Episode 8: The Allure of an Answer

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So let's see, so do we want to share with them about what, you know, do you guys want to hear a little story, whatever you want to do? Sarah's Uber's parents placed a large white cross on the side of the road where her body was found. Over time, people have added mementos to the spot.

There's a statue of an angel, some candles, and painted rocks. Sometimes the zippers didn't even know who was leaving things, but every time a new object appeared, it meant something. March 13, 2025, marked six years since Sarah died. That morning, Rebecca picked a fistful of daffodils from her garden and ride and I followed

her in Randy up the road. Well, we're messed up, man. People are people in general, you know, something about death, you know, everybody is enthralled with it, but everybody, no one wants to really deal with it or talk about it. Some people just don't, I don't know, but I keep that candle going, so maybe someone

“will remember, remember, no someone cares.”

Randy took the flowers from Rebecca and put them in a vase. The ground was wet from rain that morning. "Anyway." "Anyway, so Randy adds to this once in a while, I'll add more lights and stuff and I'll take a little shower."

"He takes real good care of this." For the family, this is a way of remembering Sarah, but it's also a permanent marker of their grief. Go one way out of their driveway, they pass it, drive the other way, they go by this cemetery, we're Sarah's buried.

I don't know, is this, yeah, I go ahead.

"Three at question, yes, this is what's always gotten me.

“I always thought that Sarah or anyone, how would you walk up this road?”

Wouldn't you cross over there and be at, you wouldn't be walking on this side, and even if you're going to walk on the way down, you would still walk on this side because this is too bad of a corner, and there's nowhere to get off the road." The zoo bears try to weigh the daughter they knew, the quiet, naïve girl, with the person, the district attorney, the police, and the medical examiner described in their official

reports. Someone's so drunk, she couldn't make it 400 feet to her house. "Your question has been immune, you also keep this really beautiful." "And we stay here, we live here, is that your question?" "Yeah, what?

I have a friend who asked me the same thing, she's like, if it wasn't me, I would have wanted to move right away, I wanted to get out of there, and I'm sure that that's probably

what's happening with Katy and Abby, they never come and spend the night, they'll come

once in a while, but they rarely come over here." "I couldn't, I just am not ready, she's here, I feel like I'm not ready to leave her." "We've talked about it, we've talked about it, but we've talked about it, but we've talked about it, but we've never come out." "Yeah, we've never come out, but we've really had to tell us something, those basin, evidence, and fact, and we're afraid that if we move, I mean, what am I biggest spirit? Is that that shall be forgotten? That everyone will forget about our shall be forgotten."

“The zoo bears stay close to this spot because they want to remember their daughter's life, but they're also held by the people who are in the world.”

They're also held here by all those unanswered questions about her death. Maybe they could move on if they just bought the story, the powers that be in Columbia County have tried to tell, but they can't. Something about it feels wrong. Like, it's a story that's convenient for everyone else, but then. From Oregon Public Broadcasting, "This is Hush, I'm Leah Satilly. This is episode 8, the Allure of an Answer." I think one of the most frustrating things about true crime storytelling is that it makes you believe any death is solvable if you try hard enough.

and the best answer they can offer is that she was drunk. They point to a medical examiner's report

“and a blood alcohol test as definitive proof about what happened. But is it?”

The zoo bears never knew their daughter to be a drinker. Neither did her boyfriend,

the shawl Christian, who was one of the closest people to Sarah when she died. And her sister Katie, the last person to see her alive, said, "Without a doubt, the Sarah wasn't drunk when she walked out her door." Everyone we talked to said, "They were surprised by this alcohol story." What the medical examiner concluded is that she died from a super high alcohol content in her in her no way. Yeah, and I thought that was crazy what they say.

One day, I called Noah Nelson. He's friends with Vashal, and was living with Vashal's family

at the time of Sarah's death. He hung out with Sarah and Vashal. Noah said he heard all kinds

of crazy theories of how Sarah died, that she'd been choked to death, that she jumped out of a moving car, but nothing involving alcohol. It's unexpected because she did have a very instant demeanor. Again and again, when we talked to people, they tell us how surprised they were by the official conclusion. I mean, she was just a good kid. This is Taylor Elliott. He owned grocery outlet back in 2019, but has since sold it and moved out of state. She worked for me. I don't

think it was longer than six months before she passed away. I don't know how long it was,

“but I always enjoyed seeing her. She was a good employee. I think everybody at the store really cared”

for her. She's very quiet, very, very to herself. When Ryan told him Sarah died from drinking, Taylor was shocked. Really? Yeah. I didn't hear anything about the autonomy. I met by literally like that investigation happen and then like freaking nothing. Well, I didn't hear anything.

