Episode 672: Gary Ridgway : Redux Part II - The Aroma of Tacoma

Let's run the cannon for some started.

[music playing] [music playing] [music playing] [music playing] [music playing]

[music playing] [music playing] [music playing] [music playing] [music playing]

[music playing] [music playing] [music playing] [music playing]

It's a simple place to be at.

getting back in the Gary. - As your old Gary was different than your new Gary, right? Very much so. - Yeah, I think it's like, yeah, we, right? - Yeah, we, well, it's people coming at Gary, we would do in that gold. Gary, we peep in the Gary. - Yeah. - And now it's nice because, really is the Stephen Rude of it all, really comes around.

“- Yes. - When you watch him. - Yeah. - Because he's got literally, you, truly. The way I would describe him is that, remember that little cute bunny puppet from Muppets, the one that was in Muppets Christmas Town.”

It's like he, he could be bean bunny. He's got bean bunnies face surrounded by a rapist. - Yeah. - He's so weird. He's been to see how, and the longer he talks, he's like, you, he had a killer, you had a killer. - We haven't seen bean bunnies quite some time. - I, I don't know what bean bunnies looks like, was Jim Henson inspired by the crimes of Gary Ridgeway to create bean bunnies.

- Was bean bunny a thief of clitoris. - Oh, yeah, sure. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - He was, I saw his belt. - Oh, he was just bunny, but I'm gonna clip, good, he was clean.

- Well, I've realized that guys in the left, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Marcus Parks, I'm here with Clip Cutter, Henry's of Browsky. - Hey, my goal is to live a mostly whole. I'm just taking off the top. And I'm a cletchider. The glue. Yeah, the the the the pola the shoe polish boy of clatorist is everywhere. It's a larson. All right, let me get it I leave my long I'll come anywhere near him. It's called a clet walker I start what where's the goddamn door? And we're here at Gary Ridgeway part two

So when we last left the man who will become one of the most prolific serial killers in American history

“I don't know why I got into the I think because I was things like hey, this is a KPM FX FM”

Like we're getting a Gary here today Getting back to Gary. We're going to listen to Gary Newman. This one goes out to all you green river killer south Call the kids call or get the call or get the call get me whoever's coming to the me that me. I'm the one. I'm the one who's a killer to me. Oh, no, it's a coming to town next week call. To the call like it's tickets. Make sure you use that lotion. Thank you M. D. C. Day. The Gary. Yeah, yeah, the good quicky. Thank you. Tongue them in many.

Oh, we last left the man who would become one of the most prolific serial killers in American history. Gary Ridgeway had just bought a house near C. T. Air port in an area called the strip lucky located between Seattle and Tacoma, Washington. The strip had become the most likely place for a man to find the Pacific Northwest. Most vulnerable and desperate sex workers giving Gary Ridgeway a house in the middle of this area was to turn a phrase putting the cat amongst the pigeons. Now, the year was 1982. And by Gary's 33rd birthday, he had not only married and divorced twice, but it also obtained numerous girlfriends in the times in between.

He definitely has a Rick Moranis like charm. There was a celebrity who would directly compare Gary Ridgeway to it is Rick Moranis. What's the guy who quit because his wife died? Well, actually, that's checking out. Physically. Gary had pulled all this off despite his below average intelligence and his increasing addiction to sex workers. But with each failed relationship, Gary's hatred towards women had only been added to the animosity he'd felt as a result of his absolutely horrendous mother who had spent Gary's teenage years scrubbing his genitals and screaming insults every time Gary had wet the bat.

Of course, it made him think that all women were monsters. And while Gary was entirely unsure as to whether he began strangling sex workers prior to 1982 because of how fuzzy his memory could be, it is generally accepted that 1982 is when Gary's reign of terror as the green river killer would truly begin. Within just two short years, almost 50 women would be dead by Gary Ridgeway's hand.

“I remember that I just was watching a chunk of his confessions. I was trying to find as much of his confessions as I could.”

And one section he talks about how his dad and his mom used to openly argue in front of him about what level of mentally handicapped he was and they would sit there and be like,

"I know, I know what I am, I know what level, I know what level you don't know, you don't know what I am."

“And he's just building it all up just being like, "Everybody's because he can't keep up."”

Yeah, that's where he fucked up. He almost got out of go have to go to school. Dude, do you use it every time a man? So yeah, I'm a stupid for it. I'll copy the fucking Einstein or the short bus, dude. We get all that fucking crush it and fucking mentally handicapped school. I was thinking about this after you mentioned it last week. And the way he is so baffled by life by everything, it's sort of how regular person is baffled by quantum mechanics. I'm fascinated by it and I would love to understand it, but I can't. I'm just not smart enough for it.

Yeah, he's that with reading and writing and driving and everything but killing prostitutes and detail in a car when he specifically told what to do. Yes. Yes. Now, Gary got in a taste for sex workers while he was stationed in the Philippines with the Navy during the Vietnam War. He's a great apple sour taste. And Gary only continued his addiction since his return to the States by picking up sex workers. Off the streets of the Seattle Tacoma area. Gary's usual routine was to pick up a girl after getting off work. It can work trucking. His preferred schedule was the early morning shift 7 a.m. to 3 p.m.

But Gary wrong way, as his coworkers often call them, he often had to work overtime because he had a habit of using the wrong kind of paint, which often required him to redo the entire job.

But even though Gary was bad at instructions, he was fantastic at auto detailing just so long as he knew the exact specifications. So, because Gary was already involved in the senior side of C Tech due to his sex worker addiction, he began doing paint jobs for bikers on the side of a party house belonging to a biker named RJ Wilson during the spring and summer of 1982. How did nobody call them blinkers? He would be such a good blinkers.

Like goddamn a blinkers. Blinkers is way too cute for the people he was hanging out with.

“Yeah, I think that with these, we don't know what they call them. You know they had several horrible names for them.”

Well, wrong way, Gary's the one we'll talk about in the show. Yeah, that's a work. The bikers. We don't know what the bikers call them. I got a couple of options. People John didn't even know it was real name.

And during these parties, we're Gary would paint trucks and bikes. The bikers would disappear into the bedrooms of RJ's house or into the old abandoned barn on RJ's property to apply the sex worker's trades. This was fine with RJ because in true scummy biker form, RJ would allegedly follow these drunken couples wherever they might have their sexual rendezvous. And he would take photos or film their escapades with what I assume was an old Super 8 camera. I looked it up. The VHS camcorder didn't come on the market until 84.

Yeah, and then to the VHS, what can't quite get the sounds of a dry prostitute's vagina get stabbed with a knife. The way that a Super 8 camcorder didn't have a boom, boom Mike. Yeah, this is back in the days. Hurrah. Hurrah. Hurrah. Point the camera over here.

That was all of my family videos. God damn it, Kathy. What are you doing? That was okay. It's screaming.

“Now this is obviously already a chaotic and dangerous environment for a woman to navigate.”

But until I 1882, Gary Ridgeway decided to increase the danger after meeting a sex worker named Wendy Cofield. After meeting Wendy, Gary said that he immediately planned to murder her. Partly because he was already upset that day because his wallet had recently been stolen. And he just couldn't get that 80 bucks that he'd lost out of his head. When he dollars, I could take 30 mate.

But 80 A. That's four blow jobs. I'm not going to receive it. Yeah, that's the hardest part. Is the blow job that you know aren't common now? You see Gary thinking of things in terms of CDs.

How many CDs could I buy with that? Like three CDs. And they're actually his person into that because he does talk about it in terms of sex jobs. There's very often where he was just like in the actual confessions. He would be like, and that was four blow jobs.

Yes, four blow jobs. Wow. So I nailed it. Yep. Congrats.

You really get him. Yeah, you're really gotten his head. Oh God.

No, well, it's never been confirmed.

Gary claims that he was not the only man involved in this first murder or this first confirmed murder at least.

the biker who owned the party house, RJ Wilson. He was also present at the moment that Gary took his first confirmed victim. By Gary's recollection, RJ was standing nearby and he was taking pictures of Gary in windy while they were having sex. But at some point, Gary began strangling windy with such rage that he ended up breaking her arm. RJ, I suppose, just stood by and watched.

Possibly just walking away after Gary was done.

RJ's existence has actually never been confirmed.

Because by the time Gary was finally caught decades later, no one named RJ Wilson lived in the Seattle Tacoma area. He was either dead, run off, or he was a figment of Gary's imagination. Or, Gary get the name wrong. He had your favorite possible.

His name was J.R. Billson. I mean, he can't figure it out. I mean, he's probably a biker who was killed eventually. If I were to guess, you know, it seems like that.

“He might have been the guy who would like, because he helped him dispose of the body, right?”

No, he didn't. He wore told him what to do, maybe. Maybe. You know, it's this guy who knows how to dispose of a body. He might be the one who really trained him.

Let's just say a guy who spends most of his free time taking super eat film of his buddies having sex with various sex workers.

Let's just say that's not the first time you've seen one

could strangle the deaf on camera. And I also think that that's when he's doing that. It's just we're not. Well, I'm going to have to put this in the other drawer. Anyway, as he's filming it, but I could definitely see that guy

just dying super anonymously. Yeah. Oh, yeah, just booze. Just running off the highway.

“Has anybody who's ever done, because there's many of those guys.”

Many, it's like a whole genre of old film is just stag films and stuff of your, I'll be like two grandparent cornhole and each other and all. It's kind of shit.

So it's like there's been lots of artists.

Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, I saw that one. He's like, oh, we got tape over this one. Yeah. Yeah.

They came over with, which was nice. Unfortunately, the challenger launch. Which was like, I thought that would work. No, whether RJ was real or not. It was up to Gary to get rid of the body.

So Gary traveled to a point on the nearby green river. The green river had a current that was too strong for swimming. But the same thing that made it dangerous for recreation, also made it perfect for taking away a body. It gives it sense for me to paint with the colors of the wind.

So Gary took Wendy Cofield's corpse down to the river. And Gary remembered crying as he knelt on the river bank with the body across his lap. He said that he was so angry and upset at what he'd done. And some part of him was hoping that he would be found and caught right there

on the river bank. [Screams] [Screams] [Screams] [Screams]

[Screams] [Screams] [Screams] [Screams] [Screams]

That part, however, was apparently quite small and weak. Because the murder of Wendy Cofield marked the beginning of a two year long murder spree that seemingly had no bottom. Just like Gary richway. [Screams]

I could see him having no axe. I could see them. Oh, it's the board of a man. I mean Rick Morass. Cross the board. They're the same body. Rick Morass don't got a juicer on him. Oh, I've seen him. I can't even fuck barely nut. And while Gary claimed that he was incredibly upset about the murder of Wendy Cofield, that 10-Jove remorse went away quite quickly. Because Gary murdered his next victim, less than two weeks later. On July 17, Gary picked up a 17-year-old girl named Jezelle Loveworm, who was being pimped out by her older boyfriend.

That boy friend's name was Jake Baker, but he went by the absolutely terrible Star Wars Reject Street name of Jackback. He used to get my money. Oh, miss the stamp you picked up. Sure it wasn't Jake Baker. Jake Baker sounds a little better. Jake Baker sounds much better, but it was spelled Jackback.

“Yeah, I think it might be Jake Baker but still. Yeah, I mean they didn't. If it was Jake Baker, they would have spelled a Jake Baker, but they spelled it Jackback.”

Both are equally stupid. Missed to give you my back air. Nice to drop you up by the highway where me found ya. Gary later boasted after his arrest that while he was murdering Jezelle Loveworm with his own socks, which he tied together to use as a ligater. Gary's young son Matthew was actually in the car, but Gary had committed the murder outside beyond the site of a young boy. Love those walkmen. This was before the switch. I've seen the effect it just has on hold and you could fucking drive a truck through his house.

He's been like that for years. I mean, you remember him sitting there playing the 3DS playing fucking Phoenix right attorney at law on hinges going abjection abjection.

It was obvious that Gary Ridgeway had found his thing, but the police had not yet noticed. Gary's second victim had been dumped near the airport and wouldn't be found until September.

While his third victim, Deborah Bonner, would likewise rot in the green river for weeks before her body was found on August 12.

“So you have to Gary picked up Deborah from the three bears motel, just south of C.T. Airport. He strangled her and sent her body away the same way he'd sent when he caught field.”

Weeks later, Bonner's corpse was spotted by a guy who worked at a nearby meat company. I guess he was on a break wandering the banks and he saw the naked body caught by the tree branches in the rivers flow. I didn't do that one. I actually like meat company would be a good name for a strip club or a brothel. That's a male dance. That's a male company. They've gotten so big that they can swing. I find it gratuitous.

The green river over the following days, and they'd all been put there by Gary Ridgeway. Two bodies in the water have been discovered by a man rubber rafting down the green river. He'd spotted the murky vision of two bodies.

“Pinned to the riverbed by forty pound rocks.”

This had been Gary's attempt to hide the bodies underwater after the last two had been, of course, caught on debris spotted and found because Gary did not want people to find these bodies.

But after a detective came out to the scene and was taking photos of the bodies, the detective accidentally tripped over a third.

What a living! Got the sick! Got the sick of this! Stop it on! Stop it on! Stop it on! Stop it on! Stop it on! Stop it on! This is the one we're looking for! It's a Gary, a decided that this spot was a good dumping ground because all three of these women have been picked up and strangled to death within a period of roughly two weeks. While Gary had put in the effort to weigh down the first two bodies with rocks, the third had been simply left in the tall grass next to the riverbank.

Where the corpse was found only after detective Dave Reikert tripped and fell over it. This, of course, would not be the last Wopsie doodle of Dave Reikert's career when it came to the green river killer. I don't think it's fair for you all to count how many Wopsie doodles and how many Dipsie doodles and how many Wopsie doopsies I did in this case. I did everything by the book and by that book it was the book of offensive jokes by father left in the bathroom.

“And as 99 Shazans and one Wopsie doodle and all they remember is the Wopsie doodle.”

Now concerning Gary and rocks, Gary Ridgeway experimented with rocks in those early days in a way that he had never done before and never really dead afterward.

For reasons that are even unclear to Gary himself, he inserted triangular rocks into the vaginas of some of his early victims, wedging them in so tightly that they could only be removed with post-mortem surgery. Now that information was kept out of the press, so the cops would know if they had their man if anyone tried to confess. But when Gary was later asked why he put the rocks in the vaginas, he couldn't give a clear answer other than it was his biker buddy RJ's idea. He told me to go kick rocks, unfortunately they were close to their vagina.

He was taking me to par three. When Gary was asked a second time though, because the RJ thing didn't really wash, he tried using his p-brain to figure out the psychology saying that it was maybe symbolic to keep the woman from having sex with anyone else, even though he inserted the rocks only after the women were already dead. But when it detected pressed and asked if Gary had thought of doing this before he actually did it, Gary had to admit that it was just an idiotic childish impulse. Saying quote.

Yeah. I thought of it just when I got there at six. There's a rock. I'll put it in her vagina. Direct quote.

He, everything, he's, he's truly so puzzled by what he does. Yeah. And this is, it's all sexual play. Because he talks about before he was talking about his sexual impulses for his mother, right?

I think he wanted her to do the most was that she was laying there, sun-maving with her titties hanging out of the side of her fucking dress. So he could watch, right? Because they were super close. He, oh, had this fantasy about being able that she would be asleep laying there and he would be up to the do whatever he wants.

“Because like, the therapist was asking him, like, what would you want to do to your mother?”

Like, what do you want to do? He wants to explore the parts of her, make her woman explore woman that parts, explore her breasts, explore her legs or vagina. And it's like, the way he's just talking about it's the same thing. He just wanted to get, because these are what he calls even himself, his starter murders. Yeah.

This whole, this first pack of like a dozen were a part of him figuring out his own ways of why he's doing this.

Like, it's him just playing out the wonderful sexual fantasies. He has about his mother, which is what we just do, but you just kind of put it in sort some of the girls you day. I mean, we, you know what I mean? I'm just trying to force me, you know? You think he was just playing with all the bodies after he killed them?

Um, we know for a fact he fucked some of them. Yeah, some of them. Yeah, he would come back. And I can almost care on tea that the reason why. I'm curious too. Thank you. Thank you. I could, if there's that the reason why two of them were weighed down and wasn't one wasn't,

because he was revisiting the third one that wasn't weighed down. I, I don't know. I wouldn't guarantee that. I think it might have been laziness.

Who knows, but we know he liked a fiddle and fettle.

We do. We do, but those two that were in the water, those were the last two that Gary ever really tried to, like, hide in such a way and put any real effort into it other than, you know, shove him off a hill. Now the difficult task of catching a serial killer only gets harder when the victims are sex workers. Besides just the general lack of urgency police have when it comes to solving sex worker murders,

there's also the issue of identifying the bodies. See, this was the early 80s when people could still disappear into this country if they really wanted to. And the warm water of the green river had caused a lot of skin slippage on the victims, which made identification even more difficult. The hand and finger skin on the victims had loosened so much during decomposition that it slipped off the corpses like a glove.

And the pathologist had to remove the skin and put their own hands into the human husks to take fingerprints. Wow, that's both horrible and you can see the right guy just being like, "Let's fucking off." And then when I get to do, like, you know, like, "That's the pro-social Gary Ridgeway." So they hired a Gary Ridgeway who then works for science.

“That's what you call as a man with patience.”

Yeah, you wait for it to come to you. Yeah, and when the body sits in the water for that long in the summer, like, I don't know what happens with the skin, but I know that the muscle in the fat, like, starts to, like, become squishy and stuff like that. Yeah, and the only reason I know this is because my uncle, he collected bodies and nom.

And then we were watching when we were soldiers one day, you know, the milkips and nom movie. And you know the scene where they try to get the guy out of the river, but he was named Pomp and they like, they take all the skin off his legs. He was like one time I found a man in the river, and I went to go grab him by his legs, and I put my hands around his legs,

and then it just went straight to the bone. And you're just like, "Why don't we turn on baby skin?" [laughter] I was just happy, it wasn't making fun of me. [laughter]

It does seem like that conversation was bereft of the F word that I was imagine was probably part of his regular conversation. [laughter] But I think that the muscle is soft enough.

“I think that's why the skin kind of loosens up a little bit.”

You know, because everything underneath gets, you know, loses form. Guys, I'm hungry. Sorry, I'm just thinking about all I'm thinking about, is delicious delicious, stewed beef. Like slow cooked, young young at the Delta Lounge.

Yeah. Eat before the show. I know. Got to. But even though the press had picked up the story,

and it officially named these women as victims of the newly dubbed Green River Killer, the police were not putting their best foot forward when it came to the overall investigation. According to a chief investigator for the Washington State Attorney General's Office, a guy named Robert Keppel, the police work was woefully lacking

when it came to the follow-up that usually resulted in a rest, even though the manpower was available.

