Actor Jon Bernthal on grit, dedication & the teacher who saved him

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This is fresh air, I'm Tanya Mosley. My guest today, John Bernthal, has spent two decades playing the kind of men you'd want to avoid, and somehow he makes you root for them anyway. This summer, he's in two major films, reprising his role as the Punisher and the upcoming Spider-Man movie, and starring in Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey.

His breakout role in 2010 was a shane on the Walking Dead, a sheriff's deputy, protecting a band of survivors from zombies until he becomes the greater threat. He won an Emmy as Mikey, the brother whose ghost haunts every episode of the bear. And this year, he starred in the Netflix hit series, his and hers, and appeared on Broadway and Dog Day after noon. Bernthal says he couldn't have predicted any of this. He grew up in Washington, D.C., a baseball player, better known for fighting the acting.

And by his own telling, he was a kid headed in the wrong direction. An acting teacher saw something in him and sent him of all places to one of the world's toughest classical theater conservatories in Russia. He returned transformed, co-founded a theater company, performed in dozens of stage productions,

and spent years grinding through sitcom guest spots and small film roles before his break finally came.

In The Odyssey, Bernthal makes his Christopher Nolan film debut, playing Minalias, King of Sparta, a few weeks into production. In the Moroccan Desert, the cash shot the Trojan Horse Sequence, one of the film's most iconic scenes. Matt Damon's character and more than a dozen warriors cram inside the belly of the horse, waiting to invade Troy. The horse sits partially submerged, and Bernthal draws the short straw, neck deep, treading and freezing water that was supposed to be heated. In word has it, as Bernthal stood their shivering, Nolan offered to pull him out, but he refused.

John Bernthal, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much for having me, it's a real honor.

“Why did you refuse to get out of that cold, freezing water?”

I don't feel like I drew the short straw at all.

I think any time that you really care about something or you believe in something, if you have the opportunity to sort of be the one to say send me first.

Let me show you what I can do. I feel like our grit and our dedication is the one thing that we have control of in this world, and I love doing this. I love that I got to work for Chris and with Chris, and if you wanted to send somebody, I wanted to be that first one, for sure. I think that's, you know, I would jump at that again. It's interesting Matt Damon said you pushing through that uncomfortable moment, I mean, like really, because it was the hardest role he said he's ever played just physically.

So to see you sit in that uncomfortable situation, actually push him to push through his discomfort, tell us a little bit about that character. And the significance of you being submerged in that water for all of that time. Look, you know, so kind of Matt to say that, but like I said, I really wouldn't have had it any other way.

“You know, when you look at that film and the experience for the folks that made it, I remember my first day arriving there.”

Just seeing the look in his eyes, he's a guy I know, he's a guy that I respect deeply. Yeah, for sure. And just, you know, the first words he said to me when I saw him on this beach with thousands of extras in Morocco, right after traveling across the world, he just said,

John, I've never seen anything like this before.

So me too, man, but if you haven't seen it, well, no one has. And I thought that on this film specifically, you know, there was a group of men that were Odysseus men that were in this journey throughout the whole piece. And a lot of them, you know, were in the background, a lot of them didn't take their helmets off for the majority of the picture. But I feel that that group of people really was the backbone of the film performance wise. They add so much. They bring so much in every day.

They are grinding and grinding and grinding and what I was so grateful for is that I really got to be a part of that group for the first month and a half. And I've been in that group in a few other films. I know what that's like. And a lot of times you're sort of in that group, you're not in that group. And if you come in sort of like I did where you have a few scenes, you usually not a part of that group. But I was so inspired by them. And to be sort of a soldier of the story and to be a grunt of the story is such an honor.

Well, you have had quite a busy few years and the other film that's coming out this summer is Spider-Man.

Wait, you said you too.

Yeah, I'm seeing it tonight too. Yeah.

So you haven't seen it fully yet. Okay, so you've played Frank Castle for 10 years. And you've been pretty protective of this particular role. Like you take up for him and all of his shortcomings as well. And you're bringing him to the Spider-Man movie, rated for kids.

“What did you or did you negotiate or refuse to let them soften when it comes to the Punisher in particular for this movie?”

