Banned books, shocking art & the birth of the culture wars

I've been very dissociative, so that's a problem for my future therapist. Yeah, I say.

“Let's talk about the fact you're not in therapy, that's fascinating.”

Don't miss our full conversation and the rest of our games, listen to the wait wait don't tell me podcast and the NPR app or wherever you get your podcast. This is Frish Air, I'm Terry Gross.

The culture war never seems to end. My guest Isaac Butler takes us through part of its history in his new book the perfect moment.

God, sex, art, and the birth of America's culture wars. Butler says the conflict had a transformative effect on him, because at the same time the culture wars hurtled toward their climax, art saved his life. His new book begins in 1974 in West Virginia, with the banning of many books and accounties new school curricula with the power of the Christian right behind the ban. There were also behind the attacks on Martin Scorsese's film, the last temptation of Christ, and the tab boo-breaking artwork of Robert Mapletharp and David Voynerovic,

who were accused of creating pornography, and Andreas Serano, who was accused of creating blasphemous art. The story continues with attacks on the NEAs federal funding for the arts.

Isaac Butler as the author of the previous books, the world only spins forward about the play Angels in America and the method about the history of the acting technique known as the method.

We recorded our interview last Thursday. On Friday, the Texas Board of Education approved a new curriculum for students grade K through 12 mandating each grade to have at least one Bible passage. Just required reading. Many parents and teachers are alarmed as the culture wars continue. Isaac Butler, welcome back to Fresh Air. Thank you, Terry. It's great to be here.

So one of the main characters in your book is one of the leaders of the attacks on the artists who are in your book.

And I'm thinking of Donald Wildman, and he's one of the leading figures behind the first attack where your history begins.

So let's start with, who was Donald Wildman? Donald Wildman is a really fascinating, eccentric character. Unfortunately died right as I was starting, doing my interviews for the book. So I didn't get to talk to him, which is unfortunate, but Wildman was a pioneering media advocacy activist. And he was an evangelical Christian reverend in tuplou Missouri who kind of found his calling.

“That's how he describes it in his memoir in trying to make American culture less blasphemous and less sinful.”

In the '70s, this looked like leading boycott campaigns against these conglomerates. Because at that point, you know, like TV studios and movie studios were owned by these companies that also owned. Departments stores in tin mines and literally coffin manufacturers and stuff like that. So he would do these consumer boycotts to get companies to either stop advertising on shows that he disliked or to pull shows or change the content of shows that he disliked. That was where he started.

He was very successful at it and built a really, really huge mailing list. And in the '80s, he and sort of coalition of other evangelical Christians take on Martin Scorsese's last temptation of Christ. And they pivot from that to taking on, you know, often quite unknown American so-called high art.

“That's not really a division. I believe him, but, you know, American high art because it was funded by the government.”

And that created an opening for them to say, essentially, you know, you're wasting our taxpayer dollars on blasphemy and sin. Well, let's go back to 1974 in Kanawa County, West Virginia, where there was new school curricula from the school board. And there was one person who held out on some of the books, on many of the books that were in this new curricula. Her name was Alice Moore. She was married to a Church of Christ Minister and she also opposed sex education. So she's one person on the board. But how does Donald Wildman enter the act?

Well, Alice Moore is a really, also a really fascinating thing. You know, the Kanawa County textbook war, which is what it sort of came to be called. Was the thing I just discovered during research and it blew my mind because all of the factors in, you know, what was going to become the culture war are present there. You have a evangelical Christians, you know, using direct action, organizing and stuff like that to really change the direction of the government. In this case, it was a legal mandate that curricula had to be diverse and reflect diverse perspectives on American life.

And Alice Moore, who, as you said, had been elected to the school board on an explicitly anti-sex ed platform, got them to delay that vote.

“And while they delayed that vote, a number of Christian organizations and churches, both within the county and without came and lent their support.”

