How the WNBA became a political prop in the culture wars

using Palantir, though not affiliated with the actual software company.

“"Think it, do me. I could lose everything, but it would all be worth it,”

at least two people here have a spark. So, no pressure." The facts, myths, and dark jokes surrounding Palantir, listen a plan of money on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air, I'm Terry Gross. In June, the WNBA announced significant expansion of the league with new teams coming to Cleveland, Detroit, and Philadelphia. It's a milestone for the sport

as women's basketball gains both fan and corporate support. At the same time, the league has been embroiled in controversy that has more to do with the culture wars than with the game. Sabrina Merchant covers the WNBA for the New York Times Sports Journalism site the Athletic. She spoke with guest interviewer Sam Fragoso, host of the interview podcast, "Talk Easy. Here's Sam." By any metric, the WNBA, the Women's National Basketball Association, is having a landmark year,

record viewership and attendance, soaring team valuations and a massive $3.1 billion media rights deal with partners like Disney, ABC, and Amazon. And that's only the business. The basketball is chock-full of talent across the league, towering talents like Asia Wilson and Grant Stewart, young dynamic rim runners like Angel Reese and Kiki Earfine, Steely Veterans, like Chelsea Gray and Kelsey Mitchell, the fan favorites, like Olivia Miles and Sophie Cunningham.

The difficult degree of shot making the acrobatics, the extended range, night to night,

the game has never flowed better or been more competitive. And yet, as WBU are a reporter,

Karri Thompson writes, "The collision of what the WNBA has always been, a lifeline to the LGBTQ+ community and what it's becoming as a result of this newfound attention, following Indiana fever star Caitlyn Clark's arrival in 2024, has turned the league into a target. According to Media Matters since June 25, Fox News has dedicated at least 206 segments to the WNBA, largely aimed at stoking cultural war tensions related to race,

transathletes, and more. My guest today is Sports Reporter Sabrina Merchant, she covers the WNBA for the athletic and have been on the beat for nearly a decade. Sabrina Merchant, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you for having me. To start, the commissioner of the WNBA, Cathy Engelbert, has announced her retirement

“come the end of this season. Why was this the time for her to step down?”

So this past offseason, the commissioner presided over her second collective bargaining agreement negotiation, landmarked deal that pushed WNBA salaries into the seven figures, introduced revenue sharing into the league, meaningfully for the very first time, and has just completely transformed

the economics of the business. And it always seemed like this would be the last CBA that Cathy Engelbert

wouldn't negotiate. It was just a matter of time of when she decided to step down whether that was closer to the signing of this one or closer to the expiration of the state, and I guess she decided that this was the right time. She has said that she only intended to be in the job for less than five years, and she is completing her eight seasons. She came in sort of made way through the first season. So she is about seven years since she took on the job. At the end of last season, Nefisa Collier,

who is a Ford for the Minnesota Lynx, arguably the best team in the league right now, said quote, "We have the best players in the world, we have the best fans in the world, but right now we have the worst leadership in the world." Are those comments reflective of a larger sentiment around the league, especially with the players? Yeah, if you really brought it with that statement, you know, she had just been injured a few days earlier in a playoff game that essentially ended the Lynx chances

of winning her first WMBA title, and I imagine the emotions were pretty high. She eventually

“had to have surgery on both ankles, you know, came into this exit interview setting on a scooter, I believe,”

like, or crutches like a combination of the two. She was, you know, not the kind of state that you want to be when you'd rather be playing in the WMBA finals. And she has since said that she was being a little dramatic with the worst leadership in the world comment. I do think she intended to get across the fact that the WMBA officiating needs to improve more than anything and that there has to be a greater partnership between the league and its players stakeholders. But I don't think

it is out of ordinary among the players to be critical of Kathy Angleworth's leadership and her

ability to communicate and maintain relationships with the players. That was at the heart of the negotiations and a lot of the distrust during the collective bargaining agreement process, you know, from about January to March of this year. And it is a sentiment that, like, I'm not just a piece of callers expressed, but other players around the league. I think the successful ratification

have popped up over the course of the season with regards to the culture wars and officiating

and online hate and vitriol that the players are experiencing. You know, players weren't necessarily satisfied with the way that the commissioner had responded to all of those things in her ability to protect the players in those situations. And what way were they not satisfied with her protection or lack thereof? There has been a sense that the league is more reactive than proactive and doesn't make efforts to, you know, provide online safety platforms or reach out to players until

they have been the victims of doxing or death threats or, you know, really terrible behavior online, you know, too such players do want to bond our enlistitomists who received just an enormous amount

of online hate after a listitomists committed a flagrant foul on Caitlin Clark earlier in the season,

said that they hadn't heard from the commissioner and that, you know, that the only safety and

