How to add more exploration in your life (w/ Alex Hutchinson)

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I'm your host Chris Duffy, and today I want you to join me on end adventure, an exploration into the unknown. Okay, what did you think of when I just said that? Were you imagining like a grand treasure hunt or did you think of a scientific expedition into a remote wilderness?

Those do sound exciting.

“So what if adventure and exploration were more immediately accessible?”

What would it do for our lives and our sense of ourselves if we could break out of the ordinary on a more regular basis?

Today's guest, Alex Hutchinson, thinks that we all want and need the unknown in our lives,

and he's got lots of research and data and ideas about how we can find it. To get us started, here's a clip of Alex reading a passage from his new book, The Explorers Gene. Why we seek big challenges, new flavors, and the blank spots on the map. Is a hike through a national park really exploring?

One view is that true exploring involves venturing into territory where no human has preceded you. If there are footprints, you're not exploring. Alternatively, you could argue that exploring is simply another word for trying something new.

If the TV show you're watching gets boring and you change the channel, you're exploring what else is on the airwaves. Now there are these definitions really captures what the concept means to me. The Latin word "explorari" means to reconnoiter, inspect or investigate. It was formed from X, which means from or out of, and plore to whale or lament.

The original meaning is thought to have been to scout the hunting area for game by means of shouting.

“That's not what quite what I mean either, but there's a kernel of something important”

here. You're seeking information rather than just novelty. Meaningful exploration, I will argue, involves making an active choice to pursue a course that requires effort and carries the risk of failure. But the mythologist Joseph Campbell called a bold beginning of uncertain outcome.

Most importantly, it requires the embrace of uncertainty. Not as a necessary evil to be tolerated, but as the primary attraction. If you're given a choice between being shot or being banished into the jungle, you choose the jungle to maximize your odds of survival. Exploring by contrast is heading into the jungle when your alternative is being an accountant.

The stakes may be greater small, and the undiscovered country may be literal or metaphorical. But by choosing the uncertain option, you're seizing an opportunity to learn about the world. It might even be the murty boundaries of your own capacities and limits that you're seeking to discover. The goal that maps nicely onto endeavors like running a marathon.

The great suburban Everest has long been marathon found for Chris Brasher put it, or hiking in a national park.

“Whether your personal Everest is suburban, urban, rural, or remote, we're going to learn”

more about all of them in just a moment. But first we take an adventurous detour into the world of podcast advertising. This podcast is brought to you by Wise, the app for international people using money around the globe. With Wise, you can send, spend and receive an over 40 currencies with no markups or hidden

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Be smart, get Wise, download the Wise app today, or visit Wise.com, T-Sensees Apply. We are back, we're talking about exploration and adventure with Alex Hutchinson. Hi, I'm Alex Hutchinson, a science journalist and the author of the book The Explorers Gene. Okay, so Alex, for people who have not read your book and aren't familiar, how would you

define exploration? Is an explorer only someone who climbs the Mount Everest, or are there other ways to explore in our everyday life? What are those? Yeah, I'm going with the broadest possible definition of exploration.

When I was writing the book, I often would be chatting with people and say, "I'm writing a book about exploration." And one of the common responses was like, "That's really interesting, but personally, I'm not an explorer." Yes, you are, you don't know it, but we're not just talking about, you know, parasailing

to the North Pole here, it's ordering a new dish in a restaurant. It's exploring new art or new music, venturing into the unknown. It's any way in which we're not just sticking with what we are, you know. It's funny because I've been thinking a lot on my own just in my world about humor and how

So much of it is a parallel that I wouldn't have expected between, like, how do you find

things that make you laugh and how do you have an exploration, which is, you can't just do the same boring routine every single day and expect to find something delightful and new that makes you laugh. And that is at the core of exploring as well. Absolutely, I mean, I think a lot of the great experiences in life, whether it's humor

or whether it's inspiration or whether it's meaning, they come from not just doing what you did yesterday because you already know what yesterday it was like and so there's no surprise, there's no joy, there's no, you know, discovery in that. Okay, here's my other annoying question based exclusively on the title of your book, which is, I hear explorers gene and I think, oh, some people are born with it and some people

“aren't, but I don't think that's what you believe.”

