Asma’s orphanages | We call her Emma Ep5

Change. Nine. Frank. [MUSIC PLAYING] Tortoise investigates.

“Oh, look, I'll drive our blue where Sam's got his coffee.”

Shookin' on!

Oh, I can't read you, there you go.

We're driving around Damascus from meetings to interviews, taking in the city. This is the new drip drip drip of Arabic caffeine that you get through with it. I love the cardamom, so I know it.

[MUSIC PLAYING] Right by this roundabout in the heart of town, I keep noticing this green netting, covering the side of a collapsed building. It turns out it's the Ministry of Defense headquarters

and the very visible aftermath of an Israeli air strike last year. Other than that, you could almost forget

that this place endured a long devastating war.

There's an energy to the city. [MUSIC PLAYING] Yes, it feels poorer and tired,

“changed from how it was when I was here last before the conflict.”

But there's also a vibrancy. This is the two series I've told you about before. It's just that these days, the darker Syria isn't hidden in underground dungeons anymore. Instead, it's just three miles east

into the suburbs of the capital, a short drive away. And it's not a gradual change. It hits you like a punch to the gut. I just goes on my non-garion. There isn't a single building.

It isn't a single building. For as far as the eye can see that has a bit of bond. One morning, our driver takes us to a suburb called Jobar. And instead of cafes and busy markets, I'm suddenly looking at something post-apocalyptic.

It's weird to finally be here and be in these towns

“whose names I was hearing all those years during the war.”

They sort of seemed like vague entities there. And now, coming here, they're real places. They're real places with real people, and the sort of the human cost of it, or just becomes all the more stark. Suburbs like this, Jobar, Caboon, Tadamon,

were for years controlled by rebels fighting the Assad regime.

It's incredible how close they got to Damascus,

to central Damascus. I just hadn't quite clocked that it was so near. The battles that went on here, they would have been within earshot of the Assad department in the Art Market Malki neighborhood,

as well as the presidential palace up on the hill. Jobar was one of the last rebel strongholds near the capital to continue fighting. Eventually, the Syrian army, with the help of their Russian allies, recaptured the area in 2018.

The entire population was evacuated. They're belongings, pillaged, and stolen. Then the state helped loot the area, taking everything of worth, even the metal from the buildings, until only the concrete shells remained.

And there is not one single human possession to be seen anywhere in this entire town. Empty concrete. Almost every wall is riddled with bullet holes, and many of the floors of apartment blocks

have pancakeed down on top of each other. Today, Jobar is completely uninhabitable. It's one thing to read about the Syrian war. It's another thing to stand in a suburb that's still scarred by it,

and realize how little distance separated the seat of power from all this devastation. The war wasn't somewhere else far away from Asma's bubble. It was right here on her doorstep. And the thing that I keep coming back to is that

this was not an equal fight. All the different groups that were fighting Asad. None of them had an air power, not a single one of them. The bombs that were falling from the sky, the helicopters and the planes, all of those

It's going to take so long for Syria to recover from this.

“When the regime took back control of Jobar,”

what was left of the 300,000 people who lived there scattered around Syria, neighbouring countries, and across Europe. It's possible to trace some of them, but others are missing. It happens in war.

People vanish. It's just that, in Syria, there are a lot of missing people. Human rights groups have consistently cited a figure of more than 150,000 missing people. But the Syrian National Commission for missing persons

has suggested the number could be double that. That means potentially hundreds of thousands of people

“whose families have no idea where they are or what happened to them.”

Or even if they're alive or dead. Among them were lots of children. It's a horror that's hard to comprehend. And that's where Asma comes back into it. Because soon after the regime collapsed in 2024,

rumors began circulating that Asma al-Assad, the first lady herself, had been involved in the disappearing of children. I'm Chloe Hadjimathou, and from tortoise Investigates in the Observer, this is "We call her Emma".

Episode 5, Asma's orphanages. On a dusty street in the suburbs of Damascus, Bissan Juman, her kids come out of their home to greet us. We're here because although Bissan didn't know Asma personally, their lives did become intertwined in a fascinating way.

Bissan's in her mid-twenties, but she's so petite that if I didn't know better, I could have mistaken her for a child. That's partly because on the day we meet, she's wearing a full nikkab, so her face is concealed. It's only her dark steel eyes I can see.

What are we setting up in her small apartment? Bissan's mother serves a sweet tea. We're all sat on cushions on the floor. On one side is me, Gary who's recording and Sarah who's interpreting, and on the other side is Bissan and her two young boys.

