Is It True? If I Don’t Punish, I’m Permissive (with Myleik Teele)

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Actually, no, sorry. Your kid is jumping in mud in their dress clothes. After you said, "Please don't jump in the mud in your dress clothes." Whatever it is, no matter where you are.

There is always one person who walks by a situation like this

and gives you the look. And you know the look, because the look has a voice. Even if you don't hear anything, and the voice says, "You're gonna let them go away with that." And the voice then says to you, "If I don't handle this firmly

and harshly, I'm gonna look permissive." I'm gonna look like, "I let my kid walk all over me. I'm gonna look like I am reinforcing bad behavior on permissive. I'm a pushover." Now, I'm just gonna put it on the table.

I've had that thought myself many times. So, if this sounds familiar to you, I don't have a camera into your brain. I just can hear my own brain. But here's the thing.

Is punishment actually the opposite of permissiveness? Hmm. Today we're gonna try something new. My friend, one of my favorite people to talk with about anything. My league deal is back with me, and we're going to start

myth-busting. Some of the stickiest parenting beliefs out there. And this one thought that if I don't punish permissive, is something that I think a lot of us just hold as truth. It's kind of non-fiction.

Maybe it's not true. Or maybe that thought needs a little updating.

“That's what we're gonna talk about today.”

I'm Dr. Becky, and this is good inside. I'm so glad you're here. This is a series we're calling, "Is it true?" In each of these types of episodes, we're going to take one parenting idea. That sounds obvious, you just kind of move past it.

Something we've said, or believed, or just held as the truth, and we're just going to get curious about it. We're going to also ask, "Is this idea helpful in the way we want to show up?" So, my league, when you hear, if you don't punish your permissive,

what does that stir up in you? I feel like so many people, if you see a kid, whatever the action is, a good parent does something. A good parent has an equal or greater. Reaction has an equal opposite reaction.

Yeah, so it's like, if you do this, oh, you broke that, you hit that. Let me take it up, a notch, and there's the publicness of this,

“but I think the stop plays out and private, too.”

I really think it's one of the oldest, deepest beliefs, and maybe it's so old because it's literally old from generations. I can't let them get away with it, which I think is related. Letting someone get away with something means I'm not punishing it. Right.

Is that, it feels like those are almost the same. Right, how will they get better if you don't punish it? How will they learn? Then they think, I think it's okay. It's okay.

So, okay, so your kid does something in front of you. Right, either you say, oh, stop jumping on the couch, and they keep jumping on the couch, or they just say something really rude to you, or they don't listen, and if you don't punish, is it? That you feel permissive or like, what's the language that really you think parents

I know, in that moment, I'm probably thinking, oh, you think I'm weak. You think you can get over on me. You think that you're in charge, you know, you think you're the boss. You do whatever you wanted to around here. And so, if I don't let you know who's in charge at all times,

yeah, you know, I'm not doing my job.

“Look, first of all, I think you're right.”

So, thank you for naming that, and I just picture parents being like, yeah, that is, yeah, that's it. Because it's, it's really, like, deep, like if you think about that, like what? So, it's, because this can happen, like, arc, it can be two. Yeah, it could be six. They could be ten, but they can beat who?

Yeah. And my kid does something I say not to do. I'm like, oh, you think you're the boss of me? Like, I don't, maybe, say that, but that, oh, you think, yeah, you're saying a weak. Yeah, you think, yeah, you can do whatever you want around here.

You just get up, you, you, oh, you're not wearing that, you're throwing that away. You're, you're not eating that?

What? Can I ask your question never thought about this?

Yeah. Do you think when you're sleeping, and it's 2 a.m. with your formaldelled, and they're screaming for you? Yeah, right? Right. Do you think parents that are like, oh, you think you're the boss of me?

Or no, not then? No. Well, just, let's walk through that. I've never thought about that. Like, when does it, when does it, why not at four months?