So the explorers gene, what I'm expressing there is that there is wiring in our brain that goes back, let's say, 50,000 years in the way humans process dopamine that makes us particularly even compared to our, you know, closest ape relatives, particularly drawn to the unknown. And it is true that some people have the volume on that signal turned up a little higher than others.

We all know that some people are just, you know, irresistibly drawn to they have to be exploring all the time. But all of us have this same wiring, the DRD4 receptor in the brain that makes humans all of us drawn to the end of. Okay, well, I want to talk more about that wiring that we all have and then people who

are on the extremes.

But first tell me more about that specific part of the brain, the DRD4.

Yeah, I mean, dopamine is, like, it's in the zeitgeist right now.

“Obviously, we hear a lot better than it's, it's the villain that's making us scroll tick”

talk and, and I kind of hoped in this book that I, I'm going to demystify dopamine once and for all, I'm going to give the simple explanation. So when I talk to a bunch of scientists, I was like, oh crap, dopamine is really complicated and it does a lot of different things. In this context, what dopamine does is act as a marker of prediction error.

So when something is different than you expect, ideally when it's better than you expect, you get a big hit of dopamine. If it's worse than you expect, it actually suppresses dopamine. And so it's a marker of surprise. The fact that we're wired to appreciate, to want more dopamine means we're wired to, to want

to go to places where we will be surprised. So this is the fundamental thing, is that it forces us as a species to, uh, keep discovering new things, to find better ways of doing things and the, the, the, the, the big smoking gun

“historically is the way humans spread around the world, unlike any other mammal, not just”

when we were like running out of food or, or when there was a big glacier coming at us or whatever, uh, humans just, uh, after hundreds of thousands of years of hanging around in Africa in the Near East, suddenly they just were like, we have to go everywhere. We have to go to Tahiti, we have to go to Easter Island, we have to go to the South tip of South America. We have to go to the North Pole, not quite, but close.

So that's kind of a, where you can see that there's something about humans that really values exploration. Okay. So there is this element of exploration that is in all of us. And at the same time, as you said, some of us are calibrated a little more highly, or some

of us prefer the couch to the adventure a little bit more. Um, you are uniquely calibrated pretty far on the adventure side to the extent you tell a story and the book about your fourth date with your wife can tell us that the early courtship of your wife are, yeah, well, we were living in different cities. So it was a sort of, compressed or a courtship let's say, but we started talking about going for a hike and, and that, things progressed

rapidly, and basically our fourth date was going to the Rockies for a backpacking trip.

But I don't even ever been backpacking once before. So it's not like I knew a lot about backpacking. But, and we were like, Ash, we go to Bamfish, we go to Jasper, like, you know, these are the classic places you go at Canada. Now my cousin told me about this place that's north of Bamf and Jasper called the Wilmore Wilderness Area. And I was like, well, what's there? And he's like, nothing. There's no

Rangers. There's no trails. There's, it's just a big wilderness area. It's totally unserviceed. I was like, oh, hey, well, let's, let's go there. We had planned to spend nine days. I think it was backpacking just sort of going wherever we wanted to go. But we found some food at one point in a little range, like, an empty Rangers cabin. Like, hey, all right, we can go in extra couple days. And this was pre cell phones. So then our parents were

flipping out by the time we got out. But anyway, it's, it's the greatest trip I've ever taken because we weren't just following a trail to predetermined sites where it's like, all right, the blog says we should see a waterfall to the right now. Yeah, all right, there's the waterfall. So it told me that I, that Lorne and I had found each other appropriately, but it also really underlined what I love about that kind of travel. It's not even though, look, I go

to the, I go to the top sites and I, I want to see the things that everyone else has seen. But I also really value, not knowing what I'm going to see. I mean, I relate to this

area, but in the, if you take me to a new place, I, I want to see the odd weird unusual

