David Sedaris wants to be better (at everything)

So city and state governments are stepping in.

“We think we are standing what can be the future of energy and Denver.”

On the Sunday Story, climate solutions on the local level.

Listen now on the up first podcast on the MPR app.

This is Fresh Air, I'm Terry Gross. For over three decades beloved humorous David Sedaris has chronicled the absurdities of modern life, including his own. He got a start writing about a short tenure at Macy's as crumpet, a Santa land elf, in an essay titled The Santa Land Diaries.

When he first read the essay on NPR's morning edition back in 1992, it generated more tape requests than any other story in the show's history to that point and turned him into an overnight sensation. He since published several best-selling collections of personal essays, been awarded the Thurber Prize for American humor,

and was inducted into the American Academy of Arts and Letters on 2019. His latest book of personal essays, the land and its people, Cassadaris and several roles, devout brother, itinerant traveler, grieving friend, and reluctant caretaker. Sedaris, who is now 69, writes, "I'm in the hard part of getting old.

The part where everything irritates you. The easy part comes a little later when my short-term memory disappears." David Sedaris spoke with guest interviewer Sam Fragoso, host of the interview podcast "Talk Easy." David Sedaris, welcome back to Frischer.

Thank you so much, Sam. Your latest collection of essays, the land and its people,

“our pieces you've been reading on tour around the country, I think,”

for the last four or five years, does performing these pieces in front of an audience help you make them better?

Yes, the audience is my first editor, and they tell me everything I need to know.

One of the new pieces I wrote, I was talking about how frustrating it is to be in line behind someone who's buying lottery tickets. I just hate it when you get there and then the person in front of you is like, "No, that's 19, 33, 6." On my death bed, I'm going to want all that time back that I spent standing behind people buying lottery tickets.

And when the audience, let's say, for instance, when they cough, they tell me that I need to cut whatever it is that I'm reading. Or, you know, of course, when they laugh, that's fantastic. But I don't mind a grown, a collective grown is fine with me. On, you know, that kind of horrified sound, that's all fine with me.

I mean, there are different laughs, too. You know, there's a laugh of shock, and there's a laugh of recognition. And there's a laugh that says I shouldn't be laughing at this, but look, I am. So, and I can gauge them. You know, I've just been doing this for so long. I can gauge it. And then, like, sometimes, if you have,

we'll try to get next time, I said, and then you change it to, I said, try to get next time, then it'll work. So, if I have the opportunity to have the audience in front of me, I don't want to read anything the same way twice in a row. I want to take the opportunity to change that word. There's something I'm working on.

“I've been reading it out loud, and it's a crow, and it would be the name of a crow, right?”

Like, I determine the crow's name. And so, I thought, I've been going with Scott, but then I changed it, and Scott gets a huge laugh, and then I tried, "Oh, Thomas, Thomas would work, and then I tried Thomas, and it got nothing." Why is Scott a good name for a crow, and Thomas, not? I can't tell you, but it's interesting to swap that out every night. When you're out of town, and you're away from you, does your writing routine change at all?

When you're in all these different cities? Are you waking up every morning and getting to the page? What's the process? Well, when I'm at home, I get up and I go right to my desk, but when I'm traveling, I just have to write when I can find the time, right? So, I usually get up

first thing in the morning, but see, I have a lot of, I had one crazy thing that I had to do every day,

and now I have two, right? What are that? So, I have to walk 10 miles a day, and then I have to do a lingo for, I have to be in the top three in the diamond league, right? So, that's like,

spin off of its axis, and everybody will die if I don't do this. I can tell myself that's it,

I'm not doing this anymore, but I can't stop. So, it's a lot. So, I have to write and I have to do those things. So, when I'm on tour, let's say I get back to the room, I've signed books, I get back to the room at one o'clock in the morning, and then someone's taking me to the airport, it's seven o'clock in the morning. Well, then maybe I have to get up at five o'clock in the morning, and then I can usually walk like, I don't know, three, four miles in the airport, and sometimes

I can walk in the airport while doing my do a lingo. But I still need to get a bunch of steps in before we leave for the airport. So, you know, and then sometimes you're in a city and you don't really know the city very well as dark, you know, say you're walking around the hotel around and around, you know, just that block. Or sometimes you've got, you see that you're going to have time later in the afternoon, so you can kind of parse it out. But I have writing to do, and I have do a lingo

“and I have the walking to do. So it's, it's a lot. What languages are you reading and saying aloud?”

