Lena Waithe

>> Hello, everyone.

“Welcome to another episode of Good Hanging.”

We are very excited about our guest today.

It is Lena Waste, writer, producer, actor. Lena does so many things so well, and she's the coolest. And we're going to get into how cool she is today. We're going to get into the way she likes to work. We're going to talk about our love of Chicago.

We're going to talk about Blockbuster, a place where you had to go and rent videos in person. We're going to talk about the fact that she is the first block woman to ever win a prime time Emmy in comedy writing. We're going to talk about a couple of therapy.

We're going to get into it.

But before we do that, we always have the section of the show where we speak

to somebody who knows our guest who wants to speak well behind their back and give me some questions to ask. And joining me are the two directors, Tony Award Winning Directors, of Kat's Jellicle Ball, the show that is out on Broadway, as we speak. And that Lena is a producer on.

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Hi, Bill, hi, Jalen, nice to meet you. By the way, congratulations, Tony winners. Before we talk about our guest, just talk me through the evening of the Tony's, which is my absolute favorite award show. Yeah, it was very surreal.

I was there with my mother and my partner. And I mean, Bill sat by each other, and we had to keep playing musical chairs, because we Bill had family. I had family. We wanted to share the time that we sat by them during the award show.

And I'm going to wait hold on, let's, I'm going to pause right there. You guys were making sure that you gave everyone in your family enough time. Yeah, we need to talk. This is why you can't bring family to award shows. Well, for those people that haven't had the pleasure of coming a Broadway and seeing

jellicle ball, can you just explain what it is? It is Andrew Lloyd Weber's musical cats set in the ballroom scene, the grew out of Harlem. And so our cats are not cats, they're human beings competing in a competitive ball.

And I have never been part of a project in my whole life that more people love, like whatever

your age, whatever your relationship to ballroom, whatever your relationship to, Andrew Lloyd Weber's musical, people who love it, people who think they hate it. Everybody has just an overwhelmingly positive experience at the jellicle ball.

“And Jayling, can you explain, when you say ballroom what that means?”

Yeah, so ballroom is an underground queer culture that really started in New York around 1970, 1971, '72. And really the main architect at the very beginning was a powerful, beautiful woman named Crystal Abesia who was a trans woman of color who had felt rejected by the queer pageant scene. And left that scene to start what we know to be ballroom.

And when I say ballroom is a culture, much like hip-hop, it has multiple elements. So ballroom is both an artistic way of expressing oneself. It is competition, it is bog, it is all of those kind of aesthetic things that we understand about the craft, but it's also a chosen family structure that's been organized since 1972 and the structure is centered around the house and the house and mother and the house

And really springs out of a need for young queer kids who needed family at a very specific point, and they are coming to themselves to catch them when maybe their biological families were not able to do so.

“It's such a great transition into Lena Wath, because her work in her life is kind of a living”

example of sharing herself with the world, trying to figure out how to mentor other people, trying to make people feel seen and feel included. And you know, as a black queer woman, she is like breaking barriers everywhere.

She goes, she's the first tier, she's the first there.

She's like supporting and giving her voice to all different kinds of projects. And she is a producer on your show. That's right. How did that come to be? She saw it when we did it downtown.

She saw the off-roadway product and she flipped over it and she brought Cynthia a river to see it and she just let us know if this thing can happen on Broadway. I want to be part of it. I want to be part of making it happen. And she was present from one of our first rehearsals in the rehearsal room, right on through

previews, right on through the run. She's been an actively engaged producer in a beautiful way. What does a producer on Broadway need to do? Well, they need to find her some money. I think that's a big part of the art of the commerce.

But apart from that, also Lena is, you know, a public figure with a platform and is able to to shepherd eyes to issues that she really cares about.

“And I know one of the things that Lena really cares about in the season in her life is”

like how to get people off their phones and into a room together. And so I'm glad that Kat says a show that she fills is within that mission. I know she's starting to do a lot of theater work herself. But yeah, letting people know that this kind of getting up out of your couch leaving your house and being in a room with strangers as weird as that canke is might be the only

way for us to make it through the next few years. I feel like New York is is often like leading by example, how it feels to be among a lot

of people, right, New York is always bustling.

And even just the recent next win is a great example of watching people, you know, literally rub shoulders and enjoy something together. You can get the high from the next win and every day, a cast is illegible. That is that exciting, that feeling, it builds community when that direct away. Not on shirt.

And what does she, what's Lena like as a person? Because I, I like to speak well behind people's back and I have found Lena to be really, really like charming, curious, kind, what's it been like to get to know her? What kind of person is she? She's so dope.

She's so cool. And this is the thing I'm a little worried about. She's so cool. Yeah, she is, but that's fair. Like I already put on my outfit today and I look, I just before I came in, I looked in

mirror and I went, oh, fuck, she's just crazy. Like, she's, you cannot beat, you can't beat, she's just so cool. I don't know, but you're cool too. Oh my god, I'm not fishing, but thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. Also, she's so at ease with herself, that it, that it puts you on your knees. So it's, yeah, it's so fun to hang out with her. So we have a thing here where we, we ask to get a question for our guest. And you guys have been working with Lena.

You know her professionally, we're going to get into a bunch of different things that she does. The thing that you think I should ask her, big, small, silly, important that you'd want to hear her talk about.

“When did you first know in your soul that you weren't artists?”

Great. It's such a theater question. Yeah. That is such a theater question. I love it.

Well, it's all getting a circle. Let's ask each other this. Great. I contact. Why would you have each other back then?

You're a circle. Yeah, love it. One is like, I've also seen Lena a lot on the dance floor. And you know, however cool she is in life, she is 100 times cooler on the dance floor.

And I'm always like trying to think about how to maintain coolness on the dance floor.

And I would ask her who does she like to see on the dance floor? Like when she goes out, she's like, oh, that person's here. I know the party, the dancing is going to be on 10. So I'll be curious to know what that list is for her. Oh, these are incredible questions.

Yeah.

Well, thank you guys so much for this time.

I know Lena will be thrilled that we talked. And it means a lot of congratulations again on your success and on your artistry and the great work that you do in the way that you're putting, like you said, so much joy into the world. Robert Blueback to you.

I mean, you're doing really joyful work. And we need this podcast in this platform in the world right now. Absolutely. Thanks. Let's keep trying to do it against the rising tide of nonsense.

Thank you both. Pleasure to meet you both. Thank you, man. You're lovely. Lena.

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The Subaru Forest for hybrid and Cross Trek hybrid, love goes the extra mile. I was really, really looking forward to it, just because we get to hang out. I mean, come on. I know. We'd like to do this one.

We're not on camera. I know. It's been. Lena wait this year, everybody. Hi.

Very exciting. How's your mic? Good. Good. I'm just like placing it.

I don't have a handle so much. I was like the baiting. Like where I had. I'm feeling good about the no hat. Yeah.

I mean, Lena, everything you wear is cool. What are you doing? Don't start working hard. You take it off. I'm like everything you wear, how do you take it off?

I'm just going to put it on. Cool. It's not ever. It's a normal moment, it's shit right here. I mean, it's like, I want to get into that, actually, because it's kind of, I want to

talk to you about your, your look, your style, and also just the fact that like, you're like the, my coolest friend, we'll get there. Okay. Get the best. So I heard you say something at another podcast that I love.

