Ebon Moss-Bachrach on ‘The Bear’

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This is Fresh Air. I'm TV critic David Beancooley. The bear, the FX series about people running a Chicago restaurant, has won 21 Emmy Awards so far and is nominated for eight more for its fourth season. Including, for guest actress Jamie Lee Curtis and guest actor Rob Reiner. The show's fifth and final season currently is running weekly on FX and streaming in its entirety on Hulu. And the bear is ending with a bang, not a whimper.

Today on Fresh Air, we'll listen back to an interview from last year with Evan Moss Backwreck, who's already won two Emmys for the role of Richie, the family friend who now co-runs the restaurant known as the bear.

“And I'll start with an appreciation and overview of the TV series, because the bear has been a delectable treat from start to finish.”

Christopher Storer created and unveiled the bear in 2022, telling the story of a talented chef, Carmen Berzato, who left home to train an "emission-in-starred" restaurant. He returns to Chicago after the suicide of his brother Mikey, who had run a small sandwich shop. Carmen played by Jeremy Allen White from Showtime Shameless, designed to help his family by taking charge of the family business, and eventually transforming it into a high-end restaurant. His family includes his sister Sugar, played by Abby Elliott, and their unstable mom played by Jamie Lee Curtis.

There's also a large unofficial extended family, childhood friends and loved ones who call themselves cousins or uncles.

In its first season, the bear hit TV within toxicating originality.

Its characters were compelling and the cast was talented. White's portrayal of Carmen was a study in both commitment and torment. Sydney, the new employee, played by Iowa Debrie, rose quickly through the ranks due to her obvious vision and talent. But she, like the other chefs and staff members, had as much baggage as inspiration. The bear started out as part soap opera and part celebration of fine food.

Each episode presented montages of the preparation and presentation of various dishes while examining the effort and emotional toll of doing that day after day. The bear built itself and still does as a comedy, and is won all its Emmys in that category. But to me, watching the bear is as tense as watching the pit, and that's not a casually chosen reference. By season two, the bear was like a hot new restaurant with rave reviews, everyone wanted to visit, and in terms of guest stars, almost everybody did.

A brilliant program from that season was a flashback episode showing Christmas dinner with the extended family, and look who showed up on the guest list. John Bernthal from the walking dead as Mikey, their older brother was there, even though in this show's narrative he would die by suicide soon after. Also at the dinner table, Oliver Platt is Uncle Jimmy, Bob Odenkirk is Uncle Lee, Sarah Paulson as cousin Michelle and John Malaney as family friend Stevie. At dinner, Uncle Lee is goating Mikey for repeating old stories. Mikey responds by throwing a dinner fork at him, and it only gets more tense from there.

“Cut it out. Rich? Hey, look, here's the thing. You see, I can throw forks, because this is our father's house.”

Rich, my father's house. Okay, you get everyone's attention, so go ahead and tell us a story we've all heard a million times of rich.

That's good, Lee. Yeah, tell the story about how you live with your mom, and you're borrowing money off of her and any other sucker who listen to your bull. You're one of the suckers, Jimmy, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I've told him, I told him not to listen to you, I told him not to help, I told him to tell you to go scratch. Thanks a whole block, but you come back next year. Okay, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, because this guy's nothing and he's nobody, and I know you're scared and you're afraid, aren't you Michael?

And Michael, I don't know what the f*** you're on, but whatever it is, if you can hear me through the fog, throw another fork at me, you're going to get f***ed! Subsequent seasons of the bear have charted the restaurants rise and fall, and through additional flashback episodes given us deep dives into the pasts of various characters. Last season ended with the restaurant facing closure, but this new final season is all about staying afloat for one more day.

On a day when supplies are down to almost nothing, there's a massive storm hitting Chicago, and there's a glitch in the reservation system that has them facing way more diners than they can handle. The bear books each evening's tables to account for a number of turns, the total times each table can be cleared for a new service in a given evening. The staff is expecting lots of cancellations because of the horrible weather, but Evan Moss backpack is richy, delivers the latest news to the rest of the staff.

With as always plenty of explodives.

“Turn, can you please say that we have at least one turn?”