On-ran, the youngest is eight, and his older brother Omar is ten. They're so young, but both of them sit patiently watching over their mum,

like they never want to leave her side, and by the time I've left,

I understand why. Bissan grew up in your look on the southern edge of Damascus. For a long time, it was home to the largest Palestinian community in Syria. Even though it's often called a refugee camp, it evolved over decades into a busy neighborhood. When the revolution started in 2011, your look quickly became a central battlefield

between opposition forces and those remaining loyal to the regime. Yeah, at that point we were under siege, so there was no school, no going out, and no one could come around. Bissan's talking to us in Arabic, so we've used an Arabic-speaking actress to voice her words. There was nothing at all, so I was just looking for something new.

He was my brother's friend, and he told my brother he wanted to get married, and that he wanted me. They asked me, and I accepted. You know, just to change my reality, I didn't know anything about marriage. I was 13, and he was 20. The disparity in age is pretty shocking. Bissan was barely a teenager.

“It's important to say that this is unusual in Syria too.”

The legal minimum age for marriage is usually 18, but during the war there was a surge in these underage unions as poorer families worried about young women being left unprotected during a time of such instability. Bissan's new husband was a fighter with the main rebel

faction at the time, the free Syrian army. The couple moved north to Idlib, and Bissan had her first

child, Omar. But then her husband was shot by a regime sniper and badly injured.

which meant that Bissan was left alone, 15 years old, and pregnant for the second time.

I called my mom and I told her I was scared to give birth in Idlib. I was young, and I didn't want to do it alone while having to care for my young son Omar too. So my mom told me to come down to Damascus. Traveling south meant going through regime-controlled areas. For someone who'd been living in an opposition area, that was a risk. But Bissan felt she didn't have a choice. At least she wasn't completely alone. A couple of friends, women who were also married to rebel

fighters, were going to travel with her. We took the road from Idlib down to Homs. The whole way

we were passing through checkpoints and having our names run, but they didn't find anything on us.

Until they get to the city of Homs about halfway to Damascus, they run into a government patrol. They stopped the Biss and got on. We were sitting at the very back when they reached us, they asked for our IDs. One of the women she's travelling with pops up on the office's database are suspicious. A next thing Bissan knows, all of them are being taken off the bus and into custody. Bissan's main concern is for 18-month-old Omar

and for her unborn child. But terrifying as it is, she's sure this is just a mistake.

“She's young, she's pregnant, surely they'll let her go. Honestly, I thought that since I'd passed”

the checkpoints before that I would be fine. I was sure no one would touch me. I mean, I haven't done anything wrong. But instead, she's taken to Meserbranche in Damascus, one of the most notorious detention centers in the country, and she's put in a cell. I honestly could not believe I was in an intelligence branch. It was dark and cramped and it smelled disgusting. Really disgusting. I felt like I was suffocating. Omar had been quiet until then, but in that cell there were so many

other women. He started to get upset, but no one was allowed to talk to each other in there. I remember there was a broken window on one wall and they had covered it with a picture of Vaishar al-Assad. The poster of the president is so familiar. She's seen his image in every classroom, shop, and every living room she's ever been in. But in that dungeon, it looks surreal. I was too scared even to curse him, even in my own head. All night long, I just stared at that poster

“until I think I must have finally fallen asleep.”

In the morning, she tries to think positively. Surely they won't keep her in here with a young child, especially when she's almost ready to give birth. What she couldn't have known is that it will be almost seven years before she sees the outside world again. And most of that time, she'll be alone. All around the country, people were being rounded up and the country's detention centers and prisons were heaving. In sales barely a couple of meters across,

dozens of people were crammed in, often having to take it in turns to sit down because there wasn't enough room. Lots of them had done nothing wrong. They weren't even involved in the protests or the opposition movement. So the fact that Bishan's only crime was being married to an

opposition fighter that wasn't unique, but she was treated differently and she first noticed it

“when they began questioning her. They didn't beat me as much as the other girls. I think they”

were concerned about my pregnancy because of the prisoner exchanges. The trade in prisoners it was common that the captured families or children of rebel fighters would be exchanged for regime soldiers, prisoners of war. The children of rebels were often labelled as security cases and then they were used as bargaining chips. Back when she'd been living in idlibs surrounded by rebels, Bishan had heard about these kinds of sports. And a rebel is more likely to cave in

and comply with the regime, if it's a child on the line rather than their wives. So the regime would use their own children against them. The gods suspected that Bishan might be married to a rebel fighter so they began interrogating her and they lent on the fact that she was there with her young

he would be adopted. The officer told me we will take him and raise him better than you. You're

raising him to be a militant, a terrorist. We will raise him the way we want.

