What’s Really Going On: Why Screens Never Satisfy Kids

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for 30% off the banana bright plus eye cream at ula Henrikson.com. At night we would give her screen time. And sometimes she would just turn into like different child. I interpreted that behavior as like meaning she loved it so much. I found something really surprising. Do you believe me? Is it pleasure? It's the do it again button and her brain. All right, here's the story for this episode. A week or two ago I posted

something on Instagram. Something that I implemented with my kid based on reading this book.

Dopamine kids by Michaeline DuCleph. And here's what happened. I just shared about how on

my subway ride with my son to basketball practice every weekend. We just got into this habit of doing New York Times games together on my phone. Now to be clear, I don't feel so guilty about that. It's actually a fun thing to do together. There's a lot worse things. But I had this thought after reading this book. I didn't choose this habit. Wasn't a choice I made. And so before the subway ride that day, I just said to my son, hey, I just want to let you know when we subway

to basketball on Saturdays. We're not going to be doing New York Times games anymore. We're not going to be taking out my phone at all. So you could bring a workbook, you could get a book, totally up to you. And I kind of said, I don't like that. I had already convinced myself for you're doing this. So I didn't really need his approval. And probably not unrelated to that.

He just said, okay, which doesn't always happen. And he went to get a book and then he read

the whole subway ride to and from basketball. And it is a long subway ride. It is so amazing to read something or have a framework that empowers you to do something that maybe fear or confusion has held you back from doing before. And so many of you said, we want more about this. Can you have that author on your podcast? And so I reached out to Michaeline and she's here. I'm so excited for you to hear this conversation. We're going to be talking about screens and dopamine. And her

way of explaining it, I'm just going to tell you it's unlike how we've thought about those two things ever before and it is so illuminating. I'm Dr. Becky and this is good inside. I'm so glad you're here. Dopamine is it pleasure. And it's not the molecule of happiness. And this has been a myth and a misconception in neuroscience for 50 years. Dopamine and these products that we have in our lives create desire and wanting and craving. It's the do it again button and our brain. I want to do it

again. I want to do it again. But not so much for our pleasure. And in fact, data show us that over time these things rob our children of pleasure and can make us feel worse afterwards than what

“we felt before we started. I mean, I think social media is a really good example of that, right?”

Kids go in social media to feel a sense of belonging, to feel connection. But over time, a lot of the apps make kids feel lonely. So you describe screens and devices as magnets in your book. And I can tell you that framework has already actually changed so much in my home. Yeah. Thinking about them as magnets, what do you mean? Why is this word even helpful, you think? Yeah. So I think it's helpful. And it's helpful for my little girl, too. It's 10 now because magnets pull us to things, right? They

have this force on us. And I think that as parents, we need to recognize that screens, all to process a lot of foods out there too, form these magnets. And I call them dopamine magnets because that's the part of our brain or the neurotransmitter in our brain that creates this poll

impuls us to them. So I'm a chemist. I was trained as a chemist. And so I'm always thinking about

things kind of from molecules perspectives. And I think of screens as like if they're in the room, if they're in the car, if they're in our environment, if the kid knows they're there, they're going to be the molecule that you go to, that you get pulled to like a magnet. And we would never blame our kid for being drawn to a magnet. We'd be like, that just happened. So how do you think about that? Let me think this iPad is in the room.

“It's not iPad time. Why you on the iPad? Let's jump in there. So I think we have to be honest”

about the iPad and what's on the iPad. We are parenting in a world that no generation has

they're surrounded by things products that are intentionally designed to pull them to them, like magnets and hold them there for over-use apps, games, foods. And the thing is is like,

“it's not our fault that we can't handle them. Like we're all struggling to handle them, right?”

And it's none of our fault. This is not what's missing isn't a lack of effort or trying to fix a problem. For me, and what I realize what's missing is guidance that actually works for these

particular products that we have parents have never dealt before. I remember when time I interviewed

this Stanford behavioral psychologist. Okay. So hugely successful 40-year-old man with accolades, executive function, spades. And he sat there and he listed off like the five different apps he needed to block himself. So he wouldn't look at the New York Times all day. And when he was sitting there telling me that, I was like, how am I going to give my daughter this phone and then go tell her to go do our homework. If this man can't regulate himself. And that was when I really started

to dig in and figure out, okay, we need better tools here. I just love anything where it's not about who's fault does it? Like is it my parents fault is the kid's fault? Like I sometimes fault, I just like let's put it on the shelf. It's not that useful for free. Not to motivate change, right? And so we are parenting in a world that is unlike anything else. And your language around it, we are parenting in a world with magnets that are designed to draw our kids and ourselves

to them for more time than is good for anyone. In a way that changes your relationship with everything else in the environment, probably your frustration tolerance too. And there's no regulation.