Okay. Well, we have some reservations. Oh, yes, of course, you're seven-thirty. Excuse me, we're at three. Three turns. Three turns. Three turns. Yes, we're going to maximum. No, no, no, we're going to get destroyed. What's up? Oh, we're at three turns. What? That's impossible. Check it. Why's everybody staying in the ramp? Oh my god. Oh my god. Richie, what? We're at three turns? Why is everybody freaking out? You know, cousin, you probably did three turns all the time. Yeah, no.

Absolutely, at the best restaurant in the world with 100 employees, a lot of money and 13 lives. So we have not that.

To be positive, shocker. This is incredible. Yes, we need the money. Yes, correct.

We won't get the money if we can't handle this. We do not have enough food for three full turns. Yeah, correct. No, I understand that this is a lot of people. I get that, but we're going to circle our wagons and we're going to turn this into a champagne problem. At the end of this season, the bear is shutting its doors. It does so with a beautiful final episode. One that is both emotional and satisfying and which serves all its characters well. But I can't help feeling a little sad and not just because Abby Elliott, who broke out as a cast member of Saturday Night Live,

was so quietly moving in her dramatic scenes this final season that she brought me to tears.

“And now I'm sad to have to say goodbye to the bear. But if you haven't visited it, you should, and still can.”

All five seasons are available on Hulu. Now, let's listen to the interview fresh airs Ann Marie Baldwin Auto did last year with Evan Moss backwreck, who plays Richie on the bear. They began with a scene from the first episode of the series. Richie is dealing with the recent death of his best friend in business partner Michael, and the return of Michael's younger brother, Carmie, who has plans to transform the neighborhood sandwich shop Richie used to run with Michael. Here's Evan Moss backwreck is Richie with Jeremy Allen White as Carmie and I/O Adabri as Sydney.

Well, let's just have a conversation for a second. Whoa, this is Sydney, I'm starting today. You're wedding today, Sydney. She's helping us out today. Cause you ordered different mayonnaise brawls banana? No, all you're chef. Oh, you chef, this fifth. He was using them to make a giant knuckles. It was a play on a penitone. It would have been beautiful if you let me finish it all right.

Richie Jeremiah, Richie Jeremiah, pleasure to meet you, sweetheart. Say sweet, how'd you do that? Don't harm your soul. I mean, nothing by it. Sydney, same sweet arch, just part of our Italian heritage.

I'm trying to talk to you, okay? Don't be rude and start doing a million things like this.

I know I have in time to take your mom for six. I got all kinds of receipts from my divorce lawyer back and up. Cause all the time I'm trying to put your family back together because you're too much of a sh**ker to come home. The guys are texting me. You tell them when to do all sorts of weird sh**bakers. Don't do that, Carmen. Don't go mix and win their heads in order and different mayonnaise and hot air and new fries without a pocket of meat first. This is your brother's house, okay? Yeah, remember? I was running it fine without you.

On you leave it to you then. Evan Moss, backwreck. Welcome to Fresh Air. Thanks. Thank you. I know that you're very protective of the characters that you play. So I want, you know, I mean this in the best possible way.

“I think that Richie is the character I've done the most dramatic 180 on.”

Maybe ever. We just heard Richie from the beginning of the series. But as a show goes on, I know I'm not alone when I say that we're rooting for Richie. I feel that in many ways he's the heart of the show, which is a testament to the rating and to your performance. What did you know early on about the journey that Richie was going to take? I knew that this was a man who was suffering, who was finding himself in a world that he didn't really recognize anymore.

And somebody in that position, I think that kind of a part can hold a lot of volatile, dangerous, spontaneous behavior, sort of like a lot can be justified by somebody who's finding for their survival. And then as somebody who's at a certain point in my life, I also related to this guy I'm just seeing, you know, so many things that I loved. In my neighborhood, in my city, changing and seeing things everything becoming a bank, you know, I really related to him in that way.

I will say that the bear can be a pretty stressful watch, you know, there's yelling, often adrenaline always.

“And there's, you know, this anxiety that pulses throughout a lot of the time, what is it like to film? Does it feel that pitched as you're doing it? Does it feel that like high octane?”

It's funny for me to think about like a set that would be like how the how the scenes are like they call cut and then everyone screaming at each other and putting out the cigarettes that we're in the scene and the lighting up cigarettes that they're going to smoke in between takes. I mean, to make something that alive feeling in a way, I think, you know, it takes an enormous amount of rehearsal between the actors between the actors and the camera department, the props department, like we have such a deep and wonderful crew that, you know, it really requires a lot of sensitivity and listening.