I'm German and Spanish and French and Japanese. That's a lot. Yeah. Now, this new obsession you have with hitting your step count via your Apple Watch, and then also doing dual lingo. I'm curious. Is this a stand-in for some kind of OCD that you may have? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's been all my life. It's been one thing or another. And I suppose the only good

thing you can say about it is you don't know what it will be next. Like, it never occurred to me

that the walking, I'm going to always walk everywhere, but it didn't occur to me that I would simply have to walk a minimum of 10 miles a day before my friend Dawn came to visit and she had a fit bit. And it never occurred to me that I'd have the dual lingo thing until Dave, who was trying to learn Spanish. I was on a tour of the UK and he's my tour manager there and he showed me and signed me up on his program. I had no idea the day before

“that. I was free. And it's been all my life. It's been one thing or another. What was it before?”

I'm trying to even think because it's hard for me to give them up once I have them. Well, like even writing in my diary, I started writing in my diary one day when I was 20 years old

and I've never not done it. I mean, every now and then let's say if I go to Australia,

you know, a time difference will make cost me to lose a day every now and then, but oh my goodness, a thought of not doing that. Oh boy, I mean, again, the earth would just spin off of its axis. Can you explain to people what dual lingo max is? And then I want to read it a little bit from the book. Sure, dual lingo is a language learning program and I don't know how I don't we call how many languages they teach but it's an awful lot of languages, right? And it's an owl

is a main figure and then there are a number of animated characters that you learn from and sometimes

“you have to write a sentence in whatever language it is and sometimes you just have to read a sentence”

and sometimes you have to give in all the words and you have to arrange them into a sentence or and then they opt it to do a lingo max and do a lingo max you have conversations with an AI entity that remembers things about you, right? So I like yesterday, I told her or I was coming here today, right? So maybe today, she'll ask how Los Angeles went, right? And did I go shopping and what did I buy when I was in Los Angeles? Because I told her yesterday I was going to go shopping and then

afterwards you have a conversation and then afterwards all there's a transcription of your conversation and all of your mistakes are underlined and explained which I think is pretty great. It's like taking a test and having it immediately graded. Well, let's take a listen to one exchange you had with one of those AI appatars. This is from the chapters say it like you mean it. Answer I would like butter and eggs please and the rest of the conversation

follows the path you might expect. Anything else, she asks? But answer yesterday, a doctor

This is her AI mind telling her quick, say something. Tell him you're sorry about the tongue,

“then ask if he wants to purchase something to drink instead. Surprisingly on that occasion,”

she responded, "I'm sorry I cannot continue this conversation goodbye." She hung up again when I shared my idea for a new production of Romeo and Juliet. In it, she will be 13 and he will be 78, I told her in French. In the Shakespeare version, he kills himself with a poison drink but in mine, he will die of natural causes. Click. A week before arriving at the beach, I told her about the protest. I had passed the new Hampshire. I am mad because my stupid, stupid president is a sausage,

I'd said. He cut the money for the radio and TV shows where women wear a bonnet. Let's talk about something else. She suggested, clearly uncomfortable. You seem to really enjoy messing with the bot and I'm sure you read there are so many new reports coming out about people using these AI bots as a stand-in for therapy, which I know you only did

“once back in the late 80s, I think it was in Chicago. And I wondered, in the same way that you try to”

get your therapist to like you, do you want to be liked by the AI? It is pathetic how much I want, Lily, and that's a very sarcastic teenage girl. She's the one you have the conversations with. You can't choose who you have them, it's just her. It means so much to me that she likes me. Do you have concerns? There's a lot of talk about AI coming for writers, jobs, jobs like mine. A lot of people in the creative industry are worried about where this technology goes.

