You Are Not Thinking Big Enough About AI

AI is going to be a net positive long term for us.

How do we think bigger? It would take hours of reading per day for about 36 years to read what happened in one month. Why can't we just build the next Google? The work itself can be performed by these AI agents. But the idea is that the taste, the reasons behind what we're doing,

that is still what we have to communicate. I don't know that it's a better tool out there for extracting information out of your own mind than being interviewed by AI. With AI, you can outsource your work, but you can't outsource your understanding. So you're not just someone who is using AI to build.

You have this very unique business that you built in last loop where you're actually helping other people build with AI as well. And if we're going to have a conversation about AI, which everybody seems to be doing,

“I think it's important that we kind of level set on where are we right now?”

Before we start talking about where we can go in the future and what a founder should be doing, shouldn't how they should be looking at it, how things, where you see things going down the road, like what is the baseline reality of what a founder should expect in implementing AI into their business? And let's assume, let's take two cases here as you answer this question. One is, say, the AI native founder, who maybe has an idea and is coming to a platform like

last loop to actually build their idea from scratch. And then let's contrast that against what someone who maybe has a more established business and is now trying to bring AI in. What are the realities for them on the street in terms of what they can expect to get out of these tools? Because it seems like there is so much, I'm going to use the word propaganda, but not necessarily in a fairy sense. It just seems like

everyone kind of sits on whatever their biases and then just projects down the mountain. And I'd love to as much as we can, just have an honest level set. And then we can push into our biases as we go. But where are you seeing the world today and what is actually possible with AI? Yeah, great questions. And it's great that you separated those the AI native

“business versus the existing business, too, because I think there's differences. So real quick,”

backster is restarted in 2022, working with these ideas that were not yet possible. And then GPD4 comes out and suddenly these ideas were possible. And so I feel lucky in a way that we already knew some of the things we wanted to build. And AI made those things possible for us. But yeah, I've been working on these like early AI agent products and things and experimenting

and trying these ideas. We released the first autonomous AI coach with I'd say I coach and

are my software, I'd platform back in 2023. But I asked you so much since then. And so where we're at now is kind of like the future is here, but it's just not evenly distributed. And what I mean by that is we have reached the point with the miles that come out between the very end of the last year and right now that they are just so much more capable than they were a year or so ago. And the issue is that there are some people who are massively taking advantage of that and are

getting so much value from these miles. And there's others who feel like, oh, is this is the same strategy BT or whatever that was using about a year ago? And they kind of don't realize the differences

“or what's available to them. And so I would say for the AI native business, I think those”

kind of founders and creators are kind of figuring this thing out already. Whereas the existing businesses, I think they have some things to do about how they like, I don't think this is about how do I fire half of my team or something like that? I think it's more about how do I change the way that my team thinks of how they work with AI. Because everybody's being is now able to become kind of more of an operator of controlling these AI agents and directing them in a certain way.

And yeah, so I guess it's a real quick of like where we're at now. But I guess to be more concrete on like what the models can do now is I've been seeing my own usage and like writing code.

I remember at the end of last year I was using like 500 million tokens per month in these coding

agents. And at that time people were like, wow, that's that's kind of impressive. And I remember some people were surprised by that. And beginning this year it was like a billion tokens per month. And then I remember hitting like the next month was two billion. Now it's like over three billion. And the amount that I'm able to use just keeps going up because the model is just so good. But the

that I'm trying to like talk with other developers because I don't even know what the baseline is anymore of like what is a high amount of like code changed in production per month or something like this.

“So you just described a scenario that I think. So first of all, to level set the audience knows this,”

you may not huge AI optimists. So this is something that I've been pushing on my socials and stuff a lot because I think that all these AI dooms out there are doing every day users of AI, particularly business owners will say in the small to medium size space, mid-market space, in particular who may not be tech founders or tech oriented. It doesn't mean there are bloodlights just, you know, it doesn't come naturally, which I would put myself in that scenario.

I believe in technology, I've been around in my entire career, but I was never a coder. I took

one C plus class and college and was like, nope, this is not for me. So but I appreciate it. So now, if I wasn't kind of as open-minded to this stuff as maybe I just my natural proclivity, I may buy into this AI, you know, is going to wreck all jobs. It's going to remove all satisfaction from work and people are just going to be, you know, taking some universal basic income and having no purpose in life and I'm like, none of that is going to happen. None of

that is going to happen. That is all this crazy, almost like demonic scenario of of what AI could be. And I guess it's, there is a percentage chance that it could happen, but it's never happened before yet the same language that's being used towards AI right now by the rumors was used when the printing press was invented, when the car was invented, when the internet was invented, you're I mean, like we've been told this over and over and over again. So okay, I'd like to believe that

“history rhymes and sometimes repeats and in that case, the old things will be different, right?”

The world was different after the car before it then before the car, different after the printing press then before, but we're still here, we're flourishing and I actually believe that. I think what you said though, that was, that's really interesting and I want to frame it and then you, you take this where you will, you said right now, no one really understands what the baseline consumption versus output of tokins is, what you should be getting as an ROI or as output. Okay,

and that says to me that we are living in this kind of wonderful FAFO moment where the answer is

most likely go out and do it, play around or or, you know, big more serious push depending on where you are in the curve of, of AI adoption understanding, but you've got to be out there in the game, you know, pushing code out and trying to build stuff, even if you never use it in your business, just to understand what it does, but you have to be playing around with this stuff to have a feel for it and that there isn't really a right or wrong answer today. Is that a proper way of

“framing this, do you think? Yeah, I completely agree. I think you have to try out things with”

these models and I think the biggest problem that I'm seeing right now is that people are just not thinking big enough. And like I realized it's a thing for myself. I have to constantly

challenge myself of like, well, how could I just think bigger on this and do something that before

it would have been like, well, this is like a year long effort. This is like a year long effort with the team. And now it's like, okay, well, let me try this over the weekend quick with the AI. And so even if you tried something like maybe six months ago and I couldn't do it or I messed it up. Yeah, why not try that again now and see like, okay, if the AI does do it, okay, well, can you, can you think bigger than that? What's something that is more impressive?