“security protection they were receiving was from their own team, the Phoenix Mercury. So I think that”

common thought that they don't reach out after something so severe. Well, you would imagine that if Caitlin Clark was receiving death threats, that the response might be a little timelier, but I think there is a sentiment that, well, why would want to imagine that? Because she is the most popular player in the league and has received the attention of the NBA commissioner when this, you know, whole flagrant foul incident happened. A flagrant foul wasn't actually adjudicated in

real time during the game. It was assessed later and it was reported that Adam Silver was actually making the call to assess that flagrant foul even though this is technically not his league. This is the WNBA not the NBA. So there is a sentiment that there is a certain level of protection provided to some players and not others. Is the protection based on race or talent?

“I think popularity has something to do with it. You know, Caitlin is sort of the golden goose that”

came in in 2024 and created this rocket ship of popularity that the league's experience ever since. When we talk about viewership records, those tend to involve games that include the Indiana fever. Her WNBA draft was the most viewed, you know, when she participated in the all-star game, that was the one that caused, you know, record attendance. So sort of an understanding that like this is where our bread is buttered. Let's make sure to take care of this and that's something that

Adam Silver has, at least publicly made clear that he is worried about the treatment that Caitlin Clark gets. That's not a sentiment that Kathy Engelberg has publicly expressed, but based on the the way players relationships are with the commissioner. There seems to be a sentiment that like certain players have better access to things than others. I noticed online that I did not see a ton of players both current and former lamenting her retirement. How would you describe the general

feeling now? Having, you know, this record season in the WNBA, like I said, viewership, valuations, all-time high, attendance, all-time high is the league broadly excited for the commissioner to have step down and for her to find a replacement. I think part of the lack of reaction to the commissioner retiring from that player pool is that 50 current WNBA players are participating in the People World Cup across the world in Berlin and this might not be at the top of their lists or things

to be focusing on when they're playing games at the beginning of a very important international competition.

“But I think it's important to realize that the job Kathy Engelberg was hired for in 2019”

as the commissioner of the WNBA is dramatically different from the job she currently presides over. The league was in a completely different place in 2019. It didn't have any sort of resonance in the national consciousness compared to what it does now. WNBA finals games weren't

hitting a million viewers. Now you regularly get that for regular season games. Attendance was at

different levels. The way people talked about the league it wasn't breaking through on social media or like internet platforms the way that it does now. She was basically brought in to improve the business of the league, which makes sense because she was the CEO of Deloitte when she was hired for the role and she enters in this really strange situation where less than a year after she gets hired, COVID pandemic hits and she's now trying to construct a season in a bubble and Florida

and they can't really bring in revenue as much because there's no fans and the entire economics of the league have shifted and so she I think pretty successfully navigated the league through that pandemic to got them out of it and had the league positioned where it was ready to ride this rocket ship once Caitlin Clark and Angel Racer arrived. But once the two of them

the commissioner was prepared to address. So while her business acumen has helped the league

come to these heights and you mentioned all of the economic milestones that they pay there is just a lack of control of the narrative of the WNBA and I don't think the commissioner is entirely to blame there but because of the experiences of the players and their daily lives and

“online how they are affected by this new cultural cache that WNBA has I think they want a commissioner”

who is better able to again control the story around the WNBA and prevent it from being a political prop and all of these cultural works. And do you suspect the next commissioner will be a former WNBA player? So that's tricky because one of the names that I've heard potentially in the running for the next WNBA commissioner is the current president of basketball operations, her name is Bethany Donovan

and she was a player for one year but I wouldn't say that her major claim to fame is because she

was a player in the WNBA. I generally think it would be hard for a person who was recently a former player to be able to respond to the interests of the owners in the way that a commissioner has to rather than you know keeping her player hat on. So what do you mean? Well the job of the commissioner is they serve the owners right like they respond to the 15 currently owners in the WNBA and

