Creating Friendships That Matter with Jennifer Wallace

If you know what Tiddly wigs are, you're in the right show.

Be being an Instagram one in a perfectionist. So I'm like, I need to make a list about how I'm gonna add. I need to be the best admirer of all time. I want people to know it that they're in my life that they matter and I'm gonna make better the crap out of this. This is how we build trusting relationships in adulthood by creating the conditions for trust to develop.

Hey everybody, I'm Kim Holder-ness and I've been Holder-ness, welcome back, or welcome for the first time too.

Last lines, we're glad you're here. Yes, if you can remember the jingle, if you feel like chicken tonight, you're home. You want to do it? You, you, you have to sing it. You're gonna sing it together?

Yeah. Cause I don't want people to turn off. Okay, it's just I feel like chicken tonight. Chick, you know what?

“Honestly, I don't remember the exact note.”

Okay, can we play it? Yeah. Yeah, there it is, it was I knew. It was awesome. Each one's made with real vegetables and herbs, so you can make dishes like country, French chicken.

And chicken. So we just saw the sauce. Hey, you chicken tonight, simmer sauce from Ragu, yes chicken the next time. Is that still a thing? Like, do they still, no, do they don't sell that?

Do they? Well, it's just pouring sauce over chicken, which, hey, at a busy, that's like, that's all you do, but it just, it was not photographed. What color would you describe that sauce as? They just put a new sidewalk out in front of our house.

That was the color of sidewalk. That color, it was sidewalk. Yeah. Guys, what is chicken tonight was discontinued in the U.S. in 2019, however, it still remains active in the UK Australia, New Zealand, and Netherlands, and it's a long standing brand in Australia.

Okay. All right. So Aussies. We do have some listeners in those countries. If you've got some chicken tonight in your pantry, would you please take a picture of

it out of the camp? And let's not be judging here because I, we use those Kevin's meals a lot, and they,

basically, they give you the chicken and the sauce to put over it.

So it's basically fancy chicken tonight. So who are we? So I don't have a problem. I just maybe it was the actual commercial in the way that they, because color correction is the thing that we have now that they didn't have back then.

The color of the chicken tonight in that YouTube commercial was interesting. I will also say that now we have food stylist and things like that, and I think that's why.

“Yeah, that's why that one particular commercial.”

Your major major development. Okay. If you tuned in last week to our podcast, we were feeling our feelings. There was, it was, you know, we were going through some stuff, and we really appreciate your feedback.

We've been going through your voice mails, we've been going through your emails, and we really appreciate you reaching out. Today though, we are switching gears.

We have an amazing guest, Jennifer Wallace.

We are going to talk about mattering, but which to me is fascinating. And I first heard she was coming on, I was like, mattering. Oh, that'll be quick. Oh, my gosh. There's so many ways to think about this, and I have so many questions for her.

It's about deepening our connections with people, right? Because we all want to have a purpose in life. We all want to feel validated for what it is that we think is our purpose in life. And we got an interesting voice mail around that. So it's just perfect timing.

So let's go to the last line. [Music] Hey, my name's Annette, and I live in San Antonio, Texas. Anytime I hear that somebody is retiring or getting ready to retire, I ask them what they are going to do to feel empowered and to feel useful

because I am legitimately scared of sitting on the couch or the rest of my time after retirement. I want to have a purpose. Annette, thank you. Yes.

That is a very important question. There is evidence that cognitive decline speeds up after retirement. Like, if you don't use it, you lose it, it is an actual thing.

“Doesn't that make sense, so because like, what do you do after retirement?”

You sit and like watch, it's like if you do it the way that some people are like, you know what I'm going to do, I'm just going to hang out and sit by the ocean or whatever. And when you do that also sometimes you drink you drink you the wine a little bit more, and that doesn't help with your cognitive development. Like, if you're not, if there's not a reason to get up and put something on,

that's not your pajamas and have like a little bit of forward motion, that also scares me. I will say we have had some really bad weather here in South.

We had an ice storm.

We were semi retired in the last few days. We literally couldn't leave the house for a couple days. And I was, I, the depression hit. Like, just being, also I was horizontal for a lot of it. I was just laying down for a lot of it.

So I get that, but in Jennifer Wallace's new book, which we're going to deep dive into. There were a few quotes that kind of caught me. And one of them was an elderly man said the hardest part of aging was that no one relied on him anymore. Yeah.

And she also writes, "Mattering is like gravity unseen, but essential.

It holds us in place instead of us. When we feel we matter, we feel anchored. When it's missing, we begin to drift." Yeah.

“I mean, I think that's also why I feel like I've been kicked in the gut with low-leaving for college.”

Because I, That was part of your identity. And my purpose was to, you know, even though she was very self-sufficient, I mattered to somebody in their daily life and now I matter a little less. And these are all things we should talk to.

Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, you're fine. But I want to go back to a net and just tell her that I share your fear. Like, she said, I think she said she was terrified.

Yeah. I share that number one because of the cognitive decline because it runs in my family. And all of the people who I love, who have gotten Alzheimer's, have done it. After they've retired and have probably maybe not had the same kind of purpose that they should have. So, I'm determined to buck that trend.