See, after the first four bodies were found,

and the story made it to the press in August of 1982, Keppel was one of 25 men who were brought in as a part of the official Green River Task Force. But despite the number of officers working the case, they would still spin their wheels for decades

before finally finding Gary Ridgeway. A couple discovered after he was brought in to consult on this case,

only a quarter had been eliminated despite the existence of real leads.

“Today, we know that one lead pointed directly to Gary Ridgeway,”

and had that lead been pursued back then, Gary would have been caught after just five murders, as opposed to the 50-plus he ended up with in the end. So even though the bodies had been found in the water, the clothing, the ones who were still partially closed,

they were covered in microscopic dots of industrial paint that had coincidentally been manufactured by, you know, our old friends, the DuPont company. Probably happy about it. Oh, yeah, they're like, "Let me use the game."

You could put this paint on you. Kill a woman, put her in the river. It will stay on her for a year. It's just a fact right now to be insensitive here, but this is just a testimony to the paint.

So DuPont guarantee, you can't buy this kind of press.

But the mere fact that we know that it was DuPont paint, that point stores the fact that this stuff was extremely traceable. The paint had been transferred from Gary's work clothes, because Gary often picked up women right after he clocked out,

“and the only company in the entirety of Washington State”

that used this variety of DuPont paint was Gary's company, can worth trucking. Had the police followed up on the paint lead, they would have discovered Gary's affinity for sex workers. They would have found out about his past arrest

for assaulting a sex worker in 1980. They would have known that his co-workers were already jokingly calling him "G.R." But coincidentally, same initials in Gary Ridgeway and Green River. Let's also just say, Gary wrong way,

and you guys are all calling him the Green River Killer. That makes a lot of sense. It's like a funny, awful stuff. It's like funny job stuff. Yeah, I mean, you definitely be a him going like,

yeah, yeah, I do that for you. I paint an orange. And they're like, "Yeah, I bet he's calling a lot of press." [laughter] No, it started as then just calling them "G.R."

“Eventually, they would cause like, "Here comes Green River Gary."”

[laughter] I didn't appreciate the nickname. I mean, I didn't even understand. Just kind of putting them to the scene. I didn't even think those words that are your mouth.

So one of those, he's just understood. Maybe he's kind of dying. Sometimes we each have the meaning somebody to see how valuable he is. [laughter] You know, when your friends make funnier,

but you know it's true, what they're saying. But you still, but it still makes you mad. It's shut up, I don't get it. Shut up, shut up. Shut up.

Shut up. [laughter] But the paint evidence would sit on the bat burner for years. For reasons that are still murky. Lazyness and hatred of sex workers.

Sure. And I bet there's a little bit of stupidity. Yeah. Just a little bit. And this is all while police spent most of their resources in those early days.

Half-heartedly interviewing every Pimp and John in the sea-tech region. Everyone, of course, besides Gary Ridgeweb. [laughter] [laughter] Can you do more Jamaican?

[laughter] After it was reported in the press that Gary's first body farm on the Green River had been found, Gary was smart enough to know that it would probably be a good idea to dump his further corpses anywhere besides the Green River. Using his knowledge to the woods at the Pacific Northwest,

Gary moved towards roadside rural dump sites, places close to highways and interstates. Mostly Gary looked for steep-witted inclines, so he could shove the bodies off the edge and add a site as quickly as he could. As far as how Gary chose his victims, Gary developed a sort of pattern.

After driving up to a woman on the street to ask her if she was dating, Gary would name a sex act and wave a bunch of cash.

Flash and a wad, however, never worried Gary,

because he knew that he would always get the money back in the end. After the Green River, he'd be so good at fucking. [laughter] I've got to pay you! As with every sex workers like that, always.

But after the Green River killer story hit the press, Gary found that most women would straight up ask him if he was the Green River killer. Like they'd ask John, hey, you got to tell me if you're the Green River killer. [laughter] Gary would almost always respond with quote.

[inaudible] [inaudible] [laughter] Genius. Well, usually the woman would just shrug and respond by saying,

"I guess not." Well, he had a very specific mechanism. So there actually was a couple of truly specific

That was he would specifically look for younger girls. Yes.

“Like he would look for girls that were a little greener.”

Not seasoned. Not seasoned. He would look for greener girls. Girls that were set up in the scene. Girls that weren't in the scene. Girls that weren't in the scene. He would also sometimes.

Physically weaker too. Yes. He would also sometimes visit the same girl a couple of times and then she'd become a victim so she'd get used to him. Another thing he would do much like having a son in the car is that he would leave his son's toys

in the front seat and leave him around and he'd when they'd come into the car. So one thing he'd do is show them his license and he would cover his name with the license and then right next to the license.

This is how interestingly savvy he was. He was thinking about it all the time. Why show the license? Because what he would do is he'd have a picture of a son in the wallet when he'd open it.

So you'd see him in his son and you'd see him with a license and they'd immediately think, "Oh, he's a dad." You know, and so that is one of those things that Mary Allen O'Toole would eventually get the confessions out of Gary Ridgeway.

She wrote an interesting book that's all about how your instincts are wrong. It is very interesting. It's like stuff like that.

“Just because he portrays himself in one way”

doesn't mean he can't be nine other ways. And going on on the other side if they didn't respond

with the QC family man stuff, he always had beer

in his truck and he always had a carton of cigarettes. And he'd give a pack of cigarettes to every sex worker. And other girls would give them past. So girls that he would sleep with that he didn't kill. They'd be like, "Oh, that's Gary."

We know Gary. Now while some women were strangled inside Gary's truck, others were killed outside on a blanket Gary always carried with them. Other times though, Gary would take advantage

of his home's proximity to the strip. He said that he always had his victims washed their genitals in the shower while he watched prior to sexual congress if he took him home.

Which was I suppose some sort of weird mirrored what Gary's mother did with him when he went the bed. Speaking of wetting the bed, Gary would also ask the women to urinate before sex. Specifically, so they wouldn't be as likely

to wet the bed themselves upon the moment of their untimely and violent death. It's crazy because they searched his house at one point, didn't they? And then still let him go?

“He was actually very good at getting rid of evidence.”

Yeah. He was very, because that's the that he was entirely unsentimental about everything. And that's usually what gets guys caught. They keep the trophies, they keep the little things

here and there.

Gary wanted it all gone always

because it was all about the process for him. That was the only thing that mattered. As far as how he killed them, Gary insisted on sex from behind if they were outside. This was so he could easily grab the women's hair

with one hand and put his other arm around her neck in a chokehold. But strangling humans is an arduous task that always takes far longer than you'd think. So when one of Gary's arms got tired from strangling,

he'd sometimes have to switch while wrapping his legs around his victims' bodies so they couldn't escape. As far as why Gary choked every single victim, he said he never used a gun or a knife

because it was more personal and rewarding to strangle them with his hands or a ligature. Use that word, rewarding. And let's mess. Yeah, he would probably kept them from getting caught.

Yeah. Now the ligatures were simply a matter of expediency. Sometimes he used articles of clothing belonging to the victims, but he also used towels, belts, extension cords,

ropes, socks, jumper cables, and sometimes his own t-shirt. But once Gary was done, specifically with the victims, he killed in his own home. And this also helped a lot with getting rid of the evidence.

He had a method for clean-up. He covered his bed in the aforementioned viscreen plastic sheeting. And after the murder, Gary would simply drag the bodies along with all the evidence

out to the truck on the plastic sheet before loading them up and immediately taking the body to the dump site. So wedding the bed taught him how to get rid of a body thought dirty as bad.

Hey, welcome's crazy. That is the way.

You never know where knowledge comes from.

Yeah, I used things on the show. The man, you would believe where I got it from. Yeah, you know where pants were. I wear my fucking shirts with like dick balls hang out on my pants, my neck hole.

Or for me to easily piss and shit. When I'm driving on the car. Yeah, yeah. Those are sweaters. You're wearing upside down.

You're welcome. Yeah. Yeah. And you learn that. Which you're not sure.

You're your rapper. Peter suckler. Part of what made Gary so hard to catch. Police lazyness notwithstanding was the fact that he didn't care about the age, race, or appearance of his victims.

While most serial killers have a type, Gary Ridgeway only cared that his victim was a woman. She had been found walking outside. No, inside ladies. No, he was hated inside ladies.

That's Gary Ridgeway once put it. He compared the streetwalkers of the strip to quote.

It's such between August 29th and December 3, 1982.

“Gary Ridgeway would kill another eight women before dumping the bodies all over the”

Seattle Tacoma area. By September, though, police thought that they had found the green river killer. But detective Dave Reichert, the whipsy do man who had tripped over the body earlier in the story. He had all the wrong instincts at just about every turn for years.

This man's got to be at least seven feet tall. Three arms. Yeah. I know, for a fact that he must work within a cabal of sex workers trying to eliminate the competition.

Tell me what you know about alien grace. With detective Reichert became convinced that the killer was a former ambulance and taxi driver named Melvin Foster. Someone bring me goddamn Melvin. Nice buzzer with a wa.

I got damn Melvin. I hate guy. Melvin had approached the green river task force with psychological theories on the green river killer's motives. When the task force asked Melvin where he'd gained such psychological expertise, Melvin said

that he'd take it a couple of psychology courses in prison. So they'd better listen to what he had to say if they wanted to catch his green river fella.

I don't think or two about killed sex workers and I thought they could first see.