And so there's, you know, sort of evangelical movement really comes into West Virginia and they, the situation spirals really far out of control over the course of the year. I mean, to a point where people are starting to try to bomb schools to keep schools from opening, you know.

And the end result is they actually wind up kind of, you know, vetoing this rule.

They managed to cause such a fuss that to get it to go away, this county and the school board eventually agree to not have these books come in and to change the rules about what books will be adopted. And within a few years, there's creationist textbooks in classrooms in Canala. So it's this, you know, that really created a kind of template that religious right figures like Donald Wildman would use again and again and again.

If they created a template, what was the template?

Well, it starts with a really intense sense of grievance or performance of grievance that other people expressing their rights essentially. Other people's speech is oppressing you that other people's point of view that you're, you know, Alice Moore says this flat out. It's not that I don't want my child learning x, y, and z. I don't want my child to even know what they are. You know, so it's this idea that's really key to the parents' rights movement that, you know, parents have absolute control over their children and to teach them things that they don't want is a form of discrimination against those parents.

So you start with that kind of grievance and then you move there to, you know, organizing these direct action campaigns with petitions and letters and stuff like that. The end goal is to capture a kind of non largely non partisan group like a school board or a regulatory committee or whatever it is and staff it with people who will then use it to perpetuate your ideological goals.

“So that's what they're always moving towards is capturing these the decision makers or pressuring the decision makers and threatening the decision makers in such a way that they are going to help you pursue your ideological goals.”

So what were some of the books that were removed from the curricula as a result of this pressure campaign? I mean, it's, there's hundreds of them, right? And it's, it's everything from, you know, essays by James Baldwin to there's a picture book of Jack and the Beanstalk that someone objects to because there's a, you know, a black kid and a white kid playing together on the cover. Really runs the gamut. It's hundreds of books that they pull and follow Jesus, especially of poetry and essays that are meant for, you know, the equivalent of like AP or baccalaureate juniors and seniors, you know, like upper level people doing adult level English literature work, that kind of stuff often has a lot of adult themes, right? And so a lot of those books wind up getting pulled.

Sure, you know, books we might take for granted today, like the autobiography of Malcolm X, you know, that was one that got a lot of strikes against it. Do you see similarities between this 1974 case and what's happening now with the banning of books and don't say gay? Yeah, I absolutely do. The difference now, of course, is that they're in charge. You know, you know, Ron DeSantis and the Republicans have a firm grip on the government in Florida. They have gotten those school boards staffed with, you know, people who are ideologically in lockstep with them.

So it's much easier. You just have to pass a bill, right?

“But it's absolutely the same stuff, which is that, you know, we don't want our children to have to learn that there are other ways of looking at the world. That's what's really at the heart of it.”

And a lot of the other ways of looking at the world that they don't want their children to learn about, of course, focus on sex gender and sexuality. So let's jump ahead to the late 80s and early 90s when transgressive art was very popular and it was very unpopular on the religious right and Donald Wildman again becomes a main character in this story. So let's start with Andre Sorano, who is best known for his photograph Piss Christ and was a part of a series that he called Emergen's in which the images were based on body fluids either from animals or from people and it could range from blood to milk in this case urine.

The image, if you didn't know the title of the image, you would just think it was sort of this beautiful, holy tribute to Christ and Christ's sacrifice. It is a crucifix that has angled a little bit towards the viewer, so the end of one of the arms is sort of disappearing into nothing and it is in this murky kind of field visual field.

It's not even clear that it's a liquid when you first look at it and it's backlit so it has this kind of spectral kind of holy power to it.

“And I think part of what caused all the controversy is the image is so beautiful and so holy seeming and then you know it's contrasted with this title that is extremely blunt and potentially although that is not how he intended it blasphemous.”