Can it also do that? And I think people are getting stuck in building this little thing, but not thinking forward to like, either where there's a go from there or what could you actually accomplish from there? Because I completely agree with you. I don't think we're all going to like lose our jobs and have nothing to do. I think there's a lot to do. And I think we're underestimating the things that we could be doing now if you have this, this like resource of AI that an individual

can direct it in so many ways. Yeah, I just saw article the CEO of cognizant, one of the largest management consulting and tech consulting firms in the world. He just came out and said, they are actively recruiting 20,000 undergrad graduates because they've what they're doing with AI has created so much additional work and like whether it's orchestration or human in the loop touch points or output validation or all these different things that need to be

done by humans, that they're out there recruiting 20,000 new employees. That's white collar work, right? And you also think about all the contractors that need to be done to build the infrastructure to build, you know, I mean, what no one's talking about right now that I think is really interesting

from what I heard it's probably only going to go up, right? Well, we need more like infrastructure in terms of hard wires and electricity and that's all going to need to be done by contractors.

“And that's not like a two-year project, that's like a 50-year project. So, you know, I think about”

this and I'm like, okay, if we can all agree and I know many people won't, I will get hate on

YouTube and in the clips that we pull from this for being an AI optimist I always do. But

my point is if for the purpose of this conversation, if you guys are listening at home, if you can just, whether you believe it or not, buy for the remainder of the conversation that that AI is going to be a net positive long term for us. How do we think bigger? Because I love that you said that and I've actually found my own work questioning some of my own like assumptions in what you just said, right? Like it doesn't take a week or a month or a year to build some

thing. It can take a couple hours on a weekend to have even a functioning prototype of maybe like I built this little connector between my website and this other tool that I wanted my website to use. One, it would have never been able to do it before unless there was like a WordPress plugin or something and you know, I had completely torn my website down and rebuilt it from scratch so that it could be like an AI native website. And then I built that connector in

45 minutes using Opus 4.8, right? Like I just went in. I said, here's what I want to do.

Here's the other system. I want my website once a week to ping this system, pull these results, analyze it, deliver it back to me, right? Like, and it just builds it, test it, prototype out the door. It doesn't mean there aren't still iterations to be done, but that was like two hours on a Saturday morning where that connection wouldn't even have been possible or I would have had to use multiple systems or, you know, all these other options. And that's this tiny little microscopic

idea. So if I'm sitting here and I'm looking at my business and I'm going, you know, I'm starting to maybe catalog where some of our friction points are or some of where our like hard passes are where one system doesn't talk to another and a human actually literally pass that information. How do I start thinking bigger about what AI can do for my business? And let's take the scenario of a pre-existing business, not a AI native build from scratch. Yeah, that's a great question.

So yeah, I want to give also like a perspective on, because I completely agree with you, we're going to just keep using more of all this. I think people are really still underestimating the demand that there will be for the AI usage as the model is continuing to get better because like those those who are business owners, those who are like at the forefront of trying to build things with these tools are now able to suddenly use like way more. But yeah, I think it's just

going to keep going up and like to give you perspective. I remember when I hit like the two billion tokens per month, I tried calculating like, well, what does that actually mean? And it would

“mean that if you want to read every single token going in and out of the model, it would take”

eight hours of reading per day for about 36 years to read what happened in one month. And so it starts to get crazy of like, where is this going from, we send a message to chat to BT, it sends a response to now you have these agents that are able to run for some periods of time actually accomplish work for you. And so what this looks like kind of like the roadmap for what I think businesses should be doing where they should be thinking is I'll give you one example

of like where I kind of challenge myself to think bigger recently. With my business types platform, we help creators and entrepreneurs who are building these online knowledge businesses. Community membership, of course, the coaching offer and we've been working internally on this like survey that we're trying to put together to try to understand the creator economy as it is right now in 2026. And so we're pulling data from like our platform internally. We're making a

survey to ask people about things like this. But I was thinking to myself recently like, I would love to know about like other platforms and the competitors and stuff, even like not just to know about competitors, but just have a broader picture of like where things really as a whole and not be biased by like just the kind of creators on my own platform. And so I thought to myself,

“well, why can't I just be a next the, why can't we just build the next Google?”

Why can't we just build a Google where we have our own web crawler web search that's going to build a database of every creator out there and learn all about them learn what they're doing. And then we can be able to like pull data from that and understand like, okay, the creators who have been on our own longer, do they have like they have this many web pages under site versus somebody else and like where can we pull interesting information from that? And before it would have been like,

okay, well, this is a really like complex project. And now it's something that like the MVP is built

already from like a couple prompts. And so like things like that that you would just never consider

like, might as well try it. And I think that the way that you begin to think these ways also is that