“the board of governors and so they have to protect their interests and if it's a player I think it's”

hard to separate that from the interests of the players especially when the players are already represented by the head of their union, the president of the WNBA. So it almost feels like duplicated interests when I think there has to be a healthy given take between the commissioner who is sitting at one side of the table and the player's representative who is sitting at the other side of the table. Before we discuss the cultural words that you referenced, big picture since the WNBA is off and many

of its players are participating in the feeble world cup. Can you give us an overview of kind of the state of the league as it stands right now? Like the 30,000 foot view both on the court and off. On the court I think the league is in a better place than it ever has been. The number of young stars who have come into the league of late, including, you know, you previously mentioned the Olivia Miles. We've got Caitlyn Clark, Paige Becker, Angel Reese, Alia Bost and all of these

players who actually are currently representing Team USA at the feeble world cup. They are

“more popular and more marketable than previous generations of stars have been. I think a lot of”

that has to do with the fact that they came of age during the NIL era in college and they were much bigger names when they got to the WNBA than their predecessors had been. For those who may not be familiar with the NIL era and college, can you give just a basic summary of it? Right. So in 2021, the courts ruled that college athletes could profit off of their individual name image and likeness so they could make money independently of, you know, playing in college sports. Previously,

the status of amateurism meant that college players couldn't accept money for anything they did. While they were in college and so by, you know, capitalizing on their NIL, they're able to do endorsements and marketing deals and appear in commercials and it just significantly increased their fan bases and made them individual brands almost by the time they got to the pros. So there's a huge fan following. There's so much talent. The quality of play and the league is better than

it ever has been. The playoff field is really exciting and it's kind of open so no one really knows who's going to win the title in 2026. I think there's a lot of drama and potential storylines that could take place through these last four games of the regular season and into the postseason and a lot of players who could assert themselves to new heights because, you know, we could easily get a new champion in somebody else, you know, adding to their resume in a new and

exciting way. But then there's also all of these things happening off the court that continue to permeate the discourse on September 3rd. Former NBA player and his cancer freedom said that he was suing the Chicago sky for violating his first amendment rights by ejecting him from a game at Winchester Arena and then subsequently banning him from that arena because he stepped on to the court and so things like this that just continue to make their way into the WMBA and

detract from all of the basketball that is being played is just this constant push and pull that the WMBA hasn't quite figured out how to navigate and I'm not sure that's entirely on the commissioner but it is preventing the league from enjoying all of the fruits of its labor at a time when it really deserves to. I would say this season has had a few different flashpoints. One of them is this game between the Indiana fever and the Chicago sky in August. You referenced

and as Canter Freedom he is a former NBA player who made upwards of a hundred million dollars

rebounds. Now he came to the game with a shirt that said woman parentheses now an adult human

female and toward the end of the third quarter during a timeout Natasha Cloud play on the sky

goes to confront Canter who's been sitting courtside all game and subsequently Canter extends his arm takes a step on the court which you cannot do and is promptly ejected since then he's been banned

“from the Chicago sky home games. Can you unpack beyond the description I just gave? What happened here?”

In July of this year ESPN released a profile of Sophie County Hammond athlete on the Indiana fever who has monetized being Caitlyn Clark's teammate better than anybody else in the history of mankind. She has taken advantage of every opportunity to increase her popularity by being on the Indiana fever. She has sort of fashioned herself as Caitlyn Clark's protector on the court. There is a segment of the fan base that came in with Caitlyn Clark who believes that she is

the victim of more heart fouls and isn't protected by WMBA officials and in one game in 2025 after Caitlyn Clark was the victim of a flagrant foul. Sophie County Hammond proceeded to take out the player who fouled her on a fast break and ever since then has become a cult hero. So since then her Q rating is off the charts relative to the first six seasons of her career when she played Phoenix and was just this anonymous role player on a decent team in the WMBA and in this profile

that was written about her she has a line in the middle of it where she says that she doesn't believe that trans women belong in girl sports and she was asked about that after the profile came out and doubled down on her statement saying that she wants to protect young girls and sports. In doing so Sophie became the first active professional women's athlete to express the sentiments about restricting transgender women from women's sports and a lot of people

latched on to her as this avatar of this particular viewpoint of keeping women sports exclusively for cisgender women and a couple of people who latched on to Sophie's position are an escanter freedom and another former NBA player. As of now the WMBA doesn't have an expressed policy about

“transgender athletes in their league in the CBA it says that you have to be a woman to play in the”