“Yeah, but I think at that age, we really do believe that they are helpless.”

But I think that the more that they are able to do, and, you know, the more we start shifting. We're changing colors, cups. Now we're, we're changing meals. We're, we're doing all of these things that they want us to do. And then when we asked them to do something, and they don't do it, it's like,

I've been doing, I've been doing this all day. Yeah, putting your shoes on, changing your pants. And now I ask you to do one simple thing, and you can't do it. So who's in charge of your mirror you? So I just think that that's interesting to track.

Like, it's true when my baby cried in the middle of the night, right? I didn't, or I took them out in an outfit and they spit up on it. I'm definitely not like, oh, you think you're the boss of me, right? Like, oh, you think we're just going home because of, you know, we're like, I had a plan to go out.

We don't really think that with our nine months though. We don't. But at some point, it does start to happen. Yeah. And it's just, it's not kind of nonstop.

Yeah, it is. But you know what's interesting, it's nonstop because we see the world through whatever glasses we're wearing, right? And maybe you're saying at a certain age,

never thought about this way.

One of the sets of glasses, I don't even think we realize. Are on all the time is just power. Yes, less power. Right. I was going to ask you that because I'm like, I'm talking,

I'm noticing the glasses and I'm like, at some point they come on and they never come off. Right. Yeah, I'm always seeing it that way. Is it power dynamics?

Are you evaluating your own strength and worth? Yes, through your toddlers. Whether or not they're doing what I say some time. Yeah, that's, yes, it is true. I am, is that not a good equation?

Yeah, yeah, I am doing that. Even if even if I don't want to be doing it, I'm doing it. Yeah, why? A lot of us, if we think back on our earliest years,

a lot dynamics were around power. Power, fear. Yeah. Right, I'm going to, right. I kind of know my parents are more powerful.

There's a lot of fear. So I'm going to do this thing short term and tell them. Out of their house and they learn things over us. And if you don't do this, then you don't get to do this. They're all power equations.

Yeah. And so I do think that lives deep in our bones. Way before we became apparent, it was just, there's probably the unwritten models of parenting had a lot to do.

I think with power and fear. Yeah, right. And outside of the home, too.

“I think about school wherever you go, school, camp.”

You know, it was always that sort of deal.

And so here's this moment. Let's just say it is. My toddler start there. I won't put on their shoes. And even if it's my seven-year-old,

because I think some people say, but my seven-year-old should know better, right? I mean, we all should know better with things. But let's say there's a situation. And I think the parents start thinking,

"I can't put up with this." Also, they can't think this is okay. They can't feel like they run this house. I have to punish them. I need a question for you.

I don't know the right answer is question either. What is punishment? Like, maybe what's an example of it? And what do we, even if it doesn't make sense? What do we think it does in terms of teaching and effectiveness?

You know, I want you to know that I didn't like what you did. Uh-huh. I don't want it to happen again. And because you did that, I need to do something to you take something from you.

Something needs to happen to you so that you know, not to do that again, and then I don't like it.

Step one.

I need you to know that I don't approve of this behavior.

Step one. Okay, so punishment is a way of telling your kid that. Okay. What we're going to think if there's alternatives for each of these needs, but I get as a parent if my kid is doing something

that I don't think is okay. I actually understand that I kind of want them to know that I don't think it's okay. Totally reasonable. Whether that has to come out in punishment, we can think about, but punishment says that, not okay.

Right. Number two, punishment kind of says, "I don't want you to do this again." Maybe number three brings it together.

“That may be the best way to tell you this is true.”

The best way of telling you, I don't approve. And trying to have something not happen again is to make you feel bad. Or to make you feel small. Or to deliver some type of emotional

is a cool scene. That is that.

That's that was my third of something has to happen to you.

Something has to happen to you. Yes. Do you think there is that equal opposite thing where I'm upset? Yes. So you have to be, you need to feel some of this in some way.