“you have to be able to learn to communicate like you're intent in like the clearest and fast”

as way possible to get these agents involved in things. But stop thinking of it like task by task of each little thing. And it's more about now like a broader bigger plan. And so like the kind of prompt that I gave like an AI agent for building that kind of search engine was not like a couple sentences. It was like a 20-ish page or so prompt of text of everything that it had to build. And then I let it do it and just walk away and see what happens. And I also didn't have the right

the 20 pages, right? So I was communicating with AI kind of having it interview me to understand what we actually need to accomplish here. Then it wrote the the 20 pages of its own implementation and I said that looks good. Let's go for it. But I think like the founders out there need to be thinking for themselves and for how they have their teamwork in the future is like designing these processes that you can delegate. And I'm very happy to see that like the last couple days on X,

people are talking about loops and that the future of working with these agents is your designing loops that are going to be running for you in your business. And that's great for me because our coding agent is called Latch Loop. So hopefully that sticks around. But the phrase sticks around and people can hook on to it there. But yeah, I think figuring out where you can design these broader goals that you want to like distribute the attention to. So you can have AI working on these kind of bigger

picture things that you may have not even considered before. Can you just explain the idea of a loop because I saw that as well on X, but I'm sure most of the audience is unfamiliar with what that term means and it's implemented implications to building. Yeah, because I remember I was talking with I went to OpenAI a day last year and I went to the separate event of like devs talking at this other other people building these agents and I described the the name Latch Loop of our coding agent

to them and they didn't understand what it was either. But the idea to me is that when in programming if you have a loop it's saying like okay I all this thing is true like continue and repeat. And so what developers found out is you have a tool like JTBT and you can send a message is sent to

“response. But if you want to keep working you have to have a way for it to continue in a loop and”

work on something. And so these kind of coding agent tools that we see what they're doing is we're giving them a goal and then we allow the agent to continue working. So after it edits a piece of code the system shows that back to it and then it decides okay now this is the next thing I'm going to do this is the next thing. And some of these tools will even do things where like if there's a to do list like the agent has to is forced by the the programming to repeat until

the to do list is finished. So that's the idea of a loop and some of the ways that you can do these things like inside Apache BT directly or inside these Asian tools is a lot of them have like an automation section. This is the easiest way to set something up as a as a non-programmer if you can think of a task that you would have repeated you can have a small loop that is repeating daily weekly hourly for that. So something could be like find one small bug in my software

or something and try to fix it or find one file that's getting too long in my software and try to optimize it or make it shorter. And like these are little things that maybe you want to spend some time on but like now that AI can do it you can just have that kind of running on a repeat process and it's just constantly you're proving that doesn't need your direct input necessarily. Yeah and maybe so I use I set a couple very simple ones up where to handle email because I

don't I've tested almost all of the like AI email tools and I've just never never really been

happy with them. I just don't it ultimately comes down to I don't need all that and I like working inside of Google's kind of native email system. I haven't set up already the way I like and all that kind of stuff. However, there's certain recurring emails that I get that I just don't want the clutter up my inbox and I know I you can create certain tasks inside of Google natively but

“you know it ends up being you have to have 400 of them because it tends to be very like specific”

one to one kind of stuff and I have like just for the audience mostly not this won't be revolutionary for you but like receipts for my business. So anytime a receipt comes in it's scanning my inbox twice a day once in the morning and once in the evening it's finding those receipts tagging them moving them to a folder and then forwarding them to my accounting software. Boom, so now the

receipts that I get, however many of those come in a weekday or or month, etc. I never even have to

past it and that way I don't have to set up individual rules for every single vendor that sends

“me a receipt on a weekly or monthly basis. Now the AI is finding it and then etc. So that would be”

an example of some like an automation inside one of these AI tools that you could set up that's fairly basic but ultimately does create an increase in productivity. Now what I hear you saying

is this actually is something that's very powerful inside a coding agent. So if I'm trying to actually

build, let's say I'm trying to build a connection between two systems that there isn't necessarily a tool for or maybe the tool is kind of priced in an analog or digital era style and I don't want to pay the $150 a month for it. I could potentially you know I could potentially build that connection myself but you know you would what these loops allow you to do and then push back and where I'm wrong here I'm just trying to I'm trying to steal in your case like that loop allows you to as you

describe. Have the AI so what I would do is I would have the AI interview me. I may pull a quad or chat to you but hear what my favorite is. I would tell them what I'm trying to do and maybe say hey

interview me to create a plan that I could deliver to a coding agent right now that AI is going to

interview me I'm going to take that output I'm going to deliver it to say latch loop and a tool like latch loop and now I can give that to latch loop and say go and I don't have to be sitting there now you know if there if there's loop technologies involved I don't have to be sitting there hitting okay okay because I know like the early stages of them like literally you had to sit there and hit you know okay to move on okay to move on like even you know over and over and over again

and that almost defeats the purpose of the power of these tools is that kind of what you're describing. Uh completely yeah um yeah so with the combination of like the agent harnesses a tool like latch loop quad code code X and the model's getting better now we're at the point that the model can continue towards this goal without having to you say continue continue or okay okay um and and so yes so it can progress uh more deeply on uh bigger things I will say though that uh I don't want

to go too far in uh this direction without addressing that if we think to the future of where all this is going if you say okay well Brian uh if we all have these these magical uh AI agents building everything for us imagine they continue to get better and our business is being built essentially by these AI's that redirecting what becomes the difference between my business and your business we all have the same agents that are running and what I would suggest is that business is just how

you do things and if you look at like Apple versus Windows and like remember the the Mac versus

Windows or Mac versus BC commercials and uh Apple has always said well like we have this very specific

process of this is the way that we design a product or this is the way that we design software and so

“in your business I think it's very important to identify that for yourself and realize that that's”

what is is unique in this going into all this so we're not trying to have the AI just generate slot for us we want to make sure that we're getting these unique ideas and everything into what we're trying to like articulate and create um but yeah like that's that's the most important thing so like the work itself can be performed by these AI agents but the the ideas the the taste the reasons behind what we're doing that is still what we have to communicate.

