Insider's Italy: Hidden Rome, Best Desserts and Lidia Bastianich Hotline

Genevieve Taylor is coming to Milk Street Radio

to answer your grilling questions.

“If you need new recipes or a bit of inspiration,”

we're here to help. Or you can try to stump me in Genevieve with your toughest grilling mysteries or food fights. Email us at [email protected]. One more time that's [email protected]

and we'll be in touch. This is Milk Street Radio from Pierre Exxon, your host, Christopher Kimble. Every time I traveled to Italy, I get surprised. I found out that Italian cooks throw away their garlic.

They don't stir-plunter. And they occasionally break all the rules of pasta. Today, we're paying tribute to the lessons Milk Street has learned from Italian chefs and home cooks.

Later on the show, I'll be joined by Lydia Boston, Orange.

Well, I'm John O'Neill. Welcome to Milk Street, who's garlic? We'll answer your questions and help one caller figure out how to make 500 Raveoli. Listen, Zach, 500 Raveoli.

That's the line. You can use that machine. Plus, great British bake-off winter, Giuseppe Delano shares the joys of Italian baking. You know, I should be starting writing one of those T-shirts

that I don't know I used to write in the '80s, but she says Italian stew is better. Obviously, I'm referring to baking. But to begin our tour, we'll start in Rome. When I last traveled there for Milk Street,

I was led around the city by a local guide, Ariana Pasquini. She joins me now to discuss the current state of Roman food. Ariana, welcome to Milk Street. Ciao, Chris.

Thank you so much. It's been a while. I was in Rome. You took me around. I would say Rome is a hard city because you're not going to like this comparison.

“But unlike Paris, which I think has got a lot more diversity”

of choices, Rome tends to be a little more monolithic in what you get there. Is that fair? Or would you bristle it that description? OK, I sure disagree with that state, random.

But I will explain you why. So the comparison with Paris was legit. So I didn't get offended. But on the other hand, Rome is not pretty much almost exclusively for a historic center.

We are six million, and the majority of us

don't live in the historic center anymore. So for these reasons, the majority of things that you find in the center are pretty homogeneous, because they are meant to be standardised to the tourism that is coming and expecting something.

But on the other hand, if you really know how to navigate the center, so just avoiding the very tourist spot. There are still some places that develop their own spin-off of variety and fusion of Roman cuisine, and became what I would call the new school

of the Roman cuisine nowadays. Nothing like talking about Rome to Rome. I was right in question. Yes, please. But you describe Roman food as being poor country-side cuisine

of farmers. Nothing prestigious or elegant. Is that a-- those are your words. So I guess you would say that's your description. But I get the sense as a tourist that there's nothing wrong

from a Roman's perspective of serving dishes that have been served for a long time. I get a sense that that connection with the past is fine. It's expected, and there's nothing wrong with that.

“I think that's more true in Rome than many other places.”

Actually, thinking about what you just said is pretty deep total, because we have a relationship with history. So we stick to the past in a positive way in the sense that the expectations are very high. When you serve the food that, as you said before,

you call them myself. But like Roman cuisine was traditionally sort of poor countryside, a few ingredients, quick preparation. But on the other hand, our food is very technical. To make coffee paper, as you know, very well.

It's only two ingredients. Piccadino cheese and black pepper. So to serve it well, it must be very precise. It's a very technical dish. It takes seven minutes.

11, if you overcook the pasta but more than that, and you don't get the chance to correct the dish while you're making it like. If you were doing bolognese sauce with tanks, three hours to be done, you have time to correct

with the ketchup paper you can't. So we have very high expectations, because our food is very technical. But yeah, on the other hand, this like, sometimes you want something new.

Because our cuisine being poor doesn't have such a huge variety,

Yeah, you said something once to me,

which I thought was really interesting.

“Italy wasn't a country until the mid-19th century.”

It was a collection of different regions. And when you talk about diversity and food in Italy, maybe you're thinking more about regional diversity, because the regions were so different. Italian cuisine doesn't exist.

Period. No, I'm joking, but yeah, seriously, it doesn't exist. Because Italy, as a combination with a common language,

in the way we know it nowadays,

is actually a new invention. It exists since it in '61, and in '61 is yesterday. It means that for more than a thousand years, we have been something else. The thing is, when we talk about fusion here,

most of the time, not exclusively, but most of the time we speak about something that is different from what you mean for fusion, overseas and in the rest of Europe too. For the simple reason that we used to be separate states and entities.

So, one very good restaurant in Rome, for example, is Tavernato de Prono. They are known to do traditional Roman cuisine, but actually the chef is from Sardinia, De Island. And you can see the inference there.