I've been thinking about it a lot. Jesus. Who knows? I think it was another podcast or, or TikTok probably, but not on there. No, but those are that's where I get all my information, but you and everybody else.

Yeah, I know. But you said like, if you're, you said something that I love, which is if you're

“afraid that people are going to steal your ideas, you should have more ideas.”

That is true. I did say that. Probably a podcast. And it's such a great, it's, it's, I, I totally agree. Can you tell me what you mean by that?

Okay. This is a really good way to kick off such a great question because you have a peabody. Um, here's the deal. This is interesting debate that happens where a lot of, up-and-coming writers, if you

will, talk about how do I protect my ideas? Should I get them copyright and should I, like register them with the WGA?

And I always have a very, I guess it's a hot take response, which is I don't believe someone

can steal your idea. Same on, I love it. I just feel like if I tried to write my version of Parks and Rect, it wouldn't be Parks and Rect. It would be something else.

And if we all have the same like idea, it's, it's going to be different because it's kind of from two completely different writers. There's no way to copy and paste an idea. And also artists, I believe, are often times in the same way. There's a reason why sometimes you see, there's a lot of vampire stuff happening right

now. We're going on over here. And it's just because artists are sort of in their, their silo, they're doing their thing, and then they kind of decide, oh, I'm going to write this, or this is very similar to this thing.

I just don't buy it.

“Well, when I love about it, is it's like the opposite of grasping energy, right?”

Which is like, I have this idea, the idea is so important, it's my one idea. And also, as I've gotten older, I feel like the idea is part of it, but so much of it is people in process, too, like, an idea can only go so far. Right. And it's just, in thinking about the theme for this pod today, I was thinking about

just that because I feel like that statement kind of defines your career. Like you, you do so many different things. You produce, you write, you act, you know, you do podcasts, you're in theater, you're in TV. Like you have this, this way of moving to the world creatively that doesn't feel like

your last idea was your best idea. And that you're grasping too hard on anyone thing. Yeah. Would you say that's true? Yeah, I think that's really beautifully put, thank you for saying that I receive it.

I think that, I think you're, I think people want to protect what they have.

And there have been, like, big cases about people saying this was stolen from this. There's this stuff. Sure. There's those things out there.

But I just sort of feel like I'm always evolving as a person, so therefore, the work

should be evolving as well. I feel like sometimes you see artists and they just keep kind of doing the same thing.

“You're sort of similar, as sometimes that works for people, but I think for me, I want”

my art to always reflect where I am in my life. Yeah. And I want to be in a different place in my life. And you're, you're never a snob. No.

But, you know, like, you like what you like and you like it passionately. And then you make things, like you're kind of high low in what you do and what you make. And also what I love about you is you love TV. I'm obsessed with television. Yeah.

I mean, yeah. It raised us. It was like, you know, a two-parent household, my mom and the television. I mean, are you watching when you're, like, what was the on TV? You know, it's interesting, like, I was a kid in the '90s and I think that was a really

interesting time for television.

I mean, there's a lot of sitcoms happening.

Yeah. We got perfect strangers. Yes. You got, okay, the cars we show a different world, obviously. Yeah.

It's like Martin and living single and also in living color. Yes. I mean, also we had Nick at night when we could watch the old shows, like Dick Band-Dike show, like, you know, obviously Marie Tellermore show. Were you watching that, Mary?

You know, it's interesting. I didn't really, it's interesting, like, like, starting music. You can't hear, like, when you're young jazz doesn't make sense to you. Yes. You can't hear it.

Yes.

“And I think with Mary, and especially when I got older and I started to watch friends”

and with a grace, William Grace has a sort of speed to it. And I think with Mary Tellermore, it took me a beat because it was a little bit, like, jazz. It was kind of slow.

Like, I mean, like, Chuck was biased to dust is one punchline.

Like, they're like, we're going to hold, it's like edging for comedy. Yeah. They're like, we're not giving this to you. Well, a lot of people might not know that you produced a Mary Tyler Moore documentary. And you, and I talked about this because we were both working on, on, like, comedic

legends. I did one about Lucy and as he. And Mary Tellermore is just this great example, I think of, like, what you talk about, which is TV that felt like ahead of its time and also just super cozy. Yeah.

What did you, when you got to know her and her work, like, more, it's so well said. It's like a sound. You have to get used to it. You have to get used to it. Yeah.

And did you start to understand her music and what made you want to do that project? Well, I think I didn't really understand it until I was in college when I had to sort of watch it because if you, I studied writing a producing and television at Columbia College, I did. And you wanted to be a TV writer at seven.

Yes, I did. How did you know that was a job? I feel like later, people were just like a TV talking, like they're making things like veterinarian and astronaut. I know.

And fire person. I, you know, I think I just, I would see names in the credits.

“And so that's why I see Susan Phil's Hill and Debbie Island.”

I knew their names were under their faces, and he went leave before she was a belly Bowser. And of course, I came to know all of these women and thank God. But I just saw that show and I said, I want to be a part of this. And also, I was aware that, you know, my mother, my grandmother, my aunt, the neighbors.

We would all gather in my grandmother's bedroom because that's where the TV was. Yeah. And we were just sitting and watching TV. And it was very communal. And so I think I knew I wanted to be a part of it.

But with Mary, I didn't get it until I was in college. And I got the box set on VHS and like watched the best episodes and things like that. And I just sort of was fascinated by her as a human being as our writer, memoir, after all, when I was in college. And that's what really kind of sent me down a rabbit hole.

It was before you could just like Google somebody. Totally. You have to read about them. And her memoir so well written this long. I think it may be out of print.

Everybody brought it back. But anyway, after all's a great memoir, what she talks about being an alcoholic, being the daughter of an alcoholic, she talks about losing her son. She's a nice little suicide, losing her brother to cancer, losing her little sister to a suicide.

I mean, the woman that turned the world on with her smile dealt with a lot of dark things in her life. And that, to me, that sort of juxtaposition was really fascinating. And I was just fascinated by this person. And I think, you know, for what she did for women in comedy, there was something dainty about

her. Yeah. But not precious. Yes. And I definitely think you're one of the descendants of Mary Tellermore and terms of some

saying that she was really important in my house. My mom, you know, I had a young mom and my mom used to just like love and laugh, love that show and laugh at that show. And it is really interesting when you're a kid, you're paying attention what your parents are laughing at.

Absolutely. And she, Mary Tellermore was reminded me of my mom because it was like, she was like, getting more, you know, what is it getting more flies with honey than she was sweet, but she got her way, and her and Lou Grant, like Nick offered, and I would talk a lot about

But Mary, Mary was like, and she was so, like, she was, you could tell she was genuinely funny and that ensemble on that show was show funny. Yes. And I think that speaks to why you're such a descendant of hers because she knows what it is to allow people to shine around her to not make it all about her, you know, it's

her show. Yeah. But she wants to be by the show. Yeah. But Carol Burnett was like that too.

He's like that too. Yes. Yes. Yes.

She always talks about wanting people to win and succeed.

Yeah.

“You want to give them the same if you need to.”

I love that you were producing that. And you mentioned about watching it on VHS and I want to talk about VHS because you used to work at Blockbuster. Yes, I did. Okay.