I think the people involved in making the bear listen a lot more than Richie, Sydney and Carmen. So it's a very loving, fun, calm, well-run set. I want to play a scene from season three of the show. The restaurant is getting off the ground, but both Richie and Carmen are still battling. They've just had a huge fight on the first day of service for friends and family and they really yelled hateful things in each other.

The character Richie even calls Carmen DD, which is Carmen's mom's name and calling that maybe one of the biggest insults Richie could give because, you know, that mom is pretty, you know, troubled.

Anyway, they're trying to get back on track and have the restaurant be successful, but they have different ideas about how to do that. So here's the scene. Hey, chefs, have you seen my iron? Also, when you have a sec, would you ask Chef Carmen with the f***ing of my tables? Chef said, would you please tell Richard that I thought I would set him up for success and arrange his tables in a more efficient pattern?

“Yes, that's what I did. It was really funny. I walked in, you know, so strange. It looked like the person who had done it previously and never left the city of Chicago.”

I couldn't leave the city of Chicago out of it. Zero flow, no efficiency, so I thought I'd give you a hand.

Chef said, would you tell Chef Carmen that I can give him a f***ing of your f***ing, you know?

I just might suggest that the both of you stop because I don't like this at all. Chef Carmen uses power phrases because he's a baby replicant who's not self-actualized, which is maybe why he repeatedly referred to me as a loser. Richie, I apologize. No, no, it's not good. I don't need your apology. I know how you feel now. Also, I respect your honesty and bravery from inside a locked bowl.

No, what matter of fact, Chef Sidney? I don't remember Richard apologizing for all the f***ing. He was literally screaming at me while I was in the frame. I love you? No, what? You know what? Out there, that's my dojo.

F*** it's rearranged without my approval or consent, it creates an environment of fear and fear does not exist in that dojo. Richard? I added more two tops because all those four tops were nonsense. Four tops are no problem. I lose the whole hours, but you just...

That was a lot of fun. I lose the whole hours, I lose the whole hours. You're not apologizing and you're screaming. Come on. Yeah, yeah, you are. Oh yeah, that's fine. I don't know what to do right now. That's a scene from season three of the bear with Ayodabri, Jeremy Allen White, and Eben Moss, backwreck.

“When a scene is like that with that much screaming, is it written that way or are you sort of improvising how you approach the arguing?”

That scene. It's a quote "walter" in the Big Lebowski. Eight-year-olds, dude. That scene was as written. I mean, you know, at this point in Richie's life, you know, he's trying to do some work, he's reading some self-help books, and, you know, I don't really have that kind of vernacular at my disposal, like, you know, all the self-actualization. And I'm sure there were some changes in words from take to take, but yeah, I wouldn't call it like improvising.

And because of flashbacks, we know that it seems like, on the timeline, as recently as five years ago, Richie and his wife were together,

they were about to have a baby, and they were very much together, but by the time we meet Richie five years later, his marriage is over and his ex-wife is with someone else, and I want to play a scene from that episode for X. Richie is working at the Michelin Star Restaurant for that week. He's taking a break and gets a phone call from his ex-wife, played by Gillian Jacobs. Hey, hey, how are you? I'm a...I'm great, I'm great, you know.

What's going on? Is he okay? No, she's great, she's totally great, yeah. Oh, you know, Jim, um, I got those Taylor Swift ticks. You did it? Yeah.

'Cause I'm big, she's going to be so excited.

I know, right? That's incredible.

“I got three if you want to come, you know, you don't have to.”

No, no, no, no, that's so sweet, that's so sweet. Um, I, I just, uh, I know you're really busy, so I wanted to just tell you something. Um, and it's a little bit hard to say. Okay, are you all right? I'm fine, yeah, I'm fine.

I just want you to hear it from me.

Um, um, um, um, Frank proposed to me.

What'd you say? I said yes. He's like a really good guy. That's great, too. Thank you.

I, I don't want you to know that nothing's going to change between us. That's awesome. Yeah. Um. And I love you.

That's a scene from season two of the bear. Well, we learned more about what happened to their marriage in that relatively short period of time. Yeah, that scene bear, a comedy. Um, you have a different role. Yeah, the killing Jacob such as such a great actress.