“That's what broke her in the end. She gave them the password to her phone and they found messages”

from her husband. That was enough for them to accuse her of harboring a terrorist. She and Omar were put in solitary confinement, a tiny dark damp cell with nothing to do but stare at the wall. I was just praying and sleeping and praying and sleeping. That is all I could do. Omar, I swear to God he would bang his head against the wall out of boredom. I mean, the cell was just two meters by two meters. What was he supposed to do in there?

There was a female god that was especially cruel. There was never enough food and they were constantly

hungry and when Omar would cry, she would yell at this arm. She would yell, shut him up, shut your son up and I swear to God she would bring biscuits in and sit there and eat them in front of him. Why would you do that? Show him the biscuit while he sits there crying or she would make popcorn and not turn on the kitchen fan so that everyone could smell the scent. You know how good popcorn smells. It was almost sadistic the pleasure she took into inventing not only the women in there

but also Omar who was so little he couldn't cope. When she went into labor with her second child,

Bissan was taken to hospital. Strange coincidence here but it happens to be the same hospital where

the bodies were in the photos gathered by Osama and Farid. The same hospital where Asma was treated for breast cancer right underneath the presidential palace. Throughout her labor, Bissan says the hospital staff treated her like a terrorist. She was kept handcuffed to the bed. The midwife said this is because of what you've done. You did this to yourself by becoming involved in something bigger than you. I said why do you think it's my fault? I haven't done anything. My family chose

my husband for me but she just laughed at me. I begged them to call my mother. Thankfully there were no complications with the birth and her son was born healthy. Then the same day Bissan was returned to her cramp cell. Now there were three of them in there. She made a bed for her tiny new son out of an old scarf and a nappy bag. They had around a week together until one day the hatron herself slid open and a guard's face appeared. He asked, "What is your older son's name?"

I told him and he said, "Come on get dressed." I asked, "Why?" and he said, "We've received an

“order that they want the children." I started crying. Who wants the children? Where to? And how?”

The guard explained that Oma couldn't stay there anymore. Bissan was pleading with him. I couldn't believe this was happening. I told him if he's not allowed to stay here. Can't you at least give him to my family? My family can come and take him. Where are you taking him? Bissan knew her mother would have jumped at the chance to come and get Oma. But she didn't know where Bissan was. All she knew was that her daughter had disappeared on the way down from idlib,

just another person lost in the war. The officer opened the door and said, "You can keep your baby. Just give us our Oma." Oma was unbelievably attached to me at this point. I held him in my lab and stayed glued to the corner of myself. Come on, come here. He was saying to me, "I just kept tugging Oma. But I had only given birth six days ago. I had no strength and they grabbed him from me. And they swear to God, the sound of the scream he let out when they

“yanked him away like that. I could live and die and never forget that sound. He was screaming.”

"Mommy, look if I had an eye on me." And they could hear other women screaming because they were taking other women's children too. For weeks afterwards, Bissan was so distressed by the loss of Oma. She struggled to care for her

were taking him. For more than a year, she didn't have a clue where they were. But eventually,

“Bissan would learn that her boys were being kept in orphanages. When Bissan was young,”

asthma paid a visit to her school in your book. She remembers being excited about the first lady,

this glamorous refined character who publicly presented herself as the mother of the nation. And like every other Syrian mother in the country, I have dreams for my children. I want them to be healthy. I want them to be educated. I want them to be happy. And that's not just my dreams for my own children. It's actually the dreams of over 8 million Syrian mothers. Sitting in her tiny cell, all alone, Bissan's mind wandered back to that visit by asthma to her school.

As a young girl, I was deceived into thinking that she was decent, that she visited schools,

“and, you know, that she was a humble person. But it was all just for show in the end.”

Me God never forgive her. But I was just a child then. I didn't really know who they were

until I was imprisoned. Then I saw it with my own eyes. Asma was responsible for the orphanage where my children were kept. She imprisoned children's parents and then orphaned those children. And then she would come to that orphanage on a visit in what capacity as if she were so caring. In prison, Bissan's heard rumors that asthma is involved with the orphanages her son Omar and her newborn baby are held in. She's sure that the first lady has had a hand

in deliberately keeping, not only her children from her, but lots of other children from parents who are imprisoned in detention facilities. And she believes Asma did this for a very particular reason to help the regime exert pressure on the opposition. Actually, it's easy to see how these kinds of rumors might have started. The internet's littered with photos of Asma are orphanages posing with young children on her lap.

