The Danger of Outsourcing Your Thinking to AI | Ryan Hawk

I want you to get better at thinking through these hard problems instead of outsourcing that thinking.

“What is it that Ryan Hawk does that looks like cheating to me?”

The way that I give and receive love is curiosity. This idea of going to bed a little bit wiser than you were when you woke up. I think it is a daily fist fight to suffocate excuses. Any excuse, softens the character. I mean, there is nothing more intoxicating as a leader than someone who's coachable.

Ryan, dude, I know you're busy man. I am incredibly excited to have you on the show. I was going to save this, but you brought it up and I asked you the question, you answered in the green room, and it's actually very hot on my brain, so I'm going to be incredibly selfish at the start of this podcast.

You said one of the things that you're curious about is this idea of outsourcing, your thinking, outsourcing, your intelligence to AI, and I want to dig into this topic. I think this is one of the topics of our day, and you're someone who talks to a lot of incredibly smart people, a lot of incredibly growth-driven, well-run organizations, leaders, I mean, leaders at the top of their lane.

So how are the people in your circle, the people that you're having conversations with every day? How are they starting to address this topic, because I have some opinions that I want to run past you, but I want to, I want you to kind of level set this for us. Yeah, I want to think that it's hard to know how everybody's using it, but I think what

my concerns are from a leadership perspective where I'm seeing our people outsourcing, they're thinking they're creative output to AI.

“I think it's important to understand how to best utilize a technology for you, not act”

like it doesn't exist, or try to be the old timer to sit back in my day, like none of that nonsense, either, but if you completely outsource your creative output to say, hey, can you write an email to my team for me, that's a big mistake. How about you have it be a research assistant for you or potentially edit some things for you, but to flat out outsource thinking you're thinking a lot of studies have come out

recently about how your brain will literally atrophy, it will be just like if you lift weights or stop lifting weights, how that could hurt you, hurt your brain.

And so, yeah, I think it's important when I work with leaders, I always try to, we talk

about their actual writing practice, getting the messy thoughts out of your head onto the page. And if you shortchains that process, if you don't do it, I think that you're hurting yourself of long term. And the short term, yes, it can be helpful to get answers to fire back something quickly,

but also people when you look at the ones who are most effective over the long term, we follow others because we authentically know them and are inspired by them. And want to get in line behind them and if they're outsourcing who they actually are and they're thinking to something else, that's your less authentically you and then I think you're going to have less of an opportunity for people to want to follow you and get

in line. So anyway, I think it's very nuanced. I don't think it's a this or that or use it or not, like most things in life, it's not binary. It's, hey, it's a little bit of gray.

“Let's figure out the best way to utilize technology without outsourcing or thinking.”

What do you think, though? I posted actually this morning, I was out for my walk. I go for a 40 pound rock walk, I wear the vest, not the thing on your back. I just found that put a little too much straight on my lower back, but I love the weighted walks and I, you know, I just, I shouldn't do this, but I popped open my phone while I was

walking. I was like halfway through my walk and my mind started to wander, I popped my phone.

And the very first thing I see on top is some marketing guru or influencer to be honest,

yeah, I didn't even recognize a person's name, even though I'm connected to them. And they were hammering AI Slop. So I just popped open my phone, I pulled my phone up and I did this video and I posted on LinkedIn and it was essentially I think the people who are AI Slop shaming and I, this is not what I think you are doing, but I think the people right now who are out in the

internet, AI Slop shaming are the ones who are going to lose or are trying to sell you something. And the reason I think that is like all things, don't we have to kind of be crappy at the thing first before we get good at it, right? Like if you're using AI to help you create emails, your first few times you use it, it's maybe going to sound a little more clunky or a little more like that, you know, not

X, it's not X, it's Y, you know, all these kind of standard patterns that AI falls into, as you kind of maybe fill in some of the gaps around a premise of an email and like it's

period, right, to get to a period where you can mix your intelligence, your thought, your novel ideas with the horsepower of research and articulation that AI can provide.

First of all, I like that you, that first point is so true and I hadn't thought of it that

way, so I appreciate you sharing that. I think that makes a lot of sense that most things when their new or are kind of a mess and it takes time to get through the growing pains and I think some of that's happening. With that said, if people are, if they're, I feel like you're the type of guy who would be willing to work through the mess and get to the other side, where then you're also

using the best of your brain and your ability to think and your ability to utilize technology the right way and use the tool and combine them the right way, whereas some of the fear

is that leaders completely outsource parts of their job and never go back to trying to work

that muscle, specifically I think when it comes to writing in your own voice, getting the messy thoughts out of your head onto the blank page.