He does this creative twist that are unexpected for a Roman.

We would never do just simply because he's from another region,

but it's like really being from another country. So, I get off the plane, and I get into Rome on Saturday morning, and I want to go out to eat lunch or dinner. Let's assume I know nothing about Rome, and you're going to give me some tips about what to avoid.

“What are some of the signs that it's probably a restaurant you don't want to go into?”

Okay, red flags are very clear in Rome. If the staff is outside, asking people to come in and try the restaurant, that's a no-go, even for coffee, even the coffee is a disaster in the kind of places. Then a menu that provides standard pasta, I mean, like pasta with tomato sauce and lasagna from Bologna,

and eggplant parmigiana that is actually from Naples, and carbonara that is from Rome that's an impossible blend. You can mix all of those traditional and do it properly inside that single menu. Then this sort of wax model or fake model of food outside this kind of value of the trappy restaurants that's a no, no, no, no.

Okay, so if I'm not going to go to the outskirts, I'm going to stay in the sort of historic area, what should I look for? Are there good restaurants there in Hadoa, Sustamao? Oh, yeah, absolutely. A place that I truly want. That is not very touristy. People don't know a lot about it. Just one that living in the neighborhood that is called Flaminio is Graminia. So Graminia is this tiny, tiny,

little spot inside the ancient farm market with few open air tables. And they are too soft. They used to work in Misha's restaurants. Now they work in this tiny little spot that is opened five days a week, only for lunch at some times, in summer time for a bit of evil. So there you can find very well done Roman food, but just with creative twist, and it's not pricey at all.

“So, so wait a minute, where you didn't take me there?”

No, well, you're great, that's not, come on, Greece, that was only because it was very far from where we met. Only reason for the eye promise. So the other one that I really like in Trastevere, and this is another one I didn't bring you to. But it was probably close by the time, because they take very long vacation during summer time. If I'm family around business, called Daugusto, and Daugusto is a place that has this sort of menu that follow the

authentic daily Roman diet. Because I don't know if you know that, but for example, in Thursday, we to Noki. You don't eat Noki and Wednesday. No way, no way, now this sounds like, this sounds like you're making this stuff up. Really? No, no, no, no, I can promise you. That's 100% true. I'll ask any Roman in the world. I'm a representative of the Romans in this moment, and I will tell you, Thursday, Noki. So what if you're on the go, and you don't want to sit down for a long

lunch, you want to grab something? Are there places that actually sell pretty good, you know, lunch to go in Rome that you would recommend? Oh yeah, plenty of those. All right, let's start from the products. Then I will tell you the list of names. So there are two products. One is on the sweet side, and one is on the savory side. There are very common both for breakfast or

Tramitzino is a triangle sandwich with a very simple white bread that we call punker rea. There is usually stuff with fresh and made mayo, and some like fresh products sort of tuna and baby artichokes or harpoon eggs, one excellent one. It's actually pretty behind the vatican. There is called Beko. It's a new one. We didn't go together because it's open like six months later, and thank you last game. And, you know, you have an excellent reason why you took me

at the past. None of the places we talked about. It was closed. It was a vacation time. It was too far away. Yeah, I have a lot of explanation. And for Marie Tozzo, they do the classics with one. We're rising peanuts and some citrus zest in it. Stuff with fresh whipped cream without sugar, pretty much everywhere. But my favorite one at the moment is in a pretty iconic place. It's a

“solid cafe that's a good one. So, you look back, you grew up in Rome, I think, right? And so,”

people here always say, here this all time. I spent time in a little from odd town of 900 people.

And in some of my friends, you asked that the way it was, and they're more traffic, and they used to be cows walking down the main street and everything else. And I look at the town and go, you know, it's pretty special, still. So, what do you think about Rome? Do you think like, oh boy, it's really, it's not the way it was when I was growing up. Or do you think that Rome has really managed to keep its character and vibe pretty well over the years? Wow. So,

so, well, we are very opinionated as Italian Saint-Generes. So, right now, I will give my opinion, and say it out loud, okay. Rome has a very strong character, very strong identity, can be unpleasant, can be, you know, very tough and rude. Sometimes even the attitude of people, the way we even drive the car is pretty harsh, you know, but on the other hand, you know, it's the main cities with the biggest population. So, it's sort of has a lot of cities within the city. And for me,

the negative aspect of the changing is the gentrification of the center, because this place is

always been touristy. Given the 1200s in the earth, named the late where the pilgrims were

coming on the via Francescana, but right now, it's more like this over tourism. This huge quantity of people coming all that once in a place that wasn't built for this amount of people, that's the sort of tourist that doesn't have a vision, it's not organized, that is not working. It needs another plan. And this is for the center. For the rest of Rome, I think that is increasingly becoming more and more interesting as a city. And a lot of people is coming to live here. It was

very surprised like a lot of young people that came back after COVID and they're, you know, bringing their knowledge from the outside back in here. And this is a new phenomenon. And I mean, it's very

“very interesting anthropologically speaking to watch. You should run for office. That was a great answer.”