But if there was any truth to what Bissan had heard, that Asma's involvement was more sinister, calculated, it would be extraordinary. It would mean that the mother of the nation who had modeled herself on Princess Diana was actively harming mothers and children on behalf of the state. There was one place that might tell us if there was any truth to these rumors. So we just driven to the outskirts of Damascus, the suburbs of Damascus. We're going to go and

visit an orphanage. We weren't able to get access to the specific orphanages where Bissan's children were held, but asthma seemed to be a patron of several institutions in the capital. So we called around and we managed to get ourselves invited to another place. Lahan al-hayat.

As first lady, she was meant to be looking after the poor, the children, the needy in the city,

particularly in the capital. So I'm going there to talk to the management and talk to some of the people there to see if they remember her, what they remember of her. In the car on the way there, me, Sarah and my producer, Gary, who travelled with me from London, are trying to go through what we think we know about asthma's role in the running of these institutions. Places that housed often extremely vulnerable babies and children. Do we know, I know, I mean you've said that before,

but like, do we know for sure that they ran it or was it under the ministry in the ministry is seen as part of asthma's realm? I guess let's ask the guys now, if they're hired, we're going to get there. What I need to establish is, was asthma just a patron of the orphanage,

“turning up a couple of times a year for a nice photo up, or did she actually have a hand in managing it?”

If you can hear the anxiety in my voice, it's because I've started to wonder whether there's any evidence that can prove what Bissam thinks. I can't rely on rumor. I'm worried that perhaps asthma's become a kind of bogey woman for many Syrians. Maybe her names attached to many of the

I mean, I can see that that's quite a significant road bump. The taxi driver drops us at the door of a walled compound that houses all the orphanage buildings. There are pretty murals of kids holding hands and dancing, and Sarah notices a plaque next to the main door. Right here it says right outside the line at Hayat's compound. It says the Syrian government's Minister of Social Affairs. So my understanding is the connection to asthma is because the Minister of Social Affairs usually traditionally falls

under the purview of the under the patronage of the first lady of asthma specifically.

Before ringing the bell, I need to pause to get my head straight. I don't think it's fair for us to have expected her to know what was going on in here. If all she was doing is a patron is turning up for photo ops, like does patronage mean the same and Syria that it would mean for us. Like, if Princess Diana was the patron of someone.

“I think patronage implies connection and not responsibility, but the whole time we haven't been”

saying asthma is responsible. We've been saying asthma is connected. This direct link to asthma that gives her responsibility for knowing about these crimes. That's something we haven't no one has been able to prove. I think let's just go and then find out. Yeah. Okay. What do you want to start with? So could he tell us his name? How long he's been here and what his role is here? If you can't know Mr. smuggle with this.

More to them, Al-Salumi's been managing this place since the regime fell. Marta seems to be familiar with the ill-hate al-Amy.

At first glance, he looks like the face of Syria's new government. He's got a long beard

and he's wearing a baseball cap and he looks like someone devout trying to appeal to a hip

“younger generation. He was involved with the Islamist group which ruled over an opposition”

on-clave in the northwest of the country. This is before they marched down and took control of the country from the Assad. Up there, he remembers lots of occasions when the children of rebels were used to blackmail or harass their parents. Trying to persuade them to hand themselves into the regime. And he remembers the prisonist warps. And Marta's M tells us something else. Something that answers some of the questions

I had before I came here. The Syria Trust for Development gave money to something called

Sonduka-Rajar. And that gave money to Lehanil Hayat. So they got, he says financial support, like emotional support, it just all kinds of support. Being financed by the Syria Trust for Development, one of their institutions. He also tells us that Asma appointed the two women who used to be in charge of the orphanage. They're both now under investigation by the new Syrian government. So they're not here.

But Marta says we should speak to some of the carers or mothers as they're called. He worked here when Asma was involved with this place. We would have children come to us. For example, from the secure branches, they'd call them crisis children. Anna is one of the senior mothers who's been taking care of kids here for years. We've changed her name and this isn't her voice. But she remembers that from quite early on in the

wall, they started to be an unusual influx of children into the orphanage. Some of the children who were a bit older, might talk when they felt comfortable with a caregiver or a supervisor. They might quietly say, "My dad is in prison, or they took me and my mom is currently detained," or something like that. But we didn't know why. I assumed it was for like regular crime.