Yeah, look, I think historically this is a character, you know, for the folks that don't know, it's a character whose family was killed and sort of a shootout between a bunch of different criminal figures from the underworld that and his family and children were taken from him right when he got back from fighting overseas. He's a forced recon marine and in our version, a marine radar. And it brings up so many issues. But I think beyond just sort of the spiraling, really lost of his family and how he's reacting to that.

We've really sort of delved into issues of PTSD and traumatic brain injury and the feeling with so many vets who come home, guys who were tip of the spear vets who really feel lost in wayward and don't know what to do. And you know, look, I think I've said before, I was quite trepidacious and hesitant about sort of getting into the superhero world. It wasn't something that I was looking to do wasn't something that I sought out. You know, for a few reasons, I think, you know, the guys, the folks that I've respected the most in acting some of my heroes, not that I respect the most, but a lot of my heroes sort of never went that way.

And I think times have definitely changed, but, you know, to have superpowers or to fly through the air, I just that that just never, I think the characters that I'm really interested in are enormously grounded are, I try to make them and I try to find things about them that I can deeply relate to or they take me down a path that scares me intensely. And so I have to go sort of explore that path and with the Punisher in particular. Yeah, look, I've said before, there's no way that I could begin to take on that character if I wasn't a husband and a father first, first and foremost, and to fully and, and probably understand, you know, what the feeling of loving people on this earth and happily give my life for these people on my earth on this earth.

How would it feel if these people were taken from me and so I always want, trying to live there and he's not a character looking for the light, he's not a character looking for things to get easier or for things to get better. Yet he's a human being and I think all the time with my, you know, the roles that I play, I love opportunities to turn my back on the audience and I love to sort of take it too far to try to push myself to a place or push the audience to a place where they can no longer be with this character.

But then try to win them back through showing the fragility of their heart, showing how broken hearted they are, showing how much their, how much pain they have because I do think pain is a real adhesive and I think it's the thing that really connects all of us. And so fascinating, John, because it's true that pain is the thing, but most human beings don't want to face that we kind of live our lives avoiding it and then dealing it with it when we have to. But you, in particular, seem to run towards it in every way, both physically and mentally.

And your toughness has a history. You grew up in Washington, D.C. One of three brothers you went to Sid Will Friends, the Quaker School, where presidents have sent their children.

“It's a place, it's kind of a place known for nonviolence and peace, right?”

Yeah, and by your own telling, here you were in this school in fights and always chasing the most dangerous thing in the room, it seems.

What, what did that look like? Yeah, I think, never fighting in school ever, you know, and I really think that sort of the values of that school. You know, we're really ingrained in me even if it took me years and years for them to sort of come out and really come to fruition and to really understand. And believe in them, but there's no question that, you know, when I was a young, scared, confused man, that I did. I would run into the run towards the most wild, the most dangerous.

What do you think it was? You were attracted to about it. I think it was so much like.

“I think for so many young men, it's about fear.”

It's about fear and it's about shame. There's a wonderful book that has meant so much to me.

I really suggest everybody read it, but especially, I think, young men, there's a book named "Towny" by Andre Dubu, the third.

And I do have a real relationship, I think, with danger, that I have been in some situations that you know, could have gone many ways.

“And I think to a certain point, I think that that's really important.”

I also am so grateful that I'm so far past that now. And so far beyond that now, and that mostly that I've found this work that all of the reckless abandon and sort of wild things that I got into as a young man. I can bring that same energy into my work, and hopefully, I can bring these kinds of folks. I can bring a real humanity to these kinds of folks, and through that same sort of reckless abandonment and wildness. And I think that that is, that's my favorite way of working.

So you're a young man, and you are in this school where you're learning all these wonderful things about conflict resolution. I heard you talk about there's this Quaker ritual where you all would sit in silence. And then when you had something that you needed to say, you could say it, can you describe that? Sure, I mean, it's, you know, the way that Quaker's worship is so beautiful. And, you know, there's no hierarchy in that religion.

There's no priest, there's no rabbis, there's no ministers. There's just this fundamental belief that there's that a God in everyone. And that's something again that at the time, you know, I looked at those meeting for worships as just a time to either sleep or look at girls or, you know,

“because you said in a room and it just requires everybody's silence, you know, every coach, every security guard, everybody from buildings and grounds, every teacher, every administrator, every student, you would just sit in silence together.”