I can't be the one watching you behave in this way. And my body feels uncomfortable. Right. Is there an indignance there? I mean, your body has to feel it.

I don't know how I grew up. My mom's like, "Oh, you embarrassed me." This would tell you. Maybe who into a store? Yeah.

"You embarrassed me and I'm going to embarrass you." And that sort of whatever I feel, you feel. Mm. And then. And then.

Yes. Yes, she did. But, or I knew, you know, it's like, I was like, I knew that if I made her uncomfortable, if I embarrassed her, she was going to ensure that I was also embarrassed.

Interesting. Yeah. So this is all beyond the punishment. Mm-hmm. Part, even though it's part of the punishment is,

if I feel bad as a parent from a situation, you need to feel that way. Yes. And I just want to say something because my mind's going in this direction.

Sound off anyone listening is, I don't know why I picture someone thinking maybe I'm thinking. Oh, the days when children listen to parents and stores. (laughs) Like a little nostalgia, like a little nostalgia.

Like, oh, the days where I couldn't theory say to my kid,

if you do this, here's what's going to happen.

And they were like a little bit nervous enough to modify their behavior. Because I do think there's a little bit of whistfulness for the impact, maybe not the tactics, but the impact. For sure, right? Yeah. It worked sometimes. Yeah.

And I know you and I have talked about other consequences

“long-term short-term when I think about being a black parent.”

And I think about if there's no punishment. Yes. If there's no clear consequence, how will my kid know that there are consequences in the world? Okay, you are five today, and I call your name

and you don't turn around or you roll your eyes or you hiss and you're out in the real world, and you get pulled over and you do any one of those things. There is a great chance that you will be punished harshly, or you may not be alive.

And the layer, I think they're not saying, but it's implied. And is that as different for you than a white child? Completely. Yes, that is completely real. And so when I, you know, if when I'm with my kids,

that is something that people say is that that is something white kids can do. That is something white kids can do of black kids, can't do that. Like, almost like we don't have the time, you know what I mean? It's like, I have to speed this up because the world is not safe. And you Becky, you can take seven years practicing,

but I don't feel like I have that much time. And so I have to show my kid at least given them an idea of what the consequences might feel like, so that maybe they won't want to do any of those things out in the world. That can harm them.

And what goes on in your body is you say all those words. I'm sure you're thinking about your kids. You know, it's awful because I can think about why my parents parented the way that they did and I can know that it was in some ways when we talk about, you know, my number one job is to keep my child safe.

“I think they really believed that that's what they were doing.”

And I feel like there were a lot of black parents that believe that they are keeping their kids safe that way. I like if my kid is unfairly singled out on the street.

Yes.

They better know how to keep their body safe and calm and not do anything that could be interpreted.

Correct. Or they're in a group, you know, you're in a group of white kids. Uh-huh. You, you can't do what those kids can do. You know, if you're in a group of white kids and you do the exact same thing, there is a chance that you will be punished in a way that those other kids won't.

“And one of the things I think you and I, I think agree on what if the best chance of my”

kid learning how to stay calm in the face of authority, isn't it? What if that only needs them to walk away their anger and rage and that makes it more likely? It comes out when their teens and they aren't scared of adults anymore because they're not small. Like do you feel like that beyond feeling better to you? Are you like, no, no part of it is I actually think that is no, I a thousand percent.