Is that something you think about? Do you ever use AI as prompts for your writing? You know, the biggest laugh in my entire book is a friend of mine, Jinsie Willet, a writer,

“asked chat GPT to write something in my voice, and this was right when it first came out, right?”

And she sent it to me, and it was so lame, right? And then I rewrote it, and it was the biggest

laugh in the entire book, right? The audience housed with laughter. And I would never have thought

to write about this had chat GPT not written it first. And I thought, well, that's fair. That's not plagiarism or anything. If a machine comes up with it, and then I rewrite it, that's perfectly within my rights, right? But I know what you mean, people being afraid that it's coming for their jobs and so much of successful comedy is just surprising people, right? I surprising people with a word they didn't expect to hear, or an image they didn't expect.

And right now, I feel it's not capable of that, but that doesn't mean it won't be capable of it in a year or two. But me personally, if you've told me that he was a short story written by chat GPT, right, or a book, I do not believe I would want to read it because I want someone on the other end, right? I want someone who I can write to, and I can say, wow, I loved your book. I loved your story, and I want a human to think, oh, I just sold a book. In the land, and it's people,

you, for the first time, I suppose, come out as being married, and which is not a sentence I

thought I would say today, but it is true, why was now the time to announce that your partnership, oh boy, you don't like partner, to announce your marriage, you don't like marriage, either. To announce your whatever you want to call it in this book. Well, you and I, my boyfriend and I, we've been together for like 35 years, right, long time. Yeah, and then at first, we were boyfriends, and then people started calling him your partner, right? And these weren't gay people, it was like

well-meaning straight people because they thought that was the word they were supposed to use partner, right? And I just hated the word partner, and then straight people started saying partner too, so, you know, then you no longer knew, like if a woman said to me, oh my partner, and I will be at the picnic, you didn't know if she was gay or if she's married to a man or not married, but, you know, shacking up with one. So you're saying you, you know, when words are in trouble,

like well-meaning straight people thought it was respectful to use the word partner, right?

“Like the same way now that a lot of people think, they're supposed to use the word queer, right?”

Like, and I can't stand that word, right? But they think they've been told that this is the appropriate word now and the word that they should be using, you know? And then then gay marriage came along, and then everyone just assumed that he when I were married, so they kept saying your husband, and I would say he's not my husband, he's just my boyfriend, right? So then everyone started assuming he when I were married, and we actually, we are married, but we got married. I don't even know

when it was like, I know it was before the pandemic. It was a shotgun wedding arranged by my

banker, you know? And I never told anybody about it, and I told he, he couldn't tell anybody

about it, and why? Because I don't like when a man says the word my husband, it's like my unicycle, you know? I met a woman at a book signing once, and she used to phrase my son and

“laws of unicycle, right? Like, and I thought, "Oh, that's my pain, you every time you have to say”

my son and laws of unicycle." And I wanted gay people to get the right to marry, and then I wanted not a one of us to do it. I thought that would have been perfect. Like, to say, we just wanted the right, we don't, we spit on your marriage, we just wanted the right to do it. Did you and your

sisters make a childhood pact to never get married? Is that how this all started? I made my

sisters sign a contract that I drew up. I drew up contracts all the time when I was a kid. Like what cons? Like a contract, like one time I bought my sisters Amy and Tiffany had a much bigger bedroom than I did at the time, and it was quieter, and I mean there were two of them, so it made sense, the room was a lot bigger. So I drew up a contract and I bought their bedroom for a dollar, and then my mother came down as I was moving their furniture into my teeny tiny. And she ripped

the contract up. Amy was just, my sister, Amy was saying, "Why let go?" She said, "I wish I had saved

all the contracts. He made me sign." And I made them sign a contract swearing and never get married.

