Cancer, Cover-Ups & Chemical Immunity: Inside the Monsanto Papers with R. Brent Wisner, Esq

- When people are exposed to glyphosate,

they develop cancer, diabetes, and their kind of disruption, infertility, lower testosterone.

“- These are chemical companies that are not American.”

You've got Chem China. They want to spray certain pesticides in America that they don't even allow in China. I mean, that is biochemical warfare in my opinion. - They've realized they're not gonna win

the public opinion. So they're just going straight for the goalet. They're going after the government. They've introduced all these laws that create a special immunity for bear and pesticide makers.

That says you cannot sue. - And then what happens to American citizens, American families, and farmers? - They suffer. They get no money, no compensation,

no settlement, no right to sue.

They just get poisoned and there's nothing they can do with that.

- Do not believe that glyphosate in Argentina is causing increases in cancer. You can drink a whole quart of it and it won't hurt you. - Yes, you want to drink some? We have some here.

- I'd be happy to actually, not really, but not really. - I know it wouldn't hurt me. - If you say so, I have some glyphosate. - No, I'm not stupid. - Okay, so you...

- No, but I know this dangerous thing. - I know people try to commit suicide but then it fails fairly regularly. - Tell the truth, it's not dangerous to humans. - No, it's not.

- So are you ready to drink one glass of? - No, I'm not an idiot. - Interview me about golden rice. That's what I'm talking about. Okay, then it's finished.

- And then the interview is finished. - Let's see, that's a good way to solve things. - Yeah. (upbeat music) - Hundreds of thousands of Americans

have touched a garden weed killer and ended up with cancer. The company behind it spent decades hiding the truth, twisting science and tracking anyone who dared to speak out. Today on Culture Apothecary,

I'm talking to our Brent Wizzner, the attorney who took down Monsanto in a $2 billion verdict. He is the reason we have the Monsanto papers. He uncovered the shocking documents

the world was never supposed to see.

And we talk about the upcoming Supreme Court battle that could change everything as well as what is currently happening with pesticide liability shields on the state level. This is a very risky interview to do.

If you appreciate these hard hitting episodes, please pause and quickly leave a five star review on Appalach Spotify saying why you believe.

“Culture Apothecary is the most important podcast”

in the health space. Watch this episode on the Real Outsclar YouTube channel or Culture Apothecary on Spotify. Please welcome the attorney who took on Bayer Monsanto and won Brent Wizzner to Culture Apothecary.

You were making a name for yourself as a young attorney. You come across this couple who sweet marry couple, they love to garden. And this case comes across your desk and you notice they're not the only ones.

There's hundreds of thousands of couples who love to do yard work who are all being diagnosed with a certain illness. What was happening that you noticed and what did all of these people have in common?

- Wasn't we who figured it out? The International Agency for Research on Cancer had looked at glyphosate and shown through rigorous examination of the studies and everything that it was a probable human carcinogen,

specifically causing lymphoma or non-Hochkins lymphoma. And we were obviously hired by a couple to take a look at this. We looked at the monograph and went, "Oh my God, the science is there."

And then I called up some of my attorney friends and said, "Hey, do you know anything about this?" And they said, "Yeah, we're having a meeting." Next week in Denver, let's all get together and talk about this.

So we had a conference with about six, seven different law firms ended up ended up being only three and we decided to do the litigation.

“That's how it all started and it started”

because each law firm was being approached from different people and we came together and said, "We have a problem solve." And we were a law firm's all over the country. Virginia, Colorado, California.

We just all came together and said, "Let's figure this out." - So you noticed hundreds of thousands of Americans were being diagnosed with cancer and what they all had in common was that they were in contact with glyphosate or round-up weed killer?

- Yes, it's a little bit more sophisticated, right? So for example, they do these things called epidemiological studies where they compare people to expose the glyphosate or round-up to people who aren't and they follow them for periods of time to see what their rates of cancer are.

And what those studies consistently show is that when human beings are exposed to round-up in real-world settings and gardens and farming or ever and they're not protected, they have a much higher risk of developing cancer.

And actually, there's a bunch of other side effects as well. I mean, there's diabetes, there's metabolic syndrome, there's endocrine disruption, there's a whole bunch of issues that have been shown in the science, but we focused initially on cancer.

- The first couple that reached out to us were the McCalls.

They were actually, they had an avocado orchard in Central California. And they were actually the Mr. McCall and Terry McCall were the uncles of someone who worked at the firm, uncle and aunt

to someone who worked at my firm. And so she actually brought the case to us on behalf of her family because Mr. McCall had passed away and so had their dog both from lymphoma.

And he even sprang round-up.

“It's the only thing they used on their property”

because they thought it was safe. The dog was following them around, sniffing everywhere. You know, he was sprang. And of course, they both got lymphoma and died very quickly. It was actually pretty tragic.

But Terry, his wife wanted us to pursue the case and because it was such a close, essentially a family friend, right? We had to look into it. And that's when the doors blew wide open. And we started seeing thousands and thousands

and thousands of people with the same story. - What was out like to realize this wasn't an isolated story, but it was actually a national public health crisis. - It's interesting. On a personal note, my father marched with Caesar Chavez

and fought for ag workers. So as a young person, Moncanto was not a good name in my house. My father had worked actively against Moncanto.

And so I'd always wanted to go after them.

I'd always wanted to pursue claims against them because of their really, like, un-tored history with, you know, from age and orange to DDT to you name it. They have a really long standing history of poisoning Americans.