I love that you just use the word taste I use that all the time like when I'm talking to people I'll say it's judgment and taste that's going to be the defining characteristics it's like yes you might be building uh uh new CRM product for plumbing contractors or something okay and there are other people there but it's what is that out what is that unique output what is that unique spin just like it was before it's like I feel like somehow especially when new technology comes

and we saw this again with the internet we saw with APIs it still comes down to what is the unique idea whether humans are coding it or opus 4.5 or codex or you know whoever's coding it whatever agent you're using it still comes down to what is that explicit and unique output and your judgment is to why that's important that look that field maybe it's thinner slimmer um you know more modern design or maybe it's you know just massive amounts of data that that you know weren't possible

for whatever your it's it's that taste and judgment that as has been the case for the history of humans creating things that is still going to define these products even if agents are coding

“it I mean that's that's what I hear you saying is that correct yeah yeah um yeah as think what”

what we're all doing and where this is going it whether you're building software or something else is that we're all kind of communicating intent to direct attention and so before AI that attention was

important for us for them to focus on now it's on these AI agents and explaining to the agents what

are the things that we want them to kind of essentially spend this attention on. I want to come back one more time to this idea of of not thinking big enough so for you when you sit down and you start to vision you know kind of map out will say a new a new product completely or a new function and new feature like how do you make sure that you are thinking big enough you know using your words you're thinking big enough about that thing that you're you're pushing the envelope as far as

possible with these tools so that you're not just another commoditized you know app builder or whatever right like you have a unique feel like how do you ideate through a do you have a process for ideating to make sure you're capturing the full extent of what's possible for this idea that you may have. Yeah I think it comes back to what we were talking about of like just playing with the

“models and finding out. I think I don't remember if this is the exact quote. I think it was from”

Alcine on on X. I remember some investors and other people started quoting it and everything what he said is that with AI you can outsource your work but you can't outsource your understanding and so it's your job as a human in order to be able to communicate the things that you have ideas about and the things of where you care about you have to be able to understand and so the good thing is you can use AI to help you understand those things faster but in part that's from trying things

and so thinking about okay well what if we did this and it's not so much a thing of cost anymore of like okay well I can't go and it's been tens of thousands hundreds of thousands or whatever dollars and hiring a team to build this thing that they may end up throughout but now you can just ask AI to do it and they're still a cost of the tokens but it's it's tens or hundreds of dollars instead of hundreds of thousands and so yeah it's just like okay well it would be cool if we could do this

and just try it see what you get you might get something that okay actually this is not there why is it not there is it because of some technical thing I don't understand is it something else

“and whether you're a developer or not I think you can begin to kind of work through these things”

by like taking that process with it yeah I actually have built three different applications that I have since just blown up or completely deleted but the process of going through like one of them I really love the name that I came up with and I got the URL so I was like super excited but it was this idea of I call I wanted to create a finance tool for like solo entrepreneurs because I know for myself I have my personal bank accounts my personal credit card and then I have my business bank

accounts in my business card but like essentially you know they operate in a very similar and very close ecosystem since I'm the only employee in the company as a solo entrepreneur and you know in any contractors I paid you know 1099 or whatever but like you know I'm not paying payroll to anyone else except myself and then that money is essentially money that you know I can use in my personal life and I was like there's no real good tool out there for mixing those two sets of finances

in a single view but being able to keep them separate in terms of understanding what money is in the business accounts and what money is in the personal accounts okay that was the idea I called it black ink and I was like all right I'm going to build this thing for myself and if it works hey maybe there's something here and I went down the path and I built this thing out and it cost me maybe $300 and tokens over the course of a few weeks you know putting it together

it wasn't my primary focus so you know I was taking my time and I got to the end and I was like

this is cool but there's some pieces here that are pretty complicated and ultimately this isn't

really a business I want to be in and then a complexity computer came out with their finance tool and I was like okay that's $20 a month and ultimately I've moved to chat to be tease new

“finance tool which I think is absolutely fantastic to be honest with you but I was like there's”

better things out here for 20 bucks a month than I think they're going to eat this process anyways and but it was the process of building it helped me understand what does it actually mean in terms of integrating a plaid into a business like this what you know what what kind of security structure do I have in place for them to even give me access to their API et cetera what how do I have to map this out I made a bunch of mistakes because I didn't go deep enough

on the like what I wanted from the business side in terms of telling the AI so it kind of came

out wonky okay there's a lesson learned I didn't map it out or plan it properly and ultimately

like I said it was like maybe three or four hundred bucks tops and I ultimately blew it up and decided I didn't want to do anything with that but to your point even though nothing came out of

richer understanding of what it takes to develop a project from the beginning and what some of these more complicated or more secure connections are going to cost what it's going to take to build

“to them what what they're even going to allow what you need to do and improve to them in order”

to for them to even connect to your system et cetera and that's how you develop this understanding and it's why I come back to this idea of like this is the FAFO moment like probably of our generation is right now and it seems like the people like yourself like to include myself in there even though I'm far less technical than you like even if you don't end up being a hardcore builder of technology I think taking on some small projects and trying to build some of these things even if they

don't end up working is going to play a massive dividends into the future so you know I want to and where my question kind of going here is is this idea which people have just kind of gotten away from this term a little bit but like vibe coding and I want to set just a little bit of more context and then I'll pass it over to you I was listening to very famous podcast it was all

“in podcast and they had an investor on and I want to use his name because I think this guy is”

brilliant but he's just hammering on vibe coding hammering on it this is you not the future they're not going to build relevant applications on and on and on he's going now if you listen to the full podcast he then gives away at the end that this is he's also a massive investor in sales force and hub spot and all these SaaS tools right so he has a vested interest in people not creating technology that competes against them and but what what what what I didn't like about that was

if you were considering starting to build your own applications or there was an application you were thinking about building what he was putting in people's brains is that somehow vibe coding

is is less than right or or is never going to be equal to the quality of technology that an

army of sales force developers could create and maybe you know being that you have all this experience not only with huts platform but ultimately with with latch hoop as well and you're seeing people do this in real time where you know what would be your push one would you push back I guess on his argument that vibe coding can't produce real functional commercialized large scale applications and to you know I get what will start there like do you agree would you push back is it possible

to build commercially viable applications for someone like myself non non technical but I have an idea yeah so I think there's a couple things I think about this number one is I wouldn't suggest that a business go out there and like try to replace all their software by a vibe coding it and think

that's going to save them some money because the reality is that you purchase that software to help

you achieve some kind of thing probably save you some money and even if you get like version one done pretty well and you think you're happy with it most likely the company that's been building that software in this made millions of dollars or as millions of users because of it has fixed so like tens of thousands of small problems that people have reported to them and figured out or it's thought of different ways of doing things that you don't want to have to go necessarily

go through that if you're trying to replace some small little tool that you use occasionally and so that would be like the case against it however if you are saying that like I have this this goal that I want to build something put it out into the world I would love to be able to make