And the idea is if that of God moves you, you get up and you address the congregation, whatever comes from your heart. And fundamentally believe in that. Did you ever do that? I did, I did, I only did it once. And it was actually strangely after I had gotten into an altercation outside of school and I talked about, I've never spoke about this before, but there was a man who came after my little brother on a basketball court in D.C.

And I ended up getting into an altercation with this man. And I spoke about it because I was so scared, but I ended up having this just unbelievably profound sense of sorrow for this man. And I really empathized with this man. And I really saw a lot of myself in this man at that time. And that was the only time I spoke.

And it was a profound experience because I didn't plan to speak. I didn't go in saying today, it was my day to speak and meaning for worship. It really did just hit me in the moment, which was strange for that point in my life. Your father was a corporate lawyer. And is that right?

He became that. Yeah, I first, yeah. Your grandfather, a musician, and a producer. And your mom and brothers are also powerhouses. I mean, you come from a really impressive family.

It sounds like discipline and accomplishment were a big part of the foundation of you guys.

“And how would they describe your place in the family?”

Oh boy. I was definitely the black sheep. You know, I was definitely the one who got in trouble. I was definitely the one who... You're the middle boy.

I was the middle boy. You know, both of my brothers are enormously sort of quote unquote successful. So my eldest brother, you know, a right out of college got into the news. He was a producer. I think he won four Emmys by the time he was 22.

He was the youngest producer on TV. And then he started this small firm, which it was enormously successful.

And then my little brother, who just kind of was always that way.

He was an all-American football player and played basketball at Princeton. You know, went to medical school. My wife was a ICU trauma nurse. I was living with my wife and my little brother when he was in medical school. And I was a starting struggling actor.

He was just taking odd jobs to get by. But, you know, my brother now is, you know, he's the head of oncology and orthopedics here at UCLA. Help proud your parents must be of you guys. But again, I got to tell you, my dad grew up in a split family home. You know, my parents didn't come from much.

There was never a huge illness in my house for achievement or they weren't pushing us.

You know, we lived in DC. We had an open door policy. You know, my house was the house that, you know, if you were in trouble, you came to talk to my dad. If you needed a bed, you came to my mom. You know, there were foster parents.

He took in foster kids on the alchemy of of how they did it. Was so extraordinary. And I have to tell you without it out.

I've done the least by far. And what they're most proud of is how close we are. And you know, my parents really put up with a lot with me. They really did.

“What do you think it was that that had you driving towards that danger for you as a young person?”

Because I do think it plays into the way you're able to give such a real performance of these conflicted, and violent people that you often portray. I don't know. I mean, honestly, it's a good question. You know, as a young man, I know I saw my older brother get picked on a good bit.

And I know that I sort of made a choice that that was never going to happen to me.

And I know that I was really sort of fell into sort of a natural protector role for my little brother. And then I think it just kind of got carried away. And I think that again, you know, I think never underestimate the power of fear and shame, you know. And I think you can go from somebody who's very scared into somebody who is very scary.

“And I think that that is just the sort of the natural progression of things, unfortunately, so much of the time.”

And then I think it's, you also then have a potential to go to the next place, which is, you know, you can start using that. You can come to a place where you're comfortable and you're confident and you're open to all kinds of thoughts. And there's, you're not led by fear, you're not led by shame, you're really, you become curious. And I do genuinely, believe that's where I am now. I'm really hungry and open and curious.

And I don't really try not to judge folks. And I really do see that, you know, I've found wisdom and grace and beauty in folks that a lot of people would label as some of the scariest people out there. Acting finds you, though, in a very interesting way, almost by accident. So you're this, this hellian in Washington DC, as you put it. You go to Skidmore College to play baseball.

You walk into an intro acting class as a freshman thinking that you can kind of sleep through it. And the first assignment is for you to bring something you care about and talk about it in this acting class. And you forgot, so you grab your catchers glove and you spin this story that your mother had given it to you on her deathbed. But she's alive and well.

“And do you remember how you felt after you gave this monologue and you looked around the room and you saw the responses of everybody?”

I was blown away. It was an out of body experience. I had told this story. And I knew that it took that leap to sort of jump into something.