So I always wanted to see them. When this case came to us, I said, ah, it's a loser, you know, it's, you can't beat Moncanto. They always win, you know, we have no chance in heck to beat them. And, but we had to.

And so when we realized a bigger issue and we started bringing in our allies, you know, like, you know, Bobby Kennedy became joined the team,

“that's what we realized that this could have a much bigger impact.”

I think, I mean, I was 34 years old. I was a kid lawyer at the time. And so it was kind of like a, you know, eye-opening experience of how big of an impact this could have if we could win.

- What made you realize that Moncanto might have known about the risks of glyphosate, but chose to hide them from the public anyway? - Aside from my just general cynicism of, and the belief that Moncanto isn't a good company,

we did discovery, right? We got documents, we got emails, we got millions and millions and millions of documents, and we poured through them for tens and tens of thousands of hours. - What was the most shocking thing you saw?

- It was two, really.

The first was the origins of glyphosate in the 70s, right?

So they actually had to test it in animals to see if it was a carcinogen. And they tested it at this called lab called IBT Laboratories. When we looked into it, we discovered a couple things. This guy named Paul Wright who worked from on Santo,

left Moncanto and joined IBT Laboratories. They then conducted the test on glyphosate, all great, everything's wonderful. He then left IBT and came back to Moncanto three or four years later.

A year later, the feds brushed in, arrest him, and prosecuted him for fraud. IBT was a complete scam. I mean, people went to jail. - What do you mean it was a scam?

- They made up the data. - What? - Yeah. - There was no tests? - They were tests. These rats were literally like, there's videos of this,

but these rats were literally like drowning in like, faulty sprinkler systems. And there was no actual science being done. They just fabricated the data. And they submitted it to the federal agencies,

who then said, "Oh, it looks like it's safe." And so the entire origins of glyphosate was fraud. Of a Moncanto employee who literally joined IBT, committed fraud and then left. And then Moncanto then paid him, handsomely,

and paid for his defense, millions of dollars. And so like that's me was like, wow, this product was born with literal fraudulent crap. And this is all public record you can look it up. He went to jail.

So that was the first one that just blew my mind. The second one was in the '90s, they were using glyphosate and Columbia for cocaine eradication. So they're trying to fight the drugs

by killing the actual plants, using glyphosate. But as part of that, they were just literally dropping this stuff on villages, right? And these villagers were being doused with roundup,

pretty regularly from the government. So these researchers actually went in and took blood from these people and compared their blood and the genotoxic damage in their cells pre exposure and after exposure.

And documented scientifically that as you spray people to round up, you increase the risks of these genotoxic reactions, which can lead to cancer. And it showed it pretty cleanly.

The more you spray, the more of this reaction you saw on these people. And this is during a time when Monsanto

“was telling people it's safe enough to drink, right?”

This is like, I mean, this is his madness. Well, that researcher, they published their results and Monsanto then hired a doctor, named Dr. Perry, a preeminent researcher in England to look into it and advise them on what to do.

But he looks into it and he says, you guys have a problem.

you have a problem. You need to study this for cancer. This is a real concern and the email responses within Monsanto was, does this guy know who he works for? Does he know what he's doing?

We are not gonna do these studies.

And they basically blackballed him, put him aside,

and then hired a different researcher, a guy named Dr. Williams, who then published in 2000, the Williams Monroe's and Crow article, which was completely ghost written by Monsanto. Again, shown in the emails.

- And that article said, what? Why was that article important? - Well, that article was a full summary of all the data, and it was relied upon by EPA and all regulators to show that glyphosate was safe.

“- And that's what we've been using for the last 20, something years?”

- Until two months ago, it was finally retracted because the editor of the journal said, this is ghost written by Monsanto, this is an actual science and they pulled it. Took 25 years, but it finally got pulled.

And I was because of the documents we released in the Monsanto litigation. - So all of the quote-unquote evidence that we hear people in the agriculture industry say, glyphosate is completely safe.

Round up a safe, it doesn't cause cancer. It's all lie. - Yeah, exactly. And the EPA, right? So you look at the EPA, the guy named Jess Rowland,

that's the person who did the analysis for the EPA. I think that was under Obama, I think it was under the Obama administration. And you'll see this crosses all political spectrums. This is not a political issue, this is a science issue.

- Sure, yeah. - And you see this guy, Jess Rowland, literally emailing Monsanto scientists saying, how do I deal with this study? How do I respond to this?

And then internally Monsanto is talking about how they're going to hire Jess Rowland because he's going to be retiring in six months from the EPA, and he's done such good work for them. I mean, this is all in the documents.

This is in the Monsanto paper.

“Is it actually led to a DOJ investigation into Jess Rowland?”

I don't know what happened with that, but it did open one up.

And so, yes, the answer is when the EPA comes out,

or when scientists come out and Bayer comes out and says, it's safe, that we've done a million studies. It's all safe. It's a lot, because the study's actually showing it. - Did their internal emails and paperwork

show that they knew it was causing cancer and that they were trying to cover it up? - Yeah, 100%. We have emails where they literally are saying, yeah, we have this risk showing this study

reach out to the author of the article and see if we can get them to change the language, so it doesn't sound so bad. So Monsanto has this thing called Freedom to Operate. It is a budgetary line item,

and it is a program within the company where they literally attack any scientists or refute any science that in any way shape or form interfears with their freedom to operate

or sell their products without regulatory action. They would attack scientists. They put someone publish something. They'd go hire a letter writing campaign to get the journal article retracted.