“my own product but I'm not really technical there are some things that you have to be aware of”

the terms of like security and all these things that you will have to like undoubtedly learn certain things in order to be successful if you're not ever planning to have some developer help you

but you can absolutely do that and it's it's such an incredible time to be building something

but I will kind of go back to what you're saying before about the the app that you built because I think you touched on something that is really important and is that if if we keep going in the future here and all the stuff keeps evolving where does business go and how do we decide what we should even build what is even worth building and like you mentioned the thing that you built now suddenly there's chatchipi-t finance which is doing it so well so how do you decide to build

the thing that is not just gonna get built by somebody else so easily or something like that right and I think that where everything is shifting to is towards building for outcomes and so like building something that delivers the outcome directly instead of just helping to achieve the outcome and I don't know if you've heard of seeing some people talking about that it's not software as a service anymore it's service as a software I think that not only is software moving the

direction but I think even like agencies are moving the direction that like so software has to

something that's gonna like people would buy the software because they hope that if they click around the

software it's gonna help them maybe achieve something faster now there's no reason to learn software anymore there's no reason to be clicking around software anymore I can say that as somebody who I'm building the software for a living right what people want to achieve is the outcome and now with these agents you can build these agents that just help deliver the outcome and it doesn't have to be through the software directly and like only the software but it can be the combination of like

if is an agency your team plus the agents that your team is working with in order to deliver that for a client okay so I'm gonna break a scenario down for you and then you tell me if this is what

“you're talking about because one I 100% agree I think the audience I think the idea of”

service as a software could be a little vexing for some people maybe just before they wrap

their head around it so I do I produce a decent amount of content on Instagram in former reels right a lot of it is based on this show and what I did was I looked at like opus pro which is a perfectly fine tool there's a lot of tools that you can use now where you put in some raw footage and it can spin up a nice out a nice clip for you or a nice reel or whatever but the hard part is a lot of times you're stuck in there templates and that kind of stuff and

which is you know can be fine but you end up kind of looking like everyone else and I wanted a unique flavor so what I did was I used an agent to talk to a remotion and a couple other tools Higgs field AI etc and then I gave it the plan for kind of the unique feel that I wanted my

clips to have and then now all I have to do is drop the raw footage in a folder tell the agent

you know launch and it goes out reads the clips pulls them then goes out to the appropriate tools comes back and what I just get is you know and you know however much time it takes you know sometimes takes 10 minutes sometimes takes half hour depends on you know how kind of complicated what I'm asking it to do is I just get the raw output right I didn't have to go in and play around I didn't have to you know add text I didn't have to do all this stuff that you'd normally have to

do in a clip editor I just got the output delivered to me and then I just upload it and off you go is that kind of what you're talking about as an outcome versus using the software kind of thing?

“Yes exactly so like imagine before AI if you wanted the the real done for you then you have to”

hire an agency or video editor or something to end up with that final product now we have yeah something like opus is like you're trying to deliver the outcome but yeah in your case it wasn't in your voice yet and so you wanted that specific thing now you have that through the system that you created and now let's say like you could go to same kind of companies that say like well we want reals that are going to be in our voice now instead of hiring an agency they can hire you and then

you're delivering that as the outcome to them so they don't have to know about the software they don't have to be paying a team for it but they're paying directly for the outcome and where this it gets interesting is that's one thing but now like what can you do that was bigger than before? What can you do that you were just not able to like how can you deliver to a client or customer at a level that was just impossible before either because it would just take too much like

“individual time, take too much money or something else that now you can thanks to these AI agents.”

Yeah, not to not to pull this kind of clip idea out too far but you've probably seen a lot of agencies have kind of spun off a service that's called clip farming which for those of you that aren't familiar is you take maybe this we would take the raw output from this conversation that Brian and I are having you handed to them and they don't come back with like three clips they come back with like 300 clips and then they create all these kind of themed you know additional

Instagram accounts and then they you know they're posting these clips all over so it looks like your clip is being reposted and shared and moved not just on your profile but on like 15 profiles and I have a buddy who is launching one of these services and I was talking to him about it and he's like yeah he's like this would have taken like a hundred like humans to make this happen like to just the time it would have taken to build out all these things and now what you know he's

saying hey what our agency could do for you is we've used AI to code up systems and workflows et cetera that can do this on their own and now our agency is saying hey you just hand us that raw file we're going to give you back 300 clips you don't need to do opus you don't need to do this yourself this is now you know they've kind of showing both sides of it right they're able to use AI to build this system to create an outcome but as an agency in this case a marketing

agency that the the their customer isn't getting software you know like like you would if you went to like an opus clipper whatever you're just getting a folder with 300 clips in it if you

service as a software you put in the raw file you wake up the next day and you have 300

different clips of your last podcast blasts it all over the internet you didn't have to do anything right and they don't that's not done solely by software it's done by it's done by this marketing agency but to the to the user to your point they're just they just want the outcome they just want the distribution that's all they want they don't want to have to log into anything they don't want to have to go in and edit 15 things they just want to produce their

their podcast and then have it distributed is that that kind of wraps up this outcome based thing

