How to find your purpose (w/ Yara Shahidi)

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I'm your host, Chris Duffy. This month on the podcast, we are re-examining our relationship to work. We started with psychologist Guy Winch's new book Mind Over Grind, and we talked about how to prevent burnout and make space for your life outside of your job.

“And then we had financial journalist Matt Levine explain the economy and money stuff to us.”

But this week, we are tackling to meet the biggest question around work, which is "What do you want to do?" Figuring out what you want to do is, in many ways, figuring out who you want to be. What do you want to contribute to the world? What do you want to learn?

Who do you want to be surrounded by? What do you believe in? I am quite frankly overwhelmed even just saying these questions out loud, and I'm not even trying to answer them. But today's guest, Yara Shahidi, is remarkably clear-eyed about how to tackle these big questions

head-on. One might know Yara from her award-winning work on the TV show's "Blackish" and "Groanish." But Yara is also a producer, the host of the Optimist Project podcast, and a Harvard graduate.

“In other words, Yara has succeeded at the highest levels across many different fields.”

And while I'm getting winded just pondering my future, Yara is sprinting across the finish line, and then designing a whole new race course. But Yara also has practical, inspiring advice for everyone, including me. So today, we are talking with Yara about how to understand yourself, how to understand your goals, and how to figure out what you want to say yes to.

To get us started, here's a clip from Yara's TED Talk. My grandpa and I would reimagine and act out the entire saga of the Odyssey with my polypocket dolls as one does at the age of four. And around the age of five, I asked for every religious book, I mean every religious book,

and I asked forwarding to 13, I read my first short story from the formidable James Baldwin,

and my life was forever changed. Needless to say, I was grateful to be surrounded by a community of people that honored my interests. But as I got older, I began to get confronted by a big question. Are you sure about that? Now this was a question I really could not escape in August of 2018, right as I was

embarking on my next adventure. I was beginning my freshman year at Harvard right as my television show grown-ish began filming season two, and I was out of crossroads, because acting for me has been more than a career. It's given me permission to explore my fantasies. I feel like I gain another level of empathy every time I step into a different character's

shoes, but my education has been equally as pivotal, because my education has fulfilled my endless desire to know, to know places, to know the events that have shaped us, the communities that have built us, the obstacles that have tried to stop us, the mistakes that haunt us, but selfishly to know about myself and my place in the world. So my two lifelong passions were colliding and I was being told by academic advisors and

entertainment folk alike, although no one on my team, that there was no symbiotic relationship between the two worlds. I was searching for an end, but I kept getting presented in either or, and I almost let those five words, are you sure about that? Stop me. Now I've graduated from Harvard, and my television show is ending, and a couple years ago this really would have terrified me, to leave two spaces that I

know so well, but because I've built a life centered on honoring my interests, everything from the Glock and Spiel to Octavia Butler, I walk excitedly towards what's next, because I know some orbits between the two lies my next adventure. We are going to hear all about Yara's adventure and figure out how to plot our own next adventure in just a moment, but first, we've got the adventure of a quick break for podcasts. Don't go anywhere.

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Y's app today, or visit y's.com, Teas and Sees Apply.

Hey, I'm Yara Shihide, I'm an actor, producer, and co-creator of the Optimist Project.

So my first question for you is obviously you identify as an optimist. I also identify as an

“optimist. You said something in your TED talk that I think is really interesting,”

which is that being a pessimist is easy. That, for me, came from just lived experience of being a teenager and being a young adult, and I think there was a moment at 18, where I felt extremely hopeful. I felt like I had just been given this new civic duty. I could vote. I had a voting initiative, and I felt so hopeful because of the energy and synergy of my generation.

And I think realizing that the civic process and what happens in the world is so complicated, that was immediately followed by an era of being like, what am I doing?

And can you change anything? And what really has impact?

And I'd have to say, even going to college exacerbated that feeling because you sit so long, or speaking for myself, I sat so long in a place of critique, I'm in a social science. All you do all day is read in critique and say, oh, I would have done this better. I wonder why they didn't consider XYZ in this conceit. And so my era of pessimism luckily was short-lived, but I learned so much because what I realized

outside looking in is that I got nothing done. Was that even being hopeful and even slightly naive at times, I accomplished more than sitting in my pessimism and trying to account for all that

“could go wrong or why something would not work. And I think that's what got me to,”

even as pursuit of optimism, not as going back to being naive, per se. But as saying, well, I did the other thing and sat there and did nothing. And so optimism is the consideration that you may not get much done, but at least you're doing more than nothing. And I think it's especially clear when you're younger that like, well, I'm not just going to do nothing. There's too much time to do nothing. So I have to do something.