It never dawned on me that it even mattered whether it was true or not.

And that room I knew my back was against the wall. I know I hadn't brought anything I knew it was an enormously emotive room and a level of openness with these young artists, these serious young theater artists that I was completely unfamiliar with. And I knew that I had to jump and it was no different. Honestly, then then jumping into a street fight or jumping into a football game or jumping into a situation that, okay, there's only one thing to do here. If you're sparring in boxing, okay, let's go, you just take that step and you go.

And I have for a young age been quite addicted to that step. And I knew that that step was necessary there, even though I had no idea what I was doing. And I always come back to this word, reckless abandonment. You stop thinking, you get out of your own head and you just go forward and you try to connect with something bigger. And I do remember kind of coming back to myself with tears down my eyes, with the story that I completely made up.

But then also noticing while I was telling the story, the sort of grip, the real palpable grip that I had over the other folks in the room. And I saw the emotion from them and I knew that it was something special and I knew that it was something very powerful. And your teacher, your teacher though, she saw the talent in you, but she called Bull. She knew that this was, a lot of the backers. I'm a backer, her name's right here on my wrist.

I have a tattoo. I do, it's of the Moscow Art Theatre and almost, almost name. And she saved my life, you know, I mean, she was as, you know, what I found that day with her was a level of vitality and a level of,

you know, I always sort of thought of the arts in my own sort of naive way that that it was a, it was a soft place.

It was a place of just complete acceptance and not one of rigor and discipline and real vitality.

She said, yeah, her punishment was that I had auditioned for the play, for the, for the, for the, the college, you know, production.

Our guest today is actor John Bernthal. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tony Mosley and this is fresh air. This week on here and now any time, democratic voters in Michigan sound off ahead of the big primary election on Tuesday. The average American, I don't feel like I'm voice is being heard.

Feel like a little man at the bottom of the total phone. Also, Haitian Americans in Ohio fear deportation after losing their temporary protected status. All that and more on here and now any time, listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

“Have you ever been so upset that you can't even think straight?”

When we're distressed and in high anxiety, we tend to breathe from our chest,

which is actually more hyperventilating and is the opposite of relaxing.

So we want to breathe from our belly area. This week on the life kit podcast tips for those painful, stressful moments. Listen to life kit on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you're a super fan of fresh air with Terry Gross, we have exciting news. Double UHYY has launched a fresh air society, a leadership group dedicated to ensuring fresh air's legacy.

For over 50 years, this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors, artists, actors and more. As a member of the Fresh Air Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition. Learn more at www.yy.org/FreshAirSciety. This is Fresh Air, I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is actor John Bernthal. He returns as the Punisher in the new Spider-Man film brand new day.

He also stars in Christopher Nolan's epic The Odyssey.

He's also the host of the podcast Real Wins, where he sits down with the kinds of people he spent his career playing. Police officers, veterans, former gang members, when we left off, we were talking about how he discovered and fell in love with acting and college. So you did that, and you did that for a while, you started to really get into it. You started to really feel it, and your teacher, her answer to you as she saw your talent blossom was that you needed to go to Russia. To the Moscow Art Theatre School, one of the most demanding classical conservatories in the world.

It is 1999.

“You don't speak a lick of oppression, and you go, why Russia of all places?”

I think just like what you were talking about with Mr. Nolan in the beginning, I would have done anything on the tell me to do. I wanted this, it didn't take long. I auditioned for that play, and I remember telling my best friend, "Great zoomists, that summer. I remember sitting down with him when we were delivering pizzas at the beach, and I remember telling him, "This is what I have to do, this is what I'm going to do."

There's no question. I think number one, this private school kid from DC who thought he was all big and bad, getting out and really seeing the world, and seeing Moscow, I think, would be enormously humbling, and just be a reality check that I needed. I think she also knew that I needed to kind of get away from all the people that I was with, and that it was a group of young men that sort of craved danger is much different than one man on his own.

But mostly Russia is, and was a place with such a rich theatrical history. When being an actor is such a serious profession, you can't do it without real rigorous training. There's statues of actors in the city. It's much more akin to being a soldier.

“And it's that way because it's not taken for granted there.”

