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They know homes. How are you the right pro today? Megan Rapino here. This week on Why Are You Like This, I am talking with Roxanne Gay. That's right.

Roxanne Gay. Roxanne is a fearless writer and cultural critic whose impact goes away beyond her New York Times bestselling books. We dig into all the big moments of her life, and of course, she shares if she's more mommy, daddy, or baby.

Check out the latest episode of Why Are You Like This, wherever you get your podcasts, and on YouTube. Hi, it's Phoebe. This fall, I'm going on the road with a big experiment. It's a brand new live show all about me and my family and secrets.

It's totally different from anything we've done before. We're going to announce the full run of TorDate soon, but first, we've got a couple of special shows coming up in just a few weeks. I'll be in Durham on September 16th at the first place we ever did a live show, Motorco, and in Portland, Maine on September 18th.

We've never done a show in Maine.

You can find out more at this iscriminal.com/live. I hope to see you very soon. Penny was working at her parent's funeral home. She was divorced, she had two kids, and her dream of making it big and Hollywood had not happened, and she was working in basically rural Texas at a funeral home.

“I think she'd given up on finding love again.”

And a man named Paul Scaleneck came into the funeral home one day for a funeral, and he was just this incredibly dashing guy. Colonel is an author, Pamela Cole-off. He was not classically handsome, but he was attractive. He wore beautiful three-piece suits.

He wore jewelry. He was incredibly charismatic and really sort of swept her off her feet. In the spring of 1977, when they met, Paul Scaleneck was 27, six years younger than Penny Rogers. He is sending her flowers and giving her jewelry.

He tells her that he is an executive, a very high-up executive at Southwest Airlines. And at the time Southwest Airlines was like the cool airline, the stewardess, has had go-go boots. And it was a place of young energy, and he sort of embodied that it wasn't too long.

“I think we were talking just at most two months before they went to Las Vegas and got married.”

Paul moved into Penny's condo with her and her two children. Every morning, he would grab his briefcase, kiss Penny, and tell her he was heading out for work at Southwest Airlines headquarters in Dallas. He goes and he flies up there every morning, has his important meetings and flies back,

and at the end of the day, he always comes walking down the walkways, sort of loosening his

tie and comes in and makes himself a drink. So he has this life of an executive. And on the weekends, he takes Penny and the kids on these lavish trips. They don't travel far, they're just going to Dallas and Austin, but they're staying at the finest hotels and he's ordering champagne and chocolate covered strawberries up to

the room, and he just seems to have the promise I think of a better and more exciting life. But Penny is daughter Lisa, who is about 14 at the time, started noticing little things that she thought were odd. Paul would steal the robes from the fancy hotels where they stayed. And every time he drank crown royal, which he often did, he saved the purple velvet

bag. It came in. And probably most importantly, he keeps a handgun on him at all times.

Now it's not unusual in Texas, especially in the 70s, to have a gun, but he always

has it with him, like even when they're driving, he's stashing it under his seat.

And then, in the spring of 1978, about a year after he and Penny had gotten together,

he didn't come home for a month. That may an investigator in the Harris County DA's office in Houston, a man named Kenny Rogers, got a call. And the voice on the other end of the line is Paul Scalnic, and Paul was somebody he had gone to military school with, sort of, a junior college in New Mexico, about 10 years prior.

And Scalnic says to him, "Canny, hey, you know, it's me. I'm in jail, and I'm wondering if you can come get me. This is very surprising news, and Scalnic says to him, "I've got some information in a

“case that I think you'll be really interested in."”

I'm Phoebe Judge, this is criminal. Kenny Rogers hadn't seen Paul Scalnic in years, but the last time they had spoken, Paul was a police officer in Austin. I think because he had been a police officer just a few years ago, and because they had gone to school together, there was just this implicit trust that there must be some misunderstanding,

and he just had to go to the jail and get this figured out. Why was Paul Scalnic in jail? So Paul Scalnic was in jail because he had a habit of writing hot checks. He had started off as an Austin police officer in the early '70s, and he started writing

hot checks for these small amounts, and he was never prosecuted for this.

He was just sort of quietly shown the door.

“And after that, that's how he made his living in the '70s.”