So the police just like never came back or said anything. No, no, I was surprised because

literally it was the day after maybe the next day. I can't remember, but it was like that happened and that was basically it. Taylor had a hard time believing this girl who worked for him. A grocery outlet would have died that way. We could see in police reports that Lieutenant Steve Salih interviewed the employees at the store. He even went through Sarah's locker. There was a uniform and some cool aid packets, but that was it. Taylor had employees who he considered unreliable

or even shady, but that wasn't Sarah. That doesn't seem in character for her at all. I wouldn't say that to hear that there's alcohol and both seems very odd for her. She seems very, I don't know. Maybe a little sheltered, but just like, I just couldn't see her doing that. It was so hard to make sense of the disconnect between the Sarah that everyone knew punctual, reliable, smart, sheltered, and the Sarah that the sheriff, the district attorney,

and the medical examiner, believed was real. A girl who was secretive, heavy drinker. We decided we had to sit down with Detective Dave Peabody one more time to try to understand these two Sarah's. The one everyone knew and the one everyone was being told to believe was real. You know, I keep my little book right here on the Zuber thing. It's obviously coming in part, because I've used it so much. These are binders that you keep. Those are all binders on one case.

Peabody told us at this interview that he was retiring. He planned to pass on the Zuber case to another detective. We asked him if there was something he wished he could have done differently for the Zubers. If there was a chance we could come to something resolute and say without

“questioning what happened to Sarah, that is the only thing we could really do for her family.”

Whether they accepted that or not, that's not my issue, right? But that is the respect that we could show her family. I think they've been done so much harm already. What do you think has been harmful to them? I think this whole justice for Sarah Zuber. I'm not saying the cause isn't legit. I'm saying the motivation behind the cause. I don't believe was pure. I think they were used in something else. I think you don't benefit or use someone else's tragedy that way. That's not.

My feeling is it was political and motivated and I think they're paying a price for that and I don't like that.

In previous interviews, Peabody said he'd used his breathalyzer to examine a bottle found in Sarah's pocket when she died. That test was also mentioned as proof of Sarah's drinking when

“district attorney Jeff Oxyer officially closed the case in 2021. But do you have documentation on that test?”

I don't know that I ever did. I think this came up that something to the effect that that report, yeah, I don't know if I did a report on that. I think I thought I did. I think it was, I put that out there in the meeting and at the time out on the scene, did all that. But I don't, I think that might have been something missed and that I missed in an actual report. Okay. Okay.

In all of our records requests on this case, we never received a report that Peabody documented

breathalyzer test. And remember, the lab test on the liquid in that bottle didn't confirm alcohol. It said the liquid was dirty water and here was Peabody saying, yeah, I don't think I ever did a report on that. In the DA's closing memo, he also pointed to messages Sarah sent the night she died as evidence of what happened, like the HEPL0 message. Police interpreted to mean help. We could see in the police records, there was an unsigned warrant for Sarah's Facebook messages. You had filed an

affidavit for a search warrant. And I believe this was April 2019 for Facebook messages involving Sarah's Uber. But there's all, I guess I'm curious, did you end up getting that information? Can't tell you that right now. Normally speaking, I usually pass the Facebook off to one of our younger deputies. Well, but I mean, you're the one who filed for this warrant and says you're filing. I mean, it was filed under possible murder charges. I guess explain to me. So, there is not

“this warrant's not even signed. Right. Well, I mean, I guess that's why I was wondering. You're going to get”

filed, was it? If you get anything, that's what I'd have to look into. Okay. We didn't see any Facebook records in the police files, and now Peabody was telling us he couldn't be sure they even filed the search warrant. It was another error that happened during this investigation. Like Dr. Millius's typo that said Sarah's minor injuries could have caused her death or Dr. Millius's autopsy report that said Sarah had a neck fracture, which she told us

never existed. We were being asked to believe that the official conclusions about what happened to Sarah's