Nicely done. Ariana, I got to come back and you're going to have to take me to all these places.

Consider it done. Yeah, I mean, you know, come on. So, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure

and I really appreciate the tour, thank you. Good afternoon, it's a pleasure. It was all mine. See you soon. That was Ariana Pasquini. She leads food tours and teaches cooking classes in Rome. You can find more of her recommendations at milksetreeradio.com. After the break, Lydia Bostyana, should I answer your most pressing questions about Italian cooking. I'm Shilpa Oskarovic. I'm Jesse Sepjek. And we're the host of the Bonapetit Bake Club podcast. Bake Club is Bonapetit's community of confident

curious bakers. Jesse and I love to bake. Some might even call us obsessive and we love to talk about all the house and why and what didn't work that come with it. Every month, we publish a recipe

“on Bonapetit.com that introduces a baking concept we think you should know. Then you'll bake,”

send us any questions you have and we'll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. So, consider this your official invitation, come join the BA Bake Club, new episodes on the

I'm Christopher Kimble. This is most street radio. Now it's time to answer your Italian cooking

questions with special guest Lydia Bostyana. Lydia is a restaurant tour cookbook author and also host of Lydia's Kitchen on public television. Lydia, it's great having you on the show. Thank you. Oh my pleasure being here. I do have a question for you. You know, years and years ago, I was at Julia's in Cambridge in Boston and I made a mistake of saying something like, you know, you're such a great entertainer on television and she was taken back a little bit

and defended her role as an educator and she didn't really care to be an entertainer. But of course, she was entertaining. If I said the same thing to you because you've been on television for so long and so good at it is entertaining part of what you consider your job description or does that just

“happen naturally? You know, Chris, I think Julia was right. It happens because it happens,”

but the satisfaction, the pleasure of being on television is the actual teaching. Now you see, I'm an immigrant. I came here. I was 12 years old, so I have very much my Italian heritage and then I have my American heritage. I feel very American. So for me, it was unifying, you know, I had the best of two worlds and I kind of thank America by sharing with them what I know and bringing the American audience into my life, into the Italian life, through food. You know, coming here

in the beginning, the American were buying foods prepared, not necessarily, you know, and I was asking myself, do they really like this? Is it really real? You know, they can have a regular chicken and make some good stock or whatever. And so what I noticed along and it's, you know, me and many other of us, you included, that have sort of put out there for Americans to really want to cook. And that gives me great satisfaction that I know that maybe I moved the needles a little bit

“into the getting the Americans back in the kitchen. Yeah, you know, I think you're right. I think”

being a good cook is a big deal for people, right? I mean, it's one of the few things you can do for other people that they can really appreciate. So I think helping someone become a better cook is just very satisfying. I agree. You know, that cooking doesn't have to be all that complicated, something that it is. It is made complicated, maybe by chefs that are inventive chefs and whatever. I'm not an inventive chefs. I am a sort of a conduit of a culture and cooking, the Italian way

it's very simple and straightforward. You get Lydia, I didn't think I could cook, but you know, that wasn't so hard. And I love that because that's the idea. I totally agree. Okay, let's take a call. Bonjourner. Welcome to Milk Street. Who's calling? Hi, this is Mark from Columbus, Ohio, formerly of New York City. Hi, Mark. How are you doing? Hi, Lydia. How are you? How's Chris?

“Oh, he's fine. He's behaving these days. That's what you hear. Tell me, Mark. What is your question?”

Well, my question is just a little background in 1996 for my previous birthday, I ate at the Lydia in New York City. When I told my sister about my wonderful experience there, she said, "Oh, you've eaten Lydia through three years and far as tales at Bonavilla."

Right. And I said, "Oh, my gosh. I didn't know that was her first restaurant."

My question is, what was your favorite dish to make at Bonavilla? Your first restaurant? And what was your favorite dish at the Lydia? You know, Mark, Bonavilla, I opened in 1971. And at that time, the Italian food, the Italian recipes were all the Italian American recipes. So meatballs, chicken parmigiana, chicken scarparillo, and all of those kind of Italian American dishes, which are delicious, and I still love it, make, but some of them are not traditional Italian,

but the one that I loved making there, and people really got into it, was Linguini Clamsos. Oh, my favorite. Oh, okay. You know, it's easy, but in its simplicity, it is hard. And that went like mad over there. It really did. When I sort of sold that, I came to in 1981, Philadelphia, things got more, you know, more products from Italy coming, and risotto was my sort of go-to dish. So much so that, you know, Julia Child and James Beard

came when I first opened, and they wanted to know what this young woman Italian chef is cooking this risotto.