Also, like, we have friends who have, like, really started. Like, I've seen them retire in a way that I think I want to be like. And I'll give a bunch of examples. I have an uncle who like started his own, whatever internet company is.

And he sold it for a lot of money.

“That's what happens when you do an internet.”

When you did an internet. And the Google was like in the year 2000, then he sold it when it was like, he had a website. That's essentially. Yeah. And then I got to call from a buddy of mine that was like, I think you're cousin or uncle maybe just

Uber drove me to the airport in Florida. And I was like, really? And then he told him basically, yeah, I'm retired. And I want to make connections and I want to get moving. So, a lot of people take on jobs that maybe they wouldn't have considered.

Before hand, where, like, maybe money is not really an object anymore. That's one example. We have a friend who like has been a store worker at anthropology. No, yeah. And she was like very fancy vice president and a fortune 100 company.

And now she works at anthropology. And I am very jealous of her because she gets great discounts.

And she always looks amazing.

Yeah. No, she does. And so I just want to say that that.

“And I think the fact that you're terrified about it means that you're going to be okay.”

Right. Because it means you're probably aware of it. And you're going to find something like that. I mean, you might become a world class tidilewinks player. Like who knows what it is.

But it's a direction that you can go in. What you didn't like the tidilewinks thing. If you know what tidilewinks are. You're in the right show. Okay.

Let's get to general. Yeah. And that book will be the subject of what we're about to talk about largely. And that book will be the subject of what we're about to talk about largely. And that book will be the subject of what we're about to talk about largely.

And that book will be the subject of what we're about to talk about largely. And that book will be the subject of what we're about to talk about. And that book will be the subject of what we're about to talk about. And that book will be the subject of what we're about to talk about. largely.

She is the founder of the Maddering Institute. There's an Institute on Maddering. I want to go there. Who's mission is to create cultures of maddering and workplaces and communities. And co-founder of the Maddering Movement, a nonprofit organization dedicated to creating

cultures of maddering in schools. Now, I love to research people by seeing like what other interviews they've done, what other podcasts they've done. So it is Google. So I've put it up and like a week ago, she was on Jen was on Oprah. So, but now she's on the lifeline.

Welcome. Jennifer Wallace. Thank you. I am happy to be here. Thanks for taking time away from your busy schedule.

I love that you formed a Maddering Institute. I love that your besties with Oprah now. And you know, Garden, like it's, it is, and now you're here. And now you're here on the floor. And our attic.

And so this is, we're in the presence of greatness. And I got to tell you, when prepping for this, like we have just been looking back and

forth at each other with like a million more questions, which means we're really looking forward to this.

Oh, well, I'm a huge fan. You're sweet to say this.

Okay.

So I was really, your book came to me like at a very good time.

I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here.

I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here.

I think a lot of the reasons why people are not connected to their impact by ...

we have so much input being thrown at us all day long and so much output being demanded

“of us that just to get through our to-do list, we often have to go on autopilot.”

And when we do that, we forget to close the loop. We forget to say to the friend, you know that advice you gave me last week.

I took it and here's what happened.

Yeah. Those little things are signals that we matter. So I want to get to Morda to Kim's like Kim's going to become your case study here shortly and which we love doing here because she's the most. Basically it's free therapy.

It's why I do this part. It is but you're also like so self-aware and so vulnerable and I love it. And then, you know, we'll do that. But like talking on the macro still and I want to geek out with you a bit here as well. You're talking about little ways to feel like you matter.

There are these like micro ways to feel like you matter. We live in a social media, create a world where people are crazy about getting a certain number of likes or views or comments. That to me doesn't seem as healthy as a direct non-digital contact. And I'm wondering if you've studied the difference between digital validation and in-person validation or one-to-one validation. Yeah.

What I call that digital validation that you're talking about is a false matter.

“Almost like I think of it like full's goal, remember during the gold rush, like the shiny thing that looked like gold but really wasn't.”

That's what social media from strangers, that kind of validation. It's a little bit like the junk food of mattering. Right? You could get a little bit of a hit, you could feel it, but it's not nourishing. It's not going to actually feed this need.

And the way we feed the need is by mattering to the people who matter to us. And that is often done in person and it's done in little moments. You know, would struck me in my interviewing, my research for the book, was when I would ask people, "Tell me a time when you felt like you mattered."

It was never because I went viral in a real or because I was toasted at a milestone birthday or I won an award at work.

It was the small moments that they talked about. It was somebody saving a seat for them at a dinner or somebody coming over with a pot of soup when they were sick. These small moments are the moments that actually feed our mattering. And when we were all growing up, I'm older than you, a little bit. In the '70s and early '80s, we had these mattering signals paked into our daily lives.

So we knew our neighbors, we relied on them, they relied on us. We had family that lived nearby. We belonged to religious faiths. We're every weekend. We were fed this idea of unconditional love and value by a greater God.

We belonged to bowling leagues. We had these moments where every day we felt like we mattered to the people around us. Robert Putnam, who's this great sociologist at Harvard wrote a fabulous book called Bowling Alone, which has tracked over the decades how we have stopped being parts daily parts of each other's lives. And we are now being these one family villages in our homes.