But I didn't want to lose them. I was just afraid, because I didn't have a word for what I was at that time, but I just knew that there was something different about. I wasn't like the other boys. And I just thought, "Well, I'm going to be alone for the rest of my life." And I want my sisters to be with me. Like I couldn't bear the thought of being alone without them, so I got them to sign contracts swearing and never get married. But only Amy and Gretchen,

like the other ones I thought, "Okay, I mean I'll see you in my holidays or whatever, but and neither Amy and Gretchen got married." So they have abided by the contract while you have ripped it up in front of them. I didn't sign a contract this day single. I just made them. Yeah. I guess they could call it brotherly love, but that's amazing. But I had said in that piece that they were, you know, I thought of them as spinsters, you know, my

sisters. And did they like that term? Well, they didn't, they didn't mind it because they have good senses of humor, but then I found out you're only a spinster up until the age of 25. After that, you're called a thornback. Well, that's just not right. And a thornback is a bottom feeding skate like fish. No. And you know, I read something about that on stage. And a woman came, a British woman, and said, "I'm actually the one who repopularized that term." She had, she was like an historian.

And she found that this was the term. And she wrote an essay about it. And then, I don't know if I read that essay or if I read something that referred to it. But yeah, they're thornbacks. But genuinely, you know, I think you got married almost 10 years ago. Was any part of that hard to keep a secret? Not at all. And it didn't bother you. No. It bothered you because he was not

“a liar, you know. So he would just have to change the subject. So that's what he would do when”

people would say, "Are you in David married?" He would find some way to say, "How long have you been married?" So he's relieved now that he can tell people about it. But nobody came to me and said,

me because to me, it doesn't mean anything like I never think of you as my husband. I mean,

“I don't want to be with anybody else. And we've been together for a long time. And I adore him,”

you know, but I don't, it doesn't mean anything to me to be married to him. We're listening to the interview guest interviewer Sam Fragosa recorded with writer David Sedaris, who has a new collection of personal essays titled The Land and Its People. Sam is the host of the interview podcast "Talk Easy." We'll hear more of their conversation after a break. I'm Terry Grossen. This is fresh air. This week on "Sources and Methods Every White House" has an official

counterterrorism plan of strategy document, basically, but President Trump's new 2026 plan shifts focus to leftwing extremism. We're unpacking what's in the document and who influenced it this week on "Sources and Methods." You can listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Molly CvNusper, Digital Producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter.

And I'm a newsletter fan. I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week and exclusive. So subscribe at WHy.org/freshair and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. You know, some people have suggested that the veracity of your stories because they include your

past and they're about your past, that the dialogue can be so brilliant and kind of well-written in a way that no one ever truly speaks. And I know you keep endless diary entries and you have all that, but I'm curious because the last time you were on this show, you said your father was quote, "not a good person," but he was a great character. Do you think of people as characters

“first and people second? No, I think of them as people, but then if I'm writing an essay,”

I think of them as characters. Because if you're on the page, you're a character. If, when you're in real life, you're a person. He was a good character. My sister Gretchen, I adore my sister Gretchen. She's not a good character. It's a great person. And I have friends who are great people, but not great characters. It doesn't have anything to do with being dynamic. Maybe it's a degree of confidence that makes somebody a good character.

What do you mean? It's like confident people. A confident people always have my ear.

Even if I don't agree with them or even if I think their confidence is unearned or that they're not, they're fooling themselves, right? It doesn't matter. It

“gets me to sit up straight and it gets me to listen. And I think I'm probably not alone in that.”

You can kind of hypnotize. A confident person can hypnotize the people around him or at least can get them to listen. And I love the combination of somebody who's just a horrible person, but just brimming with confidence and just certain that they're right in all situations.