“And that's why their parents were imprisoned. I never imagined for a day that they would be children”

of revolutionaries. You know, it's just so very sad. I don't know whether to believe Anna when she says she didn't know what was really happening. After all, they refer to these kids as crisis children. But I appreciate it must be uncomfortable now trying to explain your role in something as awful as holding children hostage. Not that Anna would have been able to do much to stop what was

happening. We were strictly forbidden from asking where they came from, or why they came. We couldn't ask why they were there, or where their parents were. We were just told to take these children and distribute them among the apartments. Sometimes babies who arrived at the orphanage without

intelligence services, children who often knew who they were, were also being given new names,

presumably to hide their identities from families who might come looking for them.

“And the younger ones who were too small to remember their parents were sometimes given to”

Syrian families for adoption. As for the rest of the kids, the intelligence services eventually came back for many of them and took them away. It's unclear what happened to those children after that. The orphanage just hadn't asked any questions, and that's where the trail runs cold. But Anna believes that asthma would have been aware of everything that was going on here.

Absolutely, absolutely, because you can imagine that the administration had a

direct relationship with a smart al-Assad, a direct line of contact with her. They were untouchable, that no one could even say a word to them, so you can imagine that they didn't know impossible. And do you think asthma knew? Oh 100%, she definitely knows. Definitely. She knows

“everything and knows about all the crimes. I mean 100% I am certain about this, even though I did”

not see it, but this is the reality that we are living. Anna says she knows this because she knows how the country worked and how the systems of the regime were. She claims that asthma was close to the managers she'd appointed to run this place. They were untouchable. At no one could even say a word to them. And she tells us that at some point soon after the fall of the regime, a journalist arrived at the orphanage, asking if they'd had any so-called crisis kids through their

doors. And the manager said no. And then I asked her, why did you say no? We know we have crisis kids here. And she replied, "Well, you know, I did not. I hope you're not trying to pin it on me." All throughout the war, the regime was releasing PR videos of asthma, often accompanied by this kind of dramatic music. This was one film that SOS children's villages, an international orphanage in Damascus with headquarters in Austria. It's Mother's Day, March 2024, just months before the fall

of the regime. She's standing in SOS villages wearing a floor length, royal purple open kimono, her hair tied back in a neat ponytail at her neck. She looks striking, dressed more for an opening at a gallery or a museum than a visit to an orphanage. The video cuts between shops of her smiling down at various children, stroking their hair and handing them chocolate. And she addresses the mothers or carers there. You're caring for these children, she says, building strong, close-knit

families and you're helping shape a promising bright future for the young men and women who've been entrusted to you. She tells them happy Mother's Day to you and to all the mothers of Syria. This, by the way, happens to be the very orphanage where bissands all the sun was held. Asma was there while bissang was all alone in herself without her boys. Later, SOS villages would accept that around 140 children were placed in its care by the

Syrian authorities and that they hadn't followed normal procedures in those cases. Back in 2018, a few months after her children were taken, bissand was brought before a judge. The charge against her was concealing a felony because she hadn't informed on her husband. The judge said you're a minor and anyway the criminal is your husband. You have nothing to do with it. He said he couldn't find me guilty but he also said he couldn't release me. I'd just be picked

up by the authorities again. Bissand is transferred from the interrogation centre to a juvenile detention

“centre. Remember, she's still a child at this point and then she ends up in a larger prison.”

She still has no idea what's happened to her children but her mother finally manages

to track her down and she bribes away into the prison to visit her. The minute bissand sees her, she breaks down. "I just cried and cried and cried and I told her they took my children. She asked where did they take them? I said I swear I don't know. I was just crying and seeing for God's sake. Just find out where my children are. Just look for my children for me." Her mother promises to try to track down her boys. Meanwhile, bissands now on a bigger cell with

her cellmates are in the same situation as her. They've also had their children taken away from them.

“And so, they decide to get organised. Bissand describes what they do as a mutiny. They start”

banging on the walls and the doors and refusing all food demanding to see their children. It works. They learn that their children are being kept in orphanages and within days, the children are brought to the prison on a visit. But bissands boys are brought separately because it turns out the brothers have been placed in different orphanages. Her baby is 14 months old at this point. She'd named him Wallyed but she discovers that the orphanage has changed his name to Umran.