You got to use five. We'll see. First part is probably right. Yeah. Well.

That's incredible. Yeah. You probably said, but I bet he was James Gary. But he was Gary and I bet you weren't. I card detailed.

The detective record can be somewhat forgiven for assuming that Foster was the killer. Because it wasn't uncommon for serial killers to insert themselves into an investigation. Ed Kimper had done that just a few years earlier. Furthermore, Melvin Foster had personally known several of the sex workers who had been killed. I don't want to know.

Anyway, but I know him. They were friends. Reds and well-wishers. So from late 1982 until the summer of 1983, the green river task force put such a focus on Melvin Foster that Melvin ended up filing complaints against detective day record for harassing him 132 times.

He had him followed. He tapped his phone. He tampered with his mail. But while the task force was harassing Melvin Foster, they were also bringing in the big guns in the early months of 1983. All while bodies kept popping up and women kept going missing off the streets.

To help catch the green river killer, the task force involved the FBI's behavioral science unit. And specifically, they enlisted the help of legendary profiler, John Douglas. In 1983, John Douglas was at the absolute peak of his career. He'd already finished his groundbreaking interviews with 36 convicted killers.

“The so-called "Mine Hunter" talks, which he would publish in a book, and I think 95.”

Douglas, by that point, means he'd already interviewed Kemper. He'd interviewed Berkowitz, Manson, Bondi, Gacy. But what had really put Douglas over the top was the creation of a profile in 1981 that had assisted police in the investigation in arrest at the man convicted for the Atlanta child murders. Wayne Williams. She Douglas had been instrumental in convincing investigators in Atlanta that they were looking for a black guy, because investigators had convinced themselves that the killer was white.

That's where all that they were going around every neighborhood in Atlanta saying, asking like, "Where are there any white guys talking to black kids?" Yeah, because they stand up. Yeah, and it's the time when white people were going a lot black people themselves. We'll also just straight up white guys are the ones to do the type of sexual crime towards children more often than not in terms of the profile. Yeah, well, that's incorrect.

We know that's incorrect. That was the one who got caught because a lot of times, if a sex worker was black, their murderers not can investigate it at all. It's a lesson. Yeah, DNI. Yeah, DNI, exactly.

And of course, we know that serial killers often kill within their own race, so black serial killers were less likely to be caught because the murders they committed were less likely to be investigated. Douglas also told investigators in Atlanta to stake out bodies of water where it was easier to get rid of physical evidence. And these tips eventually led to the arrest of Wayne Williams. Then Douglas gave prosecutors tips on how to break Wayne Williams on the stand.

“This resulted in Williams revealing not only his hatred for children of his own race, but also Williams knowledge concerning the best way to choke someone until they passed out.”

It's not something you want to say on the stand in your own murder trial.

Honestly, he should have been on the stand in the first place.

Yeah, Wayne's mistakes came as a direct result of Douglas's guidance.

And we will eventually cover Wayne Williams, but also the idea that Wayne Williams was not alone.

“Yeah, I think that Wayne Williams was was one of several killers operating at the time.”

And one of the killers is definitely some KKK guy that was using the Wayne Williams crimes as a smoke screen as well. Now as far as the greener of a killer went, yeah, it's real happy. Yeah, I was just thinking like, I actually stopped myself from saying, Cool. In our generation cool is the same thing as interesting.

Yeah, it's fascinating. As far as the greener of a killer went, John Douglas was not as useful as he was during the Atlanta child murders. Douglas believed that the killer could be a cop or someone impersonating a cop. Did somewhat job with anonymous notes sit to the team.

One note had claimed that the killer was a former police officer known only as Tonto because this Tonto had often picked up under age sex workers while he was on duty.

So the wrong lines of investigation were being pursued again and again, even though the paint evidence was still just fucking sitting there waiting to be discovered. Probably should have arrested Tonto anyway. Yeah, I think the killer is awesome. Find this Tonto file.

Douglas heard that's hard when you're a real lone ranger. Douglas also abroniously said that the killer had been raised by a single mother, but he did nail that the killer had been raised by a domineering nagging mother. And he did guess that the killer had been a subpar student in school. Douglas also guessed that the killer believed that women couldn't be trusted.

The rage, the killer felt particularly towards women who openly prostituted themselves. Douglas guessed this caused the killer to rationalize that he was doing a service to mankind by removing these women from society. Douglas also said that this guy worked in manual labor and that he was a beer drinker in a smoker. This of course resulted in an utterly useless profile because there were tens of thousands of men who hated women working in manual labor, spending their nights smoking and drinking in bars across the Pacific Northwest.

“I think most of them have built to the most of the biggest buildings and bridges.”

I think I'm this great country of art. Very popular view. That's also not to mention the fact that Gary didn't smoke and he only drank beer on occasion. Do you think that he liked classic rap? And Benny liked big tits small but some Benny liked looking at the stars and I bet he also like fire and a guy.

You know we got here a real sandwich eater. Yeah. I want to love the sandwich. He goes into a tire restaurant and he's eating spaghetti. But if he goes into a Japanese restaurant he's eating what's there.

No one I'm thinking of thinking he's a guy like sneakers. But also and loafers would get out maybe pants and probably wears pants. And I have no winter sometimes in the summer depending on the sunshine. Well, part of the reason my investigators were trying to narrow their scope is because the Pacific Northwest had an incredible amount of homicides to solve. Even outside of what Gary Ridgeway was doing.

See Gary wasn't even close to the only guy who was murdering women in the sea tech area in the early 80s. Pire to the killing spree that Gary began in July of 1982. A large number of women have been found murdered in the Seattle Tacoma area in a variety of ways. It's like trying to start a true crime podcast in 2026. The market's crazy saturating.

It's crazy because like growing up on the east coast always look at like Washington as a bunch of fucking pussy.

He didn't do anything, but it's like no they're murdering. We're about to get into a holy fucking shit with the Pacific Northwest so incredibly violent. But most of these victims were sex workers who'd been either strangled, beaten, or stabbed a death. And because they were considered among the last dead, those murders were not investigated further, at least not in any meaningful way.

“So why were there so many violent deaths in the Seattle Tacoma area during this time?”

We can even extrapolate this question and ask why there were so many murders, rapes, assaults, and serial killings across the entirety of the United States throughout the 70s, 80s, and 90s. The weather? Honestly, I don't even know what it was. I have to believe it was the no-man's land of Oreo Speedwagon running the audio wave. It means like one of the low points of American culture.

Have we ever looked at the effect of Todd Rungren's production? Yeah, it's just all new. Can we look at it? Well, for the final answer to the serial killer question, it is time for us to discuss murder land by Caroline Frazier. Well, we're going to go a little surface level on our explanation here.

I would highly recommend reading this book if you want the nitty gritty yet highly readable details on how all the shit went down.

That is the fucking book for you.

So while Frazier certainly links her findings to the lead theory that leaded gasoline, caused the serial killer epidemic, she goes far beyond that theory. Although the causes discussed in Murderland are certainly still environmental and industrial. Now, while the scope of the theories in Murderland run across the entirety of America, there's a lot of focus on Tacoma Washington, because Tacoma is where both Gary Ridgeway and Ted Bundy spent their formative years.

Additionally, even though he wasn't a killer as far as we know, Charles Manson was also imprisoned on an island east of Tacoma for five years in the early 1960s. So Tacoma certainly has some bona fides when it comes to the world of mass murder.

Nevermind, scores of what seems to be uncaught serial killers that were happening in any area at the same time.

Yes, and Jimmy Hendrix really could murder that guitar.

“I mean, he definitely murdered the concept of taking a right hand guitar, making it left?”

Yeah, exactly. I mean, yeah, by the early 60s, yeah, Hendrix is he's already out in England by that point, I think. Oh, yeah, but as we're getting into the damage is done, and it wasn't as much Seattle as it was Tacoma. It could have just grown his dick. It may have, yet a notoriously large penis.

I've seen it. I have seen it as well. I think it makes you a better guitar player. Have an a large penis?

“Yeah, I should talk to my friend, if I don't.”

Now, thanks to American industrial powerhouse families, like the Vanderbilt's, the Rockefellers, the Guggenheims, and of course, the DuPont's, Tacoma, Washington was a hotbed of industry going all the way back to the late 19th century. There were no less than 53 industrial plants in the center of the city at its industrial peak. In the industrial smells of decomposition, putrefaction, and acidification, it created a staggering odor that was referred to as the aroma of Tacoma as early as 1901. Tacoma was such an industrial hellhole throughout the 20th century, that Frank Herbert used his hometown of Tacoma as inspiration when he wrote Dune in the 19th century.

inspiration when he wrote Dune in the 1960s because the plants were still producing millions of gallons of toxic waste every day that absolutely destroyed the environment and made poison out of the very air, Frank Herbert Breeze. I would love to find out the big fat guy that he based a barren on. Yeah, I wouldn't have who that guy was. Big fat guy. He was a big fat guy. He was a little

“gay man that was that he built that he based a barren on because that's gay and he pride. Yeah,”

I didn't realize so coma was that boring. It's pretty yeah. Dune. Dune. Dune. Dune. Dune. Dune. Dune. Dune. Dune. Dune. Dune. Dune. Yeah. Who did it? Dune. We just can't get the political entry. But it's in the waters around Tacoma. Nothing survives but barnacles. It's an app. I mean, it's just gone. Oh, it's gross. It's disgusting. Now the most agregis defender when it came to dumping industrial waste into the air, land and waters at Tacoma, I was a Tacoma smelting and refining company. Which posted a smoke stack that reached 307 feet into the air. Wow. This smelting plant focused

on the mining and processing of gold, silver, copper and lead starting in 1890. But everything about American industrialization became supercharged in the late 1930s and early 1940s as a result of World War II. See, it's a well-known fact that America helped win the war against the Axis powers because of our vast resources in our industrial might. But the consequences of our near-total industrialization during that war have often been ignored in the years since.