I love working there. Unfortunately, most of her scenes are phone calls. They don't have much of a relationship anymore. Actually, I do think there's a lot of tenderness there and she was she genuinely loves him.

“Um, do we learn more about what happened with them?”

We spend more time with them together as parents, as exes. In terms of like a literal sense of like a flashback of the two of them, that's not something that we've shot. I think one thing that makes viewers love Richie is the way that he is with his daughter. Even though he's divorced, he's so devoted to her and doing the right thing by her and trying to be a good dad. Um, besides having what seems like a tough upbringing where he sort of, you know, so much so that it becomes part of the family that own the restaurant.

Um, you have two daughters and I think that being a parent of girls can be very, very specific parenting experience. What did you want to make sure that you brought to Richie as a father? I mean, some of the things that are, that are challenging for him and making it difficult for him to navigate his way through the world. Like loyalty honesty in a way, you know, these things I think are sometimes hindrances and sometimes, you know, the really great qualities. And I wanted, I wanted to see the kind of converse of some of these things in his relationship with his daughter.

Obviously, you know, he's a dad that would do anything for his daughter, like so many parents, like most parents I would say. And then he's really into her world and where he doesn't listen as well on the outside with her, he, his time with her is so limited that it's so valuable.

“And I think each minute is something that he really invests himself and tries to be present in a way that he's not when he's at the restaurant.”

There's a scene later in that episode where Richie has completely won everyone over at the fancy restaurant. He's really getting it and getting the value of his work and he's driving home singing along to the Taylor Swift song Love Story. And it's this great triumphant moment for Richie, how did that moment come about? It's just such a great moment. It's so nice to spend just a few minutes like singing something loudly and celebrating and having exuberance and driving and singing along with the song that you love loudly.

Evan Mossbackwreck, speaking to fresh airs and Marie Baldenado last year.

The bear in which he co-stars as Richie is presenting its final season on FX and Hooray. And Justin Chang reviews one of the most eagerly awaited films of the year, Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. I'm David Bean Kooley and this is fresh air. President Trump, it is the greatest threat to our country. It's trying to tie Democrats to communism, including World War II or even 9/11.

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“Let's get back to our 2025 interview with actor Evan Moss backwreck,”

who co-stars as Richie on the acclaimed FX series The Bear. It's now streaming its fifth and final season on Hulu. Moss backwreck won two Emmys for the role. He also starred as Desi in the TV series Girls, and stars as Ben Grimm,

aka The Thing, in the Marvel film The Fantastic Four First Steps.

Just this month, the stage production of Dog Day afternoon completed its run on Broadway, with Moss backwreck in a starring role. He spoke to Fresh Air's Ann Marie Baldonato. One of the first film roles you had was in the West Anderson film The Royal Ten and Bounce. You played a bellboy at the hotel where Royal Ten and Bounce played by Jean Hackman,

where he lives. Here's a little bit of that scene. Or all of that scene. There's a coffee in Mr. Ten and Bounce. Who is it, Frederick?

A Mr. Pagoda? That's you in the Royal Ten most.

“What was it like being in this film? Was it one of the first times you were on a set?”

And what do you remember about it? I rewatch that movie the other day with one of my kids. God, it's such a good movie. Yes. I'm so happy to be part of it, even in this tiny, tiny little way.

And I think finally enough time has gone by,

where I was like, you know what? I'm pretty good at Frederick the Bell. I'm okay. It was the second time I was on a set. Probably my first time in such a fancy hotel.

I remember mostly West Anderson's attention to detail, him coming down like a tailor and sort of adjusting the hem of my pants, fixing my hair, adjusting my little pill box hat. I mean, I got that part because I had a quite a good head of hair. Yeah, at the time you had kind of curly hair that comes out of the pill box,

sort of at the bottom. Yeah, exactly. It kind of explodes. It's like an upside down volcano or something. Well, one of your breakout roles was in the TV show girls.

You started out as a guest star who was only going to be in a few episodes, but then became a series regular. When viewers meet you, you're auditioning for a Broadway play, and you meet the character Adam, who's played by Adam Driver, who's also auditioning and just starting out.