And what happens when we do that is that we lose these critical signals.

We lose the signals on a daily basis, a neighbor that relies on us. The tells us we're needed, you know, heading to church or heading to a synagogue or heading to a religious institution. And getting the message that even with your flaws, even with your mistakes, you are still lovable, you are still loved. We've replaced that with, like you pointed out, kind of the junk food of mattering. And it doesn't work, it doesn't fill us.

“And that's why I think so many people are struggling with a lack of meaning and purpose in their lives.”

There's all those written person things that she was talking about back in the 70s and 80s. It was all in person. I think that's honestly we have had the gift to be able to do a couple book tours. And I think that's why I like those so much is because we're meeting people and person. And I mean, I guess it's ego too, but you actually get to see and hear from the kids.

And those are more impactful than me than although I love the comments on a video, the comments on a video. Yeah, so we put out a video about how horrible the South is at snow a couple of weeks ago. It got like 20 million views in a day. And that, like, I felt good about that. I'm like, oh, we're doing our job, right? But my favorite part of that day was I went to dinner with a buddy of mine.

And afterwards, I didn't even know men do this. He was like, great time hanging. He sent me a text saying, like, great time hanging with you. And I was like, well, that was the highlight of my day. I mean, he's, otherwise he's in total.

But, um, oh, I know he's talking about this.

This is how we talk about our buddies. No, he's the best.

But like, it was so nice. And I'm like sitting here thinking about it while she's talking about it. That moment mattered more. Yeah, I did. Okay. More on this after these words.

This is going to wind a little bit. So there's a quote here. And from your book, I'll read, there's a growing tendency in our culture to treat Responsibility to others as an inconvenience, an obligation to dodge or delegate. And trying to guard against burnout or preserve autonomy, we can begin to see every task as a threat, like one more thing to manage rather than a sign that we matter.

Hear me out. I want to, and I've been craving this even before I read your book was I want, I want to be the type of person who lets people, like, to write the note that says, I love hanging out with you. That remembers your birthday and like, bring soup to neighbors.

Like, I want to be that person. And I've been craving that. I'm also a little bit of a perfectionist. So if the soup isn't perfect, if the note, if the stationary isn't right, if I don't have the right words, I just don't. And then it kind of weighs on my to-do list.

It's like, help me kick that from my brain. Like, it shouldn't just be a thing on the to-do list. You are not alone in struggling with perfectionism today. There's this wonderful research by a researcher named Tom Current, who has been tracking over time the rise in what he calls socially prescribed

perfectionism.

“This is the idea that society is sending you signals that you need to be perfect”

to be loved, to be valued. Lots of reasons for that. Lots of people making money off of sending us those signals. And so what I would say to you is to reflect on that as you're doing right now.

You know, first we have to really come to terms with the messages that we are hearing

and that we have internalized. And I certainly have come. I have internalized those messages. And over the last seven years, I have picked them apart. So that I am not, what's the word I'm looking for?

It's not, it's not just a part of my being. When I hear those messages coming out, I stop. And I say, oh no, no, no, that's not where my worth is. That's not where my value is.

“So first you have to do that exercise in hearing the messages in our society.”

Then you can then you can lean on this other research called the beautiful mess effect, which is the idea that, you know, we all have kind of messy lives.

You know, our soup doesn't always come out perfectly.

Our stationary isn't always engraved. And that actually that authenticity brings people closer to us. That it makes us that little vulnerability that we're not perfect is what connects us. So I, in my head, what I think about is if you've ever tried to put a sticker on a really shiny surface, it doesn't stay stuck.

It needs a little bit of the grit to really stay. So what I would say to you is lean in, lean in to the imperfection, lean in model it. But model having people over for dinner in your kitchen and the house not being picture perfect, not saying let them in to a super messy life. But reveal that, feel like a leader, be somebody who leads in that way.

I have lots of friends who deliberately invite people into their homes when it's not perfect, because they feel like that's a deeper connection to show you my life, my messy life to invite you into it. So Jenny, you know it's fascinating. Him sort of the opposite of everyone else on the planet on social media and on like everything that we do, she's very comfortable being imperfect and imperfect and being like a beautiful mess.

That's like most of our content. And I think most people, they want to look perfect on that part.

“But in real life, I think your, your any a gram one takes over probably more in real life is what you're saying.”

Yeah, yeah, and it stops me from reaching out to people like it stops me. Like, oh, you know, I should call Hillary up, but I only have five minutes. Like, I, it wouldn't be the perfect conversation. It wouldn't be the perfect conversation. Perfect link, yeah.

You know, so it stops me and I, I just need to get over that quite honestly. I think you do and I think you could be kind of a leader in getting over that. You could be the person that calls Hillary and says, "Do you have five minutes? I only have five minutes, but I just want to hear your voice." So just, right? Just kind of framing it.

I want, I want you guys to come over for dinner, but I am so slammed with work. The house is not going to be perfect and the food might not be great, but I promise I'll be fun. And that's going to be more fun.

That's like so much more fun.

Yes.

There was a couple stories, you were a story in particular, you told where a woman, her, her mom passes

and like, that she starts to non-profit.

“And I think that's part of the way that I feel too.”