I mean, it was relentless, and they attacked attacked. Every scientist that ever had the nerve to say anything about glyphosate, it's pretty disturbing. - When this case went to court, and you've got all of this evidence in court

that Monsanto was actively covering up that they knew their products cause cancer. How did they try to defend themselves? I'm just so curious.

- So the first thing they say,

which is consistent with kind of why I'm here, is they say, what doesn't cause cancer? The EPA says it doesn't cause cancer, so it must not cause cancer. EPA is the end all be all the divine speaker of truth, and they say it doesn't cause cancer,

so therefore don't they're wrong. These crazy plaintiffs lawyers don't know any better. That was the first argument. The second argument was they'd bring in these really fancy scientists who they pay,

you know, hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars to come in there and say, I got my fancy degree from Harvard and John Hopkins, and I'm telling you, I've looked at it, ladies, gentlemen, it doesn't cause cancer, like, it's pretty safe.

I mean, I'd spray this stuff on my own children every day. They'd say stuff like that. It was funny actually, one of the witnesses from on sale, the CEO actually testified, though I spray this stuff on my own house,

I think it's perfectly safe. And when we talked to the jurors later, they were all like, we didn't believe that for a second. There's no way CEO is spraying round up in his mansion in Missouri, there's no way.

- Oh yeah. - So they knew he was full of it, but they took that perspective, right? And then of course, the final attack is, you don't understand it, it's too complicated,

so just say no, that's the last-age defense.

“- So what does unbiased science show about glyphosate?”

- I'm a biased person, so I feel like I shouldn't be the speaker of unbiased science, right? I tell juries the truth, I tell them what I see in the science, I present my own experts, but what I think this data shows

and take this with the greatest salt, 'cause I'm being full of disclosure, I'm a lawyer, it shows that when people are exposed to glyphosate, you know, over a period of time, they develop cancer, develop diabetes, they develop endocrine disruption,

and they develop all sorts of other downstream effects for nose diseases. - Infertility, infertility, lower testosterone,

we have in our society, all of these ailments that scientists just don't understand why, why is testosterone so low?

“Or why is people, why is diabetes flailing about it?”

- Yeah, it's the food, but it's also the glyphosate, 'cause it's in literally every piece of food, every bottle of water. - It's in all of our blood. - It's in everywhere.

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Work critics and scientists actually being tracked for speaking out. Absolutely. They actually had, they haven't heard of these documents where they literally are tracking and following specific scientists

and researchers and they have these hit dossiers that they skipped reporters or anyone that will listen. A good example was a guiding doctor, Christopher Portia, who was a former director of the National Tax College program, really great scientists, an expert actually

for us in the litigation. But they would literally follow him and reach out to any group that would try to work with him to try to basically lackball him. It didn't work because everyone kind of saw through it

and he's so respected, but they tried. And they call it, my favorite was they called orchestrating an outcry. That was the budgetary line item in their plan.

“Was your life ever threatened when you were coming after Montanto?”

Not that I know of. I mean, I have a funny little story. Tell us. I don't want to accuse Montanto with threatening my life, but this did happen, okay?

So it was the first trial and the opening statements

were in a few days. And I had rented this apartment in San Francisco because I didn't live there or anything. I had branches department. And I come into my apartment and it's like a square, right?

So you walk into your kitchen and then you proceed forward with a living room, bedroom, and then bathroom. That's like a little circle, right? And I'm in the kitchen, I'm on my phone texting somebody, texting my partner actually.

And I get, I hear a ding, like a reception of us, of a text message in my bedroom. And I'm like, oh crap, I think there's someone in here. Oh my gosh. So I don't know what I was thinking.

I grab a knife. And I start screaming, I got a knife. I'm coming around. I probably look like a crazy person. Now when I'm walking around and I go around,

I get into my bedroom, there's no one there.

And then I look at the front door and the front door closes. So I was like, oh God, with someone in here, like, that's really creepy. So then I go down to the reception because it was a secure building.

That's taking you pull up the footage of my hallway. I want to see who's been coming to my door. And they're like, yeah, sure, sure. And they're like, oh, that's so weird. It stopped working, and I want to have a guy.

You're kidding me. I don't know. - What? I just got chills. Listen, maybe it was the wind and the door was open. And I'm crazy, and it's all my imagination.

But I'm telling you, it's scared the crap out of me. And I just assumed my place was bugged from that point forward. Did you move? No, why stay there. I mean, listen, like the thing about this litigation,

which is hilarious, is everything that I was going to do. Every argument I was going to make, every piece of science, every piece of evidence, I told Von Santo, this is my plan. I'm coming after you, and this is how I'm going to do it.

“You should settle with me, and they told me,”

if you think a couple million dollars is a big verdict.

That was literally what they said to me, and I tried to settle with them. And then the verdict was 289 million. How far does Von Santo go to protect their image? I wonder about that. I actually think that that's changed since Bayers took an over.

Von Santo has not really been a liked organization, amongst most of the population. Now, there are certain segments in the farming and ag communities that do have a lot of respect for Von Santo, but I would say the vast majority of people.

If they know Von Santo, they don't have a good image of it. Yeah, so Bayer, bought Von Santo. And that's kind of confusing people, because people are like, Bayer, I thought Bayer made pills. Very interesting.

Can you talk about that? In 2017, I believe, Bayer, which was a pharmaceutical company, decided to, and they had a small ad group,

decided to buy Von Santo, I think, $69 billion.

And it was the brainchild of the CEO at the time. And actually, it's interesting enough, we had started trial. The acquisition went through in the middle of the trial. So we were in the middle trial when the acquisition went through.