And it's easy later on to get stuck in the what is realistic or what's possible. How do you battle that in yourself? Some of it is really being in conversation with people. I think why the Optimus project came about was because of rooms like TED. And because of how rejuvenating it was to be in conversation with people that have introduced me to a field, I knew nothing about,

introduced me to a topic, I knew nothing about. And reason why I even loved school as much as I did was because there's nothing as exciting as realizing how little I know, it means that the door of possibility is just only slightly cracked open. And something that allows me personally to battle those feelings of what's realistic, those feelings of pessimism is realizing I'm working with 0.009. That's even a complete overestimation of the world's knowledge. And maybe that

there's something inspiring and impactful on the other side of continuing to learn. Yeah, I love to also love how precise you were that it was 0.009.8. I'm working in my general GPA with street smarts or lack thereof trying to come to a, I love that GPA plus street smarts divided by all of the world's knowledge. Well, I imagine there's a lot of people who are watching or listening who feel like that door of possibility is, it's hard to crack open. Since you've

done a lot of thinking about this, what are some of the practical tips you would offer for people who feel like, especially right now, like there's a lot of weight in that door of possibility

“feels pretty shut. The door of possibility feels pretty shut. I think I even said this in my talk,”

but it's where I turn to history as well. And I really do find hope in how many moments we've gone through just as a society that have felt extremely difficult, that have taken lots of effort to

push through. So one of my first tattoos, which you can't really see, is 1963, just a 63,

for the year 1963. And for me, it's a reminder that there's so many people that work towards a future they weren't guaranteed, but new was necessary to fight for. I think of it as a world that I was able to inherit because of that work. And so I say that to really frame, sometimes I have to have conversations about who is this work for. This work self-servingly is for us and for right now and is necessary for right now. And at its most, you know, kind of egalitarian, it's for the future

and it's working towards something that we may not be able to see, but no is necessary. And then on a less esoteric level, there's certain just practical things of being like, the last couple years, I've been tracking what we call the hard-yes list. And this came from it was such a great thing.

have a new related to, we have a lot of great life talks. And one thing that we're figuring out, as we talk, quality of life, I realize for people that may not know, I'm talking about Kary Shihidi. Okay, my mother, okay, my partner and all things wonderful. And so we started developing what we just called the hard-yes list of things that bring you joy. And it can really range. It can range

“from a color, a food, a person, a conversation you had. And the thought was, you have to build”

your arsenal of things to fall back on. And have that in your back pocket at all times. And it was so nice to be able to throughout the years kind of contribute to this list so that when I was

hitting those moments, it's not so much always about persevering through those moments, but being

like, what can I do right now that provides an actual material reset for me? And because I've been hanging attention through the year of having those moments of, let me write this down. I'm at a concert and I feel so filled up. I love live music. Or I've been prioritizing getting coffee with friends. And this is brought me this feeling. Or, you know, Yara, you need to stop wearing all black when you're feeling down because I know how important color is to lifting your mood.

Had all of these really cool mix of things to turn back to. And so that's one thing that I love that I feel like everybody has the ability to do for themselves, which just starts with basic observation of your day-to-day. I love the hard-yes list. I've never done it. That's such a great idea.

I had no name for it. On my desk, I have a thing that says, go outside eat something

good, meet someone, learn something, laugh hard. Love that. And I'm just like, if I can do a few of these every day, this is a good day. But I love that idea of it's a hard-yes list. Yeah, it came from the fact that I had a year of no. And so I'd call it my year of no because it was me exercising just my free will of being like, I'm not trying to do that. No, being really precise about where I want to spend my time. But then the year of no was followed by a year of yes,

but the year of yes was not cutting it because it wasn't just about saying yes to everything. It was about actually being just as discerning about what I was saying yes to and what not only helped let's say in my career journey, but just in my life journey. And that's where the hard-yes list came in, which was, what is that thing that is an undeniable yes, the moment you hear it? And life

“isn't always filled with those, so how can we take it into our own hands to sprinkle those things in?”