And by the way, Desi is a successful actor. You know, he auditioned for a Broadway play, and he got the role. How did you see Desi? I saw him as a little bit of a con man,

really well put together on the outside,

a bit of a surcher.

I feel like he was not committed necessarily the acting.

He was a musician. I'm sure he painted. And a lot of maybe like clothing. If I'm being like really not charitable, like maybe pre-distressed.

Yeah. Jeans. Yeah, better pre-distressed denim. Yeah. But also, you know, somebody that felt very deeply,

loved it deeply, a baby. Yeah. A little bit. I want to play a scene from girls. Here Desi is a regular cast member,

and is now with the character Marny. They started out as a musical duo with some success, eventually Marny and Desi get married, but they're also this musical duo too. In this scene, they're arguing about what music to use

in their upcoming showcase for a record label,

“which is important to their future career as musicians.”

Here's the scene. You know what? We should open our showcase with the song. We only get two songs for the showcase. Yes, we get an opener and closer,

and this should be our opener. Yeah, I mean, this is a great song. But this is not one of our top two. What do you like better? Raddlestick, cow girl, heart for sale.

Well, wonderful. Some from Marcus Garvey. Walk of Blues. Cocopelli, Shelley. I mean, that's top six right there.

Hmm. Yeah, I know. I just feel like it's our chance to show some range. Okay. See, when I think about the showcase,

we put our best foot forward. Agreed. And if half of our set is a therapy, love song has a total mislead, baby, you know? But we sing love songs.

Really? We sing like modern American folk within any edge. I tell people that we're like shandhem, but with actual romance. But we're nothing like shandhem.

We're not. Whoa. You're blowing my mind right now. I'm learning. I hope we're like shandhem, my God.

We are nothing. Are you kidding me right now? You're freaking me out. We are nothing like shandhem, okay? We are nothing like that band.

How can we have completely different takes on the same band that we are both in? That is bizarre to me. I'm starting to wonder if maybe you don't like close up because I wrote it instead of you.

No, I like this song. I love this song. Okay. What do you mean love to this song? And then you told me that you're writing shandhem songs

and now like my whole, I gotta do a heavy rethink here. How about we talk about the partnership that I thought we were in? We were as recently.

Recently, it's just been me writing while you'd tinker with your motorcycle. That's my motor transportation. That's my motor transportation. That's my motor transportation.

That's my motor transportation. That doesn't change anything. That's how I could-- That's weak, dude. That's my motor transportation.

That's a scene from girls.

“Did you watch girls at the time when it was airing?”

I didn't. No.

I watched a little bit of it the first season,

but I also was, I was like so jealous that I really wanted to be a part of it. And so it was complicated for me to watch it. It was filming right there. It was filming like right by you.

Yeah, exactly. Now let's see it walk by. And then once I was working on it, I wouldn't watch it much just because I didn't want it to sort of affect the way I was going to continue to work on it.

You know, I didn't want it to make me self-conscious. What do you think of that scene? Oh, my god. That scene. That list of songs is really funny.

Really funny. Evan Mossbackrack spoke to fresh airs and Marie Baldenado in 2025. More after a break, this is fresh air. On Consider This, NPR's afternoon news podcast

we cover everything for politics to the economy to the world, but every story starts with a question. And NPR, we stand for your right to be curious to make sense of the biggest story of the day and what it means for you.

Follow Consider This, wherever you get your podcasts. Everyone wants to know if AI is conscious, but consciousness is really hard to define. It's the experience we're having right now.

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So how do we know who or what is conscious? Check out the new way scientists are finding to measure the elusive phenomenon on shortwave. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air. Let's get back to Ann Marie Baldenado's 2025 interview with actor Evan Mossbackrack

who co-stars his richie on the bear. Next month, you truly enter your Marvel era. You've been in the Marvel universe before, but you're becoming a main character in the new movie,

the fantastic four first steps.

You play the character, Ben Graham,

This first movie is coming out, and then you'll

reprise your role in the two new upcoming Avenger films. So you're definitely, you know, in for more than one movie. What was it like being in this film? You have very different kind of part for me. I guess the biggest departure would be that it's motion capture,

performance capture. So I wear these groovy looking pyjama kind of tights and top, and then I have wires, strapped to various points of my body, and then I have a helmet with kind of GoPro looking cameras,

kind of on a little extended gimbals right in front of my nose, to sort of capture my eyes and my mouth and my facial expressions.