And then a month later, we get our verdict, the first verdict, which obviously led to Bayer losing, like, $35 billion in market capitalization the next day. Because people, what, you guys cost this much cancer. You're going to go bankrupt.

That was the reaction to the markets. But yeah, they bought them. And they thought, oh, we're going to take over this great biotech company and have be the owner of all the seeds and the pesticides and troll-basically all food production.

And you know, I'd say that was Bayer's goal.

“I think it's borne out to be probably one of the worst purchases”

in any murder, murder ever. Well, it depends on how you look at it. Because Bayer is actively giving us cancer. And then they're giving you the pill for the cancer. - It's not just cancer, it's diabetes.

I mean, right now, right? How much money is being spent on GLPs, right? For diabetes and weight loss and all these other diabetic medications? Where is the diabetes coming from? Look at the studies.

They show right now that if you look at the amount of glyphosate in your urine, it is directly correlated with your A1C. It's directly correlated diabetes. It's that simple, I mean, but instead of getting rid of the glyphosate, we just make more drugs and pump it in front of it and pump it into people

and hope that solves the problem. It's kind of a vicious circle. - For someone on the outside, this really looks like mafia style tactics. You're talking about isolating critics, attacking credibility, controlling the narrative.

Is this still happening, you think, today, under Bayer, like it was with Monsanto? - Oh, it's worse now. Because what they're doing instead is they realize they're not going to win the public opinion.

They're not going to win the PR battle and they're not going to win the scientists. So they're just going straight for the goalet. They're going after the government.

And so they've introduced all these laws that basically create

a special immunity for Bayer and pesticide makers. They're trying to create a special class of corporations in the United States through law that says you cannot sue the specific types of pesticide makers. Like you can sue drug companies, you can sue all these other people, but we're going to treat pesticide makers a special way

and create immunity for them. So they're doing that through state initiatives as well as an attempt to do it in the federal initiative, which has so far the federal one has failed. - This is what they did with vaccines in the 80s.

- That's correct. Right now, you cannot sue a vaccine maker directly.

“You have to go through the special vaccine court.”

The crazy thing about the vaccine court just as an aside. And I can talk about that all day in a separate show, if you'd like, but is that if you win in the vaccine court, do you know who pays the damages? - Hell, taxpayers.

- So companies like Merck or other vaccine makers, right? Can sell these vaccines?

because their guaranteed purchases,

“the government has to buy the vaccines, right?”

And then if they get sued, the government pays for any liability. It's free money, essentially, for the vaccine companies. There is a way to sue them if you jump through all the hoops and we've actually successfully done that in a few cases, but it's really, really difficult.

But yeah, vaccine, oddly enough, alcohol manufacturers have a special place in our society. You can't sue alcohol makers. Yeah, we passed a law right after prohibition

that basically says, no, you can't sue them,

which is in retrospect crazy 'cause alcohol causes cancer and a whole bunch of other obvious problems, but we can't sue them. And they're trying to create that special place for pesticide makers, which is nutty to me,

because I don't know why we as the society would want to, to privilege pesticide makers. It's not like pesticide makers are really here for the benefit of humanity. They're here to make farming cheaper, but not better.

- Based on what we know about their tactics, do you think that I'm on Bayer's radar because I've been speaking out against glyphosate?

“- Yes, I'm sure they have a dossier about you.”

I'm sure they have a battle plan. Let's part of their PR program. I don't know if things have changed, right? I haven't seen recent stuff since we've made them pay over $16.5 billion in settlements, right?

So I don't know where they are today. I do know they're taking this stuff at a regulatory level and they're obviously, they're having a big fight before the US Supreme Court, which is a big issue. But those issues aside, I don't know if they're still

doing the same thing that traditional Monsanto did. I haven't seen the documents, but I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.

- So here's what's not making sense in my head,

and probably for all the listeners. If you've got a company who has paid out over 100,000 people and admitted in settlements that glyphosate causes cancer, essentially, how can you say with the straight face that it doesn't cause cancer?

That's the rub. They give billions and billions of dollars to settle cases, but they never admit liability. - How much has been spent to settle cases? - I mean, the public, I don't know.

All the numbers, 'cause I haven't settled all the cases, I don't represent everybody, but I know publicly it's an excess of $16 billion so far. - Are we many on the line currently? - Oh, and there's still hundreds of thousands of cases now.

- So wouldn't it be in their interest to make it? So in the midst of all of these lawsuits, people have to stop suing them? - Yeah, it's really simple. All they have to do is warn.

If they just put right there, "Hey, warning may cause cancer." - They're done. - But the issue is, they're claiming that they don't need to do that because the EPA says it's safe. But the truth of the matter is,

the EPA is happy to put a warning label on their products. All they have to do is ask, correct? - That's correct. - Aren't they competing glyphosate companies that have warning labels on their products

at the EPA gladly put on there? - That is correct. There are other glyphosate makers, much smaller ones, who have said, "We don't want to get sued."

So they warn, and they don't get sued. But they are refuses to do so, and they are constantly looking for a silver bullet defense. They're saying, "Oh, if we can get the Supreme Court," right now there's a case before the Supreme Court,

they're now case, and the Supreme Court took the case. They're gonna rule on it. But whether or not because the EPA says, you don't have to warn, that means you can't sue them. That's the question before the court.

And they're gonna decide that issue, which is an interesting case, because even with the conservative Supreme Court, it's a state's rights issue, right? Traditionally, preemption is like the idea

that the EPA is the all-knowing authority. That's a very liberal concept. That's not a conservative concept. That is actually anti-conservative. I'm really interested to see how this court rules

on this important issue, and it's gonna be briefed in our here in the next couple months.

