doing in that

first screening of this film? Sitting in the audience. Yeah. How confused were you about what

you were being asked? Yeah. Based on your cinematic knowledge up until 1980, what you are being asked to feel as an audience member about this guy. Well, even that was for say, these reluctance to making the movie of like, who cares about this fucking guy? I don't like this guy. I want to spend time with this guy. Right. This guy's unpleasant. He's a bore. Yes. In both spellings. Sure. Sure. Right. Yeah. Three spellings. Oh, boy. Sure. B-O-R. B-O-R. B-O-A-R. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. He's got him all. It's an incredibly watchable film given how tough it is to watch. I guess is the way to, you know, that's the story. It's a timeless film. Yes. That elevated the art. Mm-hmm. Especially of the biopic, specifically, which was not really a thing that much, and was a very limited thing. I think it's a very specific band. So it creates

there's obviously there's, there's the old boring Hollywood, like the story of Louis Pasteur. Right.

“Or, you know, like that kind of the Yankees kind of stuff. Right. Yeah. I think it's important.”

This nice guy that I say this at this moment, which is that it is truly an honor to talk about the film. Well, thank you so much for asking me to talk about this film because I, there's only

a small handful of films that I bow to. This is one of them. Oh, yes. What else has always been?

Oh, god. Let's not start. I was going to get into territory where it's a big group. Oh, no. It's just a small handful. What's the name? You know, there's a couple other scorses. He's in there and a couple other, you know, there's some couple spike lees and Spielbergs and Kubricks and you know, that kind of thing. But this is one for the ages. It completely validates the entire art form of cinema. I mean, it really does. And all that, all the people that work to make great cinema happen. Yes.

And it ends in such a meta way. It's, it's akin to what Tarantino later did in glorious pastors. Yes.

“Where the final line is, I believe, this is my masterpiece. Essentially, you know, scorsese”

does that in this film and says this is my masterpiece. It's also him thinking it's the last movie he's ever going to make or certainly the last studio movies ever going to make. I think as much as he's calling his shot, it's because he thinks it's the last chance he has to call a shot. Right. I should say this is a podcast about Famauga. Things directors who have massive success are on their curves. This is the compulsion. I must say the full thing. No, yeah, it orientate people.

I have to orientate people. This is many people's first episode. I'm sure directors who have

massive success early on in their career, such as taxi driver and our given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce baby like New York, New York, which he is coming straight off of and it's the biggest bounce of his career. This is a mini series on the films of Martin Scorsese. It is called podcast fellas. We are the titular podcast fellas. Today we are talking raging bull with returning guests,

the raging bull himself, David Crumwaltz. No, that's the sound of me, Ray. You're not from the Bronx. You're from Queens, right? Yeah, so you can be the Queens bull. You can be the Bronx bull.

Yeah, I guess so. I know it's just because of the name Queen. There's always a feminine. Sure.

So what's the feminine version of a bull? Cow? Cow. Yeah. Queen's cow? Yeah. You can do this thing in the illiteration too. What's animal with a cue? Well, you're getting into trickier territory now, bad. Yeah, that's tough. What animals do exist with cue? Quail. Quail. Oh, Queen's trail.

“Queen's trail. I like that. You're smiling. Yeah. What kind of noises did they make?”

Probably a little bit. It's a little bit to be. Queen's trail gets in the ring. Yeah, there's a lot of others. There's the quaca. Oh, we had a quaca, which is kind of like a weird little like furry guy, a little marsupial. Yeah, that's. And it's like on a straight trail down down under. And have you been to Australia? I have made a movie or two. And I feel like I've made them down the last year that that takes place in New Jersey. And we shot it in Melbourne, Australia. That's Hollywood 3.0. Crazy. That's your

we've coined Hollywood 3.0 today for you to describe just like the fucking nonsense that goes on day to day. Hollywood 3.0. What was the New Jersey movie? What the heck? It's a movie that's coming out on Christmas day. Perfect. This year called Mr. irrelevant. Oh, yeah. With them. With the super hard. Yes. Yes. It's supposed to be very good. It's testing off the charts. It is Hollywood 3.0. It is actually. It is actually. It is. John toggle story. I think we need more sports movies.

I think it's a it's a it's a guy. I mean, for this. Absolutely beautiful. I hear it's like there's it's a it's a wonderful film going experience. I am truly heard this. We are friends who were at a cinema com where they showed off a large chunk of it and people were like elevating. Yeah. Yes. It's it's it's levitating. I think it's the darkest of the dark horses for Oscars. Well, well, well, well, they called him Mr. irrelevant. My yet Michael Shannon's in a right

point. Bill ourselves and is playing Bill Parsons. That is that is casting to make a lot of sense. Yeah. Bill's. Um, and I have a little sneaky funny good role in what do you plan out on your business. No, I play um the fuck up. So it is they had a blow my cam so it's about the New York giants New York giants in 1983. They had an equipment manager who was with them for at least 30 years. I think named why. Why do you know for I the chance to play a whiteie for you. You need one

They have this young player who gets diagnosed with, you know, questionably

“survivable cancer is likely going to croak. It's awful. It's tragic. He's 21 or 22 years old.”

And they call, they decide the NFL and the giants decide to do everything they possibly can to save this kid's life to try and uh pay for it all and they call whiteie and they go, what are you doing? He's like a missing, you know, a missing the uh the action of being part of the team and they go, how about you, will you drive this kid to all his appointments? So this older man who's retired becomes this kid's chauffeur and watches him slowly die. That's a good part. It's a good

part. Uh my enjoyed myself. Bill parcels. Uh you know what they called him? Griff. Mr. Elevant? No. The big tuna. One of the one of the great sports teams names of all time. Why did he get that name? I'm not really sure where the name came from. Famously Bill's hurt Bill parcels look a lot like my dad and people would mistake my dad for Bill parcels. I would see that look is very famous like, you know, when I was a kid. Like he was the coach of the giants and then he was

the then he wasn't either coach of the giants for him and I like he was yeah, he was a New York big year. This was my father of course, New York and the 80s with Howie Mandel. Your father thought your father looked like Howie Mandel. His father, you know, when the dad had the curly hair and howie had the curly hair, I can see. We will post it like a glove. So over the head of the head, we will post on social media the side by side of howie Mandel and this era and my father, but

people would kind of rage and bull style be like, Hey, Mandel, you big timing me. Wow. Oh, you think you're too good for your fans, Mandel. You know who my dad looked like, who son of Sam, that's literally what's from Queens lived in the same neighborhood and Dave Birkerwood's was a mailman and so was my dad. Yeah, the only difference was that Birkerwood's had blue eyes and my dad had browned. I can think of one other. Also, he didn't commit murder. That's the different

type of thing. I don't know if he was a paper eater. I have recurring dreams coincidentally in which I'm pulling large pieces. I'm in public in a situation where I need to talk to people. Yeah. And in the dreams, I'm pulling endless amounts of paper chewed up paper out of my mouth. Oh, it's in there already. It's in there already and I have to stop and they're very vivid realistic dreams. I have to stop and pull paper out of in between my teeth, out of my throat.

Oh, and then I looked up like what those mean and I think they said something like, you know, obviously they're anxiety dreams, but yeah, something to the of like you have something you

“need to get off your chest. Something unspoken. Yeah, you need to read what's on the paper. That's the answer.”

That's how you were talking about. Yeah, it's all bits of funny fold it piece of back together. Take a blow dryer. We're talking about mulch. We're talking about that. I mean,

I mean, in the exception, you know, that's it's always right. Like that's it's like you always

have to find like the weird papers. Oh, yeah. Dream. And that's like where the secret is. Right. And that's how you come up with a great idea to retire and let's someone else from your words to this crystalline. You should text him every time you have a weird dream being like, hey, inception guy. Explain this dream. You do this. I don't have any way of contacting. Well, because he's never got info. Yeah. He's been on that. I don't think Chris would want to.

Oh, can you give a phenomenal performance? I don't think that matters to to to to him or me.

“The honestly. I just think it would be funny if it's like when you know a doctor.”

Yeah, you know, hey, look at his mole or, you know, like, hey, Chris, you did inception. Was this dream mean that a lot of people's weird dreams. Yeah. David Cromholtz is here David Cromholtz is here. No, the last time you're on the show, we talked about sensible women who is, you know, we're talking the other giant of this era. Well, you're gay. We're he's talking the other best actor. Yeah, you know, he did Pacino's best actor trophy. This is De Niro's best actor trophy.

Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't call Pacino the only other giant. I think I think there's a triumvirate.

You're right. Right. Right. The third often. Yeah. Yeah. Of that era. Yeah.

I'm that era. Those are the three guys who were chasing those are the three and they're they're rewriting the rules of acting. Yes. And there's three guys who I feel like a generation prior Hollywood would have been like, well, you're not a star. Like, you know, you know, the look of a movie star. Right. They look like a butcher. Right. They are ethnic American. They're ethnic. They're small. They're kind of like they got their handsome, but they got kind of funny faces. Right. You know,

they're not. Do they make those movies? Do they make? Well, maybe the graduate, but do they make

Raging bulls the closest in that like Hollywood will still respond to us. It's a boxing movie. Yeah. Right. And I'd like a true story real person movie. What did it with Sherpaco? I

may be. That feels like a TV show. Definitely is a TV. The answer is that all three of those things

“would be TV shows. Yeah. Which is a film. Yeah. I think there is sort of like a Mount Rushmore”

of the the male acting performances, the leading male performances that people like lose their minds over that are sort of held up as the highest. Right. So, right. So, right. The woman's number one. Sense of woman's number one. Number two is sense of a woman. Chris O'Donnell. Right. That's right. Yes. No, I think it's like it's raging bulls. Sure. It's raging bull for sure. I think it's personally. If you combine the two, Godfather Pachino performances. Sure. Right, dark days. You're definitely not.

You're way off. Really? Yeah. You're getting crazy. What do you think? Jimmy Stewart and so wonderful life. Well, that's quite a good performance. Yeah. I think Denzel and Malcolm X is Denzel. Malcolm X. Absolutely. Are we talking street car? Are we talking on the

“waterfront? Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm going to go. I think it's probably going to go. Hmm.”

God Almighty, I'm going to go Nicholson Coocus Nest. Jack is sort of outside. You know, it has not she has Nick American. He's straight down the middle straight down the map. No, you know, that's true. What is in fact what is Jack Nicholson? Isn't he Irish? I don't know. Yeah. I would imagine. Yes. New Jersey's on. Hmm. Uh, but we're not here to talk about Jack. We're not. No. But this Irish German English and Welsh descent. There you go. This is still a performance

that people use as shorthand. Oh, 100%. I think it's a great symbol. Yes. You know, I saw this film

when I was 21 for the first time. Okay. It changed everything for me because up until that point,

I had only really wanted to do comedy, do comedy, done comedy. Uh, there was no, or, you know, cartoonish character shit. Suddenly, I watched this film and thought, I could do that. I don't know how. Mm-hmm. But if I just try, you want to do that. Like, trying the goal history to do that. Yeah. If I could do 10% of the immersion and the intimacy and the intensity of what DeNiro did in Rating Bowl, I could do 10% I would get dramatic

jobs. I would get those jobs. It's fascinating. It's just an an outrageously monolithic performance.

“It's arguably the greatest lead performance ever. That is very arguably. Yeah. I think, I mean,”

no one's going to call you crazy for saying certainly not. It's a reasonable opinion. I also think it's something where I have the experience of, like, I watched this film. I was very struck by it as a young man or, you know, like, obviously it's a Totemic film and that's a Totem.

And then I showed her a feather way. I've never been a feather way. I don't know. Sorry.

I hit this height when I was 13. I've always been a big boy. Yeah. Um, and then you, you know, you have a few years from it. You're like, well, but isn't that it's just him screaming and yelling, isn't it? Then you watch the movie again. You're like, I forgot how good this movie. Look at how good. Like, and I forgot how it's not whatever the stereotype you're going to see over the top. You said it. That's the whole. That's the magic factor. It's the volcanic stuff.

You're, you know, let me bring my, let me bring my band to wait perspective to this. Perfect. Goddammit, the sound editing in this film. Yeah. Is a new road map suddenly for all sound editing going forward. The intimacy of the sound of that film. There is no film that sounds like raging boat to this day. There are attempts. But there. So you are as an audience member being whispered to, you're being shouted at, they're speaking to your soul. It's, it's brilliant sound editing.