And people. There are going to be people listening. now that don't on your cry. Don't understand how important blockbuster was. Well, first of all, what was blockbuster? Because you were like, it was a nice, okay? A library of film and TV. It was everything. I used to go there all the time. That's where you had to go to watch old stuff. Sometimes

see new stuff. This is the crazy big thing. Now you just said like you couch and hit a button. You have to go. You have to go, hope that in the new release wall that they weren't all gone. You have to go up and say, oh, did somebody return, you know, saying, uh, face off? Did somebody return face off? No. And I remember you go for you young people listening. You would go. It was a big day. You could get your popcorn. Get your candy. Yeah, you'd buy it there. Yeah, you would. Yeah. And you go

often with like friends or date and you'd stand in front of a giant wall of titles. Yeah, just the sleeve. Yeah. And you'd bring the sleeve over to the thing. And you like, if it was there, usually meant that they had it, but sometimes they didn't. They would work around. Most of the time they didn't, they didn't pop a movie. You covered it in late on the Sunday. Like, do y'all have uh, you have your ass in part and you have the latest. No, I don't. I got the old one. Okay, cool.

You're right. And then, and then you'd look and you'd want to get face off and you wouldn't. They wouldn't have it. So you'd be like, what other jobs and stuff. Okay, what else do you have? Like, okay, cool. You got powder? Okay, what's happening? I don't know. Like, it's just like the most of random. It's how I got my taste. I was just like, rid things up based on the cover.

“I'll read this. Okay, did you have to deal with like the blockbuster guys who like the,”

you know, there was like, like, like, the mini Quentin Tarantino's as well. Okay, my who were like directors or want to be, and they wanted to talk to you about film and school. You. Okay. Not a Chicago. Okay. They were like, more so just like, very obsessed with whatever they were obsessed with, but it was interesting people coming in. Yeah. It's like it was families. We also get mom saying, like, can my son watch this? And you're like, uh, wow, huh,

like as he had to buy lists and sex, I don't know. I don't know. He's watching Juggle Fevers. No, no, no. But no, a lot of parents really were concerned about what the

move was always happening. And I just was like, I depends on how you want to raise your

children to be honest with you. I don't want to be a part of this conversation. And you got blockbuster. You were so tied with blockbuster. You were so good at being a blockbuster person. You're a blockbuster. Blockbuster employee. Blockbuster employee. Wait, did you guys party to the blockbuster employee's party a lot? The one LA, we definitely got into some trouble. Like the one I transferred. We got transferred. Well, I asked to be transferred. I mean, this is,

which is, it's a, let's speak to who I am. I said, look, I want to keep this job transfer me to the one in LA. And they did. And it's like, they must have been an awesome employee. I was the best. Of course. I was like on top of it. Come on. I'm like going through the return bid, making sure it's empty. Yeah. You know, talking to people about movies, making recommendations. Like everyone was popping. And then you get to LA because why do you want to go to LA? Because

you want to be acting and writing and you want to. I went there because there's a semester in LA program through Columbia College, Chicago where they send like 12 students to go to Los Angeles to be on a Hollywood lot. You're writing spec scripts. People don't do it anymore. You write a script

of the show that already exists. So you can match the voice. And the crazy thing is I could never

crack Parks and Rec. But I did a 30 rock spec and I did a modern family spec. And I love Parks and Rec. But I just could not. I couldn't grab that voice. I could, I just sort of couldn't do it. And

“I don't have to lack of time. But what you have to kind of do is sitting in your part of your”

studio apartment trying to like come up like, what's the A story, what's it B story, what's it this? And I was able to kind of like play with those characters a little bit more on 30 rock. And I consider all kinds of like speaking to rhythm, had like a really percussive, very funny joke per ratio kind of situation. I don't want to get a lot of fun with the Tracy thing. You know what I'm saying? I think my boss story for him was like he promised that Obama was going to be this birthday party.

And yeah, that got me out to LA like writing those spec scripts and stuff like that and being on lots and being an assistant and being an intern. Well, then you assisted Gina Prince Blythewood. Yes, Blythewood. She said there's no L in it. It's like Python. I said when I was her assistant for two years, I always tell people like her last name is the most intense. Okay,

assistant for Gina Prince Blythewood. There you go. Okay, Gina. I love your work. Yes, come on. She's going to be so happy. I'm going to have a basketball. I'm going to have a B. Let's go. Reddobles.

“Yes, we had Regina Hallan. We had Viola talking about woman K. Come on. When is Gina getting here?”

I would love to talk to her because she did children of blood and bones. What did you learn from her? Like, what did you learn about being a boss from her? God, so much. She's so talented. Okay, so Gina is

very cool and I'll watch her navigate certain situations and she would never raise her voice.

She would never lose her temper. Yeah. And I think also, so funny, think about Marie Tellin' More. Yeah. At the top of that documentary, this guy is asking her there's very offensive like question, like kind of woman happened all kind of woman be married and have a child and have a career and the thing is is that Mary kind of just sits there in the cut and just responds in a way that's so eloquent and beautiful. Gina was a version of that

for me in terms of in person, in real time, where people would challenge her authority or would ask her if she really knew what she was doing and Gina would just never be like frazzled by it. She would just sort of become respond and show up and let the works be for herself. And so that's what I really learned from her is like don't lose your temper, let the works be for herself and get to not have a lose your cool. You talk about a disease. Yes. You talk about getting the

part in Master of Nun, which is where most people met you, but the world kind of got to know you.

“But you've mentioned Allison Jones. Oh, well. So Allison Jones, who's Allison Jones?”

She's an iconic casting director and she's someone who's discovered MIDI talents and I'm one of them. I give a disease credit for sure, but he in a really cool way when he was casting the would it were used to be called the untitled disease and sorry project. He said I want to just meet with people before I read with them and he said I want to meet interesting people. And Allison had met with me, you know, like that year earlier that year because she saw something I put on the

internet, which was like this pilot presentation, which will ultimately come 20s, which I was not in because again, no desire to be an actor. But I know desire. I think because in it's still my biggest goal is to be a great television writer. That's really all I ever wanted to be.

Obviously, yes, started from when I was young. I never thought I wanted to be on the screen.

I think I always wanted to be the person writing the words that they said. And that was just always what it was. And my actors are a great deal. I love a great TV star, a great movie star. I just didn't want that pressure that came with it. And all that comes with that, because it's a lot. Yeah. And so I, when I wrote the pilot presentation for 20s, it was, it was a, I was writing a thinly-billed version of my 20s and myself and what I my friends and all that. And so it got a little,

you know, buzz and people were talking about it. And I got a call that Allison Jones wanted to meet with me.

“I didn't even know who she was. I didn't. I was like, why is it casting director want to meet with me?”