“I think this is important to explain to my audience,”

which is overwhelmingly conservative. - Sure. - We know the left politically is very captured by Pharma, who are politicians on the right primarily captured by?

- Well, just follow the billionaires.

That's what I always tell people.

And if you look on the right, you're gonna see oil, you're gonna see other industries that are highly, highly conservative. And on the left, you're gonna see a lot of biotech companies,

like Pharma, who are liberal. And I think that's where you kind of see an interesting divide. - So it's ag, it's big ag, big chemical is what has captured a lot of conservative politicians. - Absolutely, particularly in the states

where they have big ag industries, right? The red core of America and the center of the country, you see a lot of that influence. I am not conservative, right? I am a liberal, but the thing that I find so fascinating

is that this issue about protecting people against pesticides is it really a political one, right? It's one where the granola eating liberals

because it's not about politics. It's about making sure corrupt organizations like Montzanto and Bear are held accountable. Because there are good organizations that deserve to compete properly.

There are people who do not deserve to get cancer

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and use Alex15, you're going to get that discount. Make 20/26 your cleanest healthiest year yet with branch basics. Was there evidence that Monsanto worked directly with the EPA on glyphosate?

- Yeah, 100%. - What did that entail in what year was this? - So this is back in the '90s. Really, the most agreed just stuff would have been probably the mid-auts

when the EPA was doing its most recent evaluation, specifically on the carcinogenicity of glyphosate. And you'll see in the emails that the EPA was essentially captured, right? It's like what they were doing was

what Monsanto needed them to do. And so there wasn't really any independent rigorous evaluation of the science.

“I think there's also a bit of momentum, right?”

Because this is an organization, the EPA, but approved glyphosate in the '70s, right? And if they were wrong from day one, I mean, there's millions of people who are dead because of that decision.

That's a huge pill to swallow for any organization. So I think the EPA is highly captured. It has been for a while. I think things are changing, actually, under the current administration,

I think that a lot of the captured bureaucrats are being pushed out, which I think is good. I hope they're replaced with competent people

who actually do regulation, we'll see about that second step.

The first step is having it up at the second one. So when it comes to chemicals and specifically what a federal agency like the EPA does, is it a good thing or a bad thing if they are bragging to the American people

that they are doing a lot of deregulating? I think it's a mixed bag. I mean, it's a truth. I mean, the good liberal in my heart says, regulation is good, but the cynical pragmatist in my heart

Bad regulation is really bad, right?

And so when you have organizations like historically, the EPA, the FDA, servicing corporations, instead of actually regulating products, that's really dangerous. Because the EPA, the FDA no longer becomes a regulator,

they actually become an obstruction to justice. And that's a problem. - Well, when it comes to chemicals in the environment, me personally and obviously as a conservative, I don't want regulation.

But in this issue, I'm very nervous about opening the floodgates for just more chemicals. - More regulation, less regulation, it's attention. - Sure.

“- But I also think you have to ask yourself,”

what about the right to sue? Because that's fundamentally what's at stake right now, right? These laws being pushed by Bayer, the preemption decision up before the US Supreme Court, these aren't about regulation.

These are about the right of individual human beings to bring lawsuits against corporations that hurt them, knowingly hurt them. And that's a fundamental right that I think actually draws upon a deep conservative route.

The idea that we have a right to take action to protect ourselves and shouldn't be stopped by government and doing so. I find it just patently ironic that Bayer and Moncanto are trying to get its conservative groups

within Congress to do something that empowers more regulation, that gives EPA the authority of absolute truth, which runs counter to everything that I think the conservative movement believes in. And I think there's a little bit of that going on

because a lot of it isn't being talked about. And I think once conservatives hear this and go, oh my gosh, why is my congressman trying to create a special place for corporations? Why are they trying to empower the EPA?

“This goes against everything that I believe in,”

I think there's a really strong case for Mahah and certain liberals to get together and say, no, we're not gonna allow this. We need to do something to allow the right to sue, the allow the right to protect our families.

I think that's a right that everyone can get behind.

- This is the most important episode of the year.

In the first Trump admin, there was an investigative group who wanted to go into the White House and find out what the White House thought about glyphosate. What did their report uncover?

- It was lobbyist and a group within Moncanto hired a special agency to sort of survey the White House during the first Trump administration, how do they feel about glyphosate? How are they gonna respond to our efforts

with the EPA? Are they gonna be pro against or whatever? And supposedly, and this is, take us with a grain of salt, it was very friendly. They, you know, it was the traditional Republican conservative idea

where pro business, so of course we like businesses. And actually when the first issue of preemption was raised during the first Trump administration, they took the position that it should be preempted, that the EPA is the ultimate arbiter of risk for pesticides.

And that happened during the first Trump administration,

and actually during the Biden administration, you're conservative of listeners are gonna like to hear this, but the Biden administration changed course. That was different than Obama, Obama was also pro preemption, so I'm very mad at him for that.

But the Biden administration did for what it's worth take change course on that issue. And now the Trump administration has gone back again to the original position saying that it should be preempted. Now, the tension there is pretty interesting

because you have on one hand the pro business lobby within the conservative movement, but you also have the maha movement. And there's no way Trump gets in the White House without that. - President Trump knows the importance of maha.