Absolutely. Because it's police. It's been censored. Of course, actors have been assassinated. Directors have been assassinated in their homes.

That the opportunity to get a group of people together publicly and put on a show was something that for so long was controlled by the state. It was controlled by the state for all of my teachers. So, you know, for them, you know, this was not a hobby. This was not something that you just got to do. It was such a privilege.

It was such an honor. An honor that they performed in plays where had they been caught. They risked imprisonment. They risked assassination. Putting on theatrical productions that Warren State sponsored was absolutely risking their life.

And they did it anyway. All of them. It changed everything for me. It's really interesting that she saw in you that a place like Russia. Because when we think about Russia, I mean, conditions are tough.

It is rough. You went to Russia and you're like, "Wait, I thought I was a tough guy." Oh, yeah. The brutality there was unlike anything I had ever seen. But so was the beauty and they were equal parts.

I mean, you know, I had guns, multiple guns pulled on me, you know, within my first week there.

“You know, I had, I saw, you know, people that were left dead in the street.”

I saw a level of desperation, a wildness, of unbelievable disparity between those that have and those that do not. You know, people called it the "Wawa West." But I mean, it was run by criminals. I mean, that's just what was going on there then. And you were yet going to school every day, kind of class every day.

Yeah, you know, living in this tiny little place with four other people I slept on the floor. We turned the lights on. You know, the cockroaches would go everywhere.

You feel I'm climbing over you all at night.

The buildings had curfews, so you, you know, you could only get in and out at certain times. And then if you needed to get out, you know, you'd throw the fire hose down and you'd repel. Down out of the windows. I mean, it was, it was a wild place in a wild time. But the most alive, the most impactful time of my life without a doubt.

If you're just joining us, my guest today is actor John Bernthal. He stars in the new Christopher Nolan epic, the Odyssey in theaters now. And he reprises the role as Frank Castle, the Punisher and the new Spider-Man film. In theaters this week, we'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is fresh air.

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And today I am talking with actor John Bernthall. He returns as the Punisher and the new Spider-Man film and stars in Christopher Nolan's epic The Odyssey. His breakout role was as Shane and the Walking Dead, and he won an Emmy for his role as Mikey in the Bayer.

2010 finally comes year in Los Angeles.

The Walking Dead playing Shane, a sheriff deputy, trying to hold a group of survivors together at the end of the world. And this role is considered your breakout role. But you've been open that year before, almost to the day, your life had nearly ended because of a conflict that had happened in Venice. Yeah, what happened? Yeah, I mean, I've spoken about it before.

“You know, I think that that was sort of the tail end of all of the walls that I had walked into.”

There are so many times that you know, I should have learned my lesson. And I think for a while there, I believe that kind of my, my wildness, I think I suffered from something that a lot of young artists suffer from. Where I thought that sort of my wildness and that reckless abandon that I talked to you about before. That I thought that I needed to hang on to that in order now to be a good artist. That the two things came hand in hand.

I think your edge, like it was your edge or a little bit. And I knew that I was capable, I've been a place that a lot of actors had been. I've been in situations that a lot of them had been and I've been capable of things that a lot of them were capable of. And I felt that that was something that I kind of needed. And yes, July 3rd, 2009, I was in a situation where, you know, I was confronted by a group of men.

You know, one of them, you know, came out my dog and they started to follow me and I fought them. And, you know, one of them got enormously hurt, seriously hurt. And we weren't sure whether he was going to wake up. And that led to one of the most profound moments of my life where, you know, I was at the Ellie County jail, you know, handcuffed to a bench, not knowing which way this was going to go.

And, you know, I've spoken about it before, but, you know, I was in a place where I was quite aware that we were now being led to a place where all of these things,

all of this unbelievable opportunity of being in, this wasn't the first time.

I mean, I've been in trouble a lot. And I'd gotten to go to Russia. I got to be in movies at this point. Beyond TV shows. And here I was handcuffed to a damn bench, not knowing if this guy was going to wake up.

And made a promise to yourself. I did.

“I think what happened there, you know, honestly was, I knew and it wasn't, it wasn't a shameful thought.”

And it wasn't a scary thought. I just knew that that this man wasn't going to wake up and that this was going to be my life. I mean, I don't want to say it this way, but it's just the truth. So I will. I heard a voice.