And it started off small, be like a $50 check at the grocery store that was bad. And it escalated from there. He'd never been an executive at Southwest Airlines. At one point before he met Penny, he spent time in Florida, where he said he was a salesman for a Scandinavian furniture company, and took pre-orders for expensive furniture that didn't

exist. He was arrested for that, but only got probation. After he met Penny in Texas, he kept passing bad checks. One of them was for a microwave he'd bought Penny for Christmas. So these financial crimes had caught up to him, and he was in the Harris County jail

for those.

“And that's when he called his old friend Kenny Rogers at the DA's office and told him”

he needed to come and get him, that he had some information that Kenny would be interested in. It involved a case that had taken place a year earlier. On May 5, 1977, Houston police had responded to a call from a bar manager, about a man named Jose Compostorrez.

He'd been drinking most of the day, and had gotten into a fight after refusing to leave. After the officers picked him up, they drove him to an isolated part of the bayou, known as the whole. In rookie officer, later reported, seeing other officers beat Jose, and then seeing one of them push Jose into the bayou, saying, "Let's see if this wet back can swim."

Jose Compostorrez was found dead three days later by a tourboat operator. The case was all over the news.

And there was an incredible uproar of course about this.

There was even more of an uproar when the officers who did this really weren't punished. Some really got slaps on the wrist. So when Cinco de Mayo arrives the following year in 1978, there is a, what turns out to be a riot at what begins as a very peaceful gathering. Just to celebrate Cinco de Mayo, where people are chanting Jose Compostorrez's name,

and they're asking for justice for him. And in the course of that, there's property damage and some people are hurt. There are many people arrested, and this is a big embarrassment to the city. And the city leaders, and Houston police, end up pinning all of this on three sort of shaggy-haired activists, and instead of acknowledging that this uprising came out of

They blamed it on these three, quote unquote, "outside agitators."

“They became known as the moody park three.”

And so they were put on trial in 1978. There's no evidence that credibly shows that they convinced hundreds to riot and to cause property damage. And the DA's office is under a lot of pressure to get a conviction. And it just so happens that Paul Schelnek was in the county jail at that time.

Any Rogers rushed to the jail, signed Paul out, and took him to the special crimes bureau to talk.

Paul told him that he'd managed to get one of the members of the moody park three, a man named

Thomas Hershey, to start talking to him. And when prosecutors heard what Schelnek had to say, they were very intrigued and wanted to work with him. Many in Paul developed a routine, most days can he would head to the jail, take Paul out of protective custody, and drive him to the special crimes bureau in an unmarked car.

And their schelnek would sit there and he had all the wonderful things that you don't get, normally when you're being held in jail, he had ice cold air conditioning during

the summer, he had fresh coffee, he had some privacy in the bathroom, so he already

was getting some perks, prosecutor spoke to him, and he told the story that not only had Tom Hershey supposedly confessed to him, this is something that Tom Hershey would later vigorously deny, but that Tom Hershey and his compatriots had thought this out long ahead of time, that

“this was a pre-meditated act, and that was a really, really important detail, because”

for inciting a riot, at that time at least in Texas statute, you had to have that pre-meditative element, and he supplied that. Paul's going to get anything from the prosecutors any type of deal, he did, so he was released, number no conditions to that, and he was just supposed to keep in touch with Kenny Rogers, until he had to deliver his testimony at the moody park three trial.

The trial began in the spring of 1979, and the prosecutor's case wasn't looking good. Some of the details went off as are described in court, were included in his written report about the riot. It also came out that at the same time that some witnesses had said they'd seen the moody park three in the park, other witnesses had seen the Metabarbacue. And then Paul Scalnik took the sand.

The testimony was pretty detailed, and it told this whole narrative about how the moody park three had set out to do this, the ways in which they had convinced young people to carry out this riot, how they had brought weapons with them. They brought alcohol with them, according to this story, to be clear there is zero evidence that corroborates any of this, but he said this on the stand.

And I remember when I interviewed Tom Hershey, he described sitting at the defense table

“and his life is on the line. They're facing 20 years in prison and felony charges.”

And he said, "You know, I knew that cops sometimes lie on the stand. I knew that our court system wasn't perfect, but watching how easy it was for him to lie was something I'll never forget." Thomas Hershey was found guilty, along with the other two members of the moody park three. After his testimony, Paul Scalnik was allowed to continue living outside of jail.