Yeah, one thing I love about this is you know, I always see things a little bit through the lens

of comedy and humor. And I think that people sometimes think that it's like frivolous or that it's lighter and that like serious people are pessimists and serious people don't believe there's hope. And that if you think there is and you're kind of, you don't get it or you're not observing as deeply. And one thing I love about when you're hard-yes list, but also just the way you think about optimism is that it's not like you're denying reality. It takes actually a lot of work

to be like I'm going to acknowledge this and I'm going to find a path forward. I'm going to find a way that I can move forward. That's not just letting it be the way it is. It actually is taking away more seriously than the people who say it's bad and it's always going to be bad. Absolutely. And what's nice is I feel like that's actually backed up. I think it's Dr. Lori Santos who runs the class on happiness, who had even said that we think that skepticism and pessimism is the

more intellectual, higher-brow, more realistic way of seeing the world. But that involves just as much naive as being extremely blissful, let's say. And part of when we're on the journey of the Optimist Project, the Optimist Project didn't start from this feeling of oh, we got optimism nailed. It was more so from the fact that it takes a lot of work. Yeah.

“And it's something that you have to cultivate daily and it's something that you have to pour into”

because life is challenging and we're acknowledging that. Optimism is not what exists in a vacuum on your best day, but how you're pulling through for yourself on your worst days. And so so much of what we came to even from having conversations with sociologists and entertainers was that if joy is the feeling Optimism is the practice and it is the fighting for that joy, even amidst all of the challenges, it's not about ignoring the world. It's about taking the world very seriously and knowing

that in order to function in this world it requires so many tools, so much pouring into self, so much pouring into community and how are we going to go about that? Well, I want to kind of go back to something which is you're talking about your tattoo that says 1963. And as I've been on my own, you know, journey to try and learn and understand and also think about the ways that I've been educated in the world, I do think that some of the like pessimism and shock that I sometimes

feel is like a very white experience to be like things were good and now they're not good for two years and that's so bad. And I think that remembering that like in the United States of America,

the work is done, right? That it was like hundreds of years and continues to be a process.

“I think that for me is good to like take a look at my own shock and be like,”

but aren't things supposed to happen immediately? And instead realize like it's work and you don't get there and your kids might not get there, but you can move things as you think about it as like a generational journey. How do you think about the balance between like acknowledging setbacks and also still having the vision for moving things forward in that historical perspective? Right. Well I love that observation because I think you're right and I think generationally there's

a bit of that shock as well of not necessarily being as tethered or tied to our past in the same way. And so there is a bit of shock of being like if you were born into a generation in which

when I think of the discrepancies between my brother and I who are eight years apart but still

Gen Z and he was born into a world in which marriage equality was a thing by the time he hit like adolescence and even just eight years back we I had lived a great chunk of my life while that was still being fought for and so thinking that even a couple of years span things went from being fought for to being a given and now we're kind of at a phase where we're realizing oh it's not a given. I may not have been there for a while people were fighting for it and I was born into a

world where I thought this was just a thing and that we weren't going backwards but now we're at a

“phase where I think so many of us are realizing in real time that we have been the inheritors”

of so much great work that has to be fought for and has to be maintained. There's a lot of stuff

that is kind of easy to fight for when it's like making the world better when the wind is at your

back right like it's really easy to be like I'm for this thing that everyone is for and then when the wind's shift and all of a sudden it's actually like well maybe everyone's not for that thing it could be one of so many topics right it could be like whatever the current buzzword is it could be like DEI could be gender inclusivity it could be anything when this podcast comes out I have no idea what the current thing will be but absolutely when the wind's shift how do you find

the way of saying like this is actually worth it being risky and I'm going to keep fighting for that versus like well I was kind of just saying something that everyone else was saying that is something I'm really struggling with right now. It's such a great question because it's nothing I've directly talked about but thought about it in different ways and that even when I was coming up with the world of blackish there was an era in the media landscape in which it was so cool to be

an actor with a voice and to be an activist and so they'd even ask you you know just look like little wall questions of like do you believe humans should be equal yes and then the cover would be fighting for human rights y'all are she heady takes a stance and that just really spoke to what I'd think of is this yearning to say oh it's cool to have this voice and to be politically active and that's our new way of creating role models people that are unafraid to have those conversations

but again it was in a vogue and now we're in a time or we're experiencing a time in which it is a