I mean, my dad was like that. Never, never, ever showed any doubt and regard to anything. And

you know, I didn't agree with him and I didn't want to be him, but it made him a good character. Was the pope a good character? Speaking of someone in power who you've listened to speak? I don't know because I don't follow him. I was invited to Rome to meet the pope, right? The pope that died last year. But I didn't never follow him. I'm not religious and I'm not Catholic. And I don't know what his views were. I don't know. I mean, I just shook his hand. It took two

seconds. But he wasn't compelling to me. He didn't command the room. That was interesting to me. Right? He didn't fill the room. And I don't know if that had to do with his age or his frailty. I mean, we were at the Vatican and we were in some room that people normally don't get to go into. And the costumes were unbelievable. The clothing that the Cardinals wore and that the guards wore

the bride. You know, just he had the least flattering, least interesting outfit in the room. So that was against him, right? And he was sitting down. He didn't stand up. And so that was against them to sit down. And now I've only seen one president in my life. I was at the White House. And I saw Barack Obama. I was just invited to talk with some speedwriters, right? And then he was with the Pakistani delegation and I just saw him and he waved. But he was huge. You know,

“he filled that space for that little brief amount of time. He was a force, right?”

So it's just interesting to me. So in the land in its people, you describe why you love biographies. But admit that you yourself would not be a good subject for one.

Quote, "I'm dull and I've never been unfaithful and I'm intellectually lazy. I'm an idiot basically.

Always have been." Now I read that and I thought, "Do you really believe that?" Yeah. Yeah, I'm not a dynamic person. I mean, I'm not saying that with pity. I have other qualities. But I'm not dynamic. I mean, you know if you are. Is there sister Amy? Yeah, Amy's dynamic. Yeah. And what's the distinction you're making there? Amy is, what's she's really beautiful? And she doesn't demand your attention. She just gets it.

“You know, because you know, that's where you want to be turning. You know what I mean?”

And I'm more demand your attention. And I think that's one of the differences there. Like I'm not, I'm not anybody you would look at, you know? Like it helps me move through the world because it helps me be like a spy in a way, right? And then when's paying attention to me? And I think if everyone were paying attention to you, it'd be harder to be a spy, you know, in the way that you would need to be.

That makes me think, you know, so much of this new book is you looking back at your younger self. And you write extensively in the book about, you know, getting older, not handling illness, particularly well, I don't know, anytime you think of the future you think, well, that's just going to be me, but older. I curious because you're someone who writes so vividly and beautifully about your own life. You're about to turn 70. Do you feel that you're looking back more than

you haven't previous books? Hmm. No, I don't think I look back in this book anymore than I

“have in other ones. I think I do it less actually, but I mean as you get older, you know,”

you know, people start dying around you and you know, you develop health problems and, you know, it just kind of all part of the territory, but I feel like I spent my youth well, like he was mother, right? He was mother is 95 now and she and her husband got a divorce late in life because he was unfaithful, but he was mother will say, look at that girl there. Oh, she's just so pretty and look at her. She got that little skirt on. Her legs just look so good. Of course, her hair and

her makeup. Oh, she's just lovely and she's so generous, right? She never became bidders. She never

felt like, you know, because her husband left her for someone else. She never took that out on other women. You know, she's, there's a generosity there and, you know, if you spent your youth well, then you think, well, you know, I had, I had my turn to be young and I really took full advantage of it. I mean, if you, if you hadn't taken advantage of her, if you were miserable when you were young, then I could see how you might get old and then you're just bitter and you're like

it's not fair. You know, I had a miserable youth and now I'm old and miserable too on top of it. So, and I had this wonderful friend named Gretchen Anderson who died and she was 95 and she died last

year. And it was the same thing, just such a generous person, just always curious, always. And

I just model myself after those two women. Really? I dress like them now.