It's like, I want to be somebody who matters to people. We all do, but I don't have time to start a non-profit. So like, what are some, it doesn't need to be that I know, but what are some small ways that we can show up and matter? Well, I would say the number one way is to be a friend who commits to things.

So it is, if you say you're going to show up for a friend, if you're going to meet for coffee, unless you are sick, do not cancel. We live, and I write about this in the book of flaking, flake culture, where people, I think, coming out of COVID are just way too comfortable.

Can't sign. Sorry, just not up for it tonight, had a long day at work. No, sorry, not okay. Not okay.

So I would say the number one thing for anyone out there who wants to be a better friend,

build a deeper relationship, is to show up when you say you're going to show up. That's number one. Number two, and this takes no time. If you ever friend, let's say her mother is going in for surgery on Thursday. Mark it in your calendar.

We're so busy. A lot of why we don't make people feel like they matter, is simply because we're busy. So mark it into your calendar. Follow up on a text with Lisa about her mom on Thursday.

That's it. The simple, that will take you 15 seconds and it will send the signal to your friend that they are a priority in your mind. So there are little ways of doing that, right? It's sending the text if it weren't for you.

It's showing up and not being the friend that doesn't cancel.

Here's what I will tell you about being that friend.

Because this is something that I really committed to about 10 years ago when I was making a new friendship. And this woman was this way with me. She was, um, it was extraordinary. Like, would never cancel a plan. Always showed up, always followed up.

And I was like, this is how we build trusting relationships in adulthood. Yeah. By creating the conditions for trust to develop. And the number one way to create that condition is to do what you say you're going to do. So everything you're saying is so simple.

But I'm like, I want those of you watching or listening. Raise your hand if you've flaked on someone recently. I do need to not raise your hand. No, she didn't. Like that hit hard.

“But I think I'm like seeing it out loud is going to make me better at it.”

Um, but I've like, I've got to get better at that. I will say that it's like widely known in my friend group Friday night specifically, like when the bra's off at like 430, like it doesn't go back on. There's something about Friday night. I just need to be inside.

That's fine. My daughters or my friend, my dear friend's daughter left for a study abroad program. She's not going to see her for like five months. She's like, I need to go out. So I did, I left the house last Friday.

She goes, I know this is big for you Kim. But she's like, I just got to get up before the ice storm. Like, like, let's go, you know, divert my mind. So I was like, but I was so happy I went. Yeah.

Gender wise do men suck at this more than women? I would say gender wise. Um, and I do think this is shifting. But gender wise women are socialized to feel valued through our relationships, which is why when girlfriends have a rupture,

it can feel so intense because so much of our worth is when men is wrapped up in our relationships and being good in relationships. I would say for men on average, a lot of their worth comes from the workplace, uh, feeling valued because they are adding value at work. Um, again, these are averages.

I do think that's shifting.

“I think men are fighting against the friendship recession,”

which is, you know, what's going on, particularly in, in male lives, but also in female lives. I think there is this friendship recession that all of us are experiencing. And the recession in the way I think about it is that there's been this hollowing out of relationships. And so, you know, when you were talking about your friend following up after meeting for dinner,

I have a dear friend who does that. She's been my friend now for 30 years. And she gave me the habit of doing that because when you leave a dinner right where you, you feel warm and cozy, you're like, did they feel that too? Did they feel, and to have somebody send the follow-up text that said,

yeah, I felt that too, like that was so great. Thank you for this. It is 30 seconds, but it is a way of just underscoring you matter to me. That dinner matter to me. And I love that. And I'm going to tell next time I go to dinner with him.

I'm going to tell my felt warm and cozy. And, like, he's going to be, he's going to have to deal with it. So, no, I love that. So, Jenny, I want to go back to one thing he said. He said men attach their values to work more than women.

So, obviously, this is a subjective thing.

Different people attach different values to their matter and to their worth.

What happens if you're in a relationship or in a social situation

“where what matters to you is in direct conflict with what matters to the other person?”

Can you think of an example? Yes, the world that we live in right now. I think people are feeling like they matter and that they're right in doing something and that they're crusading toward a world that fits in whatever their image is. And they're on one side of the street and there's other people on a completely different side of the street right now.

I guess I'm talking a little about politics. Yeah, so, you know, what we know from the research on, on mattering is that when you feel like you matter, you show up to the world in positive ways. You contribute, you engage in positive ways. When you are chronically made to feel like you don't matter,

you can, with trob, become anxious to press. I turn to substances to try to alleviate the pain.

I have a, I am getting to your question just one second.

I have a study in there in the book about suicidal men. And the two words that they used to describe their suffering was useless and worthless. Or, if you are feeling like your voice isn't being heard that you don't matter that you're not being seen, you can act out online attacks, road rage, political extremes can be that way. But then there's also a third way of expressing this need and getting this need met.

And it is collectively two raised voices together. And so, you know, I don't have an answer, but what I do have is that this is a deep human need. And people on both sides of the aisle are feeling like they are voice isn't being heard.