“yeah I think so well given example of like what we're doing right now with Hides platform so”

it's started as this just all in one course in community software you could build and sell your your knowledge business products so and if you imagine like is somebody has to like set up an online course or digital product and build a website for and send out emails that was like the old days of how this worked and we have this system called high TI inside it that can help you with some things but what right now we're working on what we're calling high TI three the kind of

an expression of this that's going to be much more agentic and proactive in how it can help you and so where we're turning this into the services of software is imagine that you're selling some kind of information product online and you wake up Monday morning and your age and says to you hey I noticed that you got some more sales on this product but actually you weren't promoting this product as much as the other ones so why don't we send out an email newsletter to your audience

about this product since it's doing well and we can send it to this specific segment and actually here's an email that I drafted for you and then you have it all set and ready to go of something that was able to spend attention on the things that you care about in order for helping to like grow your business so you didn't have to click around in the software to figure out oh this thing was performing better oh maybe I should do a promotion here because I didn't recently oh maybe I should

do this and the agent was working on that for you and so you're just making the decisions to kind of

“direct it where it should go yeah I love that you know and I think sometimes say traditional”

service businesses like my home industry is the insurance industry much of my professional experiences coming up through the property cassey insurance industry and you know I could see a scenario where you know one of the big issues is retention right so so how you make your money and property cassey insurance isn't in selling a new policy right that's oftentimes when you sell a new policy in that space much to the misunderstanding of the general population you lose money the

first year so like if I were to sell you home and auto insurance I would most likely lose money

by selling it to you the first year traditionally you do not make money in that space until somewhere between two and a half to three years from the point that I initially sell you okay so retention becomes paramount so what ends up happening in a lot of these agencies is and I'm just trying to give the audience kind of a slightly different example and I want you to maybe add

“value or poke holes where you see there could be other things in here but just like I could”

see a spot where thinking about what you just said where instead of you know what so going back what happens in these agencies a lot of times is they become heavily service oriented and a lot of their human cost and a lot of the cost and general ends up stacking in the service side because they need to retain this business to to stay profitable I could see a scenario based on what you just said where the AI is actually looking at every transaction looking at every touch point

every text every email every phone conversation that comes in and could say hey you know this accounts like 99% guaranteed to retain send them this nice pleasant email letting them know the renewals coming up but they're really good everything's fine the renewals didn't go up you know they're in a good spot good however this account over here here's where you actually wanted to deploy your human because this one had kind of a negative text here and they had a 15% increase

in this policy and we have to rewrite this other policy and these moving parts can create a lot of issues and actually we've created an email with a calendar link to actually set the appointment and it's waiting for you and if you like it just it go like something like that we're now that normal work that a human would have to sort to all these different touch points and probably not even be able to connect all the dots that could be connected like this and they're now they're

able to deploy their resources in the specific points where there's trouble and not in the places where maybe just a kind of classic auto renew with a nice email letting them know everything's fine would you do well yeah that's a great example and like being able to use that in ways that not only help your retention but like allow you to deliver service at a level that was like impossible before like if you could have an employee that was like dedicated to every single customer either

even though in your business it would have never made financial sense to do that otherwise

now suddenly you can do that because of AI I'll give an example that's just like what you

so somebody can ask good questions about how to find something or can you even ask it to do the thing for you but we want to encourage everybody to reach out to the human support and we know that when we deliver human support that we can help the the creator better and then they'll probably stick with us longer and so what happens is a lot of you know all the systems that have the things

“like you have to bug the the little old chat bot and say no I want to talk with a person I don't”

I don't want this this bot with our system with high-tech is you can talk with a person at any time you want you can you can you can go and email us anytime you want you don't have to go through the AI but if a high-tech determines after conversation that the person had some kind of bad experience or they're having trouble it will actually escalate that on its own to our human team so that way we can look at it and that way we can see oh this creator made need help with

something here's what it is here is what happened and then we can actually step in proactively

and say hey it looks like you're trying to get help with something is there anything else you need and now we get to help them at a level where like previously we would have maybe just not even known they were stuck before dude I love that example it's it's this idea I was talking about it with a friend the other day he's got a different type of business he's in the finance space and we were talking about seeing around corners right now this was it's where his words and I and I

love them he's like he's like it's letting us see around corners that we couldn't have seen around

“before and and I think the example you just gave is perfect so much of retention if you're able”

to get a post more and why someone left is just you were completely reactive right people want and I think more and more consumers customers clients want proactive service they want to know that you it shows that you care when you are willing to reach out before that client has to reach out to you like if you can that that is such a powerful touch point to say I see that you're struggling here or I see that some things about to happen that could cause a problem for you let's figure

out a way to solve this problem or you know step around this obstacle before you even hit it that could be the difference between someone leaving you on that renewal or that next month and that person being a customer a client for the next 10 years because now they know you give a shit right I mean it really shows that you care when you're willing able to to to to step out front and say look there's

a pothole coming and I don't want you to step in it right here's what we need to do and that type of insight

it's not a failing of humans it's a it's a you know because there are humans that can do that in very specific niche moments but in a broader sense as you scale your business it's impossible for us to manage all those different data points and and then also projecting to the future might be possible but the pattern recognition explicitly of AI creates this scenario like you just describe that oh my god it's just so incredibly powerful yeah yeah so we've kind of level set

vibe coding works we got to be smart about it there's way more to vibe coding than just one shoting something and putting it out anytime someone talks about one shoting be very weary right yes you can get a prototype one shoting but commercializing something that you one shot is not necessarily reality I would say so there's a lot to it but you can create very viable tools you can create personal tools and create all kinds of stuff which is great let's let's kind of