Do you know the thing that's so much of it, by the way, is ADR? Yes. Oh, yes. But that Marty drove everyone crazy because he insisted that every punch, every flash bulb, be a unique sound, that they're not repeat any specific sounds, which a lot of it's like fully work. And it's over the top in a certain way. And when he text, you know, when he's in Miami with that, his house and he asks the photographer to take a picture. That, thank you for us for us. Get in his sweetheart and they

surround him. And the moment the first flash goes off, you hear one of his children's scream. Yeah. You're, ah! Oh my god. Just whatever standard film had come to just

I'm going to hold. I'm going to go even one higher than you. I think this movie is very

“well-directed. When I was watching it, I said, "Who is this scorsese kid?"”

Yes. And Chapman. Chapman P. Yes. There's not a frame in this movie that isn't a painting. It didn't win the Oscar, which is, you know, the Oscar's not the end of the world, but it's in a shocking, yeah, for cinematography. What did test the Polansky film, which I'm sure Jeffrey Onesworth, like, I'm sure had gorgeous vistas of the mors, right? You know, I'm sure that is my dim memory, a pretty movie. Sure. But this is one of those things where one

you can show five seconds of raging bull in some clip package. Yeah. As you see all the time in these

kind of De Niro, you know, you'll see him roll down at a ward shows around TV and you're just yet lean forward. And any shot? I do not believe how this movie. And insert shot would get that response. And why black and white? Do we have theories? Oh, we can talk about it. Yeah, I'm sure that'll be in the research, because I think there was a lot of reasons for the black and white. And just no one's made a sports movie. Look, this guy. I said I was reductive to call this sports movie.

But no one's made like boxing look like this ever again. And just the with the smoke and the, you know, just that you're in his mind in there. Yeah. And theater of it ended that sort of just the slaughterhouse of it. Well, you're going to say, no, the contrast of how beautifully lit almost the atrically lit, the boxing matches are with the crudeness of how the rest of it.

“Yeah, the natural light through it all. Yeah. It's just, well, the key to this movie is, you know,”

Marty said, I don't want to do this. I don't get this. And De Niro kept on insisting. We'll get into

this in depth. But then he finally figured out he was like, oh, boxing's a metaphor. Boxing doesn't

matter. I can't think of this as a boxing, right? It's about getting in the ring. It's about whatever that thing is in your life. And let's face it. This score says he doesn't need to be directed with should this is the movie where he lets De Niro sort of direct their color. They're right on the higher. This is this is a 50 50 job. Yes. In fact, I can open the dust. The trust is through the roof. What required, what is required of De Niro? See, I'm going to watch behold as I marry this into

a discussion about AI. Okay. Let's do it. What's required? I could have done this movie. We agree. What's required of De Niro is this genuine raw soul searching sort of an access that he is displaying to his own emotional nuance, his the the the complicated levels of who De Niro is as a person, who an actor should be as a person, right? Someone who emulates humanity in nuanced fashion that arguably no actor before after had and to give of that to bear

himself raw, he had to have trained mentally for this, not just physically, right? You know that this is all stuff you know as an audience member and two different physical states and two different physical states, one misshapen, which is also two different mental states married to those. Yeah. And the confidence, the Niro's confidence, who's 36 at this point when he makes this movie. That's discussed. He's playing a 19 year old, though. Yes. Right. Right. Essentially at the beginning. Yeah.

Um, it's through the roof and the uniqueness of De Niro that he has to face and live with the burden of De Niro's uniqueness, applied to the uniqueness of jacelomotor. And there is no way and you know this watching it. There is no way that De Niro is not in some sort of existential pain playing in this character. Yes. And also there's something clearly that drew him to it. Correct. Yes. That he needed to. Because he couldn't revish it. Yes. He's a sacrifice and a half that he's

“and he's giving. It's giving. It's consigiving. Now, you have to be human to understand the true”

depth of not only the performance, but of the film. You have to be. Right. And here's where I married into. Let's do it. Who on would you? You don't want to watch an AI basketball game do you? Why would anyone? Why would you watch it? Right. Yeah. That's a lot of sports because it's human beings, which we are, doing what we can't do. Okay. You cannot expect AI to make an impact with audiences in a way that film can film. I mean, real. I should say real people can't humans can't. On film.

they go, you know, well, what's the difference between a human actor and an AI actor and an AI

will learn from what humans do. Everyone discounts the audience. The audience is human. It can only empathize with humanity. Well, and that's the challenge of raging. Bull is like, it's not like I want you to understand the jacelomata is a good guy. Or even the jacelomata is sympathetic in a way of like, you know, here's why he bathes. It's not like, don't you understand jacelomata just had it. It's not like he was such a piece of shit. It's not that it's more just

“you need to look at this darkness and this exists. Right. And on right. And understand the”

nightmare of the human spectrum that he was on and that there's something to relate to.

It was just true taxi driver too. That makes it all the more compelling. Like, you know,

that you're like, there's something to relate to even though he's a fairly despicable person pretty much all the time. And also that there's like a sacrifice here, not just in the characters, but in the making of this movie that is a thing that AI can ever experience. I mean, this is the conversation right now. I just think it's like, it was such a good fucking knockout punch. It's just like everyone flipping their shit over the Odyssey. Everyone circles back to the

same thing, which is like, this looked really difficult to make. This was not easy. And I'm appreciating the sacrifice and the effort of this. And I want to see it on the biggest screen. And it's like, that's a fucking knockout punch. The people don't want to pay for it. It's not just AI. It's also just, you know, the the years we went through of people being like, yeah, no, once the movie experience anymore, you know, that that's being refuted. This is is lovely. You know,

Scorsese is not an insular filmmaker, right? He's referenced, but so many, you know, because, well, because he himself is a cinema expert, right? But so many filmmakers make movies, quote, unquote, they say this for themselves. You know, you've got to make the movie for yourself be happy with it. And then the audience will love it. No, Scorsese goes, I'm the audience for my own film. I am all kinds of versions of that audience. I am the high-fluent, high-brow,

area-dite guy sitting in the back row, and I'm also the kid in the front row. And what can satisfy everyone? And he's anticipating how the audience will feel. And he's feeling literally framing shots and directing scenes from that perspective. The greatest trick that Scorsese pulls

“in this film is challenging the audience, like what in the world are they supposed to be feeling?”

Yeah. You know, taxi driver is a straight drama. Yeah, right? Okay. Now this movie, it's a brutal comedy. It's a funny tragedy, sure. It's, it's so many things in Star Contrast. It's comedy love, family bonds, violence, paranoia, sympathy, rage, disgust, sorrow, horror,

you know, peace, triumph, success, ego, tranquility, the burden of ambition, you know. And ultimately,

it's the story, it's exactly what it should be, which is the story of one life to tell a story about the pugilistic nature of all lives and all life. And just it's, it's, what an undertaking, and if he fucks it up, and he didn't even think he should make the movie. Yes. And if he fucks this up, people are coming out of the theater going that director is a psychotic person. And his career is like, we all are close to it because the careers are already in a little bit

“of trouble. And it's sort of like, you know, why do you do that? I think the fact that he doesn't”

really care about sports, which he's very upfront about matters a lot in the movie, too, because I like sports movie. Like I like a schematic sports movie, just fine. Like I enjoy an underdog story. I enjoy this shit. But, you know, so many sports movies lock into like, okay, well, we need to see where he initially succeeded and then he was probably with this battle. And like his biggest triumph in this movie on in the ring is like grinning like a freak at Sugar Ray Robbins,

he didn't knock me down. Yeah. Sugar Ray Robbins is just like, what's okay? You know, the win. Right. And it's just like you literally lost. He's so separated from whatever the point of boxing is at that moment in life. And like at no point is there like the scene where someone's like, you did it. Here's the belt. Like, you know, like that the the arc of his career is this sort of like just this dim noise in the movie at best. I also think there's a core of

he buys a building at one point from fights. And he's like, hmm, and you're like, Jesus, he's a fucking landlord like this guy can't be served to stake without having a panic attack.

your great at being a detriment to every other aspect of your life, everything that makes

them a good boxer. Well, if you're ego, it's also about ego dating. Yes. If you don't have emotional intelligence. Correct. Yes. If you're not in conversation with yourself. Yeah. Because he's a fighter. Yes. That's a great fighter. Right. Who is able to piece together a pretty normal life on paper. On paper. He's got the kids. He's got the family. Yeah. That's a big thing. But he becomes a clown. Yes. He becomes more than just an actual comedian slash clown.

“Mm-hmm. His life is a clown is clownish. Yes. His whole life. Yeah.”

I'm going to open the dossier to tell you some stuff about this. Can I just ask you one quick question before you open it? Did you fuck my wife? Yes. I think okay. Okay. I can shoot. That's the answer. I fucked your wife. I fucked your brother. I fucked you. Whatever. Scorsese in the later half of the 70s is doing a lot of stuff. We've addressed this to some extent on prior episode on top of the last Waltz and New York New York. He even worked on a Broadway

show called The Act with Eliza Manelli who he was having and affair with at the time. He had no idea what he was doing. He was sort of soft-fired more kind of like he agreed to step aside and let a experience Broadway hand come into kind of quote unquote fix things. He was also having a very sexually charged affair with cocaine. The drug he was doing a lot of drugs in 1977. He goes to the Tellyred Film Festival which is very early to present an award to Michael Powell one of his heroes,

“the great British director and Michael Powell says to him like, "My dear boy, what are you doing here?”

Aren't you working on a play?" And Scorsese is like, "That's when I realized like I was not cut out for theater. I didn't understand." But at this point he wants to make

gangs of New York. That's gonna take him a second. A little obviously. A little bit. He makes

American boy which we discussed in her Scorsese short episode. It's fascinating. The profile of Stephen Prince. Have you ever seen that? Crown of no. You would be intrigued by it. You would be very intrigued by it. It's just him interviewing a guy who's got insane stories and the adrenaline shot back from the dead from pulp fiction is stolen from that movie. That is true. That's a story he tells. Yes. And he's got raging bull which is a movie he doesn't want to do but De Niro has basically

been trying to get him to do since 1974. He came to him on the set of Alice doesn't live here anymore and said, "Read this book by Jake Lamada. I've like optioned it. There's some some good scenes. He's an interesting character. De Niro, who is obviously a tough interview in that when you ask him like, "Why'd you do raging bull?" He's like, "I don't know, it's interesting." You know, like he's just, but he says like, "I like the book because I thought it had some good scenes

to repeat this." A good scene is something that you think has a lot of dramatic possibilities in irony and humor and something that people can relate to. It's a very simple and bland statement but you can imagine, I guess, De Niro just reading the book and being like, "Well, this scenario is something I can play out in my head is something that would be very dramatically compelled." And even talking back to the sort of point of getting in this character's head and the sort of

spiritual connection he was feeling, he like admits when he reads it. The book is poorly written. Yes, even De Niro admits this book is bad, but Scorsese does not like the book. It's like a portal

“into this guy's brain, like even I think the failings of the writing are telling him something as an”

actor that someone's going to have to process dramatically into something that works as a story, but he's seen the scenes and he's seen the way this guy's brain works. Did Niro Robert, Robert De Niro? Is the Joe Demagio of acting? Please explain, as I, I'm a

Joe Demagio had an amazing reputation for doing incredible things on the field, athletic things,

but making them look easy. Sure. To the point, De Niro is simple. He is very simple, deliberate. Yeah. He, I don't think there are any firm choices in his style. I think he goes. He lives in the moment and is in accesses whatever is necessary to tell the story. If any strategy goes into that, I'm sure there's some, and of course, extreme emotional intellect. Yes, extreme. But fire subtle, but it's natural. Yeah. There's a nature to De Niro. The acting wasn't allowed to have. Yes,

especially on film, up until really until he came on the scene. You weren't and maybe Brando, you could argue, but even Brando is a little like, you know, making deliberate choices and speechifying and you could almost say that Brando sort of had to fit the mold, because he would have

He needs to have one foot in the style of film at the time. But Brando now has laid the groundwork for De Niro to be as naturally simplistic, but also acrobatic. And as any actor had ever been.

“And I don't think there's been an actor since very few. It's hard to, I think there are people”

maybe who have gotten into that realm in a singular performance or in a brief period. I don't think there's someone who has a body of work that embodies what you're saying in the same way. I also think

that he has always been so mysterious about his process for how much this is known. Sure. Love it.

You know, the great sacrifice movie and the physical transformation movie and all of that. The built-in inherent mystique of De Niro. Right. That's this comment that he's this shapeshifting guy who then he avoids interviews. He doesn't want to talk about what acting is. He's a representation. No to be mad. Right. He has a reputation for being very quiet on set and that's saying much being a quiet person. Yes. Woo. And compare this to spooky. But she no one Hoffman. Who are incredible.