WMBA but it doesn't go on to define what a woman it's and why is that? Well the WMBA has never had

a transgender player in its history they've had a couple of non binary players both of whom were a sign of female at birth there have never been any eligibility concerns about transgender women wanting to enter the league the instability doesn't even currently allow transgender athletes to play so it's hard to see where the pipeline would come from. So it's a theoretical issue at this point one that the WMBA is not currently presented with and as canter freedom is one of the

people who believes that the WMBA needs to clarify its policy to restrict transgender women from the league and came to the Chicago sky game in the attempts of making such a statement with that shirt. He proceeds to get into an altercation with Natasha Cloud who they have previously had Twitter beef

“and is ejected from the game as you mentioned because he stepped onto the court every security”

apparatus at the game whether that's WMBA security is Chicago sky security like a rena security all agreed that he deserved to be ejected and has since taken that as a violation of his first minute rights because he says that he was ejected for wanting to protect women beyond the lawsuit that he has recently filed it's also resulted in a petition for the WMBA to enact quote female only eligibility criteria in the petition features 18,000 signatures in counting

including NBA Hall of Famer Charles Barkley. So it sounds to me that within the league and again the CBA is you described it the issue of a trans athlete is not an issue in large part because

the league has never had one and yet what you describe as a theoretical problem has had as I

understand it real world consequences on the entire league and fans within the LGBTQ+ community who feel obviously threatened by canter and the players themselves who now find themselves defending and backpedaling and talking about an issue I don't think they were prepared to talk about. Yeah canter is not the only person to come to a game because he was trying to you know a spouse support for this exclusion of transgender athletes there have been many protests and

like small rallies at a number of Indiana fever games during the second half of the season with evil and supportive Sophie Cunningham staging outside of the games beforehand coming into the games,

regarding an issue that has not actually made its way into the eligibility of the WMBA and no other

“players in the league have said that they believe transgender and women should be excluded and so”

we're seeing transgender women outside of the league who are fans of the league we are seeing members of the LGBTQ community within the league who are being accessible police because could they be trans and again I just all surfacing from something that does not actually present an issue to the league as is. We're listening to the conversation our guest interviewer Sam Fragoso recorded with Sabrina Merchant, a staff writer for the New York Times Sports Journalism site

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interviewer Sam Fragosa recorded with Sabrina Merchant. She covers the WNBA for the New York Times

sports journalism site the athletic. The other story I want to discuss and you've alluded to it is the game between the Indiana fever and the Phoenix Mercury that took place on June 24th. Can you explain what happened on this play between Caitlyn Clark and Alyssa Thomas and what happened in its aftermath? In doing so I feel like we should back up a couple days to the previous game between the Indiana fever and the Phoenix Mercury when a few of the players got into a little bit of

a tussle and had to be separated by the officials and as part of that tussle Sophie counting him became infamous for this point that she was directing at one of the members of the Phoenix Mercury to want to bother who used to play on the Indian fever last season before a less than amicable split. So two days later the teams play again there are heightened tensions because of

“what had just happened and I think it's safe to say that the officials did not do a good job of”

controlling the game from the start. How do you mean? They let a lot of contact go that probably should have been officiated more tightly and whistle as foul as to not let the game get out of hand. But this is something that the WMBA had recognized as a problem and created an officiating task force in 2026 to tighten up the game and allow for more freedom of movement and to prevent things from getting out of hand. So this game between the Indian fever and the Phoenix Mercury seemed like a

perfect opportunity to keep things tight from the start. They did not do so. Things get a little bit physical in one possession, you know, Caitlyn Clark goes down on the ground. The list Thomas is trying to get ball from her ends up pushing her fist into Caitlyn Clark's throat. The Indian fever coaching staff is obviously I rate. No foul is whistled in the moment. But afterwards, the list Thomas has given a flagrant to foul and suspended for one game. Do you think the foul

itself was a basketball play? I do not think it was a basketball play. Things like that unfortunately happened during the course of the game inadvertently when bodies are flying around. I don't think the list Thomas intentionally meant to put her fist into Caitlyn Clark's throat, but it did happen and it necessitated a flagrant to foul and the subsequent suspension. In your reporting, have you found that Clark's opponents are disproportionately targeting her

because of her race? The data does not suggest that at all. Caitlyn Clark draws more fouls than any other guard in the league. And yes, she has more usage. She has the ball in her hands more often, but she's still getting to the line and drawing fouls at a higher rate than other players at her position. So to suggest that she is getting played more physically, maybe that's the