And so those two dishes are my favorite. Can we get that to the Linguini Clamsos one moment?

Well, you know, the bigger the clam, the tougher it is. Let me just go through the whole thing,

“how simple it is. Lots of sliced garlic, olive oil, and I put a lupiperochino in there.”

And then, when the garlic gets golden, I have the pasta cooking. I take one or two ladles of the pasta water and throw it right in the garlic, and it sort of fizzes up and makes a sauce of its own. Lots of parsley. Now as far as the clams, if you like to use whole clams, then the little ones, the little neck are best. You wash them, you scrub them, and you throw them in the pan with the garlic, and then you throw the water in a little bit of white wine,

and you let them open up. If the clams are big, then I like to shock them before, and then

trap them a little bit, and then throw them in again, once the garlic is golden, you throw them in,

and then you make the sauce. If you have difficulties in shocking, actually, clams, you know, you just put them in a pan with a little bit of wine, and you let them open, don't overcook them because they're going to be tough. And then you can pull them out and trap them and put them in there. And that's it, then you sort of pull out your pasta, throw it in the sauce, toss it together, and that's a linguiney clam sauce.

- My mouth is watering. - All right, go and make it. - Mark, thank you very much. - Thank you very much for your questions. - Thank you, take care. - Bye. - Welcome to Milk Street, who's calling? - Hello, my name's Donna Cassesse, and I'm calling from Scowdy and name.

“- Oh, Donna Cassesse, what a nice Italian name. How can we help you?”

- Well, Lydia, my family, said, Italian American, and when I was growing up in the Bronx,

we celebrated the feast of St. Joseph on March 19th, and my great Aunt Grace always made St.

Joseph's pie. It was just delicious. And I don't believe there was ever a recipe, but I remember a mixture of anchovies, onions, black olives, and tomatoes in a pizza dough. It was shaped into a circle then sliced to eat, and our family is originally from Barry Italy, and I'm hoping you can help me recreate the recipe. - Ah, the recipe. Yeah, St. Joseph's big feast, especially in southern Italy. And it is pizza dough.

It's simple pizza dough, Donna. - Okay. - Yeah, you let it rise, and then you treat it almost like a struttle. You know, you make the filling, and you roll it, and then you can make it long, or you can sort of seal it and make it round, and bake it. Now, the inside usually is, like you said, the onions, the black olives, and a little bit tomato, sometimes, and that's sort of smothered, but a little bit authentic, because it's continued to bake, so you don't want it to come into a

mush. You spread it out with your hands, almost like a pizza. You know, you don't not rolling it, just spreading it out, making it a rectangle, put the stuffing, roll it in like a struttle, and then you can seal it at the end, and bake it. It's quite simple, and you know, same Joseph's, the houses open up their doors, and they put tables full of food, and they share it, and it's still being practiced today. So if you go down south, even in Campania, Naples, or Puglia,

and you walk the streets of the town, the doors will be open, and you'll find these tables, and you can just partake and celebrate with them. And of course, every festivity has its food. I love the idea that you have giving me more background on the sea today as well. This sounds

“wonderful. Would you use fresh tomatoes, or would you use canned tomatoes?”

I would use fresh tomatoes in there, you know, in the chunky, because you don't want to overcook the filling. Lydia, I should have a question for you. Would this recipe have used baccala salt cod in the past, or just anchovies? The southern Italy is very rich in sardines and the bluefish. Salted anchovies are beans, it's common, but on the other hand, so it's baccala baccala, you know, salted fish. These are fishes that were sort of kept for lean at times,

you know? So absolutely, whenever they can fit some protein in there, you know, it was either the anchovies, the baccala, and sometimes cooked eggs also. Excellent. Oh, this is wonderful. I really can't wait to share it with my family. You've inspired me to start experimenting. Let us know. Let us know. I will. Thank you. Yeah, pleasure. Bye-bye. My name is Samantha. How can we help you? My mother actually had this question. She's a big fan

of yours, Lydia. My mom is wondering when she cooks with fresh mozzarella, which is more watery.

and she's wondering what would be a way to make that not happen as much. She's absolutely right.