“That thing, that process, that's why I write books is that at four times first and foremost”

for me, for me to get clear on what I think about this specific topic of whatever that project is about. And I think if you shortchains that or you don't go through the rigor of what it takes to get to the other side of the messiness of the thinking, you know, what am I actually think about this? I think that's the potential issues that I think you see out there, but yes, the AI Slob shaming, you know, we've probably all done in a little bit or maybe you haven't

put it, but I'm not publicly done that, but if I see a friend post something where it's obvious they didn't write out big dude, just make sure you're not, make sure you're not just like this is all you're going to do moving forward. We know you didn't write that, like I want you got 17 m dashes in it. Yeah, of course, it's not this if that's speaking in threes and

“dashes all the stuff, if that's what you're going to do all the time, I think we're all going to”

know and maybe the tools to get better, but it's I don't even care about how good the tools get, I want you to get better at thinking through these hard problems instead of outsourcing that thank you. So that's, that's the main thing I want for leaders is to make sure that you're still working that muscle of figuring out and working through hard problems so that that muscle doesn't atrophy. Yeah, and I love that. And I think that's the way the feedback should come, right? And I think

you know, you should reach out to your body on the side and say, hey man, like not that I don't disagree with what you put, but there's like six sentences with M dashes and like, you know, you know, I mean, like maybe next time, like take a run through it once. You know, I mean, like on the side, yeah, 100% because we need that feedback to get better, but I just, I worry that there's so much AI doomerism out there right now that people are going to either take what feels comfortable,

“which is just not engaged and keep doing what they've always doing, which I think is an absolute”

path to destruction or they're going to play it super safe and never really learn the nuances

of these tools because if you're willing to dive deeper into them, the possibilities are absolutely endless. And one comment that I have on on what you said is, I think the people or I believe that the people who are journaling or who have always been writing or have a like, you know, not taking process, whether that's voice to notes or they, you know, write themselves a little apple notes on the side or whatever. The people who who have always been thinking for themselves,

like before AI, they're going to continue thinking for themselves as they move forward because it's part of who they am, or part of who they are. I think like there's an AI Darwinism to the leaders who have been able to skate by on other people's ideas that now I think, unfortunately, this tool does not amplify well those who do not have their own novel ideas. If you have a novel idea, this, this technology can take that idea, turn it into an app, a book, a course, an entire career,

right, and do it yourself. But a non novel idea is going to suck on them, if AI is associated or not, you know. When you, my curiosity is getting the best me. So when you, when you write that you built and sold an AI insurance company before anyone called at that, by the way, great line. What does that mean? So I built a digital first native commercial insurance brokerage that was national. So we basically did everything through outsourcing and automation and some analog

in my own practice is what I call a human optimized business model. So, and I'll tell you, this

came out, you're asking questions all answered, right? I found this stat in 2015. So my home industry is the property cash of the insurance industry. This stat that the average customer service rep and an independent insurance agency spends 20 minutes from the time they are notified from a process to the task to the time that task is completed. And some are longer, some are shorter, but that's the average. Of that 20 minutes, five of those minutes are spent interacting with a customer in 15 of

those minutes are actually all the nonsense that it takes to execute that task. And the goal of that agency was to flip that on its head because if I could spend 15 minutes with my customers interacting with them now, I can better understand them. I can cross-sell them. I can upsell them. I can retain them. I can, you know, make sure they feel here heard when they have problems. And then I used, you know, at that time outsourcing and automation because they I didn't really exist to, to kind of

“turn, reduce their transactional time cost. So today, I think, you know, I ended up”

growing it. So if we were the fastest growing small business insurance agency in the country in 2021,

which ultimately, for reasons that are not worth explaining without beers in our hand,

I sold in 2022. And then I watched that company knife, my baby to death, like all PE companies do. And I exited at my first trigger in 2024. So, you know, we still did all right. It was still a wonderful experience. But that's kind of what we did is like, I look at that business. And I'm like, that business launched in 2025 is an absolute monster rocket ship because we were literally built where our humans only did human things, build relationships, solve problems, sell stuff,

everything else. I took off their their plate. And the results were bananas. Wow. So are you doing it again? Like now I coach it. Yeah. Oh, okay, cool. So what's the, what's what's easy mode? So easy mode is the commercialized version of a human optimized business model because that's really shitty to say. Wait, say that again. So the what I called it back when I was building it, like what I wrote down on the piece of paper when I was mapping out the business plan was a human

“optimized business model. That's what I wrote down. That's a mouthful. So the commercialized version of”

that is what I call easy mode. So easy mode is what is it that Ryan Hawk does that looks like cheating to me. That when you do it, I'm like, oh my god, he's freaking cheating man. Like how did he's got the cheat code for that thing? That's your, that's where you fall and building relationships, solving problems and selling stuff. There's in one of those three tasks is your easy mode. That could be speaking. It could be writing books. It could be doing podcasts. It could be understanding the

psychological principles that hold leaders back from being the best version of themselves. There's something that you do, right, that uniquely the human version of you does that to me looks like cheating. That's your easy mode. Doesn't mean it's easy work could be incredibly difficult, right? But for you, it's your easy mode. So easy mode was kind of the easier commercialized package version of this human optimized business model. I like it. Interesting. Okay. I think the cool thing. The

good thing about it is it's really peeked my curiosity. As you know, you do that, you kind of got them. You got them. Okay. Well, what's next? What's next? What's next? You know, that I like that. Yeah. I appreciate that. But I think it all comes back to what you talk about. I really want to get into the book because I love the way you think about these things and what I was really taken by your work. And you've used the word twice so far and I think it is clear in the way that you

present online is curious. And I kind of taking this maybe a little more into just more of your work

in your expertise and if it ties to the book, that's amazing. But why is curiosity so important to

you specifically that in the first, you know, what have we been talking for a little over 10 minutes

“you've used the term twice? Like why is that such an important part of how you operate?”