Do you think her opponents are tougher on her or target her because she's from Des Moines,

“Iowa? Is it because she has a $28 million shoe deal? I mean, does any of those claims”

bear any truth or in reality or in your reporting? What I will acknowledge is that the way to successfully defend Caitlyn Clark is to pressure her for 94 feet. Her handle can get a little loose. She doesn't respond as well. The people entirely up in her airspace. She tends to use her off-arm to clear them out. And that is the most successful way for disrupting her often supportments and as a result disrupting the Indiana fever as a whole who have currently

the best offense in WMBA league history. So the act of being physical is more just a tactic that has to be applied because of the way her game works. The WMBA has historically been built on the back

of Black women. Most of the great players in the league have been Black women and the fandom has been a

safe space for marginalized communities like Black women like LGBTQ women. And things started to change when Caitlyn Clark came into the league and brought in a new fandom that, you know, didn't have

“those identities. Like she is a straight white woman from middle America. And it's not as if the”

WMBA hasn't had white superstars before. You know, Diana Tarazi, Superd, Rebecca Lobo. But Caitlyn still is kind of unique in the grand scheme of the WMBA because she has a fandom that didn't associate any of these identities. Like didn't relate with her because of those marginalized identities. And it's just a different group that isn't used to what the WMBA has been. I still don't think that there's any reason to doubt the way defense is cover Caitlyn Clark. It just makes sense

from a basketball scouting and strategy perspective. But there are so many people who came in

watching Caitlyn Clark really have free run at Iowa to do whatever she wanted on the offensive end. Because college players are not good enough to defend Caitlyn Clark. I'm going to do any of those things against her. So to see her go from all of that open space at Iowa to a WMBA scouting report or like coaches opposing players understand how to stop her was just a bit of a disconnect. And people unfortunately want to read a lot into that because she is playing against a lot of black

players. The majority of players in the WMBA are black. So she is going to be defended by a lot of black players. And you just don't see the same level of animosity when she's defended by, you know, a white player like J.C. Sheldon who gets in her grill and you know, played at Iowa State in his very familiar with Caitlyn's game from the Big Ten when they played against each other in college, as you do when somebody like Dejanay Carrington, defense or or lessen on this.

And yet Clark herself on the post-move podcast co-hosted by WMBA legend Candice Parker spoke on the physicality of the game saying that the game played did begin to start to cross certain line. And that she's quote excited about the fourth coming rule changes. It's going to make the product of the game a lot better, too, and quote, "What do you make of that?" So we'd reference previously in a piece of collier talking about the WMBA having the

“worst leadership in the world and needing to improve its officiating processes. I think Caitlyn Clark”

was speaking to those same sentiments. It is universally acknowledged by what players Black players, straight players, gay players alike. The WMBA officiating is not as good as the quality of play in the league. They don't have full-time officials. The training process is such that the good ones from the glee end up going to the NBA and the less good ones end up going to the WMBA for a long time. It was even written that when officials went from the WMBA to the NBA. They were being

promoted. So they are not even getting the best quality officials in this league. A lot of them have to referee college basketball as well during their off season. So they're sort of picking up two different sports at the same time because college rules are a little bit different the WMBA rules. So yes, the game was trending towards excessive unnecessary degrees of physicality, particularly in the 2020-25 season. A season that Caitlyn missed a lot of because she was hurt.

And her coach Stephanie White didn't go so far as to say that the officiating was to blame for it, but she didn't exactly deny that correlation. During the 2020-26 off season, the WMBA worked really hard to create this officiating task force to improve the consistency of its officiating to decrease the amount of contact that is allowed in a game. At the start of the season, we were seeing record numbers of free throws, fouls, games were taking a little bit longer, obviously,

because of all of these stoppages, but there was a lot more movement allowed by often suppliers, which would happen to benefit somebody like Caitlyn Clark, who is a magnificent offensive player. If you're just joining us, my guest today is Sabrina Merchant. She's a women's basketball staff writer for The Athletic. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Santa for go, so this is for a share. How do products end up on big box shelves? Well, we have planet

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This is fresh air. I'm Santa for go, so today I'm talking with Sabrina Merchant of The Athletic, which it covers the inner workings of the WNBA. According to media matters, since June 25th,

Fox News is dedicated at least 206 segments to the WNBA. Largely aimed at stoking cultural

war tensions related to race, translates and more. The play between the list of Thomas and Caitlyn Clark, that in many ways seemed to be a flashpoint in this season and jumpstarted all kinds of conversations.