And so it's those two things happening at once that I think help give the work of art it's power. There's something almost celestial about it because there's no ground there's no sky it's Christ, like on the cross kind of blurry who seems to be like floating in this ethereal space. And it's very unearthly looking. It's almost as if like Christ is rising on the cross and is kind of celestial looking especially like if you don't know how it was made. Yeah, I find the photograph unbelievably moving even knowing how it's made and you know like I'm a Jew I still thought is but I still think that that that photograph is is unbelievably moving and beautiful and you know Serano was raised Catholic considers himself you know a Christian he met Pope Francis you know he he is he is wrestling with his faith and he belongs to a long history of Catholic artists.

I mean Graham Greens the power and the glory comes to mind to me wrestling with their faith and the symbols of that faith. So let's hear an excerpt of the interview that I recorded with Andreas Serano in 1993 and it starts with him describing it.

“This is a mysterious image I think as as many people have pointed out without the title it would have been seen as a very influential treatment of the crucifix and you know fit to hang in a church probably.”

This was a photograph. Yes, but the crucifix was actually immersed in urine. Yes. Yes. Now when you put those two together a lot of people see it as blasphemous.

Well you know I never saw it that way and I remember when I first showed the work in New York that this woman she was married to a Reverend she said to me.

You know when it comes to religion my husband and I don't agree about anything but we were both very moved by your picture. And you know that is essentially was the reaction at first. No one you know paid much mine except after you know the American Family Association got into the picture more than two years after the picture was first man. What were you saying about religion in that piece? Well I would say that it's probably a reflection of my own ambivalent feelings about my Catholic upbringing.

Aside from that there's nothing specific you know also which of claims I've been made for that piece. And I remember at the time that I was embroiled in the controversy the Southeast and Center for Contemporary Art. Which was the sponsor of that very controversial grant and archo set to me you know the NEAs breathing down on next for an explanation and can we say it's a protest against a commercialization of religion and religious values.

“And I said you know well that's not language that I would use but you know if you want to say that that's fine.”

What was it like for you to be at the center of a national controversy to have your art addressed on the Senate floor?

It was very strange I mean at the first I couldn't believe it when they first told me that this was going on that thousands of people.

You know at the request of the American Family Association we're sending in protest lettuce to Congress. And then I saw myself being denounced you know on TV and in the congressional record. That was the artist Andre Serrano recorded in 1993 on fresh air and my guest is Isaac Butler author of the new book the perfect moment God sex art and the birth of America's culture wars. So it's so interesting because Serrano was like a total unknown until he was in this touring show because he was I think he'd won a kind of competition and all of the winners were in this group show that was touring.

So he mentions in the excerpt that we just heard the American Family Association that's Donald Wildman's group who we've been talking about. So how did Wildman pick up on this?

Someone saw the photograph in Richmond Virginia at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts and they wrote a letter to the editor of the Richmond Times dispatch about it.

“And somehow Wildman learned about it through that letter as far as I can tell.”

There's been accusations that he you know put that person up to it or whatever but I've never seen any evidence of that.

And so then he you know started turning on the outrage machine about it. He was writing his list and they were you know writing to Congress and all this stuff about this artwork which at that point he hadn't seen. And I don't think anyone who was writing Congress about it had seen it because that show had been closed as Serrano said for quite some time. And you know it wasn't like the the Sica touring art exhibit is not like a major art thing.

“And then it got picked up by Jesse Helms Senator Jesse Helms who's from North Carolina which is where Sica was based.”

And was a major opponent of the arts and arts funding and was always on the lookout for stories like this to make hay out of.

And then there's this weird thing where they have a copy of the catalog of the exhibit and Aldo Mado Senator of New York. Ask them to borrow the catalog and he brings it on to the Senate floor and he denounces Serrano and he literally tears a page out of the out of the catalog in the midst of his kind of rant about it. And after that kind of you know all hell kind of breaks loose for the NEA especially and to some extent for Serrano who becomes a little bit more reclusive out of it. Although he has always said that that controversy helped put him on the map and in fact a few years after you did that interview with him.