Have you done the love languages assessment by chance? I have not done the love languages. I know what my news, but I haven't done the assessment. But you know what it is. We all know what the love languages like assessment or love language tools are. So the way that I give and receive love is curiosity. My wife knows this, my friends know this, the people in my life. I think it's the ultimate act of respect and love is to be curious about a person. They're story where they come from

I show up in the world because I'm genuinely interested in people and what they're all about. So it's not even a thought. It just happens. I've found it. It creates amazing opportunities. It creates amazing relationships with people and the entire world is built through people.

“Everything you want to do happens through and with people. So if you want to do anything”

interesting in life, it's probably going to come through and with people. Being curious, showing them love, caring about them is a great way to build a good relationship and those relationships and lead to cool experiences. So yeah, I think it's just the ultimate way to show love. It's the ultimate way to learn. It's the ultimate way to live. Brian Copeland told me many years ago when I want to New York to record with him. Hey, man, chase down your curiosity and obsessions with

great rigor. I like that. I like what I'm seeing here. If you keep doing that,

good things are going to happen. I'm never forgotten when he looked at me dead in the eye and said

that to me and I'm like, all right, I'm just going to keep chasing down what I'm curious about with great rigor. It's like a great, great turn of time. Coming from him, you got to listen to him, right? I mean, that's not the kind of guy that you discounted as advice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I don't know. I think I've just tried to try to live that way and when I do neat things happen, good opportunities present themselves. And it's one of my core values. It's a skill that I think I've developed and

learned over time and didn't really grow up that way, but I am that way now. And yeah, it's the type of people that I want to be with, there are the ones who are curious about life, curious about people, curious about things and ideas. And if somebody's like really into, I don't know, American history or the Civil War or whatever. And I want to hear them obsess about that. I want to hear their obsessions coming out. To me, that's fascinating. Even if it's the topic that

I don't know that much about or even if I don't care that much about it. To me, it's still fascinating

“to hear about somebody else's curiosity and obsessions. That's why I'm, you peaked my curiosity”

with, what is this insurance thing that's AI before it was called AI or what in the hell's easy mode? What does that mean? You hear hard mode? Easy mode. What's this all about? So anyway, I, to me, it's like chasing down what your curious about is just an interesting way to go through life. I couldn't agree more. It's probably one of the most frustrating parts of dating me. I found just that I, you know what I mean? Are you at a relationship?

Yeah, the woman I've been with now, I've been with for almost a year and it's actually going incredibly well. She's wonderful. And, you know, but I have been divorced for four years. I mean,

dude, like, I was married for 15 years. I never expected to get divorced and, you know, not

details aside, you know, it wasn't like she did anything. I did anything. It was just kind of this thing. We're like, she just didn't want to be with me personally anymore. She had other plans for what she wanted to do and we're very good at the business of married. So no, no knock on my ex-wife. We actually incredibly, as much as she drives me nuts, as all exes do, you know, we get along incredibly well and she's a wonderful mother in my children. It's all good. That being said,

I understand that because I am also incredibly curious. I also have incredibly severe ADHD. I am, I have to be so difficult to to like be in a relationship because like in one second, I'll be talking about, you know, reading about the fact that they just found new chambers underneath the sphinx and, oh my God, what does this mean? Is that where the power plant on switch was? And, oh, you know, and then the next sentence I'm talking about, you know, some economics thing that I saw

because some person who doesn't understand economics is talking about how you can't be a billionaire without cheating your way of getting there. You know what I mean? And it's just like this because all these things just fascinate me, like the world fascinates me. So when I picked up on that from you, I was like, and just like senior stuff and watching a few of your shows, I was like, oh my God, I'm going to love this conversation with this guy. So like, how do you, you said that you weren't

always curious? Or at least it wasn't maybe like a core thing that you had as part of your

day-to-day life, and now it has become that? If someone's listening to this and they're going, man, I wish, I would like to have, I like to be a little more curious day-to-day. Do you have any, like, how do we cultivate curiosity? Is this a skill we can develop? Is this like a system or a framework we can

“build a course around and sell to people? Like, how do we, how do you get more curiosity in your life?”

I think it's a quote, "read what you love until you love to read." But apply that to all things in life, not just about reading. Now, that helps with making you want to be a reader because you know, your kids are what, 12 and 10, so you want them to be readers. We all want our kids to be

because I don't care what they're reading. I just want them to love to read because I think

it opens up their mind to be more curious and it will create them to read more books.

“So I think that take that ethos and kind of apply to everything. I also think of Barbara Jordan's”

quote from many years ago, the old Congresswoman from Texas who said, to be interesting, be interested. And so when you meet somebody, try to learn about their story, learn about where they're from, learn about what they're doing and why they're doing it, it can lead you down so many paths that of interesting conversations about other people, like you'll see it really benefits you to genuinely care and be into somebody else or be into a specific topic. It could make you more interesting

because you are interested in other people as well as other things. I did have a question for you though about what it's like dating you because I've heard this and I wonder if you get this too. Does it, especially for the woman you were now, did it feel like you were interviewing her? Or you still interview her at times that I've been told this because if you start asking questions

“or too many questions, they'll say like, am I in an interview? What's happening here? Do you ever”

get that? Yes, and no, I have definitely, I'm going to say something that the audience, judge me, don't judge me. If people listen to this show, they understand where I'm coming from. I have found that left-leaning women do not like to be interviewed and women on the right will have absolutely no problem with it and I don't know why that is a broad stroke from a very small sample set. However, I have found that it, I found that, and I don't know if it's a general

distrust, distrust of men or whatever, but it's kind of like after a few questions, I start to get that like, why are you so interested in me? Why are you going so deep? Where I find with women who tend to be a little more conservative-leaning, it's just a natural conversation about getting to know each other and going deep and they tend to be more willing to talk about their faith, they tend to be more willing to talk about their kids, they tend to be more willing to talk about

this thing. I'm not saying one is right or one is wrong, but it has absolutely been something that I've found, and maybe that's not a true factor, maybe that's a causation or correlation doesn't equal causation for sure, but it also could just be that I am in today's standards very obviously more conservative mind than they're just like I want to be with this guy right from the rip, so that could be it too.