“site. That's what I'm delighted by. I'm less interested in seeing the thing that's on the”

postcard. And more like, what's the, what's the, what's the weirdest guy in your neighborhood? And what's the museum that he started in his basement? Like, that's what I'm really interested

in. I would have never like self-identified as an explorer, but I think in your broader definition

of exploring. I, I feel, oh, that is exactly what I love. That's what brings me the most joy. And, and here's a piece that I think is really interesting for people listening, who maybe don't necessarily identify as, like, as they've entrusted as explorers is for me, I have felt like a lot of that exploration, a lot of that new excitement. It's been much harder to access since I've had young kids. And I love having kids. I love being a parent, but it has

made it so that it is harder to be like, let's spontaneously take a trip across the border. Let's, you know, let's get on a plane, let's do something else. But you talk a lot in the book about how, even with young kids, even having, you know, your two daughters, you, you have made it a thing that is in your family and that you're instilling in them as well. I would say to the extent that there's me trying to make my kids explore, but actually,

“I think the bigger era goes the other direction, that having young kids has helped open”

my eyes to the possibilities of exploration, not necessarily, you know, parachuting into the Rockies or whatever, but just in the joy, because for kids, every day is exploration and discovery. You know, wow, look, when you turn a glass of water upside down, this amazing, it goes all over the place. You know, they're discovering new things in so many ways. And it's a joy to, to watch them explore and to see that. And instead of like watching

them explore, why don't we go explore? Why don't we go down to the park? And I don't have to be in the Rockies. We're like, we live near, you know, a block from a river that runs through town. I'm in a city of 4 million like Toronto. It's not the wilderness, but there's parks and we can go and like, I don't know what's in that patch of trees over there. Let's go find out. Let's see if we can climb that tree. You know, if I do even talk in the

book about how you bought a lightweight boat that you can carry down and just get in the

water when you want to. I've used it less than I wish I had because there's always

the tension. Like there's the aspiration and then there's reality. But my oldest daughter was born in 2014. My and my second daughter was born in 2016. I started writing this book in about 2018. And that's not a coincidence. Like a lot of the thoughts that are in there were that road was started by seeing kids explore the world. And to some extent seeing comparing that and contrasting that with my life in my mid 40s and like, when's

the last time I did something that I didn't do yesterday or last week or last year or last decade. And and really and it doesn't have to be that way. It may sound like I'm romanticizing exploration like, oh, it's just this glorious thing. It's all sunshine and rainbows. And personally, I'm an explorer. So therefore, I wake up every morning and I'm

eager to venture into the unknown. And that's not that's not the case. There's always

a tension in all of us. We hate uncertainty. We fear not knowing how things are going to turn out. But it's rewarding. So it's not just a question of like, well, I'm not an explorer because I get nervous about the idea of the unknown. We all do. It's a question of embracing that and trying to remind yourself that, yeah, yeah, but once I'm there, I'm so happy that I did it. I would like to have you read a passage from the book. It's

on page 165 that I think is is directionally in this conversation that we're talking about right now. All right, here we go. But there's one thing that such journeys have in common with the journeys of explorers in the physical world. Sometimes knowing where your headed isn't an advantage. Alexander McKenzie never would have set out for the Pacific coast if he'd realized how far away it actually was. Neither would Columbus have set out for India. The

same can be true in the world of ideas. I never would have conceived my theory, let alone have made a great effort to verify it. If I had been more familiar with major developments in physics that were taking place, the great Hungarian-born physical chemist Michael Penet, Palani once wrote about one of his scientific contributions. That's true in life more generally, whether you're brainstorming ideas at work or like Neil's Vanderpool, rethinking how to train

for your next race. It's easy to find arguments we're sticking with for sticking with the

“familiar. But sometimes you have to venture into the unknown and see for yourself what's out there.”

Well, first of all, I just love that. I think that that idea that not knowing where we're going is a desirable thing is one of my big takeaways from this book. So often what I want is I just wish I knew it was going to work out. I just wish I know what the right choice is. In fact, you make such a powerful argument that the last thing we should want is to know what's going to happen. I was reading a book by a friend of mine named John Goodman recently and he had a line

in it that I loved. He's out on vacation somewhere and, you know, seeing some beautiful sight

Resatter sentence in the English language?" Then it looks just like the photos. And I struggle with this in like planning vacations, right? Or planning anything, in fact. I'm a very meticulous planner because I don't want to die. I stick to that goal. I think that's a good goal, but it's like that the risk is you know exactly what's going to happen at every point. It's not that I've been able to turn off that planning because I really don't want to die, but I'm trying to

balance it with like I don't need to know everything about what's going to happen. I would like to not know about the waterfall around the next corner or about the museum and the guy's basement to, you know, to get it dedicated to toenails or whatever. Like you want to, you want to have

“the act of discovery that's part of it. It's not that you need to always like go this way,”

go in this direction at all times, go in that direction. You have to find the balance between like planning is makes sense. It's a logical thing, but

always knowing what's going to happen. It takes away some of the the sauce of discovery.