Like this is a lot for parents. And so just starting with that is different. That has never been

done before. And that's really hard. And it's a little unfair. It's like unfair. Oh, right, this book I talked to engineers who admit their sole job is to get your child to watch

“YouTube for as long as possible. I asked one of them. So you want children to watch it 24 hours a day?”

Yeah, that's the goal. So they have these very clear goals for our kids. And I think that as parents, we need to stop and say, okay, well, what do we want? And you can like slowly move to where you want to get it. I love that. Okay, we have this moment of screens are in the room. These are magnets. I just want to go to another moment, the crash. Yeah. What's wrong with my kid? I said they could have the thing for this much time. And then after, right, there's the crash.

There's all this. Yeah, what's going on? Yeah. So my little girl, Rosie, she's an, I just say she's an amazing kid. But at night, we would give her screen time. Like, an hour, maybe two hours as, you know, has been recommended. No, don't go over. And each night would just be a horrible experience. I'm sorry, but it was just a horrible experience to get her off. I started talking about it as like the dismount, like in gymnastics, like somehow

“had to like do a back flip. And, you know, as I was looking at strategies to get the kid off this”

screen. And like, and sometimes she would just turn into like this, like a toddler. Like it was like, it was a different child. It was like the child when she was three or four years old. And I, I interpreted that behavior as like, meaning she loved it so much. Right. Oh, she just loved it so much. She couldn't separate from it. And, and, and so I didn't want to take it away from her, because who wants to be a parent that deprives kids of what they love, right? And then as I started

studying dopamine and, you know, what motivates kids and what brings kids pleasure, I realized, "Oh, what rosy is feeling after I pull her off the screen? Isn't pure pleasure at all?" But it's this intense motivation and desire to keep going. The wanting part of our brain is somewhat separate from the pleasure we feel when we get what we want. And I have to say, "This isn't wanting like, oh, I want, I kind of want to go to my friend's house or I kind of want

world peace." Like, this is of like a visceral need, right? Like, this is I want it now because it's going to help me survive feeling, right? This is the, like, of really intense part of our brain. Like, when your time is told me, like, what does dopamine do? It tells the rest of the brain what's going to happen. This is a powerful part of our brain. So the wanting for something that we need to survive is a little bit disconnected from the pleasure we feel when we get it. They often work

together. We want what makes us feel good. But not always. If you think about it, there's a lot of

examples where we want things that don't make us feel good. So yes, drugs, nicotine, alcohol, methamphetamine, these very hard drugs split these two systems apart. So that over time, you want something that's actually hurting you, right? What I'm trying to teach my little girl and what I taught myself and I'm learning myself and it really has helped me is to really figure out when I'm wanting something that doesn't make me feel good anymore and realize that and be able to

And so why do our brains do that? Why do we want things that don't end up making us feel good? You know, so the dopamine system in this wanting system is super ancient. It's in bumblebees, it's in the chickens in my backyard. It's very primitive and it's clearly doing something right to have stuck around so long. And I think over our evolutionary time, like when we were hunter-gatherers, what we wanted, it took some work and in the cycle ran in the right way and

and what we wanted ended up being very pleasurable for us. So I think a part of this to think about too is it's not just pleasure. When you get something that you really need to survive and you've worked for it, it also is satisfaction, right? You feel pleasure is the, ah, I have what I need,

“I'm done. You don't want anymore. It's kind of the opposite. And that's how this part of our brain”

evolved to work. I'm hungry, I want food, I go, I find it, I work for it, I get it, ah, I feel good, I feel satisfaction. This is part, this part of the brain is called the hedonic hotspots, which I just love. It's like, so this is the pleasure, right? It is these activities on screens and some of the

foods we have, they're not, our brain has never seen anything like that. They are intentionally

designed to tap into the wanting, increase the wanting and it kind of causes things to short circuit. And so I think our brain wasn't supposed to act this way and I think it's being exploited, this wanting system to keep us our attention and to make money, right? I mean, the food industry still emits this. They emit that they're creating foods that we can't stop eating, right, or that make us young when we're not hungry, right? And so they are kind of splitting apart