I never thought of it that way. Do you think more people are not on the far ends of the spectrum,

“though? It feels like more people are kind of like, hey, I believe in this, this and this, but I”

don't believe in this and then sometimes they're like, wait, where does that put me on this line of the spectrum? You know what I mean? I found it seems like more and more, when you go out for a speaking gig and you talk to a lot of people, and there's some that maybe deemed this or some maybe deemed that, but most people are closer towards the middle of things, more independent, what do you say? For sure. And remember, I'm in New York, you've kind of been programmed here

to lean left, and I don't, honestly, I don't care. To me, to me, it literally my entire flat, the only reason that I even classify as, and I, the reason that I say more conservative today, because like today's standards, I lean conservative, but I, I don't like to view myself that way, like, I'm an American. Like, literally, my values are, you know, my, my kids, my broader family, my God, my country, my friends, like those are the five things that I care about. I literally don't

care about the other things. However, one value that I have that I refuse to set aside is I live in reality. So I cannot, I cannot abide methodologies that have no historical backing for success.

Like, like, I got one of my buddies always gives me crap, because if you follow me on X, I rail,

like to an, I'm not sure to extend against socialism and communism. I just think that this is the cancer of our day. And unfortunately, like seemingly has to happen, since this idea has been brought into existence, we're in a cycle where once again, people are starting to believe like this, philosophy works. It is killed more human beings than all diseases combined. It's killed more human beings than all wars combined. Like, we're talking about hundreds of millions of humans that have

died from one single philosophy. And with no results, like, there's no country that you can point at and say they're doing well using this philosophy yet we're supposed to believe that it has merit.

go, well, you're a Christian, you believe in God. I don't care if you believe in God. And I've had moments in my 45 years in which I have struggled with my connection with God for different things

of happen. However, what I have always believed is that the Bible, including the Old Testament,

so today, a Christian text, is the guidebook, the number one best self-enprovement book that has ever been written. You do not have to believe that there's a God with sandals and a white dress sitting in the, you know, sitting in the clouds looking down on us, like pulling the strings to read that book and the lessons inside it and not have your life get better. Like, it is deep. So take God out of

“it if you need to. I don't need you to believe in God. I do, but you don't need to. There's no context”

for our friendship or our relationship that you believe in God. However, you have to respect at least in your relationship with me that I believe it's the best self-enprovement book that's ever been written.

So that's kind of where my thoughts I think more maybe it's based on what's around me, but I think

more people believe with both of those things that you just said. Then I think the overwhelming majority agree with both of those things. If you, if you live in reality, if you actually are curious, if you read, I think the majority of Americans of humans, yeah, they're on board with both of those things, but sometimes the minority of people who at least claim they believe, whatever if you're talking about socialism, communism, any of that, they're just loud and they get amplified on certain

social media platforms or you see them maybe based on where you live, that is like, do people really think this? Like, are they really thinking this? And I feel like the majority are do not, but yeah, if you're out in the dating world and maybe you see on a date, it probably, what do you do? Like,

“have you gone on a date with somebody and that comes up? Oh my god, do we just leave or what happens?”

I actually, I went on a couple of dates with this woman again. This is more than a year and a half ago now because I've been seeing someone for a long time who is fantastic if she's listening your fantastic. So we go out, she wants to go hit golf balls, right? She's like, hey, let's go hit golf balls.

Let's go. Great first date. Let's go. Sounds awesome. So we go. And we start talking and like,

she makes a comment about our governor, Kathy Holtz, I don't know where it comes from, did I the Kathy Holtz? Kathy Holtz is a leftist, she's completely vapid. She has an original thought on her entire life and I can, you know what I mean? You just see it in the way her, she pattern breaks and just chases trends. I mean literally she will turn on a dime, you know, if there are monies there. And now that I have my own opinions on her, anything. But I just said,

“I just said, well, you know, that's not working. You know, because if you look at the numbers,”

New York now officially is the number one net loser of both companies and residents of any state. They've now officially outpaste both. Yeah, they've officially outpaste California and Illinois, California was leading the charge. New York has taken over. So New York and is losing the most businesses and the most residents of any state in the country. Just in the last year, we've lost 900 businesses with 80% of those going to North Carolina

Texas in Florida. So corning, which was one of the largest companies in the entire state, just decided to change putting a 4,000, 4,000 job extension to one of their plants south of Buffalo. They literally this week just changed to North Carolina. They're going to split it up between North Carolina and Texas because of the business environment in the state. So by that measure, she's not doing a very good job, right? Like, I don't, I mean, I don't know what other measures there are, but if everyone's

leaving, it seems like probably not the best job. And so when I brought that start up, it was like I had bent over and farted right in her face. It was over from that point on. All right, have a nice day. See you. Yeah, it was kind of like this. We awkwardly finished our bucket of balls and then like it was this very weird like kind of like side shoulder hug thing and then no, no, nothing else after that. Got you. Okay, I'm just curious. I'm not better than that

world in a while. So I'm just curious how it goes. I know I'm sure they're good days and not as not so good days, but it seems like you're good now. Proud dating is the worst. It is the worst. I, you know, I just, and it's the worst form in two. I don't mean that like it's one side. It's the worst for everybody because what doesn't happen anymore is like you have somebody that you know that you think is great and and you're like, hey, I got this buddy, you know, he's cool, like you

little and I'm sure everyone in the comments will be like, I was referred to my whatever,