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“And we are back. I find that as I've gotten older and I think this is a very common,”

maybe even cliche observation that like times seems to be moving faster from a subjective experience. When I think about my memories, it's like there's this huge chunk of time. And then the next 10 years are like a really small chunk of time in my memories. But what I found is that places where I was in my life where I was doing a big exploration. If I take a big trip, those have such a bigger mental space in terms of defining my life and being memorable.

It's almost like I like planted a flag that stopped the flow of time. So from going so quickly. I imagine that there's an element of exploration in that. I wonder if you could just talk about our subjective experience of life when we are exploring versus when we are in these routine moments. That's a super cool observation. The way I would frame it is think about the difference between being in the driver's seat of a car and being in the passenger seat of a car.

You drive through an unfamiliar city. You get to your destination and then someone asks you, can you get back to where you came from? If you were in the driver's seat of the car, you'll have a pretty good chance as long as you weren't, like let's leave aside turn by turn directions for now. Let's say you have navigated through this town. You had to pay attention to where you were. You know each turn. If you were in the passenger seat of the car, chatting away

with your friend, probably you're like you've looked out the same windshield. You've seen everything the same, but you have no clue how to get back to where. Because you were not paying attention. You were passive rather than active. I think that's a deep distinction. I know the version of

that distinction is like, what's the difference between climbing Everest for the first time versus

being led up Everest by some Sherpa Guides versus watching a National Geographic documentary on Everest?

“And we say, well, to explore, we want to learn about the world. If you want to learn about the”

world, the National Geographic documentary is your best bet. You're going to learn a ton about Everest. But in terms of how much to your point about when you look back, how much mental space is the hour you spent watching the National Geographic going to take up in your memories versus the other extreme, the active extreme where you're making the choices, where you're having to think, you're having to look around and say, is that massive chunk of ice going to fall on my head

and kill me? You're going to remember so many more, it's going to take a, you know, 5,000 times more space in your memory because you're actively making decisions. I think this is like a big challenge in modern life. Like, what is the problem with sitting and scrolling Instagram all day? Well, there's maybe there's many problems. But one of the problems is that you're not making any choices about what's interesting to you. The algorithm is feeding you what it thinks you're going

to be interested in. And it's very good at telling you that, but you're not choosing what to follow. You're not, there's nothing at stake that there's no, you don't have to think carefully about whether to scroll because if you scroll wrong, you're not going to fall off into a

cross or whatever. I moved to Los Angeles seven years ago, something like that. And at first,

way. And then I found, after a while, I was still relying on it and actually hadn't really learned any of the ways in my neighborhood. And that is because even though I was in the drive receipt, I was still the passive recipient of how to go. And so, there's something interesting about, like,

“even when we are in our daily routines, can we switch from passive to active in a small bite?”

Can I turn this off and say, do I actually know how to get to my kids preschooler to the grocery store without the directions telling me? And probably I do. And if I don't, I'll at least remember the wrong turn that I took the next time. Yeah, I think it's actually kind of funny that I spent like five years writing this book and people like, what's the one thing? What's the key change you made in your life? It's like, well, I turn off turn by turn directions like, I look at the map.