And the voice said, look, this is going to be your life now. And so it's time to let all that other stuff go. It's time to go in there. And I knew enough about what it would mean to have a serious charge, you know, in LA. And what that would mean from my life going forward.

And I understood it. And I wasn't scared of it. I accepted it. And I even welcomed it. And I said, okay, well, that's that then.

It's time to say goodbye. But then this other voice came. And it just said, oh, man, it played. And it just said, if you just give me this shot. If you just one more time, even though my butt has been saved so many times,

“I'm not a kid who didn't come from opportunities.”

I did.

And I never learned this damn lesson.

But oh, man, if you just, if you can just get me out of this one. And it's palpable. How many folks don't get that? And, you know, right at that moment, an officer came in and said that he had woken up.

And I said that if that happens, I'm done. I'm going to devote myself to this work. I'm going to get married. I'm going to have a family. I'm going to devote myself to service.

I'm going to be the best version of myself that I possibly can be. And look, that situation didn't surely didn't end right then. There were still consequences. There were still. But he survived.

And like that means that's significant. I mean beyond what's obvious for him and for you. For sure. And look, as you were looting to one year later, engaged in my wife, free from alcohol. On the set of this TV show that I just knew, I just knew I had to do.

I had to do it. You know, as they were with my friend Sarah Wayne Cowell, he's on July 3rd. Just beginning this process. I was here. The next year.

And I went home and I wrote that guy letter. And I knew that you know, what I saw in that man that night was I saw myself. I knew that, you know, this sort of vile, rampantious, aggressive, bad man, with child was something that I'd seen in myself. And I knew that that had to, I had to be done with that.

And I have been done with it. And the thing that is not lost again, I think really does pertain to so many of the roles that I play. As I'm sure you know, so many people are in that exact same situation that I'm in. And they don't get saved.

And it doesn't turn out well.

“And that's why I fundamentally believe that that hope and love and yearning.”

And the things that make us human are prevalent in everyone. Even in the most violent, even in the most secluded, even in the most desperate.

And so I always try to find those things in the people that I play.

This role in the walking dead. It's one year later. July 3rd, 2010, you're walking on the set in Atlanta. A year sober, as you said. And this character, Shane.

He's a sheriff's deputy trying to hold a group of survivors together. And I actually want to play a clip. So this is a scene from season two. Episode six, secrets. And Dale played by Jeffrey Demun,

who was often seen as the voice of reason among the group. Kind of senses your character. Shane is troubled because of his aggressive attitude and short fuse. And he also believes you might have killed somebody. Okay.

So, and he urges your character to leave the group. And your character Shane pushes back and threatens him. Let's listen. You've been vague about that night about what happened. I would just add a hero.

So you've said a little boy lived because of what went down then. I think you are a show some gratitude. I wasn't there. No, man, you are. But I was the time that you raised your gun on Rick.

You had him in your sights and you held him there. I know what kind of man you are. You think I should break? That is my best friend. That's a man that I love.

I love him like he's my brother. You think that's a kind of man I am.

Well, man, we ought to just think that through.

“It's like I'm the kind of man gun down his own best friend.”

What you think I do is some guy that I don't even like. When he starts throwing accusations my way, what you think. Oh, that was my guess today, John Bernthalen. And the walking dead and it's all in the eyes. Between the two of you and that scene.

You know, this is a chilling piece of acting and. Knowing what you were going through in your own life and this promise that you made to yourself. In a way, it's like you're channeling. You're channeling that kind of rage and anger into into this character. What is it like to to visit a character like this.

The thing you promise to kind of leave behind in your own life. It's such a blessing. It's such a blessing. It's profound. You know, the thing that I thought I needed to cling to.

In order to be the guy that I was in order to have the relationships that I had. In order to sort of keep my reputation among my friends or to deal with my shame. When I was around all these sort of toxic things. I think plague so many young men. Here I found this thing that I could tap into those same exact things.

Take them enormously seriously and find the truth. And I know the truth and that stuff. And here I was, I could use it. One level to have a job. But but two and much more importantly to hopefully reach.