I'm not casting anything. And when I went into, I walked into her office. Of course, I walked by the poster for Freaks and Geeks. I walked by the poster for Veep. I walked by the poster for Bridesmaids. And I'm like, okay, this person, uh, she's getting clear to me. She knows when the star walks to her office. So I sat with her. And we talked about television and we'd like to watch. And and what I think what I kind of understood in that moment is that Allison kind of picked up

on my taste being very varied and sort of around, we talked about Mod. We talked about Ann Martin. And we talked about all these different things. And she was like, okay. And then she asked me how did I have any desire to be an actor? And I said, no. And she said, okay, do you mind if I bring you in for some things? And I said, sure. And she did. She brought me in for an episode of Veep, which I completely failed because Julie Louie drivers was in the room and reading with me. And I was like,

oh, no, I can't. No, this is not about to happen. Oh, I'm just going on. And when you were nervous, you were nervous. I didn't know Julia was going to be in there. Right. And so I was like, what? Right. You all didn't. And then you were like, oh, I've just become friends with Julie. I love her. Her voices in the birthday. And we're not very

grateful. She's amazing. Let's work together. Okay, but, but what was cool about Allison Jones is

that she's like, okay, I'm not worried about that bring you in again for the comeback season 2, right? And I'm a person that had the comeback season 1 on DVD, watched it with the director's commentary, listen to Lisa and Michael talk about their process and everything about the chair. So I was studying. Okay, that series and hopefully was because I knew when I was watching the comeback when I was in college, in Chicago, still live with my mom. I was like, this is something different and new.

And this is crazy that she's coming from friends. And then he's coming from sex in the city and they're doing this totally. I understand, God, I got that at that moment. And the depiction of television writers in that show. It's like, how much are you talking shit? Like, what's going on? But also for, I'm going to say, Valerie, for Lisa, Kudro, too, to also give you a version of what actress can be in aging actress and what that can look like and how that can feel and the

do you know what the comeback is? And I said, yeah, I'm obsessed with it. She was like, okay, well, they're doing a second season. And I said, okay, what? And she was like, you want to come in and

“do in a press day. There's going to be a bunch of reporters. I think you'd be cool. She comes in,”

luckily Lisa, nor Michael Patrick came around the room. Thank God. Look, yeah, lesson learned. Don't be in the room. Don't let them be in there. So she's put me on tape. I said, like, a line. And then I got the call that Michael and Michael was directing that episode. And so he picked me, thank God. And that was actually my TV debut. Me being like one of the reporters for her press conference, whatever. And so me being on that set was it to me that was one of

those moments, one of those God moments. That was a big moment for me. And I remember I had a pitch

from my line the way I could say it a little bit better. And that's always a tricky thing because I'm

like, all don't be that person. I got one line. I have a thought on it. But Michael Patrick came to his credit, who I love. And he's been a wonderful mentor of mine. He's also kind of, you know, gotten on me a little bit too. He thinks I'm being a little too big from our bridges. But he, he heard it. And he said, you know, just better. That's better. That's better. And then, of course, later, Allison was talking to a disease. And she said, who was the interesting people? She said, oh,

“I think she'd be lean away. And that's how I literally went to his home,”

literally pulled up to his house, walked in, sat with him and Alan. Yeah, Alan. Yeah, that was your trainer on us, hearts of rights, what they created. Master of none. Yes, I mean, those two. And I just sat with him. And I think I was prepared for that moment because it was weird because I'm so used to doing staffing meetings. Yeah. And so what, for people they don't know, like a staffing meeting when you're a writer and you're trying to get a job, you kind of do like a general meeting.

Yeah, you sit and talk about yourself. And like, you know, you, they've often read a script of you actually would be a spec or an original, and they talk about that, talk about your life. And I just sat in front of them. And I was not unlike this. I was very comfortable in my skin. I just fallen in love with somebody. I was talking about all kind of stuff. And they just sort of kind of took like 30 minutes and three of us. And then that was it. And

I got to call that he wanted me to come read with him. It's so interesting. You're talking about writers taking meetings because I think for people that are listening, like, I don't think enough people know that writing for television, a lot of it is about like, will you be a person that people just want in the room? That's right. That's right. You got to be chill. You got to be laid back. You got to be a team player. You got to know when to be quiet. You got to know when to speak

up. You got to know the hierarchy. You got to know the politics of the room. Have you always known

how to do that? You were so naturally good at it. I mean, I know how to how to play my position. You know, I was a staff writer twice before I sold my own show. Right. So when you're a staff writer, you really are there just to, you're helping hand. You know, and you can't, it's also what I learned is that it's not your job to fix the show. And a lot of people come in there going, okay, I got it. That image, you know what I'm saying? It was never, never that. Even when I did get

handed an episode to write, obviously, the season two of Master of Nile, which often became the thing. It's given up a song. Literally, I mean. Oh, I'm very grateful first, but I'm a woman ever been. Okay, I'll stand right in, come to see where he's coming. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, these new ones up. You know, I didn't actually want to write that episode because I wanted to keep it separate. I was a lot of people, oh, yeah, you wrote on Master of Nile. It's like,

season one I didn't write on the show at all. Right. Now mind you, you know how it is when you're in between takes and you're talking and he's like, like, as he's like, I'm putting that in, I'll throw that in. I'm like, okay, bad cool. Yeah. But with season two and the him and Alan asked, well, how did you come out? And I told them the story. They were like, okay, that's an episode. We got to do that. And I was okay, cool, you're all right. I'm going to do this Spielberg movie. And

as he's on that forget he said, if you don't call right this, we're not doing that episode. I just was feeling like, not overwhelmed, but I was about to go do ready player one. Yeah. And I was going to

be in London and that was my first feature. And I didn't want to mess that up. It's just how

me come on. Come on. Where do you go from there? But he came to London to his credit. And we, a weekend, when I was not working and we sat in the hotel room, his hotel room, and just like, two days cranked it out. When you were when you were like digging deep for that story, your story, did you have any like, did you think about what you wanted to keep for yourself and what you wanted to give to the show? It's tricky, right? I mean, it's such a beautiful episode. And it's so

and it, and it really spoke to some in Angela. Oh, my, come. Angela Bassett, are you kidding me? Come on, just like, I actually told you that I was like, she didn't want to say no. I was like, there's no way she comes. She did not matter. You did not matter. Obviously obsessed with her. Yeah. You know, as he's in our boat or obsessed with Jackson 5 American Dream,

“that's what we named the character Catherine. Like, but I just was like, she's not going to do it,”

bro. I was like, you're nuts. I'm leading to my suitcase director episode, beautifully. Kim Whitley is an episode. What did I want to keep? I think what I wanted to do was be as vulnerable as I could on the page. Yeah. And I think what was so interesting about it, which I think surprised Alan and Aziz, they thought that religion was a big part of my story in terms of why my family wasn't

Not what will God think. And that was something that was unique in one of my favorite moments in episode is not unlike a real life when I told my mom I was gay. She looked around to see if anybody heard. Like, I win a diner. It's like these are strangers, like who cares what these other people think. And I think that spoke so much to, I don't know, like who I am. It doesn't, I don't think we being queer makes me more noble, more special, more interesting. And it's just a part of my humanity.

“And I think that's what I'm really trying to do. And that's saying that's trying to show”

my mother her own child's humanity. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. I mean, so beautifully done. So recognized for such, like it was recognized for such special work. Congratulations. Thank you so much, Amy. Our beautiful speech, too. You're so good. You're so cool and relaxed.

I mean, you're up there. Like, like, you just like, no nerves. Yo, I mean, well, look, it's you never know.

You know how this goes. Okay. But you never know. And some people, there were, it's interesting. Because you're relaxing. You relax people. Wow, appreciate it. Because you feel relaxed. Is that true? Are you relaxed inside your head? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you mean. I think there was a lot of talk. He's, I was up against two episodes of Atlanta by the way. One. Okay. And that was like, those were tough years. Yeah. Competitive years. Okay. But I'll give it to Donald Glover.