But we know the legends. Right. They're what they went through and what they were thinking and how they strategize their roles. Right. And here he is. And he's reading this book and he goes like, "Hey, Marty, this is bad. We should make this movie." You're like, "Why?" So he's like, "I don't know

“I want to play this game." One thing. Well, I think there's two times because the Irishman is another”

situation where De Niro keeps coming to Marty being like, "Yeah." I just think this would be interesting and Marty's like, "I don't get it." And it takes him a while. Right. Yeah. Marty doesn't like that the book. It says that there's in the book they kind of try to rationalize everything Jake did.

Like, there's always a reason for the violence for what he did. Which, of course, says he is just

uninterested in. He also is like cinematicly. I didn't like boxing because the boxing shit we would see as a kid either filmed fights that may be rejected in movie theater or movies would be from like one angle camera all the way the back is a starring. Right. But he agrees with the Niro. They're incidents in the book that are interesting. Right. Like, he can see that. Marty Martin, who had already worked with Scorsese on who's that knockout in my door and mean streets and New York

and the last wall is handed the book. Marty's kind of like, I don't know if I want to do this, but, you know, here we go. He calls Jake Lamada. This is the bull in the China shop. He's cursed because he's so macho, but he's so fragile about women. Right. Just takes a woman essentially like looking at him weird for him to completely collapse and become an insane, you know, violent of aggressive. You know, it's like, you can tell how insecure he is. Right. He writes a draft

he integrates some things that Marty maybe wants about his family. Like, there's something about a fig tree in Staten Island that is like grandfather had. D'Niro is like, I fucking hate this. Like, this isn't what I'm going for at all. So then they handed it to Paul Schrader, who obviously had already worked on backseat driver and who has a very deep understanding of feel like about male fragility. Broken man. Right. And at one point, Marty's like, let's do it as a play.

They think about that. It's a bad idea. D'Niro is getting increasingly mad, New York New York

comes out to bad reviews. Kind of the first time Marty's just gotten bad reviews. Like, people are

just like thumbs down and things to D'Niro. D'Niro? That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Julia, his Scorsese marriage is really a Cameron has just collapsed. Uh, you know, he's feeling very disillusioned about everything he's using. A lot of drugs. Uh, Scorsese thinks basically that he wanted to die. Right. He's just kind of like pushing a to its limit. And he kind of hits a brick wall. 1978. He says September 1978 after tell you ride after, like, uh, the play collapses. He's

hospitalized. He spends four days in the hospital. Is this the heart attack? Yes. He physically collapses. And he's hovering between life and death. According to him, D'Niro comes to see him. They talk very openly about everything he's going through. The official charges internal bleeding. Okay.

“Where the official, like, thing on the chart, you have to be doing a lot of drugs and devastating.”

So, and he's, you know, he's fragile. Like, he has mad at man. Right. Yeah. True. Sure. And I met him. Marty fairly recently recently. And he, I can attest to his tinyness. He's very, very small. But he's energetic. I had a fortunately brief and pointless conversation with him. I didn't know what to say to them to him. It was a very strange circumstance. I'm not going to get into the whole story. But I was sitting almost directly across from him at a dinner, at a

luncheon table. Oddly sitting also next to F. Murray Abraham, neither of us knew why we were invited to this thing. Uh-huh. But it was our big, uh, grand, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, meeting with him.

He's sitting there and I, I don't know what to say to him. And, and, and, and an introduction from

“his casting director, um, goes, goes poorly. In other words, she says, hey, Marty, this is David”

Cromoncy's a tremendous actor. And he, he doesn't hear it. Literally doesn't hear that. That's tough. And she doesn't try again. And so I'm thinking, I should say something. And he starts talking about styles of Chinese food. Okay. Like Sichuan, Hunan, and he says that he, in his opinion, Sichuan is the best. We're not talking about favorites. He's simply saying empirically. Mm-hmm. That Sichuan is the best Chinese food. A disagree. And I say for me, it's Cantonese.

Mm-hmm. Classic sort of old school New York Chinese. And he says Cantonese, really? And I say, yes, I feel like it's because it's, you know, very New Yorky and whatever. And he looks at me like I'm a moron. And switches the subject to something else. I had ruined the train of thought. And that was it. That's the whole, my whole interaction with Martin Scorsese is that we disagree on the best Chinese food style. And he moved on for me in that moment. We'll take it to the grave.

Well, he'll get to his grave before I will. So I'll take it to his grave and y'all go visit his grave. Drop off some Cantonese with, you know, some lobster Cantonese. Yeah. And that's with all due respect to the great one of the greatest. Right. Of course. Who's movie? We are, of course, discussing. I guess to do it basically gets Marty to agree to this in the hospital, which is maybe a little bit pressurized, but whatever. Robbie Robertson Scorsese is roommate at the time, which is a

great person you want to be roommates with if you're trying to kick Coke. Right. And Robbie Robertson says,

like, I notice Scorsese finally kind of got back the anger that always helps him work, where it's like,

I can't live without doing this. You know what I mean? Like he suddenly got his sort of, you know, his driver's motor. Yes, right. Perhaps, um, he himself was a rage. A bit of perhaps crushed by ambition. Yes, he says the person's ability brought back in that ring helped him understand a little bit more about the character. Uh, he wanted to make a film about self-destructiveness, obviously, right? Like to sort of lay that bear. He reviews the film as kind of a rehabilitation for himself. He says, I don't

want to explain a person with like one Freudian term. I don't like that's take all that out. So we're

“not going to make a movie about how like his dad was mean to him. And that's why he's a piece of”

shit, which is interesting too. By the way, so the brotherly bond and in the film really,

that is the only representation of family. Oddly, they never, if ever, really, ever talk about their

parents, we don't know why they, they both, what home they came from and why they're like this, these two brothers, interesting. I also think the brother had been minimized in the first year for projects. It's interesting. Shrader similarly is not interested in this project. Yeah. He's trying to make American jiggle though. You know, he's sort of transitioning to being, you know, a more of a director, director himself. So it's like no one, De Niro is the engine. Like both

scorsesians, Shrader are like, I don't know, you know, they take Shrader script with Paul's blessing to a Caribbean island, St. Martin, I believe, and just work on it for weeks together. They combine characters. They rewrite the dialogue. De Niro, if he's due credit on a script, it's this one, according to, you know, like he's very involved, but neither are them submitted. So that didn't even attempt to get it into Martin and Shrader. Yeah. Um, the other thing that gets changed is

they, they greatly minimize the presence of the mob in his life. Right. And they put a lot of that out for the mob coming in for him because they're just like, we've done this. That's not what this movie's about who needs this. This is cliche. Shrader had written a long like three-page masturbation monologue in which, uh, Lamada is in prison trying to jerk off and failing, because he's such a failure. Who of a amongst us has not been there? Bob and Marty took that out

because they felt it was too much. Shrader says one of the best things I ever looked on the way that took it out. And he's filming it next year, right. But of course, as he was honestly like, you know, like, it was just, it's impossible to show this kind of stuff and like retain anything in terms of like the audiences interest. I got a pitch camera from the point of view of the penis.

“Sure. That's how you felt. It's just him going, um, whatever. The final result is a script that”

people like De Niro hangs out with the real J. Lamada. Lamada is on set for some of the boxing scenes. Um, it's interesting because I wonder what he thought of the movie. Lamada lived to be like

eat chocolate and drink wine all day. You're like, maybe this is the key to long life. If you just

“get in the ring and have your face fucking beaten in, he says that on set he would kind of be like,”

I have such a son of a bitch. Like he would be self-deprecating, but in kind of a charming way, it must be wild to watch people act out these scenes from your life in a movie that's not glamorizing you. Well, wait a second. There's a lot. There's no way Lamada lets this happen without thinking in some way. It's glamorizing. You're right. He has to say there's no way it's on there set. Not going to make it a movie about me, baby. I'm alive. I mean, I'm going to be

compounded of, uh, uh, uh, uh, the white conversation. Mount Rushmore, you know, as we all know,

they, De Niro gets incredible shape to make this movie. And then they take a four month break and

De Niro goes on what they call essentially a pasta tour. He just goes to Northern Italy and

“France for four months stuffing his face to get the weight to play later, Jake. That sounds like”

the greatest trip. I'm kind of the on a pasta tour. I'm like, I want like a 30 to 40 year pasta tour. Great. I had pasta just last night made great pasta. Um, I'm like kiss where I keep saying, like, this is the final pasta tour. And then I extend it for another three years. Um, apparently Jake Lamada in his real act would recite Shakespeare. And this end of the movie was him doing that. And Michael Powell, again, the seem director was just like, that's not going to work.

Now, like, Shakespeare's just all wrong for this. So they they instead go for the on the water front because that's kind of like, that's his iconography. That's also a truth. It's strange with infection thing where if that were in a movie, you'd be like, this is too much of a flourish.

This is pretentious. The real guy would never see this. Yeah, but, but yeah, the the on the water

front thing is a risk to it is because if you think about it, the movie ends in such a ridiculously stark metaway. Right. It's multiple layers of meta. It's De Niro reciting the monologue from on the water front. He's reciting it flat without emotion, without passion, clearly saying that these words of dialogue require some sort of illustriousness, some sort of performance quality. I think that this guy does just does not have. So then that ends and he does his on the boss

on the boss on the boss on the boss on the pack. And then Scorsese speaks to the audience with a Bible passage. He does. It's the once I was blind. But now I can see literally describing the intention, invention and impact of the moving image. Really saying, we were blind. We didn't have movies,

“but now we can see. And it's the empathy machine argument. It's like this is the best way to understand”

how other people is through movies. Right. And here's the risk of that. There's the risk in the Shakespeare. There's the risk in this. It's essentially it can be viewed as a pat on the back. Yes, Scorsese going, this is my masterpiece. I can do that. I'm making more than just a film about a boxer. I'm making a film about film. It's again, Tarantino saying having Brad Pitt say it's a masterpiece. It's bold. It's but if you are a guy who knows you are an incredibly talented filmmaker

and loves film and is losing the chance to make films because of one film going awry, New York, New York and you're a drug addict. Yes. And your wife leaves you. You might be losing life. You've lost your love. You've lost your love. You have a choice at this moment. You either end the movie

with some Shakespearean bullshit or you come right out and basically say to the audience in a

pleading way, I deserve to make films. Yeah. I look at this damn thing. Films are my passion. Once I was blind and now I can see. And here, here it is. Raw, as fuck. And also I refuse to self-destruct in the way that this man did. I refuse to be stuck hammering the fucking jewels out of my championship belt. And you come away going. Scorsese, New, exactly what he was doing when he made this film or do you go, there's no way he could have known the true impact of what

this film is on a humanistic level. Is it an accident that this story that he didn't want to tell about this dopey, ego maniacal violent, conflicted boxer? Is it an accident that it turns out to be emblematic of human frailty itself? Does he know he's making that movie when he's making it?

That is what he connected to in the boxing sequences of that feeling of just being in there

“and it making sense. And the beauty of it, right? Even when how beautiful it is. Yes. You know,”

I will also say, by the way, five over. Trader was like, what the fuck is that about? He was like, huh? What are you trying to say? Say this in salvation? It is also, you know, a tribute to his film teacher. Hey, he maneuvered. Oh, yes, yes, he would pass away. You know, right after it says in honor of him. Yeah. And I do feel like he is talking about like what this person did for him as well, like, you know, changing his view of how he understood and understood film. The other thing I read was

that I think the Shader version was more intercutting between the the older lemata and his glory days. If you can call them that and they made the big structural decision of like, it's bookends. Right. It's one flashback rather than a series of him recounting his whole like, do we cock style originally was more structure for them? Right. Yes. Which so many topics are now, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you are in walk harder. You know, I mean, walk hard. I mean,

“you're in both. Yes. You're in both. Yes. You're in great. That's how you eat yourself.”

I basically paraded myself. I'm in the Springsteen movie. Did not see it. Which came out,

where you saw, we have it deliver us from nowhere. I've already had a full in the floor where most people stand. That kind of gets kind of the movie. Does it really? That's interesting. Oh, wait. Can I tell a juicy story? Please. Okay. I'm going to do this because I haven't told the story yet about that. So we're going to take a little sojourn into Springsteen, deliver me from nowhere, world briefly and you can choose to cut it if you want to. My scene is my one-on-one scene is

which Jeremy Strong. I was playing John's playing John's Land. I have heard what everyone has heard that Jeremy Strong is stays in character and blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. And so yes, I'm a little scared of Jeremy Strong and I show up to the set and I'm also ready to fight. I'm like, if he fucks with me, if I have to work around this kind of fashion, I saw the film, you play the

“head of a Columbia Ryhead set. Yes. And I think CBS records. And yes, that's correct. And so I have”

this scene. I've only have two scenes in the movie. The second scene is me

hearing the first version of Springsteen's Nebraska and not understanding how it's marketable and you know why we're doing, why we're going in this direction. And Landell, Jeremy Strong is making the case for having to happen something that's Springsteen. Okay. So, so up on set, Jeremy Strong, nicest guy. He's not in character. He is in voice. He's doing the affectation. A big difference that is often the case when you hear stories about people staying in character,

not where they're like, they're talking to you about craft services. They're just holding on. They're just holding on to the accent. Yes. He's doing that. And so I'm in and he's very sweet and wonderful. And he's a great actor. And I'm relieved. And we shoot the scene. And he says, after the first take, he says, I wrote a monologue for this scene that I'd like to try on film. Now, my new Springsteen is there. Landell was there. Yeah. Well, we're filming Scott Cooper directing. Sure. He does the monologue.