He loves maha. And this is the thing. I think he's changed his mind on a lot of things, since the first Trump administration about people he had around him, just about beliefs and general,

I mean, look at everything he's learning about food. He just the other day, it was reported that he asked his AIDS to come and he said, "Bring in the poison." He wanted to look at his snacks. He picked a few things out.

He said, "All right, I get the poison out of here." I mean, so he's making baby steps at least. - Sure.

“- Do I think that he is perfect on every all of these health issues?”

No, of course not, but I do think that he's learning. I think he's expressing a willingness to learn. He has Bobby Kennedy around him who has fought his entire career on the environmental talks and chemical issues.

- There is a massive Supreme Court case coming up this summer. It's for monthsanto versus Dernel. What is it, steak? - It's the issue of whether or not you consume on Santo for failing to warn.

The idea, it's called preemptions, federal preemptions. And the idea is if the EPA doesn't require a warning, then no state can require a warning. That's the argument put forward by monthsanto. That the EPA sets the floor and the ceiling

of what is permissible to be said about a pesticide. So for example, if the EPA doesn't say anything about warning about cancer, then pesticide manufacturers are not allowed to warn about cancer. That's the argument.

There's a split here, okay. Multiple courts of appeal out of the 11 circuit

in the ninth circuit which is out of California. Have agreed that it's not preempted. So there's actually very strong case law supporting that it's not about argument.

There's one decision out of the third circuit out of Philadelphia

that actually found that it was preempted under certain circumstances. And so with that framework, the Supreme Court is taking the issue and they're gonna make a ruling about whether or not that's the case.

If they rule in Mont Santos favor, it's the silver bullet. Every lawsuit against Mont Santo ends related to glyphosate. - And then what happens to American citizens, American families and farmers? - They suffer.

They get nothing. They get no money, no compensation, no settlement, no right to sue. They just get poisons and then they can do about it. - What is the deal with Clarence Thomas

in this case in particular? - Fascinating issue there. Justice Thomas former General Counsel in Mont Santo before he joined the bench. So he has a history with the organization.

But he is also repeatedly written that he is fundamentally against preemption in multiple cases. It's a state's rights issue. And he's written very scaling to sense saying

it's unconstitutional, taking a very extreme position.

“And so we're gonna see where he falls on this, right?”

This is a justice who if he's loyal to his roots, his beliefs and how the government should operate of the constitution, he should rule actually in our favor. But if he is pro-corporate and goes with the Mont Santo,

used to be his employer, then he'd have to really undo everything that he stood behind. So I'm really curious to see how Justice Thomas falls on this issue.

- Essentially the issue is the Supreme Court needs to understand that all of the science, and I'm saying science and quotes, that was proving in quotes, that glyphosage and cause cancer was completely fraudulent.

That's a really important part of this case. - That's correct. - So if we're loud about that, like this case is on faulty science, this product causes cancer,

we have to be able to warn people, we know that this is the case, is that helpful or is it just like yelling into the void? - Okay, there's two answers to that. - Sure.

- The first answer is the Supreme Court is politically isolated,

they don't make political decisions, they just rule on the law, they have their beliefs and their systems,

“and I think there's a lot of truth to that.”

I will say though that the confidence in the United States Supreme Court today is lower than it's ever been in history. - Are you saying that from a liberal perspective, or just in general?

'Cause I feel like my audience probably likes the Supreme Court. - No, I think that's true, but I think historically what I mean by respect, I mean, I don't mean we like the decisions, right? Like, or that's gonna split along party lines

or ideologies all day. What I mean is the respect and difference to the institution, you know, when the Supreme Court said Bush, one, Florida, right, the next day, Gore said I can see. The Supreme Court made the decision, right?

They heard that much difference to them by politicians and the public. They have high, high, unlike Congress and no different White House at the different times, they're approval ratings or sky high.

Right now they're lower than they have been historically by a lot. And I think that's a function of frankly overturning the abortion rulings that probably were legally suspect to begin with,

but they did overturn them.

“And I think that has led a lot of people to think,”

well, this is just a political thing. It's not a lot of, not a thing. Now I actually do think it's a lot of thing. I don't think that's a fair criticism of the High Court, but I do think that there's a perception.

If people conservatives and liberals show, not just the Supreme Court, but the politicians, that this is not something that we should do. We should not treat bear, especially in our world. Monsanto does not deserve a special place in the world.

And it's not just bear, right? It's all pesticide manufacturers. This is all pesticide manufacturers. And I think this should also interest conservatives in your local conservative legislators

is that these are chemical companies that are not American. So you've got Chem China, for example. - So they want to spray certain pesticides in America that they don't even allow in China.

So they want to bring chemicals that they won't even use on their own citizens to America to poison us. I mean, that is like biochemical warfare in my opinion.

- Yeah, basically, and literally there are surfactants, right?

These are the soaps and stuff used to make life to say, get into the cell, kill the plant, that are just banned in Europe, ban in other countries, banned in South America, and yet they're used specifically here in the US, right?

Because we let them do it, and it's cheaper. I mean, that's the simplicity on it. And it makes no sense that whether it's a foreign company or even a bear's on American, bears a German company now, right?

We're talking about foreign actors who are allowed to make money off of poisoning us. And it blows my mind that we would want left or right

I think that's absolutely the right position.

- In some of these states that are trying to pass these chemical liability shields, or failure to warn laws, is that what it's called-- - A liability shield labeling shield, yeah. - Some of them also apply to common household products.

You wouldn't be able to sue for if they cause cancer that you're around in your kids around all the time, like ant traps, and different things used even inside the home, correct? Well, 'cause it's an insecticide.