“And I think to draw a comparison to the past and to, you know, the other league, the NBA,”

you know, the infamous Chicago Bulls player Dennis Rodman. He was suspended on six different occasions for his physicality, and I just want to list some of them for you. In 1994, he had butter John Stockton. In 1996, he had buttered a white referee, and in 1977, he hit Joel Wolf in the groin. And in the coverage of those altercations, I could find no insinuation that his on-court aggression was racially motivated. So again, to bring us back to this moment and this kind of larger

conversation with the league. So why is Thomas's play along with other black players in the W? Why is that being described as racially motivated? What is different about it? I feel like if there were an answer to that question, then we could solve why all of these conversations keep happening. It doesn't really make sense to me why we have to describe everything in the WMBA in terms of race when that doesn't happen at the NBA or in the NFL or

other professional sports. Everything in the WMBA seems to take on a political lens far beyond

“what is actually happening on the court. And I think it's because people see an opportunity to”

use the league as a political prop and, you know, they've done so with these culture wars, with the racial sensitivity, with, you know, we spoke earlier about the transgender women at playing sports issue. None of these things are really issues to the players in the WMBA, but because it is popular, because it is on social media, people are able to use it as an avatar for whatever statement they want to make. With this commissioner who has been with the league

for quite a while now, Kathy Engelberg, with her stepping down, the next commissioner that is ushered in to the league, where do you think they'll be trying to take the league moving forward? Especially as we think about, you know, what should be a very exciting playoffs come the end of September.

“I think part of the role of the new commissioner is going to be to maintain”

solid relationships with the players, understandably like every commissioner is hated from the outside. That's just something that you understand when you step into the role. But I don't think it's a good luck when players are consistently badmathened you in public. So maintaining it because this line of communication with the players, building that relationship, that rapport, I think is a big part of what WMBA is hoping for because so many of the victories that it should

be able to celebrate have been clouded by a lack of proper framing or just an inability to celebrate things because, you know, the players and Kathy seemingly don't want to be in the same room with one another. Well, exactly. One such example is the 30th anniversary poster that the WMBA tweeted out encouraging fans to quote, "bring a piece of W history home." And this poster notably left out Caitlin Clark, Candice Parker, Maya Moore, and three-time champ, 10-time WMBA

first-team player Diana Terasi. Now, Clark's omission made waves, I think, understandably,

but it sounds as if Caitlin Clark was actually responsible for her own omission on the 30th anniversary poster. Same goes for Candice Parker, Maya Moore, and like I said, Diana Terasi. The gulf there is pretty damning. Yeah, I don't think we can do anything about the framing of it on Fox News, but I do think it is concerning for the league that they couldn't get

to me speaks to the gulf in the relationship between the league and its stakeholders. And, you know, it's not last on me that at the 30th anniversary celebration in Los Angeles when the sparks

played the New York Liberty in an anniversary of the very first game in 1997, Kathy Englbert

wasn't present at that game. Where was she? Like the kind of event that you would want to commissioner to be at? I've tried to find out where she was. I have not been able to, but she was not at the game. They seem like wazy missteps for a leader of a league. Yes, but why continuously

“misstep? I think that's probably a good sign for when it's time to go. You know, if these are the”

things that are not priorities to you anymore, even though it is your role to be commissioner of this league, then it seems like the right time to step down. For those who recently found WMBA and, you know, have complicated feelings about professional athletes complaining about

playing a game for a living. Can you talk about the salaries that these players

command within the league and what they do to supplement said salary? So, prior to the collective bargaining agreement that was instituted during the 2026 offices and the average salary for a WMBA player was a little over $100,000. Somewhere between, if you're going mean versus median between $100 and $120,000, and that necessitated a lot of players to play overseas during their WMBA offices or in recent years, these domestic leads have popped up to supplant their incomes,

“whether that be unrivaled, which is a three-on-three league that plays in Miami or athletes unlimited,”

and that means that players are competing year-round, not giving them a lot of time to rest, you know, recover their bodies, work on their games, even, or spend time with their families and loved ones during their break from their WMBA season. For the majority of the WMBA's history, the players made more money on their overseas contracts, whether that was like playing in Russia, Turkey, or France, or Italy, or Australia, compared to their WMBA contracts, I mean,

it gone. So, ridiculous at points that player like Diana Tarazi, after winning a WMBA title in 2014, goes to play in Russia during that offseason, and then her team says, "We're going to pay you a

million dollars not to play in the WMBA this year, just so you can rest and be ready for our next season."