“our brain in a way that it's not, it's not supposed to. And understanding this, I think,”

like you said, it becomes, it makes parenting easier, right? Because it's like,

wait a second, limiting this, limiting access. I'm not saying take it all away. That's a fantasy,

right? But limiting it and making room for other things in kids' lives, other foods, other activities actually isn't depriving them of pleasure. It's reclaiming pleasure. It's bringing more pleasure, more excitement, more fun back into our lives. You know, this book is really about creating a culture where you're not just taking things away from kids, but you're helping them discover better things, more joyful things. Definitely. Okay, follow a question that I

just started thinking about. Does the dopamine, does the wanting to pleasure ratio, not being kind of off in a way? True question, does that have anything to do with in this world? Now, supposed to pleasure at least satisfaction or at least comfort is available with so little effort,

like in ways that was never true in the past. Like, is that at all responsible? Like, one of

“the things I think about a lot is the difference between the circuit, maybe don't means a wrong word”

of, say, a kid with an iPad. I get to sit here. Let's be honest. Do very little, kind of, spilling, bling, bling, and my brain's like, "Wei, I win." Versus doing a puzzle, or reading, or having to go talk to a stranger and make friends, like the effort, the amount of time, like, it's so different. And I just think about how different those circuits are. Yes, I think that the speed and the time in the work effort is a big part of it. And I think one of the myths we have

about kids is that they don't want to do work and that work isn't pleasurable to them. They want to work. They don't want to work too much and they don't want to do work that's boring, you know, that, but they want to work. Like, I'll tell you a story about my little girl. She loves food. She loves cookies and croissants. And she's very food driven. And so we'd be in the grocery store every time. It's the same thing. Mama, box of cookies, box of cookies, right? And she eats those cookies. Yes,

it's going to light up her brain with some pleasure, right? But I said to her, knowing that dopamine is wanting in motivation to work, I said to her, "Okay, Rosie, you can have the cookies, but you're going to go home and you're going to get to bake the cookies all by yourself. You're going to get to use the oven and the mixer." And I was going to let you do it all by yourself, right? This is like, she went home, she did it. And you know what? She enjoyed this process of making the cookies,

using the oven way more than just sitting there eating the cookies, right? Because you're right, it's running her motivation system and her dopamine system in the way it's supposed to work, want desire, work, then pleasure as you work. But then also, Dr. Becky, it's giving her

She learns to bake. And the amazing thing that happened was that she didn't need all the cookies. She, like, ate one and then was like, these are two precious. We cannot. We have to keep these, right? And so I'm taking a situation where I could have just said, "No, no cookies. Totally valid. Totally valid choice." But I'm taking it and I'm saying, "No, this isn't opportunity to give her some more pleasure in life. To help her start a new hobby that's going to

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popular flavors with any purchase. Just go to drink element.com/goodinside. I did see about something I've always said to my kids around their screen time just to demystify it. Like screens or screens are designed. It's not your fault. To be a cup with the whole in the bottom.

Yeah. Yes. No matter how much water time you pour in, it never feels like enough and the reason

I'm telling you that is because when I tell you no more TV tonight, like you're not on great full or bad kid but you should know so you're not surprised. No matter how much, whether it's one episode or 15 episodes, it's going to feel like it's not enough and it's just so interesting to hear you use the language and we say that. What fills me up? Right? She was literally more filled up by something with this process. That maybe inherently has a design to get to enoughness where

something by design never deliver enough. That's right. The thing, the cookies are designed. I mean, by companies to make her want more and more. You're a metaphor of like a whole and it is so so wonderful. And I think what I also tell her is like, it makes you feel like you're

Like social media for me always made me feel like if I kept posting, I was going to stop feeling

lonely. And that's the trick I think is like it's always making you feel like you're making progress. Right? And that creates more dopamine. When we feel like making progress, we work harder. Right?

“But I think telling kids this is important. And I think especially as they get older,”

having conversations around like, what is, what is this product trying to do to you? And how is it trying to manipulate you? And just being really honest, you deserve an activity that leaves you feeling better afterwards than you do when you start and not worse. You're brain and you deserve that. Like I never have to like hide the mixer so Rosie doesn't bake. Right? Like I never, right? Like our lives are just right. It's easier. Like, oh, bake as much as you want.