“that really doesn't happen that much anymore. Like mostly you have to go on the apps because”

even if you try to approach a woman and I get this from them. Like, this is not it. If I was woman, I would probably be like this too. Like, I wouldn't public. They don't want to be approached. They, and even if they do, the general stance is very standoffish. It's very, you know, I'm not here for you to come over and try to hit on me kind of thing, right? Which I also, I completely understand, like women should be able to go out, go on their day and not have to

constantly be hit on by men. Like, I'm not trying to knock that. So you have to use the apps. Well, the apps are brutal. They're also optimized for you to not meet the perfect person because if you meet the perfect person, you don't come back, right? So this is, this actually came out about a year or so ago. I saw this. It was right before I met the woman that I'm dating now. So maybe more than a year than was this, this story that came out that someone found that the

algorithms are actually optimizing for people that are slightly off of what they think are a perfect. So it's a good date, but it's not the best date because then you come back again, which is like, oh my God, we can't trust anybody. But yeah, dude, it's just like this awkward, and then you have everybody, especially in your 40s, like everybody's got baggage, you know what I mean? Like, we all do, we all have kids, or exes, or this thing, or this thing

happened, and it's just, man, if you found your lifelong person in your 20s, God bless you, you have hit the lotto, hold on to that person for everything you have, fight for the relationship if there's even an ounce of love there because a grant, no matter what your buddies tell you, or what social media looks like, the grass is not greener. I feel like I may have gotten lucky in the woman that I'm seeing now, but dude, it was four plus years of like, you know,

you go on a couple of dates, then it falls apart, then you never hear from the person, or you start

to get to know them, and all of a sudden you realize they've been, I learned this term called love bombing. I had no idea what this was, and I did this woman for like six months, and for the first, like four months, I'm like, oh my God, I'm going to marry this woman, like she's amazing, like we get along so great, we love the same thing, she's into fitness, she's into business, like this is awesome, and then literally at the four month mark, like this switch flipped,

and all of a sudden I was like, who is this person? A couple of my coach baseball, and she had come to a couple of the baseball games for my son to watch, and we're just probably mistakes, he's probably a little early, but, and all of the moms are like, oh yeah, she was love bombing you, we thought you knew, and I'm like, how would I know what love bombing is? So this is where, and many women do this again,

“not just women, where essentially you just act like the person is God's gift to the earth, right?”

Everything is amazing, everything they say is amazing, everything's amazing, everything's amazing, but you're seeing, you're not really showing who you are to try to suck them in, and then once you get them on the hook, you start showing them your real personality, hoping at that point, you've got them far enough along the path that they don't leave you. That's some messed up psychological stuff that you can't wait to do, I don't know about that, that sounds wild, that's

wild, that's wild, that's wild, that's wild, I could do hours on the dating scene, I mean, we're out of here to talk to you, sorry, okay, oh my god, so let's just say, using dating apps is not one of the compounding practices to high performance. Let's just say, let's just say,

got you, okay, okay, I've never, yeah, I've never had the opportunity, I guess I'm glad that I don't.

No, dude, it'd be glad, be glad, you know, if you're with someone you don't like and it's not working, even though I am a Catholic, I do think divorce is a healthy option and many in some situations, you know, if you're not running towards it, if you're working at it and it just doesn't work,

“I think that it can be a very healthy option for everybody. I do think your kids can be fine,”

if you're due with the right way, if you're communicate with them, you know, that kind of stuff. But the grass is, the grass isn't necessarily greener, it could be, but it's not this, like, you're running around, like my buddies are below, oh, oh come, you're not yourself, they're like doing 25-year-olds, I'm like, 'cause I'm 44 and I don't want to date a 25-year-old, because I've literally nothing to talk to that human about, like I want someone to understand the stuff that I'm dealing with,

you know what I mean? Like, having kids and work and, you know, aches and pains in your knees when you wake up, 'cause you play college sports, you know, I mean, like, you know, like, why do I have to take two aspirin every now, it's just, I don't know, it's a wild world, but getting this podcast back on track, most recent book, the price of becoming, right? Like, one, what, I just finishing up our conversation

bedrock trait, but like, where does it fall? Where does curiosity and particular fall in the hierarchy? And then, what are some of the easy, everyone's looking for easy wins? And I like, I like starting with

easy wins because they're never actually easy, but what are some of those, where do we fall with

curiosity and then take us into some of those places where people can start to, where high

“performance can feel accessible? I guess, that's what I'm trying to get to is, is not necessarily”

easy, but accessibility of high performance. Okay, I love, um, so the whole idea of this, the idea of compounding, it comes from, uh, Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett. And one of my favorite Charlie Munger quotes, there's lots of them, is this idea of going to bed a little bit riser than you were when you woke up. And I love prompts, I'm a prompt, I've been writer, I prompt, I've been thinker, I love Q&A sessions during Q&A, it's all that stuff. And so one question, I think

that, that I, I think is, is worth it to ask yourself if you're trying to work this curiosity muscle

at the end of every single day is what specifically did I do today to go to bed a little bit riser than I was when I woke up and then write down whatever it is that you did and know that you're going to be asking yourself this question at the end of every day and that you're