Kenny Rogers was meant to keep an eye on him. Kenny Rogers had this very, very simple beach house on the coast, and he wasn't there a lot, because he was a workaholic. So Scalnik, this is a very unusual arrangement obviously, he's sort of the caretaker. He's fixing things around the house and kind of watching after it while Kenny isn't there, and Kenny Rogers thinks, "This is a pretty good setup. I know

where my witness is, and I'm getting something out of it and return, he was paying him as well." And again, very unconventional, but that's what they did.

And he notices that the house is very lived in, and that things are skew and just things

“are a mess. He realizes that Scalnik has been doing more than just being a handyman and”

a caretaker, but has really set up camp in his home, and has not been taking good care of it. So he tries to get in touch with Paul Scalnik and finds that he can't figure out where Scalnik is. And this is obviously very upsetting. He leaves an angry note on the refrigerator, and he goes back to Houston. When he goes back to Houston, he gets a phone call from a man who lives in Houston, who tells Kenny Rogers that Scalnik had made some charges on his credit

card when Scalnik stayed with him during the Moody Park 3 trial. And at this point, Kenny Rogers

realizes that his star witness has committed a crime while he was being a state witness in the Moody Park 3 case. And so he calls the sheriff in the area where his beach house

“says, and he says, "You need to go to my house, and you need to see if this man is there,”

and if he's there, you need to arrest him." And when he went to the Madagordic County jail, this was where his beach house was to pick up Scalnik, who'd been picked up by the Sheriff's Department. He was astonished to find that Scalnik was wearing all of Kenny's

clothes, and he was holding a paper back of Kenny Rogers' that he was reading. And he sort

of looked at Rogers and said, "What's the problem, Kenny?" You know? And Kenny at that point is furious, and feels that, "Gosh, I gave this guy like every chance, and he took advantage of this, and my patience is up." After a 60-day sentence, Paul Scalnik was extradited to Florida for violating the terms of his probation there after he had been caught posing as a salesman for Scandinavian furniture.

He was released after just a few months, and didn't leave affording a dress. His wife, Penny Rogers, who'd been corresponding with him while he was in jail in Houston, couldn't find him. When she decided to file for divorce, she had to place a notice in the newspaper to let him know. About a year later, Paul was married again, and in jail again, for scamming a woman he'd been having an affair with.

And so he's sitting there in the jail. It's really, really hot. It's the summer. There's no air conditioning. And one day he goes to the spank of phones, and he makes a call to the state attorney's office, and he says, "I've got some information on some cases here that

“I think you'll be interested in." And prosecutors go and meet with him, and he begins”

feeding them the details of some kind of low-level drug crime cases. These are various men who are in the jail who are waiting trial, and there's not quite enough to get a conviction, but he fills in the blanks. He sort of gives them what they need to get a conviction. Did anyone think, "Well, this timing is a little suspicious." You know, it was so much a part of the culture of the Penelis County jail in Clearwater where this all took place.

This was a fairly common occurrence at the time, and detectives had the run of the jail. They could come in as they pleased to interview anyone who is being held in the jail, and these are all people who are being held for the most part pre-trial. There's the presumption of innocence. They're awaiting trials, different than prison. And they could come in, and they would do this where they would come in and ask people who are facing very long sentences,

"Hey, you know, what did your soul mate tell you?" And there was the implicit understanding. It wasn't overt most of the time, but there was the implicit understanding that if these men halved prosecutors make their case, that there would be some kind of reward at the end.

to prosecutors, he was only given probation.

“And then, less than five months after he had been released, Paul was arrested again for theft.”

Less than a week after his arrest, a 12-year-old named Karen Parker went to the Penelis County Sheriff's Office with her parents, and made a report that Paul Scalnik had sexually assaulted her. When 12-year-old Karen Parker reported her sexual assault, she was given a polygraph exam to see if she was telling the truth. This was when we back then, people believed that polygraph exams were indicative of that. We now know they're far more problematic.

So Karen Parker, a 12-year-old girl, is given a polygraph exam, Paul Scalnik, never is.

Karen Parker passed the polygraph. There were also two eyewitnesses who said they'd seen glimpses of the assault. Paul Scalnik was charged with looting the serious conduct

“on a child under 14, a felony with a possible sentence of 15 years in prison.”

Well, this comes at a really inconvenient time because he is promised to testify in more cases, and they've seen how effective he is on the stand. And at that point, when he would get on the stand, all he had to say was that, "I was a former police officer, law enforcement is in my blood, and I got in a little bit of financial trouble, but I'm a good guy." That really changes if he had to say that he had molested a child.