It was said that metal wins the war. And as we talked about in our series on the DuPont family, World War II was a war of chemicals and metal. The metal we produced in the United States as a part of the effort, the iron, the steel, the aluminum, the copper, and especially the lead. It dwarfed the levels of every other industrialized nation on earth. Yeah. Fuck yeah. Our role in World

War II as the provider of those metals was only made possible by the incredible amount of industrial

smelters that we were able to build and operate. And by running those smelters constantly, we overwhelmed the Axis powers with metal. The serial killer epidemic was basically America smelted and delted. Very smart. We smelted and delted to ourselves. Yeah. Those author Caroline Frazier put it, copper is the nervous system of a warring nation, because it's used in the wiring of every engine that ran every machine of war.

Copper is only usable after it's smelted, which required numerous smelting plants.

a mine. You've got to remove the copper from all of the other trace metals that are mixed in with it all the rock. That's what a smelter does. Oil it. Kind of. I don't really know the tell you how to mine. The gold comes from the mountain too. It's just like that.

“Honestly, you know what the truth is? It's that for so long. All of these things I didn't fully”

understand. I didn't understand that iron had to be made. It's still how to be made. The copper had

to be made. Like a kind of always thought like, "Hi, how can you get that stuff?" It just pulled

a pipe set of a mountain? Yeah. I'm certainly is great. Yeah, I'm not sure. I didn't just understand it. Okay, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is that you do have, and yeah, I mean, they're in line with the problem, because copper does not come out of the mountain, you know, in usable chunks, it has to be separated from all these other elements. And as we get it, we'll get into here in a second, those other elements include lead and arsenic.

And speaking of lead, that was used to manufacture an estimated 47 billion bullets for us and our allies between 1940 and 1945. And every one of them useful. Yeah. And so to overwhelm the

“access powers with metal, America turned towns like Baltimore, Philadelphia, Chicago, Cleveland,”

Detroit, and Tacoma into industrial powerhouses. One thing you may have noticed is that those

were also all cities that were considered incredibly violent in the second half of the 20th

century. Don't forget Newark, the railroad in Bay is still fucked. Yeah. No, Newark. Yeah, fucking uh, or what's the other a ca ca ca ca. Camden. Camden. And it was over across the river from Philadelphia. Yeah, you know, also uh, Rochester, where the hillside stranglers were a board, and so was another two other stuff across. Yeah. He was in board and Rochester, operated in Rochester, but the, uh, the four-cyro killers came out of Rochester, seeing things I can't take industrial

plant just dumping chemicals in the water. Yep. Which we learned to inside so his life. Yep. Very nice. Well, there are byproducts to industrialization of any sort. And those industrial plants that were built in cities across our country, they caused environmental devastation on, seriously,

a scale that has never before been seen on planet Earth. Every city was poisoned by the byproducts

of these factories during World War II, but it didn't stop after the Nazis, the Japanese and the Italians were defeated. There was far too much money being made. So many of these factories stayed in production for decades to supply the Cold War, which of course came immediately after World War II. Well, the key is you know, I mean, the main thing was the responsibility on the military to figure out the new war. Yeah. There we could get into in order to keep all these things going.

“So that's what I understand. Like when it comes down to it's like they're just trying to help.”

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I make the bullets you give me the war. That's all we got to do. So an industrialization effort began back in 1940 to put plants like the one in Tacoma in or near major American cities across most of the country. And as a result, the so-called greatest generation of serial killers begins exactly the same time. Exactly. The same time. Happy to 50 America. We gotta go through the lift for this 1940. Let's start there. It's before we're in it,

but it's after we started helping. That year saw the births of Clifford Olson and Samuel Liddell. I know those guys. Samuel Liddell. Number one, most prolific serial killer in American history. 1941, Richard Speck. Oh, that guy. That team's fun. 1942, Tekazinsky in John Wayne Gasey. Wow. 43 Rodney, Alkalah. Everybody's favorite. 45. That's the bumper gear. You get Dennis Raider, Randy Kraft, Leonard Lake,

Arthur Shaw Crawl. Wow. Ted Bundy, 1946. Herb Mullin, Otis Tool, Herb Mullin, William Bowenham. That's 1947. 1948, Ed Kemper. Wow. Then in 1949, you've got both Gary Ridgeway and Canada's Robert Picton, who was born and raised just north of Tacoma in Vancouver. So you get the picture here. But while these are all the big names that, you know, your average last podcast listener would recognize, you really only begin to see how

pervasive this problem was when you take the wider view. According to serial killer expert, Peter Bronsky, there were 55 known serial killers in the year 1940. 10 years later, there were 72. In 1960, 217. But when the men born during World War II begin to come of age in 1970, those numbers grow exponentially. Six hundred and five serial killers. Wow. We're so industrial.

There were no less than 768 known serial killers at the start of the Reagan era,

“which also saw the highest homicide rate period in American history. But in 1990,”

the number of serial killers started falling. 669, we're active that year. And that number dropped by almost half by the year 2000. As we entered the modern era, between 2010, 2020, there were only 117 active serial killers, which gets as close to the 1950 level. Because we're illuminating, you know, we don't hang out anymore. Yeah, that is not real.

Connection. Yeah. That's social media. Yeah. But that number is even more incredible

when you consider America's population growth. Back in 1950, there were only about 151 million Americans. Today, we've more than doubled that population, which puts us somewhere around 350 million. So, when you look at percentages, we're probably far below even 1940 levels when it comes to active serial killers. And that's because, you know, as we said, the loosening of assault rifle laws, I do believe that the getting access to giant machines of death that made

mass death in a public avenue super easy. And then that was the idea that then the mass death that you can commit. Like, now people are just doing spring murders and mass shooting events in order to get the attention that they so crave because again, no one goes out anymore. There's no third space. So hard to pick up. There's nowhere that kids can go to just mill about. They used to be like fun places where the kids go to mill about with no parents and you can scoop them stuff.

Yeah. Now, you've got no place to go with the Rinsei play and video games. Yeah, because back then they only had like a handful of street killers. Yeah, well, yeah, they were on run. Yeah, you had to start with it. Yeah, they were there. They were there, but that's only a couple of them. It's just sort of the type of crime is just sort of turned into something else, but it's not, but serial killing involves another level pathology that mass murder does not. It's like homework

“is involved. Yes. Well, and also the other thing you have to also realize that it's not just”

serial killing. It's not like all the stuff. Yeah. It's every kind of violent crime that you could possibly imagine. It's a domestic violence. Yeah, domestic. It grew the fucking roof at this point. Massive. It's fucking huge. Like every type of violent crime is at its fucking peak during the series, but this point, though. Yeah. I saw that. Well, the bikers that we talked about earlier, like how many fucking bite do you remember how many biker gangs they used to be? It was fucking

everywhere. That's Marlon Brando's fault. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we don't see it. We don't want to don't tell you. It's hitting with Australia. We don't deal with bikers as much anymore in the United States America as they're dealing with it in Canada in Australia. Yeah, they were like be careful to hell's angels. Really? Wow. When are we going to run into the hell's angels? No one said that to me ever. No one else I was thinking about earlier in the episode was how many serial killers

do you think like we're never caught and just died like in a drunk driving accident. Hundreds. Yeah.

Yeah. Hundreds upon hundreds of not thousands. Or guys in a killed one person. I feel like there's a lot of that too where guy will in a midst of many people committing crimes will commit all crime within this sphere and then kind of just drop off the face of the planet. Yeah. Because there's a pathology that has to exist to create a serial killer. Like there's like, you know, we they never come from nowhere. There's always something. Yeah. I have a lot of problems. It's a pile of

problems and it leads and usually these are them committing that first murder accidentally. They find they really like it and so they keep going. But there's also so many men during this time period who are committing a single murder accidentally. Yeah. Or not I wouldn't say accidentally let's say not not a pre-meditative murder. Like it's a moment of passion. They kill someone and then they just kind of have to live with that for the rest of their lives. Because they

“fucking murdered someone. Yeah. That's what I did. Yeah. That's it. Again, I still deal with that.”

Yeah. And I think that the guilty I feel is punishment enough. Yeah. Now there were copper smelters like the one in Tacoma located in cities all over the United States. And that copper was street with other metals and chemicals. The most consequential by products, as I said earlier, were arsenic and lead. And while the arsenic was- There's old lace come in. Well, the arsenic was in danger. A rich way used that strangle. You think you did?

You did a good work. Well, the arsenic was indeed a problem. I mean, it was the amount of arsenic that we used in pesticides all across the country that fucked up so many kids that fucked up so many fucked me up. I grew up in the middle of a fucking cotton field with crop dusters drop an arsenic and horrible shit on my house. You know, for the entirety of my childhood. Who knows the

fuck that did. But the Tacoma smelter also belched incredible amounts of lead into the air

in every direction, mixing it with arsenic every time the smelter coughed so to speak. These

entire town where the populace would breathe it, eat it, and drink it. Animals who let the white ash would subsequently collapse and die while the kids who breathe it got rashes and asthma amongst a wide array of intellectual and emotional disabilities. Yeah, and very high suicide rate in that part of the country. Very much so. Wow. I did actually didn't even put that together.