And again, I don't have an answer for you, but what I would say and what I try to do in my own life is to imagine everyone I meet,

even people whose views I don't agree with, wearing an invisible sign around their neck saying, "Tell me, do I matter?" And we can answer that without agreeing with them, but with compassion, with kindness instead of judgment. And what I hope is that we are getting to such a breaking point right now that what I am hoping is we will start to see each other in the suffering that we are seeing on a global level, not just nationally. And we are seeing this globally. People rising up and saying, "I need my voice heard."

Yeah. I'm going to validate you and say that you did a really good job answering that question. Because the invisible sign is wonderful.

“The ability to be at Thanksgiving table or at like a family table and still remember that person does have things that they want to matter and that you can still validate them in some way.”

And so I think that's-- Because I contact the warmth. Yeah. Even if you don't want to get engaged because it's too heated and you're too, it's too activating for you. Just to meet them as a human.

That's really good. Okay. Thanks for letting me ask that. I just went back. I just put the truck back in front of-- Well, we can't ignore what's happening in our world right now. And when I was reading your book and the feelings, especially children and teens when they feel like they don't matter, I mean my brain felt the OCD. Like I kind of spiral on like what's the worst thing that could happen sometimes.

Like, oh, this is why teens-- some teens are probably acting out, probably committing crimes. I mean, I go straight to like school shootings and stuff like that.

“What can we do to help our kids know that they matter?”

Yeah. Well, it is so when you think about mattering, it's the earliest of days when children are born where they are looking for signs that they matter. So this need matters throughout the lifespan. When you are in adolescence and developing a sense of self, you are looking for those signals. Those signals really matter. Do I matter only when I achieve? Do I matter only when I look a certain way? Do I matter only when I behave a certain way?

So in other words, is my value contingent on how I perform in the world? Or is my value unconditional? And our kids are saturated with messages that say, oh no, it's very conditional. And all of your whole worth is conditional. So I've really, as someone who's been researching this for seven years, have come to the conclusion that parents in our modern world play a unique role. And that is to convince our children of their worth outside of a system that tells them they constantly have to prove.

You had a quote in there that kind of took my breath away. There was a girl who said that she felt like she mattered when her GPA was up and her weight was down.

I was like, I just want to know the language specific things we can do becaus...

I think it's a constant conversation. I think it is. There's one woman I interviewed in California had this great thing that she used to do with her kids.

When they would come home having bomb to test or gotten rejected by a friend or didn't make a team she'd reach into her wallet.

“And she would grab whatever bill she had. And she would hold it up and say to her kids, how much is this worth?”

Let's say it's a $20 bill. They'd say 20 and she'd bring it up. She'd put it on the floor dirty it dramatically put it in a glass of water. And then she would hold up a dirty wrinkled soggy bill and she would say, now what's it worth?

Like this $20 bill, your worth doesn't change. If you feel knocked down, dragged, soggy inside, your value is your value no matter what.

And so it's something that I've learned in the last seven years and I kind of have a mantra that I say to myself. And that is, I am not my failures and I am not my successes. And it keeps me very, very steady. It keeps me very, very steady.

“So I am, I am, I am not my failures. I am not my stepbacks. And how do I, somebody asked me this last night, how do you maintain that mantra?”

You maintain that mantra because you have people in your life that you have led in who know you for who you are deep inside and they remind you when you are feeling down. Yeah, you can't just remind yourself of your unconditional worth. Yes, you need to believe it, but then you need people in your life that you've led in who really see the true you that you can open up to when you're struggling and who will remind you of your unconditional worth. So in our 40s and 50s sometimes, I don't know why it hits like that.

Maybe it's the kids leaving. Maybe it's a, you know, transition in a job. I think a lot of my friends, the people in my life were all starting a question like how we matter. How we mattered 10 years ago is very different than how we matter now. That's normal, I'm assuming. So normal. So mattering matters throughout the lifespan and it is most fragile during life transitions.

“So going to college, graduating college, changing jobs, relocating, the loss of a loved one, all of these things aging retirement, all of these empty nesting, all of these things can shake our sense of mattering.”

And that is because the roles that used to provide us with those signals that we mattered change the way we used to add value changes. So I have, I have a son who's in college, I have a daughter who's about who's the senior about to leave. And my youngest is a sophomore. And so yes, even though I am studying mattering, my mattering still took a hit. But what I did because I was studying this, I now know what to do to kind of steady myself through these transitions. And so what I started doing is what right before my son was leaving for college, I talked to friends who had gone through it.

So I looked for role models who are people who have gone through this transition that I'm facing and come out the other side. Take them for lunch, take them for whatever talk about it, let them be kind of your coach through this transition. And then, and I wish I had had this advice when my husband and I relocated to London when we were newly married. And I left my job at 60 minutes left my best friends left my family and all of a sudden overnight my sense of mattering collapsed. Back then, 25 years ago, I didn't know what was happening. Instead, I just personalized it and said, wow, I am really bad at coping with change. I just assumed that there was something wrong with me.

But what I'm mattering does is it, it helps you zoom out and put into context and say, of course you're struggling transitions are tricky.

And so just knowing that you're not the first one in the last one to go through it and harnessing the power of invitation.