I want to know where I'm going. I check. And then I'm like, I get into the car and I turn it off until I get lost because I really, that's a real change that you made in your life. That's, that's

100% like the most concrete thing. There's two reasons for it. Basically, one is the kind of that it's

a marker. It's a reminder that I'm okay getting lost. It's a, so it's a signpost for how I want to be trying to live my life more broadly is that I want to be present. I want to be looking around. And to your point, it's, it's not just, do I know how to get to my kids soccer practice? It's, do I know where I live? Do I know what the neighborhood is? Do I know if someone says,

“you know that old warehouse on, you know, on such and such street? I think they're doing”

something like, what warehouse? If I'm looking around when I drive, it's like, I know my neighborhood. I know what the businesses are there. I know what the people are. I know what it looks like. So I want to be active and present. So there's a, there's a symbolic aspect of, of turning off the, the, the turn by turn directions. I will also say, there was a study published about a year ago that found that taxi drivers and ambulance drivers were about half as likely to die of Alzheimer's

disease than bus drivers. And this is people who who were working in the pre turn by turn directions there. So we're talking a group of people who are all to spend their days driving. But one group of people drive a different route every day and have to look around and figure out where they're going. And the other group just drives the same route over and over again. So they don't have to think about where they're going. If you don't use your brain, then your brain is like, okay, let's, we can

get smaller. So so there's famous studies showing that the hippocampus, which is where we store

spatial memory. And basically, if you're exploring, you're using your hippocampus, that gets bigger

and taxi drivers. London taxi drivers famously have bigger hippocampuses. But conversely, if you don't use your hippocampus, it gets smaller. And the smaller hippocampus is associated with conditions like Alzheimer's disease and dementia and a bunch of other stuff. So it's like, I want to get lost sometimes.

“I don't want to get lost in crucial moments. I don't want to get, you know, there's times”

when I absolutely use turn by turn directions. But when I'm going to my kid's soccer practice for the 57th time this week, like, okay, I'll go and maybe I'll get stuck in traffic for two more minutes or maybe I'll think around turn if I'm going to someplace that I haven't been in six months or whatever. But that's my big change. I've also been thinking about that switch into uncertainty and into being in a more active mode, not just in the physical choices that I make,

but in the social choices I make in other choices. So for example, if I'm, you know, walking to my neighborhood and I see my neighbor, certainly I can just say, hey, how are you doing? Or, you know, crazy weather this week, like something like that that's kind of a classic one. And I'm not really making any choice. And we're just acknowledging each other, but we're not going deeper. But I can also kind of take a serve into the unknown and say, if they're an older person, hey,

what was your, I actually don't never, I've never asked you what your career was or what's

something that you've been interested in lately. Like taking a turn right, get to know them a little bit more. It feels a little dangerous. It feels like, oh, if I be a weird uncomfortable conversation, but it also has this chance of leading me to a whole new place to exploring the relationship in a way. That's such an interesting thing because I would say one of my largest professional challenges in dilemmas as a journalist, like I'm a super introvert and a risk of a risk of a

person. And so as a journalist, when I call people up to interview them, first of all, I spend like four hours in the bathroom psychomyself up to talk to a stranger, which is not a good trait for a journalist. But second of all, I do all this research until I'm pretty sure I know what they're going to say. And then I only ask them the questions that I know that how they're going to answer. And it's like, and when I deviate from that and get something unexpected, it's like, oh, this is going to make the story

so much better. Like, I know intellectually, it's so much more satisfying to be willing to ask the questions that I don't know the answers to, but both in a professional and social context, it's easy to, like, it's so much more, feels so much more safe to ask the questions you only know the answers to and not to take the risk of asking, you know, what if you ask a question that's the wrong question and that insult someone or there brings up something bad or, you know,

exploration is absolutely as rewarding and also as fraught with uncertainty as, you know, going to the

“North Pole. And look, there's a reason that politicians and athletes and public figures have this”

extensive media training to make sure that they never say anything unexpected or interesting.