He wrote Jesse Helms a thank you note for making him famous. So yeah, he's a he's a mischievous guy, you know, and so that is worth so much more his gallery wanted to decline doing another show with him because in his previous gallery show. He'd only sold like one photograph but after the controversy you know he was selling a lot and he was you know it was it was a boon to his career. It reunited him with a daughter he had had previously that he wasn't you know in contact with I mean it was it was a really life changing event for him.

But not for the NEA, but not for the NEA. No, the NEA life changing but bad. Yes, it's a great way of putting it Terry life changing but bad that should have been the title of of the book but the yeah so what happens to the NEA at this point is that there's a huge amount of scrutiny placed on it. And it's grants and the NEA had had like a couple of minor controversies earlier. The biggest one was over Erica Johns novel fear of flying.

But the because of its frank discussion of sex but you know for the most part it was kind of left alone. It had you know bipartisan support people didn't really care about it that much but at that point you know American art is getting more purposefully transgressive in response to the AIDS crisis.

And the religious right is getting more and more powerful and the territory they fight that out over is the national endowment for the arts and what it can and cannot fund.

“So if we flash forward to today, how do you see the attacks on the NEA from the 80s and 90s echoing today and what states you see the NEA being in today?”

Well I answer that second question first which is just to say in the current proposed budget the NEA is being sunset the current proposed budget for 27 has the NEA and the NEH given sort of a token amount of money to allow them to unwind their operations over one to two years. So assuming that goes through there they're gone you know in terms of how I see this kind of playbook being used again and again and again. I just see it all over the place you know the selective out of context misrepresentation of work to anger people happens all over the place the politicizing of what are supposed to be a political decision makers within the government.

I mean I think that's sort of the story of the Trump administration the Trump administration recently passed some rules that say you know something to the effect of to get any funding at all you have to align yourself with one of the administration's priorities. And you know the other place I see it all over is this you know using the power of the purse coercively. A big example is all of those lawsuits against schools and law firms or the pulling of research funding from universities to get them to agree to perpetuate the ideology that you want them to perpetuate.

And that kind of power of the purse and discovering how coercive that can be and often can be both more coercive and maybe more constitutional than doing it through laws is a thing that the right really refined during the period of my story.

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This is fresh air I'm Terry Gross let's get back to my interview with director and cultural historian Isaac Butler author of the new book the perfect moment. God sex art and the birth of America's culture wars. He previously was on the show for his book the method which is a history of the acting approach known as the method. When we left off we were talking about some of the artists at the center of the culture wars in the 1980s and 90s because their work was considered pornographic. Our blasphemous.

So Robert Maplethorpe even if our listeners don't know his work his photographs one photograph he took is especially famous because it's the album cover of Patty Smith's first album horses.

It's this iconic photo on which he's wearing a white button down like men shirt. And an untied tie is dangling from her neck and she has like a suit jacket hanging from her thumb draped over her shoulder. It's a beautiful photo. I don't think anyone's ever looked cooler than Patty Smith looks in the photograph.

“You have to go to like Marlin Brando in the wild one or something.”

Someone who just looked at that cool she looks so cool it's unbelievable. Absolutely, but what he became really famous for was his graphic photographs of men having sex with each other. With a focus sometimes on sadomasochism and the characters in his photos were often black men. We're just something that he was sometimes criticized for possibly like fetishizing black bodies. Yeah, I mean, I actually think it's unquestionable that he fetishize black bodies.

I mean, you look at the things that he said privately and you just look at the photographs of black men eroticized black men. And I think the people who took offense at those photographs on those grounds were totally correct.

You know, a lot of Robert Maplethorpe's work is portraits of celebrities which are pretty amazing.

He has an incredible one of Laurie Anderson and these almost kind of sinister and incredibly sexual seeming photos of flowers. But there is this, you know, couple year period in the 70s where he is frequenting the mine shaft, which is a gay fetish bar. And he's inviting people he meets there to come back to the studio and to photograph them doing the things that they are interested in doing sexually, which are things that people are really doing. I mean, you know, it's documenting a thing that really exists in the world.