We were at the Shanton one. I'll never forget at the night before. He was all these parties. The night before it Donald said to me, with very confidence and the cool about him that he has, he said, you're going to take the writing one. You're going to take it. And I was like, I don't know, man. I was like, I don't know. He said, no, you got it. He's like, you got it. And Sterling K Brown was like, you're going to take it. So I'm getting this weird people are like,

you got it. It's yours. You got it. It's yours. Yeah. And then, you know, the history that came with it to be, you know, and now you just had Mindy here. She's one of the first women of color to be nominated in that category. If I was sending writing in a comedy series for the purpose of the office. And while the sites won't, but for sketch comedy, right? Just for for Chris Rockshow. And so when they told me when the academy said, no, you're the first African-American woman to ever

be nominated for, I'll send a writing in a comedy series for the primetime review where I was like, oh, huh, okay. And I think that just, it brought a different level of weight to it. Yeah. And I think what I wanted to do, I did think about how he buried when in that Oscar. And I remember watching and crying. Yeah. And it was, I was in Chicago. So it was late as hell. It was like, my mom had gone to bed. She said, I hope she will hope the black woman win. I was like, I know

“we'll see. And I remember that speech and she was very emotional. Yeah. And it's rightfully so.”

Yeah. But I loved how she sort of channeled the women that had come before her. For sure. You know. And I think what I wanted to do was to honor Susan Fills Hill, Debbie Allen, Ebellie Bowser, a junior principal. I thought all these women that had been in television writers rooms. I had influenced me. And and also wanted it to be a moment for the queer community as well. For us to be seen. And just for black women that want to write TV comedy. Totally. And you spoke about this too,

which is like comedy, which also just, you know, I think like any, any person that feels like they have to, um, any person that feels like they're representing a lot of history and a lot of people.

Yeah. That isn't always the easiest thing for comedy. Right. Yeah. Because comedy is like,

there's nothing worse in me. Like, I'm going to write something very important. Like, write a lot. I mean, come on. Like you know, you're like, I'm going to write a classic sketch. I've got white women everywhere. Yeah. I'm going to change some minds. It's my company. It's like,

“I love I'm glad that that episode missed so much to so many people. And you must have”

people all the time coming up and talking to you about it, right? Yes. That's cool. Really, you can expect a lot of straight white news. They love it, which is always fascinating to me. I bet you have a lot of straight white dude fans. I do. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because they love Master of not, they love ready player ones. Yeah. Exactly. What was it like working with Steven Spielberg? Oh, my God. We got to interview him for the

Coleman Domingo episode. He gave Coleman a question. And I was saying him like, you know, he was just thanks for giving me all of my memories. Yeah. Thank you for doing all the happy childhood. Yeah. Like I'm sure everything you've ever done is in my head forever. Yeah. But what was he like to be directed by him? He's like the best dad you could ever ask for. Yeah.

And I always say he's a giant that doesn't make you feel small. That's that's who he is. He's very

aware of his, of his bigness. He's aware of the history that walks into the room when he does.

in the room as well when I auditioned for a player one. Thank God. He hired me on the tape. Like, you know, like, I came in. Obviously for Ellen Lewis, who's also another iconic cast and director. And I could tell when I walked in the room, it was just very comfortable that she saw something and then brought me in again. And I think she had a conversation with Steven. I think that was a part of how I got in that film. And but he just, he took to me. And it's so fun. There's a level

of trust that was there before even getting on the set. And he wanted to, he said, we're going to,

“I could tell you to like run off this cliff and you would do it. I said, yep. Yep. That's how”

much I trusted him. And you will, you'll follow him till the end of the earth because you know that his heart is in the right place. You know that he wants to make something classic something iconic. I feel like you like when there's like a strong leader. I do like her legs. Yeah. And that's sort of like when a person is leading with their heart. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just sort of has everybody's best interests, you know, in mind. Are you the kind of person if there's no

leader, it'll be you. Look, it depends on the situation. It's like, do I need to get in here? Because I don't want to feel like I have to control everything. I don't want to be that person. Why no. I don't know. You know how to do it. I mean, somebody's going to do it. I mean, I mean, it's the first of all, a lot of my friends, but we're like, oh, really? You don't want to control everything. Like a trip. If you're going on a trip with your friends, are you the

person that plans to trip? I want to sort of curate the experience more so they can control it. Well, this is the same thing. Okay. God, I'm at therapy right now. God, this is being created. You're killing me. I love that. But see, I love that because I, that's your love language. Why? I want to make sure we have a good time. I just want to talk about Shiver's second congratulations on it. Like, you're now it's done. Yeah, I'm all of this. Like, it's a little

whenever this airs. When this airs, it will have been done. Wonderful. Perfect. And you are going

to be, you will have, you know, successfully wrapped eight seasons of a show, which never happened.

I want to park some red go. You can't even remember. This is a good question. The fact that you don't know off top seven or eight. So it tells me everything I want to know is the seven or eight. This is why we have to stop because people are like, you're going to want to get you not knowing is everything I want in life. Okay. I know Murray told him more when seven seasons. First

“is iteration of second city went six. Willing grace was eight seasons. I think I think we did.”

This is what happens when you make television. Also, you forget. This has come in a pause. Okay. Okay. I'm here. Here we go. Perry. I'm here. Hey. Come on. Good work. So fun. Look. Nice work. It's so great. Nice work, baby. Parks and Rec had seven seasons. Wow. So you're very Murray tell them more. Okay. I'm one more, one more than you. And yeah, and you guys did eight and, you know, you might not know. We might not know. We did it season six with 16 episodes.

I've heard you talk about that. Were they were like, we love it more and you're like, this is so great. Yeah. No more because people don't seem like me out. I like him. Baby, I like him. I like him. I mean, it's cable. What are we doing? When you, we used to do 20, we had really

uneven seasons. Like six seasons, six episodes of the first season. And then what do you

“say? Twenty one and then twenty four and then 16. And then at the time, we, I think we were in”

the 20s and to do 20 episodes of TV. As people will probably notice from episode 14, 16, 60 got a little goofy because you, you started an arc that ends like, you know, at about episode 11 or 12. And then you got to kind of start another one that's going to take you to the end of the season. And in between, you're like, let's have an episode where we're all like, you know, just, would it treat yourself happen though? Great question. Just because like that

feels like, you, it's an audience member. You wonder, is that y'all just being tired and landing on something? I can't imagine. Or is it like, we're, well, this is something we, we think could actually really take season four episode four. So we were a little fresh. We were still a little fresh. Yeah, that that feels about right. Yeah. Because that, that was something that just just stuck. And it's still, I still get those gifts from people. Like, they're just like, treat yourself a thousand

living. Come on, man. What? And we still like, we, we'll say it like a little bit.

By Allen Yang. Come on, Allen Yang. And congratulations on a incredible run. Thank you so much.

I mean, it does not happen anymore. I know. And it is so true. And, and, you know, like, you also, you, we didn't even really talk about it, but, you know, we both spend time in Chicago,

city. It's over the past eight years, the show. And it's relationship to the city has changed.

“Like, it's, it's, it's, it, do you have people from Chicago feel like real ownership of that show?”