You know? And like, I've never had to like regulate her. And so it's like, okay, when I set a limit on

something, I'm going to use it as an opportunity to find something more, more exciting for her, more interesting, and that's going to make our lives better. And her happier in the long run. I mean, yeah, even pretty quickly. Like it, little kids change so fast. You know, right? Like yeah. So yeah, let's go there to the shifts and what I love about what you're saying is there's like this isn't some huge project. Like I know when I talked to parents, I was like, oh,

please, I can't. I can't live. It's hard. And I get it. Life is hard. And everyone's family is different. And I think what you're presenting also is something that's a shift. It's not a transformation all of a sudden. And it's very possible. So you're five steps. How you think about it? Let's talk about them. Let's walk through it. So the first thing I really think is important in its sounds, I don't know, at first, but it is, it changed me is to like I say, take the wheel. And I think it's

similar to why I was reading about your stuff, right? You're like, be the pilot, right? Yeah. Yes. And I'm like, even before the plane gets off, sit down and take the wheel and like figure out where you're flying this plane to. You know, like, where are you going? Because like I said, like, these products know exactly where they want our kids to go, right? And so they have like a North Star mission. And so it's like, they just think of one thing. If you didn't have screens,

you didn't have fish crackers in your life. Like, what do you want for your kids? What do you want them to eat? How would you want them to spend their time? What is the most valuable and matters most to your family? And just write down a couple ideas, right? So this is because this is what's going to hold you steady. When, yes, the world gets, when it gets turbulence out there, you know? And I can see the way you're talking about those things. Like for me, family board games,

I just, I love board games for us. Like, I love games. I grew up playing a lot of games. And so that matters. And family dinner, you know, I have failure. I'm not as good of a cook as you. But we put one thing on the table, right? And it's interesting. Those are two things I talk about to my friends as the best part of my week all the time. But maybe it goes back to what you're saying. They're just the things that are closest to my values. And what I care about, right?

Yes, absolutely. Like, it's a bigger thing than just like biking, right? It's this idea of like loving adventure and loving outside. And yes, so there's like these big kind of goals we have.

“But I think behaviors like college is really clear on this, right? Like, you have to then pick”

something specific to do. Like I say in the book, like you can't put on your Google calendar, love of nature, love about side, right? Love of board games. Like you have to be like, okay, this is what I want. So I'm going to make a little bit of space in my life and for my family's life for this. And it can be like 15 minutes a week. You could start. And the behavioral psychology tells us that too, start extremely small. And just, but make it

permanent, right? Like, I think that is the key. It's like, okay, we're going to do this 15 minutes each week, but from now on. So one of the things I did last summer was every time I got in the pool,

I was trying to swim more. And I would always try to swim like 50 laps. And so it was like,

we never worked. But the thing I did last summer is like, okay, I mean, every time I get in the pool, I was swim one lap. And then, and then after a week or two, I was like, oh, I'm swim two laps. Right? And I swim more that summer than I ever have because it was like, I start really small. So for us, it was like, okay, we're just going to pick Saturdays. And Saturdays are going to be screen free. And that's it. Just that, that's where, I mean, it sounds like a lot. But you could start smaller.

“You could just say Saturday evenings, right? The key thing here is like, you have to replace it with”

something. The step three, which is so important, is the whole thing around activity offline, is presented in this positive, fun, celebratory way. It is not a punishment. It is not something she has to do. This is something she gets to do. And it's something that's going to bring joy to her life. I think this is a big mistake I was making was I was talking about the activities

oh, you have to do this now. So when I reversed that, it was like magic. It's like she started

“wanting to do it. And she's yeah, more quickly, forgot the screens. So celebrate. That's what”

I call it. Celebrate to a bit you wait. You know, behavioral psychology is so tells us that when we find pleasure in something and we think it's fun and other people enjoy it, we see my mom enjoying it. We will enjoy it and we will want to do it again. And we will press that do it again button and that dopamine button. So that's number three. Celebrate. If you want to make it ahead of it, celebrate it. Language is really powerful in kids' lives. And I think what we

how we talk about it shapes what it means to them. Well, I think just to double down and so many things you're saying, you know, in general, right, we don't respond to behavior. We respond to the story. We tell ourselves about behavior. So we don't respond to the vegetable. We respond to the story.

We tell ourselves. And if someone's always telling a negative story, it gets implanted, right? That's

true. I love that framing. The last step and we kind of skipped over so far, but this curate the cues is where it's going to help you, right? And this, this is the idea that this comes back to the magnet, right? Dopamine works differently than what we talk about. That dopamine hit that we're talking about actually happens beforehand. So when a kid walks into his house after school, all the cues in his house. So the time of day, his living room,

the laptop that's in the drawer are triggering dopamine in his brain and saying, this is time to play robots. This is time to play Minecraft. And that's the dopamine, because that's the desire, the wanting. And so then it's like a magnet. Even if you can't see that laptop, it's pulling him towards it like a magnet. And you're going to struggle to get him to do anything else unless you take away that magnet for a while. Like it's gone. It's vanishes. And this gets

hard when kids have these things for school, right? And we can talk a little bit about that.