The hole in the floor. The hole in the floor monologue is written by Jeremy Strong. And it's long. And I'm thinking, not bad. By any stretch of the imagination. But I'm thinking, selfishly, I'm like, well, this scene just became a six minute scene. Sure. Or an eight minute scene. And if they love this monologue. Yeah. This is all that's going to be in the movie. Sure. His me sitting there listening to this monologue and I'm thinking not shit. They cut and they come away.

And they know, no way. It was never said. This monologue is no. No. Springsteens like no. Landell's

like no. Cooper's like no. Jeremy Strong. God love them. Does not take no for an answer. It does not see. Let me try again. Let me try again. And so he does a pair of it phrased version of it on the next take. And the next take. And it's changing. It's evolving. Is he shortening it? No. He's not shortening it. It's just changing. He's trying to refine the the profundity. And they got it. And we step off set while they set up the next shot. And I hear Jeremy Strong speaking a Scott Cooper about it.

And all I hear really is him making his case for it and saying, Sean told me to fight for what I want as an actor. Penn. I don't know. Interesting. And I'm just standing there. And I said,

supposed asshole, what have gotten upset, he laughed as asshole. Yeah. Lovely human being. I interviewed him for that movie. I was very termed by him. He's a very nice human being normal kind. And all that to say, you don't think he's a vet, but then I see the trailer for the film. And the trailer is that monologue. But then they cut the monologue out of them. And so wait. So I'm like holy shit. It's the monologue that they didn't like made the movie. And now I'm certain to go, wait a second. Am I? Like how

there's no way people are going to sit through an eight minute scene. And if that's in the movie, then I wonder what was cut. Yeah. I reach out to Scott Cooper. I say, wow, I can't believe you know, that made the movie. And he goes, oh, it's not in the movie. And it's not the monologue

from the trailer is not in that. It's amazing. That was the whole movie waiting for the trailer.

So it's a wonderful marketing thing. Yeah. Yeah. That Jeremy wrote how pasted the conversation. They had on set with a kind of something up. So maybe we use it for the trailer. Yeah. No, I talked to him about it for that movie. And I said, you know, your whole god damn process is so insane. But was it weird that you had the guy and could go check with him? Yeah. Versus like half these movies where it's like you're playing some dead person. There's no voice on that. Right. And instead,

this is like, he's fucking sitting over there. And he's that better. Is that worse? Like, and he was kind of like, it was interesting. I mean, he wasn't in the rage and bull was the same way. Lamada is there. He is there. He is there. And it's like that. I strikes me something that could be difficult if he tries to interfere. But I don't think he was there at all. There's no way he did because he's probably feeling lucky they're doing. And also they do, they make him in moments

into a monster. Yes. I don't think there's a human being on earth that would sit there and go,

“yeah, make it more monstrous. Right. I think it's vital that you start with him as a monster.”

Like, I mean, not just not the, you know, with the steak that yes, we're just like, good God, this guy's like, it is, you know, peek or whatever. Almost. And he's a piece of shit and Larry calls him an animal. He called me a fucking. You're an animal, Larry. You know what? You're an animal. Your mother's an animal. He goes to the mother right away. Oh, there's a lot of money. He loves bringing out the mom. Yeah. Joe Pashy just was a child actor on the New York

stage had not been in a film. It's from 1961. Hey, let's twist until 1976 is the death collector. Right. Which is the TV movie that they end up seeing. Right. Yeah. He was worn out. He'd given up. He didn't really like the business of acting. He likes acting as an art. He says like, you know, but he was pretty sick of. He's a hustle. Yeah. He catches wind that they want him for this role. He figured it was like a small role and was basically like, give it to a working actor who wants it.

I'm running a restaurant in the Bronx for some friends of mine. You're like Joe Pashy. The story's obviously he's helping some friends of his own. Just helping a friend. I was out of that place in Hollywood where you're at everyone's mercy all the time. You know, he basically just, you know, he's sick of it. Then he meets Marty and Bob. He saw working with them would be different.

It was always you said because didn't you ever had somehow seen the death collector on tape

and was like, this guy's interesting. And there's a scene. I guess in that movie where he runs a crap game and they like to energy. I haven't seen the death collector. And, you know, they just

“like the way he talks. And that's how that happens. Kathy Moriarty. Joe Pashy had seen her picture in a club.”

Like to the look of her sheet never acted. She was 19. Which defies logic. You watched this performance and he was soon they cast a third year role to his playing young. Well, she's got that great old person voice. It's been seen. He's got that great. A little she's got a little bit of smokiness. And she has stunningly beautiful in a classic film. She's a beauty. Yes. But they obviously needed someone who was kind of flinty and tough and like, you know, could stand up to everyone.

And then I don't know how they get that out of a picture in a club. But I guess they meet her and they get it. They shoot the fight scenes for 10 weeks. They shoot, then they shoot dramatic scenes for 10 weeks. Then they take a four-month break. Everyone is paid. Yeah. Well, De Niroi is on his eating tour. They shoot the dancing for 20 weeks. 20 weeks. In saying, then a four-month break. And then he comes back and they do the rest of it. Which is not on the map. Not to me. Okay. When I read the

whole, the the older Lamada stuff is is not heavy running time. You know, if you had it all up.

“No, it's like 10 hours. Yeah. I think it's a half hour. Okay. It's the last half hour.”

They, when they just start doing some prep, they, he shoots some 8-millimeter footage of Bobby training in a gym. And Michael Powell, again, scorsizes his mentors. Like, the gloves wouldn't be red back then. Because he had like red box and gloves. And he's like, you know, back then,

gloves were basically like that kind of like brown. It's been around, brown or black. And

from the Rockies and all the other sort of boxing movies right now. Like, I want to look different because those movies are all bright reds and blues and all that. Right. That's point Rocky is all American flag. And number two, and this is a nerdy score says he reasoned. He's really upset that color stocks are fading like Eastman film. Yes. The colors like not lasting. I get some of the preservation and yeah. And then beyond that, he's just kind of like, it'll look period. It'll look

like an old like daily news photo from the era. Right. Like, it'll have that great argument. That is what the movie gets at. Right for me. Yeah. And then in the book, apparently it opens with

Jake Lamott as first sentences. When my memories come back to me, I have the feeling that I'm

“watching an old film in black and white. Marty says I don't remember that, but apparently that”

isn't there. Can I say there's a haphazard result out of it, which is, which is. Yes, let's say, you know, yes, there's an old feeling to it. They're we're telling a classic story, a crude raw story. There's no color. It's black and white. His life is black and white. It's either that. He's got it together and he's handling his life well or he's a complete and other dark maniac. Right. Black, dark, maniac. But there's also this haphazard effect on the comedy. Because we're seeing comedy

clearly in, you know, deliberate comedic moments mixed in with violence. It's the three studios. It's that pattern. Yes. It softens it in a way. Yeah. If it's in color, it's almost too vivid. If you see the blood and the blood is red, it's almost too much. I was going to say accident in a way. Yeah. It is the black and white of it softens the comedy. Yeah. If this movie

“were in color, it would be talked about as one of the most violent movies of all that is very true. Yes.”

Yeah. And obviously he'd already had that experience in the tracks. He'd try it right now. He wanted to do the ring scenes as if like the viewers are the fighter, right? Yeah. And, you know,

you're not cutting to the audience much. Like you never really see them going like,

get it or whatever. And they wanted you to just wrap it in the background of shots. As you said, it's a lot of smoke and a lot of just black backdrops. Frank Warner, the full week guy, sound effects guy used melons. He would fire rifles into them and stuff. Like he did all kinds of weird sound effects. Obviously at some point they dropped the sound, which is so scary and impressive and then they bring it back to really get you. Chris, you're been, I'm realizing in another life you

could have been a fully artist. Yeah. It feels like some real benches. Interesting down and go, what sounds like a punch should a rifle into a melons? Totally. That's the way your brain works. Yeah. It seems really fun to come up with those concepts, experiment. And as I said, everyone is different. They didn't want to repeat sounds. So they did like a massive mass of number it takes in different techniques. And then obviously also, this is the reunion of Martian Thelmaskumaker,

who will edit all the rest of his films. Yes. This was, I think, voted by the editor society. She won the Oscar. She won the Oscar, but I think it was voted the best edited film of all time. What's there a sound editing Oscar at this time? Let's take a look. There's a sound Oscar. I think there wasn't, but let me see, because you know, remember they would sort of do like special, best sound. Look, it did go to the Empire Strikes back. Which does have pretty good sound.

Yeah. High bar there. Yeah. It was nominated of difficulty. Yeah. But it, the best sound was given by the Empire Strikes back. Raging bowl was nominated for Best One Two Us was one for editing and one for Robert De Niro. Best Zero One for this? Yes, he did. Okay. For acting, for acting and directing. Okay. It's obviously, this is, although I think he wasn't there,

“maybe for Godfather, I think it's the first time he took that correct. Am I crazy?”

To say that he hasn't won an Academy Award since. Right. That's correct. He has just two.

He's exactly two. Wow. And I feel like that it's been buzzing around is a time to finally

give my third sense of the lineings. Right. Silver linings and Firemoon. He's nominated for both. There's a long gap. Like he doesn't get nominated for any Cape Fear and Silver linings. Is that right? I think that's right. Yeah. I don't know what his third Oscar would have been exactly. I mean, it should have been the intern. Have you seen the intern? No. It's phenomenal in the intern. Yeah. He plays an intern. This is the ordinary people year. Obviously. So that's what wins Best

Picture and Director. Wow. What a year. Good Lord. Yeah. It beats, obviously, Timothy Hutton wins Sporting Actor over Hessey and Mary Steenberg and wins Best Sporting Actress from Melvin and Howard. It's just a good one. I lovely performance. Yeah. Over Kathy. And Best Adapted Screenplay

because the movie is heavily improvised. Yeah. And is there even a script? There are, but it's not like

“they stuck to it. Yes. There's no way. And to me, the most shocking one, the losses this in a”

photography loss. Yeah. So there's yeah. Let's talk about the film. There's two scenes in this movie. One that I don't like and one that I absolutely love. Give him to him. Okay. The only scene I don't like in this movie because it's a little on the nose for shadowing

is them at, you know, on their first date mini golf. They lose the ball. She shoots it into some

structure on this mini golf thing and the ball doesn't come out. And I felt like, okay, he's telling us that this guy is going to lose everything that, you know, sometimes you take a shot and it doesn't end up doing anything. Right. Okay. So that felt that in retrospect watching and I was like, okay, this this scene is a little like the screenwriting 101. I'm, you know, and that's not to knock anything, but it's, it's not right. Alternatively, I'll, I'll turn a tiffly. I don't know how to speak,

just the bit with the champagne glasses stacked at the end. Yes. Representing balance. Sure. And Scorsese at that point deep into this film. Now we're about an hour and 45 into the two

hours. Yeah. When we're past his career and he's now, this is running the club.

So why is that scene in this film? Right. It's him proving himself that he can balance this thing, but Scorsese is playing now with what he established. Like, what is he saying to the audience, you don't know what to feel. Do you? Yeah. There is no balance. You're watching our lead character balance this, this thing. Access. He's balancing. He can't balance how you feel. I know you can't. I'm Scorsese. I made a movie that it is confusing you. You don't know what to feel. And if you feel

“disturbed, maybe that's the only thing you feel because you just don't, you're used to being told what”

to feel or assuming what you should be feeling. And this movie is so cross genre. There's 10 genres.

You don't know what to feel. And so you're conflicted. You're uncomfortable. And honestly,

watching that balancing and his pride in it, to me is the glorious moment of this movie. A movie filled with blood, the glorious moment is him doing this champagne balance and smiling and getting the congratulations from the few people that are gathered around that. There's something so disturbing about that moment and so gross. The employee comes up and says your wife is here. Yeah, just because it would be very more distinctive. Right. He's just like, let me do this. That's the real point of it for me.