So that means accepting invitations from people and also issuing them. I interviewed a woman in the book who went through a horrible divorce. And she was complaining to her therapist that her social life had really dropped down to zero. People weren't inviting her because she was a fifth wheel. And so her therapist said to her, well, then you start inviting people into your home. You start hosting dinner parties. And so really the takeaway for all of us is that we have agency. We don't have to wait to matter again. We can find new ways to matter.

It's the way that you described London.

But at the same time, I was sort of spacing out because he is ADHD. And was thinking about like, what was my point like when I felt like I mattered the least.

And you're right, Jenny. It was work related. It was like I was. I got in what I thought was my dream job about 20 years ago at ESPN. And then I was so bad at it. In their opinion that they paid me for a year and a half. The same amount just not to be on their TV screen. They were like, you are really flaky. Actually, could I stick up for you for a second or something? What happened? You were hired by ABC Sports. Did you like video essays? True. ESPN does not do video essays. No, they want me to talk like this.

They bought ABC Sports. So they're like, yeah, you don't fit here. But they don't say like, you're sort of your style does not work here.

“I think you were bad. No, but I was just sitting in a room by myself while you went off to work, making more money than you're still making more money than me.”

Which is not its own problem. But it was a guarantee contract.

But just really having this crisis that you're talking about. And what got me out of it, I didn't have any of the tools you asked me for the blessing that got me out of it was the birth of our daughter who gave me something to do in some way to matter. Well, Kim went off to work. I got to be the man. And that, that solved it for me. But before that, there was a lot of darkness. So that's my story. You told us yours. Like, do you, can you think of a time when you had the biggest struggle over this?

More on this after these words. I think I was rocked by my daughter leaving one of the thoughts. I couldn't be now. And I was very prepared for it. I did all the things you said. Like, I went out to get lunch with friends. I might give me the road map. And they're like, oh, it's really hard. It sucks. I'm strong. Like, I am really, I have a job. I've had this other child at home. Like, what are you talking about?

I had, it, it rocked me. And I was not expecting that because I was like, wait a second. Like, right now, I should be going to watch her play.

And a tennis match right now, I should be making dinner because she's coming home late from this. Like, I, like, even just I tried it still to this day. Like, Insta Carter stuff. Like, there's a big storm where she went to school. And I was trying to like, Insta Carter thinks she's like, Mom, I'm good. I don't need it. I'm good. I'm like, oh, but just like, let me, let me make sure you have flashlights and stuff.

“But she's good. So I think that it's what my job was as a mom to make sure she was good, but also like kicked me in the teeth.”

And it's still, you're still sort of in that. Like, yeah. Yeah. So I just like thrust that all into my child, my sophomore in high school. What is still here? I get it. I get it. We went through it, too. I mean, my husband, I think. We, he was mourning for years leading up to our oldest going. Like literally every time my oldest would go out the door senior year. We would both walk into the door. That's like a little tradition that we have in our house. It's, we live in an apartment. So it's not a long walk.

We, we walk each other to the door. And we would just, he'd leave the elevator would close and my husband would like lean against the door so dramatically. He's like, I can, I can't. And you know, there's, there's such a wonderful, you know, way that we have parented our children, this our generation, that we have built these really deep meaningful relationships with them. And I'll tell you the way that I'm looking at it. And I'm not saying I didn't go through it. It was grief. I mean, when, when he left, there was real grief, but it's also exciting to see their wings working.

You don't know when you send them out into the world, are the wings going to work. And anyway, it to me, I'm getting a lot of, mattering through seeing 18 years of investment, pay off.

“I think that's where I am. I think that's how I feel. Like every time everyone's like, do you miss your daughter? I'm like, yeah, but she's kicking ass.”

So that actually does make me feel like I'm at or more, because it's all I'm dull because of us, or it's partially because of us. So we did some things to help her. And so that does give me, like, that she's, so right, like that, and maybe there's two different, maybe I'm her and you're her husband. Yeah. And we'll say to the parents, whose, whose children and there's a lot of kids who are now in a failure to launch, right? There's a lot of college kids and 20 year old struggling. And just to any parent out there who was hearing this and saying, oh my God, did I not matter?

Did I not do it right? Absolutely not. Not what we're saying right here. And, but there are ways to set your struggling child up to help them matter. I have a story in the book of a wonderful guy who was not able to get a job and was getting depressed

Was living in his parents' home after college, stopped applying for jobs beca...

And next door neighbor came over who was going through chemo treatments and knocked on the door and said, would you be willing to drive me to my doctor's appointments? I'll pay you.

And, and the kid, the young man, said yes, just to get his parents off his back and also to make a little cash. And what he realized in doing that was how much he was needed. And he found himself when she was really struggling with nausea and he saw it and he had to help her into the car.

“There was like a turning point moment when he dropped off and he said, I'm going to go to the pharmacy, this is like holistic pharmacy and ask him, what do you have for people going through chemo?”

And the mattering set him back. So while it's very hard to watch our kids struggle and we cannot make them matter as much as we want to, right?

That's a felt experience. There are things we can do to try to help our kids be on a path where they could start to feel valued again.