“going to need to write something down. And so what I think this does is it works as a forcing”

function to go out into the world and be curious, be curious about people, be curious about ideas, be curious about anything. You read a book, you read an article, you talk to a person who's an expert on something, you met with a mentor, you went on a date, like whatever it is, what did I do today to go to bed a little bit riser than I was when I woke up? And so prompts to me at least really help drive my decision making, they help drive my behavior. And I've seen when you stack

day after day after day after day, then it compounds just like money has for warm buffered who's made the bulk of his money after the age of 60 because of the power of compounding. And so try to implement those portable lessons from those guys when it comes to business and money but implement that into your actual life. And in this case, we're talking about being more curious. So what's the prompt that you know you're going to ask yourself at the end of each day

to work as a forcing function so that you go out and actually live it and do it? And that's that's the one for me. What am I going to do to or what did I do today to go to bed a little bit riser than I was when I woke up? And then stack days, man, day after day after day. And again, I like your chances for developing that skill, that muscle of being curious, of learning, of being of improving a little bit. And then the power of compounding takes over as it goes as long as you're

consistent for years. And that's part of the part that's not as easy is it takes a long time. And it also takes consistency over the course of a long time. And that is what most people don't want to do. Because time we don't have patience or like you said, we have ADHD, like a lot of us,

that's that's that's that's very real. And so the power of compounding is is super super powerful

but it does take consistency in a takes time. So it's almost like you're thinking about your mind, like a bank account. Like like I make it the posit every day. It's a small deposit. It's just one thing that I learned that that added a little knowledge to me or a little insight. And the idea is that over time, as we do this every day, maybe some of those ideas start to stack on top of each other. Or we see a connection between two ideas that weren't there before. But if we're not doing it every

day, then that value, that capital, right, thinking about a bank account is not there to begin with. So how do you create the consistency? Because and I'm going to leave you with this, that there is this interview with Kobe Bryant that haunts me. Because I have a very loud internal voice, which I know isn't me. If you read the untethered soul, but it's very loud. And it constantly wants me to negotiate with myself. Yeah, you said you do that every day. But come on, man, like you're

a little tired today. Or you know, you don't have to read today. You read yesterday. You're good.

“How do we not let that voice talk us out of this thing that we committed to?”

I think it is a daily fist fight to suffocate excuses. My friend Garen Stokes shares this poem about excuses with me all the time. And one of the opening lines of that poem is

Thinking of that line kills me. Any excuse, softens the character. We all have excuses. We all

make them all the time. But if you make a commitment to yourself that you're going to do something, making an excuse, softens the character and that hurts. And so I think about that. So that's one thing of thinking of excuses as the fact that they're softening your character. And I just cannot live with myself of them. I'm going to be softening my character every day. Also, the prompts, you're going to have these prompts that you're going to commit to asking yourself

the end of the day. I think it's just imperative to do it, to be consistent to do it. Another thing that could be really helpful, especially for all of us, we all need this, is who are the people in your life who are your truth tellers, the ones who are willing and able

to say, Ryan, dude, that's not it, man. Like, we made a commitment to do this. We're going to get

up at this time. We're going to do this thing. We said, we're going to do this. Let's go, dude, you're not doing it. I think we all need teammates. We all need truth tellers. We all need those that those foxhole people that are willing to tell you the truth and let, you know, if you're becoming, your ego's getting too big or becoming too full, we need that, especially as you're

“fame is rising. It's even more important. I think to have to maintain awareness because you,”

you've seen this with people who've gained fame. It's super easy for them to lose awareness of the world because the truth tellers, they don't let them in their, they kick them out of their life or they aren't intentional about surrounding themselves. So when it comes to making commitments, when it comes to being consistent, to me, it's very helpful that I have the truth tellers who are willing to say, dude, that's not it, man. That's not what we talked about. That's not what you said

your values are. That's not what you said how you want to live. And it may sting. It may hurt when I get told that information, but they're gold. They're gold. I love those people. Even if in the moment, I hate them. I love them, though, longer term because they're going to make me better. And I try my best to be that for them, too. So yeah, I think it's a combination of making commitments, having end of the day prompts and then surrounding yourself with truth tellers who care and love

you enough to tell you the truth, especially when you're off track. How do you deal with ego as it relates to a truth teller in your life, giving you feedback that you just simply do not want to hear? Because there no matter how open we are, right? Sometimes some people say something, and a lot of times it's because you know it's true, right? And your ego just rises up. And how do you deal with that person? Because if we allow that ego to stay in controlled, then we don't

internalize the feedback that we're getting, that we need, that are that we've, we've assigned this person as a truth teller life. They're giving us what we asked them to give us. And now our ego is fighting that thing. How do you work through the ego in your own life and making sure you're staying aware and open and humble to accepting what these truth tellers give you? Tard. With that said, I think it's worth it to ask the question, are they right or is part of what they're

saying right? And maybe, and this is a conversation to have my wife when we go on walks every night, if I get some critical feedback from one of those people, even if initially I think they're stupid and they're wrong. And that's mostly my ego talking. I still will say, hey, I got this feedback. Are they right? Is there a chance that they're right or is there a chance that part of this is correct? And then we, you know, we talked through that and have conversations about that feedback. The

“other thing that's really, really important, I think is I've had a, you probably had a boss.”