I see it now. He's at a point where he can start to tell you when something's going to bother him. It's like he can almost pin down what's going to what sends him on a tear and so he may not even do it. And so I am like, oh my goodness, he is starting to learn the ways to stay safe and even one of his teachers said no one can tell you how they're feeling

“better than he can. Wow. And to me, I think that is what we'll keep him safe. But I think the”

heart is part and I talked to you about this all the time is that if if I want my child who will become an adult to understand sort of like authority and to just stay calm in the moment, they have to be able to practice this with me. Yeah. And I think that's the hardest part of like they have to be able to yell and like you said it is a practice that they're not going to get the

first time. Yeah. So sometimes you know it's like this is a long game. This is a long game and I think

that okay, I'm going to stay calm. They're going to have a moment and I'm going to have to do that. Many times until they essentially co-regulate, but I think that's the part that's the hardest is that it's hard to believe that this could what it would work. It really sounds it does sound like you're coaching. You're trying to coach him. You're trying to coach him. Yes. What do you need? What will eventually help you change your behavior? What's really going on? And if I want to

be your coach in that kind of have to be on your team. Right. And we have to have a strong enough relationship that you're willing to be influenced by me even as you get older. Right. Right. Yeah.

“I mean, I think about that a lot. Now, I have a 14 year old and I think it's still going to have”

influence on your kid as they get older almost especially. You're going to have it in smaller doses

because the stakes get higher. Right. Right. And connection is always the portal. The influence

exchange connected to someone. If you're not connected to someone near 14, when you're just 14, they have this realization. I'm bigger than you. I really don't care about your time out. So like those things doesn't make sense. When I'm out and I don't come home, if all you have his words and threats and then I just get to go to school again tomorrow like there's right nothing. They kind of can call us. Yeah. But connection, I think that is the that is the place that I think

it's tough because I feel like I was taught them if my kid does something bad. I go away from them. If my kid does something bad, we disconnect. I pull away my love as a punishment. Yes. Yes. That is a punishment. That is a punishment. You know, I'm not talking or I'm, you know, you can tell that I'm no longer dealing with you. And I think that is something that to go toward our kids when they do something we don't like. Yes. That we can still stay connected

to the good kid underneath. This kind of brings it all together. I can tell my kid that behavior wasn't okay. Right. I can still see the good kid underneath. I'm not so much connecting to the bad behavior as much as I'm staying connected to my good kid who's struggling. Right. And then I can act like a coach to have this behavior change. I have to figure out what's really going on. And then yeah, kind of help them change through skills, not just probably power and fear. Right.

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option, your kids will actually be excited about, you can use my code, Dr. Becky, for 50% off your first order at HayaHealth.com. That's HI-Y-A-H-E-A-L-T-H.com. Is there another way? Maybe that you've even played around your kids? Of letting your kids know that you do not approve of their behavior, that doesn't involve punishment. Yes. So, just because I actually think for a lot of people that are there options,

there are, I told you, when I met you, I never wanted to like, I certainly never wanted to hit my

kids, and I just never felt like punishing work because I'd been punished, and I'm just like, I don't know that this works, but I feel like I can let my kids know, this is not okay. And I don't necessarily need to make them feel like I feel, even if I am embarrassed, you know, it's like I have had my kid do things that were embarrassing or were hard, and I did not feel the need to like send him to his room to make him feel worse or take something from him.

Yeah. So, I mean, what have I done? What have I done? You know, I might say I'm trying to think of a

“specific exam. But you just said it, and actually, I think there's a version that's simple that”

you said, but you didn't even realize, you can tell your kid. That's not okay. Yeah. That's not okay with me. Right. I mean, I could go to our permission to any parents say, I do not approve of this behavior, like you can make it. Right. Crystal clear with your language. But you know, but let's just be honest, sometimes that does not feel like enough. Well, I thought you're going to say something else. It doesn't feel as good. No, there's something. It does.

Can we just let ourselves say, there is something so cathartic. Yes. About no dessert or a week,

and I get to, and I think this is what it is. I get to vomit all of my frustration. Yes. Onto my child. Yes. It's vomiting. Right. Like, this is what, either this is what happened to me, or this is what happened to me. Yes. Like, if I said to my mom, if I gave an order of what I wanted, and then she brought it back, and I said, oh, I don't want that anymore. What? And my kids do that.

“Oh, but I didn't say, I don't want that. Mom, you know, I don't want that. Why would you order that?”