And that is to depend on them to really know that they are dependent on by others. Well, I loved your book. It really hasn't inspired me. I be being in a grand one and a perfectionist. I'm like, I need to make a list about how I'm kind of bad. I need to be the best, I'm a murderer of all the time. I want people to know that they're in my life that they matter and I'm going to make sure they're crap out of this. But instead, I have to read out beautiful myths. Yeah, I'm going to just, I'm going to start simple texts and friends. I just like like a dear friend just lost her dad. I'm going to go to the story and get a card.

Like I'm going to, I'm going to, this is. Yep, and I am not going to flake.

“I'm going to try, I think this is really like you, one of the biggest nuggets I got out of what you said was that men attach mattering to work.”

I'm going to try to shift away from that. If I can, like, just start. It's going to take time, right? I don't think I can do it instantly. But I'm going to try to begin that shift because, are you going to be younger? And it's pretty soon. I'm going to have to matter in some other way. Yeah, um, he can I ask you a question that is nothing to do with your book because this is laugh lines and we mostly, we mostly talk about like the 90s and growing up and I love that you mentioned that you kind of grew up in a similar time as us.

If you did grew up in a similar time as us, how many other friends did you have named Jennifer? So many. Yeah. And I'm Kimberly. So it was only, it was exclusive for Jennifer or Kimberly. There's a lot of Jennifer's rights that are right around our age.

“Yes. And, and I remember, you know, when I was growing up, like feeling such a sense of identity that my name was Jenny with an IEEE.”

And so no, I was different than the other Jenny's, like it's so funny, right? Yeah. Maybe this is why you've become an expert on mattering because there was so many Jennifer's. Jenny with an IEEE, where can people find you and your work? So you can follow me on Instagram at Jennifer Burhani Wallace or I have a newsletter that I put out one month with tips on, on mattering.

And that's it, Jennifer. Be Wallace.com. And of course you. Yeah, in your books, which have been amazing. Well, we thank you so much for joining us today.

You matter. You matter. You, you've inspired us. Thank you so much. Thank you. And you had so much value in a, in a world where it could feel very noisy and sad. You, you lift us. So thank you. That matters. Thank you. Love making a new friend. Right? Yeah. Do you feel like I feel like I don't know if we have her phone number, but we should probably text her right now and tell her that we really enjoyed that chat because that's what you're supposed to do with her at that. Well, I have to say before when her book went on sale and I saw sort of the theme of it. I got it right away.

And I was like, spread reddit because it is something in my life. I've been craving. Trying to be the person to let people know they matter. I don't feel like I do a good job of like I'll think about people like, oh, I love that person so much. But then I never actually send the text or send the card. Yeah. Like I get so bogged down in life that those are the important things that I should really prioritize. Good in the moment. I'm a good height man. Like if I'm there, I'll usually pump people up and tell them like the good that I see in them.

But it's just a matter of getting to that point and making sure I make my appointments and then like to follow up. It's the things. It's like the simple things that I might not be doing. That well. So I took a lot out of that. You want to hear some some nuggets?

Yeah.

We're going to do pins, morsels of. Oh, no. So here's a deal. If you're new to this podcast, we had pens three piece nuggets and we turned him into a chicken nugget.

“He would give you the three nuggets of wisdom. He would learn from this podcast, right?”

And then we're hoping for a nugs sponsor. Nugs just left us high and dry. We turn me into a nugget and no sponsors. Right. So now that I've been basically eating a cookie cake per week. Specifically a happy birthday cake when it's not your birthday. When it's my birthday, you're like, maybe it's like a cookie and it's a so Amory put some. Put some suggestions for the title of this segment. Good.

Crumbs of wisdom. Okay. Crumbs of wisdom. Sweet takeaways. I sort of like that. Bites of hope.

But they're not always hopeful the thing then comes up. If it's a bite. So hold on a few good crumbs.

We're getting there. Okay. Or morsels for life. These are all great. Good job. Bites for hopes is I'm just imagining someone sent a fundraiser. No. It sounds like it sounds like a phoenix. I think crumbs of wisdom might have been the best one. Okay. Here are pens top three crumbs of wisdom. And this is stuff. This is really honestly. These are Jenny's crumbs that we. Yes. Of wisdom. Number one. The invisible name tag. She says anytime she talks to someone.

She tries to imagine that there's an invisible name tag that they're wearing that says hi. I have things that I value I need to matter.

“And just remember that. Like look at the person and almost like see that name tag and tell me how I matter. Yeah. Exactly. Number two. Show up for lunch dates and for things that you say you're going to do and don't flake.”

Did you say there was a flaking epidemic or something like that? That really hit me. Yeah. And so I do worse. I don't. I'm pretty honest about. If I'm going to go or not, I just don't. I'll just say like nah, not going to do it. Like I need to actually say I'm going to say you're going to do it and then you need to do it. Right. Honestly, I was really good all year because I wanted to kind of a goal of mine was to say yes more to things and I was good. And then I got really cold you guys. I'm sorry. We live in an ice kingdom right now. And so just like doing anything. Those are special extenduating circumstances. If you can't drive safely somewhere. I don't think that Jenny's going to ding you for that.

Okay. So in our number three, Chrom of Wisdom, women attach mattering to relationships and family, men tend to do it more toward work. It makes sense. It does. Like that's a traditional look. I guess on the world on things that you're expected to do as a person traditionally. But I needed to hear her say that and attach it to mattering in that specific word to know that I need to shift that a little bit. Well, Kim's one piece, Nug, Kim's cookie of sweetness of takeaway of whatever show up, messy beautiful mess.