A fresh mozzarella is great to eat directly. You get that milkiness in your mouth,

“and that's what you want from fresh mozzarella. But when you cook with mozzarella, whether you bake,”

whether you make pizza, whether you make pasta, you want the dry mozzarella. The one that usually comes in the pack, that's aged a little bit, it's dehydrated, the flavors are more concentrated, and it melts very nicely and creamy. So tell your mom to buy the dry mozzarella. But just in case, she has fresh mozzarella, and you want to use it, then try to drain it a little bit. You know, maybe put it in a calendar, break it up in pieces, it's slightly pressured and let us stay there

overnight, and it will dry out a little bit. Well, Samantha, I have two quick thoughts. One is when I was in April's years ago at Michael's, the pizza ria, they do three pieces, and they all have fresh buffalo mozzarella on them. And I noticed everybody was eating the pizzas with a knife and fork, and the reason is because the center of the pizzas were soggy. So, you know, nobody cared.

Everyone loved the pizza, so I was the first thing. Secondly, lasagna, when I was in Bologna,

they used beshamela, which is essentially a beshamel, and they used grated parmesan in it, so essentially a cheese sauce. And I made that recipe a number of times. If you're going to make

“lasagna, I think using the beshamela, rather than mozzarella, is really makes them much creamier,”

better lasagna. But Lydia, what do you think? Well, let's go back to Naples. You know, pizza napolitana is a wet pizza. That's the nature of it. They like it like that. The center is wet. So fresh buffalo mozzarella, and all that fits right into that. But if you're baking at home, I want to use mozzarella, the dry mozzarella keeps better. It melts creamier, and it doesn't saga or make the dough wet. Samantha, does that answer your question? Yes, that clarifies a lot.

I'm just such a big fan of you guys. I've been watching you videos since I was a little kid, and I've not gotten to Milk Street because of my mom, so this is really exciting to talk to you guys. Uh, give my best to mom. Take care. Yeah. Ciao, sorry. Lydia, the beshamela, I just thought that was the best lasagna ever had in my life. You know, they don't use mozzarella in bolonia. But Italy, if you go really to the source of the tradition, it's very regional. So what

cheese does that region have? You know, it has lots of cows, big pastures, and Parmigiano, Rijano, Grana, all of those cheeses are what they use. And so yeah, the beshamela ties the whole lasagna together, and then the cheese in between. Sometimes, you know, even ricotta, which you go down south, whether you go to Rome or you go to Naples, they use that in lasagna. In bolonia, they don't. So, you know, Italy, 20 regions, small country, a lot of different opinions.

Well, I just liked it better than Italy, Lasagna. I've had here. I just thought it was creamy and smooth and delicate. But hey, what do I know? But I just, I really liked it. You know, you know, your stuff, Chris. I know my stuff. Okay, next call, I'll take off.

“Welcome to Milk Street, who's going? Hi, this is Zach. How can we help you?”

I have a question about review only, though. My family, every Christmas makes like 500 revenue only. We've been doing it ever since I was a little kid, but the recipe that we've been using is something that we got from like a great, great pot or something like that was written down on paper. And we had no kind of problems with the filling. We love the filling. But whenever we make the

dough, we're never really quite sure what we should be doing with it. I've never seen a recipe

like it before. It calls for water, flour, egg whites and a little bit of olive oil and a little bit of salt. But when I was a little kid, it was like the most difficult thing to roll out. It's like these cups of flour for just three egg whites. And then maybe just shy like two cups of water. So over the years, we've added more water and eggs and stuff to it. But we're just always kind of flying blind. And we're wondering, like, was there something special or magic about that original

recipe that we thought was so hard to work with? Well, I'm going to let Lydia take most of this. She knows more than I do. But when I was in Belonia, I mean, they used egg yolks and flour and it's a very rich dough and the fat and the egg yolk makes it relatively easy to work. But it sounds like the recipe you have. It just sounds way too lean, but Lydia would know the answer, Lydia.

with flour and water only. And you can increase that from flour and egg whites, flour and whole eggs,

flour until the very end, like Chris was saying in Belonia, you have flour and egg yolks. So that's the richest. Each of those differences give you a difference in the texture of pasta, in the flavor of pasta, in how you can work pasta, or how you can roll pasta, how resilient pasta is. So the less egg yolk, the less fat because egg yolks are fat. The more resilient the pasta, more of the protein, egg whites are protein and water. So, you know, it becomes tougher to roll.

So I would go up the scale in your recipe and I would mix some whole eggs a little bit of water

and flour. And of course the flour is important also. Don't get high gluten flour because

high gluten flour is protein, gluten is protein and again, it becomes tough in all of that. But when you make the dough, you gotta give it a chance to rest so that then you can manipulate

“and roll it out well. Does that help you, Zach? Thanks so. The only thing I was going to ask also”

was like, is you're just kind of like a basic starter recipe you would recommend, like if I've got you know one cup of flour, should I be adding like one egg to that cup of flour to start or like two or okay, just like some just kind of like basic parameters to start, what could be great?