You said that. This is what happens when you have children. Like, it is so crazy, the gas lighting that happens. I just want to validate. Okay, please. I would like pasta and chicken, and you're like, sure, reasonable. And you literally go to your child. Here is pasta and chicken. And they go, I don't like pasta and chicken. And there are times when I've heard myself say things, like, it's like, I need my kid to know that, like, I'm not crazy. There's that.

Like, I need to be harsh to prove to my five-year-old that he did say pasta and chicken, because if he gets so upset, you set it. And if you don't tell me, you set it right now. Yes. I am going to film the blank with something that I have at most a 15% chance of all in their life. Let's be clear. There are so many of us, I think, especially women who were taught to look elsewhere, to learn our internal reality. Yes. Is this a big deal? Right. And so, if you're thinking,

oh, my God, that's so pathetic. That's kind of right. I, on some level, do have this wish.

“My kid will say, you're right, Mom. I did say that. Mm-hmm. That's why I can have more compassion”

rather than judgment for myself, because probably even before I became a mom, I wasn't encouraged to kind of always look outside for validation. And so sure, that pattern comes up now, and I can start to shift it now. But I hate the idea of apparently blaming themselves for that. Like, that's probably historical. Right. Right. Right. This part is always confusing. Like, I guess the theory is if they get so upset after a bad behavior, the next time they're in that situation,

they're going to think about, wait, the last time I did this, I got punished. Like, that's

where always a little bit breaks down for me. Like, I just second the last time I hit my sister.

I didn't get dessert. So I am going to pause right now and not hit my sister. Like, I still, I feel like we're focusing punishment is on the after behavior. Yes. And it's hard for me to

“really make sense of, and then I think my kid before the behavior is going to access the thing”

that happened last time after the behavior. Like, but I think that's, we kind of think it works like that. That's exactly how we think it works. I mean, as you were explaining that, and I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah, I guess, I guess that doesn't make sense. Right. Right. Yeah. I think it works like that. That well for adults. Right. Right. It's sophisticated to think my young kid is going to be able to write about all of those pieces together. Right. Hold on. The last time I did this,

let me, I'm going to take a deep breath. Henceforth. Yeah. Henceforth, I shall not do. Right. Okay. So let's just paint an alternative. And I think what you've said is really pointed, I haven't thought about it. It's the alternative we're going to paint isn't no big deal. Who cares about soccer. Let's go for ice cream. But any alternative to punishment, I feel like that. Right. But let's, okay.

So you go first. Oh, sorry. I'm up for soccer. Yeah. You got to the first day of practice.

And I know you're saying, I'm not, I'm not. Yeah. You know what I mean? What am I doing? Because I've been in this situation. It's like I sign up for dance and we get to dance and she's not going inside and we're not leaving. That's kind of, I already committed to the time. So that is what I'm telling myself is that I'm going to be here for the 45 minutes. I don't want to be the person. That's like, oh, you don't feel like it today. We'll just leave. And so I'm like, all right, why don't we

stand? Why don't we like look through the window? Okay. See how you feel. And then I will tell you and then I'm going to go. I'm going to go and the teacher is going to come get you. And I'm okay with her kind of crying through the class. By the way, you know your kid. Yeah. That's the thing.

Yeah. You know your kid and you kind of know and I always love this phrase. Like you, you know

her arc. Yes. So just say a little like, why might this be? I always call it why is this maybe just part of her arc? This because because as soon as I as soon as I walk away hurt all of the times this is happened, I get a photo of her. Just more joyous than she was before we left. And they're like,

That's exactly right. And I'll just paint a different picture in my house because I think let's talk about getting out of the house. Right. You can feel like such a disaster. And my kid's being so hard and they're not getting ready. And again, first thought punishment because I need to let them know it's not okay. Right. I want some validation that they're making warnings hard. And I don't want them to do this. Okay. If we put, well, there's other ways to do the first couple

“things and not maybe, I think we just have curiosity. Maybe punishment isn't the best way.”