And it's like, oh, God's sake. Like, it's on the one hand, as a journalist, I'm like, don't you understand that if you spoke like a human being, it would be so much more interesting. But on the other hand, I also understand that if they speak like a human being, they might say something that is going to end up biting them. That it's going to become, you know, it's going to go viral or whatever and it's going to make them look bad. And so the fear of the risk, that the

the small risk that something goes wrong, smothers the all the opportunity to go and unexpected directions and which is so much more interesting and more rewarding for people. Is there a point where exploration and adventure aren't to the best idea? I mean, I can think of a lot of examples physically. But I wonder about mentally and socially as well. Like, is there where is the balance between pushing yourself to do things that are new and different and

stretch you and also knowing when to stop? Where do those balance? Where does that tension come into play? So in the physical world, right, it's easy to think of examples. And it's like, it's surprising that you look through the historical roles of famous explorers and it's like, wow, they did this great thing. And then they're like, they couldn't stop. They wanted to top it. And so, yeah, two expeditions later, they sailed off the edge of the earth and the, and so,

“that's the sort of metaphor. But in reality, yeah, I think it's sort of the idea that you”

never stop and appreciate, you've spent all this time exploring, pushing, trying to discover something

new. And then as soon as you get there, you're like, I need to find the next thing. I need to find the next thing. And so I thought about that a lot in the career context. I had written this book on the science of endurance. And I had the opportunity and it sort of did well enough that I could, I had the opportunity to spend the rest of my life being the science of endurance guy. And so, and yet I was dissatisfied with that idea. And so I decided, I want to keep exploring. And I

want to understand why that was so I wrote, decided to write a book about why I wanted to keep exploring. But at the same time, as I was doing that, I was like, but this is so stupid. Like, I spent 20 years trying to get to this point in my career. And as soon as I got there, I'm like, all right, I guess I did it. Now let's do something else. And so I think it's a sort of, permanent tension for all of us to balance, like, to be wanting to find out what's next,

but to find ways of enjoying, you know, where you just reached the summit that you got to.

But yeah, I don't think it's an unvarnished good to always be thinking about what's next instead of

what's now. Okay. So, thinking about prescriptively how people can bring exploration into their life, across a variety of areas of their life. Yeah. So there's an idea that comes from a German psychologist in the 1800s named Vilhelm Vunt. He has this general curve of, like, how crazy is something versus how productive and how enjoyable is it. And there's a sweet spot in the middle. And so that's a

“complicated way of saying that you need to, obviously, you want to find a balance between”

stuff that's predictable and routine and stuff that's just too crazy and random. And I guess the argument that I, that I'm making the book is that your sense of what's fun and what's interesting is not just a sort of self-indulgent feeling that's telling you what's fun. It's actually a guide to to where you have the greatest potential to learn about the world. Being able to ask yourself not just will this please my boss. That's important to you. We all have to please our bosses. But

what would I do if I didn't have to please my boss? What is it that I find most into? Which of these projects are my most curious to know how it would turn out? So I think to find the sweet spot on the Vunt curve, the only reliable way to do it is to ask yourself what's most interesting to you. And it's hard to do that. It's hard we all have responsibilities that trump that. But to tune into your sense of interest as a, so in other words, I guess maybe if I can say this more concisely

rather than thinking that the outside world you'll be able to mathematically prove which is the best way to explore pay attention to inside what you find most interesting. Something that I've done a few times is a bought a powerball ticket and said like okay if I win 600 million dollars tomorrow when this ticket comes up. What would I do? What would the work like not just obviously I'd go on in a lavish vacation I'd spend the money but like what would I do for work? And I think that it

took that away, if the money wasn't the decision factor, what would I want to do? And often that

“has clarified for me like what career choices I should make? That's a great way of doing it. I'll give”

an example from my own life of tuning in relatively early in my career. I had a choice between two great career paths with two great magazines, runners rolled notes side, both which I loved and have ended up ended up working for, but at that point I had to choose between them. And so I did all the sort of classic pro and con lists and talking to mentors and blah, blah, blah, made a decision called up the magazines and said I'm sorry I can't take your offer and yes I'd love to take your

offer. Went downstairs to have dinner with my family and realized I was crying and I was like that's a little weird. And so I just realized I don't know what the pros and cons are, but obviously I really want this other option. So I went back upstairs like you know an hour later called the magazines back and said I think I made a mistake. Is it okay if I rescind my rejection into one case and and acceptance in the other case and they were both very nice and they they said yes.