“But when the year younger, it's like, you need to create times and places in their lives where”

these, the screen, the ultra-processed food is just not an option so that they can make some space to create that dopamine hit for playing outside, for reading, for helping mom with dinner. You know, like other things, right? And then what happens is the dopamine starts working for you, the kid walks into the house, the living room, the time of day, all these cues are saying, oh,

this is when I go over to my friend's house. I think that part of your book is so powerful.

And here you are, to kill it. It's just, it's so easy for, let's say these iPads. They just somehow sneak back onto the couch, onto the kitchen counter. And I guess another framework for curating your cues is I often think about in general setting my kid up for success. Like, I feel like that's my job, which doesn't mean definitely doesn't mean, I'm smoothing the road for them. Part of actually setting my kid up for success long term is making sure they struggle with certain

things, and that's not taken away. But in a very minute way, I want my kid to come home and do homework, and I'm going to have the iPad right there. Like, that's not setting them up for success. It's also, by the way, setting me up to end up yelling at my kid. I don't want that. That's not good for anyone.

“Right. And so setting up for you as success is apparent, right? Like, it's just making your life”

hard. Yes. No, if I, you know, like, I'm not going to have my kid sitting a candy store all day, and then be like, I saw you have candy. Like, I just shouldn't have brought them to the candy store. Right. Right. So I think I just want to say from personal experience, I have been so diligent about where the iPads are. And by the way, also, because this is the other thing. And then I want to talk about something realistic that happens. So I know where I'm like,

my kid's going to win. My kid's going to tantrum. You bet they are 100% they are because they're normal people. But I have been like a boss. Starting tomorrow, you will not see the iPad for any moment

besides the exact time that we've talked about you doing it. Here's what I've learned. I always tell

my kids, parenting is hard. I'm always learning. I'm going to share with you what I learned. And so if I make a change, it's just because I continued to learn something. That helps me do the best I can with the information I have in that moment. And so here's a change you're going to notice. And then I own the next part. I have a feeling when you get home from school. It might be ah, I anticipated a little not mocking, but just with like, it's fun. And that's okay. I'm ready for

it. We're going to get through it. And I know after a day or two, we're just going to start a new habit. And the fur, I hear my, I feel my heart race. So good. Okay, you know, but it's kind of, oh my god, Michael, I was like, this is scary, but fun. Okay. And my own body. And then it's like,

I've been pretty, I'm, I'm pretty not scared of my kids whining or tantruming. So in the past, it was more like, why are you on that? I'll remove it. But I was like, you know what's better than not being scared of the whining and tantruming when I say no, I pat and moving it away then just

avoiding that whole situation. Yes, it doesn't require work for me because I always am like,

before they, before I go to bed, I'm like, where are they? Are they away? Are they away from where you can see? And they're like, I don't know where I put that. Like, there are things. But when I see, it's such a big difference because when I think about them as magnets, it just, again, it brings me back to a value I have of doing things for my kids, helping them be the kind of adults they want to be, having us have the environment they want. And I was like, this is something where I wasn't

setting them up for success. But you know what, you're also, which I think it's lost in the

conversation is, you're also teaching them, because okay, having the iPad there, tempting them, all the time, is like psychology tells us it doesn't work on the long run. You're just exhausting yourself. But you're teaching them this a different skill. You're teaching them to

“set up their own environment. So they're not tempting themselves. And I think eventually that's what”

kids have to learn, right? Like, Lady Smith, the writer, the famous writer, she uses an app to

block all her websites while she writes. She's setting up her environment so she can succeed, right?

And this is the skill, I mean, I do it due to, because I can't handle it. But this is the skill I want to teach Rosie, right? It's not to keep, I'm not to learn how to resist temptation in front of you. But to learn how to, like, just set up your life so you don't have temptation. This is what is the ticket to a good life. I love the way we ended. Just thinking about something small and remember, it might not be small enough, maybe take your small thing and divide it by four. And then

just trying a new experiment. It's so hopeful and so possible. Now, something I feel like I owe you is sometimes these new moments are a little easier if you have something to kind of open the door.

“I think that's what a script is. I don't think scripts are the answer for parenting,”

but sometimes they allow us kind of open the door to a new room. And then once we're in there, we can kind of handle some of the rest. So I'm going to put up a script for how to tell your kid you're removing iPads from the living room or the public spaces and I'm going to do the other thing we all need. I'm going to share a script for how to handle their whining, their protest, and their tantrum. Because if you have stronghold or deeply feeling kids like I do,

we're going to need those things. You can find it vial link in the show notes. All right, let's end. Place your feet on the ground, place a hand on your heart, and let's remind ourselves, even as we struggle on the outside, we remain good inside. I'll see you soon.

“Before we wrap up, I want to name something important.”

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