Uber were correct, even as errors seem to keep piling up. Toward the end of our conversation with Peabody, things took a strange turn. What if she got the alcohol herself, or we could never pick it to a person, right? And what if unprovable to all of us, what if she got it on her own? She went out was drinking, she had an obsession with walking on the road, right? You've read the reports, reading anything like that? I don't know, I don't know, I'm gonna call it an obsession, but she

didn't walk on the road like, "Yes." Her anything about poetry? We already see her on the right right. Yeah. Anatomy? Okay, at some point, is that not an obsession? I don't know. I don't know if I

“care anything. I think she was into. Yeah. Okay, so okay, better word than something she's into,”

but either way, what if it's just that simple? If that's really the truth, and I'm not saying it is, I'm just saying, "If unbeknownst to all of us, that really is the truth." And it's just that simple. All of this stuff we're doing is for not because there's really nothing else out there to get. We're searching for something that's not there. That doesn't mean we don't stop searching.

It felt like he was grabbing at straws, trying to hold on to anything. It was confusing what he was trying to say, and all we could come down on is that this was his way of pointing the blame at Sarah, an implication that he thinks kids who like poetry or anime, they're weird and weird kids die in weird ways. Law enforcement and the medical examiner couldn't find a clear answer for what happened to Sarah, so they pieced a story together from a few facts

“about alcohol. Have you ever seen the image of the euro burrows, the snake eating its tail?”

I feel safe saying that everything about the zuber investigation is like that,

a never-ending circle of accusations and questions. When the zubers felt the sheriff's office

couldn't give them a good answer, they turned to Jennifer Massey for help. Jennifer said, the sheriff's detective's failed and told a story of Sarah dying in a hidden run, but she also looked past the fact that Sarah didn't have broken bones or serious injuries. And now, Peabody seemed to be implying one of the biggest problems with this whole ordeal was that Jennifer gave the zubers false hope that she inserted herself in the situation for political gain.

This dysfunction, this picking of facts that fit a story seem to be the real problem here. We don't know for sure what happened to Sarah's zuber, and yet so many people are claiming they do. They're making their best guesses and trying to convince this family it makes sense. Even when a medical examiner changes her reports, or a warrant isn't signed or filed, or a former district attorney refuses to answer questions, or a politician points to a convenient suspect

without any real evidence. The message is simple, pick the person you want to believe. Federal funding for public media has been eliminated, that means KMHD is entirely community funded, and your support is more important than ever. Go to KMHD.org and join as a rhythm section member with your ongoing monthly contribution now. Thank you. I'm betting none of this is the true crime ending you were hoping for.

We spent a long time understanding this case, and gaining trust from people in Columbia County, we spent a lot of time knocking on doors, driving the back roads, seeing the ways people move about their lives here. We've tried to get the most accurate story of what happened to Sarah.

“A story backed up by facts. This is the part of the media's role that I think has fallen apart”

in the true crime world. Understanding a tragic death like Sarah Zubers is about more than pointing fingers and speculating. A journalist job is to get the straight story and hold people in power accountable when something goes wrong. That was one of our main goals when we interviewed Columbia County Sheriff Brian Pixley. The Zubers have long felt like Sheriff Pixley hasn't done enough to solve Sarah's death. We started with a basic question. If 18-year-old Sarah Zuber died from

alcohol, who gave her that alcohol? Because I think that that's one thing that we've never

quite seen addressed is here's this girl who had almost no friends, very small community, very sheltered. Where did she just base that basic thing? Where did she get this alcohol? I don't

“see that there was evidence of that. I believe we've looked for that, but we couldn't find any”

specific evidence. There was no parties. I was specifically we tracked her vehicle when she left grocery outlet that night. She actually went west but away from her house. And then we followed her until we couldn't find her on cameras anymore. We interviewed people who we thought may have made of furniture alcohol. We just we don't know. There's nothing that point to a specific person did she get this from off the liquor cabinet? What does this look like? When you're doing an investigation

like that, are you not writing up? I never saw anything in the records about like I talked to someone

so and asked them questions about like, did you could Sarah alcohol? The common thing would be yes to have a contact, you have a contact, you talk to him at the contact. I can't speak to why that didn't happen in this case. So here was Pixley saying he was certain his people asked around

wasn't sure, but even so he trusts that Sarah was drunk. He's just with this thing as a real head scratcher. We go around and around talking about it because it's like nobody knew her to drink. So years ago when I went to the scapula police department, I went to a report of an MIP party.

And this was my first experience dealing with this, hundreds of kids drinking.