So, therefore, it's covered by the federal laws that govern fungicide, insecticides, herbicides, et cetera. So, any of those chemicals, I mean, yeah,

“the ant traps you name it, rat poison, any of those things, right?”

Those are all theoretically covered by these shield laws, where, for example, if a child could get into one of those traps and eat it and get sick and die, you could not sue. - I want to go on a mission, and I want to make Dandy Lyon's great again.

I want Americans to stop being afraid of Dandy Lyon's in their yard.

The other issue is that we are just hiring these chemical companies to spray our yards with all of these kids or causing chemicals, and that our kids are playing out there, and they're running around barefoot and they're out there all day in the summer.

And nobody is thinking about this because their yard looks great. Their yard looks great. We're doing so much with Maha talking about the corruption, and the pharma industry, and the food industry,

and we are just totally ignoring the environmental pesticide issue that is also where it's soaking, we're absorbing it through our skin, and our feet when we're walking on this grass, and breathing it in our air. Can you talk about that long care service, is it all?

- The good news is for what it's worth, is they've taken glyphosate out of home route up. It's no longer used in the product, because they got sued too much. They're saying, this isn't worth it.

It's a business decision, they stop doing it. It's still sprayed like crazy in agriculture, right? But I think, I think from it comes to like, it's really easy to say, I want to be thoughtful about the medications I give my family,

the vaccines I use, the foods I feed my family, right? It doesn't just stop there.

“You have to think, okay, what about my yard?”

What about the HOA that's spraying all these wonderful sidewalks to make sure that they're clean of weeds? What are they spraying? - One of the biggest problems with the glyphosate litigation has been finding a control group, right?

Whenever you want to study the health effects, you gotta find people exposed, people who are unexposed. Well, there's no one who's unexposed. Everybody is exposed. So you have to find higher exposed to lower exposed.

- We literally have to go to another planet and find aliens. - Or find some lost tribe and some like, islands somewhere in the Pacific that hasn't seen humans, other humans civilization, you know what I mean? But like, that's not, that has its own problems.

So I guess my point is, it starts in the home, and it starts not just with paying lip service, right, to, oh, I wanna biorganic or whatever. It's actually looking beyond those labels to see, okay, what is really going on here?

Why does my kid have autism? Did I feed them baby food contaminated with heavy metals? Did they get poisoned from some medication?

“I gave them, is there something else going on here?”

Could it be Tylenol? I mean, there's lots of issues here that people need to look at. And it shouldn't be a political one. (upbeat music)

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Y dot com slash Alex, use code, Alex that's at c.com, U.T.Z. Y dot com slash Alex code, Alex. Chemical lobbyists argue that chemical liability shields protect farmers from frivolous lawsuits. Is this true or does legal immunity actually harm farmers?

No one is suing farmers. No one is suing a farmer. We're suing the chemical companies. The only immunity that's granted from this is to the chemical companies, not the farmers. The problem with farming in America is that we don't value it enough as a society, right?

We don't pay farmers enough, we don't pay enough for food. And so they're forced to do everything in their power with limited manpower, with people who don't want the jobs, right, to produce food at very low costs. As a society, that needs to change. If farmers are going to get paid more, they need to be given a prominent place in our society.

People should grow up saying, I want to be a farmer, that should be a dream. We need to build that breadbasket in America again. And that's, again, not political, that's just reality. We do that. Then farmers won't need to use chemicals.

They can use machines. They can use time and labor to offset the increased productivity. And that's totally doable. It's been shown in studies that it can be done. It just requires a little bit of time and energy.

These chemical liability shields on the state level that they're trying to get passed are, it covers like 57,000 chemicals. Every chemical that's governed by Fifra, yes. Okay. The states that are vulnerable to this are Tennessee, North Carolina, Florida, Iowa, Oklahoma.

That's correct. Missouri. That's correct. And Kansas. Can I get them all?

Yes. And two of already passed. Yeah.

“And I think the most pressing one right now is in Kansas where it has passed.”

I believe it's passed the house and it's now before the Senate in the state legislator. And they're trying really hard to push it through on a rocket rocket. I mean, what they are strategy with these shield laws is get them passed before anyone knows what the heck's happening. Right.

And so the, the Mahah and the people who are opposing these, these statutes don't even have a time to respond or mobilize that their paths and made in the law before everyone has a chance to stop them. And once that happens, it's done. Right.

You are poisoned in North Dakota or in the state of Georgia, which is a gigantic state. If you're poisoned by a pesticide there, you have no right of action. You're very close friends with Bobby Kennedy. That's correct. Is it interesting to you that with all of the chemical liability shield stuff going on?

Someone like Zippy, the CEO of Farm Bureau, like four days after we're all raising a rocket online about these issues, is asking Bobby Kennedy for a meeting ASAP and then very, very fast post photos of him and Bobby look, look, I had lunch with Bobby. We're very supportive of Mahah here. I mean, I don't know.

What do you make up that?

“I think that Mahah movement has a lot of power and it scares, scares a lot of people because”

you guys can really make a lot of change right now in America in a way that very few movements can. And I think getting on the wrong side of that is dangerous for people and they want to be seen to be doing the right thing. I think it's really interesting, when you look at Bobby's confirmation hearing, right?

that are supposed to be on my side, right? Senator Warren, for example, she literally used my law firm. My name as a punching bag against Bobby to somehow make it seem like he was going to be biased because God forbid, he had sued a drug company once before. How dare he ever considered doing that in the future again, if he's not a long other

secretary. It was such a betrayal to me because just so you know, the trial alerts typically support Senator Warren. We give her money, right? We are usually half her back.