The State Attorney's Office dismissed the charges. They never prosecute him, and Karen Parker

is made to feel that no one believes her, and in fact, the ripple effect this has, even within her own family when this happens, is that she's not believed she's seen as a

“troublemaker, and she ends up running away from home and told me she didn't trust anyone”

for a long, long time. Paul pleaded no contest to the theft charges, and prosecutors gave him a deal. Instead of the potential 15 years, he could serve for the charges he would only receive five, and credit for time served. Prosecutors requested that he remain in jail, rather than go to prison, while he served his sentence. They said that if he were sent to prison, he could be in danger, because

they were men there that he'd helped to convict with his testimonies. They prosecutors know that if Schaunek is sent to prison, if he's convicted and sent to prison as most of the people around him will be, he's not valuable to them anymore. People who are in prison have already been convicted. In the jail, he's with men who are awaiting trial. He's there as someone who can endlessly help police and prosecutors put

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month. By the summer of 1983, word had gotten around in the Pinellas County Jail that Paul Scalnic was an informant. Because of that, there were concerns for his safety, and he was moved to a cell block that was separated from the general population. It was for defendants with high profile cases. Not long after he'd been moved there, he let prosecutors know

that a man on his cell block named Freddie Gaines had confessed to him.

So Freddie Gaines was a young man, a lightweight boxer, who was working as a handyman

in the early 1980s. He ends up getting in a bar fight. And there are many, many witnesses to this, what ended up happening in the bar that night. But he gets into this bar brawl with this other man. And at the end of that fight, one man is dead and one man is alive. Freddie is alive the other man is dead. And there's this sort of roshaman effect of what all

“the witnesses who saw this remember about who brought the knife, who first used the knife,”

who did what? And there's no agreement on what happened. We just know that this man was killed. So Freddie goes to stand trial, and he could have faced something like 15 years for a crime. As terrible as it is, of course, someone lost their life. But this was quite obviously a spontaneous event that happened. Paul Skellonett gets on the stand and he claims that Freddie gains planned this whole thing out, which on its face is curious. He would think

if you're going to have a premeditated murder, you wouldn't do it in front of all these witnesses. But anyway, he says this was a premeditated crime. And then he goes on to give that detail, that kind of detail that's going to really stick with jurors. He said that Freddie boasted about killing this man, and he not only boasted about killing him, he boasted about the way that he did it. The victim had been stabbed in the heart. And Paul Skellonett testified that

Freddie had said that he should have been charged with, quote, open heart surgery. Sort of with a laugh. This very cold blooded kind of thing. And that testimony helped not just to convict Freddie and he was guilty, of course, of killing this man, but to get this extremely punishing sentence. So Freddie received a life sentence and is in prison to this day. One of the things that makes no sense about how he could have obtained these confessions isn't just

how difficult it would have been physically within the jail to get them. But why? I mean,

“if your life is on the line, and you are three weeks out from a trial, why would you tell”

anyone, you know, anyone in your life, much less a perfect stranger that yes, you did this, and here are the details. And by 1983, everybody knows he's a snitch. This is no secret. One man even told a guard, he would not be in the same cell as Paul, quote, because I knew who he was and what he did. You know, a question many people have asked me is how did he survive all this? You know, there's this saying, snitches get stitches, right? And he emerged unscathed.

Well, the reason for that is because he was being held in protective custody, meaning that he couldn't just mix with the other guys. If he wanted to go to the prison yard,

asking people to believe that he was walking past the cells of strangers or sometimes he said they would seek him out because they thought he was so knowledgeable. And here they are about to face trial and that they would confess everything to him and things that were

“self-incriminating. I think it can be hard for people to understand why a jury would believe these”

stories and something that's important to remember is that when a prosecutor put someone like Paul Scaleneck on the stand, they are appearing in a line of highly credible witnesses. You know, the first witness in a murder trial might be the lead investigator who showed up to the scene of the crime. Second witness might be the paramedic who can describe what happened or the medical examiner. Someone like Paul Scaleneck appears within that context and he is sponsored by

prosecutors. He is someone who prosecutors are saying that jurors can trust.

When he was asked on the stand, while he had chosen to testify, he would always say the same thing.