And maybe there is a lot between punishment and weekend pathetic. So here's, again, a different way of intervening. First of all, I really do say to myself when we're in a hard morning stage, like to myself, just mornings have been rough. And my kids have been dragging their feet. I just have as all true. Like, I know that. That matters. That like takes the heat down, a tiny percentage because I'm not looking for them to give me that. Okay.

Number two, I think a lot about whether we approach our kids, our partners, am I approaching you like you're on one side of the table? And I'm looking at you like you are the problem. Yeah. And there wouldn't be a problem. You just came to my side of the table. The ultimate partner fight. If you were like me, we wouldn't have an issue. Versus, same with the kid. We're actually on the same side of the table. And together we're looking at all problem. And I think this is really

“powerful as an alternative to punishment because the problem isn't necessarily my kid.”

The problem is that mornings have been a disaster. And if I assume we're actually on the same

team against that, I would actually have not a punishment approach, not a permissive approach. I've coached like a coaching approach. It's like if you have a kid who keeps missing layups, you could say, I'm going to punish you if you miss another one. But I actually don't know if there's any parent listening who's like, yes, yes, to that coach, punish my child. Or if they want the coach who said something's going on with layups, I'm on your team. Let's figure it out

together. What comes up for you? I just, as long as I've been doing this, it is still sometimes a challenge to remember we are on the same team. I don't know that there was a parent out there that doesn't, that hasn't like mornings don't wear them down. Right? And if I could just say, you know, the morning is the issue and it's not the fact that my kid

never knows where their shoes are. And look, and I do think this is a practice. Mine sets are

“practices and are old mindsets come in. And the truth is, same team mindset is the opposite”

of punishment mindset. I don't think the opposite of punishing is permissiveness, maybe the opposite of punishing is being on the same team. And being on the same team doesn't mean condoning behavior. Right? If I'm coaching a basketball team and my player has a lot of turnovers. And I say, hey, I'm on your team. Let's figure it out together. It's engaging. I just don't think anyone thinks, oh, oh, so you're telling Jason Tatum that it's okay. He has turnovers.

That that's like a psychotic interpretation. No one would even think that. If I'm a coach Missoula of the Boston Celtics, right? They would think that's a good coach. Of course, you're on the same team. Everyone wants the same things. We forget I do have a good kid. It doesn't seem like it, but I do. So I just want to finish this morning. Because if I'm in a good spot, I'll talk to my kid at night, not in the morning when it's a disaster.

Hey, mornings have been really tough. And I actually think, I just want to let you know, first of all, it's nobody's fault. We're on the same team. I feel like you probably want them to go smoother, too. Like, nobody wants this yelling screaming thing. And so I've a couple of days what I could do. I wonder if you have a couple of ideas that would make mornings easier for you. And we could, I don't know, I just want to talk about it for a minute. We can figure it out together.

Because one of the things I learned every time I talked to my kids that way, and for someone thinking, but my kids two or three, I started talking to my kids that way when they were one and two. They're not going to say anything profound. But this is all a practice for how you're relating. And even a young kid who can't articulate something sophisticated knows when they're being approached

as opposite team or same team. Yeah, just feel it. And I'm almost always get something like,

you know, maybe I can put out my shoes the night before. And I give you the great idea. Or if they don't, I could say something like, is it hard to leave the morning? Just hard to like, get out of the house and get ready for the day ahead and usually, by the way, if anyone said that to me, I should be like, yes, you know, right. And going back to that last thing, but I want my kid to be less likely to do it again. When I bring my kid on the same team and they're involved in coming up with

solution, I really mean this. I have found that to be consistently the most helpful thing in getting them to change behavior,