Is that what he's balancing is an overflowing amount of alcohol for nobody's right? And it's like, what is the victory? It's an incredibly tense scene because we've watched him fail to navigate the simplest human interactions throughout the movie. And anytime this guy fucking sits down for dinner or talks to someone, you're like, is he going to explode? Is he going to? And then you can feel the tension in the scene and in the audience, like, are the fucking glasses going to fall over?

Yeah. Is he going to scream at you? He does the fake out work. He does the fake out. And then you're so your tense because you've spent your whole life with this guy, it feels like just being on edge about what a monster he can be. And then he does it. And you're like, huh, I feel triumphant. Then you feel bad about that. Yeah. You're like, he did a good job. And then it's just just this kind

“of revulsion. And there's this weird triumph to it. That's what I love about this movie. The same”

with him in the prison cell, were you feel bad for him? Yeah. But then you're also just like, he's a monster. Like, you know, and like, he made out with a 14-year-old in the club. And yeah, you know, at his club as the owner, as the, and then when he says, they're like, what? I mean, his defense isn't even. I didn't know she was right. It's what does she look 14 to you? And then say that by side of her as she is and her kind of stuff. Yeah. And you're just,

you're just like, I want him locked up. And then he's, you know, pummeling the wall and you're just like, you know, I would, well, what is locking, you know, like, what, what's had his faction in my getting out of this. I already knew he was like this broken animal. Get, I, it's, well, so he will, he, he dissolves into banging his head against the cement wall and saying dummy over and over again. And then that turns into boxing practice. Like, he breathes

This is the kind of movie. You exit the theater. And the person you're with goes, what do you think? Yeah. And you're afraid to answer in an elaborate way of a thousand thoughts. But you don't want to be wrong. Yeah. And so he saves great. And that's all you say. It's very well-traveled. Whatever you say, whatever you say, says a lot about you.

“Yeah. And that's what you're talking about. And so, and it's exactly what he's doing.”

He's putting the audience in such an awkward position. How do you feel, is he was you like? When was he fun to follow? Was he funny? Was he was he the disgusting human being? You know, we all spend the majority of our lives negotiating with the reality of who we are and not ever accepting who we really, really are. And it isn't until the I'm a dummy, gosh,

my head, that we see the pain of accepting who you really, really are who Jake finally accepts.

He is a dummy. You're so stupid. You ruined everything. You're a bum, you know, it's, and it's brutal to do that. But it's also brutal to negotiate with the reality. So there's the rock in the heart place, you know what I mean? I also think it, we would be crazy not to talk about the style of comedy in this film. Can we do that? Please. So we're now entering into this nuanced sort of circumstantial comedy. There's not a single written joke in this movie.

Mm-hmm. There's just little things being said behavior, maybe in private behavior or maybe him just and it's gutterly funny. And a lot of it's also just rhythmic. It's correct. The

martyrs and just never has the right answer to it. Yeah. It's the opposite of Woody Banner. Yes.

And some of these lines, I wrote down, if you don't mind, there's the, he says when he throws

“the fight and Billy Fox, I think, or Jimmy, is it Billy Fox? Yeah, I think it's Billy Fox is the”

fight or he fights who does a bad job making it look like a real fight. He can't talk because he's too embarrassed. And he ends up getting suspended. Lamada gets suspended and he's looking at the paper. And we've had this, this, this, this very funny physical bit where he, he smacks. Peshie says smack me, let me show you something. Just smack me and he smacks him and Peshie boom. It's awesome. Yeah. Oh, that's so hot. Here's what he does. He goes, put your hands up. Right. Right. There's not even a

smack. And Lamada just puts his hands up and Peshie falls straight down. That's right. Yeah. There's also in that scene. He picks up the dinner picks up the paper and says, look at this. Look how they make me look. They make me look like a bum, like a Mama Luke. And Peshie goes, like, Google Peshie goes, yeah, a what? And he goes, like, the Mama Luke could a year. It's just like, you know, there's no way they don't know while they're making it that that's funny.

And while they're editing these, who knows what's not in the movie from all that improv. There's no way it's not improvised, like the Mama Luke could a year. That's one of my favorite. Then there's the, uh, there's the moment where he throws the fight. He knows it. Look bad. He's crying his eyes out

“and start contrast to the fight where he, I believe he loses. It's in the beginning. He loses the”

first fight. We see him in. Yes. He loses, but like, there's a somewhat moral victory.

Correct. You kind of had him. Yeah. I think it's that spider. Maybe it's one of the sugar ray fights, but he's sitting in the whatever the dressing room or whatever, it'd be afterwards. And there's a real piece. Yeah. He got what he needed out. Yeah. It's like post-coidal for him. Yeah. He's sitting there. Everybody else is kind of freaking out. Oh, yeah. That's right. Joe Peshie's like, "Dank fucking Rob Joe." You know, and he's sitting there going, it's all right. It's all right.

And he says he goes, "Ah, you know, maybe I'd deserve it. Maybe I've done some bad things in my life." All of a sudden, you get, well, there's some emotion. There's intelligence there, some awareness, you know, what a weird thing to say from this crude guy to say, "You know, I'm maybe it's just karma." You know? But later, there's the scene where he throws it and he's with his small hands, but later, he's crying hysterically. Yeah. And his trainer goes,

"You know what? Don't fight ever again. It's a free country. Don't fight ever again." I, that line has me scream, and then his, his trainer that old man starts to cry. Yeah. But before you know, "Don't fight again. It's a free country. Don't fight again." I just think the small hands thing is so big, because as you said, like, he loses the opening fight, but he has inner peace because he feels like he proved what he needed to prove.

Right. And then after he wins what is the biggest fight of his career, he cannot get over the fact

incapable of actually getting, I can't get the fight that proves that I'm the best. And then you got Peshie. Yes. What wrong with you? Why would you care about that? As crazy as sick. You know, what are you talking about? You want to fight Jolio Neville? You're a heavyweight. He's a heavyweight.

Yeah. It's never going to happen. He's a heavyweight. He's a heavyweight. He's a heavyweight. Yeah. It's never going to happen. He's a

“wife. He's a wife. He's like, "Who gives you worry about you?" It's the things you worry about. That's why”

you sick bastard. That's why you're a fat fuck. It's so good. But Peshie is let loose. The heavyweight thing is really telling. Yeah. We're like, you can tell a modest like, "Well, but I wouldn't actually be the best unless I could fucking knock down. Right. And it's just like, "Well, you're not fucking capable of that. Right. You're literally not large. It's irrelevant." And like, even if you went to the weight of a heavyweight, you would just be a ball. Yeah. So like, it's over. He never gets over it. Yeah. He never gets

off. You know, she beats Sugar Ray one time who is kind of a king of his division. And that's something.

But you can tell, like, from there on, that's very early in the movie. But there's no way he's going to

ever feel like he won't ever feel exactly vindicated in his business. And everything falls apart, right? The comic engine of this movie that really, the movie hinges on the comedy or else it's, it's too miserable to watch is the brother dynamic. It's a brother comedy. Two very different brothers. One's a handsome tall, really physically fit, beast, animal, and his, you know, wise cracking, but sensible, a little pugnacious Napoleon complex, tiny brother. You know, they both have the same

size hands, but other than that, there's nothing. And there's a ton of comedy, and even that becomes tragic. Yes. You know, he beats the shit out of his brother and then he tries years later to, to, you know, his brother won't hug him back. Yeah. Oh, kiss me. Come on, kiss, get to me.

Basically hug a task. Yeah. Give me a kiss. Give me a kiss and he won't do it. He never does it. He

gets in his car. He says, yeah, I'll call you. Peshitoz. Yeah. You know, you'll call me, yeah, I'll call you. You sure? Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it's like everything goes to shit. Yeah. Score says he's going, you want me to be cruel. I'm going to take the funny stuff away now. I'm going to make the funny, the stuff you were watching in the beginning that really you, you were enjoying. I'm going to take that away. I'm going to ruin that for you. You know,

there are certain films and certain filmmakers who have no problem being mean to an audience. Mm-hmm. You know, that, you know, let's, let's stick it to them. Let's make them bleed. And score says he has to. He, you know, it's the visceral reaction that he wants. He's not trying to get anyone going, again, no area-dite responses are necessary to a score say he's a film. Right. You're not, he doesn't want people walking out analyzing the shit, which is what we're

kind of doing today. Sure. Right. That's true. This is not what he wants. He wants you to come out in pain, feel something. Feel something so visceral. Yeah. Panic, you know, fear,

“care, you know, just, yeah, embarrassment. I think, yeah, a lack of identity. You don't want”

to admit who, how you felt about the movie because you don't want to like, think, make people think you're crazy if you say I like Lamada, right? Or I relate to him or I sympathize. You want you to think that he's got, he's got you on the ropes. How's that? How's that? Score says he, you got us on the, you motherfucker. I think there's another thing and it's because I love Martin's career. Nobody, nobody over and over and over again. And he sparks this discourse

among his viewers of like, well, that wasn't supposed to sympathize with that was I, it doesn't mean your response or does he sympathize with this? And he's just like human behavior, like, like this happens all the time. Right. And in the world of film, yes, very, very few filmmakers attempt to tackle the thing that Kubrick's all of Kubrick's movies are about, which is the fight between the consciousness of humanity and the subconscious nature of animal instinct. And

that, that inherent battle, you know, so you really, man, that's a tough line in a film. But if film is made for anything, it's for that. And that's a real ambitious thing to do. Very few filmmakers can pull it off. This is, if, at this point, if Score says he hasn't done it with taxi driver, this is him and putting an exclamation point on, I can do this as a filmmaker. I can show you a film that will get to the base issue of humanity. And very few filmmakers can do it completely in a

full way where the, where the message is clearly sent, and yet there's mystery as to how, well,

“it's done if that makes sense in a way. I think there's another massive thing that doesn't”

do. Yes. Yeah. I think the other massive thing going on here is Score says, I mean,

down, because laughter is involuntary. You can make people laugh at bad behavior without judging.

Mm-hmm. It's a thing that just happens. It just happens. And this is all involuntarily. There is no single, like I said, written or deliberate joke. And hard to put your finger on, why is this fun? This is barely laugh stuff. And yes, New York has the same, very repetitive versus, and it's not funny. And it's, it's actually just punishing and singing off. Yeah. Thinking, I hate this guy, because I don't like spending time with him. There's nothing even

entertaining about spending time with him versus if it's entertaining, if you can locate what is both the comedic and dramatic motor of a scene and just whining that up, it's, it's what he said when he read the book, there are scenes in this. I see that. There are scenes, incidents, setups in this that are interesting. Yeah. And if you can make those entertaining, the audience is with you a long way until they start to intellectualize it. The map. Mm-hmm. That is established

in the late '70s to be able to tell these sort of human frailty stories with comedy, with, you know, part of that map is, is Annie Hall. Mm-hmm. Okay. Woody has done this thing where he goes, oh, you want to see a movie about human frailty? Mm-hmm. Cast me as the lead. I'm going to cast myself as lead. Done. Mm-hmm. So by time raging bullets come out, audiences are used to seeing these films about fragile men who are crushed by ambition and burdened by their ability.

“And so, Scorsese, I think, uses that zeitgeist to then give you something so horrifying.”

Lamada is probably a much, much more classically frightening monster, movie monster, than Lamada was as a person. Yes. Right. There's some exaggeration. There's some in who he is for the film for film sake. Also the density of the story when you're limiting it to the highlights, you're seeing disproportionately his explosions. And it's, it's, in my opinion, one of the scariest performances I've ever seen. Mm-hmm. When I was 21, especially seeing this

for the first time, De Niro's performance scared the bejesus out of me. There are times he truly goes dead eyed. He gets so animalistic. Yeah. That you go, whoa, I didn't think a human being was, there's a psychotic nature to this performance. I also think that like the 70s New Hollywood has the rise of the anti-hero that really starts in the late 60s. But this is a big shift into

like, this guy's not even an anti-hero. Right. This is putting the guy you'd never put at the center

of the picture right there. Yeah. Right. Right. Because it's, you know, something like, me and I cowboy has like, well, Ratsau Rizzo is on the side. Yeah. And you have very information to, doesn't quite understand what he's getting into at the center. That balances it out. Mm-hmm. That makes you feel less dirty from where you're identifying. But this is the Ratsau Rizzo movement. Sort of. And again, another reason they don't,

they can't make this today. No. No. They don't make movies. You know, Peshie, when he blew up after winning the Academy Award for the 90s. Yeah. Suddenly,

“he's doing, you know, a couple of the super. Yes. Remember my cousin Vinnie. Yes. You know,”

those movies are great. They are. But it's like movies where suddenly Hollywood is like, what's a vehicle for you? Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Now days. They don't do that. No. If you were to ask an executive, hey, is it a good marketing strategy to make a movie about a freaky person? They would be like, hmm, we can't do it. Yeah. Yes. But wouldn't an audience like to see something different. Different for different sake. Wouldn't they like to see something

this guy small or little watching us? Chubby. Yes. Strange. And, and the answer on, you know, Danny Layman, who isn't a communications major straight out of college, who's been, who's failed upward into becoming a development executive at a studio, is of course we want to

see those. The problem is those people who make the decisions now are like, hmm, it's like

“Saber metrics. Yeah. They just go analytically with you. Wouldn't you want to say were metrics?”