The Land and its People, more after our break. This is fresh air. On NPR's Wildcard podcast, musician Noah Kahn says he's learned to live with the pressure.

“I think depression anxiety gives you sneaky superpowers in a lot of ways, like the power of”

understanding and attendance sympathizing, being able to talk about my flaws, about it having to be like this terrible taboo thing. Watch or listen to that Wildcard conversation on the NPR app or on

YouTube, @NPR Wildcard. In the last chapter of your new book, you reminisce about when you first

moved to New York in 1990. You know, and how broke you were then and the writer you now are living on the Upper East Side, the inner monologue that you're having about money, it seems to be on display in the book. And I'm curious, like in 93, after your seminal Santa Land piece ran on NPR, you sat for an interview with the New York Times, and you discussed being offered jobs to write soap operas, films, I think even an episode of Seinfeld, and the reason you turned it all down

“was because, quote, if you start making that kind of money, then you have to keep making that kind of”

money. And that's not really what I want to do right now. I wonder, we started this conversation

talking about your pretty rigorous, impressive touring schedule. Do you feel like you have to keep making the money that you're making touring? Is that a motivation for you at this point? I don't know how much of it is about the money. I mean, you know, let's just take the tour that I'm on right now. I started with four new essays, and then I was able to write two little short ones during that time. And so to be able to read them out loud and get them on their feet and get them

better and better and better, that's a lot because if I were just sitting at home, I might have written those things, but I wouldn't have had the chance to improve them the way that I've been able to on this tour. And I love attention, right? I love going on stage and I love people applauding, love people laughing, just love it, don't know how I'll survive when that's taken away from me.

“And I think people like to see somebody who appreciates it, you know?”

When you say you don't know how you'll survive without that, without that adoration, what are you afraid of? It's not just the adoration. I mean, it's learning it. Yeah. I mean, like, earning it, earning those lives. I mean, it's going to happen, you know, to everybody and then you wind up and I'm nursing home and you're talking to a spatula, you know? And hopefully, when I'm in that kind of, I won't remember how wonderful it was to have this

career, right? Hopefully, I'll have, you know, I won't even know my own name, hopefully,

because to be there and to remember joy, right? And know that you'll never experience it again,

will be, you know, pretty ugly. I said that like somebody who's like, has stage 4 key. It's wrong. There's nothing wrong with me. I'm not, you know, I don't foresee any end to this. I mean, as long as people come, and maybe toward the end, I'll have to pay people to come, but, and their money will flow in the other direction. That would be kind of a fitting, a fitting conclusion to your career, I think.

Well, want to be close with the section of the book in which you've just done a good deed for someone, it was a stranger, like you moved a piece of furniture for them, a cabinet down York, Avenue, back to her apartment, and we pick up with the two of you part ways. This is from Chapter, "Cash and Carry." We waved goodbye and then parted, saying we'd maybe see each other in the neighborhood. As I hurried downtown, a man sitting on the ground outside a liquor store,

held out an empty cup, helped the homeless? It irritates me when, by the homeless, people mean themselves. It should be help one of the homeless I wanted to say. Otherwise, it sounds like you're going to take whatever you collect and distribute it to other people in need. The man saw all of this playing out on my face and barked quite unfairly, in my opinion, I hope you burn in hell.

can always in a different spot. There are times when being condemned to hell really gets under my skin.

“Am I a terrible personal ask myself, am I cruel than most? Am I thoughtless? If I'm cursed by a”

mentally ill person, I'll really dig in and claw it myself. I've always seen them as prophets, and hold my breath as I pass, afraid of the truth they might reveal. And my first year in New York, not long after the little golden books episode, a woman dressed in rags at the Staten Island fairy terminal, looked me in the eye and told me that I was going to die before I reached 50, thousands of people moving about like ants, yet I was the one she singled out. Her voice was

clear and authoritative like an oracles. Our brief encounter really lit a fire under me. I've only got 16 years to make a splash, I thought. Knowing that time would pass a lot faster than I'd want it to. When I didn't die at age 50, when I woke up in Paris, as alive as I'd been in the day before, I was shocked, but also greatly relieved from my life was good by then, and I didn't want it taken away from me. This time now I walked on my burn-in hell indeed, I thought.