I mean, it's completely different. I know, as you're saying this, my brain is just like,

yeah, go go go go go. Because it almost feels like what you're saying is as a parent, there are things that I can do to either slow myself down or prevent having to lean on just, that's it. This is over. And what you're saying is, okay, if I prepare like a little bit, like you said, if I just, I'm going to just prepare a little bit. If I know that this is an issue, or, you know, if I don't want something broken, I may start the night before or before I get it,

hey, we're going to be getting a new, my kids love to break TVs. I'm sorry. Yeah, they're just

“right. You're going to be getting a new something, right? But also what I really love, and I think”

this one is, is tougher parents because because of sometimes the age of like, involving them, yes, I've said what to you think we might do, yeah, when we get the new television, that, you know, maybe we won't throw toys in the living room, you know, it may be what, right? You know, you get them involved because I will just tell you that as well. This is definitely a punishable offense. My daughter threw a toy at the television and it's done. And that's something that I

probably would have been punished for. Yeah. And, but, but I, you know, I definitely didn't do the

pre-part, but now that I know when I got the second television, you know, I'm like, all right,

let's get you involved. And I did not, there was no punishment. I don't, I didn't yell and it's just like, okay, let's not throw toys across the living room. And, and this is a hard part. My kids are young, especially. We'll see our kid near the TV, throwing something. We know they shouldn't throw. And I'm so guilty of this. Stop throwing that. Please don't throw that. Even though the rule is no having that, no living room. Right. Versus, hey, I'm coming over to you. Well, on the same team,

you know, we don't do that. If you can't give it to me by the time I get there, I will carry it. I will carry you in it. Whatever it is, right to another room, like, kind of stepping in sooner. What is kind of the amended, let's say, that the, like, is this true? If I don't punish

“I'm permissive. If I don't punish I'm weak. What's the kind of, yeah, where are we landing here?”

Where are we landing here? Yeah, where are we landing this plane? If I don't punish, I am building skills. If I don't punish, I am, I don't know. I'm staying connected. Yeah, letting my child know that I am on their team. And that I'm willing to, however long it takes, like you said, if it was swimming, if it was anything else, however long it takes for us to learn this together, because I feel like there's all these little things that we

are punishing for. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, that I'm willing to stay with you in this until this changes. And eventually, it does. I really like that. I think, I don't think we're on landing. If I don't punish, or like, the opposite of punishment isn't being weakened permissive. Maybe that the true opposite of punishment is same-team leadership. Yes. Right, because I think

“that's what I'm left with too. So much of punishing is just reacting to, right. And I think the”

escalators, they're not reacting to. They're grounded enough to make decisions. They, they, they lead. Right. Don't just react. And so I think same-team leadership is kind of what the best coaches do. I think it's what the best CEOs do. And they're in hard moments. And that feels

actually powerful to me. Yes. And I think that's important, because I do think parents

have an appropriate amount of power, not control, but just there's a, there's an authority. For sure. And so there's, I think the opposite of punishment is embodying that authority and leading and coaching being on the same team. So is it true? If you don't punish your permissive, I'm in go first to my league to see where she landed. And then I'll share my thoughts. Is it true? No, it's not true. It's not true that if you don't punish your permissive. If you don't punish,

you're taking the time to build skills for change, for the change that you actually want to see. Yeah, you're not weak. You're not letting them walk over you. I think you're, you're fine if you don't punish. I really don't think I have that much to add. I think that's exactly right. I don't think it's true either. And the thing I want to do, if this resonates, I want to let you know I'm going to do this for you, is to me sometimes the best way of bringing something to life is actually

show notes to get the link is a minute take a certain situation that drives us crazy at different

age groups. So no matter how old your kid is, you'll have an example that makes sense. I'm going to go through kind of punishment. What feels natural for most of us permissiveness. And then what I kind of

“call good inside sturdy leadership. Because I think that's what this middle ground is that we're”

talking about. So you can kind of see it really clearly in very real life examples. All right,

let's end the way we always do. Place your feet on the ground. Place a hand on your heart.

And let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. Be careful.

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