You know, that Saber metrics are ruining Hollywood three. We are in the Saber metric period. Yes. Of Hollywood three point. Oh, whatever. I do love Hollywood three point of the take it all back. Hollywood three point out is better than ever. So then Saber metrics ruin Hollywood two point out and now we're going to something new with three points. I hope so because it's disgusting to be honest. I think this is what has happened. What the safeties do and I think of the Scorsese influence

that clearly is on their work. This is the movie that is the greatest I'm sure. And just this

of like how close can we get to a real person that's uncomfortable for you told sort of yeah.

“Now have either of you ever met or seen in Robert De Niro? I have nothing beyond a sort of a, you know,”

sort of press conference type scenario. No. I have and I have told my De Niro story on too many

podcasts. Okay. But there's a second. We will syndicate on someone awkward encounter. I had a very,

very awkward in a while. I kidnapped his kids for about 10 seconds. When they were ever at this story, it's an unbelievable thing. Yes. Saddled with it that you know, I kidnapped my heroes kids by accident. Yes. He's got twins. He was the twins that I kidnapped by accident. I accidentally by accident. I don't deliver kidnapping. It was actually their fault that they got kidnapped. That's, but I'm not going to get into the story because anyone can look it up and you'll see

that I'm not laughing about that part of it. Yeah. But the second story. So three years ago, I'm at the Saga Ward's for the Scoppin Hummerier, up in there for up and high. Yeah.

And De Niro is there for killers of the flower moon. Right. And I go to the bathroom. The

bathroom is back behind the curtains, back stage. And I go to the bathroom and standing in front of the men's room, seemingly waiting for someone to come out is Robert De Niro. And I see him and people are asking to take pictures with him and he's a bludgeon. I go in an IP. I'm in there. A reasonable amount of time. I come out. He still's out there. And I realize he's not waiting for anyone to come out of the bathroom. And what has formed is essentially a line of fans lined up to take pictures with

Robert De Niro as if he's like some sort of Disney mascot. Yeah. And he's happy to oblige. Sure. Now, this is clearly not the De Niro of 1980. No. There's no way this is the De Niro of 1990 of 2000. That's just someone who's stepped into the elder state. Correct. Other De Niro loves it. Yeah. Who loves the praise? And so I stand online. Wow. I joined the line. Now I'd met him a year's prior. I assume there's no way he remembers me.

And there wasn't. I went up to him and I said hi. Mr. Niro, I'm an actor too. I'm an up and high mirror. And I just want to say it's great to me. He has no idea who I am. And thankfully, because, you know, I don't think he loved the story of me kidnapping his children. And so, so I said he might as I take a picture with you too. And he said yes. And I took a picture.

“And he said cheese. Wow. And then I found out that's what he does.”

It with every fan. He reflects, at least says cheese. I mean, you're, so he says this guy. All right. Right. So yes, this guy who played Jaylamada, right, who played what's the name the character and cape. And he's Katie. Yeah. Oh my god. This is all ridiculously complicated actor. A person on screen where you're like the devils here. You know, like you're right. Yes. And then he did play the devil of course. And then it's cheese. Well, there's a little bit of

job there with his dignity still intact. Absolutely. But especially when he had such a hard pivot to comedy. Right. When he did the comedies and then he did the sort of era of like showing up in weird kind of red boxy movies. And he wrote doesn't get enough credit for being a great comedic actor. We're not very, very, very funny. Very funny. But, but you know, he made himself more of a public figure. He made himself the spokesperson of Tribeca and stroke a festival and open

up a restaurant politically charged and with his business. No way. He doesn't like Donald is he praying? David, does he? Has he come out on this? Pretty sure he's taking a weighty seat. I swear. Was it Bowie's afraid? There was some movie where he was doing it. No, it was megalopolis. Okay. We're like he did a Q&A with Copla and maybe Marty was there too. I can't

“remember. I love it. He knows Copla. Yeah. And like everyone who was there was like one minute”

and he was like, "I'm by the way, Trump is no good either." He can't help himself. He can't. Second, which I love. I love that very much. It feels very much like there's a personal issue, too. Yes. Because this is a new year. And because De Niro kind of owns a lot of property in Tribeca, which is, you know, and I'm sure Trump has his, you know, I'm there must have been something that happened in the past. I just love when he's at that award show and he says, "Fuck Trump."

But he doesn't just say, "Fuck Trump," he puts his arms up like that. Yeah. He goes on strong.

Here's what a Hulk Hogan. Here's what he said. Just imagine Donald Trump directing this film.

It'll never go anywhere. I'm sure everyone was like, "I don't think anyone thought Trump was in the running on directing megalopolis." By the way, you could say that about literally any movie.

The guy's not a good director." He likes the basic experience to direct a motion picture. And also, I love megalopolis. It's a fascinating document. That's not something where I was watching it be running on rails. Thank God, Trump didn't wreck this one. Do you remember, because it relates back to this movie? When it was the early stages of first-trump presidency, De Niro going "Fuck Trump." Yeah. And Trump made a public statement about it.

Maybe a tweet box up about De Niro. He's a washed-up old jerk. Boom. Boy, I cue. Right, low IQ. Right, right. He's lost his mind and he said, "I think he made one too many boxing pictures." His slam on him was, "Oh, he's punch-drunk. He's made one too many boxing pictures." He made one. He made raging bull. He made one second one, which is grudge-man.

“I was about to say, "No, you made grudge-man. Never forget." Which is De Niro versus Stallone.”

Great. And in this one of Trump's favorite movies. Yeah. What does it say? Probably. But also, within the same term, he gives Stallone like the national metal level. Yeah. So he's definitely seeing this one. That's the one. He's made a couple. Oh, he definitely watched. But you're not allowed to slam De Niro saying too many boxing pictures and be like, "By the way, here's my best friend." I'm sorry, first of all. Are you saying,

"This is where you draw the line." I'm off the side of it. And I'm using this episode to speak out against it. I do not like Donald Trump for this one reason. Can I take a moment, please? Still a moment away. And just say,

that I know a lot of amazing actors who would say that without the yes in a world of

Pacinos and Hoffman's and Nicholson's and Peter Fawkes, that they'd be nothing without Robert De Niro. Yeah. That Robert De Niro laid so much groundwork for so much amazing work to come after. And he's still doing it. I mean, I don't know if you guys saw that Netflix series. He did. That a lot of people didn't watch. Unfortunately, he was the president. He did not watch it. He did not watch it. Amazing. Amazing performance. Again, it's ridiculous. It's another character.

It's another thing. The guy, he's basically playing Joe Biden. Right. The guy in the elder statesman president to be crisis. The guy is just the ideal thing. And it's all like there's nothing that isn't derivative at this point. It's it's one of those things. It's like Led Zeppelin or something or Wu Tang Clan. We're just completely, there's no way you can ever say that anything new wasn't influenced by that thing. De Niro is that. I don't know if

“Scorsese is that I think Scorsese is a definitely dynamic filmmaker and definitely one of the”

for me top three of all time. But in terms of completely restructuring the art itself, no crumbs left on the plate. And that's from all crumholed finishing and that's from crumholed. God damn it. I hate that my name is David Crumholed in this moment. I just want to say, God, I love, I just, I'm get emotional. Yeah. I'm so glad that Robert De Niro exists. But to me, and I think he wants this. My guess is he doesn't want to exist. He wants his characters too.

Well, it's the part of him that hates doing press and seems like his toenails are being pulled out.

What an amazing unique thing that is. Yeah. An artist that doesn't want to take credit for his art

in a way. And doesn't, yeah, it's so, no sort of like it came out of nowhere. It's noble. Right. The profundity of what he was able to achieve amongst a world of actors. Wow. Robert De Niro, good actor. Beyond, good actor. Beyond on another level. It's like this thing I read about Wu Tang once. And you know, I love the Wu Tang clan where it says there's Wu Tang and then there's also hip hop. You know, Robert De Niro is just its own singular thing actor thing. I don't know how to do

that. I don't know if anyone knows how to be that, how to live with that talent. All we can all do as a collective, especially as ethnic, you know, American actors, you know, is strive for that. But

there's no escaping. There's you'll never be better than Robert De Niro. As an actor, you will never

“be better. Pound for pound than Robert De Niro. And that's okay. I think it's like Brando where”

especially other guys of his generation, you see that everyone goes, this is the new thing to strive for.

De Niro. And of course, there's no De Niro without Brando. Yes. I didn't just come out of nowhere.

“But he doesn't feel iterative. That's what's done. And he blasts that style through the stratosphere.”

Yes. So so he sees an opening. Oh, shit. Brando's doing a more sort of nuanced weird subtle off the cuff thing that no one else is allowed to do. I'm going to that's going to shoot. I'm

going to do that, but take it to an infinite level that again. I don't, there will never be another

actor better than Robert De Niro. There will be actors that are good as good. And there are. Denzel. And you know, the list goes on and on. There is no such thing as better. And then you speak to what is acting, right? What is it? It's a matter of degrees between the worst porn actor. The offense to porn. I certainly don't want to offend off the porn ography acting community and Robert De Niro. That what is the tangible thing that makes

De Niro better than your worst porn actor? Well, even as you said, there is nothing tangible that this is a matter of degrees is going to build to watching this guy give a bad performance night after night. Right. That it's a level of genius for De Niro to understand what a bad performance is. Yes. And to be able to play it, I've seen actors play bad actors. No one does it as well as De Niro. No. Sick. It's frightening in many ways. De Niro is maybe the most frightening

person on earth. That has ever lived. Are there specific in a way that I love and revere him? Of course. No, of course. And I would want to hug him and be his friend. Are there other specific scenes we want to shout out? We're talking about the stakes in a little bit. Stakes in a really start to get an impression of like this guy is being a piece of shit. Yes. He's got a wife we're barely going to get to know that you know that he just clearly treats like garbage. We're

watching the end of his first era. Yeah. He's sort of the beginning of his start, his athlete started him, but he's already, you know, lamenting out of a marriage because he's an abusive piece of

shit. There's all the stuff with Frank Vincent who basically always plays a guy who's going to

“get the ship. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that was the great deal. That's how we're so great. And that's”

just so great about good fellas. Well, that's the great score of crazy. It's, of course, says you go on and I can do this twice and yeah. And no one's and it'll be better the second time. Yes. That's amazing. That is the pool. You know, when they're at the pool, we'll touch the tough ends. Right. Yeah. And talking about Kathy Moroni and you see the sort of the seeds of his, um, what do you call insecurity? Yeah. He planted right there. Yes. Where

past she's like, well, you know, you got this, you got a this girl you got to go on a couple of days. I got to get to know it's not just going to sleep with you, you know, like, you know, and shot and you're the gate. Yes. Like he's in a cage. Right. But also like, catering her. Lamar right. Yes. Okay. Now, like, what's so you tried. Yeah. What you're telling me is you try. You try it. Because he doesn't want to be like sloppy. Yeah. Or whatever about she didn't go. She didn't go. Right.

And so then there's a triumph of he gets her. Yeah. Um, and her performance is just amazing because

you're just like, she's 19 that she's so young, but that just like so immediately you understand, like, oh, this is so much more than he can handle. Like, you know, like he just thought he was like getting some pretty young girl. That's where I can't believe that she's actually 19 because the amount of like presence in command she has holding her own in these scenes against these guys. She's probably scared shitless and she's probably it scared her into intimidated. I should use the

that's the word. Intimidated shitless and intimidated into just hanging on for dear life and not fucking a damn thing up. And by the end of the movie, she's playing 10, 15 years older than she is. Right. And you buy it totally buy it. You it's also like it's a 30 year old playing young at the beginning, then it does like a teenager playing old at the end. The contrast between the scene where early on, where where he tells Joey, you know, hit me, punch me. And Joey, you know,

beats the gives him a real good beating and even opens one of his cuts. You know, come on, you that's not come on. You can hit me, auto. What's wrong with you? Fuck a psycho. I made you hard, boom, boom, boom. And the scene later, they did you fuck my wife scene, where there's no physical violence. Yeah. But it's the emotional violence between two brothers. You know,

“you're sick, but you know, you sick guy, you know, how, how did you get balls big enough to ask me that?”