That visit was enough to make stones weep. They brought the children in and there were so many of them. The room was full of children looking for their mothers. I scanned them one by one. Her youngest was just a couple of months old when he was taken from her. His face was still all soft beginnings. His features haven't settled into the boy he'd become. So now she finds she can't recognize him. It's distressing. The officer in charge notices and he starts laughing.

“What kind of mother doesn't know her on child he asked me. How can you not know?”

But then an older girl holding a baby came up to me and said, "Is your name bissands?" I said, "Yes, she told me this is your son."

It's so emotional finally getting to hold him. But half an hour just flies by and before she knows it,

the visits are over. Seeing her oldest Omar is no less upsetting. He's been brought from SOS villages that orphanage asthma was filmed out and as soon as bissand sees him she throws her arms around him. They'd been so close when he was taken from her. But it's been a year and now he doesn't know her anymore. I said, "Damn, it's me, your mom." And he said, "Get away from me, I don't want you, get away."

The visits painful. There is one thing to cling on to though. Bissands family now know where the boys are being held. So her mom and her sister go to the orphanages to take them home. But they won't release them. They would say they aren't here. The manager told them, "I have rules and I'll get punished if I deviate from them. I can't get into trouble with the state." Gary, can I record myself? Should I take this?

We've come back to spend a second day at the orphanage.

We've been invited into one of the flats where the children live. There's around 12 boys in here between the ages of 5 and 15. They sit around the living area quietly watching TV or playing, and when they see us, they all get up and take it in turns to shake our hands. Salama, the mother who takes care of them has been working here for more than two decades. She tells us about the children she was sent during the war and how they talked about being

with their parents in prison and that some of the older ones were distressed at having their names changed. She remembers passing this information on so it could be included in the weekly reports that were sent to Asma. And she remembers Asma visiting often and telling them she was being regularly updated about what was going on in the orphanage. What I really want to see is the paperwork here. There are ringing binders full of notes

from the years that Asma was connected to this place. Documents the new manager found here when he took over. The documents show children being brought to the orphanage by the intelligent services and they prove what the care is here have been telling us. But those intelligence officials

“were specifically ordering the orphanage to keep the presence of these children a secret.”

There was a directive there to the orphanage not to release the children to any family or anyone coming asking for them. It says not to release it to anyone without prior consent from them.

please receive her and do not turn her over to any person, whoever they may be, without our prior consent. And it's signed by the head of the branch.

“Apollo 13, Peter Wiederholen. What happened here? What?”

I was a bit concerned about Asma's direct involvement with this place but it sounded like she. On the way back to Damascus in the taxi, we're still processing everything we've learned. I was really scared that we've got this wrong and that maybe Asma wasn't that involved, especially when you saw that it was run by the ministry on the door there. So it seems likely that she knew what was going on inside the orphanage and if not she should have done.

If she didn't know, I mean we're talking about a country in which nothing, this is not a free thinking place. This is a place that's been for the last decades and decades. People have been trained to do what they think the government wants them to do. These people were operating in Asma's world and they were operating in a way that they believed

“I'm sure Asma proved of. And so because that's what it meant for Asma to be a patron of a place like this.”

And meant you were doing things that pleased the first lady. So how easy do you think it is for her to say I didn't know what was going on in that? I think it's as easy as you saying that sentence.

What I mean is how incredible do you think that it's for her to say I had no idea what was going on in that?

This is all a shock to me. I mean I think it's pretty easy considering there's no documentation that links her to this. And when you say as Asma and Asad or Beshad or Hafiz, when you say that didn't happen over and over eventually people will just say well yeah that doesn't happen.

“But it is quite easy to delineate responsibility when you don't have a paper trail.”

I guess the only real smoking gun we have is the person who was interviewed who claims that they asked Asma directly about children being brought to an orphanage by intelligence officers. I'd heard about a woman who worked at one of these orphanages and a very candid meeting she says she had with Asma. I was part of a team of journalists all digging around the story of the orphanages. A collaboration between Syrian and international journalists led by a non-profit called Lighthouse

Reports. One of those fellow journalists at the BBC World Services Eye Investigations Unit

managed to speak to this orphanage worker and this is the first time this interview's been broadcast.