I don't know if you haven't had like a corporate America job, but like I've had corporate America jobs at it for 12 years. And I'd have a boss that would say, oh, give me all the feet back guys. You know, I won't it give it to me. Give it to me. I'm trying to get better. I want to be

better. And then the second you give them actual critical feedback that may sting them a little bit.

They just blame or they complain or they get super defensive. And what is that leader telling you in that moment? They're telling you, I don't want any feedback. I can't handle any feedback. And so I think of that as me being in that position now and if someone gives me feedback, if I immediately get defensive or say, you're wrong or I explain, oh, you don't understand this part of it. And so you're actually wrong. If I do that, what if I train that person to do? I've told them, I can't take it. I can't handle

this. I don't actually want feedback. My, my actions are not following what I told you that I want and so what is that person going to do? Ryan can handle it. I'm not going to give him any feedback

“anymore. That's, that's what they're going to do. And so to me, I'm, you know, you're, you're athletic”

guy, you're, you're in sports, same growing up. Every single repetition as a quarterback when I played

on film. Obviously every game, a rep is on film. And we are being coached, given a plus minus double plus

double minus on every single repetition of my life, right? And so I try to think of that same element of, I like being coached. I like getting feedback. I like trying to see that even when it's things, and certainly as a football player, and as a quarterback, you take sacks, you throw pick sixes, you have all these bad things. You're going to get coached. It's going to be really,

“really hard. You're going to be embarrassed in front of all of your teammates. It's tough. But I think”

that's made me better. And I try to take that same approach to life now off of the field. Even though it's things sometimes is, hey, I need it. I want it. And it's really important of how I respond when I get it that I don't send the message to the other person. I can handle this. I'm not tough enough

or I said I wanted it, but I actually don't. My actions are showing that I don't. So I think

feedback is a really important as a leader to think about how are you receiving it? And what is what's the body language, where the words, what are your actions showing the other person, when they have the guts and the love and the care to actually give it to you? Yeah, and for the people who are kind of still coming up, I mean, there is nothing more intoxicating as a leader than someone who's coachable. When you see someone who's coachable, you literally will almost disregard

wherever they are on the spectrum of current talent, skill, experience. If you're like, I can tell this person or give this person guidance and they'll actually execute it, you will over index on that person a hundred times over, then the person who comes in with maybe a nice resume and some

“experience, but you know, doesn't want to listen to what you have to say or things they know better.”

And you know, that was actually, it's actually funny, my own business that in terms of these, we were talking about, I found this. I hired a lot of moms with young kids or single moms, because in the insurance industry, very traditional, if you can't time stamp in 830 to 430, they don't want you. So these women we either get marginalized or shoved right out of these agencies, even though they're incredibly talented. And what I found is, when I went pound for pound,

these women who had predominantly been just customer service, not sales, I think they just but they were customer service, not sales. And I put them in sales positions, but they were open to it, right? They wanted to make more money. They wanted that sale versus the producers that I would hire that I had to pay more money for that I had to extract from some of their agency and bring them in. They would beat them nine out of ten times because the producer coming in thought they knew everything.

And these women were just like, I want to make more money. This is an opportunity. Whenever you tell me, I need to do to make more money, I'll do it, right? And it's like, so all of the sudden, it was like a big joke, because the producers tended to be more male. Maybe like, are you like the ladies better? And I'm like, I like the ladies better because they're not jackasses who don't listen and just do shit their own way and underperform.

Like, they're beating you because they worked the system, right? And it's, so it's like almost like we're, we're just so willing to shoot ourselves in the foot because of our own ego, like our own, you know, I want to walk around like I'm the, you know, I'm the man. And it's like, no one I know who is a successful over the long term is closed off to feedback.

Nobody. Short term success. 100% possible. Long term success. I have never met one in my life.

This is why I loved, again, this may not be the right thing to say. And I'd set it and have issues with HR at times. I loved people who played team sports and people from our military because they're getting coached all the time. People from the military have to work together. In some cases, it's life or death and they are side by side with teammates and they got to be there for one at one another. So they're great teammates and they're, they're coachable. They're getting feedback

constantly and it's life or death team sports. It's not life or death, but they're getting feedback constantly and they need to learn how to work together with others from diverse backgrounds in some cases of people who are completely different from them and they all find a way.

“That's why the locker room is so beautiful because you get these people from all over the world”

and they come together with a common goal and they get coached and they get feedback all the time. They get caught out in front of each other all the time and they got to be able to handle that and keep going and keep going. They face adversity all the time and they got to keep going. And so to me, I probably over indexed that in some cases too much, but if you play team sports, I don't care, guy, girl, whatever. If you were serving our country, I'm already going to

you're going to get an interview with me for sure. Then I'm, yeah, I don't know. I have done really well when I've, when I've hired people who did those two things. Yeah, I know that there's been the last like 10, 15 years. There's been a big HR movement. I also don't think HR departments should

humans in those positions. But I do think that that department in particular has destroyed and or throttled more companies than any other department in any organization. I couldn't, I couldn't agree more to you, man. Like, there is absolutely, like, because it's even in the sport, you know, take out, take out the, the the real death possibility of being in the military, and maybe just