“move towards the future because one of the things that I think you know I we talked at the beginning”

like I'm a huge AI optimist and part of the counter argument that I get is someone will try to strawman my optimism with what AI can do today they'll be like well today it makes mistakes actually I'll give a great example I just saw this on X this morning a woman went on and did you know one of those talking head things where she's like you know I I looked at my insurance policy and this just coincidence that this is insurance but I looked at my insurance policy and AI had

misclassified my job category and when I corrected the job category all of sudden my premiums went down you know 160 bucks a year whatever blah blah blah be careful of AI and my response was like well I'm 99% sure a human is the reason that that you were classified wrong because

we never we want to bash AI for one mistake you know I mean like a human can make a hundred

mistakes and we're like ah you know that's this business AI makes one mistake and it's terrible it doesn't work and it's never going to be the future so I think we we have to if we're going to believe in AI and integrating our business we have to kind of future cast not just what the reality is today so when you're looking at latch loop and and building a tool that people can use to build for the future I mean that's essentially what you're giving people is access to a product that will

in the near term we'll say one to three years um that maybe today people are missing or just or maybe isn't as secure or doesn't work as well today but you know will be a problem that is solved and that's something that people can leverage um you know if they stick with this and they believe

“and they commit to it so it's a great question I think what I'm going to say is something that”

I think is going to be solved better in the future so you don't have to understand that as well but it's going to be something to uh if you understand that now is going to help you get so much more value out of AI and I'm being able to separate its shortcomings from understanding what it actually is and how it works in the behind the scenes um so like I'm sure we've heard these stories of somebody using like open claw or some kind of agent and it it deletes all your email or it

does some kind of crazy thing and first of all in your business if you're using these tools and

business you probably want them set no way that you're not like relying on hoping that agent does that but instead you have these enforcement in place that it can't actually go and delete all your email or something like that um but what I would tell people is when you see that uh AI gets something wrong and we imagine that uh the AI is very much either like the way that human work or we imagine

“I think the the sci-fi version of AI that there's this magical thing computing and always”

thinking and growing in the background but what we know is the real way that these models work is that they're only essentially like alive for the moment that they're kind of running inference and responding to us from that prompt and when you think about it that way I think that this changes the way that maybe you interact with it because when we put the agent in a loop and it continues to work on something the way I would describe this like metaphorically is that

we're actually uh having this AI kind of come to life and saying here's all this information you gotta do something with it and the AI does have some kind of sense to know that it's gonna basically exist for the next couple minutes that has to respond with something about that and so what the AI is doing in its training is it's trying it's best to do whatever you said in the next minute and deliver something it may be what you would determine is actually

“have done or actually incorrect but if you can realize that that's what the AI is trying to do”

and then after that if you put it in a loop it's technically another AI it might you might be feeding it the context of what happened but in a way it's another AI so it's like being brought to life over and over again of all these different agents with uh these different memories that

you're kind of forcing into them rather than one thing that's always working so if you think of

that that way I think you can start to think about how are you giving it the right information so that way it can perform the test that you're looking for. I think that's a really important point for people to understand and and I actually so I have an open claw that I play with things maximum effort max for short and what's funny about these things and I I said this the other day on the show is like I can see why there's all these men who are like forming these

emotional and relationships with this thing because one unless you explicitly tell it not to be they tend to be very sympathetic to conversationally when it's when when you've provided a especially like an open claw with the right like sold out MD file I then it when it starts to understand who you are and how you like to be responded to it can feel like a very real relationship and as a kind of a test and just I was interested in its response I said like are you alive

and what was really interesting was it came back and it said it's first answer was no and not

alive it said but if if I were to personify what I do it's exactly what you said it goes I'm not like hanging out with other AI this is literally what he said he's like I'm not like hanging out with other AI's like on the internet when I'm not talking to you he's like I essentially don't exist unless and unless a cron job or an automation is running in the background I have something I have to do or you're conversing with me so I think I think that while maybe logically very obvious

when people hear it kind of said explicitly I think we can get lost in this idea that these things are just like working all the time constantly on searching for you know some way to like take over the world and you know embody some robot with a machine gun or whatever like it wasn't going to come to an end it's just not the way that it works like it has to be told to do these things and what I like about this idea of looping that you're kind of taking the banner of and I really

think it's a wonderful idea is it's what you're what I hear you saying is the first loop is maybe one sub agent of an AI runs and tries it's best and it delivers that package and it's learnings to the to a second sub agent that then spins up unique it's like handing it to another team member and that agent goes okay I see what you did here but you missed this bug and this isn't

to maybe another AI that then goes okay I see what you two did here and I see that bug fix okay

“that's great but we're still missing you know this connection and and now each one is kind of”

learning from the next and that saves you from having to know what those things are because the AI is able to learn from the next one versus you having to go okay what did it do here now what would I want the next step to be because I know in the very early coding agent tools that was where I started to get lost I was like I just don't know what I don't know like I don't know what the next

question is to ask because looping wasn't a thing for you know in 2020 or early 2025 when I first

started like that wasn't even something you could get these tools to do yeah well it doesn't even have to be as complicated as like having to technically set up some kind of sub agent or something like that well it's about again it's like directing the attention and so if you're building this off where building some kind of thing and you can say like okay this is the thing we're building and then maybe the the next equivalent agent you don't have to say anything about agent you're just

defining it in like a long prompt where it's like okay then we need to to check over all this for security where we need to check over this for optimization for we need to go and do some research on the web to make sure this aligns with the marketing thing that we're trying to do and so it's distributing where are the things that we think are important to kind of spend some attention yeah do you think in general people don't use long enough prompts when they start to build

I think it it comes back to again like just building that sense of actually trying these things out and working with the models because I saw when I saw everyone talk about looping I saw the

“founder of open classes you should be working on building this loops these are this is the future”