We've changed her name to Moya and we've had an Arabic speaking actress read her words. Asma Al-Assad invited us to the presidential palace for Iftar during Ramadan and they served Mjaddarah, Syrian rice and lentils. It was really funny because she was telling us that she cooked Mjaddarah and she said look I eat the same things as ordinary people. I thought I mean are you kidding us? Sitting there at that table and everything and

shouldn't eat, not a single bite. Moya was abandoned as a baby and adopted by an elderly couple who both died when she was 12 so she was returned to the orphanage where she started. When she turned 18 she decided to stay on living at the institution, caring for the children there while she was getting a degree. After the war began she remembered that same influx of children would been told about in the orphanage where she worked too but she says she quickly figured out what

was going on. I understood that these were the children of detainees because one told me the

regime imposed his father and the second one told me his father was with the rebel group. That's

how I worked out what was going on but we were forbidden from photographing them and it was forbidden for anyone to visit them. At some point Moya finished studying law and she began writing a legal paper based on her experiences at the orphanage. She was quite excited about it and so one day

my thesis on children of unknown parentage and its title was going to be children of unknown

parentage between law and reality. I really wanted to shed light on this issue. Her thinking was that they could try and reunite some of the children in the orphanage with their parents. Maybe publish their photos in newspapers and share their details so they could eventually be found if any family members were looking for them and she was particularly interested in the so-called crisis children. She told me no no just talk about the main children in the orphanage and do not

mention those other children. I said why is that? She said those are the children of terrorists and that's none of your business. We know what we're doing so don't go looking for trouble.

I also suggested why don't we exempt our young men when they turn 18 they have to go to the military

“and the war is very harsh honestly and these kids have no father no mother no one at all but she”

said why shouldn't they go to the military? The state raised them and fed them they must serve. When I heard this it seemed quite shocking to me the idea that the children of rebel or opposition groups might be taken by the state and eventually raised to be soldiers to fight their own parents. I didn't feel scared while I was talking to her because she often visited as at the orphanage so I felt comfortable with her but after I went back home and I was like why was it like

that? I mean what do you mean children of terrorists? How could it be their fault? These children need to find their families why should they be registered as having unknown parentage? This was still on Maya's mind the next day when she went into work and she recounted the conversation she'd had with Asma to a colleague. They told me that was like a veiled threat and they said don't get involved in something that isn't any of your business or you'll get hurt.

So don't write that in your thesis just make it a footnote and submit it the way they want

“because she might have you arrested even if you are one of her own. Honestly I got scared. I have a”

child so I feared for my child and for my family. Asma el Asad imposed her control over all of us. Maya had believed in the Asma. She'd been encouraged by her but then she says she felt Asma was slowly freezing her out. Later preventing her from getting a government job as a lawyer. She couldn't believe how Asma had turned on her and she kept thinking Asma what happened to you? I don't understand you don't want me to work as a lawyer with you. Why?

Is it so I don't find out what you're messing with or so I don't see what you're doing? There's surely no other explanation for you trying to stuck me from being a lawyer. What Maya says suggests Asma knew what was going on in the orphanages she helped over see.

“And it lines up with what we've heard from the numerous staff at the orphanage we visited.”

What we haven't found is a document with Asma's signature on it proving on paper that she knew. What we do have is the testimony of multiple people who were there, speaking independently, all telling a similar story. Asma's father, Dr. Phawas Akra has declined to give me an interview, but he did respond to some of the allegations that I asked him to pass on to his daughter for me.

He told me that he wholly and categorically rejects the idea that Asma knew, authorised facilitated or tolerated the use of children for political purposes, or as a means of pressure against families or detainees. He said that he makes this denial as her father with the knowledge of a lifetime. And while he recognises that such knowledge can't be a substitute for evidence,

he says he's never been shown any clear compelling and independently verifiable evidence for any of these claims.

By 2020, it felt like Basha al-Assad had essentially won the war. He'd regained around 70% of the country and the rebels had all been pushed into two pockets in the north. And so now, the world entered a new reality, one in which Basha was here to stay. Slowly but surely, serious status as the north career of the Middle East began to shift, and Basha began to be accepted back into the international fold,

Asma too was enjoying a more powerful status at home.

“The serious in general are a people that are proud and they're productive.”

So 12 years of destruction has not stopped us from looking forward and thinking about the future. A portrait her begun appearing alongside her husbands behind desks in government offices, and colossal banners bearing her face hung on the sides of buildings. She even became the theme of several hip pop songs, like this one that describes her as the Jasmine of Damascus.

By December 2024, Basha had been imprisoned without her children for almost seven years.