He talks about how proud he was to be a police officer and how he never really left that life behind. He's made some mistakes, but he still has law enforcement in his blood, is how he puts it and that the least he can do to redeem himself for these minor financial crimes that he committed when he was desperate for money is to be one of the good guys and to help police and prosecutors. And he does a lot to distance himself from the other sort of what he sees

as the riff-fraff in the jail. He's not like them. He's a former cop. He's different. You just want someone to step in here and say, "Wait, wait, wait. What is happening with this guy?" You know, just someone in some sense that there's something's going on here.

“I think that's the most shocking thing to me here is no one ever steps in to say hold on a second.”

This doesn't make sense. This is something where, you know, really, like, ethically, we need to think about this. And I think it goes to these incentives that the system puts out there. The prosecutors incentives, unfortunately, in this office at that time with the culture, the tough-on-crime culture of the era, it was to get convictions, something that a prosecutor said to me, which all paraphrase, was, "You've got to work with a

sinner to catch the devil." I can't think of the top of my head of a case in which he brought fourth evidence that prosecutors or investigators had come on Paul, that seems a little far-fetched.

“And, you know, you have to imagine, here's a guy in the jail who's got a better track record”

than their star detectives in their county. And they, they never question this. They just,

they keep sponsoring his testimony. By 1984, he had testified against or given information about at least 27 men in Penelis County, jail, and three of them were on death row. That year, the same Peter'sburg Times published an article about the dramatic rise in death sentences in the county. One lawyer was quoted saying, "They're going to have to build a separate win on death row for Penelis County." I mean, if you were a defense attorney and you had

done your research, they've got this guy, he, he does this all the time. I'm going to talk about that.

You know, was anyone saying on the other side? Wait a second, this doesn't make any sense.

So, here's where it's so hard with jailhouse informants. There was no easy way think about, especially in a time period when court records are not digitized, right, where you're just going through page by page by page, the complexity of trying to figure out how many other cases this guy has testified in. It was extremely difficult. The state attorneys office knew they had a running list of every case he'd ever given information in. But for defense attorneys who are, you know,

so short on time, short on money, often we're talking public defenders who have a few hours

task, and when a defense attorney asks someone like Paul Scalnik, were you promised anything

“in return for this testimony? He can truthfully say no, so that's something that jurors can go on to”

believe, because nothing's been promised yet. Nothing's been promised. It's an implicit understanding on the part of the prisoner that if they help out, they'll get something back. What was his reward for all of this testimony? This next batch of testimony. He was released again, incredibly. One of the things I found so shocking was whenever he was released, you know, he would have court dates where he was supposed to check in with the court, because he usually had

either an upcoming trial of his own or a trial in which he was testifying in, and he would never

show up to these hearings. There was just this bizarre way in which prosecutors endlessly trusted that he would do what they had asked him to do. I can get in trouble, because I can figure,

“let's get a couple of confessions, and I'll get myself right back out of jail if I get caught again.”

Right, right. That's exactly right. He was arrested again, less than two years after he was released, for a few different financial crimes. Once he was in jail, Paul Scalnic, let an investigator he'd worked with before, John Halliday, know that even though he was in an isolation cell, all alone, three men had found a way to tell him about the murders they'd committed. Prosecutors plan to use Paul's testimony in their trials, but this time he wasn't released

early. He would have to stay in jail to wait for his own trial. Paul did whatever he could to get out. He wrote to the judge in his case. He drafted a legal petition saying he was unlawfully detained. He even wrote to the governor,

“copying Ted Kennedy, not if it worked. But then, a man named Jim Daley was moved to Paul's floor.”

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He had started college. He, in 1968, went to Vietnam. He goes on to become an alcoholic and lives

“quite a difficult somewhat itinerant life. He falls in with a guy named Jack Pursey.”

Jack Pursey, unlike James Daley, had a very long rap sheet and history of violence against women. He had also been involved in a murder for higher case in Missouri a few years earlier. So these guys and their friend end up moving to Penelis County, this place where you can kind of reinvent

yourself. The sun is always shining. The living is cheap. Not long after they arrive in Penelis County,

a 14-year-old girl named Shelley Bosio ends up dead in Indian Rock's Beach, Florida in this area. She is found naked in the water. She's been stabbed over 30 times. Her body's been brutalized. The assumption is she's been sexually assaulted and it's a horrific crime. The investigation very quickly narrows in on Jack Pursey, who is the last person to be seen with her alive. The night she was killed. He had been pursuing her romantically. He was 29 years old. She was 14.