And so she sits out instead of defending her title and makes 10 times as much money as she would for not playing as she would by playing. And with this increase in popularity, viewers should numbers up, take a sales higher, are the salaries changing? Yeah, the new collective bargaining agreement has created an average salary for about $600,000 now for WMBA players. And there is a revenue sharing component in the CBA such that as the WMBA's revenue rises, whether that's more

media money or ticket money, any sort of revenue that the league brings in, that would create a corresponding change in the WMBA's salaries. Previously, the salaries were fixed in the collective bargaining agreement, so it didn't matter that the WMBA experiences rocket ship wave of growth in 2025, their salaries were still governed by the number that was set back in 2020. So now they have even more money as they're base and the potential for the cap to go up by as much as 13%.

This year to increase that salary even more over the life of this CBA. So when it comes to the players, I'm thinking about how the league is continuing to grow and change, especially

“with the 30th anniversary, but also heading into what I think many people are feeling is going to”

be a very exciting play-offs. And the larger big picture question that I have is something that sports commentator Bill Simmons has suggested that some players in the league need to quote "develop a thicker skin" now that more attention is being paid to them. And so as we leave, do you think the players are prepared to shoulder this level of criticism and scrutiny? And most importantly, success. I think women, as a whole, are absolutely prepared to shoulder layers of criticism and

scrutiny, and it is a rich comment from Bill Simmons to talk about thick skin. But this new level of success, I think, is different. Also, it's so funny you think about these studies about how men apply for jobs where they have certain percentage of qualifications and women apply for jobs if they have like 110% of the qualifications. And there is an element of like the WWE player's feeling the need to prove that we got all this money we need to show that we are capable of producing

at this level. And they're still making like really small percentages of what NBA players are, even though the delta between people that watch WNBA games and NBA games is smaller than ever,

And the product is awesome and it is so much fun to watch WNBA game whether that's on TV,

whether that's in person. And I think they should celebrate the fact that they've gotten to this point and not worry about proving that they belong here anymore because I think it is all deserved, frankly, more has deserved of WNBA players and the fact that they have to go through this hell of all the political nonsense as part of it. It's just more proof-positive that like people are uncomfortable with seeing women having success, especially on this public of a platform. And there

were constantly people trying to bring them down and unfortunately like we can't stop that,

“but at the very least, you should enjoy the moment that you have in the sun where the WWE”

is making money, giving you an opportunity to play the game you love. And you know, just tap on

with it. Sabrina Birchand, thank you for the time. Thank you for having me. Sabrina Birchand covers the WNBA for the New York Times Sports Journalism Site the Athletic. She spoke with guest interviewer Sam Fragoso, Sam hosts the interview podcast, "Talk Easy." Coming up our film critic Justin Chang reviews Practical Magic 2. This is Fresh Air. History is intriguing, but unlike the present, it can feel far off. On NPR's throughline, we bring it back to life

and put you in the middle of it. Go inside the stories from then that shape the world we live in now, find NPR's throughline wherever you get your podcasts.

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all in about 20 minutes every afternoon. Get smarter and expand your world fast. Listen to here and now any time on the NPR app or wherever you listen to podcasts. This is Fresh Air. The supernatural romantic drama "Practical Magic" starring Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman opened in 1998 to mixed reviews and did poorly at the box office, but it eventually developed a cold following.

And now, 28 years later, Bullock and Kidman have reunited for a sequel, "Practical Magic 2." It opens in theaters tomorrow, and our film critic Justin Chang has this review. I didn't see Practical Magic when it opened in theaters back in 1998. In truth, not many people did go to see this adaptation of Alice Hoffman's best-selling novel,

“about two New England sisters, who supernatural powers wreak havoc on their love lives.”