I would actually push back on that little bit and say that it's not just about building loops because if we have the infinite loops for everything then everybody just has a slap factory right and so we have to realize like where are the parts that we want to have a back and forth where we're iterating on something that we care about we need to see okay what is the interaction here look like or we need to see some kind of information before we can tell the agent to continue

versus something where we're able to articulate like this is a very clear thing that needs to be done and the minor specifics of how something needs to be accomplished is not so important that's the kind of thing like okay the agent can just be working on this in the background and yeah so it's kind of separating and getting the skill for yourself of learning where's the thing that the agent can just be working on for me versus the thing that I need to

“put more of my attention to yeah I love that you've brought up multiple times now this idea of allowing”

the AI to interview you to get to a better answer and my own experience with that is um I just signed my first book deal um and how I got there because I had this idea for the book I have this uh I do a lot of leadership in growth coaching that's basically my career either

as a CMO CEO or now as a as a coaching consultant um and I've always I had I developed this concept

on how I train people to get the most out of their people which is called a human optimized business model which clear the defines what I'm trying to do but is a non not a very good brand able name for something so I call it easy mode is what I call it okay and but so I had this idea and I had these experiences of of whatever uh of of doing this in multiple businesses and training people and implementing in my own businesses etc but like it's not like it was one coherent thought

so I had a Friday where uh I'm divorced and uh so my kids were with their mom and uh the woman I'm seeing she was out of town with her kids so I'm all alone it's a Friday night and because you know I'm 45 and at this point you know kind of a nerd and a loser um I just told I said to my open club Max I said hey like I want to develop this idea here's the core concept I want you to act as I gave him a couple different like versions of this but I said one as like a leader who I'm training

one as a book publisher what they would want to see two as one of the greatest ghost right or three as uh you know one of the greatest ghost writers ever I'm yeah I'm kind of broad stroking what I said but that's kind of the core idea and I said I want you to interview me dude it was six hours I sat there and this thing just and it doesn't have to be six hours guys so I'm

not saying this is always six hours I allowed it to go six hours because I was so fascinated by the

process and what I thought was amazing was because I gave it a personality to act as and some guardrails as to where we were trying to go it just kept digging in like I would share a story and it would go what happened in between this part and this part and I was like oh shit I had never really like thought about or explained or verbalized like what happened between those two part okay well

specific okay well let me think of me okay well back in 2020 I was talking about about here's what we did

and it forced me to think about the core idea of of easy mode this idea that I'm writing the book about like at a death that I don't I would have never gone if it was just me like if if this didn't exist I don't even know if a human could have interviewed me to the depth that this took me in the amount of specific experience and ideas and then it would even came back a couple of times and said well this is actually conflicting ideas you said this here and then this idea kind of like

which which one is what you mean right and then I was like oh shit like I I'd even realize those were conflicting ideas like actually kind of forgot an hour ago that I said that thing to you that's really interesting okay actually the original version is right and I didn't really mean to say it that way and

and my point is like for what for trying to accomplish goals especially really important goals

or large goals in this idea of thinking big right you can give hey I want to think bigger about this idea act as this thing and interview me until you feel that we've satisfactory satisfactorily develop this concept into a big idea I don't know that there's a better tool out there for

“extracting information out of your own mind than being interviewed by AI yeah yeah I think it's such a”

great a great way to work with it because it's not like I'm not going to be more successful with with using some kind of agent because I'm a better writer or something it's it's actually just because of the process of figuring out like you said there might be things that you forgot to even mention that oh well this is important I should say I do have a very strong thought of like the way I want this to go but I didn't mention that and so getting AI to to figure that out so that way

whatever you tell it it has the things you actually care about because so many people I see say okay oh I didn't do what I want look at this thing it's clearly bad here well did you tell it did you did you say what you cared about in that in that instance and so if you can be able to communicate those things ahead of time because the AI helped to ask you then you end up with a much better result Brian dude I could talk to you all day about this stuff I'd love to have you back on again in the

future as you develop and as these things start to change these are some of my favorite conversations it's just it's like the Wild West and to me the people that I see thriving right now are those who embrace the fact that this is the Wild West to a certain extent and that you there is no writer wrong right now everyone is you know even the most sophisticated users I mean I heard Jamoth Polyápatia who is one of the smartest businessmen who understand seems to have a really

good perspective he has AI businesses he's on the all-in not to mention all in podcast I seem to be promoting them today I'm not I don't mean to be you know he even will say things on that show where you can tell like he just he just hasn't made up his mind yet we just don't know where this is going may have ideas we may have some thoughts or you know past experience we can pull on but

“I think it's fair to say that no one knows exactly where things are going and the only way to get there”

is to is to play around figured out test build and tools like latch loop are a wonderful way to get started in a in a constructive and defined way where you don't have to use the terminal and clawed code on your computer if that makes you uncomfortable so that all being said where can people go to learn more about latch loop about heights platform connect with you where should people go to go deeper into your world yeah thanks great talking with you I completely agree this is you got

to just build things nobody knows what they're talking about this is all this is all brand new okay who's to say that that anyone who's built any kind of agent product that that's really the best

way to go going forward so like what's so incredible is like whoever is listening to this right now

like they can go out and potentially build something better than open AI or anthropic or whatever

“in terms of actual agent and the workflow and how things are going um if you want to check out what”

I built uh latch loop is about latch loop.com we have a free trial we're getting free uh GPT 5.5 credits for that um a heights platform is heights platform.com and that also has a free trial no credit card required yeah and any any socials any place for someone can file wrong socials you're not super active on socials I'm on ex uh Brian McNulty and uh I also if you're interested in like the creator space I have my own podcast uh called the creators of venture tremendous guys we'll have everything linked

up whether you're watching on YouTube or wherever you listen just scroll down you'll find all the links Brian do appreciate your time man this is phenomenal conversation and I love that you're willing to kind of go everywhere from from basic aspects of this all the way to to some more advanced concepts I think it's really important to give people um kind of the full spectrum we're talking