And he had blood on his shoes that night. There were just all sorts of indications that Jack was the prime suspect in this case. Police track him down to Kansas where he fled after Shelley's murder. They bring him in for questioning. He tells a story about how he brought Shelley Bosio down to this lover's lane in Penelis County this night that she was killed. And he also happened to bring his housemate, Jim, James Daily, and that he, Jack Pursey,

stayed back in the car while Jim went off with Shelley and tried to have sex with her. There was a struggle and Jim stabbed her and killed her. So there's no evidence whatsoever to back this up.

This is really the word of the prime suspect of the case is putting this on Jim, but never the

last, these two men are arrested and charged with capital murder. So what happens is Jack Pursey goes to trial for this case. And he's convicted, but he's given a life sentence. And it's hard,

“I think, in 2026, for us to understand how a life sentence in a crime of this horror was something”

that was really unacceptable, especially in this area of Florida. And it was a political liability for the state attorney's office. So Jim goes to trial six months after this, but there's just not a lot of there there. There's Jack Pursey's account and not much else. So shortly after Jack Pursey gets this life sentence, the lead investigator in the case John Holiday goes into the Pinellas County jail. And he starts pulling guys out of their cells. And these are guys who've been

housed with Jim daily. He pulls 15 men out of their cells in all. And he brings each one one by one to this little room. And he asks them what Jim has been saying about his case. And if they have any information about Jim's role in this case, it's important to note that at least four of them

“remember that there were newspaper articles that were spread out in this room describing this”

murder that had all the details one might need to give testimony in a case like this. The lead investigator denies that that was the case and his denied that under oath. But he ends up leaving the jail that

day without getting information. The guys say Jim's never said anything to us or Jim said he's

innocent, but the word is out in the jail that this case needs a snitch. When Jim daily was moved to

investigator. Jim had confessed everything to him. These men did not know each other. At Jim's trial,

“again, there's just not a lot of information. And there's nothing that is directly tying Jim”

to the crime. There's no forensic evidence, there's no physical evidence, there's no obvious motive and even the story that Jack Peercy hasn't made a lot of sense. So Scalnik is brought in, Scalnik says that Jim confessed this to him and he has all the basic details of where it occurred and who the victim was, what she looked like. But the icing on the cake of his testimony is he describes what he says is how Jim describes the killing. He says that Jim says that he's

holding Shelley in his arms. He's stabbing her and she's staring up at him, but she will not die. And it's a horrifying image of this young girl who is looking up pleading at someone while she's being stabbed to death. To be clear, there is zero corroborating evidence to back up the story. Paul went on to say that when he heard the confession, it was hard to accept it. He said, "I had seen this gentleman walking in the hallways, laughing and kidding with other inmates

and all of a sudden to see a man's eyes and to describe how he can stab a young girl." What did Jim daily say about Scalnik's testimony?

“Which Jim told me was that he was so beyond, I can't remember the words he used,”

but what Jim said was that he was just so stunned that someone could get up on the stand and tell falsehood after falsehood. This just absolutely outrageous story in a case where the electric chair is at play. That was, that was what Jim was facing at that time. And it's very common for defense attorneys to advise their clients when they're sitting at the defense table, listening to testimony, to have no reaction to what a witness is saying. And the idea

behind that is you don't want to have jurors see a defendant get really angry. Maybe that would make them think they could commit this crime. So Jim is advised and this is typical to not have a reaction to what Scalnik is saying. So he has to sit there stone-faced while Scalnik is saying these lies. Can that seem like the hardest thing? The hardest thing? And then the ways that juries might interpret that? How much of a role did Paul Scalnik's testimony play in the trial and

“sentencing of Jim daily? I believe it played in enormous role because there really no forensic”

evidence, no physical evidence, no motive. Jack Pursey didn't even end up testifying at the trial. He took the fifth. So the state had nothing. In the end, the state brought in three jail house informants. Scalnik's testimony was by far the most extensive and detailed, but just to give a sense

of things. I have always viewed any case that had a jail house informant in it as a huge red flag

that either this was a possible innocence case or something was terribly wrong with the case. I've actually never heard of a case in which there were three jail house informants. I'm sure it's happened before, but that just gives you a sense of how weak the evidence was. Jim daily was convicted of murder in the first degree, and sentenced to death. When Pamela Coloff asked one of the prosecutors in Jim daily's case about Paul Scalnik's

testimony, she said she never willfully and intentionally provided false evidence or testimony

to a court or jury on any case. Another prosecutor said, if we did not believe that his testimony was truthful, we wouldn't have had him testify. Jim spoke at the sentencing hearing and said that in Penelis County, the pursuit of convictions has been turned into a win-it-all cost game,