Okay, so what I would do for a simple pasta, let's say you use one cup of flour

one egg and a little bit of water, if that egg does not incorporate all of the flour. Now the dough, when you make it, you can make it by hand or you can put it in the processor which is fine. And then the processor, when it's at the right kind of moisture, it should sort of pull off the side and sort of collect around the center blade. That should be okay. If it's a little crumbly or something, it's too dry, just add a little bit of water on top, a little bit at the time.

But try one cup, one egg and use water as a sense of adjustment. I've been using a food processor for years to make pasta dough and it does, as Lydia said, once it comes together in a ball, you have enough liquid. Then I let it rest and then I put it in an atlas crank machine which is 40 bucks or 50 bucks. And so the whole issue of rolling out the dough is moot because the machine will do the rest of the kneading and the machine as you make a thinner and thinner.

I mean, it takes away the charm of rolling out and kneading your own dough, but that's a good cheater way of doing it. Listen, Zach, 500 of Yolese. That's a lot. You can use that machine. Absolutely. Well, we've got a big, huge rolling pin that used to be

“the foot rail and a family member's bar from 100 years ago, so that's what we roll out on the”

Ravioli with. But we do those big sheets like you're talking about. What happens with the rolling machine is that once you set it, all of your Ravioli are the same, the dough is the same density. So hence it cooks the same time and so on. Sometimes rolling by hand depends on where you put the pressure, some parts the dough is a little thicker or some is thinner. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Hey, if I was going to do 500 Ravioli, I'd go out and spend $1200 on a electric machine,

but that would just save up your money because man, that would be useful. So anyway, Zach, good for you. 500 Ravioli. That's great. Keep on making them, Zach, keeps the family together. It's a great tradition. We love it and I got my lot of my cousins have their own kids. So yeah, it's a multi-generational thing for sure. Zach, take care. Thank you. Yeah, thanks a lot. Bye. Bye. Special thanks to Lydia Pastionich. You can learn more about her TV shows, cookbooks and

line of pasta sauces at Lydia's Italy.com. You're listening to Millestream Radio after the break, the best of Italian baking. I'm Christopher Kimball and this is Millestream Radio. After almost 10 years at Millestream. J.M. Harsh and I have visited nearly every corner in Island of Italy. J.M. joins me now to talk about some of the research trips he's taken

“for a latest book, Millestream Backroads, Italy. J.M. How are you? I'm doing great. I think Italy”

from all the places we travel to is absolutely unique because it really wasn't a country to the 1860s is Ariana told me in my interview with her earlier this show. And so diversity for them

and different ingredients. So you get highly localized recipes because Italy's still kind of a

collection of different regions, right? It really is. You never want to accuse a Sicilian of being

“Italian, but that's what makes it charming. They still make a lot of the recipes and it's highly”

regional. Yeah, you know what's amazing is Italian food is so ingrained in the American culinary heritage that we think we know what it is. But then you go to Italy and you encounter people and recipes that you just never thought possible. You know, get away from Central Piazza and walk down the back alleys and you are going to find something amazing and delicious and just wonderful people behind it. Hands down my absolute favorite restaurant in all of Italy. Maybe all of the

world is Latvernate Vittosi and it's run by five sisters, their parents and their grandmother,

you know, the menu is handwritten and photocopied every day. And one of the sisters delts out opera in the middle of the dining room and their food is just killer. I mean, it's the sort of thing that, you know, it's just we have a habit of over romanticizing Italy, but you know what? It deserves it.

“Well, it's real deal if you know where to go. I mean, I think if you go to the touristy areas of Rome,”

yeah, you're going to get bad pizza and bad gelato and, you know, bad focaccia, probably, but if you go to the right places, that's just a whole different world. So what are a few of the recipes that you really like from these travels? Yeah, well, certainly, if you're going to stick with the Vittosi sisters and you really should, their meatballs are amazing. They're like the size of a bowling ball practically and they have an incredibly high ratio of bread, which,

you know, undoubtedly was born out of Katrina Povert, just, you know, stretched their meat,

but the result is incredibly light and tender meatballs. I've never had a meatballs, so tender,

so light and so delicious. So that is a must. But if you go further south in Italy to Pulea, which is the, you know, the heel of the boot, a little town, buttery, is home to what is considered the best focaccia and all of Italy. And I'll tell you, it earned that title. The bottom is cracklingly crisp because it's cooked in just a ton of olive oil, but the top is chewy airy tender and wonderful because it's an incredibly high hydration dough and it's allowed to overproof