“And where are you doing what's spacer when you're doing this?”

I'm in on the set, you know, and I haven't seen the movie yet, but one thing I do know is that the art department in our production design is really spectacular. So we did, so they're really pretty incredible set builds,

like things that I'd never seen before.

That reminded me of like old style, like DW Griffith kind of like movie making huge, big sprawling sets of New York, and time square, and the lower side and credible mid-century modern, house that the fantastic for living.

So I'm just on all these really cool sets, and very much involved as I would be, you know, I'm just in there with the other people in the scene, and I'm interacting with them, and they're in costumes, and I'm just sort of in this other

strange techie kind of, you know, placeholder, for what then be built around me animated, you know, this much bigger orange rock guy.

“Can you describe your character, Ben Grimm, who is the thing?”

I'm not sure how much of the original story from the comic book series, and from other movies are still part of this character. You know, people feel so strongly about this. He can't stray too far from the pan.

You gotta keep it pretty cannon. Ben is from the Lower East Side, it's from Eancy Street, which is maybe like a little bit like the Lancy Street, maybe. And he's a school friend of Reed Richards. He's a football player, he's a wrestler.

He becomes a star pilot, really amazing pilot,

and Reed is this genius scientist, that convinced his Ben and his wife Sue, and her brother to go up and steal the ship and go into outer space. And there's like a storm, some kind of space storm, and these gamma rays penetrate the ship,

and they all return changed forever. Ben is more changed because he is physically been altered, he has this new rock kind of dermis. So he looks like a monster, and he doesn't change back and forth like the Hulk or anything.

That's just how he is for the rest of his life. With a couple of exceptions. Oh, that's right, yeah, your character stays as a rock.

“Yeah, that's really key to his psyche, I think.”

I haven't seen the fantastic for you, but I like that you're playing another character that has this rock exterior. In this case, literally he's made a rock. You've said that this acting impaired to your other roles. It's almost like another job,

I was thinking that you show so much emotion through your face and through your physicality. What did you mean that it's almost a different kind of job? What are other ways that it's different? I would think about it a lot in two ways.

And over the course of a day, like my brain would go back and forth. One speed was that I was just starting to imbue this character with as much humanity as I could. Because I felt like I had in some ways fight through all of this animation,

and I was interested in, I think it kind of was similar to Ben's experience on a day where he knows how he seems, and he knows he looks like this horrible monster. And so he's making concerted effort to bring his humanity through to make people feel okay, to make people feel less,

to make people be less mean towards him, to sort undercut his external appearance. So I had that, that was going in one way. While simultaneously I was had all this physical freedom, and that in many ways this technology and this animation

was like I'm a mask, and I had, I wasn't confined to my body and my physical appearance the way that I am, any other part I've ever done. So there were things I could do with movement, with heaviness,

huge feet the way he would interact with things.

So that became a much more imaginative fantasy, sort of almost like how I would play make believe when I was a kid.

“So you are thinking about movement in a different way?”

Yeah, well certainly, I mean, I had to. He can't really move the way that I can move. I mean, he's very, very heavy with thousands of pounds at the same time, he's very nimble, but I mean, I'm a kind of uncoordinated,

lanky sort of, I don't know. What rubber band or something. So he's as much heavier grounded dude. Now, it was recently announced that you will be on Broadway next year in a stage play, Dog Day afternoon.

It's based on the same real-life robbery that the 1975 movie Dog Day afternoon was based on. You start with John Berthall, who is someone you coasted out with in the bear. You're also on the show, The Punisher with him,

and I think you've done plays together. I actually read that you recommended him for the part of Michael on the bear. Is that true? Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, I got John that job. So he came in this dog day after New England. So now, no reason. Well, it's a way in, you know,

“what was it about him that you thought would be good for Michael?”

Who's the best friend of, you know, the brother who passed away, who committed suicide? And we don't really seem correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't really see him at all in the first season until maybe just the very end of the season in a flashback.

I think that. I remember remembering that correctly. I think something like that. And in my mind, when I was reading the scripts,

I kind of felt like we would never see him.