“lot less in vogue and I think there's a reintroduction of stakes like you're saying to”

having an opinion that even a couple years ago would have just been to your point you know we have full women's marches with millions of people saying that they believe the same thing we have this we have that all of these things reaffirming that I'm in the right and I don't necessarily have a clear answer for that I'd have to say pulling from what's been given to me one family conversation we have a lot that was introduced by my aunt is highest order what's your highest order

and there's so many words for highest order you could replace it with what are your priorities what moves you what's your purpose but highest order I think is a way of capturing what are the three things let's say that you feel like your actions are driven from or you want your actions to be driven from and what I like about highest order is that you can take that on this macro scale of what should I be fighting for I want my life to be one of purpose impact this or

that and you can take it on a smaller scale like for the sake of this project my highest order is sharing information and accessibility and you may be sitting across from someone whose highest order is making money and creating generational wealth and it's not to say one highest order is better than the other but this is my long-winded way of saying as we've been facing these conversations I come less with answers and more just with the tools we've been employing which is a lot of

conversations on highest order on when we sit with ourselves I think it's unfair to expect us to have answers even no matter how long you've been living this life I think it's unfair to face this moment and think that you should be walking in with clarity and so we deserve this space

place of wanting to be of impact but right now presents new obstacles new new stakes and you deserve the right to have that space to be able to think it through you know I've been lucky enough to sit in a couple corner west classes and professor west I just love because he's somebody that to me captures optimism in that I couldn't think of someone that is so granularly aware of every bad thing happening in the world and yet so joyous so hopeful so loving and one thing

he says in every class I feel like the first time I heard him say it I nodded and pretended like

“I got it but he was saying you know some of being a part of life is being on intimate terms”

with catastrophe and I feel like that phrase develops new meaning for me every time I hear it sometimes it makes a lot of sense sometimes I'm like do I understand what that means but I feel like this is one of those moments at least in my life and I'd have to speak go so far as to say communally in which we're understanding what it means to be on intimate terms with catastrophe and to your earliest point it's something that so many of our communities have had to do for

generation after generation it just happens to be our turn yeah it's it's a beautiful life putting

it it's really helpful and absolutely and I'd honestly say that's not even reserved for people

that are public facing or celebrities anymore especially with social media there's such a need to comment on everything that's happened in a timely way to prove that you're thinking about it to prove that you care and I know the intersection for me of being a young person on the internet and being you know an actor that had this public platform really amplified that of feeling like there was a moment where looking at my Instagram I looked like CNN light the ones you don't need

a subscription for because so much of it was coming from a really authentic place but feeling like

“oh I need to tell you what I think of this and people are expecting me to say what I think of this”

moment that's happened but it really ranged from natural disasters to this thing that's happening in the world to oh this person one in the world and I want to show my love for this person and while it comes from a real place it also was amplified by exactly that instinct of being like people expect that I have a thought on this and so I need to let people know what I'm thinking about

this and there was a moment just personally where it was like first of all some things started

happening that I didn't have thoughts on yeah and I started to become comfortable one in saying just like when I look at the people that I look up to they're extremely well studied and not just well studied in that oh they have certain degrees even if it's the school of life they are thinking about the thing that they're speaking about they're grappling with it regularly and so part of why I went to school and part of even kind of my the way I'm now approaching how I speak about things

a little differently was because I was like more than more than thinking about what my audience deserves I deserve the right to be well studied on things that I moved by and because I was 14 and I was on a show that was unabashedly taking on these big topics that meant that I had a mic and had people asking me about what is my take on police brutality and while I'm so grateful for the audience that's created for me and meant that there was still so much

life for me to live to really develop full opinions and when I became a student I don't think I suddenly came out with a degree and all the answers by any means but it gave me the space to actually dive deep into the things that I've really cared about and to learn about I've weather intentionally or not been speaking about things that certain movements have been addressing for decades generations