for hours and hours. So it rises, it falls, it rises again, it falls again and it is just incredibly top it with tomatoes and green olives and that recipe is so good. I don't allow myself to make it anymore because I would literally sit down and eat the entire pan. I can't trust myself around it. That doesn't sound like a problem to me to a point, I don't know. And you know, this is a classic, but I'm going to have to say Pesto Genovese. I mean, we all know Basel Pesto, right? But in Italy,

it's otherworldly. You know, it's, it's nothing like what we have here and it's all in the way they make it as we learned. When you do it right, boy, it is miles above anything that we'd ever made

“and it's, it's so good. Well, I, I think now that we've done this book backroads Italy,”

we need backroads Italy too. I agree. I mean, I've all the places to travel. I know it sounds corny, but it just is, there's so much to learn, it's so satisfying. Yeah. We could do this for the rest of our lives. Sounds good to me. Yeah. Jam, thank you. Thank you. We'll end this segment with a little clip of Anna Vittosi singing opera in her restaurant. You can find some of our favorite recipes from all across Italy at millstreetradio.com/Italy,

including Neapolitan meatballs and no fry eggplant, Parmesan from the Vittosi sisters. [Music] We'll end our tour of Italy today with dessert. Our final guest is Giuseppe Delano, the 20 21 winner of the Great British Bake-Off. On the show, he was known for his bake inspired by his childhood in Gaiaiata. Since winning the show, he's published two books,

Giuseppe's Italian bake and Giuseppe's Easy Bakes. Giuseppe, welcome to Milk Street.

I just, I found these recipes. I mean, the thing I love about your two books is

“I found things in there that I've never heard of before. And so, it's sort of like,”

someone opened this door in this large house into a room I've never walked into. So,

sunk in Riccada cake before you put it in the oven, you pipe cream on top and it's exact pattern and it's sort of sinks into the cake as it bakes. Which I just thought was brilliant. I mean, that's, that's just a great thing could you talk about that. Yeah, well, you're stroking my ego there because, but that's recipes, probably one of the very few ones that I have made up myself and it's a creature of my

creativity. I was trying to transfer the flavour combination that Sicilian canolies have made famous all over the world into a form that it's easier to make and you can get on the table

or in the oven in about 20 minutes. And I had the idea to do that after a visit to Syracuse

“and Sicily where I was served. I think one of the most delicious gelatos in my life. It was a nice”

cream made with ricotta, a lot of orange peel, orange blossom water. So, all the flavours that make the canolies feeling and I thought well, if they can turn it into a nice cream, I can certainly turn it into a cake. And it's probably one of the very few in there that doesn't come from the pile of handwritten notes that my dad left me and my extended family keeps circulating between ourselves. It's just the fruit of my creativity. So, I'm very glad that you like that one.

What about Somalina flour? So, it's made from Durham wheat. It's a little pebbley and coarse. It's

hard. Is it something you add with regular flour or do you make, have you make some

dessert recipes entirely with Somalina? When would you use it? So, Somalina is one of those

“ingredients like ricotta, for example, that is very, it's not very glamorous. It feels very common”

and very popular. But because of this, it's also very versatile. Somalina fights its way into desserts, typically originally from the area in Campania. So, that central southern Italy where they are used a lot in one of the quintessentially napolitan pastries, as well as probably one of my favorite pastries ever, which is called Sfoil Detella, which is made with a crumbly flaky layered shell filled with this creamy filling that is made with Somalina cooked in hot milk or hot water,

and to which you have added ricotta, candied orange peel and orange blossom water, as a flavoring. And a pinch of salt and lots of sugar and cinnamon. It smells heavenly. But you can also use Somalina for several dishes. In Rome, they make some what they call "nyaki" and they are made entirely with Somalina, salt and milk. It goes into a baking tray with loads of vegetable sauce, you know, an obscene amount of parmesan. And it's utterly, utterly delicious.