Five days later, Paul Scalnik was released. One floor to parole and probation commission memo stated

“that his release was "due to his cooperation with the state's attorney's office in the first”

degree murder trial." Paul promised he would stay in town to testify in three upcoming murder trials and to attend his own trial for grand theft. Instead, he went back to Texas. And once he was there, he managed to scam a jewelry store out of almost $30,000 of merchandise. He finally gets caught. He's extradited back to Florida, and he's very angry that he's being asked to stay in jail before these other murder trials happen that he's going to testify in. He's angry that they

won't trust him once again to go free and show it for trial. So, in retaliation, he writes a sworn affidavit in which he says that everything he said in all his prior testimony, in all these cases in Pinellas County, had been, all that information had been fed to him by police and prosecutors, and it was false testimony and he takes everything back. The prosecutors are then in the same

“exact position that all these defendants have been in for years of, wait, what? We did what?”

And they have to try to defend themselves. And one of the most incredible legal documents I've

seen in my entire career is what they file in response with the court in which they say Paul Scalnek is lying about what he's saying about us. No prosecutor and no investigator fed him information, but everything he said prior to this in these other cases is true and should remain on the record. It's really wild. And he, in the end, gets the upper hand. He, at that point, they want him to get out of Dodge. They want him to stop talking. They cut him a deal where he's

“going to serve his time, even for his Florida crimes in Texas. And he gets this sweetheart deal”

back in Texas. He's released after not very much time, but Penelis County prosecutors want him gone. They're done with him by then. Just before Paul Scalnek was released, he wrote a letter to a

judge saying, "The State Attorney's Office has always characterized me as an honest,

fourth-right witness. And together, we never lost a case. We reached out to the Penelis County State Attorney's Office for comment on the case's Paul was involved in, but haven't heard back." They have said in a past statement that he had no time was an agent of the Sheriff's Office or the State Attorney's Office, and that the State Attorney's Office never provided any leniency to Paul Scalnek in exchange for his testimony. It also stated that all the information Paul Scalnek

provided was independently verified, and the office never received information indicating

that his testimony was incorrect. In November 1989, Paul went back to his hometown in Texas. He got married again. He told her he was a real estate developer and gave her a youth jaguar. God knows how he kept the shade going, but he did. And so she had a 16-year-old daughter, Misty Anderson, and Paul Scalnek zeros in on her and does to her what he had done before. He molests her. She goes to police, and thankfully, they really, really take action.

Unfortunately, he was known to them as a first time sex offender, so he didn't get the kind of punishment he would have gotten. I had the Karen Parker crime worked its way through the courts. He was sentenced to 10 years in prison and served his full term. After he was released in 2002, he didn't register as a sex offender as he was required to do and left Texas. He went to Boston, where he told people that he was a lawyer named

his clients realized he hadn't been doing any work for them at all. And just over a year,

“after he'd been released, he was arrested again. He was charged with larceny, and the unauthorized”

practice of law. While he was in prison in Massachusetts, Jim Daly's lawyers subpoenaed him to testify in a hearing about Jim's case. They were hoping that Paul would say that the prosecutors had coached him before he testified in Jim's trial, and that they'd offered him a deal.

But when Paul was questioned, he said that he had never lied.

That statement became part of the court record, and would come up every time Jim Daly tried to appeal on the basis of an unfair trial. After Paul's Galnic was released from prison in Massachusetts, he never reported for probation, and claimed he was a retired lawyer named E. Paul Smith. He kept illegal dictionary around, with E. Paul Smith Esquire, attorney at law, embossed on it. He also claimed he had health problems

from serving as a Marine Corps fighter pilot, and was in treatment for brain cancer at the VA. Paul shaved his head to make it look like he was in chemotherapy. Any kept taking people's money to help them with legal issues. He was arrested again, and sentenced to 50 months in federal prison. Pamela Coloff went to visit him there in 2018.