“how am I fitting into that picture what do I think my role is in that and my role keeps changing”

but when I came out of school and when I was then thinking about reintroducing my own voice some of it came from in order for my voice to have impact it's important to be a little granular about what you speak on and it's okay to say oh I don't have much information on that or oh I defer to this person who I think has a really well formed opinion on the matter but I think the same goes for everybody I happen to be in this you know maybe exaggerated situation of being an

actor and doing a lot of interviews where those things happen but so many of us are dealing with those moments of being like yeah even on a friend level I didn't see you share about this to me this intersex with optimism because if you believe that the world can get to be a better place if you believe that people can become more informed and things can change you kind of also

mistake or current ignorance is not where they're going to end up I feel like for me one of the

things that I just have to believe in the most is that we're not set that things aren't fixed but that we can grow and change and for me that that's really tight optimism like my belief that anyone can grow and change in all of these ways is what allows me to be an optimist especially

“as a young person I think something that people struggle with a lot is like having to feel like”

it's figured out how to know who you're going to be and how to vision and so again I think you had an exaggerated version of this but I think that that can be really informative and I think you were on a hit TV show and you were a student at Harvard and you had these two identities that in some ways really don't match up at all and you had to figure out who am I and what do I care about and am I both of these things plus more is this one identity that I'm defining so how

do you how did you and how do you still think about like the nuances of yourself. For so long I knew I wanted to be a student I knew that I was a nerd that was an identity I was very sure about. I've been a nerd yes since the moment I hopped out the womb nothing has changed and so I'm grateful that you know I was born and she just kind of a family model where I was able to be all the things for a while where my acting career didn't stop me from being in school

or stop me from pursuing my love of history and then it really wasn't until I started black

as at the age of 14 where the first kind of sets of decisions had to be made because it was the

first time in my career up to that point where I was filming a television show that was going to take up the majority of the year and up to that point I'd be in school I'd pop out for a movie and I'd do distance learning or I'd do something like that whereas this was the first time where it was

“like oh cam kind of reconsidering and reconsidering what life is going to be configured and and how”

are we going to make space for all the things that we had made space for before and I'd have to say season one was a lesson in giving myself just the space to be all the things because I came in season one ready to be an actor and I'd have to say I didn't do much acting season one okay and it could just be the way the universe worked and you know the audience may not know but from an actor's perspective you're sitting on set five days a week and you may only shoot a

couple scenes but everything in your life has paused for this to be the thing that you're focusing on and so sitting here twiddling my thumbs a little like well I'm not doing the thing that I really want to do which is which is act and so at that moment mommy and I looked at each other and she just asked me the question what else do you want to be doing by the time season two came along it blossomed so many of my natural interests because it wasn't about going to pursue certain things

at the biggest scale but it's just giving myself the space to pursue them in the first place for

example I'd have to say that's when a lot of my civic engagement work started because it was like well this is what's moving me right now and so how can I be in the right space is just to learn from people where can we be to be able to share my love of education and so I think many of the things that I may be more known for now came from that moment of saying we're kind of veering against the path of just saying oh I'm an actor to say there's so much that has inspired me

that I want to be able to pursue and the reason I say that is because then it only bettered my journey as an actor one because the writers came out of the writers human were like oh wow she's up to a lot actually but also because I think it gave myself more life experience to work from I feel like when I'd stepped into my own show I was ready for it those things that we think of as side projects really do help us develop even what our main career is and while that shouldn't be the point

so many of the people that I admire and even speaking to my own journey are only bettered by the fact that they have other random things nagging at them that they feel called to look at and when I then look at a young person where like there's such a focus on being an expert or being good at something and even watching my brother go through college applications right now it's interesting

“because you have to there's so many stages in life and what you're expected to write down”

this is what I've been up to this is who I am this is why you want me in this space and it's so counterintuitive to how humans grow and to how some of our most impactful humans have developed their source of impact it's been from just being able to experience things in the world and and have a very full experience we're going to take a quick break and then we will be right back with more from yara this podcast is brought to you by wise the app for international people

with no markups or hidden fees with the ascending pounds across the pond spending rails and Rio while getting paid in dollars for your side gig you'll get the mid-market exchange rates on every

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or visit wise.com tees and sees a play and we are back I think everyone deals with that