She would see her boys on the few occasions every year when they were permitted to come for

half hour visits, and her mum would sometimes manage to get in to see her too, but her awareness of the outside world was limited to snatches that she and her cellmates would catch when they

“listen to the guards outside their door.”

When the phone were during, we would usually hear what the guards were saying. What they were talking about and what the news was. And then one day we started to hear about a rebel advance from the north. We were just gathering little bits of information. She and the other women realized there's something unusual going on.

There's a guard who occasionally engages with them and next time he opens the door, they chat to him. We asked him what the news was. And he said that rebels from Idlib were advancing. He said, if they make it south past the city of Hama, you'll be executed immediately. We fell apart and started praying to God that they wouldn't make it down here.

At some point the following evening, they suddenly realized the wing is unusually quiet. They seem to be alone, no sign of any gods. The phone rang and no one answered. It rang and rang, so we started shouting, "Hey, where are you, anyone?" But no one answered. "I was past and eventually they fall asleep.

In the morning they hear the voice of the Brigadier in charge of the prison. He came in and woke us up, knocking on the door shouting, "Get up girls, are you ready?" We asked him, "Where are we going?" He told us, "Home, where else, we couldn't believe it." Besan scared they might be preparing to execute them, but she can't see any other gods.

He opened the door for us and we walked out of the cell. He opened everything for all the women. We walked past the empty guard room, then we saw the Brigadier go to his office and start backing his things to leave. And we could see from the window that the document office was burning. The office with all our files. Outside, there were no personnel anywhere, just guns dumped on the ground.

A man on a motorbike pass his body and shout to them, "Siri is free.

It's the first time it really hits them. The Asad regime has fallen."

“"Yeah, what can I tell you? We looked at each other and said, "My god, is this even possible?”

Is it a dream? It feels like a dream. Our minds couldn't grasp what was actually happening. It was impossible to comprehend." The man on the motorbike lent her his phone and besan caught her mother. I said, "Mom, I'm standing in front of the door of the intelligence branch for God's sake. Come and get me. I was crying." Crying on the phone. Crying.

Then she and her mother go to find her boys. At some point, they'd both been transferred to the same orphanage. There was no security and we got in very easily. I didn't have my ID with me and I was worried that it would cause me problems, but the people working there were scared. They were very scared. I told them, "I'm Omar and Omar and Omarans' mother, and they called for them immediately and said, "Take them. Take them."

now that Bashar and Asma have fled, Besan is quietly repairing her life.

Then, one day, while she's scrolling on Facebook, she sees something that stops her in her tracks. The guard, that woman from the prison who had taken such sadistic pleasure in tormenting her and Omar, she's opened a hairdressing salon not far from where they live. Her picture just popped up. She had posted something and it appeared on my feet.

And I'm like, "She's just living her life. Why? I was so angry."

“The truth is that lots of people who cause pain and suffering for so many years seem to have just”

got away with it. But here's one of them right on Besan's doorstep and there's no way this woman's going to get away with it. Not if Besan can help it. Asma too seems to have escaped without consequence. When she fled in early December 2024 and took refuge in Moscow, she left behind her

a shell of a country. Half a million Syrians were dead. Another six million had become refugees

“and entire cities lay in piles of rubble. It was a far cry from the progressive modern”

country she claimed to be trying to build two decades earlier. But walking away from all that is likely to have been far more painful than you might imagine. Because it seems she may have been close to getting the top job. I've learned that Asma Alassad had grown so powerful. She was being considered as a replacement for Besan to take over a Syrians next president. That's next time on We Call Her Emma. This series is reported by me Chloe Hadjomathay.

“It's written by me and the producer Gary Marshall, with additional production by Hannah Varrell.”

The field producer and translator in Lebanon and Syria is Sarah Doddich. Our interpreter was Isha Aldres. The development producer is Jess Swimburn. The sound design is by Hannah Varrell. Our theme music is Gamo from the Syrian band Schoon. The voice actors were Hannah Joel, Sarah Mar, Sarah Akra and Majid Atamini. Port cost artwork is by Lola Williams and Eliza Buona. The executive producers are just the Corbett and Bashar Cummings. The reporting

in this episode was done in collaboration with the consortium of Syrian and international journalist led by Lighthouse reports. This podcast was supported by a grant from the Pulitzer Center. Thanks for listening to We Call Her Emma. If you'd like to listen to the rest of the series today without any adverts, just subscribe wherever you're listening now. You can also access exclusive reporting including photos and videos from our time in Syria on our website, Observer.co.uk