First off, the guy on the sidewalk outside the liquor store was a drunk, not an oracle. Second, I had just helped a stranger carry a cabinet down York Avenue for what felt to me and probably to her as well like an eternity, and a person gets points for things like that.

“When authors say that writing is cathartic, does that make any sense to you?”

Yeah, it makes sense, but I've never felt it to be cathartic. It helps me make sense of the world.

And it helps me see myself. When I was young, no one knows never really my problem. I never really wrote about my feelings in my diary. That's really embarrassing. If you look through an old diary and it's all about your feelings, if it's about a conversation you had at the barber shop, that's not embarrassing, right? I could put out a whole book of haircuts, just the haircuts I've had over the years, and conversations with different barbers. Every one of them is

recounted in my diary. I don't recall ever getting a haircut and not writing about it afterwards. If writing isn't cathartic for you, if it doesn't exactly fix anything, even when you're writing about your own history or your friends and family, what is it that draws you back day after day, morning after morning? You know, after you finish your Apple Watch jog and your dual-lingo session, and you go back to the paid Y over and over,

do you keep doing it? I want to be better. I want to be better at everything,

“and the only way to get better at everything is to work harder. That's what I tell myself.”

I say that to myself, umpteen times a day, work harder, like you're not working hard enough. But that's the promise, right? That you could be better, that you couldn't write better, that you couldn't understand better, that you can speak a language better, that you can be a better person, but it's not going to happen by accident. You have to work at it, and so that's what puts me at my desk, and that's what gets me out of bed every day is just thinking,

because I have proof. If I look back at my first book, you know, and it's the best I could do

with the time, right? But you couldn't pay me to read that thing now, right? And the only way I got better was by working. So, if I could get that much better in this amount of time, if I just look at the time that I have left to live, I can get a lot better at everything between now and then. David, thank you for all the time. That was so nice to be to have me on. I really appreciate it. David, to Derek, spoke with guest interviewer Sam Fragoso. David's

no collection of personal essays is called the land and its people. Sam hosts the interview podcast, talk easy. After we take a short break, John Powers will review two international mysteries. This is fresh air. Hi, it's Mary the Rees Kelly. My podcast sources and methods is one of the top-rated National Security shows on Apple, average rating 4.9 out of 5. We're one of the best for a reason. Correspondence around the world, veteran journalists, trusted analysis and on the ground

from NPR. Our critic at large John Powers has loved mysteries ever since he first read the

“hearty boys as a kid. Over the years, he has developed a taste for crime fiction from other countries.”

He's just read two excellent new ones, the first from Algeria, the other from Italy, and he says

that both steer clear of the formulas of our own mystery fiction. I've always loved mystery novels

that take me inside different cultures. Well, lots of English language crime writers are good at evoking other lands. Think of Philip Kers Nazi Berlin or Karablach's Paris. The richest portraits come to us in translations of books by homegrown writers. These have the revelatory tang you get when novelists know their culture from the inside. As it happens, two terrific novels of this kind have just come out from bitter lemon press, a small London publisher that specializes

in translated mysteries. These new books could hardly be less alike, except for one thing.