Folks and and and I think to to tap into things that. I feel is a thing that I love most about art is when you tap into a color or to sound or to an emotion. That we know that we felt that we know that we've seen. We know as part of the experience, but we can't really label it. I know that I know that I know that guy.

I've seen that guy. I see that kind of pain. And that was the blessing of my career without it out. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor John Bernthal.

We'll be right back after a break. This is fresh air. The most compelling global stories straight to your ears.

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And today my guest is Emmy winning actor John Bernthal. He's in two major films this summer. Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey, where he plays Manalayas, King of Sparta. And the new Spider-Man film, reprising his role as Frank Castle, the Punisher.

The character he first made famous and the Netflix series.

His breakout role was a shane in the walking dead. And he won an Emmy for playing Mikey in the bear. He just ended his run on Broadway. Starting alongside his longtime friend, Evan Moss backwreck in the play, Dog Day afternoon.

So Evan is the one that pulled you into the bear. Right? So the way you've told it, there is no script, no pitch. Just Evan saying, hey man, do me a favor. You need to come on this.

So I give you to do this. And so you took it blind. And that favor became Mikey, which you won in Emmy for, congratulations. Thank you. The storyline is that he took his own life.

And everything in the show, the restaurant, all of it, is kind of centered around the crater that is left with your absence. And you appear only in flashbacks and memories. Was there a particular thought about the way that you took on this role, knowing that you would kind of be like this figure that's not there.

But is there at the same time? For me, I don't think you can go about it that way.

“I remember David's time and telling me that, you know,”

the second that he would tell a character on the wire that they were dying.

They would start eating a rich cracker. Like it was the last time that every, either rich cracker. You can't, I heard these things about, you know, we need, we need him to be larger than life. And we need him to, you know, be this, you know,

you can't, you know, you can't go in and play a role. This guy's got to hang over all the, you know, where you see him in the first season is so unbelievably different from where you see him in the second season. They, they allowed him to get ugly.

They allowed to see the other side in the first season. You see this, this smile in this warmth and this ability to tell a story and how much everybody, you know, you know, when we lose people, the rose colored lens, the glorification.

I mean, you know, it's, it's a part of it.

You and Evan, as you said, you wrote this episode together of the bear called Gary. And in this prequel, so Mikey is alive. It's before everything.

“It's on a road trip from Chicago to Gary, Indiana,”

and you're with Richie, who's Evan's character. And on an unspecified mission. And during that trip, Mikey meets a woman named Sherry, played by Marin Ireland at Gary, Indiana Bar. And they go into a bathroom stall together.

Kind of have a little, little drugs. And they share an intimate moment about how kind Mikey's mother was when she was high. And what's so powerful about this is that we know Mikey had issues,

but they were never really laid out.

And here he is talking to a stranger. And we're seeing him his most open intimate self with a stranger and a bathroom stall. And it's a little low, but we're going to listen to it. It's Mikey talking to Sherry telling him about this memory.

Let's listen. When I was a kid, you know, my mom used to do this thing or like when she was like, I'm like the perfect mixture of like all kinds of things in her system. You know, I was just like perfect.

She's like coming to my room in the middle of the night. You know, she lets scratch my back. She had like the longest nails. You know, and she used to just walk me through my day. You know?

“Like the most of my new details, you know?”

Like what we're going to eat more going to wake up. What I was going to wear was going to be on the radio. Like every [bleep] thing, you know? Just like... I make you feel like, I don't know.

Like I just made me feel so relaxed. Yeah. Yeah. And like no matter what was going to happen that day, it didn't matter what test or something.

I had to deal with. I knew that. And she had planned it for me. It was great. It was just one time.

I was like, "Hey, ma'am. Hey, ma'am, will you come in and tell me about my day tomorrow?" And she was like, "I feel like I got angry?" Yeah. She was like, "My key."

[bleep] difference doesn't make. It's just a day. I was like... I just said, "Didn't understand how that could be." I was like, "Like, how that could be?"

I was like, "Yeah." That's so scary. You know what I mean? [chuckles] [sighs]

You shouldn't have done that. [sighs] I should have passed them. You see, they're at the end. She tried her best.

That was my guest, John Bernthal. He wrote that with Evan Moss backwreck. It's a prequel episode of The Bear. And, um, "Oh, what a powerful scene." Mm-hmm.