How do they talk to you about the show when they talk to you about it? I mean, they're mad that is going away. Yeah. They're like, what? Just do it forever. I'm a fucking dude. That's like on this one stuff. Yeah. But they feel like these characters are their family. Yeah. And they feel very connected to them. I remember when Parks and Rec went, when, when you guys close the curtains and you guys were doing all the press. And, and I remember watching all those

interviews and watching all of you because I was a person that watched the entire series, it does feel like a part of you is like not going to be there anymore. Yeah. And so, and like you're going to miss the characters. You're going to miss the characters. I'm going to miss the people, the writers, you know how that is. It's just, it's a family. It becomes a family. You know, it's, it could be dysfunctional sometimes. Yeah. And it's a work. But you realize how special that

is to make something that the world watches and that people care about. I want to do a very quick speed around about Chicago, coldest you've ever been. Oh, my God. Let me tell you something.

“Winters, as you know, in Chicago, I just relentless. They, they, they test you. I think it's”

why I'm so cool. I think you're right. I think that there's like a Midwestern thing. First of all,

nobody ever talks about the weather because it's like, what's the point? It's like, accepted, deal with it. Yeah. No one walks around saying it's cold. Like, I'm waiting on a bus. Yeah. Chicago. Okay. And on the train. Yes. And the cold weather walking from the train station to my home. Yeah. Like, you don't, don't, don't, don't talk to me. Like, I don't, I'm nothing scares me. Like, I'm not bothered by you. You're at it too. Like, I've had to walk and snow to get to where I

have to go on a train on the bus, like waiting on a bus in the coast. Yes. Don't talk to me, don't do it. Okay. That's concert or best music you've ever seen there. A best concert. Oh, see, here's the deal. I got to do two. Okay. Prince and Whitney. Oh, Mike. What? I know. But here's a deal. I would have loved to talk about musicality. Here's a deal. A big influence my mom had on me. She did not like the fact that I couldn't hear Prince when I was young. I heard

you talk about this. I love this. Say that. Say that. I just didn't get it. And she would play me Prince a lot. Well, you might have also been like, like, nobody wants to like be into what their mom is into. Even the coolest mom. Like, if you're like, this is really great. Your kids just like, they want to be their own person. Maybe was I? I don't know. Okay. She would play him a lot, which is like makes sense now. You think about in the car, in the house. And

I just was like a young person that just said, I don't, what is this? What's happening? And so now fast forward, he's coming to Chicago and I'm in college and she's like, you're coming. And I said, why would I want to go to a concert of somebody who's music? I don't like. And she said,

“because you don't understand that you need to understand and no child of mine is not going to be”

a fan of friend. I mean, this is really she's not drinking her friend, Monique. They in the front seat, I'm in the back upset. And we're going through like United Center. I don't know. And we pull up there. I go to this concert. And I am like baptized in a way by his music. And I

hear it for the first time live. And I'm like, stand on my mom or her friend. They just have

the best time. And I'm just just in awe. And we have, I still have a t-shirt. We got a t-shirt from that concert. I still have it. And I walked out of there different. And I went and bought all the energy to go to record store. I went, bought all the records and was like listen to everything. When it's a watch purple rain. It just really was educated. And it was one of those things where I was really grateful that she was like, you need to know what this is. And then fast forward,

I'm in LA. And he's had this whole, like, you know, a sit at the forum. And for a while. And I would go to those concerts and like listen. And I haven't tattooed on the back of my leg. Now, like, I have a prince tattoo in the back of my leg. And then Whitney Houston, which also have her tattooed here on my arm, paparazzi photo of her sticking her tongue out. I'm just, I've been a Whitney girl since, you know, her greatest overall. And I'm not alone

in that, you know, growing up in the '90s and being born to '80s, she was it. She was it. There was nothing. There was no one else. There is nothing else. And I just remember

finally, like being in the same space. And she was, and my love is your love really was like a

combat, spring into the combat. And it was her sort of coming back and saying, like, I'm not done yet.

And I didn't even understand the significance of that. You know, as a young person, I'm like, oh, come out with new music. What? Oh, man, you know, you're getting a greatest hits. It's just she's coming out with some new stuff. And that was even really important for me to see that, for her to say, this is where I am now in my life. And I'm going to be rocking with Wycliffe and Missie Elliott and Roddy Jerkins and Laura Hill. And these people are who they are without

“me being who I am. And I remember that album in those videos and me just feeling really,”

and I have a t-shirt from that one, which I wear often. And it's something about those, those shirts and those mushrooms. When you go to concerts, like, grab a t-shirt. I know. There's so many concerts. I, like, I regret, like, one of my, I went to like new edition was one of my first concerts. And I thought we love you. God, I wish you could come to the cook out. You're coming. You're there. You're awesome. Come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, we would us. We love you, Bobby. We're in like, come on. Come on. I look at who cares. But man, I wish I had a t-shirt. I would do it, Janet Jackson concert. On the top of the rhythmation, I still have that one. Like, the March shirts, there's something of, it's a piece of history, the fact that I can still fit my damn, yeah, that should show. Well, can I talk to you about the way you dress for a second? Because I do it. Because I love it. Thank you. And you have such good

“style. Honestly, a lot of times when I see you at events, I'm a little jealous of how comfortable”

you look compared to everybody else. It's the park of being a lesbian. It's a mass park. Yeah, so many parks. So we don't have to deal with men. Like, I mean, that's the main one. We really don't look at that show. Very hard. I mean, that bell. It's so true. It's so true. And like, if you, your style, I love your style.

And it's very you. It's really like, it's, it's, it's always changing. It's always interesting.

It is like always right for the event that you're at. But you are never, like, it's just like you, as a person, you're just never trying to art. Sure. And it's always cool. Thank you so much. And do you have a style? You pick all the stuff yourself? Well, it's something, because I do, Jason Bolden, who is Cynthia, is like, he's actually hairstyle. He would joke and be like, "Lin, I'm your style with two sometimes." Yeah, yeah. But he actually do a real work. They like,

do a stuff and every conversation. So Rupal always says, "Everybody's in drag." And I think, for me, I want to feel how on the outside how I feel on this. And I just feel comfortable in the way that I dress. And I always want to feel comfortable. I never want to feel like I'm trying to be something I'm not. And make someone else feel comfortable. I don't want someone else's

comfort to be a priority. When did you figure out your own style? When did you always have it?

You know, it's interesting, because I'm doing a clothing line right now. Oh, perfect. I'm going to put a proximity. All right. With the designer, her name is Knox. And she's from New York. And she, you know, I like the work. I just want to wear designers that reflect who I am. She's a queer black woman. And we were friends. And we were like, and this is, you know, part of what she's doing. Like, she made this for me. And I wore this to a premiere of

him. I'm wearing it again. I like repeating things as well. I'm just letting folks know that like every outfit doesn't have to be new or different. But I think I sort of, I used to wear those T-shirts where they was, it was a whole town people wearing T-shirts with like a whole paragraph. It was like a little funny joke. It was the, that was a thing. I was with so much. I was like, Lord help me. It's so glad I grew out of that. But then I got into vintage like stuff like vintage shirts and things like

that meant something to me. Yes. And I was like, okay, cool. And then I got, you know, make it a little bit of money. I'm like, okay, cool. I'll get a little designer thing here. And then you can do the thing where you want the designer brand there, right there. So people know you were in Valentino. Yeah. Then you get old and you realize, I don't want nobody to know that I got Valentino on. Right? Right. You know, Rashida does quite luxury. Yes. You know, the white T-shirt costs $5,000.