And I thought that that was probably the way to play it, because he's so talked about he's the specter sort of informing everything. And I just thought it would be disappointing, or maybe I just liked that idea of let everybody in the audience, let them have their own idea of who this person is,

who's larger than life. And so when Chris Thor, our showrunner, was asking me if I thought of any ideas for who could be playing Michael Brazil. I was like, I don't think we should ever see him.

I just think that was just diminished, because anything. And then at one point I did, I was like, you know what, actually, Johnny's such a larger than life, magnetic, charismatic person.

“I was like, you know, what would you think about John Burntle?”

And I suspect that Chris all along was sort of encouraging me to reach out to John. I think I'm pretty sure that he all along. This was just waiting for me to come to this realization. When I think John, John's, you know,

terrific, really, really great in this part. And also like one of the few actors that could fill the shoes of this guy. What is your connection to the story and the film dog day afternoon? Because you'll be playing the role of Sal, which was originated by the actor, John Casal,

who appeared in only five movies before passing away to young. But the five movies were the godfather, the conversation. Godfather part two, dog day after noon, and the deer hunter. He was also a theater actor, like an actor's actor. I was wondering if a young Evan Moss backpack dreamed of having

an acting career like John Casal.

Oh 100%. I mean, what a gift. What an incredible gift he was.

The other conversations, like, probably my favorite movie. I mean, it's a tragedy that he died so young, but I mean, yeah, and it's in his short time here. Oh my gosh, what a force. So yeah, I do feel, you know, it's like,

I'll try to do my best to honor this guy, but we're going to make it a bit different. Something else. Yeah, so it's based on the same source material, which was this true story of a bank robbery that happened in New York.

And that became the movie, but the playwright is going back to that original material. Yeah, there's a lot of stuff going on in that robbery, and before that robbery, that's not in the movie. That's really interesting that we're digging into. There's a lot there.

When you announce something like that, a Broadway show that you do next year, what is the process of preparing? Because I'm sure you're doing other things too, but is it just that that sort of when it fits into your schedule? Or do you do things in the year, lead up, or both?

My process right now is to pretend that it's not happening for as long as possible, and to delay, delay, delay. But yeah, I don't know, I'm very, very, very excited to do this thing and to spend a few months with my dear friend, John,

I like nothing more than working on new American plays.

“It's kind of my favorite thing to do to be in that rehearsal room”

when the writer's there, the writer's alive, the there, it's a work in progress. It's a deep, deep collaboration between writer director, drama-terror, and the whole cast. It's like everyone's getting their hands dirty,

feels very alive and exciting. And it's been a long time since I've done that. Evan Moss, backwreck. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you, thanks so much for having me.

Evan Moss, backwreck, speaking last year to fresh air's Ann Marie Baldenado. The bear, in which he co-stars as Richie,

is presenting its final season on FX and Hulu.

The bear is nominated for eight more Emmys at this year's Emmy Awards, which will be presented in September. Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. This is fresh air.

“This week on newsmakers, I'm a surprise you even had me on.”

You can meet again Bill Marr on his Mark Twain Award and the lost art of political debate. Just engage with the argument. Tell me if I'm wrong about something. And then we're going to be cool.

But that's not what either extreme does in this country anymore. Bill Marr on this week's newsmakers. Watch or listen. Wherever you get your podcasts. This season on Plenty Summer School,

we go to China, one of the world's biggest economy. And what we learned is Americans are crazy. Chinese are crazy. These are two countries full of these crazy hustlers. The US and China are more alike than you might think. On Plenty Summer School, a strange lesson about success

how to handle the downsides of progress. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air. In Christopher Nolan's much anticipated adaptation of Homer's Odyssey, Matt Damon stars as the ancient Greek warrior king Odysseus,

who, after fighting in the Trojan wars, spends years trying to find his way home to Ithaca. The star-filled ensemble cast also features Anne Hathaway, Tom Holland, and Robert Pattinson. The Odyssey opens in theaters everywhere this week. Our film critic Justin Chang has this review.

Both admirers and detractors of the writer-director Christopher Nolan have noted his longstanding obsession with dead wives. In movies like Momento, The Prestige, and Inception, the male protagonists are driven toward reckless, delusional, and even vengeful acts by the memories of their late spouses.

One of the refreshing novelties of Nolan's new film, The Odyssey, is that the wife and question here is alive and well. She's Penelope, Queen of Ithaca, played by Anne Hathaway. And her husband Odysseus, played by Matt Damon, spends two decades trying to return home to her after the Trojan War.