But many people find those images quite upsetting. Now, this is where the story interconnects with your family story. Yes. Because after the quirkering gallery in Washington decides it's too controversial, they cancel their showing. They cancel their exhibit.

And a group called the Washington Project for the arts decides, we should pick it up. We should display this work. And this is where your mother comes in machine on the board of the WPA.

“My mother joined the board at some point that summer. She doesn't remember exactly when, but she did say to me,”

the very first board meeting I went to was when we voted on whether or not to take the perfect moment at the Washington Project for the arts. Because Jock Reynolds then had the head of the WPA had, you know, heard a little bit in advance that the show is about to get canceled at a dinner.

And they did, and it was a huge, huge hit. So yeah, so my mother sort of came in a little late to the story. And she was extremely helpful in getting me in contact with people who were involved in it at that time so that I could interview them.

“Was your mother firm in her decision to vote for taking on this exhibit?”

Yes, yeah, my mother, my mother absolutely was. I will say my mother is not interviewed in the book. She is actually one of the most charming, extroverted, you know, incredible people in the world.

But she hates being interviewed and she doesn't like that kind of public attention. So she is not interviewed in the book, but yeah, no, it was not a question to her. You know, most of the kind of liberal DC arts, you know, an intelligentsia people were fully behind the show. They just were like, obviously the show needs to be seen. This is crazy. Let's do it. So let's move on and talk about another artist who was condemned by the religious right for their work. And this is David Warner-Ovich, who was also targeted by Donald Wildman, the head of the American Family Association.

And he was accused of pornography and he insisted that his sexual images were part of a larger political artistic context because some of this work was in collages.

So before we talk about him, I want you to say a few words about his work and then we'll hear him describing it. Boina Rovich is a really hard figure to summarize because he's such a polymath. He's a writer. He's an activist with act up. You know, he's a visual artist. He does collages installations paintings. He really does it all. And his work is very raw. It is often, you know, fueled by a really intense rage.

And much of it is in response to the reality of living as a gay man and a person with AIDS in America at a time when both of those groups are really outcasts in society.

So let's hear an action of the interview I recorded with him in 1990 and this was two years before he died of AIDS at the age of 37. And this was recorded the week. He took Donald Wildman to court and sued him for misrepresenting him and taking him out of context and he was awaiting a verdict on this at the time that we spoke. So this excerpt starts with Voyne Rovich talking about how Donald Wildman used his art and took Voyne Rovich's art out of context. What he did was he exized from the images, small fragments that dealt with sexual activity or depicted sexual activity that were in a political and artistic context.

Strip the context from around the image and then presented that image as the full work. I'll put my name on it and he did this to 14 images three of which were not sexual nature and sent them around the country.

“What charges were made about your art in the literature that was sent out with images from your work in it?”

Well it was sent out in an envelope that was marked warning extremely offensive materials enclosed or something. I don't have them local front of me. So that's an approximate description of it. He left the very strong impression that my work consists of solely nothing more than a banal pornography. Now you're saying that he took one component of a larger mixed media collage work and blew that up and presented that as being representative of your work. You've been working with mixed media images for a long time. Tell us a little bit about why you work in that form.

“I guess emotionally and intellectually it's the only way that I can represent what my experience in the world is a given that when we walk out in the street, we're so heavily bombarded with visual information,”

whether it's store signs, newspaper covers, magazine covers, advertising, etc. I like to use a variety of media that somehow approximates what it's like to walk down a street or to move through space and contemporary America. One of the issues that brought your work into the center of national controversy was the 1989 group show called witnesses against our vanishing about the influence of AIDS on aesthetic sexuality and culture. It was a group show at a gallery called Artist Space in New York. What was your reaction when after the NEA reinstated money for the show, it still refused to fund the catalog because of your essay.

Publicly funded institutions that they shouldn't deal with work that might be critical in terms of politics.

That was the Artist David Voynerovic recorded in 1990, and my guest is Isaac Butler, author of a new book called The Perfect Moment, which is a history of the culture wars.