You said best you know, which brings up this old French Italian rivalry. So, and I just love to talk about this. So, I mean, the Italians would say the invented puff pastry or the Southern thing. Where do you stand on who invented what? Oh my god, Chris. I mean, this is one of those arguments that nobody will ever be able to resolve. But I love the fact that there is this sort of rivalry or though in my head, there is no doubt that Italians do it better than

French do. Of course, you know, I should be starting wearing one of those t-shirts. I don't know, I used to wear in the 80s, where she says Italians do it better, obviously I'm referring to baking only. But I don't think it better. We're all just different the clinician of the same base recipe. It could be that it was developed in different places at the same time independently, who knows. So, let's talk about cinnamon. I'm famous for yelling at people about putting too much cinnamon in

their apple pie. Because I just think cinnamon, I'm sorry, cinnamon's great, but it's like the strongest, it's one of the strongest spices out there. And people just use too much to just overwhelms everything. So, I'm looking for an ally here, or maybe I'm going to get a fight. But, I mean, cinnamon in the United States is just in everything. Like, for people want to sell their house, they put cinnamon on a baking tray in the oven, so the house, we do it with coffee in Italy.

We put coffee on the stove. There we go. So, I mean, is cinnamon something you should be wary of

Honestly, if you're feeling down, open the jar of cinnamon, sniff it, and it'll be much more effective

“than a strip of cocaine. Honestly. And then it can be much cheaper, but really, really good. I love it.”

I love the stuff. No, I'm sorry. The more the better, I do agree with you that it can be overwhelming a time and it does taste a little bitter if you go overboard. But in an apple pie, come on, apple and cinnamon is a marriage made in heaven. No, no. It's the taste of the apples that's important in the apple pie, but anyway. Okay. Supermarket apples have no flavor anymore, so I can see dump cinnamon in it. You know, that is, you just put your finger there, Chris, on the most

critical aspect of all of these. I mean, the thing that I like a lot about Italian cuisine,

and that I try to export as much as possible, is the fact that the ingredients list is usually very short. Okay. If you think of like Pandispania, which is the basic sponge that goes in pretty much every single cake, made in Italy for birthdays, weddings, everything, is made with three ingredients.

“Eggs, sugar and flour, but the crucial aspect of this is that when you've got ingredients listed”

as so short, the quality of those ingredients makes a massive, massive difference. You know, one last thing to call my eye was Pisto. You describe it as a series of spices used in baking, peppercorns, cloves, coriander and us. Now, there's so many spice blends around the world, especially in the Middle East, where every family has their own mixture, but you know, the generally savory. So I really like the idea of having a spice mix that's specifically

for baking. Pisto is very, very similar. I mean, there is no single recipe. For example, the addition of black pepper is something specific to my own hometown, something that my dad is to do very often, and I love it because it gives a bit of a hot, after taste, to whatever you're having, and considering that this is a spice mix that is typically used for the festive season. You know, to me, it's what Christmas tastes like. The beauty of that is that every time I open

that jar with Pisto in it, you know, it brings back so many childhood memories that I wouldn't dare changing it because I want it to be that way. I want to bake with those spices for Christmas because I want my house to smell the same way. It is to smell when I was a kid. On the other hand, I've got this smell of orange blossom water, which is the mix that is typically used for making pastiera, which is an Easter cake. And in my head, that is what springtimes melt like. And it's

fair to say that the main reason why I started baking in the first place, it was because I wanted

to spoil my kids the same way I was spoiled as a child, and I wanted them to have the same, you know, sweet memories and association of fragrances and flavor. One of the things that made me happiest, laterally, was that I was, I was cooking at home, and I was making some pasta with beans and celery, some vegetable stuff. And my eldest comes in the kitchen and he goes, "Oh my god, this smells delicious, papa, what are you making?" It smells like Italy. And that made me so happy.

I was there you go. I've achieved something. Just happy and spend a lot of fun. Thank you so much. My pleasure. Thank you for having me, Kris. It's been a pleasure talking to you. That was Giuseppe Delano, author of Giuseppe's Italian Bakes and Giuseppe's Easy Bakes. Italy is full of myths. The founders of Rome, Romulus, and Remus were raised by She Wolf. Sicilian Ferries have said to be beautiful women with feet, shaped like cats or horses,

and finally Italian food is mostly pasta and pizza. The myth of Italian cuisine is that it

actually exists. Dinner in Calabria doesn't resemble supper inumbria or lunch in Naples.

“That's why so many of us love Italian food, it's still a mystery.”

That's it for today. To hear all of our episodes head to MelstreakRadio.com, or wherever you get your podcasts. To explore Melstreak and everything we have to offer, go to 177 Melstreak.com. There you can become a member and get full access to every recipe. You can also learn about our latest book, "Melstreak backwards Italy," which is out right now. Find us on Facebook or Christopher Kimmel's Milk Street on Instagram at 177 Melstreak.

Christopher Kimmel's Milk Street Radio is produced by Milk Street in association with GBH.

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senior producer Sarah Klack, associate producer Caroline Davis with production help from Debbie Paddock,

additional editing by Sydney Lewis, audio mixing by Jay Allison and the Lantic Public Media in Woods Hole,

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