I mean, listen, I'm always asking Rashida. I'm like, what, where does this go? And she's like,

she's right now. She's in the biggest clothes I've ever seen. Okay. Everything is gigantic. Japanese. Oh, my God. Everything, she, she, she walks in on my clothes. This is what we're doing now. It looks incredible. Every day she wearing is incredible. She's so chic and just easy. Like, I took a lot to surround say, okay, the little plain little jacket, little, this little, I still, I still a little bit where Rashida, I'm like, okay, Rashid.

“But I think I think style is not on like your voice. So you have to try different things”

find it over time. But I do think my queerness does lend itself to my style. A little bit part of it is because I don't live under the male gaze. I don't have this desire to press dudes. Right. I will even impress like women. I'm just sort of, I'm like, what looks good to me?

that is like all about people who are celebrating the way in which they've discovered who they are. And this is a show called the Jellicle Ball. This is true. And that is the Jellicle Ball. That's the Jellicle Ball. You're a producer on it. Yes, one of the co-producers. And talk about watching in real time people like figuring out like how I want to, how I want to be in the world. Not only how I want to dress, but how I want to move, how I want to be an artist,

“like how did you get involved in working with that show? When did you first see it?”

And why did you want to be part of it? Well, thank God Cynthia saw it first. She was here in New York

and went to see that pack when it was off Broadway. And she called, she said, you got to see the show. You got to come down. You got to come in New York City. Oh boy, and a bit people might be like a little intimidated once in the revos in the audience. That's a, that would be, I would be laughing. I think they were very exciting and very much so off their skills. But she was there. She guest judges over there at pack and so on. She called me. She was like, there's something

that's a level of intensity in somebody's voice where they're like, now you come. And so it's okay. So I came saw and was blown away and said, okay, well, this should transfer to Broadway. I hope, and if it does, I said, I think we should be producers on it. And it wasn't the easiest thing. I think because, you know, there's a lot of producers on Broadway shows and there's sort of requirements and things that people need. And we just said, trust us, like we need to be a part of this,

because we want to make sure everybody knows about it. We want to get out there and like wave the flag and be on this amazing podcast and talk about it and all that stuff. And so we were grateful to the lead producers to this. Yeah, you guys should come on and be a part of this. And, you know, it's been a black buster. I watched Paris's burning. Yeah, that documentary because it was on the

shelf. And I saw it one day and I said, I'm going to watch this doc and I've never stopped watching it.

I can't rewatching it again and again and again. And I was seeing what I wanted to be. I was seeing these people with these big personalities and saying funny things. They're hilarious. We look back and watch Paris's burning. There's just joke, joke, joke. They're not even trying. They're just being hilarious. And I mean, that's, that to me is like a real love language. It's when people like tease each other. Oh my gosh. It's like, it's like, the white version of T-shirts.

Black versions, though, shade. You know what I'm saying? It's like, we're going to shade, like being fierce. We're talking trash. And so I just love how the, what Paris's burning, they're really obviously helped to influence, you know, castes at local ball and also influence polls and things like that. But to see Junior LeBagia, who was in the documentary and a lot of people in the documentary have since passed away for him to be on that stage every night. And

it being able to feel that love and receive it. I'm honored to witness it. And I've seen it twice on obviously on Broadway. Obviously, once on off Broadway and it's something that just brings me so much joy. Well, we got to talk to the directors. Oh, come on. The Tony Award winning

“director. That's what they are now. They're the best. And we got to talk well behind”

your back with that. Oh my goodness. Because the dynamic duo. First of all, I was very stressed. I felt like they brought way too many relatives to the Tony. Well, come on. They had a lot of people in those seats. Yeah. And at one point they were saying they had to talk to everybody and I was like, no, you don't look that you're night. Yeah. But they, but they, but they spoke, of course, so beautifully about just what you were saying, which is that you guys, you know, you and Cynthia

like use your currency to get this show where it needed to be. And you saw something right away that meant so much to them. And that, you know, that is kind of you in a nutshell, Lena. Like you are, you are an artist who really loves other artists. You really support. And like you like what you like. And when you like something, you really want people to know about it. Like you are,

you know, you're a mentor for so many people. And you're also just like never forgetting that

you're a fan and a student at the same time. It's awesome. And they love working with you. And they had a couple of questions for you. Oh my goodness. And evidence. And evidence. Okay. And so Jalen's question was, who is the person that you see on the dance floor? Or what kind of person do you see in the dance floor that gets you excited that makes you think this is going to be a good party? Oh, like who do I, if I see them on the dance floor is going to be a good time? You know,

name me. Are you looking for, might not even be a specific person, but a kind of person. Wow. A kind of party. You know what's interesting? Because I, I love, I love to dance, but I don't necessarily

“need to be in the center. I know because you're cool. I know. I know that's what cool people”

can do. They can't on the side. They can't on the side. I know. Oh, oh, oh, oh. They're so barely moving like a girl.

like I've been in puffing. Go for it. But you don't want to, I fuck with those people. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

“because you need that person party pump. You need to be awesome. I'll tell you what I can bring to a party.”

What's that? I'll be the first one on the dance floor. Yeah, you will. Because you're not, you don't have any color. I don't care. And somebody's got to start it. And nobody wants to. And we've been in a like industry pressure. It's like, there's a great DJ. Nobody's dancing. We got to start this. Like, what are we going to talk to? Like, enough of that. And I will I'll sacrifice myself and be number one. That's hopefully a friend. But this is trying to

call us our love reading a bossy pants. I love that section about you. What Tina said is like, would AB got in there? It was like, oh, things have changed. Things are going to be different around here. Such a great passage where she talks about you coming to SNL. And I think that's so reflection of you at a party. You're not afraid to be the first. Well, I'll be a bearer, I don't care.

Which is what makes you amazing. But what, who do you like to see? What type of person?

What type of person? Or like, is there a friend that you're like, okay, they're here? You know what? I like a person who can actually dance. Like, I'm not skilled. You're not taught. We just go in off of the vibes. Who's a good dancer? Well, a lot of the cast from cats. Like, we have a after party. I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm not, yeah, I'm not even doing a two step over here. I'm able to let y'all do what you do it. Like, yeah, I think a lot of the drag queens are doing a

different kind of vibe, because they, because they know a choreography. Yes, that's the thing. Like, dancers who, and performers, I really, I really love watching them because there's an art to it. There's something to it. I was saying earlier, it's like magic. It is. I like watching people dance.