“So can you describe the lawsuit that Voynerovic was talking about?”

Yes, so Voynerovic is suing Wildman over this tactic that the right is really good at going back to Kanala on forward today, which is taking excerpts of something out of context and saying that it is representative of the larger. In order to get people angry, right? And so what Wildman did was he took these collages that have little images that are, you know, they're re-photographed and kind of distorted and whatever from many of which are from pornography magazines that are part of these larger collages.

And he's saying this is the work of art. And so Wildman Susan, his lawyer is actually David Cole, who's now one of the foremost, you know, first amendment ACLU attorneys in the country, but David Cole is his attorney.

“And they sue Wildman over a couple of fronts, copyright infringement, libel and violating this new law in New York that protects artists against their work being misrepresented and used without their permission.”

And it's a very funny weird trial. It lasts one day because everyone has already been deposed and they all agreed to enter those depositions into evidence.

So it's just sort of like, David Warner-Rovitch cuts on the stand, Donna Wildman gets on the stand, it's over. You know, and what the judge eventually rules is that it doesn't meet the standard of libel, but it did violate this New York state law instituted to protect artists. So Voina Rovitch wins the lawsuit and he is awarded an apology that the American Family Association has to send out to its mailing list and $1 in damages, which is the symbolic amount you give when you believe a harm has been done, but that it didn't actually cause any financial harm.

This is another instance where the artist wins, in this case actually wins in court, but the NEA suffers because Donna Wildman's goal was to just like get rid of the NEA.

“Yes, yes, that is true. I mean, and it didn't get rid of the NEA, but with each of these attacks, I think the NEA becomes weaker.”

Yes, with each of these attacks, the NEA becomes weaker. The NEA loses allies in Congress. It's death by a thousand cuts, right? With each of these things that happens, you know, the NEA is either is forced to spend political capital or the attacks on it are increasing just over and over and over again. That said, you know, the kind of immediate quick compromises that the NEA and its allies are doing before this moment are also weakening the NEA. You know, so there's a sort of damned if you do damned if you don't aspect to it, which is really difficult because there's so few people in Congress who are willing to just be like, you know, the government doesn't pick ideological winners and losers in choosing what to fund and that includes the arts.

And so sometimes the government is going to fund art that makes people angry and that is okay because making people angry is actually a legitimate function of the arts.

My guest is Isaac Butler, author of the new book, The Perfect Moment. God, sex, art and the birth of America's culture wars will be right back. This is fresh air. This week, cyber security researchers discovered a striking computer virus seemingly related to the conflict between the US and Iran over Iran's nuclear program. Everything about this thing screams special. A cunning cyber weapon meant to gaslight nuclear scientists, listen to plenty money on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

This week on sources and methods 6 prime ministers in 10 years since Brexit, the UK has been trapped in a revolving door of political turmoil. We're unpacking with the Exit of Prime Minister Kierstarmer says about the populist movement that pulled Britain away from Europe. Listen now to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air. Let's get back to my interview with Isaac Butler, author of The Perfect Moment. God, sex, art and the birth of America's culture wars. It focuses on the religious rights attacks on certain books, art and film of the 70s, 80s and 90s.

Well, when I was a kid, I was like a lot of theater kids. I was kind of a lonely, bullied, unhappy child.

I got, but I loved acting and I loved theater and I wound up cast in this professional musical called Valsetta Land by William Finn and James LePine, which is a musical about what the meaning is of the American family and the AIDS crisis in its early stages, the musical takes place in the early 80s.

“And what it is to be gay in America. So I played the son of a man who has left his wife for another man.”

And this family is trying to muddle through that while the father's lover is dying of a mysterious new illness, which is of course AIDS. And so that was a real eye opener for all sorts of reasons, which is, among other things, you know, gay liberation and the AIDS crisis became very real to me as opposed to things that I heard about because my parents had to make the whole layer of news hour on in the evening.

And I was meeting gay adults, I was meeting people who had AIDS, gay people and people with AIDS were coming to see the show and talking to me afterwards.