But over the nearly three decades since, the film, directed by Griffin Dunn, this found an intensely loyal audience via cable and streaming. And on airplanes to judge by the number of times I've seen it pop up on in-flight video screens. Catching up with Practical Magic myself a couple of years ago, I was charmed by Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman's winsome chemistry and by the

films arresting Stu of genres, from romantic comedy to domestic abuse melodrama to undead horror. Back in 1998, a lot of critics dismissed the movie as tonally incoherent. Decades later, it feels pretty daring in its embrace of both darkness and light, and precious in its vision of women coming together, whether to overthrow the forces of evil, or to kick back with some midnight margaritas, or both.

Like the 1993 movie, Hocus Pocus, a very different tale of witchy sisters that became an unlikely occult classic. Practical Magic has a crewed enough goodwill to spawn a mildly enjoyable sequel. That's bigger on fan service than freshness. In Practical Magic 2, which is based on Hoffman's 2021 novel The Book of Magic, Boock and Kidman return as sisters Sally and Jillian Owens. They're still living with a centuries-old family curse that has an inconvenient habit of striking

down any man they fall in love with. Sally, who's already lost two husbands to the curse, has given up magic all together, hoping to keep future tragedies at bay. She hasn't even told her now-grown daughters, Kylie and Antonia, that their witches, to the shagrin of the freer-spirited Jillian. The truth comes out soon after Kylie, played by Joey King,

professes her love for her adorable boyfriend, Gideon. He's promptly hit by a car and slips into a coma. Kylie is furious at Sally for her deception, and hell bent on breaking the curse and saving Gideon's life. Through a complicated series of events involving a mysterious spellbook that's tied to the Owens' family's magical legacy, Kylie impulsively jets off to England

the sisters meet a local authority on witchcraft named Ian, played by a dashing Lee pace,

“who tries to get Sally to reclaim the powers that she long ago renounced.”

"You're scared." "You're afraid of your power." "Well, I've seen what my power can do." "You ignore your heritage at your peril." "Yeah my god, can we please not do the peril speech?" "It's just a blocked." "Yeah, she's very blocked. You know what? I'm not a drain. I'm a human being, highly repressed human being." Practical magic, too, was directed by the Danish filmmaker Susanne Beer, who previously worked with Bullock on the Netflix thriller Bird Box.

Beer's assignment here is pretty straightforward. Mostly she stays out of the way so that two of America's most beloved actresses can slip back into their characters familiar, lovingly bigger some dynamic. There is fun to watch as ever. Kidman's caution to the wind energy still bounces nicely off Sally's tightly wound exasperation. It's also a pleasure to see Diane Weast and

“Stockard Channing repriezed their roles as Sally and Jillian's wise old ants. Even in their twilight”

years, they have a lot of rye wisdom and even a few intriguing surprises to impart to their nieces. And of course, their grand nieces, who is characters are more of a mixed bag. I must confess a certain exasperation of my own when it comes to stories about impetuous youth. And I lost my patience pretty early on with Kylie as she foolishly hurls herself into a world of supernatural terrors that she has no idea how to navigate. I'd like to have seen more of her younger

sister Antonia, a diligent doctor who spends most of the movie in a hospital room looking after the unconscious Gidian. Given that Antonia is played by Maisie Williams, who is the formidable Arya Stark in game of thrones. It's startling that she isn't given more to do. Especially in a movie that at 130 minutes runs far longer than its predecessor. Too much of practical magic, too, is given over to a grindingly mechanical mystery plot that takes

forever to unravel, though the climax is never endowed. In order to prevail, Sally, Jillian and

Kylie will have to put their differences aside, interact with some flashy visual effects, and reassert the family bonds that unite them. Unsurprisingly, Sally will also have to open herself up to the possibility of love again, given the sparks that fly between her and Ian. For their sake, you can't help but root for the Owens women to break the spell that's haunted them for decades. Even if the curse of the Hollywood sequel, in this instance, proves a lot harder to shake off.

Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker. He reviewed practical magic, too, starring Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you missed, like our conversation with Casey Gerald author of The Great Refusal, a new vision of resistance, and Richard Beck about how life in America has changed since 9/11. Check out our podcast, you'll find lots of fresh air interviews. You can also watch some of our interviews on our

YouTube page, which is called This is Fresh Air. And find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations for what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whuy.org/freshair. Fresh air is executive producer, Sam Brigger, our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanishewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Roberta Schorock,

Ann Reable, Donato, Lauren Crenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Ecundee, Ann Abalman, and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. They are a challenger directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. Hey, what's your problem?

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