And so I was out there. I was interviewing this this 14, 15, 16 year old girl. However, she was waiting for a parent to show up. And literally we're talking mid-sentence. She's like follow-up and she can't stand up anymore. She had that anything to drink for

“the 20 minutes I've been talking to her. But I think she drinks so much so quick that it just”

all hit her at the same time. The story of the sheriff and other officials are asking us and you the listener to trust boils down to this. Sarah got extremely drunk in the short few minutes between when she argued with Katie and walked out the door. Then she hid the evidence of that alcohol so well, no one would ever find it. Sarah sent two drunk and text messages, then passed out on the ground in the cold weather. For the next 13 hours, people drove by

and no one saw her laying there. Or another possible story is that Sarah left grocery outlet went to buy Katie her soda, got extremely drunk somewhere, drunk drove all the way up those windy rural roads, fought with Katie, then laid down and died. And yet, no one has ever answered this one simple question. Who got Sarah the alcohol? If someone did supply an underage person without alcohol, then they would die from that. I mean, is that in the realm of criminal, or is

I just an accident? If I gave you too much alcohol and you died, and we could piece that together.

“Then, yeah, I think we could get a murder charge, or at least a criminal crime day calm,”

homicide on this person. Something that the charge makes them responsible for that death. Because that makes sense. So, if you did find a person who said, yeah, I gave her alcohol, or whatever. Or I would talk to the district attorney's office about prosecuting. We asked Pixley, if there was anything he would have done differently in the super case, or if you'd like to say anything to the family. Do you feel like there's any

situation where you might want to apologize to the superers or offer any kind of apology? I don't know what I would apologize for. If it makes them feel better, I'd be happy to tell them sorry, but I wouldn't. It would be a hollow apology because I don't know. I don't know what to apologize about, I guess. What it comes down to. Pixley has a daughter who's Sarah's age and said he can't imagine what it would be like

to be in the super situation. But he doesn't think he has anything to apologize for, because, according to him, district attorney Jeff Oxyer was leading the major crimes team that assembled, and it wasn't his job as Sheriff to figure out what happened.

We played parts of our interview with Pixley for the Zubers, so this podcast wouldn't be the first

“time they heard what he had to say. Yeah, I think we read what to say this without exactly like an asshole.”

If you're a family trying to heal from the death unfortunate tragic loss of your daughter, and then you have this other, and you're being told by the people who are actually investigating the case, this is what we have found. And you have this other group of people over here saying, "Well, they're wrong. I heard this." And that means they're wrong. No, that fucking guy. That's like, Randy started to get really agitated. One thing we're putting the bandied on and every time

that other group tells them something else, they're ripping the bandied back off. And I think that would confuse the hell out of anyone. And that would especially when you're trying to heal from such a tragic incident, it's like, from my perspective, that's being re-effected by his whole work and over and over again. He thinks we're a bunch of people. Maybe we are. No, he thinks we're stupid. No, being re-effected by his like, there was two different people telling

us two different things. He's never fucking over. He never told us. If he would come and talk to us,

I can straighten him out. And he wouldn't go, "Well, you know what, Mr. Zubbers, just a grieving father." And I'm not just speaking out of my ass. I got a body of evidence to look at. You don't know me, Mr. Pixley, but I know you a little bit because I see your writings in your

The Zubbers say for a sheriff who prides himself on knowing people in the small community,

“he's completely avoided speaking to them, or apologizing for any mistakes.”

We tell him, "Sorry, but I wouldn't go to the hollow projects. I don't know. I don't know what to apologize for. I guess what it comes down to." Yeah, he said, "I don't have anything to be sorry for." I mean, he's like, "Oh, I don't have anything to be sorry for." And I mean, even at the very slightest, you don't have anything to be sorry for any little thing that you could say your story about. And the other thing I was thinking was,

"Well, I mean, I guess it would make it them feel better," I'll say that I would call say, "I'm sorry." No, no, no. A child says that. I could think of lots of little things that you could say, he's sorry for. He's sorry that he wasn't clear with us on what he believes happened to Sarah.

“He's sorry that he never actually sat down with us to tell us. You know, I mean,”

we don't want a non-for-like event. There's plenty of little things that he could be saying he's sorry for. I mean, I don't even have a word about you speechless that I'm using on it. Randy got up and paced around the room. Rebecca looked calm and had much more cutting words for the sheriff. As just going to say, just listening to this, it reminds me that Sheriff Pixley spends a lot of time on feelings and talking about, "Oh, well, you know, if I was a parent, you know,

that, you know, I would feel horrible too." He spends a lot of time talking about feelings and defending, you know, hurting feelings or whatever, but he doesn't spend any time talking about

facts. He never told us about facts.