And I just like, at this moment when art really saved me because I was in a really bad place emotionally, personally, psychologically. And, you know, being in that show really changed my life for the better. It's made one of the most formative experiences in my life. And at that point, the fight for American arts and free expression, those protests were really fueled by the gay rights movement and act up.

All of these contexts were overlapping at the same time.

What do you think the AIDS epidemic in some ways really changed American art or aspects of American art? People who were gay and especially gay people who had AIDS were considered dangerous outsiders threats to our health and culture and marriage.

“I mean, it was that era. So it's, I think, understandable why they made transgressive art because they were, their, their way of living was considered just being gay was considered transgressive.”

Yeah, I mean, when you have a Congress, and I don't want to completely put that in the past tense because that's kind of resurfaced. Yeah, that's absolutely, it's, it's too transgressive. You can't live that way. Especially, let's withdraw legalizing gay marriage. Yeah, well, and we see it even more right now with the transgender community who are losing rights that they used to have, who are being shunned from the public square, who are, you know, faced with legal discrimination, they're finding that there's, there's whole states within the United States that that they can't really travel to because there's so many laws discriminating against them.

And once again, we see a lot of the liberal establishment willing to compromise on a lot of that stuff in the hopes that it will go away. It's the exact same dynamic really that we saw in the original culture wars. Yeah, when you are faced with a congressman like William Dana Meyer, who's saying that HIV positive people emit spores that cause birth defects, which is a literal thing, he said at one point, you know, how do you respond to that? If you're responding to that in your art, you know, it's probably not going to be very polite.

I don't want to leave the left completely off the hook when it comes to objecting to art. The left is not extreme about this in the way that the right has been. But one other shows that you've written about is a show by Philip Gostom, who was a late visual artist, and he had a show. They were images depicting the clan members of the clan, but in kind of clownish ways, it was pretty obviously satirical work.

“And there were people on the left in the art world who objected to this exhibit. Can you explain?”

Yeah, so this is a posthumous retrospective of Philip Gostom that was originating in the UK and then touring to the United States. And actually, this exhibit and the fallout of it was the initial impetus behind my deciding it was time to write this book and try to research the culture wars. In 2020, the exhibit was kind of indefinitely delayed. It really seemed like it had been canceled, although it did eventually tour just to be clear. Because of these late period paintings that Guston had done that had kind of cartoony images of the clan in them, there was the feeling that they're needed to be, you know, greater.

The mere image of a clan's been could traumatize someone. And I just thought and continue to think that that's absolutely absurd.

“Philip Gostom was a Jewish artist. He had run in with the clan early in his career. He was a lifelong anti-racist. Like, you really don't need anything more than putting that on a wallcard.”

Yeah, because of the clan hated Jews too. I mean, it wasn't just black people, it was Jewish people. It was Catholics too. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, one of his early murals that he did during the New Deal, if I recall correctly, was actually destroyed by a crowd that included clansmen. So, you know, he himself had been threatened by the clan. And I just felt like, what are we even doing here, people? Why are my allies on the left and in the arts pulling this kind of stuff? Especially since this is all theoretical. There haven't even been any complaints.

And so, eventually, the show did tour and did open in the United States like the Maple Thorpe XYZ portfolios. The gusten paintings were sequestered in a separate room that you had to go into surrounded by mental health literature. I mean, it's just ridiculous. And so, that was where the book actually began because I really wanted to reclaim free expression and free speech as a left-wing value as an important part of living in a diverse liberal democracy.

And then, of course, as soon as I started working on it all the Ron DeSantis and Don't Say Gay Stuff happened, and I started to feel like, well, also it's just totally asymmetric.

What do you mean? Well, what I mean is like, you know, yes, the left does stuff around expression that is annoying, and sometimes has material consequences, and I don't like it, and I condemn it, and I have for a long time. But it really pales in comparison to what the right does on these issues, both because the right has a lot more power currently in the United States. But it's also the way they choose to wield that power when they have it. If you're just joining us, my guest is Isaac Butler. He's the author of the new book, the perfect moment.