“question of well what do I want to do what matters to me and what is my purpose and I think”

and experience that many people have later on mostly in like middle age is I've achieved some or most or maybe even all of the thing that I thought I wanted to do so what comes next you know I think like jet appetite has a joke about like everyone everyone knows that money doesn't make you happy but everyone wants to find that out for themselves and you've achieved this thing and yet it's not all how do you have like a moment of looking back inside and then saying like

well what will be my purpose what actually matters to me in addition to this thing I experience

that not only on the side of being an actor but also on the side of being a student even my journey of just being a student it was something that I so look forward to I remember by the age of 15 I knew exactly where I wanted to go I knew what I wanted to study and there were a couple things of being a student and one realizing that this wasn't even everything and so many times it was nice to be able to get a grade because it felt like somebody is affirming your life path

and saying you're doing this thing really well and you don't get that in the rest of your life no that's the thing I missed the most yeah and so I remember even in being a student and wanting to follow other interests and follow my acting career because I had a contractual obligation to be filming a show at the same time it was interesting to see what people said that's just too much and it wasn't from a space of them even looking at the schedule and saying oh that's just

logistically too much it was them just saying like no when you're a student we take pride in

“people only being students here and surrendering everything else and that's how I know this experience”

was so not just about me and being an actor it was my friends having to give up so much of their outside lives to be able to be a student because that's what this school kind of prided themselves on doing and I remember because I had to go kind of pitch to each professor what I what I kind of had intended on on doing which is I have this contractual obligation to a show that I love filming and I have an obligation to myself which is to pursue my education and one professor who could not

tell the difference between blackish and blackfish and the blacklist was like you know I just believe students should have the right to explore what peaks they're interest and I loved it so wasn't about him saying go film that show I know it was just him saying I feel like people should have the space to be a full human in this idea of surrendering everything else that you're interested in is counter-intuitive but even to your a point of achieving something big isn't achieving

all of it I remember graduating and I got the grades on my thesis that I had wanted and I walk across the the stage and I'm like whoa has my thesis become irrelevant and a matter of 30 seconds because I went from doing this thing that I'd been looking forward to for four years and I had just spent so much time knowing that I'm going to have this thesis defense and defense of my major and then suddenly I'm like when in the world am I ever going to talk about this again

after graduating and so that was another real life moment that happened only a couple of years ago like okay how am I going to define myself my show grown-ish kind of came to a conclusion right around the same time and these were two anchoring things in my life for upwards of 10 years of my academic journey my TV journey and suddenly I didn't have grades and I didn't have classes

“and my time was really mind to define and that was really overwhelming because I think I found”

comfort and even being like Yara is two things she's a student she's an actor and there was a real moment of that I'm still in of having to continue to define who is Yara a day by day and it has gone back to the question of highest order of okay if I'm not just going to anchor my life in school and work what are those things that are moving me and one thing that's helped my journey

is that I'm always in conversation with all sorts of people around me to realize we are hitting

these life moments at every age and you know just the other day me and my pop-out took my amy who took my amy by storm it was very calm but it was to my staff a granddaughter grandfather weekend because so much of our conversation was about how we're kind of at the same stage of life of figuring out what is my purpose and hitting this moment of why am I here why are humans here

pop-out who again may not be able to say concretely oh no we're here to do x y and z but to say how are we at least going to make it through this phase of life together with answers that feel sufficient for right now and maybe that's all we're looking for something that's sufficient for right now you had this line in in your TED talk which I loved you said my interests are everything

from the clock and spiel to Octavia but look so first of all that just sounds that's great yes

but are those actually really interest for you yes I actually recently used the clock and spiel in an audition tape that I sent it it wasn't even requested as a part of I would imagine it rarely is requested that we requested but that's so fun why do you love the clock and spiel I'd have to say I'm bad at it I'm not good and also for anyone listening it's just a fancy word for a zylophone I love using clock and spiel it makes it sound so much more official but I am such a amateur

music hobbyist like my room is full of things that would indicate that I'm the next musical prodigy that I'm not because I have a ton of things that I don't know how to use so a clock and spiel I have a full set of DJ equipment I have a talk box which is the kind of OG Auto tune that you plug into a keyboard and there's this great video of Stevie Wonder doing like playing his talk box while on the keyboard and so I'm just so tickled by music I'm so moved by music I think