Facts. That's all the zubers want. Facts of how Sarah died. Facts of where she went in that hour after work. Facts. Did she spend money that night? What did she write on Facebook? Who else did she text? Did she willingly drink alcohol or did someone force her? Was she lying there all night long on the side of the road? They all seemed like questions that could have been answered, but they weren't. And now the zubers want facts about why exactly. They never got any answers.

There could be a lot of reasons. It could be that the autopsy findings steered the detectives in the wrong direction. It could be that the Columbia County Sheriff's office was unable to handle a complex case like this. It could be that political trauma got them away. It's hard to really believe anything completely in this case. And so, you're left to believe

“whatever you want. Do you trust the family, the new Sarah for 18 years, or the police?”

Do you trust the police whose job it is to solve homicide investigations or do you trust a group of Facebook's lives? Do you think that a girl with no serious physical injuries was hit by a car that a girl who was months away from starting college and who didn't party, drank herself to death,

that a neck fracture and a medical report never existed? Do you believe that a Sheriff has no

responsibility for a death investigation that fails to produce answers? These are the questions that keep the zoovers attached to the memorial next to their home. So many people over the last six years have tried to find answers about what happened to Sarah. And maybe part of that is because they think finding a clear answer would help the zebra family move on. When we visited Oregon State University Professor Justin St. Germaine

to learn about true crime, he told us he understood that desire. It's part of what drove him to write his memoir about his mother's murder. And what I would tell myself is like, if I

don't tell this version, it never gets told. This is like an unsatisfactory version. It's like

an imperfect version, but it's this or nothing. We wanted to know if writing what happened to his mother helped him move on, he did find a clear answer for who killed his mom, but it seemed like it may never be clear what happened to Sarah. You know, they don't have a clear answer. What do you think made you need that answer? I mean, I think for me, a lot of it was that I just felt like

okay, I'm going to move on. You know, just put it behind me, move on. There's all this pressure to

move on. There's all this pressure not to, in our kind of culture, not to whatever it is, linger, wallo, that kind of thing. And also, I mean, I just think like that part of the story is very uninteresting to audiences. It seems like the actual awfulness of grief, just not a lot of demand for that. People don't really want to know that part of a murder. You know what I mean? Like what the what the parents are going through, you know? And so, but for me, it was less a rational decision

“than at some point, I think it was like seven years later. I was like, oh, I have not moved on,”

you know what I mean? And I probably would be not going to until I like talk about this in it.

And we constantly debated if we were really doing any kind of good here, because we didn't have clear answers about what happened. And that drove us to do more reporting. We tracked down places, Sarah might have gone for a diet cream soda after work. Hey, Ryan. Guess where I am. Sunday, almost two o'clock, it's 140. And I'm in the parking lot of grocery outlet in right here. If there is a diet cream soda to be had across the river in Washington,

I'm going to make the drive. We wrote letters to the prison where Nick, the dangerous driver, was incarcerated. And he wrote us back, a one paragraph letter that asked us five times to give him money. What did he say? Okay, well, I won't read it to you right now and the letter here. Okay. If you want the truth, I can tell you who did it. I used to hang out with the dude who did it.

I tried to talk to David Peabody about it, but he was always too busy. I want the reward money

“if I talk about it though, as I will as it will start problems for me. If you want to give me”

the reward money, I'll give you the distance and address and word for word statement he told me. We tracked down people who knew Sarah and had given alcohol to underage girls before. We pressed Lieutenant Steve Silly, who took over the case after Peabody left to more thoroughly explore that question. Well, on the alcohol thing, I mean, are you any closer to figuring out where she got that alcohol? No, still talking to people. Yeah, I have, uh, uh, I think three other

people that I'm going to grow up and contact. Still, we had no answer, and that weighed on us. Maybe we had bought into the false promises of true crime storytelling too. Maybe we were just like everyone else and thought we could find a clean story about what happened. We could see now after all the mistakes are reporting uncovered that calling this true crime couldn't be more wrong. It was so much worse than that. It was bureaucratic horror.