But that was a case of like okay throw away the prone con list. It's like this is where I this is where what I feel is going to be most interesting and rewarding is even though I wasn't in touch enough with my feelings to recognize them until I'd already gone down the wrong path. I'd love that story. It also makes me think that like you know I felt there's a lot of pressure in the world today societal pressure and personal pressure to have these optimized. I have made the

right choice. Whether it's like I am buying the microwave that is the number one reviewed microwave and has still five star reviews or in our lives like I am going to look at the algorithmically perfect job and career path. And instead I think trusting that our it's not like our emotions

“would be the only thing. But but that like what we kind of feel and what we actually want is the”

thing too that is is much harder to quantify. And you are like a hard science hard math hard numbers got. I mean you worked for the NSA as a as a physicist I believe. You were working on quantum computing. Yeah. So you're not like the touch of I am the touchy feeling English major right so I of course I'm going to say that but you you are the numbers like quantifiable guy. This was highly out of character for me and outside of my my sort of self image but I'll pat myself on the head here and say

to my credit I recognized that finally the feelings were strong enough that they were breaking through

my hyper analytical approach. Okay another domain where I'd love to hear how you would recommend how should people get more of a spirit of adventure in their personal life. And I've actually love for you to give us maybe two answers that may be similar but different. One is for family so including like kids and then other is just in your kind of like romantic personal life of your connection with another person. Within the context of family life in general so again I'll

bring up this guy Mark Meldorf Anderson who's the theorist of play and I was asking him more or less this question and his answer which I really liked was he just tries to say yes as much as possible. Kids I know I mentioned this this vunt curve this sweet sweet spot of like knowing where the world has the most to teach you and in his view like kids are the best at tuning into this they don't yet they're not yet suppressing bad instinct in in favor of trying to well they're certainly

not trying to impress me as far as I can tell they want to do something like they've gone down the slide already now they want to go up the slide yes you can do that you want to play a game that seems absolutely you know non-sensical to me let's do it let's let you be the guide and let's follow your instincts now I will also say in in my family life we've done a bunch of like back country

“traveling because that's that's what Lauren and I love to do and so we've taken our kids along”

on it and this is not the kids weren't like please daddy I'm two years old I want to go in a canoe trip where we're you know sleeping on a rough stick and and you know eating gruel for breakfast there's a little bit that we're imposing too but just because a kid says no or that they don't want to do it like if if we turn around on every hike where my kids had said I'm tired I don't want

to do this we never would have got more than you know 30 yards from our front door so the kids are

capable of a lot and so with the right approach if you're patient and you know not I'm not advocating like putting them on forced marches but I'm saying have have high expectations for them don't don't don't let we all have the voice that says I don't want to do this and they don't yet know how to suppress it if you take some opportunities to take all of you together out of what might be your comfort zone and and try some things where you don't know what the food is going

to be like you don't know do you're going on a longer walk or something that's super rewarding for them my kids are still young so the jury is still out but I hope it sets them up for for maintaining that attitude to life for the being open to new experiences and new adventures I've heard some

fun while you're doing it and type two fun is it's only fun afterwards when you think about having done it but in the moment it can be kind of excruciate it it's a tough balance when you're imposing type two fun on a on a powerless kid and so we're constantly sort of trying to make sure we're finding the right balance on that and not not not over doing it there's a whole range of experiences that open up if you're willing to go beyond type one fun to not only do think to not only eat ice

cream but to do the things that instantly that at this particular moment might seem challenging but boy it's going to be exciting when you get to the top of the mountain or whatever and they built such a sense of pride and accomplishment like when I think about my own sent type two fun experiences I'm really proud that I did them because I'm like wow that was wild but we got through it and now I'm going more connected to the people I did it with and proud of myself but in the moment

I thought like lie to my wasting my vacation days being uncomfortable I could have been on a beach reading a book there's definitely times when we've been on vacations asking why are we doing this and then we finish it and we're like yeah why did we do that I was really hard that's that's