We are the ones who are fighting to get dangerous products off, which she has spent her entire career doing, and yet when it came to Bobby, she decided to throw us under the bus.

“And I think that politicization is a mistake.”

I think I think what Maha is trying to do and what Bobby is trying to do, you know, with Trump, but as I didn't vote for the guy, I do support his nomination in installment of Bobby. I think they have a chance to do some real good. Some of these chemical liability shields on the state level also have a section preventing

people, not only from suing the chemical companies, but from speaking out negatively about big food or big chemical, correct? I've seen some language that would create a basically a chilling effect on speaking poorly of these type of things.

Those provisions will never be appelled constitutionally, right?

There's a first amendment right to speak. I don't think anyone actually thinks it could be enforced effectively. I think really what could be enforced is you just can't sue. You can't bring a lawsuit.

“And if you want to get a company to do the right thing, you have to make them pay it.”

When I got the $2 billion verdict against Maha and Santa, right, what I told the jury was, you have to come back with a number so that 10 years from now, they're going to be in a board room and they're going to have the next pesticide with the next issue and they're all going to decide should we do the right thing or should we just make money? They're going to be trying to decide the right decision.

And some young kids going to raise his hand and say, what about the pillied case, what about the McCall case, what about those lawsuits? Maybe we should do the right thing here because it doesn't cost us so much to do the wrong one. How do you make these companies change?

You make them pay. That's the only language they speak and taking away the right to make them pay, which is what's at stake with these immunity laws, what this important decision before the U.S. Supreme Court is to make a break of, do we want to be run by corporations or do we want to have the rights as individuals to protect our families?

That's what that's think. Why is fighting big ag and big hem going to be one of the hardest battles for Maha? I think there's two big issues.

The first issue is there's a traditional pro business movement in the conservative movement

and I think the way I respond to that is, we'll hold on a second. You're not saying to be anti-business, we're anti-corrupt businesses because for every corrupt Moncanto, there is a really good company over here trying to make it who's getting suffocated because they're planning by the rules, they're doing the right thing. So I actually think from a very traditional free market world, fair application of the

rules is actually benefit for the free market. The second big issue from Maha when it comes to dealing with taking on big ag is you have these entrenched politicians in large ag communities that are going to have a hard time aligning themselves with a Maha movement that they want to support the mass food industrial

“complex essentially and I think those individuals are going to be really key from a legislative”

perspective and I think they're really in a tough spot because they have their actual voters, the Maha people who want to have change but then they have the money coming from their donors saying don't you dare touch our cash crop literally and I think that tension is something that's playing out right now.

I think Moms across America is an amazing nonpartisan resource and group to get involved with

if you want information on different legislation or just want to help protest or go to rallies or do anything I know a lot of people ask how can I involve what can I do? I'm a Moms across America that's a really good resource. What books just on the Monsanto drama are your favorite because there's so many good ones. I partial to the Monsanto papers it was written by Kerry Gillum. I like that book quite a bit.

I feature heavily in it so it's not a self promotion but I think it tells a really good story of what we did. People don't realize the Monsanto papers are these collection of documents that were released to the public and people don't realize I did that. I was the guy who sent them to the world and posted them on the internet and I almost got annihilated by a judge.

regulatory lies and politically that I think it's really a good book.

Like how Taylor Swift freed herself from the music industry you did that too. I would not remember myself to taste like but big gem. Also this you know full disclosure they're making a movie.

“Really who's going to play you? Who do you want to play you? Do you know who it is?”

I know who it is and it hasn't been announced. It hasn't been announced.

Can I know what we're done recording? Okay okay are you happy with the pick?

Yes. Okay this is so fun. Okay when's that movie coming out? I guess got greenlit. I think it's going to start production this summer. Oh my gosh funds have this comes out like what two years? Oh probably I think the plan is to get it out before December this year. Really? Yeah they'll want to get it out before the Oscars because it's kind of one of those kind of flicks so. Okay well we should have watching parties you know all across the audience we should

get together and have some watching parties. Okay Brett if you could offer one remedy to heal

“a sick culture it could be physically emotionally or spiritually what would it be?”

From what I'm seeing in the world I think people have to ask questions. I think they have to ask is this product what it says it is? Is this because it says it's safe or says it's been tested or FDA approved? I think we have to question all of that. I think we should rely on our instincts as parents and members of the community to what we think is right and I don't think we should be ashamed of it. I think people should stand after what they think is right about their health

and they shouldn't be afraid to stand up against it when it matters because at the end of the day we're all human. We're all trying to survive as this planet you know it rolls around the sun and plummets into infinity and we need to do our best to make the best of it. Brett and thank you for coming on culture-pothecary. Thank you for having me really appreciate it. Talking about chemicals is

“an as sexy as discussing all the exciting food stuff but arguably it may be even more important.”

Even if we are choosing real whole food for our family if it is sprayed with cancer causing chemicals that can't wash off that sort of defeats the purpose right? I hope you feel ignited and inspired to become the Aaron Brockovich of your town and will join me in the fight against pesticides. Let's let our elected officials know how we feel on this issue. Leave us a five star of you to celebrate the important work done by my team. New episodes come out every Monday

and Thursday at 6 p.m. Pacific 9 p.m. Eastern anywhere you get your podcast. This content is for

informational purposes only and is not intended to be taken as medical advice. Always consult with

a qualified healthcare professional regarding any questions or decisions related to your health or medical care. Amounts Clark and this is culture-pothecary.