I didn't even think about the Pacific Northwest, the high suicide rate. It was always playing

was like, oh, yeah, it's the weather. What do you expect? Like, you know, well, it says fucking

“rainy weather, England. Yeah. Like, you're entirely, you're fucking England. Many places remember”

anyway. It rains every day in Florida. It's like one of Christ's types of weather. It's going to be because it's going to rain. Yeah. Now, the long-term effects that are known to come as a result of lead poisoning are the same things that we saw in Gary Ridgeway after his family moved to Tacoma. If you'll remember, Gary's behavior greatly escalated after his family moved to the Pacific Northwest. And while that was often blamed on the stress of the move, we can now see that the cause was

almost certainly his new exposure to the Tacoma smelting plant. Children exposed to high levels of

lead become cruel, unreliable, and impulsive. They're irritable, nervous, in a tent of and slow to learn. Sometimes they scream and bang their heads on surfaces. They're tortured with dreams that border on hallucinations. These kids also, if we go, may go back to the McDonald triad, they were more likely to set fires and wet the bed. These were both behaviors that greatly increased with Gary Ridgeway only after his family moved into the environmental imprint of the Tacoma

smelter, which unloaded 226 tons of lead into the air every year by 1960. In 1961, Gary Ridgeway was a newly arrived 12-year-old boy who would wet the bed, start fires, he couldn't get his shit together in school. We also discovered that beyond just his fantasies, Gary was having full-on hallucinations in which he would have sex with his mother, then cut her throat with a kitchen knife. He just really thought about it. Yeah, I bet I could have taken it.

“Yeah, I think he would be strong. Yeah, I was getting fucked up early. Yeah, I mean, dude,”

you were in New Jersey during those years, like when you were a small boy, right? Occasionally. Yeah, I'm summer in Elizabeth. Okay. Yeah, yeah, you just got close. All right. All right. And you only get a rational anguary about like sandwiches. No, my God, that's a fucking gift. I know. But let's do think we're confusing correlation with causation here that Tacoma Smelters effects

did not stop with Gary Ridgeway. Besides producing Ted Bundy, Washington State had murder rates in 1974 that were 30% higher than the rest of the nation. For the more Bundy in Ridgeway, it aren't the only infamous serial killers connected to a Smelter. A Smelter amitting tons of lead, zinc, cadmium, and arsenic was operating in El Paso, Texas at the same time that Richard

“Ramirez was born and raised in same said town. If you'll remember at the night stalker siblings,”

also displayed physical and mental difficulties that correspond with lead and arsenic poisoning. And Richard Ramirez's cousin was also an absolute psychopath who had murdered his way across the countryside of Vietnam during that particular conflict. Yes, but I just found Rochester Smelting and refining plan. Yeah, right earlier. I was in the middle of the fucking city. Yeah, they wrapped they literally do they mine and do aluminum smelting, do literally in the middle of the

city. Yep, most of these plants are right in the middle of the city. And the El Paso plant had numerous incidents in which a giant toxic clouds just settled over El Paso. And not just El Paso, you know, war as is right there. And war as has a capital of the world. Huge murder. Yes. Yes, so many murders and war as. So many women. You don't need the help. Yeah. You don't need to be ledmed. But that's the thing. If you look at it, it could be, this could be why. This could be a

big reason why war as was some but became such a violent place. Yeah. We should start outsourcing this. Two countries still. We have it. We did. Yeah, we do that. Yeah, we do that. And we guess what? And every single time we make a bunch of like zero colors in another country, guess what they do. Fucking a talk. I guess we're supposed to do something about. Like that's

the rap. They never stays over there. But we love coppers. We won't do it.

Now, the businesses produced in all this pollution. They knew that these industrial plants were absolutely ruining a generation of Americans. But they didn't see any reason to change just so long as the

black, or both. And also stuff like cancer, medical problems, who fucking gives a ship of the time. You even notice that you can't take it back to us. Fuck you, bitch. Yeah. And also these guys don't live anywhere near these places. No, I don't know what they're saying. No, no, no. In fact, once the EPA started finding these companies for their crimes against humanity, the companies would do a cost benefit analysis for every smelter. And if the cost of the fines

was cheaper than shutting down the smelter, they'd just pay the fines and continue the pollution. Yeah. The Al Paso smelter that produced Richard Ramirez, for example,

it's still made $10 million in profits after the company paid damages for the destruction caused.

Well, after they paid the destruction damages for the destruction it caused during one particular incident that was particularly bad. Yeah. But no smelter was worse than the one in Tacoma. That one wasn't shut down until 1993. And that was only after the EPA labelled

“it as the most polluted site in the entire country. Do you know how fucking awful you have to be”

to be the most polluted site in America? Fucking Christ. Pretty intense. This is fucking awful. It's a cost of doing business. And it's so insane. You see banks doing the same shit today. Oh, and they get sued for overdraft fees and stuff like that. It's like a slap on the wrist for the money they're actually fucking making. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Hey, I do. We're the Tacoma Smelters. And hey, you guys, you're going to put it at this

our first hit. You guys know it. It's a song about a girl born with one eye and three fingers.

Incomplete girl. Let's go, guys. But before we get back to Gary Ridgeway's story, the theories in murder land could also answer another lingering question when it comes to the serial killer phenomenon. Namely, why are men so grossly overrepresented in the serial killer population? Because dudes fucking rock. Dude, he's got a fucking do some shit. Sometimes, man. Sometimes, you've got to equalize. Yeah, man. These boots are made for walk and these hands are made for

strangling. Yeah. Dude, he's got to do some shit. Written by men with boots are made for walk. Yeah. All right. Lee has a wood. Oh, good for him. Yeah, wrote it for Nancy's and I'm sure. Oh, no. That kind of angry. No. Is Joeline written by a man? No, I think I believe that was written by Dallyparti and herself. I think so. Now, the easy answer here is to say, well, men are awful.

“That's that's why there's so many more. I choose the bear. Yeah. That's why there are so many”

more male serial killers and female serial killers. Just because we're more prone to violence, more prone to do these sorts of things. But the real answer is far more complicated. And it's rooted in actual silence. You don't care. See, early exposure to lead is particularly damaging to the prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the human brain that regulates aggression. According to some studies, that area of the brain is larger in men. And that same part receives far more

damage when men are exposed to high levels of lead as opposed to what happens to women's brains when they're exposed to the same chemicals. The damage to this subpart of the prefrontal cortex, author Caroline Frazier believes this might just explain why the vast majority of serial killers during the age of the serial killer were in deed mail. Well, much earlier saying a serial killer's made of a pile of problems. So being a man is just one of the the main triggers in there

that allows us because we're already more aggressive than women. It's the base. It's already there. So it's going to make sense that it would all accentuate and we would become even more violent than we already pre-disposed to. There's also, you know, all of time. Yeah, every one. I still believe in a matriarchal society, they would commit just as much war. It just might be a little kneader and a little bit, it's smell nicer. Oh, like a lady's bathroom. Yeah. Like it's still a

holocaust in there. Oh, but women's bathrooms, much worse than a man's bathroom. Well, it smells

“worse. It can. I think it depends on where you go. There's blood and fucking shit and fucking violence”

and hair and shit. And their god knows what happens in there. It's not blood. It's lining. Oh, he is great. So now that we've done all that covered. Great. Linings. Yeah. Linings are clay. Oh, no. I can eat him. I mean, that's it. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, the question is answered. Oh, yeah. There is like as far as like why do Sierra that's it. And it's why Sierra killing is going down in terms of that type of pathology and other types of violence and other

kind of phenomena, so sort of going to fill that gap. Yeah, which in terms of theirs, which we will eventually get to how social media is probably the lead poisoning of the next generation. Yeah, we'll just make sure it's straight up lead poisoning. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the things that now that the current administration has put in so many environmental deregulations,

we're never, of course, going to get back to the levels of smog and industrial pollution

Oh, yeah. There are consequences in 20 years because of, you know, what's happening right now.

“I wouldn't be surprised in any way whatsoever. Yeah. I'm sure there's already fucking consequences.”

100%. Well, now that we've got all that covered, let's return to the story of Gary Ridgeway.