All we could do was be honest with the zubers. We could tell them the facts, laid out in order,

“show them mistakes, and admit what we just didn't know for sure, because that's what journalism”

is supposed to do. You know, I know six years has gone by and you've been like, like, saints, I think with your patience, with these people, I, it's not admirable, but I really hope we haven't added any, you know, trauma or anything here. I know it's like hard to tell you how traumatized you me. Well, I just, you know, it's like talking more about the worst thing that's ever happened. Oh, yeah. No, it is terrible. It's a matter of fact. I've been detailed, so it's horrible thing.

Yeah, I've constantly said, I don't, I don't want to relive it anymore. I'm sick of it. You know, I, and stuff. And I stress out, you know, just the idea of having to talk to you guys and stuff. But me on the other hand, I'm happy. I am totally happy with everything you guys have done and the fact that you put this together and just like you said, just putting all the facts in order, in a, in a spot that's recorded forever, you know, that's there.

All everything you've done for us is good medicine. It only makes us better and helps us to carry on. The Zuber family has carried on despite everything that's happened to them. In March, they gathered their neighbors and friends in downtown St. Helens for a dinner. They were starting a scholarship fund and Sarah's name. It's 430, where we supposed to start something at 430, and then start a coffee. Okay. Seven long tables filled a little room next to

and cutting up carrot sticks. It didn't take long for the room to fill in.

Randy and Rebecca welcomed every person who came in. There were the Fafauds people, Jennifer Massey. There were admins of different Facebook groups. People we'd met and people we hadn't. Everyone noticed pretty quickly the two people sitting in the corner with the microphone. We have no use paper out here and we need a representation. I'm so glad you're here. As everyone settled in, Randy stood up at the front of the room.

“I always wanted to do this. It makes it feel important. It's not a movie. It's not a movie.”

Anyway, thank you friends, countrymen, neighbors. Some of you come from far away.

And so we've come from not for a way, but you, every one of you, I want you to know how much we appreciate you. And if you hear the support us and you're all very caring, you're the heart of your communities that people like you that show up and that put themselves out there and have compassion and love and kindness for your neighbors. That goes a long way. He ended the microphone after Rebecca, who had written a speech. So we thank you all for making

this event tonight possible and for participating in the kickoff of the Sarah's Uber Memorial Scholarship Foundation.

“Now all these years later, I see the importance of doing something to keep literally a memorial”

of the name Sarah's Uber. We love her so much. She is so alive to us. We know there will never be

another Sarah's Uber, but we can help others to achieve their dreams to further their own story. Who Sarah was not what happened to her. They wanted to nurture other kids like her, however they could. So they started this scholarship. It could send a kid to Europe, maybe help with college. This is the Uber's story. Sarah was just Sarah. Partsy, funny, girl who loved animals. Someone who joked around with her sisters all the time.

Oh, yeah, check it out. Sarah was someone who walked around, St. Helens, with her friends, wearing a minion head. We're just a lonely group of minions on a long and windy road. Quite tiring. The road full of practice. Demon's out, bro. She was a good student, a night owl, a board teenager who made videos of mundane things. I have nothing to watch on Netflix, so you know I'll just take off my brother and watch

anime. If you've ever lost someone in a tragic way, I think it's normal to mine every memory you have of them looking for some mist clue, any sign of the end, something that was maybe

“always there and you just missed it. But then eventually, you have to separate your memories from”

the tragedy. See that person for how they lived, not how they died. You know, it was pretty awesome. I didn't even say pretty cool. Is that I love you? Sarah was someone who didn't give herself to everyone, but when she did, it stuck with you. That's who the zippers are trying to remember. The teenager who's on the cusp of figuring out what kind of person she was going to be. The person who's love was irreplaceable.

[Music] Hushes reported written and produced by me, Leia Sittilly and Ryan Hass, music by Joe Preston. Our editors were Sage Van Wings and Anna Griffin. Steven Craig mixed this episode, and the Lean Silva was our audio engineer. Our show art is by Dana Ryerson, photography by Christina Wents Graff. Additional art and marketing guidance from Van Kooley and Jennifer McCormick.

records assistance from John Bial. Website production for this series by Suk Jot Saw.

“Thanks to Johnny Audinland, Peter Frick Wright, Jen Chavez, and Tony Shick for helping shape”

this series. Thanks to all the members who make podcasts at OPB possible. Visit the hush homepage

on OPB's website at OPB.org/hush. You can also email us with tips for future reporting

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