say, they're, you know, never in that type of situation, either way, there's still, you have an

ego death every day. And that to me is what's important. It's, if you have never, and this is, we have an entire, unfortunately, we have a, we've a, we've a decently sized segment of multiple generations now that have literally never experienced failure. Even when they've lost, it wasn't a failure. It was a, well, you tried hard, right? Well, you participated. Well, you were this. Well, you were, and, and I know that that seems mean, but it's real. And I'll tell you, I see it in the kids, I coach my

son's travel baseball team. I see it every day. There are kids who grow up in households, or there are teams of kids from certain towns that no matter what they do, when loser draw, play well, play

not, everything's amazing, everything's great. And I'm not saying we should be like, you know,

tearing these kids apart, but the kid needs to experience what failure is like, if you lose the

“game, you should not get the trophy. You shouldn't, right? Like, like, like, you should not get the”

trophy. You didn't win. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. It doesn't mean that you're not valuable as a human being to the world. And it doesn't mean you won't win the next tournament. But you did not win this one. And that ego death is so incredibly important. I think for our evolution into adulthood and into if we, if we ever want to be successful someday, because if you're doing something worth doing, you are going to lose a lot. And you're going to get the crappy out of you. And people are

going to talk crap about you. And people are going to undercut you. And people are going to do, you know,

disappoint you. And none of those things are unnatural. The way the world works. And if you've never

experienced loss, you look at, you know, somebody coming to your company and then leaving in three months. And you take that as some personal head. And oh, my God. And you're not on a handle that. Or someone says no to you for a big sale. Or someone doesn't want you to be the speaker at their event. And they choose someone else. And now you literally can't handle it. And now you start looking for reasons to blame them. There are, you know, just insert whatever it works best for you. And now

now you have a way of excusing your way out of the fact that you just weren't good enough for that thing.

“And I believe that we need those ego deaths. We need that. It's crucial to our development”

and our resilience. Completely agree. So why love team sports? One of my daughters plays volleyball and I love girls volleyball because you they lose all the time. I mean, they play sets to 25. And so that it's not uncommon to go five sets. Think about how many points you've lost. If they win the set 25, 23, and maybe they lost two of those sets to go to five sets, there is an amazing amount of losing and having to respond immediately from that adversity of, I got blocked. Or

I lost the, I made a mistake or that girl just crushed it on my head. They have to immediately be ready for the next play. Okay. Next, let's go. Let's go. Like this next play, next point mentality, that's such a portable lesson for life in general. You get the adversity. How do you respond? And I, so anyways, we can practice that. We can manufacture hardship is so important for all of us. Definitely for kids, but for all of us of what are you doing to, we love my, my wife and I love

to go hiking. Like it's, we're choosing to do something that is we're just in Colton, Bullwerke, Colorado. It's at altitude. We don't have these high hikes. I'm sitting here sounding like, I'm way out of shape because I'm breathing so loud because it's hard. But that's the point.

“Man, that's the point of choosing these harder things because that adversity, I think,”

as you call it, it gives you those ego deaths. Oh my god, I'm kind of embarrassed, but this is good for me. This is good for me to go through this stuff. It's making me better. So yeah, whatever it is that we're doing for kids, yourself finding ways to do the tough thing and then keep fighting through what I think is a way to hopefully go to bed again a little bit better than you were when you woke up. Ryan, dude, I want to, I want to be respectful of your time and that of the audience is

before we leave, what would you consider your easy mode? Just knowing what you know about the topic now? What would be, what would be that thing for you? Oh my gosh, man, I, um, I don't know

just my youngest daughter soccer games. You know, I feel like I've gotten to know the parents

“really, really well and that's just because I'm interested in them and their stories because we're”

lucky to have like great parents and really good kids and our coach is good. And so I just kind of show up and all this and we got a new player this year. Okay, let me learn about her mom and her dad

and, and I, I don't know, I feel like it's, it's built really fun and nice, enjoyable relationship

swarming beyond just getting to watch her compete and lose and have to come back and fight back from that, which is great. And so maybe that comes a little bit more natural people have made comments about that, maybe behind my back they, they make fun of me. I don't know, but I, but I have that, that gets brought up to my wife from time to time. So I think it should become more natural, more normal is just to try to learn about people and understand them and that, that builds

“relationships and again, that's what life is all about is really about relationships that you can”

build every opportunity, everything you do in life comes through people. Let's try to get to know people curiosity as my love language. So to me, it seems to be the theme of our conversation today, but that, I would say that's something that's become much more normal and like default setting without even thinking that that just kind of happens. I love it. The book is the price of

“becoming the compounding practices of high performance. Guys, I highly recommend that you subscribe”

to the Mont, Mindful Mondays newsletter that you have phenomenal. I'm a subscriber. Besides the website, learningleader.com anywhere else where people should go to check you out, follow along with your journey. I appreciate you, dude. That's that's mainly at learningleader.com. That's the name of the podcast learning leader show and, you know, the price of the coming to the next book. So really appreciate you. Yeah, man, Sharon and, and showing up, ready to have a fun conversation today.

It was, it was great. It was great. It was like a super raw and real and that's not always,

not always what happens on these things. So I really appreciate it, man. Well, I appreciate you coming along for the journey, my friend. We're out of here, folks. Thank you, out of here, PUSH!