“that's what a friend of mine calls type three fun where it's not fun when you're doing it”

and you look back on it still wasn't fun but for some reason you do it again anyway it's a I think that that's maybe where you have a problem but that's great what about the relationship how can you bring it back to where you're sent to relationships let me actually give the 30 37 percent rule there's a famous problem in math which is like it was framed in the 1950s as what's called the secretary problem and and apologies for the you know patriarchal and misogyny

language but basically it's like you're a 1950s businessman you're interviewing for a secretary

you know you're going to interview whatever 100 candidates or whatever and some of them seem pretty good how do you decide when you've seen enough and you're going to just choose to hire someone if you set up the problem with certain constraints what you end up with is that if you get someone is your second candidate looks pretty good and you just hire them well you don't know there's 98 other candidates maybe he's one of them's just like twice as good but on the other hand if you

interview all of them and then you're like oh the second candidate was the best one you go back and it's like oh I took another job already so how much do you explore before you just shift

“to exploit and hire somebody and and the math suggests that you should explore roughly 37 percent”

of the you should of the available candidates so you should you should interview at least 37 people and then hire the next person who's better than anyone you've seen before and so there is a sort of tongue-in-cheek school of dating advice that's like of the available candidates

you should at least explore 37 percent of who's available now that is obviously

ludicrous I'm not actually giving that advice but you can translate that advice to if you're trying to find the balance between exploring and exploiting you should generally if you're starting in a new area you should start by explore a period of exploration because if you don't explore first you don't know what your options are and then just as importantly you you eventually have to shift to what's called in the

literature exploitation and that's not the not not in the negative sense of the word but taking advantage of the knowledge that you have because if you just keep exploring then your you know 52 years old still hanging around the college bars looking for dates and that that's not cool so this is not really advice for building a relationship I guess but it's more advice on like yeah I find it the person how do you know when you when you found the one and that answer is

different for everybody reading your book you talk about how you had this big success of your first

book um endure and you you kind of didn't expect it and so the obvious thing then was to be like I'm just going to keep doing the same thing like that was successful don't mess with success and that was pretty unfulfilling as a path for you one of the people I spoke to was this super interesting guy and in Denmark named Mark Maldor Fanderson who's a a theorist of play which is sounds like a pretty awesome job description so why we play in what's happening in our brains

and and I kept sort of pressing him about oh yeah you know if we talked a lot about kids and and I was like so we need to be telling adults to play more to get outside you know to disconnect from work and to go exploring and just like yeah yeah you can you can do that but also like what happens if you know creative and interesting and motivated person is able to play within the context of their work to like to to explore to follow what's interesting to them and he gave me all these

examples of like Mozart who was a brilliant composer but also was a very playful guy such that he was like writing songs in fake Latin that sounded like dirty words if you were like if you were not paying attention so you know setting up his singers to actually go up and sing very rude things without realizing it anyway so like exploring it's not just outside work

“and I think it's more an attitude that that we want to cultivate it in all spheres of our life”

and not just trying to sort of live for the weekend so I mean when people ask why we should

version that it's like because it's fun because it feels good because it's engaging because it's

“rewarding because it feels meaningful so good exploration it's not just about like the gold pot at the”

end of the rainbow it's about like this is awesome I'm so happy to be here this is this is what

I live for Alex such it's an it has been an absolute pleasure I love that you're the first person

in our show to say get lost in a positive loving way so thank you for that thanks so much Chris this

“is an a ton of fun that is it for this week's episode of how to be a better human thank you so”

much to our guest Alex Hutchinson his book is called the explorers gene and it is fantastic I

can't recommend it more highly please get yourself a copy I am your host Chris Duffy and my new book is called humor me you can find out more about my book my live show dates and other projects

“at CrystuffyComedy.com how to be a better human is put together by a team that summits an audio”

Everest every single week how to make me not sound like a total buffoon reporting back from the acoustical north pole we've got Ted's Danielle Aballa Reso band Van Chen Michelle Quint Chloe Shasha Brooks Valentina Bojanini Laney Lot Tensicason Manivong Antonio Leigh and Joseph DeBrine Ryan Lash ventured deep into the unknown with this episode's video footage and the episode was fact checked by Matthias Salas who explores multiple sources for all factual assertions

on the PRX site they are cutting audio in uncharted territory pioneering peaks and eradicating pops Morgan Flanary Norgill Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez thanks to you for listening please share this episode with someone who you would go on an adventure with we will be back next week with even more episodes of how to be a better human for you to explore until then thanks for listening and take care [BLANK_AUDIO]