He spoke about how prosecutors and he said, "We never lost a case," and I thought that was

so interesting that he spoke of how he worked with them in that way. He told me a few lies upfront that were such bald-faced lies that I knew they were lies. One was that he had a yacht that he kept in Belize, which he showed me a picture of a hundred-foot yacht. He had these offshore bank accounts in the Cayman Islands. I knew that none of that was true. Pamela Coloff says that Paul told her he'd tell her more of his story in the future. But then, when she tried to see him,

more talked to him, Paul kept saying he was too sick, or that he hadn't gotten her letter,

because something had gone wrong in the mailroom. He ended up never giving her the information.

She was hoping for. And so I finally realized he had calmed me. He had given me exactly what I hungered for. This is what he had done with everyone. He sized me up. He knew what I was hungry for. He fed it to me. And I an investigative journalist, who knew he was a

“con artist with a long rap sheet. I bought into that, and I think that speaks to if you're hungry”

for something, he knew how to read that. But Pamela did see him again one last time. In 2019, a week after Jim Daley's death warrant was signed. He'd been on death row for more than 30 years. So I went to the nursing home where Paul's gal neck was living at that time. And I said to him, I don't know if you remember the case of a man named Jim Daley, but he has received an execution date. And if you're ever going to tell the truth about what really happened in the

jail, this is the time to do it. And he refused. He stuck to his story. He stuck to his story. And it was interesting. You could see he had other regrets. When I brought up the case of Freddy Gaines,

“there was an expression that came across as face where I think there was some regret. Freddy was”

very young when this happened. And he was a very fun and lively and charismatic guy at that time. And I'm sure Scalnic remembered that and reflected on the fact that here was someone who was going to die in prison because of him. What was it like to be with him in person? So the first thing to know is that even in his advanced age, not being in good health, I could see that charm that he had when he was a young man. He was so easy to talk to. He was a terrific listener.

He was very, very well spoken. But there was something that happened when I went to visit him. He showed me a scar that was on his knee. And he said that that scar had come from the time when

taken captive and he'd become a prisoner of war. And that scar, which was very visible, was from that time. And I remembered when he told me that something that my mother had told

“me growing up, which is if you're going to lie, you have to have a really good memory.”

Because when I had first gone to see him in prison and he had that scar and it was very visible

that day, he told me that it had come from a terrible car accident that he had been in Austin in the 1970s, which I feel certain is what it really was from. I found no evidence, no records that he was ever in the military whatsoever. No, it's surprising. Did he say anything about why people had confessed to him so often? He really couldn't provide the answers for that. I really probed that. And he seemed sort of unconcerned about whether I actually believed these confessions

were true. He was really at that point very focused on how lonely he was at the end of his life.

And I remember after this five hour conversation telling him that I had to go and it had been a tough conversation, but he grabbed my hand very forcefully. And he said, when it's time for me to die, will you come back and sit with me? Paul Scalnick died less than six months later, on March 10,

“2020. When you reached out to people to tell him that Paul Scalnick had died, had they react?”

Nobody believed me. Everybody felt that this was another scam that he had somehow found a way

to escape once again. According to a 2020 report from the National Registry of Exonerations,

7% of wrongful convictions in the registry involve jailhouse testimony. And jailhouse testimony had been a factor in 25% of death penalty cases. There have been reforms in at least a dozen states, in Illinois there are hearings to determine whether jailhouse informant is reliable enough before a case goes to trial. In Texas there are registries in each county to keep track of jailhouse

“informants and the cases they've testified in. And in California the jury's instructed to view the testimony”

of an in-custody informant with caution and close scrutiny. Jim Daily got a stay of execution in 2019 and is still on death row. Criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me, Nadia Wilson is our senior producer, Katie Bishop is our supervising producer, our producers, our Susanna Robertson, Jackie Sadgico, Lily Clark and Lena Sillison. This episode was fact checked by Katie Cedarborg. Our show is mixed in engineered by Veronica Seminetti. Julie now examiner

makes original illustrations for each episode of criminal. You can see them at this is criminal.com and you can sign up for a newsletter at this iscriminal.com/newsletter. Pamela Cole-Off's book is "Catch the Devil," a true story of murder, deception, and injustice on the golf coast. We hope you'll consider supporting our work by joining our membership program Criminal Plus. You can listen to Criminal This is Love and Feberi's Mystery without any ads.

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