“Each is in its unconventional way, quite brilliant. The end of the Sahara is a kaleidoscopic”

murder mystery by the Algerian writer Said Hatibi, a rising star who just won the international prize for Arabic fiction. Suppurably translated by Alexander E. Ellenson, the book set in a provincial city on the edge of the Sahara in 1988 Algeria, a troubled time when the ruling socialist government has clearly failed. But you don't need to know Algerian history to get sucked in by the plot, which centers on the murder of Zakia Zagwani, a nightclub singer at a local hotel called

the Sahara. Burning with urgency, the story is told by a big cast of characters who all speak to

us in first person. There's E. Bertim, a college grad who's been reduced to dealing in illegal

videos. There's the hotel owner, a shifty wheeler dealer who fancies Zakia. There's Zakia's fiancé butcher, a decent guy found with blood on his shirt. He's the top suspect of Inspector Hamid, a corrupt womanizing cop who also fancies Zakia. Butcher's represented by his cousin Nura, a good-hearted lawyer who's constantly derided for reaching 30 without a husband. As we move from suspect to suspect, Hatibi not only makes us feel the textures of these characters

everyday lives, the looks and smells, the food shortages, and emerging Islamic militancy.

But he definitely unveils how they are all trapped together in a spider web of lies and betrayal

that began in the past. Using 1988 Algeria as a mirror for the present day, Hatibi gives us an x-ray of an entire social structure. Even as we learn who kills Zakia, we realize that no one escapes the bone-deep misogyny that underlies her murder and the repressive post-colonial politics that leave Algerian spinning in circles. As one character thinks bitterly, it was as if this country's history just repeats itself, rather than moving forward.

“Not surprisingly, life is far cusier along the prosperous Tuscan coast. That's the setting”

for an Enigma by the sea, a new addition of the 1991 novel by the legendary Italian team of Carlo Futerro and Franco-Lugentini. Whitty, area-dite, and socialist stout, they play with the mysteries genre as they explore the many sides of Italianness. The places the Gualdana, a pine protected seaside enclave where the well-off have holiday villas. A certain era of secrecy hangs over it, the opening tells us enticingly. The time is winter when only a few residents are around.

There an assortment of Italian types that includes a rich disaffected Roman couple, a flandering count who's arrived with his latest conquest, a fame-hungry model, an old woman addicted to reading terror cards, and a smung politician's stewing in paranoia. You get a whiff of upstairs downstairs in the relation between these moneyed folks and the locals who service their many needs, the security guards, the rye police commander, and the village handyman who is also, everyone knows, the village

cuckold. Deliciously translated by Gregory Dowling, an Anigma by the sea starts off like a gently asterbit comedy of manners, as these self-absorbed characters go about killing time, chatting, flirting, bickering, having tea. Then suddenly the story shifts. Three residents inexplicably disappear. Could they have been murdered? Here? The question unleashes the sleuding instincts of their

scrutinizing every single thing for clues to impending disaster. Masters of the light-fantastic

“Frutero and Luchentini roll out their mystery with the slightest of touches, weaving discussions”

of the Greek cynics and the nature of depression into their drool evocation of a grey,

chilly, off-season resort, with its windstorms and dire pizza reas. If Hattibi shows us characters

caught in the tragic flames of history, Frutero and Luchentini look at human folly with a cool

“almost ancient amusement, and what strange, funny creatures we all are. John Powers reviewed”

the end of Sahara and an enigma by the sea. Tomorrow on Fresh Air, our guest will be Ben Rhodes.

He was a speech writer and deputy national security advisor for President Obama. Rhodes has written a new book collecting and commenting on someone most inspiring and the most

“divisive political speeches in American history. It's called All We Say, the Battle for American”

Identity, a history in 15 speeches. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. Fresh Air is executive producer as Sam Brigger, our technical director and engineers are of you, Benthum. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, and Reble de Nado, Lauren Crenzel, Teresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thia Challener,

Sisenucundi, Annabalman, and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Mali Sivine Esper. Roberta Shorot, directs the show, our co-host is Tonya Mosley, I'm Terry Gross. You know that feeling when you hear a great tip and it's like, "That makes so much sense! Why haven't I been doing that all this time?" If that's you, you might like life kit. Whether you're looking to make changes around your health, your money, your relationships,

your parenting, your guaranteed the "This is so helpful" feeling. Listen to the life kit podcast in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.