Where do you get balls big enough to ask me that I fuck your wife? You know, and how hurt how much more painful it is to give me the right answer, hurt each other like that. Yeah, the older brother

Jake's like, oh, well, he's not saying it. Yeah. So it must be true. Yes. And, you know, Jake probably

did hear things. And is it true? Yeah. Did did Vicki suck Joey's dick like she says she does later. And also talks about how his dick is bigger than then Jake's at this big dick than you show she knows that little upset him. She knows it. Or did it, is it true? At this point, Joey has a chance. Well,

“I think he didn't. The Neuro has a micro piece. I don't think you get that peshi energy from nowhere.”

I think, yeah, peshi's got a good hug at this point. That's good. How many years have you been holding on to this for? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I don't know if it's that. And the movie? Yeah. Oh, no, it's more like two, three years. Even still. No, he's holding on to he must have

heard something. Yes. You know, even just what's the truth out of his brother? He just

can't get over this idea five years. I just five. Okay. Okay. If you were very short to attack this guy this badly, what other reason could possibly exist other than my wife at the center of it? But their relationship, the brothers, you know, collapses in 1950. That's when the fight is. He loses that final fight to sugar ran 51. You see him go down. Yes, but you see Pet inner Joey at home watching it, knowing like it's because I'm not there as part of this. He's just kind of like

“he can't be controlled anymore. He's just wants to be murdered in the ring, essentially. Or at least”

approve something by like taking this ungodly beating and not falling down. You write like the cuts, you know, to pesky watching it at home, or he's just, it's not, I mean, I don't even get the sense that he's like, I'm failing my brother, but he is kind of like I understand that a piece of his balance now. It's right. Yeah. Because it's also another scene toward the end where, you know, this is post arrest post jail time. He's now doing stand up as the opening act for a stripper that

he's fucking. He doesn't have his own club anymore. In a tiny dive bar in New York City. Yes. And a guy is in the crowd heckling. I'm saying you're not funny. You suck. And we know that Jake Lamata, as we know him, would normally beat the fuck out of the guy. Yeah, but he doesn't. He just kind of agrees. He's like, yeah, do so. You're going to try and make me come out of your

“time? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's yeah. The piss in his drink for me, blah, bartender. In other words,”

he's he's he's completely castrated. Well, there's no part of him that is even fighting anymore. I think he knows, you know, he knows he physically can't do it anymore. Right. But he chooses stand up. There's the earlier scene where he goes to the club and sees the performance. And I think he recognizes something in that guy that of like, this is the closest thing to what I do. You are fighting the audience. Right. And the command that guy has when he's able to throw off all these

street jokes, but land them is a thing he envies and what is, of course, says he's follow up, the original king of combat. Well, is there something in between or is it straight? It's a good question. No, I believe it's not a comedy. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it is, it is a thing. I mean, clearly I'll move you about a delusional committee. Something in that sticks with these of your own. Yeah. Yes. There's a there's absolutely it's like a part two almost. Right. And that guy is much closer

to being a successful comedian. Lamada just like, it's back to our talk about the rhythms all wrong. You watch this stand up and he says jokes that are just a little bit off. There's the king of comedy, the spiritual sequel to raging book. It's part of the trilogy with text. Right. You know, like just like De Niro trying to plumb the depths of like a psychology, we are like, yeah, transwigs, but they're a five guy. I was obsessed with being a different type of guy. But you know,

why, though, because he must be fascinated with De Niro. Yes. Scorsese is probably fascinated. I guess they're trying to crack him a little bit. Try to crack that man. Well, you know, it means streets and it feels like watching a director fall in love with a star. You know, it feels as extreme as bug Donovitch introducing a civil shepherd or whatever. There is those that introduction, it's like what the fuck is this that I have found. And I'm going to spend the

rest of my life chasing this and studying this from all end. Of course, De Niro no doubt is aware that he seriously stepped in some shit. Yeah, getting to work with Martin Scorsese. No one understands him better than this guy. No one knows about him better. It's that he's just one of the

greatest filmmakers period and the story. He's got the right guy in his corner. It's amazing. The symbiosis,

the whole thing. Rare, rare, rare, rare, rare. I love them stitching to me talking about rare and peshy timing. How quick they can do the stitch up on the cut. There's little details like that. Nicholas called Santo Coach from Cheers. Yes, this is last movie roll. And do we know what

first club scene. They sit down at a table and who's sitting there a very young John to turn on.

First credit. Yeah, but he doesn't say a word. Yeah. That's sort of like the lingering element of the mob stuff. You know, that's in the movie still but. Sure. Turn down. Yeah, because like that's a different story. Yeah. Like we're trying to get inside the brain of this man. There's no doubt that the mob was had heavy influence on New York's boxing scene in the '40s and '70s. But that's the least interesting thing going on. That's the same. The movie's kind of like, yeah. Right. That's DeGorgher.

Yeah. Michael, about a luchos in this film. Is it so to jerk? Okay. Like, you know, like, you know, just funny to think about. Yeah. Guys who had tiny little roles, there's a lot of people in the movie like that they're sort of hanging around. But like, it really is basically just the three. Yeah. Like people like Frank Finston, Nicholas Carlson, you know, like they're aiming out for little bits. Right. Um, his dad's in this movie, Charles Scorsese. This is the first

one. The first time is like one of the mobsters. Yes. I mean, and we talked about this in the Scorsese short episode. We did on Patreon. But it's how you know, American and American boy really,

“I think teach him the rhythm that he wants to replicate in his dialogue. Yeah. Right. It's how to get”

improv to get the feeling of that sort of conversational pattern, the back and forth. And so much of his parents fighting in Italian American is the feeling of, yes, a family fight scenes in this movie. No. And that's the other thing about this movie and like all great Scorsese movies. Not all, not all of them have this, but it's, it's indelibly Italian. It is. American. Yes. Yes. A question. Islamana in the movie? I thought at one point that he's the referee that hands, he's definitely

the belt over. Yeah. I think that's who he plays to De Niro and De Niro finally wins the championship. I believe there's a shot of the referee walking toward the camera and I feel like that islamana, but I might be wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. I might be wrong. I may belamana's not in the movie. Yeah. I'm not seeing anything. I don't know. Not sure. He was certainly there. He said that

“De Niro got so good at boxing that he was like, I think that guy could have like held his own in the”

ring. Like he was impressed with him. But obviously he's also, you know, he's being a Schmoozer. A corned IMDB. Lamada's not in this. Yeah. I couldn't find him either. Yeah. He does have like a weird semi-resurgence of acting roles. Lamada? Yes. He's in a 87 movie called Hangman. He's a detective in Maniacop in 88. He's in a movie called Mobore. So he does sort of and he has like credits leading up to this. I can't believe you just said Mobore. Why, do you know Mobore? I am in Mobore. You're in Mobore?

No, I'm kidding. No, okay. You believed it though. I didn't believe it. It's believable that I would believe it. Like as a nine-year-old I would be in a movie called Mobore. Could have been possible. Yeah. Sure. You could have been a little Jimmy down this photo of the Mobore, a little Jimmy, Jimmy Bumble. We haven't mentioned Jim Bumble. A wild thing about this movie is that it's produced by Orwin Winkler, who not only had produced New York in New York. Yeah.

Which was his biggest failure, but also produced the Rocky movies. Like he's he's willingly

“signing off to make an anti-rocky. I think that was part of the appeal. Yeah, it's it's bold of him though.”

Yes, it is bold of him, but I mean he's obviously part of the problem with New York New York is he's not someone who'd ever made a musical before. Yeah. So he's a producer. They keep running wildly over schedule and all this with this at least he knows. Like exactly how to do it.

But this wasn't expensive movie. Yes. Sure. It cost $18 million and it made like $25.

It wasn't a success, per se. Yeah. On release we can talk about that. This is like a couple of other things. You know, when they're in the final edit, they have like some deadline. It was opening on Friday and it's like Sunday. They gotta be done. They have a print with they have to get it like over to the lab by midnight. And Marty doesn't like that there's this one scene where a minor character played by Marty's father is ordering a drink ordering a cutty shark with the whisky.

And Marty's like, you can't hear him saying it. You can't fucking hear him cutty shark. And they're like, too bad. We've done. Yeah. We got to get it. And he says, I'm going to take my name off the film. And they're just like wing clear apparently. It's just like, yeah. Okay. Well, you can take your name off the film, but it's going to the lab. Yeah. You know, like, they finally had to like calm him down. And Scorsese is like, I realized I was finally I was near collapse like I basically

had walking pneumonia. It wasn't a drug thing anymore, but the movie like just wiped me out. And it comes out. It's not really a hit, but it is well received. There are some holdouts.

Can be Vincent can be in the times kind of panned it, Pauline Kale. Who's obviously always tough to

what righteousness can you pan? Raging bull. Oh my God. That disgust. But it's you said people didn't

“have a frame of reference for it. It was. Oh, gives a shit. And yes, they did, you know, citizen”

cane, baby. Yeah. There's people didn't get citizen cane at the time. God, I hate. Oh, my God. This is in rage and knowing this. In rage and bull. Uh, he can clearly try to shoot Reagan the day before the Oscars and Oscars get postponed. Well, Scorsese shows up to the Oscars forward this movie surrounded by bodyguards. Yeah. I guess that to everyone, so the security was just insane. He dressed them up and just fancy text he does and acted like they were just his entourage.

But he was worried that he was going to get shot. Right. Thomas could make her wins the only other Oscar for editing and she says like it was Marty's Oscar. I felt like I was winning for the fight sequences and those fight we can sequences were designed by him. You know what I mean? Like as much as I did a good job editing film. Like I felt like I was shot for this trophy. Yes, right. And obviously like Robert Redford wins and ordinary people is an excellent movie and like was kind of an

earthquake. It's like this is the thing I tried to tell people when they're like, I can't believe like Marty Lawson was a much bigger hit. It was a much bigger hit, but it was also just like a new kind of movie in a way. And it's talking about stuff that movies weren't really like starting and talking about yet. It's kind of like upper middle class like psychological crisis and we know how much Oscars just will not respect comedy. Sure. And ordinary people is a flat straight forward drama. Yes.

And this movie is raging bull are the chances of it winning hurt by it being somewhat funny and it's also just a movie that everyone is not sure what to think about. Right. Right. Right. Ordinary people is like a difficult film. It isn't emotionally like challenging film. But it ends with catharsis. It is with the sounds telling them off. And the audience doesn't leave feeling good, but they leave feeling like some progress and knowing what they've been what they've been told to feel in that

feeling. Yes. Yes. No, this is subversive. This is provocative. Yes. I also just want to call out Cathie Morioree already. Most of the reviews are sort of like where the fuck did they find this person. She gets an Oscar nomination. She follows this up with neighbors. The John Avelton, Balushi Akroyd movie. Sure. And then she gets an really bad automobile accident and does an act for like another five years. And it does kind of really throw her career out of whack.

“She had like intensive back surgery, I believe. But also she just said that there was this thing of”

like, everyone discovers her goes like, this is the great new ongenue immediately. Can you lose the accent that there was this real push of like, how do we get rid of the thing that made you

unique in the first place? That's true. She's still working this day. She owns, uh, I don't know if

it's still open, but she owned a very popular pizza. Mulberry Street pizza in Beverly Hills. Yeah. I think four locations. I think they got something California. So that's, you know, like the film, I would say is pretty quickly though. I think highly written. You know what I mean? Like it was the most nominated film that year. Yes. And it's just kind of like maybe the financial thing is not you know, but obviously a movie like this pays longer than this when it becomes such an established

classic and all that. The next one, King comedy, that's the one where I feel like Marty again is starting to sweat and then like the next two movies he makes are both kind of like, well, I got to make something after hours and, and, uh, and he's getting back into a very quality. Yes, uh, and obviously I love both those movies, but like, you know, it's, it's not until last temptation. I feel like that Marty is, again, making like, whatever. I have a more direct vision of his. The box of a

game, this film, Griffin came out, uh, November. We're gonna write, uh, 14th. Okay, 1980, uh, first in New York

city, uh, you know, and limited release, but it is on the top 10 here. Okay, at number 10. It must have opened that like the Zig Felder something. Sure. Crazy person average. Right. It's making 185,000 dollars. Number one of the box office. It's not a film we've covered, but we've covered works, uh, one of the writers on this, we've covered her directorial works. Okay, so is it, it's either a Nancy or it's a Nora? Mm. Is it heartburn? Nope. Is it a Nancy? Yes. I mean, she wrote it.