God, sex, art, and the birth of America's culture wars. We'll be right back after a short break. This is fresh air. NPR's newest podcast is where you can find NPR's biggest interviews. I'm Steve Enskit. The program is called NewsMakers.

We talk with some of the most powerful and influential people at this moment to put real questions to them and push for real answers.

Follow NewsMakers on the NPR app or any podcast player or you can watch on NPR's YouTube channel. I'm Jesse Thorne. This week on Bullseye Craig Ferguson on his love of all things American, including you, New York City. People have their own little things, but at least somehow think New York is not America, as is the rest of America.

“But I feel the opposite. I think it's full on America.”

That's Bullseye. Find us in the NPR app at maximumfund.org or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air. Let's get back to my interview with Isaac Butler, author of the podcast. author of the perfect moment. God, sex, art and the birth of America's culture wars. It focuses on the religious rights attacks on certain books, art and film of the 70s, 80s and 90s. A lot of art has become very political now because we're living in such a divisive time.

And there are artists who feel like art is irrelevant unless you're really speaking to the moment and to the crises that we're in. And you object to that. And, you know, to the sense that like art needs to like speak to the moment and be political.

“Tell us about your objections to that. Why are thinking?”

My objection is mainly to the viewing of it is a requirement. You know, I think it's great when art speaks to the moment. But the idea that that's the only art that's worth doing. I find very depressing and narrow. Because art is such a wonderful, capacious, you know, part of the human experience. You know, people wrote love poems in the Gulag. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, we come to the arts as the kind of dream life of the self.

And sometimes those dreams are very political. Like sometimes I have very political dreams. And sometimes I have dreams where I'm like flying and then I plunge into a bowl of soup or whatever. You know, so I just think that we shouldn't limit the possibilities of art to any one specific thing. And I also feel like, you know, and I'm sure you've had this experience looking at art of whatever kind. Where in artist feels that it's necessary they speak to the moment.

But that's not really what they're good at or that's not really what's in their soul. So there's something hollow and simple and directic about the art that results. And I would just want art that is more complex and interesting.

Well, the book would, you know, become infinite. Because it seems like they pick a culture war about everything.

“Do I really have to do a chapter about whether it's okay that Helen of Troy is black in the new Christopher Nolan movie?”

You know, like it just seems like even breakfast cereals or whatever have become part of the culture wars. Now, like the culture wars have completely eaten America. I will say that when Trump got elected, it was a real fork in the road for me and the book. Because I decided when the book started that I was going to keep it in its own time and not comment on the present.

Very much, you know, just in the intro and afterward, basically.

And when Trump was elected, I really did have this moment where I was like, "Oh God, do I need to pivot and comment on today?" And I eventually decided no. And the reason why I decided no is that I wanted the work to have integrity as a work of history. And once you make it all about the present, it becomes a polemic.

“And that's just a different kind of beast and I didn't want to do it.”

And the other reason is, like, the book would be like 6,000 pages long. Yeah. And it wouldn't be finished by the time it was published. Right. Not only would it not be finished by the time it was published, it would be immediately obsolete. Yeah. You know, books are a bad art form for commenting on things that are happening right now.

Because they take so long to make. I mean, they physically take so long to make.

That they're sort of outdated the second they come out.

Well, Isaac Butler has been great to have you back on the show. Thank you so much. Terry, thank you so much for having me.

“Isaac Butler is the author of the new book The Perfect Moment.”

God, sex, art, and the birth of America's culture wars. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, a relatively new breed of ticks spreading across regions of America. They're ready to feed on us and bringing dangerous illness and allergies that could be lethal. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews,

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Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger, our technical director in Engineers, Audrey Bentham, our engineer today is Adam Stanachewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers and Marie Boldenado, Lauren Crenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thayah Challenger, Susan Ekindy, Anna Bowman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler.

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