You know? Yeah. There's so much in that. First of all, I just think that the show too... It's such a deep dive into mental health

and the fragility of people. And, um, you know, I had a dear friend of mine who lost his father and he used to talk to me about at certain times at like 330 in the morning. His dad would be like the perfect combination

of alcohol and drugs. And he would come into the room and he would just have this sort of level of peace so he would just sort of set his alarm.

So he would like kind of always be able

to talk to his dad in that state. Um, and my mom used to come in to my room every night. Some nights and scratch my back and tell me about my day. And, and, and, and, and, and... I love the fact that sometimes in life

we can only really talk about ourselves. We can really only explain what's really going on with ourselves with complete strangers. You know, in that scene,

“I think sort of the thing that's going on”

in Mikey more than anything else is that he knows that within the same person. But he he he knows he's got exactly what his mom's got and he knows that it's a hereditary thing and that it's real.

And he knows that what makes him so special and so attractive and and so irresistible. Just, you know, can also make him so repulsive and so dark and so impossible to be around. I love that in the opportunity of this show

we got to have this sort of reprieve where, you know, he got to sort of talk about what was exactly about to happen when he unravels with with Ebbon and, and I think as much as the episode is funny

and it's a slice and time and it's a sort of road trip and it's all across the veggies and, you know, you know, I'm so proud of the piece. One of my favorite roles of yours

is a really small one, but it's a very powerful one

and it's your most gentle and it's you and Eva Dubernais film origin. Um, it's about writer Isabel Wilkerson and how she came to write her book cast and you play her husband, Brett.

Who, um, he is warm, he is devoted and he's strong and his death is one of the losses that sends Isabel's character and degree

and I read that you actually fought for this role. Yeah, tell me about that. After reading cast.

“Yeah, I mean, look, I'm being everybody to read that book.”

How did you even get introduced to the book?

You know, before I went to Russia, I never read, I never read

and I remember I, we got, there's a thing called Black Tuesday where they, they basically cut half the class and everybody has to go in front of all your teachers and you sort of, they analyze you and for me it was doubly hard

because they would analyze me in Russian and then I'd have to wait for the translation and you sort of are known whether you get kicked out or not and so some people walk out and tears some people walk out and joy.

And you know, I remember my acting teachers and again, I'm hearing this through translation but they said, you know, John, you're, you're talent. I remember this so perfectly, your talent's like a gem. It's like a wild gem.

But they said, it's completely unformed. You have no elegance. They said, we bet you don't read

and I'm like, never read a book in my life.

You know, like, never done it. You know, and they said, from this point on, never let there be a moment.

“If you want to be an actor, if you want to be an artist”

never let there be a moment where you're not reading. And I really took that to heart and I just dove in. So, you know, Ava, I was so blown away by Ava. I'm such a big fan of hers. You know, on genu Ellis,

I just think on genu is just a force of nature. She is the greatest we have right now. And also, I felt like to be in a movie where your role is really to be in service. Like, you're to be in service.

You know, that's really the kind of husband Brett was. It was aspirational. Here's this unbelievable woman with this unbelievable mind who could think in a way that no one else could. And he really understood that his role was to serve her.

And so, I don't know, it was something, especially because so much at the time, I'm sort of asked to represent these certain kind of, like, brands of masculinity. I think that character is every bit as masculine

as the Punisher or the guy played in shock collar.

That's just so powerful about it.

I mean, right. He's strong. It's sturdy. It's thoughtful. It's caring. He's a protector. He's a provider. But it has nothing to do with bombaster bluster and again through the lens of raising young men.

“I believe in the ability to defend yourself.”

I believe in part of being a man is to be a provider, to be a protector. But it's also equally important to be kind and curious and sensitive and open and to be a service. Well, John Bernthal, I really thank you for your work

and I thank you for this conversation. I appreciate you having me, I really do. Emmy-winning actor, John Bernthal, currently appearing in Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. His film, Spider-Man, Brand New Day,

opens in theaters tomorrow. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with Class Assist, Emily Wilson. Check out our podcast. You'll find lots of fresh air interviews.

You can also watch some of our interviews on our YouTube page. This is fresh air. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations on what to watch read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whuye.org/freshair.

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