Nolan, working largely from Emily Wilson celebrated 2017 translation of Homer's epic poem, lays out the story in unexpectedly straightforward fashion. Penelope and her son, Tlemicus, that's Tom Holland, claimed to hope that Odysseus will return. Meanwhile, course suitors have taken over the palace,

vying for Penelope's hand in remarriage. Robert Pattinson plays the most conniving of the lot,

who tells Penelope that Odysseus will never return.

"He's the household, waiting for master." "I want you to choose me." "If it is came, it's coming back." "No, he's not." But Odysseus is in fact still alive on a distant island.

His memory has been bewitched by the nymph Kalypso, that's Charlie's Theron. And the story of his long, long journey tumbles out in a cascade of flashbacks. The jumbled timeline suits Nolan's love of nonlinear plotting.

Still, I had a lot of questions going in. How would a filmmaker known for his narrative surprises

“tackle one of the best known stories in all literature?”

And how would a director of heavy, high-tech action movies adapt to Homer's ancient world of gods and monsters? The gods themselves are largely absent, with the exception of Athena, who pops up every so often in the form of Zendaya

to counsel Odysseus. Nolan is a downbeat realist by nature, which gives the Odyssey a fascinating tension. It's a fantasy made by a skeptic at heart. The supernatural elements have been tapped down.

When the island dwelling sorceress Cersei briefly transforms Odysseus' men into pigs, the magic has a low-key, almost tactile realism. Aided in no small part by Samantha Morton's chillingly intense performance as Cersei.

And when the men out with a giant cyclops in his layer,

Gone are Odysseus' show-boding speeches,

“and goes full-bore monster movie in a way he never really has before.”

Visually, Nolan is clearly pushing himself. The film was shot entirely with 70 millimeter eye-max cameras, and the images of Odysseus' ships at sea are stunningly majestic. There's a ferocious intimacy to the action scenes, some of which play out in near total darkness,

illuminated only by flickering firelight, and set to Ludwig Gorenson's pulse-pounding score. Nolan brilliantly recreates the famous Trojan horse deception, master-minded by Odysseus himself, in two gripping set pieces, culminating in the total destruction of Troy.

As he recalls the shattering events, Odysseus is flooded with regret, which Damon fully conveys in a turse, plain spoken performance, that ranks the monk his finest work. Nolan treats the sacking of Troy as an epical tragedy, comparable to the dawn of atomic warfare in Oppenheimer,

an event that forever changed how humans and nations dealt with each other. In a way, Nolan has been telling versions of Homer's epic for decades, his films are about men trying to find their way home, even when home and the world around them has become almost unrecognizable. The Odyssey is thrilling, but uneven,

though it moves pretty swiftly for being so overstuffed. There are striking performances from Lupita and Yongo, as a fiercely defiant Helen of Troy,

him as Patel, as Odysseus's second in command,

and a very moving John Leguizamo, as an epic and swine herd, who longs for Odysseus's return. Throughout the film, you can almost feel Nolan thinking his way through the material, figuring out which parts of the text to leave alone, and which parts to cut or embellish.

Some sequences, like when Odysseus tussles with the sea monsters, Silla and Corribedus, feel a little perfunctory. But then we'll get an inspired subplot featuring Elliot Page, as a Greek soldier whose grim fate weighs heavily on Odysseus's conscience,

“and you remember that Nolan, whose style has often been dismissed,”

as coldly intellectual, is one of our most emotionally driven filmmakers. There's no puzzle-like trickery to the final act of the Odyssey. It plays out with a classical simplicity and directness, and Damon, Hathaway, and Holland are entirely convincing, as a broken family being pieced together at long last.

You realize why Nolan wanted to make this film, and why it feels like a prism through which his earlier films can be more deeply understood. For him, no less than for Odysseus, the Odyssey feels like a homecoming.

Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. Harriet Clark was 11 months old when her mother was a getaway driver in the infamous 1981 robbery of a "bringstruck". The robbers were members of radical offshoots of the weather underground

and the black panthers. For the next 37 years, Harriet spent Saturdays visiting her mother in prison. Her new novel is based on that. She's on Monday's show. Hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews,

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