“Is it private Benjamin? It's private Benjamin. There we go. Mm. You got any private Benjamin thoughts?”

Uh, I haven't seen that movie and I'm very, very, very. I haven't, I haven't seen them within it. It's fun. It's fun. It's very fun. Yeah. I look, what I like about it is that it's like, you know, kind of dark. It's kind of all over the place. Like, it's a wacky movie, but it's like, it's got to, you know, opens with a death. Or miss to it. Yeah. Uh, it's a fascinating film. It was a huge hit. Yeah. Uh, and it got a Nancy. We also got three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's total. Uh, and it's been

office. We just talked about best picture winner in 1980. Ordinary ordinary people. Another big hit.

Uh, so, you know, we're in this like, you know, so far, like we've got a comedy. We've got a drama. This is movies that have stood the test of time. Number three at the box office, which was, I would say a flop. Um, a film from a very, a very good director, a female director, a very few, obviously we're out there back then. Um, but this was kind of her like mainstream swing, and it doesn't work. It's a comedy and a drama. It's, I don't know if you know this movie. I mean,

maybe you do. It's a, it's a female director. It's the female, does it pay a March? No, she wasn't correct. It's not like John McClens silver. It's not, but it's sort of, it's more in that room. It's someone who had made an indie film in 1978 that isn't a wonderful thoughty whale. Oh, you're a whale. Okay. Oh, how are you? Yeah. Uh, and this is a main girlfriend's in 70's. Yeah. This is her, this is her studio film. Yes, from Columbia. Okay. The stars are

Michael Douglas and Jill Clayberg. Ooh, Charles Groden in a supporting role. Oh, what's this movie called? Uh, it's got a little bit of an anonymous title. After this, she only makes TV movies, because like it's kind of like, well, that didn't work in your lady. So it's not starting over. No, it's not seems like old times. I'm throwing out other movies that have posters with two smiling

“actors. It's got a song that sung by Diana Ross and it's named after the song. What's a called?”

It's called. It's my turn. There we go. Um, but it was kind of body by critics. It even rudely got like a golden raspberry num and like the sort of early. Wow, years of that or it was a one strike you're out on her career. Very much. So yes, it's like Joe Clayberg's like a divorce say maybe or she's like a professor. And then she meets this like widow dad who's played by Michael Douglas and they have a, you know, romance. I think, you know, it's pretty low stakes in

a way, but I've never seen a number four at the box office. It's one of your favorite films of

1980. It's one of my favorite films. I think it's your favorite film by this director. We've covered it on the podcast and movie thief. Nope. Nope. That was a good guess. It's all a guess. Yeah. Uh, it's uh, another best picture nominee of the year. Um, and it's another kind of like smaller director making a more mainstream film. Smaller director making more mainstream director. We've covered it on this podcast. It's one of your sets. It's one of one of my favorites. And I rented

“as their top film. You think I think this is your favorite of his films. Well, yes, and he's obviously”

he's a Totemic director. He recently died recently died. Yes. He recently died. He did. Hmm. This half. It's been like recently like last year. Oh, last year. Last year. And he's one of my guys. Oh, no. I would say not as much one of your guys. Maybe more one of my guys than your guys, given that we covered him on the show. I feel like he's more one of my guys. But this is your favorite. The biopic. It's a biopic. Whoa. Yes. Um, it's a story biopic biopic. It's a true story. Yeah,

biopic in 1980. Um, it's not, it's not star 80. No. Uh, Bob Fossy didn't die last year. No. Um, why why am I blinking? I don't know because it's sort of one people forget. It was not me for eight Oscars. Whoa. So tied raging bull for the most names that you're actually who's the star of this picture. It's give it away gone hurt. Oh, it's the elephant man. Oh, it is my favorite. It is my favorite. You're right. Uh,

not me for eight Oscars. I don't want none that way. But it is no, of course it is. And you know,

“it is. Of course it is. Uh, so that's also I think more of a hit. Yeah. Wait. No,”

that wasn't always. Yeah. Number five of the box offices, a film from one of your favorite

directors. Hmm, but I think it is not one of your favorites of his. It's a sort of a more mainstream movie from him. It's not Popeye. No, because I love that movie. It's a movie I love. This is who's maybe your favorite director. Beyond Robert Altman beyond Robert Altman. Beyond Robert Altman. Is it Lumets? No. That's another choice obviously for you. It's not for Hovan. No. This is like an obvious. It's a pretty big guy for you.

You want to do him on the show. I've worried it would be a little Sammy. Um, you've worried it. I think he's a great filmmaker as did Martin Scorsese. You've worried that it would be Sammy. I've wanted to do him. What? Why am I blanking on these today? Give me something as a Gilliam? No. No. What's the genre of this movie? It's a crime thriller. Okay. Yes. It's got a sort of, you know, it's like him doing his version of a

crime movie sort of like a pop music. Oh, the story. John Casabetti's glory. There we go. Which is a film. I just feel, yeah, it's not like you don't like glory. No, I love glory. But I think it's, it's not your favorite of his. It's not my favorite. But it's up there. Okay. I love glory. I mean, it's great movie. Yeah. Rules. Why did I think you didn't like it?

Um, I've never seen love streams. I like love streams. Yeah. I've never seen big trouble.

“I've never seen the last. I've never seen. Right. Otherwise, I think I like them all.”

Do you like Casabetti's? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, yeah. I guess I feel like, I want to say, every time I've watched a Casabetti's film, I feel the, uh, this is weird to say. But I feel the camera in a weird way, that makes some of the camera, uh, announce itself a little bit. Sure. Kind of takes me out. Yeah. Um, but I'm not wrong. The glory is like, you know, him being like, it was him trying to play the studio game. Yeah. Like when I make

you a more kind of straightforward, like movie with a premise that you can kind of sell and and it did fairly well. We're fairly well. And she got an Oscar nominee and she Vulcan Rocks in it. Yeah. Um, but it still has plenty of people screaming while the camera is close to their friends. And so don't you worry. The little boy won the Razzi. I believe, which was really

“rude. This is the, it's the first year of the Razzi. Oh, they're like, do we hate the shining?”

Yeah. You know, and then like later, even the Razzi's are somewhat embarrassed by their first, you know, awards. Um, number six at the box office. So that was the five number six is a fade to black. Okay. Which is a horror like comedy. It's like a weird little in the movie, where a cinephile starts to turn into like famous film characters to kill people. That sounds

clever. I've never seen it. It sounds very cool. Yeah. I've seen it like written up as a sort of like

forgotten, quote, classic. Uh, very popular in France. And that's when you know a movie's normal. Of course. Uh, number seven of the box office is the musical drama The Idol Maker. Oh, yeah. First Taylor Hackford film. Yeah. Speaking of right. Which you were in. I'm a yes, correct. Ray Sharkey. starring Ray Sharkey and Peter Gallagher, which Derek C. in France and Ryan Gosling kept threatening to remake. Somebody stop him. I know. I didn't have anything about it, except that it's

sort of like about a singer like who becomes famous. It's about music by your manager. Right. Right. It's about the one who's the idol maker. I heard a story about a party at Ray Sharkey's house in the early 80s in the Hollywood Hills in which a live pig was slaughtered. Ray Sharkey one of the darkest figures of the post-new Hollywood movement. Yeah. Yes. I believe that story. If you go to Ray Sharkey's Wikipedia page, you'll believe any story about him. Um, number uh, uh, eight of the

box office is the stuntman, the great Peter. Oh, yes. Movie, Richard Garado, film. Yep. Uh, number nine

is a movie I've never heard of called Kill or Be Killed. Okay. Which is always South African Marshall

Arts film. Cool. That was wrote. That was called karate Olympiad, retitled killer Be Killed and released in 1980 in the United States. Wow. Wow. Never heard of it. And number 10 of the box was raging bull. Right. That's where you go. There we go. That's the box office of the era. Very a very interesting package of movies. People had interesting movies to show you in 19. They did things for how do I mean like where are you ordinary people elephant man or all in the top of

your pick? It's a good old. Yeah. It's a cool movie. Yeah. Yeah. So that's raging bull. David, anything uh, you want to plug? Plus, start a podcast plug. I mean plug. It's great. I hate hear myself do this, but I'm in a sports film. It's my first sports film called Mr. relevant. I'm South Christmas Day, a week after Doomsday and Doon 3. Perfect. Perfect time. Lots of people being theaters. Yeah. It's an alternative. Yes. Film to those big giant movies. Go see it. I hear it's lovely. I have

“you have to see it. I hear it's it's it's wonderful. Testing to the roof. Yeah. It's testing through”

the roof. It's testing through the roof. So that's all I got. Uh, that and um, um, I'm playing a grateful dead show tomorrow night. This won't air. No, this won't time. This is going to come out in like months. But I'm going to plug it. It's a pep. No, yes. That it will be months late. You're playing. I'm playing at the Orange Lantern and Paramus New Jersey. Playing grateful dead with with a band called Golden string fiddle. Okay. By the time you hear this, I will have played this show. Okay.

I just want to let people know. I'm doing that. That's what I do with my life. I play it at places called the Orange Lantern and Paramus guitar. No, I play Bungos if you must know. And I see. But I sing the only reason I play Bungos is because all I did was sing. You needed something. I was I was asked to pick up an instrument and the easiest thing was the

a real Bungo boy. Yeah. Thank you for being here. Dude, you guys are awesome. And this one, it really is an honor to be asked to do this particularly. We were floating names. We're floating

ideas and the second year of the name came up. It felt kind of right. I'm just glad like you've never

asked me to do like a Holocaust thing drama or some sort of like Jewish theme thing. No, Talmudic movies. I really appreciate that. Yes. I figured you guys have that covered to some you feel like that's usually what you get asked to do. I just don't know. No, I'm not saying that. I just don't like the idea that I'm the go-to Jew. For that. I have no opinion on those for sure. Yeah. Tuning next week for the King of Comedy. With Thomas Scott. Yes. Yes. Right out of the King of

Comedy, he's right up. Love it. We're getting into it. Is Rupert Pumpkin funny? Sure. Argument is almost. He got close. Over on Patreon a few days ago, we really started episode on the last Waltz. Hey, we did it. We're sorry. It's on Patreon. This is the longest filmography we've ever covered. What are you doing beyond the King of Comedy? You're doing last temptation? We're doing everything.

“You're doing everything. We're doing everything. That's why the last Waltz is on Patreon because”

we're doing everything. If you're doing, what is the one with Brad Pitt? The one Brad Pitt. Yeah. You got to do that one? What's the one with Brad? You said everything. Isn't it with Brad Pitt? I don't think so. You think it departs on India? No. Seven years into bat. You're choosing seven years into bat when Clayton couldn't earn and seven years into bat. Two films that angered the Chinese government that were released by a whole lot of time. The same time.

Similar times. Right around. Yeah. 97.98. You know, I've never seen seven years into bat.

I haven't either. That was a classic where people like, wow, the studios really taking a risk with this and pit's taking a risk. China's condemning the film. And it came out and everyone was like,

“beautiful mountains. The mountains are fucking great. Unbelievable. And how about the film?”

I mean, he climbed over all this mountains like they had nothing to say about. Should we watch it? That's true. I'll check it out. Yeah. Wait, who's the lead in seven years into bat? Brad Pitt? Oh, it is Brad. Yeah. It's just that's not as crazy. No, Chris, he did come done. Seven years of lead of con done. A shy young Chinese man. I mean, like some playing for you. Well, you see why it's an easy that. That's right. All right. Be funny. You've pit was like, I will be playing the dollar.

I want to be a baby question. Pretty bold. Pretty bold. No, he's playing like, uh, you know, right, like it was like he was like a mountaineer. Yeah. Plum devorous. I think he was there for like six years, eight years. Oh, yeah. Thank you all for listening. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being here, Kramay. Thank you for having me. It's a lovely, this is a great, there's a brain trust

“ahead here. That's what we call ourselves. We call ourselves the brain trust. Please remember to”

rate review and subscribe and as always. David. Yes. You fuck my wife. You fuck my wife. Look at me.

Look at me. Look at me. Look at me. Answer my question. You fuck my wife. You fuck my wife. I want to kind of a question. Is that a, I mean, I'm mad. You asked the question. When you get bold, I get it. Like check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin, Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me Ben Hossley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas and our associate producer is

AJ McKeean. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeean and Alan Smithy. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell. Our work by Joe Bowen, Holly Moss and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is mimic. National thinks that David Cho Jordan Fish and Nate Patterson for their production help at over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon,

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