Now, Gary finally turned up on the radar of the Green River Task Force in November of 1982,

but not because of the investigative prowess of the police. Instead, after killing well over a dozen women, Gary Ridgeway accidentally let one go, a young woman. What? That's a website. A young woman named Penny Bristo, so the Gary picked her up near Sea Tech airport. And after he offered her $20 for oral sex, she jokingly asked Gary if he was the Green River killer. He denied it and she believed him. So they drove to a secluded spot to engage in their business

transaction. Gary, however, could not get an erection, so he became so explosively angry that he knocked Penny Bristo to the ground and slammed her face in the dirt. He then wrapped his

“arm around her neck for a chokehold, but when Gary re-adjusted for a better grip, Penny broke”

free and ran off. Gary tried to follow, but his shorts were still around his ankles in anticipation of the blow job. So Gary tripped forward like a nightmarish cartoon character when he gave chase and he literally knocked his own dick in the dirt. By the time he gathered himself and had his shorts pulled up, Penny had already made it to a mobile home where she screamed for help. Recognizing this is a lost cause, Gary got back in his truck and drove away, while Penny

soon reported to the police that she had, in fact, encountered and survived the Green River killer. And it looks like bean bunny. He just blinks and blinks and blinks. He could be so much wind and has blinks. They each should have gotten caught so much earlier, just constantly. So many times. A Penny identified the Gary Ridgeway was driving a company vehicle from Kenworth trucking and had a police gotten around to the paint evidence by this point. They would have had Gary dead derights,

but they didn't. And they also didn't follow up on Penny's report in any meaningful way. See, police tracked Gary Ridgeway down. But Gary told the police, yet again, the heat only choked Penny because she'd bitten his penis. Penny, meanwhile, was so traumatized by the incident that she didn't move forward with assault charges. So, the police stopped the investigation into Gary Ridgeway without even arresting him. Like, I mean, they didn't even bring him into the

station for questioning. Like, they asked him questions at work. Like, it's a fucking episode of lawn order SVU. And I also think that it's an interesting industry to be in in which police officers can come in, ask you at work. Did you, are you the Green River killer? Did you kill these sex workers? And then you can use an actual defense of saying, no, but that sex worker bit my penis. So, I had a puncture in the face and their bosses are going to be like,

you know, Gary's innocent. Like, they're just like, yeah, well, that's Gary. He always does things

the wrong way. You know what I mean again? But the evidence clearly is at least first of all, definitely still assault. Yeah. No, no, no matter what, but also it's like, if you attacked her, because she bit your penis, why are you strangler from behind? Well, I mean, they didn't even think she has to ask the questions. She has to ask the questions about hole. Oh, I've never heard of but Tata, Tata. Well, Chinese tip was just one amongst hundreds. And for some reason,

not a single investigator got a sense that something was off when they were in Gary Ridgeway's presence.

“I think because he was visibly mentally handicapped and he was away, he was. Yeah, it's just”

he's so unassuming. They're all expecting some monster, you know, it's had some sort of like someone with huge teeth and like a gigantic man who's like on the verge of explosion at every

second in Gary Ridgeway's. I feel like if they had like Samuel Little was so homeless that

he just didn't even get picked up. We're like, I feel like it's like the op. They were expecting Samuel Little. Yeah, they were expecting this like taciturn, truly like next to silent Colossus with hands that are all fucking 12 inches long. Yeah, anti-social. Yes, huge, huge, rambling monster. Yeah, but no, use Rick Moran. But this could also be a commentary on just how incredibly violent everyday life really was for these people into coma. Cops were so overwhelmed with murders,

rapes and assaults that some of them like Gary Ridgeway could go under the radar using the same bitten penis excuse twice in as many years without anyone noticing. Let me see that penis. No, you like first thing. Yeah. Let me see that. Yeah, pull it out. Let's see. Let's see. I'll see the by-marks. Now Gary's an assuming demeanor was one thing. But Gary Ridgeway was actually

fingernails after a murder because the women always fought back and they usually managed to scratch his

skin, so the fingernails were cut to remove forensic evidence. The clothes of his victims mean while were donated to Goodwill stores, where they were permanently lost in a shuffle and sold to unsuspecting customers. How many times have we bought a shirt that came off a fucking recently murdered corpse? Many, many, many. I don't fit into women's clothes that will see. That's just nice about being a big fat guy is that bigger guys are less likely to be

“the murder victims. Normally we dial on their homes and are discovered by EMTs. That's why I got”

all the soup stains. Gary also began planting evidence murder sites by collecting cigarette bots and chewing gum from other locations. Then he would scatter the debris amongst his body.

See, he's getting smart. Yeah. Gary also took motel this. I mean, this next one is like it's a

dumb guy's idea of a smart idea. He took motel pamphlets and car rental agreements that he found at the airport, then he threw them around the body sites to make it look like the killer travel a lot. At times he would even leave behind a hairpick. So the cops would think that the killer was a big black pamphlet with a big Afro. We know that fucking worked. I mean, it sounds like with him doing this. Yeah, it's stupid. But it sounds like he was dealing

with stupid cops. So they were all just like, oh, whatever. Like they found it all and then they just deep. If you were going to say, he managed to evade for fucking decades. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The numbers don't lie. Yeah. And so it's not. You sound like a baseball in that sort of like that. The numbers don't lie on Kirby pocket. It's a double. It's a double. It's a

“pretty one. And that's what we're seeing in the sea tech area. If you feel three out of ten,”

you're making the whole fan. And thirty percent right there. That's a big, that was a big problem. So it's 1982 turned into 1983. Gary Ridgeway continued his murder spree by rotating his dump sites and memorizing every location for later use. If a body wasn't discovered at a certain site, Gary knew that it was safe to use again. And sometimes these sites would be mere miles from Gary's own home. He had like a photographic memory of the places because he'd be like

that stump wasn't there. That thing was over here. And because he would do it by like trees. Like civic trees. Yeah. I love the woods. He did. We're using these tactics. Gary killed six more women between early March and late April. And his continued murder spree would land him in the crosshairs of investigators yet again for the second time in less than six months. On April 30, 1983, Ridgeway murdered an 18 year old named Maria Malvar, but Maria's boyfriend who I suppose was

in on the sex work game. He saw her get into Ridgeway's truck. The boyfriend wrote down the make model and plate number, then followed Gary to his home where he wrote down the address. Maria of course disappeared completely that night. And her body wasn't found until Ridgeway finally led investigators to the dump site at Star Lake decades later. But when Maria seemingly fell off the face of the earth in 1983, her boyfriend gave all the information that

he collected on Gary Ridgeway to the police. This time Gary was hauled in for a full question and

answer session. But Gary's demeanor again did all the heavy lifting. Gary said he had never met

Maria Malvar. And he actually didn't know anything about sex workers at all because he didn't do that sort of thing. Now the police knew this was a lie because Gary's truck had been identified as belonging to a regular perveyor or prostitution by both sex workers and by police posing as sex workers. This is of course due to the fact that Gary did not kill every sex worker he picked up.

“That's how he'd get a good reputation on the scene. Not to mention he's on the record twice”

for getting this penis bit by sex workers. And the everybody in the scene, the only way they operate is by information shared amongst each other. But also, you know, him getting this penis bit. I don't know if the task force was even told about that. I don't know if it got to them. And it's not like they had a computer database where they can type in the and then Gary ridgeway and like everything that ever happened to them comes up instantly. You know,

if one guy doesn't tell another guy about it, he don't know about it. But Gary's denial was enough for the task force. And since they didn't have concrete evidence of foul play because this woman's body wasn't found until 2003. Gary was released back into the world. Although his name did remain on the list of possible suspects. Man, that's such a long time to think that like it's just hard for me to like wrap my head around like a piece of land not being touched

by a human for 20 years. Mm-hmm. Well, that's to be honest, that speaks to his knowledge of the area. It speaks to the fact that you go out there because it's like in the middle of really it's the middle of fucking nowhere. And it's between all these highways. It's like, it's gross place.

in Florida, you know, back in the day. And the the road that you drove down a thousand times

that you never stopped that once. Yeah. That's where my recent last time I killed the sex

worker, I just dumped your body off by the 250th celebration because no one's there. No one's there. And so it's just that area is open, open to the sky. Yeah. I feel like his only witness was like big foot. Yeah. Man, big foot seats are shit. And he's just like, I'm not saying anything. Now, after the murder of Maria Malvar, Gary Ridgeway decided to experiment with his next victim, who also just happened to be the first victim who was not also a sex worker.

Rather, Carolina and Christensen was just a woman who had decided to go home with Gary after meeting him and an establishment called the Red Barn Tavern. None of you all have a fucking excuse. None of you have an excuse to be single. You know, like it's like Gary was pulling women.

I was, that's what I'm saying. None of you got a fucking excuse. How he was able to pull women.

It's easy when you're a sociopath. Yeah. Yeah. It really, like that's the psychopath. Like having psychopathy means you're naturally. Yeah. Yeah. No for an answer. Yeah. Yeah. It really comes

“down to that. At least I think that's what it comes down to. Yeah. But Carol was in a hurry to get the”

deed done. And for some reason, being in a hurry to get the act over and done with this is one of the main things that triggered Gary's intense and all-consuming rage. It could actually make him decide in the moment that he's going to murder a sex worker. If she's like hurry up hurry up. I got to get back. I got to get back made him incredibly angry. Yeah. Yeah. You can see. We're like, let's be a patient a little bit. Sometimes things like that. Oh, you can see. Yeah. Get the ocean. Yeah.

Yeah. I get the motor run. I can see that that could make him crazy because that's what people probably said to him in fucking work. Yes. Wrong way. Taking this time. We're having to work over time to fix his job. And then he couldn't get it up. Yeah. Probably meant to talk a second to work it up so we can get it up. And if she wants to go right away, then he can't get it up.

“So that's what that girl Penny said. It was after he couldn't get it up. You know, they can't stay”

there all day. You know, waiting for that flag to come up the mask. That's always his lesson girls.

If you can't get it up, you just run. You just run. You don't know him. Yeah. If you don't got any money and time invested in him, you just get out of this practice the sentence. It's okay, sweetie. Yeah, great. More than it's okay. This is great. Wow. I'm honestly thanks. This is this is great. Now I can finally get her on and watch the last season of the bear. Wow. This is great. Wow. That is that. Oh, thank God you're can't. Well, after he was filled with rage,

Gary choked Maria to death, drank a bottle of lamb brusco wine and redressed her body before loading it back into his truck. Along with body though, Gary also brought the empty bottle some ground sausage and two freshly gutted trout. Once he dumped the body, he staged the scene, laying her corpse face up with a grocery bag over her head. He then left the gutted trout on top of the body, which Gary hoped would attract animals. The body was found five days later

by a family foraging for mushrooms. I imagine Eastern European immigrants. Sure. Here comes truffle. Well, they came across the corpse with the bag still over its head and its arms folded across the torso with ground sausage laying on top. The trout was still there as well, laying vertically across her throat while the wine bottle was also sitting on her lower torso. No animals had come. So Gary's surreal scene had remained intact. And of course,

“further it's baffled investigators. Why would you do this?”