I'm so impressed by any art form of creating where it's like you had nothing in front of you and you created something as actors oftentimes you're at the end of that creation process where somebody has written the script already or has kind of thought about the world that you're

“going to occupy so that's why I'm a clock and spiel enthusiast because it's a nice mix of being”

able to pursue my love of music well also not taking it too seriously because whenever I find myself about to take it too seriously I sit here like the girl you're on the clock and spiel come down I love that as as a like a mantra to come back to you're someone who is clearly able to succeed at the highest levels right I mean you've done each part of your life you've done things that are like the the highest level and most challenging thing like the 1% of 1% of 1% of people can

able to do this so it's fun to think about what role being bad plays in your life and it's something we often think like well surely someone who goes to Harvard and has succeeded in the entertainment industry they must avoid being bad at all times but you're embracing it and it's something that I'm embracing that's quite new actually I think even though I didn't come from a family that stressed grades I took great pride in being like I'm doing well at school I have these objective

things around me telling me that I'm doing a good job and I know some of it may come from being overly confident myself but I also at times have this pesky instinct that I should be

good at something regardless of how much practice I've had or if I've never heard of it a great

example of this was I was doing an interview series and the big conceited the interviews that I was going to go do something that the guests wanted to do that they do in their free time because it was similarly interesting to us to be like well what do people that are experts at one thing do when it's time to not be an expert and so that meant we went horseback riding went to the gym

“all things I'm infamously bad at I remember starting one episode and I was like hey guys we're in the”

gym we have this guy that's like a great gymnast we have a gym teacher I can't cartwheel most importantly I have no cartwheeling aspirations okay that's also very important yeah and there's a photo of me in ballet class learning how to forward tumble I can't forward tumble you know there's lots of things I'm good at but this is one thing I'm just not good at and as soon as we start rolling they say great they're going to teach you how to cartwheel

go shoot because I also hate being bad in public so I was like well great we're it sounds like we're gonna cartwheel and do handstands I was so devastated I went into the bathroom and shed a tear uh huh mind you this is the lowest stakes situation like yeah may it may be embarrassing to not be great at something in public and it was such a necessary moment in my life to be like why am I getting such a large emotional reaction to being bad at something I have no right being good at

I get how this would be devastating if I was on the US Olympics team and then I came and just made a total fool of myself in the gym but I'm not and so that began my very intentional pursuit of being bad and of creating situations in which I know the point is to be an amateur and

“I really do love how many doors that's open because there's so many doors I think I preemptively”

closed for myself knowing or just feeling like I had an instinct that I wouldn't be able to do it well or that it could be embarrassing and I think it's really bettered my life because it's one littered my life with lots of fun hobbies that I'm not particularly good at but I pull

immense joy from and so it could be water coloring or crocheting I've never completed a scarf

but I have so many squares and I love the act of crochet I love just the level of focus you

it's something I think people actually like hanging out with you more if you're like I'm kind

“of terrible at the glass if you're with I'm an amazing black and spieler they're like I'm not going”

to show you I'm not about to black and spiel in front of you absolutely you've started with and

even though I know what that word means I would never want something black and spiel in front of me

“well you're a shitty thank you so much for being on the show I think you're so great I really appreciate”

you on that is it for today's episode of how to be a better human thank you so much to Yara Shahidi

you can listen to her podcast the Optimus Project wherever you listen to podcasts I am your host

“Chris Duffy and my new nonfiction book humor me is out now you could find out more about my book”

my live show dates and other projects at christduffycomedy.com how to be a better human is put together by a team that sounds better than a freshly tuned glock and spiel on the Ted side we've got the fully grownest and yellow ball arazzo band band Chang Michelle Quint Chloe Shawshar Brooks Valentina Bohanini Laney lot tons of Kassun Manivong Antonio Lay and Joseph de Brian this episode was fact checked by Matthias Salis who is neither optimistic nor pessimistic about the

truth on the PRX side they are the Harvard of audio producers Morgan Flanary Norgill Patrick Grant and Jocelyn Gonzalez thanks to you for listening we would not be a show without you so we are very very grateful please send this episode to anyone who helps you figure out your own life we will be back next week with even more how to be a better human until then take care