“Yeah, show up. You've got a cookie in your face now, don't you?”

I hope I've been turned into a cookie. I just pen only get the cookie. I show up as I really am online. You're right. Like I don't feel any hesitation about being a little messy without makeup online. But in person, I don't know why I feel like I have to be perfect.

No, weird. That just kind of occurred to me while we were talking. I'll show up without makeup online. Yeah. Easy peasy in stories all the time. I would never go to target without makeup.

Yeah. Why? Like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't care about either of those things. I have an Instagram page called Double Chin Pence to Graham where I only take pictures that are disgusting looking of my face. It is so, you know what, are you with this world needs pen? It needs more double chin pictures in you. If you got, and you have a lot of followers there. I know it's weird and I don't post very much. It's just like, honestly, there's only so much you can do.

And true. I think, could we make this a challenge? You know what I also love to do is to challenge my husband to do things that doesn't involve me. Yeah. It's awesome. Thanks. But I feel like we could really, you could be a chin fluencer. I already am a chin fluencer. Maybe, oh, there was a shaving company that reached out to you and we're like trying to figure out a way. Maybe it's on the double chin. Yeah. Maybe you could a brand deal. I don't know. But like, it's. Shave those chin.

But you don't want to, you know, you shave like this. If you try to shave like this, there's going to be a lot of cuts. Sorry, let me give it my go. He's a chin fluencer. You guys, if you're listening to this, you matter. You matter. You matter. And I challenge you to let people in your life know that they matter.

So, and that's what I'm going to do too.

I'm proud.

I mean, I'm going to tell each other that we matter more often.

Yes. Okay. I try to because I know that I am an acts of service girl.

“That's how I, that's how I receive love. You're a physical touch kind of guy.”

So, you and I have a different love language, but you really do a good job of like you got gas in my car before the ice storm. And I was like, that nobody has shown me love like that. And so, um, yes, I need to, I need to tell you more. I'm not telling, I'm not saying you need to. I'm saying do we need to do that because that's. What is this? This is how we get down. Just like this.

It's how we do it. It's how we high five. Just that. Okay. I mean, you're at this. Yep. The last line is written and produced by Kim Holderness.

Penn Holderness and Anne Marie Tapki with original music by Penn Holderness. I want to tell each of those people why they matter to me. Really quickly, Kim, you are a wonderful mother to our children. And you make my heart flutter every day and you make me want to be a better person.

“And Anne Marie, you are one of the, one of the most loyal people I've ever met and seeing that both as a friend and as an employee makes me just very proud to call you someone who we work with.”

It is film that it in live produced by Sam Allen Sam.

You are, to me, you matter to me because sometimes you provide a perspective that I never thought of and you provide it with a lot of love and patience and caring.

Thank you, you mattered to me for that. And hosted by Acast, Acast, you mattered to us because of all the ads that you might be hearing when you're on the audio podcast. As always, we'd love to hear from you and you matter to me. So you do, you might like you guys listen. Nobody hear me. We read the comments. Some people send us letters.

And I love hearing your stories about life and I love hearing like how we're connected. So like, we, we say something and then you tell me and Kim something and we feel this like great connection of someone we've never met before and that really, that makes you matter. We love to hear from you. Please write to us at [email protected] email you mattered to me because I need you to know what's going on in the world or leave us a voice mail ad. Three, two, three, three, six, four, three, nine, two, nine.

Voice mail is mattered to me. Now it, now you're over you. They know, but I just want to tell you guys when you leave a voice mail, we can hear your voice. I know, I love a voice mail. Yeah.

It matters to me. Yeah. I called earlier. Yeah. This was like, I feel lighter.

Yeah. That was, I'm sorry, that was the longest credits ever. That is important. Yeah. We do that.

We'll talk to you soon in the last lines. Bye.

“Sam, do you have any information over there on Tiddly Winks?”

Was that what you're working on over there? Any time I ask your questions, Sam hunches over her laptop. I'm like, oh, good. Because Sam's my ask jeeps. This is the world Tiddly Winks championship in Cambridge, England.

So they're like, you're on a felt table. What is this? This is Tiddly Winks. And you've got to pop it. It's like quarters.

Yeah. Oh, you, yeah. Okay. So use one piece of plastic to, to hit another piece of plastic into it. Yeah.

And the table has to be soft. The table, see how the tables, like a little bit soft.

And I've never seen Tiddly Winks in my life.

It is a sober quarters. Yeah. I mean, you don't have to be sober to play, but it's quarters. It's quarters. Oh man.

Transcript

If you know what Tiddly wigs are, you're in the right show.

We had an ice storm.

Okay.

I think a lot of the reasons why people are not connected to their impact by ...

But, um, oh, I know he's talking about this.

That's like so much more fun.

So, obviously, this is a subjective thing.

I was like, I just want to know the language specific things we can do becaus...

It's the way that you described London.

Was living in his parents' home after college, stopped applying for jobs beca...

Yeah.

So, and that's what I'm going to do too.

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