"Salford or Daly was here. Let me take a look at this. God damn it. I knew for a fact that this was done by Chef Boyardee. Here's just some kind of chef tasting experience. I must, oh, we must find the guy. Where's the big hat? Where's that Swedish puppet?" I'm telling you, I did think we need to look into the country bear jamber league. And so Gary continued his murder spree by killing 10 more women over just the summer of 1983. Gary also got better at hiding the bodies,

because some of these victims weren't found until Gary led investigators to some of the secret dumping grounds decades later. Well, he said because they were special. There were certainly ones. He had ones that he grouped up that he did that he viewed us throw away ones. And then he had ones that he considered special. And he would put them way far away from everywhere else. And that's so those are the ones he would go visit time and time again. You know, he wasn't like the rest of the

country. He wasn't overtaken with E. T. Fever. Hey, he was, he was distracted. "What do you want? What are you doing with? It's just scary, Gary. I don't know Gary. I don't

that he wanted it all to come to an end, because he began trying to help investigators in his own

inimitable Gary Ridgeway style. While he couldn't bear to straight up turn himself in, he did write a grossly misspelled, barely legible letter to the Green River Task Force, which he titled "Going About Catching the GRK." "Going About Catching the GRK." "I had like a fucking no like a Harrison Keeler bit, like a little bit of a no like a little bit." "I'm like a little bit." "Oh, the play Hobbit Kit Pad is going about catching the GRK." So was it was BTK around at this point

“where they calling him BTK? Yeah, yeah, actually at this point. And he was inspired by him, right?”

Maybe, I mean, GRK, BTK, yeah, I mean, I think maybe he did like a, he liked an acronym. I just think he's just, God knows. He was a student of zero killers. Yeah, he was. Yeah. Well, in the letter, Gary told police to quote, "Take the pictures of customers with ladies, because, quote, if the lady died, he'd be the last one seen with her." He also encouraged the police to have quote, "Better police." Pass it to relations amongst many other suggestions.

Gary even told the police to show sex workers the locations where bodies have been found. Then ask them who else had taken them to that side. Because Gary had taken sex workers to murder sites, both before and after murders without killing them. But despite Gary's own best efforts helping the police catch him, the victims just kept coming. That was like the most useful

“serial killer letter of all time. It really was. It was giving them like tactics on here is how”

you catch me. This is me. I'm exactly how you do it. Yeah. But they also don't know. Of course that. If this is from him or not, they know now that it was from him. But back then, like, who fucking knows? Because when you read, it's, you can barely read it. You need an interpreter almost. By the end of 1983, Gary Ridgeway had murdered 26 girls and women in that year alone.

Not something like Gary Ridgeway never showed up on police radar ever again.

Questioning and clearing Gary, it became almost a routine to the police during Gary's most active period. Because Gary wouldn't indeed show up a third time before 1983's ends. Three times they talk to him. And one year. And November of that year. Gary murdered a girl named Kimberly Nelson. But a friend had seen Nelson get into Gary's truck. That friend thought that Gary was suspicious. So she had written down Gary's plate number. Nelson, of course, disappeared. So the friend went to

Detective Dave Ryker at the Green River Task Force with Gary's plate number. As you, the ever, she ever goes to David Gabberfield. Is there something got him out of your Joe kind of different? I. The information, however, wasn't used. Nor was Gary questioned.

According to Detective Dave Ryker, the police report was lost. So he never got it. Not his fault.

This was more gross in competence. Because this report, along with the one involving Maria Malvar, wouldn't have no doubt made Gary richway suspect number one. Two women that he'd been reported in one year, two women. But people had gone to the police and said like, hey, here's a girl, went with this guy. Now she's gone. Go look at him. And the idea of the pit police report being lost, that's not an excuse. They're also bad police work. Really bad. Yeah, the speaks of the general

competence of the entire squad. Also, wasn't his truck red? Like, wasn't like a different, like, not a common color. He had a few different trucks because he would use his truck. He would use his company truck. Yeah. He had a fair amount of vehicles that he could use. He had several pickups. He had an aqua blue green in another one. He was a primer colored. He had 97, 7, 4, to 4 and 50. I mean, we all own many cars throughout our lives. Yeah, and I once. My Subaru is now

blue. It was green. Mine was champagne. When the green River Task Force did get around a questioning Gary again in 1984, but only because he was still on the suspect list. When Gary was brought in, he fully agreed to take a lie detector test in which he was asked about every single known

“victim one by one. But again, Gary's demeanor one out. And I think this does tell you how Gary was”

able to convince the police again and again, there's nothing going on here because Gary, Ridgeway, beat the fucking machine. He passed the test and was there after no longer considered a top suspect. But this is also yet another reason why lie detectors have no place in police investigations. Well, you know what they're for? A real lady use a lie detector is like, like, in a magician show, you use it as a like, because you know as a police officer,

it doesn't hold up and court, but you can use it in a interrogation technique. We'll try to get a confession. That's the idea. Well, sure, but they used it here to try to try to see if Gary

they used the lie detector, which resulted in the deaths of dozens of women. I think that's because

of the change in police a procedure later on where this was in the day where like, no,

“this is a machine that can read your mind. Yeah, and then what happens if you have no mind to read?”

Yeah, you know, Gary Ridgeway. All right, nothing. Yeah, to start it through it off. To be as fair as possible in the midst of all this incompetence, the green River Task Force that identified 100 possible suspects by June of 1984, and while many men have been investigated, very few could be eliminated. See, the men who visited the sex workers of the strip were, let's say, the less desirable elements of society. They were mostly loners who didn't have

anyone who could verify their whereabouts. So corroborating their allies was a time-consuming

if not impossible task. Oh, you know, nobody? Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like my personality and everything I've ever done. You know, so Gary was just one name amongst dozens. And while 11 more bodies would be discovered between February and April of 1984, Ridgeway would take a break. And he would not kill again until October of 1986. Up until this point, he hasn't gone more than a month or two. Now, he's taken two and a half years off. It's a battle. As for the reasons why Gary paused,

tune in next week where we'll cover both the woman who stole Gary's cold little heart in addition to the mass murderer who attempted to save his own life by helping the cops in their search for the green river killer. Yeah, conclusion. Next week. I don't know about the other part. That's kind of fun. You're going to like it. I'm excited. On us, we'll go through even more.

“There are, you go finding his finding his confessions is fascinating. Yeah. I think if you look at the”

man talking, you could see way more of like, because it is. It's like, because he cry a lot too. It's like, you know, that thing too, he cry and he'd be super like, they just didn't think he'd be the man to kill 70 people. Had no idea. No, I, or they, yeah, they just, he was the boy least likely to. I say so. And I say straight up, that shows the one anybody pinion or what they say, they think you can do. Okay. Don't be limited by other people's thoughts of you. That's with

this whole series is about. We could take all kinds of lessons from this. Yes, welcome to Patreon. Go to Patreon.com. Slice by guest and left and you could go and you can listen to our show ad for you. We will see last stream in the live live every Tuesday 5 p.m. p.s.d. It's easy to do with on Patreon.com. Yeah. And don't forget to watch our faces live to see all of our, our wonderful, wider teeth. Our teeth are getting wider. I think, yeah. I think we're all

doing some good bleaching work. I've been watching him watch his on Netflix every week. I got an electric toothbrush. It's nice. Yeah. I'm excited about it. It makes me happy. It works. But it's pretty great. Yeah. We're hitting the road. This, all right. So next weekend, the last two JK Ultra shows are happening. Yes. Okay. We're going to be in Tulsa, Oklahoma. On the 17th, there's going to be Oklahoma City on the 18th. A lot of fun. We hope to sell those

shows out. If you weren't able to see JK Ultra live on the road, you have a chance during the 18 show, the Oklahoma City show where fucking put them on the old live stream. So if you go to LPO T L dot kids, we dot com that's K. I S W E go there and we are selling our live stream for you guys chat. It's going to be available for two weeks. So go check out JK Ultra before we finally put this baby to bed. Yeah. Big big. I'll be checking out and watch us. Bye. Bye. Yeah. And it'll be the last

time. You can see all three of us live for many, many months because we're going to be taking a break until next year on last podcast shows, Maui. Take a rest after the last split. Two and a half years. We've been touring almost constantly. Oh, yeah. But now we got to write a new show. Me and all big boy. We're going to be out there. They'll see new dates over on last podcast and the left dot com.

“Yeah. And if you want to come see me solo on the road, go to eddytunes.com where I fucking use that”

website for fucking good. He does. He does. Well, he'll say it never went. Oh, how gang.

Hell. Let's see. We mentioned Holland. We mentioned Holland. Oh, no, it's just kind of very exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jimmy Hendricks. Yeah. Yeah. Jimmy Hendricks in the more importantly, hail the band of gypsies. Yeah. Great apple. Well, it's not forget about Mitch Mitchell. Mitch Mitchell's phenomenal drummer, but I'm a band of gypsies fan. Ben gypsies is incredible. It's been incredible.