“That's right. That's why I don't, I'm like, I don't want to get in the way. I don't, I want to just”

like catch a vibe, be a part of the groove. But I love watching people that actually know how to dance because I could watch them all night. Okay. And the last question today is, what are you because I know you love, you're like a culture vulture. You keep up. Yeah. What right now are you watching listening to? What are you into? Give me some wrecks. Oh, wait. It could be a video that you can't start watching. It could be so much. I'm like, let's, let's, let's, let's let,

have it be funny. Okay. I can't watch anymore. I know you're going to say no, I thought to go have man. I'm sorry. I was about to say you were going to go have man. Baby reindeer. Okay. I'm looking the last. No, I'm sorry. I know. I'm not going to take the attention to comedy. I know. I know. Oh, God. Okay. Damn. Are you a couple's therapy here? Okay. Couple's therapy. Let's do what you said season. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. First of all, I was brutally going

to tell you what. I'll take it away from this specific couple and just say in general, what

“is so good about couples. Please. I think is that you want it and you're like, I got these”

stupid. You stink. You stink. Like you're always proving a little wrong. I am anyway. Like

it's like, I know what this problem is. This person, this person, you think you're good. I'm like therapy. Yeah. And then they start to talking. You're like, oh, they're not here for that. They're for the other thing. And also, I don't know what I'm talking. You know, like, I'm like, we don't know anyone's shit. I'm not smart. Yeah. I'm not smart. Yeah. I'm not smart. I'm not smart. Yeah. I'm not smart. I'm not smart. I'm not smart. I'm not smart. I love it. Exactly. Like, I love being

proven wrong. And I'm like, that guy's not right for her. And she's two, whatever. And then it's like, you're not, you're not, you're, you're, you're wrong. Like, you're not, you're not, you're not, you don't know. And the way in which you watch how communic, how different everybody's communicates, science are, well, very different. Everybody should be watching couples therapy. I agree. Whether you're in a relationship or not. Absolutely right. Okay. You learned so much by yourself.

You want so much. And those couples are awesome. They're participating in it. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Truly. Yeah. Because what I also learned is that we all have childhood traumas.

There comes out around episode four. Oh, yeah. And it's never what you expect. Nope.

Ever. Oh my god. And, and you see how that is playing out in their relationship. Yeah. And my hope is, and I'm also, you know, I've, I've, in therapists. I'm in therapy. I'm just like, my therapist. Sorry about it. Relax. But I, I, I, I've learned a lot about myself in terms of how I show up as an adult based on how I was raised. I mean, so it sounds very simple and easy to understand. But you sometimes have to really question your own behavior. Like, why did I do this?

Why did I behave this way? Why am I struggling with boundaries? Like, what is that? And it's all because I didn't have, my mom had boundaries to me when I was a kid. And so now I have to learn

without saying goodbye, right? It triggers her in a way that I wouldn't think it would. And that's

“why I think, um, burning in therapy that vulnerability is a strength. And a lot of people want to protect”

that or I don't want to tell you this, this heart thing. And the thing I learned to is like, truth does no harm. And that and so I've had to get really honest with like, people I love or or say, like, hey, this is a part of me that I'm ashamed of, I'm embarrassed by, but I want to say it out loud and see where you stand, not to test you to see if you'll stay. But rather say you know exactly who I am and you can make an informed decision about whether or not you want to stay.

It's that's so well said. And, and you, Leanie, you just said something that wrote, like, I watch it a lot to just get scripting for how to say things. Wow, that's good. Because it's like, sometimes I like break the window and there's a door right next to it that's open. Like, you want to get something out. But the way you say it, it's like, it's, it's good practice just what you just said. Like, hey, I want to share this thing with you and I want to know how you feel.

But like, just the gentle way into the vulnerability is like, it's just practice. Because if you don't see it, you know, if you don't see, if you don't have tools or practice to figure out how to talk to people about how you feel, then it just can be like either shocking or like you said, like, we withdraw or we like over, it's humans are fascinating. They would really, and I think that's what I love to show so much. And it's so interesting because, you know, I hear sometimes single people,

particularly in this current case, single women who have a certain age and they're like, I'm single

“and the only way I want a relationship is if it brings joy to my life, it makes me happier.”

And it's so funny because always think that is not how our relationship feels like that's not how

it goes. Like if you expect somebody to come and bring just joy and happiness and fun or romance, like, no, it's like imagine looking in a mirror all the time. Yeah, a real true relationship makes you confront the stuff and you just want to run away from it. Totally. We are fascinated with the beginnings of things. Fascinating with like young people, young love, people falling in love, they're just so into it. And then everybody gets there and then we never ask them another question again.

We never talked to people who've been married for 10 years and like, how is it going? What's going on? Whatever. We're just like interested in who people are dating or when they break up or whatever. But the middle of the in-between is like, nobody even, nobody talks about it. They don't. Nobody asks any questions about it. And it's the same way with like, I'm finding the same way with like middle age. Like people really fascinated with like, you know, young people on the rise

and they're fascinated with like the grovey toss of the legend, the legend, they're like, there's a lot of middle here. Yeah. There's a lot of things happening. That's true. You know,

“I mean, I'm 42 and so I think. No, maybe little tiny, maybe. What? 42. So cute.”

No, no, no, no. 42. 42. 42? Is it interesting? Is it interesting? It's just too many. I don't know. No, it's weird. I feel it. I'm like, I'm a young elder. I'm a child. I was by choice. I haven't done no desire to raise children. But I think what you're saying is, in terms of the falling, the newness of something. I think that to me is something I do get a little frustrated when we won't fantasize the me cute. Oh, yeah. And the me cute is cool. It's great.

Yeah. But I think what I'm learning so much is the comfortable and the boredom. Yes. Comfortable and the quiet. Or how about this? What is contentment? Like, what is contentment? Like, because familiarity breeds content. That's right. And, oh, we talk about this forever. I know. We got it. I mean, because there's nothing like, I mean, I'm sure you watch a couple. There will wrap it up by saying, a couple of therapy can kind of feel like almost like a board game,

where you're watching after many seasons. And then something like a person will say something. And their partner will be like, oh, oh, and rather as you're like, and there it is. A couple of therapy is so good. It's just great. Like everyone else, that's my big thing. Couples therapy. And I'm trying to think that they're like, I'm going to just watch as much therapy as it is. I know. And like music,

I'm trying to think I don't have my phone. But like, please listen to, um,

Tim's T. E. M. S. Amazing Singer. Love him. She's great. That Lauren Hill tribute.

For not alone. Lauren has to get up there. Lauren said, I can't let you do a tribute out. He'd be at a party. I know. She should let me get up here and do my song. One album. But technically, people sleep on on plug. Go listen to Lauren Hill on plug. Back with MTV used to do that. I love that album. Love that record. Her voice is like, scratchy. And she's real. She doesn't been through some stuff. It's like, it's the album post success.

But God, it would have taken. I would have, I wish like, I wish there was like 10 more albums for her.

I can't demand labor. I know. We have people sleeping. I know we're not going to get out of here. I know. I'm probably late for another hang that I'll supposed to have. And they're like,

“what was you doing? Hey, what Amy? Classic. That's what we're going to do.”

Thank you for coming. Do you want this to be so fun? Thank you so much, Lina Weth. That was so fun. I could have talked to you forever. And we talked

“about so many great things. And so for this polar plunge, I just want to remind everybody how”

incredible Debbie Allen is. If you haven't seen her work, Debbie Allen was, well, she kind of

broke into the scene for us anyway in a show called Fame where she places incredible dance teacher.

“And Debbie herself is a choreographer and actress and producer. And she was Lydia Grant,”

who was telling Lee Roy to find the soul within him to learn how to dance. And she has,

she did a million episodes of a different world. You can catch her talking to Lina Weth

on her podcast, Legacy Talk. They have a incredible conversation. And she's the sister of Felicia Rashad from the Cosby Show. I mean, talent, family up the Wazoo. So Debbie Allen, if you're listening, I love you. Thank you for being so talented in so many things. Thank you for listening. Thank you for doing the podcast, Lina. And thanks everybody. And we'll see you soon. Bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]